:00:00. > :00:08.Hello and welcome to Free Speech. The show which makes your voice
:00:09. > :00:26.heard in the national conversation. APPLAUSE.
:00:27. > :00:34.Hello, I'm Rick Edwards. I'm Tina Daheley. And this is an audience of
:00:35. > :00:40.Welsh people. We are in Cardiff. We have had months of Scotland and then
:00:41. > :00:43.a lot about England. So we thought we'd head to Wales because we
:00:44. > :00:53.believe in equality. And equally important as the audience here are
:00:54. > :00:57.you guys at home. Send me your comments. If you disagree with any
:00:58. > :01:00.of the points, let disagree with any of the points, let me know. So
:01:01. > :01:02.please tweet as at BBCFreeSpeech or Facebook your comments. Here are the
:01:03. > :01:04.addresses you need. Even if
:01:05. > :01:07.addresses you need. out, other people will be watching
:01:08. > :01:11.and tweeting and you can have a mini-debate online. Lots coming up.
:01:12. > :01:15.Not least a film and the question - do we live in a sexist country?
:01:16. > :01:18.Which we released a week ago on social media. That is coming up.
:01:19. > :01:21.Before we do anything, I want to introduce our wonderful panel. They
:01:22. > :01:23.are the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project, Laura Bates.
:01:24. > :01:28.Compassionate conservative and comedian Omar Hamdi. Freelance
:01:29. > :01:31.journalist Angela Epstein. And leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.
:01:32. > :01:41.That is The first question comes from the
:01:42. > :01:48.leaderboard. All week viewers have been going to our choose your
:01:49. > :01:54.question page on Facebook. If you go to Free Speech questions you will
:01:55. > :01:57.see. People can click a like on the questions they want to see on the
:01:58. > :02:02.show. This week, the question at the top of the leader-board. The
:02:03. > :02:25.question is should the minimum wage have age bands.
:02:26. > :02:31.In principle, there should be a going rate for the job. There should
:02:32. > :02:36.not be a differentiation on the grounds of age. I think an important
:02:37. > :02:40.principle should be if you work full time, a 40 hour week, your income
:02:41. > :02:48.should be enough to live on. A living wage. At present we have too
:02:49. > :02:51.many people living below the living wage, which means they work
:02:52. > :02:54.full-time and struggle to make ends meet and often are reliant upon
:02:55. > :03:03.additional state benefits to up their wages. My party, Plaid Cymru,
:03:04. > :03:06.believes in a living wage, we believe 260,000 people in Wales
:03:07. > :03:16.could get a pay rise if the living wage was introduced tomorrow. If
:03:17. > :03:19.that were to happen it would save on the benefits bill and ensure people
:03:20. > :03:28.who went to work full-time brought home enough money to live on.
:03:29. > :03:35.APPLAUSE. Is that realistic? It is a fair
:03:36. > :03:40.point. We have to make it profitable for young people to go to work. Give
:03:41. > :03:47.them an incentive. People want to work, there is dignity in going to
:03:48. > :03:54.work. The other problem about inequality in pay is that it sets a
:03:55. > :04:01.dangerous precedent. How can you say, actually, young people should
:04:02. > :04:05.be paid less for the same job? It stops the arguments about men and
:04:06. > :04:08.women, able and disabled people. If you do the job, the job was done,
:04:09. > :04:15.you should be paid for the job of work. If somebody is less
:04:16. > :04:19.experienced and does not do the same amount of hours, OK. But we cannot
:04:20. > :04:22.have an argument about inequality if we start with this because the
:04:23. > :04:36.precedent will be set and we could use it the case law for anything
:04:37. > :04:38.else. The panel talked about bringing down the benefits bill,
:04:39. > :04:46.which concerns me. People are genuinely dependent on benefits.
:04:47. > :04:49.There are people who do abuse the system, but I know people who have
:04:50. > :04:57.left university who cannot find jobs. It concerns me it is not just
:04:58. > :05:09.an issue in terms of page, but benefits also. If you are 18, it is
:05:10. > :05:15.not a lot you get. I know people who are struggling financially. If they
:05:16. > :05:24.were over 23, they would be entitled to ?70 per week. Can I make this
:05:25. > :05:27.point about the benefits bill? It is easy for politicians to attack
:05:28. > :05:34.people who claim benefits and I am not one of those politicians, I can
:05:35. > :05:41.assure you. Does it make sense to pay people benefits because they are
:05:42. > :05:44.not earning nothing works? That money should be paid as a wage and
:05:45. > :05:47.people working full-time should not need additional top but benefits,
:05:48. > :05:49.but people who rely state benefits should not be bashed in the way
:05:50. > :06:14.politicians are happy to do that. What are our politicians trying to
:06:15. > :06:20.do to solve this problem? So far I have seen nothing and I have been in
:06:21. > :06:23.many minimum wage jobs. We are voting for people. Plaid Cymru is
:06:24. > :06:27.not in coalition, we were up to 2011, but it is a Labour government
:06:28. > :06:30.in Wales and the National Assembly for Wales does not have the power to
:06:31. > :06:34.set the rate for the minimum wage. My party wants to see the assembly
:06:35. > :06:43.having powers over that and other workers' rights issues. At the
:06:44. > :06:46.moment, we do not have that. The majority of people claiming benefits
:06:47. > :06:53.are people of pension age and they have paid into the system and
:06:54. > :06:55.drawing out. Why do we have politicians still drawing state
:06:56. > :07:02.pension when they have had good salaries throughout their lives? Why
:07:03. > :07:11.do they not give it up and sacrifice that? It would be fair to say they
:07:12. > :07:15.are not the highest earning people in the country so you could apply
:07:16. > :07:18.that to other high earners. If I can go back to the original question
:07:19. > :07:29.about young people being paid less, it is age discrimination. It is
:07:30. > :07:33.amazing. The debate has lasted... We have had the few minutes people have
:07:34. > :07:39.not said how can young people be paid less? How would we feel if it
:07:40. > :07:44.were people between 60 and 63, 40 and 43, or something. We would think
:07:45. > :07:51.that is mental. I do not think young people are particularly of low
:07:52. > :07:56.value. They are not worth 20% less than older people, so it is
:07:57. > :08:00.insulting. If we have the minimum wage, we know people do a lot, if we
:08:01. > :08:13.have it, it has to be one size fits all and it has to be fair.
:08:14. > :08:15.Going back to the question of politicians giving up state
:08:16. > :08:19.pensions, why should they cover politicians who work as hard as any
:08:20. > :08:20.other person, have to give up the pension they earned through the work
:08:21. > :08:31.of their lives? They get a huge expense allowances
:08:32. > :08:41.and other allowances that normal people do not have. Why are they not
:08:42. > :08:49.worthy of their state pension? Why are others more worthy? We pay
:08:50. > :08:59.politicians and our taxes pay politicians, so why should we pay
:09:00. > :09:06.them a state benefit as well? It is nice to think that Tony Blair is go
:09:07. > :09:09.into a bank and getting a pension! -- going into. I want to talk about
:09:10. > :09:13.the cost to small businesses and businesses in general if you got rid
:09:14. > :09:15.of age bands. We are talking about young people so we should not
:09:16. > :09:19.discuss politicians. People looking for younger workers because they
:09:20. > :09:21.have to to pay them less, which keeps their profits higher, and I
:09:22. > :09:29.think the politicians are missing a trick. If they took that away and
:09:30. > :09:32.young people and the same, they have less responsibility in general and
:09:33. > :09:35.can spend more, they have more free money that would come back into the
:09:36. > :09:43.tax bracket and into the government to use. -- earned the same. To use
:09:44. > :09:49.it for the NHS or to do other things. Young people should not be
:09:50. > :09:56.treated any different. If they are doing the job they should be paid
:09:57. > :10:03.the same as an adult. The lady here. You said it could be damaging to
:10:04. > :10:06.some businesses. You could give incentives to businesses to take on
:10:07. > :10:11.young people in other ways such as paid apprenticeships, which needs to
:10:12. > :10:15.be improved in Wales. At the moment apprentices are paid next to nothing
:10:16. > :10:21.to do a lot of work and do not get the support students do at college.
:10:22. > :10:30.There is an issue with businesses and young people and how they are
:10:31. > :10:31.employed. The suggestion that they could suffer, that needs to be
:10:32. > :10:40.addressed by government and politicians. The lady in the green.
:10:41. > :10:44.The under 18s, it is to encourage them to not to go to work and stay
:10:45. > :10:51.in education, but over 18, it is your decision to do full-time work.
:10:52. > :10:54.You might want to get your 40 hour job and earn a living wage. What is
:10:55. > :10:57.the difference between an 18-year-old and 21-year-old? Once
:10:58. > :11:05.you are 18 you are an adult and you should be able to earn your wage.
:11:06. > :11:10.Laura, youth unemployment is almost three times higher than overall
:11:11. > :11:13.unemployment. Is it not reasonable to have an incentive for employers
:11:14. > :11:22.to take on young people by having them paid less? It is right we
:11:23. > :11:26.should have incentives to take on young people but I do not see why it
:11:27. > :11:29.should be at the cost of young people themselves. There should be
:11:30. > :11:32.other ways to give them incentives. The gap between 18-year-olds and
:11:33. > :11:45.21-year-olds, it seems to be in a nice young people who do not go to
:11:46. > :11:49.university. -- penalising young people. It is important not to
:11:50. > :11:52.generalise. We said young people have a greater disposable income,
:11:53. > :11:59.but we have to think about young parents. This could be penalising
:12:00. > :12:03.young parents, young single mothers young parents, young single mothers
:12:04. > :12:07.children. To be penalised for their age seems unfair to me.
:12:08. > :12:13.How would you give an incentive to businesses to take on young people?
:12:14. > :12:17.The young lady was right about apprenticeships. You have to look at
:12:18. > :12:23.your professional life, it is like a trajectory. You do not want to look
:12:24. > :12:33.back in three years and still be there, you want to go that
:12:34. > :12:36.everybody wants to go to university. Not everybody is capable. They need
:12:37. > :12:45.a trade, they need to find a purpose in life and be rewarded. The issue
:12:46. > :12:48.with age discrimination, we have not used the word exploit. There is the
:12:49. > :12:59.risk we exploit young people because by definition if they are paid less,
:13:00. > :13:02.somehow they are worth less. If they are doing technically the same job,
:13:03. > :13:06.they might get the grubby end of the job stop we need people on a career
:13:07. > :13:10.path, so that they might be at the rubbish end of their CV, but they
:13:11. > :13:13.will move on will stop that is why any work structure, that says, do
:13:14. > :13:17.the rubbish now, we probably started doing the office dogsbody stuff, but
:13:18. > :13:30.it is a means to getting onto the next stage. Structured progression?
:13:31. > :13:33.What is happening online? We have been running this question. We have
:13:34. > :13:42.had some answers already and I will get to those. Is it right to have a
:13:43. > :13:48.lower minimum wage? Only 17% of the online audience think yes. Comments
:13:49. > :13:50.coming in already, Sean said most of the population at that age still
:13:51. > :13:54.coming in already, Sean said most of live with parents and do not have to
:13:55. > :14:10.bring in as much money because they do not have to pay the bills. There
:14:11. > :14:14.is a forest of hands. She said when she was 17 she worked
:14:15. > :14:19.for ?3.40 and hour and she survived. -- an hour. Another from Ross, he
:14:20. > :14:21.says we need a lower minimum wage of ?6 an hour. How would you respond to
:14:22. > :14:24.says we need a lower minimum wage of that? The point about exploitation
:14:25. > :14:29.is good. One of the that? The point about exploitation
:14:30. > :14:32.having different pay rates is if you are an exploitative
:14:33. > :14:32.having different pay rates is if you easiest thing to do is take on a
:14:33. > :14:34.young easiest thing to do is take on a
:14:35. > :14:37.and when they easiest thing to do is take on a
:14:38. > :14:50.the rate would go up you sack them and take on another young person who
:14:51. > :14:53.is cheap. That is something we should be opposed to. What about
:14:54. > :14:56.businesses who say they cannot create jobs if the wage goes up? I
:14:57. > :15:02.remember this debate in the 1990s when the minimum wage was
:15:03. > :15:05.introduced. Many businesses, including the CBI, said businesses
:15:06. > :15:14.would be put out of business and would not be able to afford to do
:15:15. > :15:18.this. As far as I am aware, that did not happen. I can understand their
:15:19. > :15:27.concerns but I think previous experience would tell us that did
:15:28. > :15:32.not materialise. A couple of comments. The person on Twitter was
:15:33. > :15:44.saying, I lived at home and reside on ?3 20 or whatever it was. ?3.40.
:15:45. > :15:49.I am 19 and living at home. I have a job that does not pay much. If... I
:15:50. > :15:55.am supposed to be saving up for university. And various other things
:15:56. > :15:58.I would like to be able to pay for. Especially university because I do
:15:59. > :16:05.not want to take out ?9,000 a year in student loans. If I am earning
:16:06. > :16:08.less than somebody who is 21, somebody on the minimum wage, it
:16:09. > :16:11.makes me more dependent on the student loans at a later date and at
:16:12. > :16:25.the mercy of my family and my parents I am living with. Looking
:16:26. > :16:31.for the generosity of your family? Yes. If we are talking about the
:16:32. > :16:37.minimum wage, say we were to raise this, would that affect the tax
:16:38. > :16:40.boundary? People in and under ?8,000 per year get the personal allowance,
:16:41. > :16:47.so should we lower the personal allowance as well? You wouldn't be
:16:48. > :16:53.better off then, would you? You want to be better off from a measure that
:16:54. > :16:57.would equalise. You can do different things with tax allowances but I
:16:58. > :17:02.don't think it should be related to the rate of the minimum wage.
:17:03. > :17:06.I think we are going to move on now. Before our next question, a reminder
:17:07. > :17:14.that our next show in two weeks will be in Dover, when we will be talking
:17:15. > :17:18.about immigration. Two weeks after that, we are in London and inviting
:17:19. > :17:29.anyone with a mental health issue to join us in the audience. Alistair
:17:30. > :17:32.Campbell will be here. The address should be at the bottom of the
:17:33. > :17:44.screen. Our next question starts with this film.
:17:45. > :17:53.Shouldn't you be in the kitchen? Don't get your knickers in a twist.
:17:54. > :18:03.What do you say to a woman with two black eyes? Should have listened the
:18:04. > :18:08.first time. Smile, love, it might never happen. How can you trust
:18:09. > :18:22.something that bleeds once a month and doesn't die? It is just banter!
:18:23. > :18:32.Why are you always angry? You wouldn't dress like that if you
:18:33. > :18:39.didn't want people to look. She won't shut up. Get your tits out,
:18:40. > :18:47.you look like a total freak, I bet you would do anything. Let a man do
:18:48. > :18:52.it, love. Why don't you just sit there and look pretty. I would
:18:53. > :18:55.absolutely ruin her. You would look really pretty a few lost a bit of
:18:56. > :19:07.weight. She was asking for it. That has really resonated with our
:19:08. > :19:15.audience, we had 200,000 views this week just for that. Do we live in a
:19:16. > :19:27.sexist country? Laura. Yes. OK, that's enough! Elaborate. Obviously
:19:28. > :19:29.I am being flippant but the evidence is overwhelming. It doesn't matter
:19:30. > :19:33.whether you look at anecdotal evidence, if you look at the number
:19:34. > :19:47.of people who came forward in just a few days, the anecdotal evidence
:19:48. > :19:51.floods into my website. We have over 80,000 people' experience. Or
:19:52. > :19:54.whether you look at figures like the fact that 30,000 women per year lose
:19:55. > :19:57.their job because of maternity discrimination, that a poll this
:19:58. > :19:59.week just show that 47% of university students experiences
:20:00. > :20:08.groping, two women per week in the UK are killed by a current partner,
:20:09. > :20:17.I could go on and on. I don't see how you could argue otherwise.
:20:18. > :20:22.You said a moment ago about two women per week being killed by a
:20:23. > :20:35.partner or a former partner, that has been found false according to
:20:36. > :20:38.government statistics. Mike Buchanan of the political party Justice For
:20:39. > :20:58.Men And Boys has asked you to rescind that statement. I would
:20:59. > :21:02.advise anyone to Google Mike Buchanan and loko at the rebuttals
:21:03. > :21:05.made of his work. He makes fun of people who talk about feminism but
:21:06. > :21:08.doesn't make any logical points against. I think it is really
:21:09. > :21:11.damaging on a national platform like this to try to suggest that a
:21:12. > :21:19.national figure, widely respected and accepted, like this one is
:21:20. > :21:21.incorrect. It is dangerous to go around suggesting figures like that
:21:22. > :21:33.are not true. That is the official figure. What confuses me about this
:21:34. > :21:36.question is that we have taken the term sexism and we are lumping a lot
:21:37. > :21:39.of things together into one big steaming pot. Any conscientious
:21:40. > :21:50.civil minded member of society should absolutely balk at domestic
:21:51. > :21:53.violence, insulting, vile behaviour. It doesn't matter if the man says
:21:54. > :21:59.it, if a woman says it, collectively we should object to that. The
:22:00. > :22:06.question you asked was if this is a sexist society. We are not talking
:22:07. > :22:13.about if it is a society that propagates domestic violence. To
:22:14. > :22:16.suggest we are sexist society suggests there is no scope for women
:22:17. > :22:20.to make inroads into all areas of professional life. To throw a few
:22:21. > :22:23.statistics back, and bear in mind you can make statistics work any
:22:24. > :22:33.which way you want, politicians will tell you that better than me...
:22:34. > :22:41.Sorry! Cheap gag. But the point is that women regularly... Sorry, girls
:22:42. > :22:45.regularly outperform boys at school. There are more women going to
:22:46. > :22:50.university now than men. My own son has just started a course at
:22:51. > :22:54.university. 70% of the course is women, it is a medical course. They
:22:55. > :23:09.all needed really high grades to get on that course. Why are we not
:23:10. > :23:14.running of the company 's then? -- all of the companies. Let me tell
:23:15. > :23:17.you why, there are two good answers. Either because they don't want to or
:23:18. > :23:21.because they cannot. That is condescending. The problem with the
:23:22. > :23:21.sexist debates is that it degenerates
:23:22. > :23:28.personal. It is not helpful. Like it or not, biology makes us different.
:23:29. > :23:38.It doesn't make us better or worse, it makes us different. I'm sorry,
:23:39. > :23:44.but when you have children... You may not want to... I didn't mean you
:23:45. > :23:47.personally. Once a woman has children, she may find that all the
:23:48. > :23:56.greatest plans she had for pursuing her career, she will be challenged
:23:57. > :24:00.biologically by the way she feels. We live in a meritocracy, but I
:24:01. > :24:03.don't know about you and the women in the audience, I don't want to get
:24:04. > :24:13.the job because I am fulfilling someone's female quota. I want to be
:24:14. > :24:18.the best person for the job. That is Angela's experience. The lady here.
:24:19. > :24:22.I completely agree with you. I am 16 at the moment, I have noticed that I
:24:23. > :24:28.am witnessing more and more sexism. There is an area in my street which
:24:29. > :24:31.I avoid because I get wolf whistled. I am an aspiring film-maker and
:24:32. > :24:37.earlier this year I attended a class aimed at 16-18 -year-olds. In that
:24:38. > :24:41.class there were two male directors who are very successful and I asked
:24:42. > :24:45.them both what I can do to achieve the best I can in this industry and
:24:46. > :24:48.they both said to me you have got to make relationships with other
:24:49. > :24:54.people, and by that I don't mean sleeping around. I was with two boys
:24:55. > :24:58.of my own age, neither of them received that advice. He was
:24:59. > :25:02.basically assuming that because I was a female, my first thing I would
:25:03. > :25:14.do in a professional situation would be to sleep with someone to promote
:25:15. > :25:18.myself. I haven't even entered the world of work yet. That has given me
:25:19. > :25:22.an insight into thinking that what is between my legs will determine
:25:23. > :25:23.how well I do in the industry and that is ridiculous. What is your
:25:24. > :25:28.experience as a that is ridiculous. What is your
:25:29. > :25:48.How have you found it? that is ridiculous. What is your
:25:49. > :25:51.politics as there should be. It is a man's world, no doubt about that.
:25:52. > :25:52.Even in our National Assembly in Wales there are
:25:53. > :25:55.Even in our National Assembly in many more women in the cabinet. We
:25:56. > :25:58.were at one many more women in the cabinet. We
:25:59. > :26:01.institution which is something I am very proud of, but nonetheless there
:26:02. > :26:03.is definite sexism within the world of politics. If you look at the
:26:04. > :26:06.House of Commons, of politics. If you look at the
:26:07. > :26:11.look at the benches to see the gender imbalance. I just wanted to
:26:12. > :26:11.come back on one of the points that was
:26:12. > :26:14.come back on one of the points that outperforming boys in school, girls
:26:15. > :26:17.outperforming boys in university, but then what we don't see is women
:26:18. > :26:26.heading organisations, becoming the chief executive. Whichever sector
:26:27. > :26:40.you look at, it is men that dominate at the top on the boards and the
:26:41. > :26:42.rest of it. I'm afraid, until that situation is reversed, we have to
:26:43. > :26:44.conclude, situation is reversed, we have to
:26:45. > :26:47.Laura said, we have to conclude situation is reversed, we have to
:26:48. > :26:49.we live in not only a sexist society but
:26:50. > :26:51.we live in not only a sexist society homophobic society, a just society.
:26:52. > :26:53.There is a lot of discrimination out there that we should not be prepared
:26:54. > :26:56.There is a lot of discrimination out that, how do we go about reversing
:26:57. > :27:11.it? Angela just said she doesn't want to
:27:12. > :27:14.get a job because of a quota. I think Angela said there are two
:27:15. > :27:18.reasons why women don't get to the top, one is that they don't want to
:27:19. > :27:20.and another is that they cannot, and I would say there are lots of
:27:21. > :27:23.institutional barriers stopping women from reaching the top. You
:27:24. > :27:36.don't think it is a meritocracy? I definitely don't think it is.
:27:37. > :27:40.Having children does have something to do with it. Who provides the
:27:41. > :27:43.majority of the childcare in society? I don't, in my own family,
:27:44. > :27:47.my partner provides the childcare, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do
:27:48. > :27:50.the job that I do, but in the average family in the average
:27:51. > :27:55.community it is women who take that job. Not just looking after the
:27:56. > :28:04.children but looking after elderly relatives as well. One idea that
:28:05. > :28:07.seems to be purported a lot is that yes, we live in a sexist society,
:28:08. > :28:11.but it showed in the video that people tend to believe sexism only
:28:12. > :28:20.works one way, so the video only featured women. Nobody talks about
:28:21. > :28:34.male genital mutilation, if you get circumcised, man up... Men are
:28:35. > :28:46.expected to do heavy lifting. It works both ways. This isn't about a
:28:47. > :28:49.gender war. Look at this panel, we have an antifeminist woman and a
:28:50. > :28:57.feminist man, how mental is that! Only on BBC Three would you have
:28:58. > :29:07.such a random panel as this. Non- feminist. Sorry. Men are the victims
:29:08. > :29:11.of patriarchy and sexism, even though, let's not be silly, the
:29:12. > :29:17.majority of the time it is women on the receiving end. Let's hear from
:29:18. > :29:23.some men who are getting in touch from home. You are talking about the
:29:24. > :29:26.film we showed before when people are giving examples of everyday
:29:27. > :29:29.sexism, this proves people are always moaning. A lot of this is
:29:30. > :29:32.banter being misunderstood, I guess women have no sense of humour. And
:29:33. > :29:36.another one, Eddie, who says, one I get all the time - what do you
:29:37. > :29:39.expect, he is only a man. It is crazy. Within seconds of introducing
:29:40. > :29:43.the debate, and well done to doing the show, I would not have done this
:29:44. > :29:52.when I was 18, but the debate descended to if you look at the
:29:53. > :30:02.statistics... I wouldn't have done this when I was 18, I was in my
:30:03. > :30:06.bedroom. We were talking about different types of discrimination.
:30:07. > :30:09.If we said, is their racism in the UK? He would not have people saying,
:30:10. > :30:22.actually, I think those black people just like to moan. We would never do
:30:23. > :30:25.that. There is something about our culture that has made sexism just a
:30:26. > :30:29.bit of banter. If somebody had said black people like to moan, somebody
:30:30. > :30:39.would have said that is a criminal offence. With women, it is, it is
:30:40. > :30:46.just the lads. I like your enthusiasm, but try not to wallop
:30:47. > :30:59.me. If we look at the view in terms of the way it is a one-way journey.
:31:00. > :31:04.There are advertising campaign is built on a culture of women looking
:31:05. > :31:07.at men. A certain fizzy drink, women stop... They stop at their lunch
:31:08. > :31:11.break because the window cleaner will take his shirt off and open
:31:12. > :31:17.this drink. Women on hen nights queue up to see the Chippendales.
:31:18. > :31:20.They are allowed to cat call, throw things at them. Can you imagine if
:31:21. > :31:25.it happened the other way around? Yes! I am talking about an
:31:26. > :31:34.advertising campaign where a woman stopped to have her fizzy drink and
:31:35. > :31:45.revealed herself in a wet T-shirt. The Flake advert was supposed to be
:31:46. > :31:51.beautiful and romantic. Nobody from Cadbury series here to defend
:31:52. > :31:56.themselves! -- Cadbury's is here. Laura. I would try to give you back
:31:57. > :31:59.a list of examples when women are objectified, but we would be here
:32:00. > :32:03.all night. Those comments online, it is about attitude. It is about the
:32:04. > :32:10.way society treats women and we have these discussions. It is about the
:32:11. > :32:12.tendency to dismiss these ideas. We are talking about issues as diverse
:32:13. > :32:22.as sexual harassment, domestic violence, rape. People are saying,
:32:23. > :32:26.don't you have a sense of humour? It is ridiculous to say only a few
:32:27. > :32:35.women are top directors of the top companies in the UK because they do
:32:36. > :32:38.not want to. I object to this stoking up, we are all militant
:32:39. > :32:44.women together, I think you strike an own goal. It is
:32:45. > :32:48.counter-productive to put it to some kind of militant response. I never
:32:49. > :32:57.suggested that sexual objectification, domestic violence
:32:58. > :33:04.were not issues. Modern day feminism seems to edit as it listens and that
:33:05. > :33:07.way it becomes counter-productive. There are genuine sexist things in
:33:08. > :33:10.society that we have to fight against, but you cannot put issues
:33:11. > :33:12.of domestic violence alongside whether a woman should feel
:33:13. > :33:24.objectified if somebody calls her "love" or wolf whistles at her. It
:33:25. > :33:29.depends whether she feels threatened. We have to define very
:33:30. > :33:34.carefully the difference between not having a sense of humour and feeling
:33:35. > :33:40.threatened when there are issues of personal safety at risk. That is
:33:41. > :33:43.what feminism does not do. Feminism tackles these as a spectrum. If we
:33:44. > :33:46.see women as second-class citizens and teach young girls to think it is
:33:47. > :33:51.OK for men to shout about their breasts. A naked woman on page three
:33:52. > :34:01.of the biggest selling national newspaper... Of cours... -- course.
:34:02. > :34:09.Please let me finish. I am suggesting there are connections. I
:34:10. > :34:13.am not saying that someone looks at page three and commits assaults, it
:34:14. > :34:16.is not so simple. But we have to look at the context in which we see
:34:17. > :34:20.an epidemic of domestic violence against women. We have to look at
:34:21. > :34:23.attitudes and the fact that we live in a society that sends messages
:34:24. > :34:26.about women and their role in society from a younger age. Those
:34:27. > :34:33.ideas are also at the root of some of the bigger problems. We can check
:34:34. > :34:39.online. We were talking about banter. This person says her
:34:40. > :34:44.16-year-old is the word rape regularly at school and it is
:34:45. > :34:51.dismissed as banter. -- hears the word rape. We have to be clear about
:34:52. > :34:54.what is used as banter. There is a difference from somebody calling me
:34:55. > :35:05.petal... And a 16-year-old using rape like a dismissive term. What if
:35:06. > :35:17.it was the racist equivalent of petal? That is different. Why is it
:35:18. > :35:21.different? It is 50% of the country waging war on the other 50%. Even if
:35:22. > :35:25.you want to separate the things from things you do not see as serious,
:35:26. > :35:28.why should we not be able to fight things at every level? Why should we
:35:29. > :35:37.not tackle sexism and sexual harassment in the street? There is a
:35:38. > :35:40.difference between that and looking at things that are almost trivial.
:35:41. > :35:48.And trivialising the big things we need to fight for to ensure
:35:49. > :35:51.equality. The campaign, for example, last year, about having more within
:35:52. > :35:53.on banknotes, which was a spectacular waste of time and
:35:54. > :35:56.energy. Make sure women have the same number of banknotes in their
:35:57. > :36:09.pockets as men, yes, but sometimes modern day feminism spoils for an
:36:10. > :36:15.argument to look for. I want to come to the audience. Banter I have with
:36:16. > :36:19.colleagues and friends. I do not get banter from strangers on the street.
:36:20. > :36:24.I hate walking down the street and being told to smile, it might not
:36:25. > :36:28.happen. You do not know what my life is like. This is symptomatic of the
:36:29. > :36:34.bigger picture. If we do not stop street harassment we will not stop
:36:35. > :36:37.anything else. The gentleman here. Look at the suffragette movement
:36:38. > :36:46.when people lost their lives all women to vote. -- for the right
:36:47. > :36:50.when people lost their lives all women to vote. I think it is wrong
:36:51. > :36:53.when people lost their lives all that calling someone babe on the
:36:54. > :37:01.street is trivialised. You need to look at the bigger picture. People
:37:02. > :37:04.died for equality. The question about living in a sexist country, we
:37:05. > :37:07.have identified in many ways in which women suffer from sexism but
:37:08. > :37:09.there is nothing talking about the way men, for example, there is like
:37:10. > :37:23.the homeless people, there is a way men, for example, there is like
:37:24. > :37:34.saying in some cases people who have children, for example, they need
:37:35. > :37:37.support. Your gender should not make you vulnerable. It is your
:37:38. > :37:45.circumstance that makes you vulnerable.
:37:46. > :37:48.The lady here. With the militant side of feminism, if that does not
:37:49. > :37:49.work, when we look at feminism people seem to be
:37:50. > :37:57.work, when we look at feminism both sides of the same coin.
:37:58. > :38:06.work, when we look at feminism sexism because of sexism towards
:38:07. > :38:07.women. Men get told to man up. Because feminism is shown as
:38:08. > :38:11.something bad. Women do well in school because school has become
:38:12. > :38:14.feminised and girls are expected to do well and as a result
:38:15. > :38:18.feminised and girls are expected to boys do not put as much effort into
:38:19. > :38:21.it, because they see it as something they should not be doing. It is the
:38:22. > :38:28.same coin, it is just the flip side of it. Is that something you think
:38:29. > :38:32.about as well, Laura? That is a good point. Sexism has a negative impact
:38:33. > :38:36.on everybody. We have stories that come into the project, we had one
:38:37. > :38:41.from a man who asked for paternity leave and was ridiculed and was
:38:42. > :38:47.denied it. In the same week a woman was denied promotion because she was
:38:48. > :38:54.considered a maternity risk. Those are people suffering to size up the
:38:55. > :38:57.same coin. -- two sides. An outdated gender stereotype making things bad
:38:58. > :39:12.for men and women. This is not against men, it is people against
:39:13. > :39:14.prejudice. Tina. Let us have a look what is happening at home. If it
:39:15. > :39:18.works, if it doesn't. The question is, do we live in a sexist country?
:39:19. > :39:23.81% of people watching say yes. Some of the comments, men getting in
:39:24. > :39:29.touch. A positive message from Alex. This country has evolved fast and a
:39:30. > :39:35.lot of women dominate and is buyer. -- and inspire. More can be done but
:39:36. > :39:37.let's appreciate the progress. Another one, more girls are
:39:38. > :39:41.university than boys because if girls do not get a degree they are
:39:42. > :39:49.more likely to be in low-paid work. And a question for Angela. How would
:39:50. > :39:53.you feel if somebody did your job and was paid more? I would be
:39:54. > :39:57.outraged. It comes back to what I was saying at the beginning of this
:39:58. > :40:00.discussion. What has happened is that originally the sexism and
:40:01. > :40:08.feminism seem to be bywords for each other. But this is a collective
:40:09. > :40:17.responsibility for society. If there is genuine injustice, men and women,
:40:18. > :40:21.we have two address them. -- to address them. We cannot look at
:40:22. > :40:25.sexism as some kind of brand of feminism, something tailored towards
:40:26. > :40:28.women. Just as I said I do not want female short lists, which is why I
:40:29. > :40:42.would be appalled if somebody was paid more than me. But if we look at
:40:43. > :40:45.the debate and look at unfairness against women, it irritates because
:40:46. > :40:47.some people think it is women not understanding that men have issues.
:40:48. > :40:53.We have to work collectively. Only by working in tandem can we address
:40:54. > :41:01.inequality. Do you feel alienated by feminism as a movement? It doesn't
:41:02. > :41:09.speak to me at all. The young man mentioned the suffragettes. My old
:41:10. > :41:12.school, I went to a girls' school. I was taught, I came from a modest
:41:13. > :41:17.background, aim high and work hard and if you do you can get what you
:41:18. > :41:21.want. That is the message I give my daughter. It is not about thinking a
:41:22. > :41:27.man can do what you cannot do. You are a person, prove you can do the
:41:28. > :41:37.job and go ahead and do it. The lady here. I think what you're
:41:38. > :41:43.missing is the reason why you have a part of this sexism on both sides. I
:41:44. > :41:53.thought a word that would be used was lad culture. It is in Eton
:41:54. > :41:57.college where they have their little groups and they are told they have
:41:58. > :42:01.to do that. The reason why there are more politicians in the top area is
:42:02. > :42:04.not because the women are not getting the education, it is because
:42:05. > :42:07.people at that level have the mindset that you cannot let somebody
:42:08. > :42:13.else do that because it has always been a man's position. That is an
:42:14. > :42:19.interesting point. The main problem I have with what you said, Angela,
:42:20. > :42:24.was to do with women's biology. Somehow women are programmed a
:42:25. > :42:31.different way. I said we are different. It doesn't make us
:42:32. > :42:37.unequal. I would like to say that is not found by academic research, with
:42:38. > :42:41.academic research... -- founded. I am not saying nature does not have
:42:42. > :42:48.an impact on how we are, but I am a primary school teacher. Yesterday, I
:42:49. > :42:54.had a conversation with a six-year-old girl. I said to her,
:42:55. > :42:58.what did you do at the weekend? She said she went to a football party
:42:59. > :43:01.but the girls did not play. That is not a natural thing to happen.
:43:02. > :43:05.Society has made people think that is a natural thing to happen, but
:43:06. > :43:14.research shows it is not a natural process we have come to.
:43:15. > :43:18.I know a lot of women, professional women, highly educated, been
:43:19. > :43:28.successful, who have thought differently when they have had their
:43:29. > :43:36.families. I have met women in all spheres of professional life. Kids
:43:37. > :43:41.do what they want to do. I have a daughter who has three older
:43:42. > :43:44.brothers. There are footballs, the paraphernalia of boys around the
:43:45. > :43:47.house, and she is empowered by her choice to play with her dolls or
:43:48. > :43:53.play football with her brothers. Kids today are so sophisticated,
:43:54. > :43:56.they do what they want to do. If girls do not want to play football,
:43:57. > :44:05.it is probably because they do not want to play football. We will leave
:44:06. > :44:10.it there. Good debate. Simon Thomas. What you want to ask? Do you think
:44:11. > :44:18.Wales should have the same powers as Scotland? Topical. Omar. Of course
:44:19. > :44:23.Wales should have the same powers as Scotland. It has been long overdue
:44:24. > :44:26.that Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland, it has been long overdue
:44:27. > :44:32.for Wales and Scotland to forge their own identity. I do not know
:44:33. > :44:42.why we have been holding back. I think Wales is Scotland with an
:44:43. > :44:46.inferiority complex! We should get rid of it. Look at this amazing
:44:47. > :44:56.building, the music and culture and history and poetry and comedy.
:44:57. > :45:03.Everything. It is about time we went for it. Are you in favour of
:45:04. > :45:10.independence? Yes. I think Plaid Cymru has the approach to this. It
:45:11. > :45:13.works for England, as well. Just like Wales and Scotland have to stop
:45:14. > :45:16.viewing themselves as the junior partner of England, it is about time
:45:17. > :45:27.England realised they are not a colonial power. They should discover
:45:28. > :45:30.themselves. If there was English identity you would not have vacuums
:45:31. > :45:50.for people like the English Defence League. We are not a country that is
:45:51. > :45:55.ready to be independent. I am proud of being Welsh. We know that we
:45:56. > :45:58.still rely on England full lawmaking powers and we rely on England to
:45:59. > :46:02.provide some sustenance of money to us and the Welsh would not be daft
:46:03. > :46:05.enough to break the union as it currently stands until we have more
:46:06. > :46:06.devolution of powers to look after ourselves. Would you agree that
:46:07. > :46:18.Wales is not ready for independence? I don't think it is. If you go back
:46:19. > :46:27.to the 1997 devolution referendum, the turnout was about 50.4%.
:46:28. > :46:35.I am a politics student, the figures are ingrained! As leader of Plaid
:46:36. > :46:41.Cymru, do you think there has been a lot of change since then? More
:46:42. > :46:44.people are interested in further devolution and independence? I do
:46:45. > :46:48.think people are interested, and I accept the point you make - more
:46:49. > :46:51.people in Wales would be nervous about us moving to independence more
:46:52. > :46:55.quickly and that is because our economic position is not the same as
:46:56. > :46:59.Scotland's. That doesn't mean we cannot get to that point and I think
:47:00. > :47:03.we should have the ambition and the plan to have a successful economy,
:47:04. > :47:09.and when we have that then our people can take the choice that
:47:10. > :47:12.people in Scotland took last week. The principle that the people
:47:13. > :47:16.closest to a decision are the best people to make that decision is one
:47:17. > :47:32.I I think we can probably all agree with. -- one I think. The same goes
:47:33. > :47:42.for Scotland too. They are presided over by a government in Westminster
:47:43. > :47:48.that neither country have voted for. The cuts that have been meted out by
:47:49. > :47:51.the Coalition in London are not good for our people, particularly in our
:47:52. > :47:54.poorest communities in Wales or Scotland, so that is the debate they
:47:55. > :47:58.had in Scotland last week. I was there, it was a fantastic debate,
:47:59. > :48:02.85% of the people turned out and nobody was engaged in the process.
:48:03. > :48:06.If we could have a debate like that in Wales, the apathy we have seen I
:48:07. > :48:09.think we would be able to stem, and we would be able to generate an
:48:10. > :48:21.interest in politics, the like of which I have never seen before in
:48:22. > :48:23.this country. I am a very proud Welshman. As a global community we
:48:24. > :48:27.are supposed to be coming together, why would you want to be coming
:48:28. > :48:36.together, why would you want a breakaway? Last week the debate in
:48:37. > :48:39.Scotland was being framed around Scotland given the opportunity to
:48:40. > :48:43.join the world community. It is not a case of breaking up or separating,
:48:44. > :48:53.it is voting yes to become a member of the world community as a nation
:48:54. > :48:55.state in its own right. I work in America sometimes and I'm sick of
:48:56. > :49:01.people asking me where America sometimes and I'm sick of
:49:02. > :49:10.and I say Wales, next to England. You would still
:49:11. > :49:15.and I say Wales, next to England. will help. It won't
:49:16. > :49:15.and I say Wales, next to England. America's geography, trust me! I
:49:16. > :49:21.think in this disturbing America's geography, trust me! I
:49:22. > :49:23.at large, we are union... Do you feel like that about the European
:49:24. > :49:38.Union? That is feel like that about the European
:49:39. > :49:42.conversation. It is typical politicking to kick in Europe every
:49:43. > :49:51.so often when it suits the range of the debate. I'm talking about the
:49:52. > :49:57.UK. We have men who fought together in the second and First World War in
:49:58. > :50:00.this country. We have to look at what our communities need. I don't
:50:01. > :50:08.understand the need for borders and separation. I am from Manchester and
:50:09. > :50:11.they are talking about devolving powers to Manchester. I think we
:50:12. > :50:18.have to have a fair, and equal society. We are united kingdom, we
:50:19. > :50:24.are country. There are borders in Europe. If you want to simplify it,
:50:25. > :50:25.that is up to you because you started off talking about the needs
:50:26. > :50:35.of the Welsh people. I think we are much stronger as a
:50:36. > :50:38.union and Westminster house to understand that there may be needs
:50:39. > :50:41.in the broader communities of Wales that need addressing but I don't
:50:42. > :50:52.think we should be breaking up the union. I completely disagree about
:50:53. > :51:02.the independence. I don't think we should go independent. Scotland is a
:51:03. > :51:06.country that has natural resources like oil and therefore that would
:51:07. > :51:14.make them rich if they were to go independent, whereas Wales doesn't
:51:15. > :51:21.have natural resources. We have coal. We used to! We never kept the
:51:22. > :51:24.money from it. I don't think we should go independent because it
:51:25. > :51:28.would send us into debt. I am English and personally I love Wales
:51:29. > :51:31.and I would be gutted if they left the union but I can completely
:51:32. > :51:34.understand where it is coming from because I think a lot of us don't
:51:35. > :51:37.feel represented by the Westminster government and it is just not
:51:38. > :51:45.working. We are being led by Westminster instead of being led by
:51:46. > :51:52.the entire union. What are people saying online? Should Wales have the
:51:53. > :51:58.same powers as Scotland, 73% say yes.
:51:59. > :52:02.This is a question for you, Leanne. Is it really representative of the
:52:03. > :52:14.people in Wales, independence, when 70% of people didn't want to go for
:52:15. > :52:17.it in a recent poll? No, and I think those polls ask people if they want
:52:18. > :52:19.to become independent now and I understand the reticence of that
:52:20. > :52:22.because of our economic situation but that doesn't mean we shouldn't
:52:23. > :52:27.aspire to have a more successful economy. Independence is normal, it
:52:28. > :52:41.is the state that most countries in the world are in, and we are the
:52:42. > :52:46.anomaly. I would like to say I am English and I am studying in Wales
:52:47. > :52:53.and I love Wales. What does the panel think of having a federalised
:52:54. > :53:01.United Kingdom? Rather than is being independent. -- it being. That would
:53:02. > :53:05.work if the constituent parts were equal, but given that one part is so
:53:06. > :53:08.huge, then there would be a big power imbalance so that could be
:53:09. > :53:11.difficult. Do you think that if you want to have an independent Wales
:53:12. > :53:15.that it would be fair for people if England took part in some kind of
:53:16. > :53:23.referendum to find out if you should stay or not. No, I think they should
:53:24. > :53:26.have a debate about what they want for their political arrangements and
:53:27. > :53:29.if that results in an English parliament or regional bodies within
:53:30. > :53:32.England, then that is a matter for people in England, but I think Wales
:53:33. > :53:44.should decide what happens in Wales, just as Scotland decided about the
:53:45. > :53:46.future of Scotland. I lean as well towards this idea that togetherness
:53:47. > :53:55.is something beneficial, especially on a world stage, but it is easy to
:53:56. > :53:59.say that when you are English. If that is something we want, if that
:54:00. > :54:02.is something we feel is beneficial for all of us, then I think we have
:54:03. > :54:06.to make sure countries like Wales and Scotland have the devolution and
:54:07. > :54:14.powers they need to do what is right for them. I was shocked to discover
:54:15. > :54:20.earlier on that Wales has less devolution of those powers. If we
:54:21. > :54:23.want the benefits that come from standing alongside Scotland and
:54:24. > :54:30.Wales, we need to give them the powers they need for it to
:54:31. > :54:34.beneficial for them. I want to go back to what you said
:54:35. > :54:40.about World War II, when you were talking about men fighting together.
:54:41. > :54:42.I just want to use it as an example of everyday sexism because you
:54:43. > :54:45.completely ignored the contribution that the women of this country but
:54:46. > :54:49.also the other countries who had to take over men's jobs and had to come
:54:50. > :54:58.out of the house and childcare and all the things they had done until
:54:59. > :55:05.that point. That is a spectacular example of what my problem is with
:55:06. > :55:10.feminism. I need a very generalised point about them going out to battle
:55:11. > :55:13.together. -- I made. I didn't in any way suggest women had not made an
:55:14. > :55:16.important contribution to the war effort. That is very unhelpful. Back
:55:17. > :55:21.to the point about Wales and devolution. Scotland and England has
:55:22. > :55:28.a youth Parliament, why can't Wales have one? They have recently got rid
:55:29. > :55:34.of the national voice for young people. Children and young people
:55:35. > :55:44.should have an Assembly, why can't we be exactly like England and
:55:45. > :55:48.Scotland? I agree, there needs to be a forum for young people. It is
:55:49. > :55:55.unacceptable that a system like that exists in England and Scotland and
:55:56. > :55:59.it doesn't exist in Wales. Unfortunately that is all we have
:56:00. > :56:02.time for. We will be back in a fortnight on the 7th of October in
:56:03. > :56:18.Dover. Please don't forget our choose our audience questions. We
:56:19. > :56:22.know the acronym is unfortunate! For now, goodbye. We will see you in
:56:23. > :56:33.two.