:00:29. > :00:33.Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week: Shock horror,
:00:33. > :00:41.still a divided society, but will the way we deal with the past help
:00:41. > :00:46.build a united future. The Strabane pupils getting Transatlantic work
:00:46. > :00:50.experience. Peter Robinson's 161 spin doctors, are they doing their
:00:50. > :00:55.job? Will Ireland vote yes to the stability deal and what if the
:00:55. > :00:58.answer is no? No amnesty, hand yourself in if you
:00:58. > :01:01.are a terrorist with a guilty conscience. Those were unionist'
:01:01. > :01:04.responses this week in the context of party talks with the Secretary
:01:05. > :01:08.of State about dealing with the past.
:01:08. > :01:12.It came in a week when a community relations report told us what was
:01:12. > :01:16.the painfully obvious, that we are still a society deeply divided by
:01:16. > :01:19.housing, education and culture. So to what extent will our future be
:01:19. > :01:22.determined with how we approach the so-called legacy issues. There
:01:22. > :01:26.doesn't seem to be much to choose between the Secretary of State and
:01:26. > :01:33.the DUP on these issues, no amnesty, no truth commission, so are you a
:01:33. > :01:37.bit out in the cold? I'm more inclined to look at how long it's
:01:37. > :01:44.taken people to get round to addressing those very serious
:01:45. > :01:48.questions and concerns and trauma that so many survivors, victims,
:01:48. > :01:52.are expressing. That approach, which has been around for the best
:01:52. > :01:55.part of the 30-40 years of the conflict and since, really hasn't
:01:56. > :01:59.addressed the concerns. I think it's time for some new thinking and
:01:59. > :02:04.whilst the disapounting that it's taken so long, I think people still
:02:04. > :02:08.have to be challenged. -- disappointing. Why do you think it
:02:08. > :02:11.will work in the future if it hasn't up to now? Because it's the
:02:11. > :02:14.bottom line? It's not for the victims. They want to know what
:02:14. > :02:20.happened and they want justice. They are not getting justice. If we
:02:20. > :02:23.have a trickle of people over that 30-40 year years who voluntarily
:02:23. > :02:27.went to the police station and said I can make a statement, that won't
:02:27. > :02:30.address it because we are talking about many people here.
:02:30. > :02:34.thinking, you need some and quickly? I don't think there's any
:02:34. > :02:44.new thinking when it comes to justice. Justice is the same
:02:44. > :02:48.
:02:49. > :02:54.whether it's in this century or the last. It's about people being
:02:54. > :02:57.brought to account for their wrongdoing. What Sinn Fein propose
:02:57. > :03:01.will deny the victims justice and I think that is where we draw the
:03:01. > :03:05.line. We believe that people have suffered in the past, suffered some
:03:05. > :03:07.terrible things that have happened to them and their families. If they
:03:08. > :03:11.want justice, they are entitled to pursue it. Do you think that
:03:11. > :03:15.everyone wants justice? Don't people just want to know what
:03:15. > :03:19.happened? Well, again, there is no one-size-fits-all approach to this,
:03:19. > :03:24.Noel. I accept there are people who may have moved on with their lives
:03:24. > :03:28.and have lost hope that there will be justice and want to know the
:03:28. > :03:32.truth about what happened to their loved ones but have no expectation
:03:32. > :03:36.that anyone will be held to account for that. That said, there are many
:03:36. > :03:40.of the victims who still feel that justice is important for them. I
:03:40. > :03:45.don't believe that they should be denyed the right to pursue justice
:03:45. > :03:49.in those circumstances. If you withdraw from them the right to
:03:49. > :03:56.justice, then you once again perpetrate on them all the hurt and
:03:56. > :04:01.pain that they've been through. To deny justice is to in a way
:04:01. > :04:11.exaggerate the wrong, it's to make that wrong even worse than it
:04:11. > :04:19.
:04:19. > :04:23.This should have the avenue to pursue it? It should apply to
:04:23. > :04:29.everybody. It should apply to the victims of the British Army. It
:04:29. > :04:36.should apply to the Special Branch, with Loyalist polymer the trees in
:04:36. > :04:40.murder campaigns. If it doesn't apply to them, clearly the only
:04:40. > :04:45.truth they are interested in are the truth that IRA volunteers could
:04:45. > :04:50.provide or loyalist paramilitaries. But they do not want to talk about
:04:50. > :04:55.state violence. I think they can be made the halfway to recognising the
:04:55. > :04:58.reality if they are arguing that. Are you arguing that? We are clear,
:04:58. > :05:01.anybody that broke the law is amenable to the law. We do not
:05:01. > :05:06.distinguish will seek to create a hierarchy of victimhood. That is
:05:06. > :05:10.precisely what Sinn Fein want to do. That is what has happened at the
:05:10. > :05:13.moment. We are saying quite clearly that if there are victims out there
:05:13. > :05:17.that want to pursue justice, whatever the circumstances in which
:05:17. > :05:20.the loved one died, they are entitled to pursue that justice. It
:05:20. > :05:25.is not the DUP that is creating this sense of hierarchy amongst
:05:25. > :05:29.victims. In fact it is that kind of proposal that Sinn Fein has that
:05:29. > :05:34.will do just that. It will deny justice to any of the victims that
:05:34. > :05:38.want to pursue justice. Effectively, you are halfway to agreement? As
:05:38. > :05:43.Vince McLaughlan says, if you concede that point, that victims of
:05:43. > :05:46.state violence can pursue justice, you are halfway there? Well, there
:05:46. > :05:52.is nothing to stop anyone in this community from pursuing justice at
:05:52. > :05:55.the moment. We accept the right for people to do that. What we do not
:05:55. > :05:59.accept is that they should be denied that right. That is
:05:59. > :06:03.precisely what Sinn Fein are proposing. In any event, I am far
:06:03. > :06:07.from convinced that a truth commission will help us to get to
:06:07. > :06:10.the real truth. For example, Martin McGuinness had the opportunity in
:06:10. > :06:14.the Saville Inquiry to come clean on what the IRA were doing on the
:06:14. > :06:19.day in which those people were killed in Londonderry. He said he
:06:19. > :06:22.was bound by a code of secrecy, as a member of the IRA, and he could
:06:22. > :06:26.not tell all of the truth about what they were doing that day.
:06:26. > :06:31.Equally, Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, denies he was ever in
:06:31. > :06:35.the IRA. What prospect have we of getting the trip, even if there was
:06:35. > :06:42.a truth commission? Why on earth would we sacrifice Justice for
:06:42. > :06:45.truth that is only partial? Truth is important. If we are going to
:06:45. > :06:49.refer to Martin McGuinness's evidence, Martin McGuinness gave
:06:49. > :06:56.evidence about the IRA and he gave that on the basis of being second
:06:56. > :07:00.and command. He made it clear that the IRA was not active. But he said
:07:00. > :07:07.there was a code of honour, by which he was bound. Because he
:07:07. > :07:11.asked for names. Doesn't truth imply names? He was there to help
:07:11. > :07:15.Savell understand what happened on Bloody Sunday, what the IRA role
:07:15. > :07:18.was on the day. He spoke as someone who can speak with authority in
:07:18. > :07:21.that subject matter. There was an attempt by the legal
:07:21. > :07:26.representatives of the British Army to get him to start to name people.
:07:26. > :07:30.He refused to do that. It would you not expect people in the truth
:07:30. > :07:34.commission to name names? I think we can make it possible for people
:07:34. > :07:38.to divulge everything they know, if we do in fact want to know...
:07:38. > :07:43.Including names? All of the truth, we have to make it possible for
:07:43. > :07:49.people to do that. I think that people would go before a tribunal,
:07:49. > :07:53.name people that might go to jail? I don't think that would happen. If
:07:53. > :07:56.we are objectively interested in the truth, I do not expect
:07:56. > :08:00.loyalists or British army commanders to go and name names.
:08:00. > :08:03.But if we create the circumstances where people can tell all that they
:08:03. > :08:08.know, without jeopardising themselves or other people, we
:08:08. > :08:13.might get more of the truth than we have. Is that an halfway house?
:08:13. > :08:17.That is an amnesty. We have an effective amnesty for the Special
:08:17. > :08:21.Branch and British army commanders. How many of them do you know that
:08:21. > :08:24.have gone to court? That is not the case at all. Of course it is.
:08:24. > :08:29.there is evidence against any individual in Northern Ireland that
:08:29. > :08:31.has committed a crime, and that evidence is sufficient for the
:08:31. > :08:35.Public Prosecution Service to bring prosecution, there is nothing any
:08:35. > :08:40.politician can do to interfere with that process. We do have separation
:08:40. > :08:44.of the judiciary. What about creating an atmosphere where names
:08:44. > :08:48.can be named? Would that not be very important to a lot of people?
:08:48. > :08:52.Of course I want to see people having the truth about what
:08:52. > :08:55.happened to their loved ones. Take the Kingsmill families, the worst
:08:55. > :09:02.atrocities of the Troubles. They have never had it justice. They
:09:03. > :09:05.have had denial after denial. This week we had a claim that there are
:09:05. > :09:10.IRA commanders in South Armagh, who would like to talk about what they
:09:10. > :09:14.have done. Well, here is an opportunity for the republican
:09:14. > :09:19.movement to show some good faith, left those commanders come forward.
:09:19. > :09:22.There is a process, a tribunal in Dublin, where they can come forward
:09:22. > :09:26.and give the information to the tribunal. That would be helpful in
:09:26. > :09:30.helping us to get at the truth of what happened in some of these
:09:30. > :09:33.incidents. Let's see some good faith for a change, from the
:09:33. > :09:38.republican movement. Let's see them take a step towards the shared
:09:38. > :09:42.future that they talk about. In dealing with the legacy of the past,
:09:42. > :09:49.come clean. Tell us what happened. There are ways in which that can be
:09:49. > :09:55.done. At the moment, all we get is obfuscation. Go-ahead. I just want
:09:55. > :09:58.to address the tribunal. It was set up to investigate a specific
:09:58. > :10:02.incident. That is my understanding, I have never been to it because I
:10:02. > :10:06.don't know anything about that incident. My understanding is that
:10:06. > :10:12.the IRA people went and gave evidence. That is good faith.
:10:12. > :10:15.has been a statement in a recent edition, talking about
:10:15. > :10:21.reconciliation meaning and comfortable conversations. The new
:10:21. > :10:28.initiatives are required. Republicans must be producing a
:10:28. > :10:34.sensitised response. You do not seem to be following the diktat of
:10:34. > :10:39.that. Indeed we are. This is our contribution to finding the truth.
:10:39. > :10:43.We are absolutely convinced, and unless someone can convince us
:10:43. > :10:47.otherwise, we are convinced he will never get justice without the truth.
:10:47. > :10:51.We are trying to devise a mechanism, in agreement with the Unionists,
:10:51. > :10:56.that is prepared to look at all of the truth. If you only look at some
:10:56. > :11:00.of the truth, only asks some of the questions, you will only get some
:11:01. > :11:04.of the truth. At the present time, IRA members that want to go to the
:11:04. > :11:06.police station and say, I did this and I did that, under the terms of
:11:06. > :11:11.the Good Friday Agreement, providing those incidents happened
:11:11. > :11:15.before it was signed, they would be in jeopardy of going to court and
:11:15. > :11:19.could be sentenced to a maximum of two years. That has still not been
:11:19. > :11:24.sufficient to bring forward the kind of information that survivors
:11:24. > :11:27.are looking for. Let's see if we can... It truth cannot be a
:11:27. > :11:35.substitute for justice. That is what Sinn Fein are asking. It is
:11:35. > :11:38.not on. Prisoner release, two year sentences, you have accepted this.
:11:38. > :11:43.Let's go the extra distance. community out there has compromised.
:11:43. > :11:48.It is now time for the paramilitaries to make the
:11:48. > :11:53.compromises. You want the truth? want the truth, but we also want
:11:53. > :11:56.justice. Truth cannot be a substitute. I'm going to last year
:11:56. > :12:00.but this question. The CRC report said that we are still a very
:12:00. > :12:04.deeply divided society. Do you accept that the inability to agree
:12:04. > :12:08.on the past is inhibiting coming together in the future? Yes. What
:12:08. > :12:11.we have done in the past and what we have done up to the present has
:12:11. > :12:16.not released the truth, has not addressed the needs of victims and
:12:16. > :12:20.survivors. Peter Robinson has outlined our vision for a shared
:12:20. > :12:23.future. I think we have to deal with the legacy of the past. We do
:12:23. > :12:26.want to see Northern Ireland looking forward. But we've got to
:12:26. > :12:36.address the hurt, the pain, the feeling of injustice that remains
:12:36. > :12:37.
:12:37. > :12:42.Peter Robinson wants less negativity from the media. He has a
:12:42. > :12:45.point. But it is beside the point because most news in Northern
:12:46. > :12:50.Ireland isn't generated by news outlets, it is generated by
:12:50. > :12:53.government and bodies funded by government, with politicians
:12:53. > :12:57.playing along however depressing the headlines. Take David Simpson.
:12:57. > :13:02.He studied in Westminster and claimed 756 people died here last
:13:02. > :13:07.winter due to fuel poverty. This claim comes from a group called the
:13:07. > :13:11.Northern Ireland fuel poverty Coalition. It seems our seasonal
:13:11. > :13:14.mortality variation is due to cold housing. Which is absurd, not least
:13:14. > :13:19.because three-quarters of deaths take place in hospitals and nursing
:13:19. > :13:24.homes. One of the organisations in the coalition is that consumer
:13:24. > :13:29.commission, a quango funded by the Department of Enterprise. Has he
:13:29. > :13:33.taken aside and told them to stop the negativity? Fuel poverty is an
:13:33. > :13:38.example of what the Americans call poverty pimping, exaggerating
:13:38. > :13:42.problems and to lobby for a cause. Child poverty is to fist --
:13:42. > :13:46.statistically defined so it will affect a huge amount of the
:13:46. > :13:49.population unless everybody has the same income. But the new programme
:13:49. > :13:53.for government from Peter Robinson pays full tribute to this concept
:13:53. > :13:57.and promises to reduce it. The way it is defined means that Stormont
:13:57. > :14:03.cannot reduce it, ensuring negative headlines for years to come. Has
:14:03. > :14:09.Peter Robinson considered what investors make of this vision of
:14:09. > :14:12.Northern Ireland of starving children and freezing pensioners?
:14:12. > :14:16.Martin Wilson used Dickensian to describe Northern Ireland, one of
:14:16. > :14:21.the richest societies on the face of the Earth. It is not just
:14:21. > :14:24.poverty that is being pumped. Every issue has an army of public bodies
:14:24. > :14:30.and publicly funded bodies threatening doom and gloom if their
:14:30. > :14:33.pet cause isn't pandered to. An increasingly hard-pressed media
:14:33. > :14:37.continues to repeat them. Peter Robinson should know how the
:14:37. > :14:41.balance of power has shifted. His executive employs 161 press
:14:41. > :14:45.officers, more than all newspaper journalists in Belfast. Much of the
:14:45. > :14:50.clamour for public cash is, by definition, a left-leaning agenda.
:14:50. > :14:54.Why has the instinctively centre right DUP bought into it? Stormont
:14:54. > :14:57.is a consensus system. It covers not just the parties but the
:14:57. > :15:01.political and activist class, who had been given funding and
:15:01. > :15:04.positions to press for more funding and better positions. Everyone has
:15:04. > :15:08.a seat at the table, where they can keep ministers in the hope that
:15:08. > :15:18.they drop their wallet. When the DUP signed up to power-sharing it
:15:18. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:25.was drawn into the self-serving Peter Robinson should take aim at
:15:25. > :15:29.the negativity. Now, as pressure mounts on young
:15:29. > :15:33.people entering the job market, any real life work experience they can
:15:33. > :15:36.get is like gold dust. But imagine a programme that also brings
:15:36. > :15:38.schools from different denominations together and builds
:15:38. > :15:46.links between Northern Ireland and companies in America. Does that
:15:46. > :15:51.sound too good to be true? This report from Strabane.
:15:51. > :15:56.Not so very long ago, the border town of Strabane had one of the
:15:56. > :16:00.worst rates of unemployment in the These days, it's not that bad, but
:16:00. > :16:05.it's not that good either. So these young people will need all
:16:05. > :16:09.the ammunition they can get to get into the job market.
:16:10. > :16:19.Well thanks to an innovative project linking their schools with
:16:20. > :16:25.
:16:25. > :16:29.overseas businesses, they might Hi, Lynsey. I'm good thank you.
:16:29. > :16:35.I've got some very enthusiastic students here behind me and
:16:35. > :16:40.teachers. And we also have the BBC television programme here as well.
:16:40. > :16:44.Today, business studies pupils from Holy Cross College and Strabane
:16:44. > :16:49.academy are at the district council offices. Delighted to welcome you
:16:49. > :16:52.to Strabane... Taking part in a video conference with a company in
:16:52. > :16:56.America. That's because these pupils are going to carry out
:16:56. > :17:01.market research for that company which is considering selling its
:17:01. > :17:07.products in Europe. The students will meet up with the
:17:07. > :17:11.company, in this case it is a company who make wall coverings.
:17:11. > :17:16.They are going to discuss the project, discuss maybe some of the
:17:16. > :17:20.aims that hey hope to get out of it, then they'll go back to school and
:17:20. > :17:24.develop questionnaires, they'll do the research here on the teachers'
:17:24. > :17:28.provision. We'll compile a report and then a final video conference
:17:28. > :17:33.will take place to present the information.
:17:33. > :17:35.One of the things that attracted me to the project was the fact that
:17:35. > :17:41.pupils could get involved in a practical way. It's an opportunity
:17:41. > :17:45.to bring the subject alive to them. The job market's becoming so much
:17:45. > :17:50.more competitive that this is giving an age of university and job
:17:50. > :17:54.applications and an inviegt into the world of work. -- insight. It's
:17:54. > :17:57.a farm of work experience for them. The project is the brainchild of
:17:57. > :18:01.the export clever programme. Companies here in Northern Ireland
:18:01. > :18:06.are also linking up with schools in America. But what makes it even
:18:06. > :18:11.more impressive is that it's also bringing together pupils from
:18:11. > :18:16.across the religious divide. There's been invaluable
:18:16. > :18:21.collaboration between the schools in Strabane. It's a model for all
:18:21. > :18:25.schools in all post-primary schools which are working towards close
:18:25. > :18:31.collaboration at staff and student level. This particular project was
:18:31. > :18:36.a vehicle for us to move that collaboration to a level very, very
:18:36. > :18:39.quickly. Of course the problem with digital technology is that it
:18:39. > :18:43.doesn't always perform to order. But the whole project certainly
:18:43. > :18:47.seems to have impressed the pupils who took part last year.
:18:47. > :18:53.I thought it was good because it helped us with our business studies
:18:53. > :18:58.course work and research because we had to research the findings and
:18:58. > :19:04.present them to Beth over Skype so I thought it was good. It might
:19:04. > :19:11.help us get a job in the future, we can put it on our CV and say that
:19:11. > :19:15.we spoke to the girl in America and that might help us get a job.
:19:15. > :19:20.was strange with the different accent but they were OK to
:19:21. > :19:25.understand us. It was a good exweerpbs. Thought it would be very
:19:25. > :19:29.beneficial a project for us and for the company -- experience. I
:19:29. > :19:33.thought that it would bring to notice Northern Ireland and tell
:19:33. > :19:38.other countries in the euro that we are able to be invested in. That's
:19:38. > :19:41.certainly the hope of the economic development staff at Strabane
:19:41. > :19:47.district council. We were in America with companies
:19:47. > :19:49.last year and it's like pushing an open door. We saw saw Chamber of
:19:49. > :19:53.Commerce, business federation, universities and they were all
:19:53. > :20:00.eager to work with companies in Europe and especially in Ireland.
:20:00. > :20:04.This is year two. Year one we are funding, year two we are not and
:20:04. > :20:14.it's still going so it's proved positive that it's sustaining
:20:14. > :20:14.
:20:14. > :20:19.Julia Paul in Strabane. Now, a badly needed confidence
:20:19. > :20:23.booster or a bankers' charter condemning generations to economic
:20:23. > :20:25.bondage? Two views on the European stability treaty which is to be put
:20:25. > :20:29.to referendum in the republic, I'm joined from Dublin by the
:20:29. > :20:36.representatives from the yes and no camps Dominic Hanagan, Labour's
:20:36. > :20:40.chairman of the European Affairs Committee and Sinn Fein's Foreign
:20:40. > :20:43.Affairs spokesman Patrick magistrate lock lan. A no-vote
:20:43. > :20:52.would condemn generations in Northern Ireland to economic
:20:52. > :20:58.confusion and potential disaster surely -- McLoughlin? Because of
:20:58. > :21:01.the action taken by an independent citizen in the '80s, he created
:21:01. > :21:05.this trend of referendums in the Irish people. So we can take a
:21:05. > :21:08.stand, not just for our own people, but for people across Europe
:21:08. > :21:11.against this mad austerity strategy that our Governments are insisting
:21:11. > :21:16.on with no real solution to our economic crisis.
:21:16. > :21:22.But they say it's needed to create stability as it says on the tin, if
:21:22. > :21:26.you like? What is the alternative? The only person who seems to need
:21:26. > :21:29.this is Angela Merkel. There's no economists I've heard on left or
:21:29. > :21:32.right who believes this treaty is any kind of a solution to our
:21:32. > :21:36.crisis and the problems being, the core problems being the sovereign
:21:36. > :21:41.debt crisis, the banking crisis, investment and unemployment crisis.
:21:41. > :21:47.There's no comprehensive leadership or strategy to address the issues.
:21:47. > :21:51.What we have is this austerity treaty condemning us to very
:21:51. > :21:56.limited expenditure and capacity to address our crisis across Europe.
:21:56. > :21:59.It's a daft proposition. OK, Mr Hanagan, how will you sell to it
:22:00. > :22:04.the Irish people? We'll sell from a basis of the benefits. What we see
:22:04. > :22:08.this treaty doing is giving a sense of governance to the euro that
:22:08. > :22:12.currently doesn't exist. The euro's been around for ten years now. It's
:22:12. > :22:15.had many problems over the last number of years. What we don't have
:22:15. > :22:19.is a system to ensure that each of the countries that are members of
:22:19. > :22:24.the euro put in place a mechanism to ensure they don't spend too much,
:22:24. > :22:27.that they don't go into too much debt. So the purpose of this fiscal
:22:27. > :22:32.compact is to build on the current mechanisms that are out there such
:22:32. > :22:35.as the six pack and ensure that any country that tries to break the
:22:35. > :22:39.rules is brought back into line in the process creating stability
:22:39. > :22:43.within Europe, creating the right environment for people to invest in
:22:43. > :22:46.new businesses, to start new businesses, to grow businesses, to
:22:46. > :22:50.create jobs and to get people back at work. We need the see consumer
:22:51. > :22:54.confidence, we need to see investor confidence and this new fiscal
:22:54. > :22:57.compact will do just that. It will put back confidence into the heart
:22:57. > :23:02.of the European economy. The problem is, it doesn't tell you
:23:02. > :23:08.or help you in any way to reduce the deficit, it just says you have
:23:08. > :23:12.to do it? Well, what needs to be taken is in relation to growth
:23:12. > :23:15.measures that we are looking at in relation to how we are going to
:23:15. > :23:19.combat problems of youth unemployment, how we are going to
:23:19. > :23:24.make it easier for businesses to set up, we need to pursue a growth
:23:24. > :23:28.agenda at the same time as fiscal consolidation. The fiscal compact
:23:28. > :23:32.is just one part of what Europe is doing to try to get the economies
:23:32. > :23:36.of all our member states back moving. It shouldn't be looked at
:23:36. > :23:40.in isolation, it has to be looked at in relation to what is being
:23:40. > :23:43.done elsewhere to make sure we get people in work. You cannot just
:23:43. > :23:47.treat this as one thing in isolation. There are other things
:23:47. > :23:53.that are being done across Europe by governments there. Here in
:23:53. > :24:02.Dublin two weeks ago, we brought ining an action plan for jobs, 270
:24:02. > :24:06.people to start new businesses and all those things, we are pursuing
:24:06. > :24:09.both agendas. They have to be done together. It's only by doing them
:24:09. > :24:13.together that we can actually get out of this crisis we are in.
:24:13. > :24:17.want to address the point that Mr McLoughlin raised about the only
:24:17. > :24:21.person being interested in it is Angela Merkel. We see for the
:24:21. > :24:25.second time that sensitive information about the Irish economy
:24:25. > :24:31.is being banded around the Bundestag. Are you really not just
:24:31. > :24:34.being a nodding dog for the Franco- German joint leadership of Europe?
:24:34. > :24:37.Let's be clear here, this is sensitive information and it was a
:24:37. > :24:42.report that was done by a third party. It contained information
:24:42. > :24:45.that had already been published on our own websites. There was nothing
:24:45. > :24:51.particularly sensitive about it. There is an issue about whether or
:24:51. > :24:55.not we'd be debating our budget in other jurisdictions and whether or
:24:55. > :25:00.not we should be careful about the amount of information that gets out
:25:00. > :25:05.there. But the information that was leaked by this report was mostly
:25:05. > :25:09.stuff that was already in public domain. You are shaking your head,
:25:09. > :25:14.Mr McLoughlin? I just wonder what country I'm living in. We have
:25:14. > :25:20.450,000 people out of work, tens of thousands emigrating every year, we
:25:20. > :25:23.have businesses closing, hundreds and hundreds every day, we have an
:25:23. > :25:27.economic catastrophe here in Ireland because we have been satled
:25:27. > :25:32.with private sector banking debt. Is there any justice for people
:25:32. > :25:36.after now budget off budget of austerity? No. What we have is
:25:36. > :25:40.basically Angela Merkel's insistence backed up by Sarkozy
:25:40. > :25:45.that the narrative has to be that the peripheral states were
:25:45. > :25:49.wreckless and Germany's the responsibility. The reality of the
:25:49. > :25:52.core states, their banks wrecklessly lent under the European
:25:52. > :25:56.monetary union to, in Ireland's case, private banking institutions
:25:56. > :25:58.and in some cases sovereign Governments and they are not
:25:58. > :26:04.willing to share responsibility in appropriate fashion. Our
:26:04. > :26:08.Government's failed to renegotiate all of this and get a fair deal, as
:26:08. > :26:11.promised. Now we have this spin about growth. It's a catastrophe.
:26:11. > :26:16.We are re-negotiating. We have done that. You need to get your act
:26:16. > :26:20.together. We can't do it overnight. We said at the time of the last
:26:20. > :26:23.election. Where are you promises to the people? We said we'd keep
:26:23. > :26:27.working at this and get as much of the deal re-negotiated. We have
:26:27. > :26:34.managed to deliver in certain areas and we'll keep at it. We are trying
:26:34. > :26:38.to re-negotiate the things and we are not giving up on it. We
:26:38. > :26:44.continue to do it. If there were some kind of write down of
:26:44. > :26:51.outstanding dt, would that make you more supportive of the treaty? --
:26:51. > :26:56.debt? It's asking us to reach a 0.5 deficit ceiling. Under the Troika
:26:56. > :27:00.agreement, we have to get back to a 3% deficit by 2015, meaning that
:27:00. > :27:05.that extends our austerity for another number of years. In
:27:05. > :27:07.relation to the other point, it's the ratio of GDP at 60%, we have to
:27:07. > :27:11.get back to that, nobody believes we can do that saddled with this
:27:11. > :27:16.debt. There's no plan or solution for our people, just more crazy
:27:16. > :27:19.austerity targets set for us. All things being even, if we hadn't
:27:19. > :27:22.have been saddled with European banking debt, we wouldn't be in
:27:22. > :27:26.this difficult situation, certainly nowhere near it. Mr Hanagan,
:27:26. > :27:31.there's always a danger that people will vote on more than the treaty.
:27:31. > :27:36.One Senator said yesterday that the people of Rosscommon would question
:27:36. > :27:40.this campaign if steps were not taken to tackle A&E. This could be
:27:40. > :27:45.a lot more about just a European treaty? It could be but the
:27:45. > :27:48.important thing is for all of us around the table, including Patrick
:27:48. > :27:53.is that we put the case to the people as to why they need to
:27:53. > :27:59.support this treaty, what it means. This is not a referendum about
:27:59. > :28:05.whether or not we need additional beds in a hospital in the Midwest
:28:05. > :28:09.or a renk Dom on the performance on the Government so far, it's about
:28:09. > :28:13.where we see ourselves in relation to the future of Europe --
:28:13. > :28:18.referendum. Do we see ourselves as part of the future... But there is
:28:18. > :28:21.no solution to our crisis. This is part of the solution. Angela
:28:21. > :28:25.Merkel's brainchild... It's part of the solution. It's not the whole
:28:25. > :28:29.solution, you are right. Indeed today... We are talking to
:28:29. > :28:32.colleagues about how we can fight youth unemployment. In a couple of
:28:32. > :28:37.seconds, would you like to see Ireland come out of the eurozone?
:28:37. > :28:40.No, no. Let's be very clear, if Ireland rejects this proposition,
:28:40. > :28:45.we are still within the European Union, we are still members of the
:28:45. > :28:50.euro, so we are not saddled with more of these crazy austerity
:28:50. > :28:54.policies, so there's to be no scare tactics in relation to this. This
:28:54. > :28:57.treaty is an intergovernmental agreement, it's not a European
:28:57. > :28:59.treaty. Thank you very much gentlemen for your thoughts.
:28:59. > :29:09.That is where we leave it this time around. We'll do it again next week
:29:09. > :29:12.
:29:12. > :29:15.at the usual times and I hope you People say Northern Ireland