:00:24. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week, the
:00:27. > :00:32.politicians have their say on the latest revelations about clerical
:00:32. > :00:36.sex abuse and the role of Cardinal Brady in dealing with it. Is the
:00:36. > :00:40.continuing scandal hastening the day when women come to the fore in
:00:40. > :00:45.all aspects of Catholicism? How the recession is driving more families
:00:45. > :00:51.to charity food banks. And luring home the Irish diaspora, but what
:00:51. > :00:54.about the Prods? The controversy engulfing the
:00:55. > :01:00.Catholic primate Cardinal Shaun Payne if to the political turn to
:01:00. > :01:03.them both sides of the border. -- Cardle Sean Brady. The Irish Prime
:01:03. > :01:07.Minister said anyone who did not deal with the extent of child sex
:01:07. > :01:11.abuse should not hold a position of authority and Alastair Macdonald
:01:11. > :01:16.has said bluntly the cardinal should go. He is with me now. Mr
:01:16. > :01:20.McDonnell, why is it so clear cut for you? It is not so clear cut, I
:01:20. > :01:25.cannot recall saying he should go, I don't know where that came from.
:01:25. > :01:30.I have made some blunt comments. The issue is Brendan Smyth was a
:01:31. > :01:36.very evil man and had an appalling track record and ruined a lot of
:01:36. > :01:44.lives and is still running lives. Let me stop you, you said there
:01:44. > :01:49.Cardinal Brady in 2010 met the criteria. You think he should
:01:49. > :01:53.resign. That is right, it is up to him to possess his position.
:01:53. > :01:58.have said he should resign. It is up to him to reassess his position.
:01:58. > :02:02.I am not running or managing the Catholic Church or anywhere else.
:02:02. > :02:06.By a politician, a practising Catholic, the father of four young
:02:06. > :02:11.children, I am acutely sensitive to the issues raised by this programme
:02:11. > :02:14.last night. I have talked to a lot of people today and a lot of people
:02:14. > :02:17.are distressed and concerned. It is not an issue for stunts or gimmicks
:02:17. > :02:21.or demands for resignation, it is an issue that has to be taken
:02:21. > :02:26.deadly seriously. Lives have been ruined. There are victims to have
:02:26. > :02:31.been severely hurt. The point I was making is that Brendan Smyth, as a
:02:31. > :02:35.result of the mishandling of events in 1975, Brendan Smyth was allowed
:02:35. > :02:40.to continue for a number of years. A lot of the blame has to rest with
:02:40. > :02:44.the order that he was involved in and some of them should be coming
:02:44. > :02:48.forward. A want to make it clear, using the criteria set by the
:02:48. > :02:56.cardinal himself two years ago have been met, you think it is time he
:02:56. > :03:00.went? In my opinion and -- under the opinion of a lot of people, the
:03:00. > :03:05.criteria he said, that he would resign if they were met, and people
:03:05. > :03:09.feel they have been met. I'm glad we have cleared that up. Martina
:03:09. > :03:12.Anderson, for Sinn Fein, Martin McGuinness called for his
:03:12. > :03:17.resignation two years ago but fell short of that today, he said he
:03:17. > :03:20.should consider his position. Why hasn't he gone further? I think
:03:20. > :03:25.Martin McGuinness's position has been clear. He says he should
:03:25. > :03:29.consider the wisdom of his position, which was the position laid out
:03:29. > :03:35.yesterday, that he should resign and I would agree. I think the
:03:35. > :03:42.criteria that he said for resignation has been fulfilled and
:03:42. > :03:51.I don't think there are any space in this society for anyone to
:03:51. > :03:55.conceal child sex abuse, in fact conceal child rape. Jonathan Del
:03:55. > :04:01.and buyers junior ministers have been involved in engaging with
:04:01. > :04:05.victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse and we have
:04:05. > :04:08.heard harrowing, heart-wrenching stories from those victims about
:04:08. > :04:12.what happened to them and their childhood. The Cardinal has spoken
:04:12. > :04:15.of his sense of betrayal that this happened, that this continued to
:04:15. > :04:19.happen. He has been praised within the Church for the ceaseless work
:04:19. > :04:24.he has done in recent years to make sure it did not happen again. What
:04:24. > :04:27.purpose would be served by his resignation? Well, I believe that
:04:27. > :04:31.his reputation will -- I believe the his reputation will damage done
:04:31. > :04:37.to him personally because of what has happened and what has been
:04:37. > :04:42.revealed. When we look at the courage Brendan Boland, a 14-year-
:04:42. > :04:47.old child, and let's not forget in the middle of this a child who
:04:47. > :04:54.actually went to a priest in the first instance and that priest took
:04:54. > :05:00.that child to his father and did the right thing by doing that and I
:05:00. > :05:04.was absolutely paint when I listen to that programme, that documentary
:05:04. > :05:11.-- paint, as I believe are many Catholics, of which I am one. And I
:05:11. > :05:15.know many good priests in our society who are also hurting as a
:05:15. > :05:20.result of the reputation. Do you not think the Cardinal is hurting?
:05:20. > :05:24.Absolutely, he must be, and therefore because of that I believe
:05:24. > :05:28.he should do as Martin McGuinness has suggested he should do, he
:05:28. > :05:32.should reconsider and look at the wisdom of the position that he
:05:32. > :05:38.adopted. There is a lot of pain and hurt in the Catholic tradition
:05:38. > :05:44.because of what happened. Jonathan Bell from the DUP has here now. We
:05:44. > :05:47.were talking about political stunts, your party has been said to have a
:05:47. > :05:52.political stunt bike getting your party to write to the Chief
:05:52. > :05:56.Constable to ask him to pursue a possible criminal case against the
:05:56. > :06:00.cardinal. Why? I think this is a major issue today, not only in
:06:00. > :06:06.Northern Ireland but also in the Republic of Ireland, right across
:06:06. > :06:10.the UK news of an issue of the next magnitude and significance. What,
:06:10. > :06:13.as somebody who has worked with children who have been sexually
:06:13. > :06:17.abused for 21 years and my professional life, I have seen the
:06:17. > :06:20.after-effects of sexual abuse in the self-harm, in the young people
:06:21. > :06:26.who sell the beast that ties with drugs and alcohol, in broken
:06:26. > :06:30.relationships and this failure to sustain jobs and the long life term
:06:30. > :06:35.trauma and the life sentence but it gives to children. What it has
:06:35. > :06:40.raised to date is a concern that was first raised by the SDLP on
:06:40. > :06:45.Good morning Ulster this morning, which is that we have clear
:06:45. > :06:49.legislation from 1967 which states very clearly that if you are aware
:06:49. > :06:52.of a criminal offence of which child sexual abuse and child rape
:06:52. > :06:57.is clearly one of the most significant criminal offences, it
:06:57. > :07:03.is your duty to pass it on to a constable and for that to be
:07:03. > :07:08.properly investigated. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. Father
:07:08. > :07:12.Smyth had not been convicted of criminal offence in 1975. If you
:07:12. > :07:17.are aware of a criminal offence having occurred, child sexual abuse
:07:17. > :07:20.is unlawful, it is illegal. If you are aware it has occurred then it
:07:20. > :07:25.is your duty to pass that on to the police for investigation and is is
:07:25. > :07:29.now for the police to go where the evidence leads them. Nobody is
:07:29. > :07:34.above the law. We are all equal to the law. The message must go out
:07:34. > :07:39.very clearly that anybody, in whatever walk of life, if they are
:07:39. > :07:43.aware of child sexual abuse it is their duty to pass that on to the
:07:43. > :07:49.police, to have it investigated as a joint protocol investigation and
:07:49. > :07:54.failure to do so is a major error. We do not have a monopoly on rights.
:07:54. > :07:59.I spent years as a GP, I am fully aware that with many children who
:07:59. > :08:03.had been abused and helped support them and get them on their feet and
:08:03. > :08:08.get their life together. This is a very serious, sober issue. We don't
:08:08. > :08:13.need to dramatise it. It is not dramatising it, to ask
:08:13. > :08:18.the justice committee of the Assembly. It was a stunt, quite
:08:18. > :08:21.frankly understand by that. The point is this. I am sorry if you
:08:21. > :08:25.think it's a stunned. He is pointing out the criminal law of
:08:25. > :08:28.1967, it is the duty of every person who believes an offence has
:08:28. > :08:32.been committed to give the information to a constable.
:08:32. > :08:36.accept that. Why is it a stunt? There are ways of dealing with
:08:36. > :08:41.these things, there are issues dealt with every day. It is about
:08:41. > :08:43.publicity, today. This issue is very sober, very sensible, needs to
:08:43. > :08:48.be fashionably dealt with and children need to be protected at
:08:48. > :08:52.all costs. -- rationally dealt with. If there has been a crime, it will
:08:52. > :08:58.be dealt with in due course. Calmly and rationally. But let's not
:08:58. > :09:03.convict anybody here. On speculation. We have to be rational
:09:03. > :09:09.here. All of us including Cardinal Brady are subject to the law. I
:09:09. > :09:13.think we have to do that and we cannot jump to conclusions. Asking
:09:13. > :09:21.the police to investigate is not jumping to conclusions. Do you
:09:21. > :09:25.believe it is a political stump? stunt will stop I don't believe the
:09:25. > :09:28.committee has the responsibility to refer anything to the PSNI, it is a
:09:28. > :09:32.scrutinising committee, and defeat was to embark upon that kind of
:09:32. > :09:36.journey I think the committee would be doing little else but hearing
:09:36. > :09:39.cases on having the referred. I think the way we managed it today
:09:39. > :09:43.and the Executive, there was a discussion, a wind going to the
:09:43. > :09:49.details, but we had a discussion with the justice Mr and the him to
:09:49. > :09:53.be giving whatever consideration he has to give and Jonathan and I know
:09:53. > :09:56.the her tanned the pain that is out there in our community and in our
:09:56. > :10:02.society and you know, I just think we need to be very sensitive to
:10:02. > :10:10.that this evening. What purpose do you think would be served by the
:10:10. > :10:14.resignation of the cardinal? think, I'm not going to go down
:10:14. > :10:19.there, but my concern is this, that a lot of people because Cardinal
:10:19. > :10:25.Sean Brady is a very decent man, an honourable man, I spent a good deal
:10:25. > :10:28.to date said -- with a Protestant man who said he was a very
:10:28. > :10:31.honourable man and there was a problem two years ago, he was given
:10:31. > :10:35.the benefit of the doubt. The difficulty is now a lot of
:10:35. > :10:43.committed, genuine practising Catholics are now feeling in
:10:43. > :10:45.despair and frustrated that this bite. It is a difficult... Is there
:10:45. > :10:48.a danger it becomes a witch-hunt and it is hard to find a
:10:48. > :10:52.replacement cardinal who had not in some way been involved in some way
:10:53. > :10:56.in dealing with some kind of child sex abuse? I agree with you
:10:56. > :11:00.entirely and we have to move very cautiously and slowly. It is not a
:11:00. > :11:05.question of jumping to conclusions. All I am telling you is all day
:11:05. > :11:09.today I was meeting with people who are genuine, honest, sincere people,
:11:09. > :11:13.and they are in despair and they feel bewildered and betrayed that
:11:13. > :11:17.this demon has come back to haunt us again. People at the end of the
:11:17. > :11:21.day, the issue is not about me and not about any of us in this studio,
:11:21. > :11:25.it is about children who need protection. Is this an issue that
:11:25. > :11:28.should be left to the Catholic Church? Yes, I am a Protestant,
:11:28. > :11:33.member of a Protestant church, and it is for the Roman Catholic Church
:11:33. > :11:37.to decide what was be the central focus, the children. So why go
:11:37. > :11:42.there just is committee involved? What we are looking at his is clear
:11:42. > :11:47.from the 1967 legislation, anybody aware of any criminal offence and I
:11:47. > :11:51.have said anybody and any criminal offence, has a duty to pass that on
:11:51. > :11:55.because when information is not passed on often it can lead to
:11:55. > :12:05.children being multiplies abused so it is time for the police to look
:12:05. > :12:05.
:12:06. > :12:09.at the evidence and go where it Are we facing into a Catholic
:12:09. > :12:15.Spring? It's possible. Last Sunday 200 people picketed the home of the
:12:15. > :12:17.Papal Nuncio to Ireland. That wouldn't have been particularly
:12:17. > :12:20.surprising given the scale of animosity against the institutional
:12:20. > :12:24.church but this protest was organised by priests. We haven't
:12:24. > :12:27.seen anything like that before. And in the next few days, priests will
:12:27. > :12:30.convene a conference in Dublin to discuss setting up an assembly of
:12:30. > :12:33.the Catholics of Ireland. They are not asking the permission of
:12:33. > :12:36.bishops this time. The revolutionary ardour, if that is
:12:37. > :12:40.what it is, is driven by several things. There is the humiliation of
:12:40. > :12:44.priests like Brian Darcy and others who have aired their personal
:12:44. > :12:47.opinions. Priests, it seems aren't supposed to have personal opinions.
:12:47. > :12:50.The Association of Catholic Priests has conducted its own survey to ask
:12:51. > :12:54.the Catholics of Ireland what they really believe and they have worked
:12:54. > :12:58.out that it differs greatly from what Rome teaches in relation to
:12:58. > :13:01.the ordination of women and the celibate priesthood. Well, the
:13:01. > :13:05.straight-laced faithful say, the word of God isn't up for debate.
:13:05. > :13:09.You don't take a vote on it, the truth never changes. That's Rome's
:13:10. > :13:13.line. More incessantly than ever the Pope is saying, you are in or
:13:13. > :13:17.you are out, you buy the whole package or you can go and accept
:13:17. > :13:20.that you are a Protestant and be done with it. And there is
:13:20. > :13:23.animosity growing in the country with even priests writing blog
:13:23. > :13:26.entries raking up Benedict's Nazi past in the Hitler Youth Movement,
:13:26. > :13:30.accusing him of a blitzkreig against the liberals in the church.
:13:30. > :13:33.This is all heavy stuff. But what can it lead to? Well, one
:13:33. > :13:36.possibility is that the priests will be cowed as they have been
:13:37. > :13:40.before, that the scale of the challenge before them will prove to
:13:40. > :13:44.be too great. They can protest nicely, call their pickets vigils
:13:44. > :13:47.and plead with the Pope to be gentle with them, or they can
:13:47. > :13:51.assert firmly that they will break this church in two again rather
:13:51. > :13:56.than have it crush them. Their problem is that priests who accept
:13:56. > :14:00.further humiliation will be no use to anyone. We have the perfect
:14:00. > :14:04.reminder at the head of the church of what happens when a priest only
:14:04. > :14:07.does what he is told. Sean Brady is an example to every priest of the
:14:07. > :14:11.pathetic outcome of a slavish obedience and the denial of reason
:14:11. > :14:14.and conscience. The other possibility is that priests who
:14:14. > :14:19.simply can't stomach the church in its present form will just leave.
:14:19. > :14:22.That is what most of them do already. And then what? Then we run
:14:23. > :14:26.so low on priests that we hardly ever see them. Local churches will
:14:26. > :14:29.be run by lay committees which means by women. They will lead
:14:29. > :14:33.eucharistic services and the available priest will drop by once
:14:33. > :14:36.a month. And the link to Rome by which the pure message is conveyed
:14:36. > :14:39.intact to a docile and penitent people will be broken anyway. Go
:14:39. > :14:44.into a Catholic church on a Saturday night or a Sunday morning
:14:44. > :14:47.in Belfast or Galway or Derry or Cork in ten years from now and you
:14:47. > :14:52.can be sure that the person at the front delivering the homily and
:14:52. > :14:56.blessing the babies will be a woman. There are already more women than
:14:56. > :15:00.men studying theology in Ireland. So the Irish Spring may fail and
:15:00. > :15:04.Rome may run out of priests on the ground because it couldn't get
:15:04. > :15:07.enough men as spineless as Sean Brady to do its bidding. But still
:15:07. > :15:10.thousands will still call themselves Catholic and go to
:15:10. > :15:20.church, and the utterly changed church that they dream of will be
:15:20. > :15:24.
:15:25. > :15:27.The thoughts of Malachi O'Doherty. The recession is driving more and
:15:28. > :15:33.more people into poverty and among the hardest hit are households with
:15:33. > :15:36.people in work. The latest research from the Rowntree Foundation shows
:15:36. > :15:40.that now half of the 120,000 children deemed to be in poverty
:15:40. > :15:50.live with a working parent. And for those families, the price of food
:15:50. > :15:57.
:15:58. > :16:01.You cannot help but notice the cost of food has rocketed, many people
:16:01. > :16:06.complaining the weekly shopping seems to cost twice as much as
:16:06. > :16:10.three years ago. What you may not realise is an increasing number of
:16:10. > :16:17.families in Northern Ireland, even families in work, are struggling to
:16:17. > :16:25.feed their children, having to rely on food donations. There are people
:16:25. > :16:29.in need of food and we have to respond. People who are in the past
:16:29. > :16:36.were in position to subscribe and to mate are actually coming to as
:16:36. > :16:42.seeking help and assistance. -- and to donate. It is an indictment of
:16:42. > :16:49.the welfare system that the safety net has broken down to that extent.
:16:49. > :16:53.These might look like the shelves of a supermarket warehouse, but
:16:53. > :17:00.this is a church in Newtownards. The food bank is run by the
:17:00. > :17:07.thriving life, taking donations from the public and distributing
:17:07. > :17:10.them. The Trust organises food banks in the UK and Bulgaria. Here
:17:10. > :17:14.in Northern Ireland, volunteers say they have been bowled over by the
:17:14. > :17:20.demand. We have been running out for just over six months, starting
:17:20. > :17:23.at Christmas, initially thinking that, the food stores here would
:17:23. > :17:30.see us through to February comfortably and were astonished to
:17:30. > :17:36.find it only lasted a few weeks. Since that, the increase in the
:17:36. > :17:42.uptake has been phenomenal. We're going through what you see in the
:17:42. > :17:46.store in one month. And what you say is a ton of food, literally,
:17:46. > :17:53.and no longer going to people just the Newtownards. We have had people
:17:53. > :17:58.in Bangor, right through to the out rut -- right through to the about
:17:58. > :18:02.relying area, seeing an overwhelming need out there. This
:18:03. > :18:11.scheme is supported by a local network of businesses, churches and
:18:11. > :18:17.volunteers, now having around 90 operations, increasing from six.
:18:17. > :18:20.could be the likes of me or you coming in, it could be anybody, we
:18:20. > :18:26.have had people who have lost their business, through no fault of their
:18:26. > :18:29.own. One minute people have money, the next minute having nothing.
:18:29. > :18:37.Those people may not be able to get benefits on a certain period of
:18:37. > :18:44.time, so from that point of view, and even just a simple as being
:18:44. > :18:48.made redundant and put you on the breadline that day. -- can put you.
:18:48. > :18:52.And there are many charities arranging food donations. The
:18:52. > :18:58.Society of St Vincent the Paul is the largest charity on the Ireland
:18:58. > :19:02.of Ireland. In 2010, in Northern Ireland, it spent more than
:19:02. > :19:07.�360,000 on food hampers. You may have heard recently older people
:19:07. > :19:13.saying, you have a choice of heat what eating. More and more young
:19:13. > :19:18.families face the same crisis. -- a choice of heating or eating. It is
:19:18. > :19:24.a balancing act for many. When you come into the summer months, what
:19:24. > :19:28.is your priority? Is it heat or food? During those months, we would
:19:28. > :19:33.see that the need for food is essential. This year, there has
:19:33. > :19:41.been a 14% increase in calls, many from people never helped before.
:19:41. > :19:46.are talking, obviously, of people struggling on benefits, people
:19:46. > :19:50.struggling on low incomes, and people who are employed, those who
:19:50. > :19:55.have been employed and an now unemployed or put on short time.
:19:55. > :19:59.People struggling because of pay freezes, yet the cost of living
:19:59. > :20:04.continues to increase. People reluctant to come to us, but
:20:04. > :20:09.ultimately, find they have no alternatives. Food donations may be
:20:09. > :20:14.something associated with down and out, but many families getting this
:20:14. > :20:18.help have an adult working. A new report from the Joseph Rowntree
:20:18. > :20:22.Foundation has found that poverty in working households in Northern
:20:22. > :20:28.Ireland has increased since 2009. Those monitoring poverty say it is
:20:28. > :20:31.an indictment of the welfare system. What people doing, doing in-depth
:20:31. > :20:36.interviews with families, discovering that people are
:20:36. > :20:40.juggling resources and between adults and children. Juggling with
:20:40. > :20:46.then family networks. If you do not have those networks, if you were
:20:46. > :20:53.socially isolated or your family moved abroad, what do people do?
:20:53. > :20:59.People go hungry, beg for food, or quoted food banks, which are
:20:59. > :21:04.beginning to be more common in Northern Ireland. Back in
:21:04. > :21:08.Newtownards, a work is continuing to pack up food parcels. But while
:21:08. > :21:12.all these volunteers were happy to speak to us, the people benefiting
:21:12. > :21:16.from the service would not appear on camera. It is an indication of
:21:16. > :21:22.just how embarrassing many find it to admit they cannot afford enough
:21:22. > :21:26.food. Julia Paul reporting. On the face
:21:26. > :21:30.of it, encouraging people with Irish roots to return to the auld
:21:30. > :21:38.sod seems like a good idea, a useful stimulus to tourism in these
:21:38. > :21:44.hard times, the idea behind, an initiative -- the idea behind The
:21:44. > :21:47.Gathering, an initiative supported by the Irish Government, tourist
:21:47. > :21:52.bodies and the public and private sectors. But it ran foul of
:21:52. > :22:02.Unionists in the Assembly, one calling it a Mother Ireland concept.
:22:02. > :22:13.
:22:13. > :22:18.Here is a clip of the promotional One of your party colleagues made
:22:18. > :22:24.the comment about Mother Ireland and leprechauns and colleges -- and
:22:24. > :22:30.cottages. You would have had to look hard to see traditional images
:22:30. > :22:33.of Irish Times? It looked at me like a vibrant Irish Republic.
:22:33. > :22:38.think he spoke about how historically images seem to be
:22:38. > :22:42.about Dublin rather than Northern Ireland. Thankfully, tourism has
:22:42. > :22:45.been better at marketing Northern Ireland, which is good as we have a
:22:45. > :22:51.fantastic production. So why not throw your weight behind The
:22:51. > :22:57.Gathering? This has been an understanding. The idea came from
:22:57. > :23:02.the Irish Government, from the Clinton global initiative, which we
:23:02. > :23:08.were told about 24 hours before it was released. We were not involved.
:23:08. > :23:14.This is simply, we were not asked to be involved. But you were asked.
:23:14. > :23:19.There was a motion. If it is about all of Ireland, that is a good
:23:19. > :23:26.video, but not one image from Northern Ireland. Yes, and the fact
:23:26. > :23:30.is, just the correct some points, I understand the Irish Government
:23:30. > :23:35.wrote to Northern Ireland to ask for involvement, which would have
:23:35. > :23:40.allowed the promotions and video clips to include the North of
:23:40. > :23:46.Ireland and in particular aspects of it which the Tourism Minister
:23:46. > :23:53.wanted to promote. Next year, we have some games... Why not do that
:23:53. > :23:56.anyway? I am sure people would have done it, but there would have been
:23:56. > :24:02.a row if the Northern Ireland were not asked. Northern Ireland were
:24:02. > :24:07.asked, the Minister was asked, to lend her support and participate in
:24:07. > :24:12.activities. The motion on Monday was very clearly in the billing the
:24:12. > :24:17.Unionist parties to support this initiative, to call in the Minister
:24:17. > :24:20.to join with the Irish Government in appealing to the 70 million
:24:20. > :24:25.people worldwide who claimed I Irish heritage. Whether or not the
:24:25. > :24:31.Minister was asked, she said she was not in twisted in supporting it.
:24:31. > :24:37.Obviously, tourism Ireland promotes tourism across the whole Ireland of
:24:37. > :24:42.Ireland. We want to make sure our Ireland stands out. I do not think
:24:42. > :24:45.we need to call on the back of anybody. This is a fantastic year
:24:45. > :24:52.for tourism. We have had thousands of people going to the Titanic
:24:53. > :25:00.centre, Entries for the giants Causeway visitors' centre.
:25:00. > :25:05.interest. But any money spent his arm bonus for Ireland. Why risk
:25:05. > :25:12.some people being alienated to the point of not coming north? We are
:25:12. > :25:16.not alienating anybody. Anybody coming for The Gathering is great.
:25:16. > :25:22.Do you still want to be officially part of it? The Gathering is not
:25:22. > :25:26.just about tourism, but also about the economy, getting more jobs to
:25:26. > :25:31.the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland are our
:25:31. > :25:35.competitors and it would be better for jobs in my constituency. That
:25:35. > :25:39.would be rather than the Republic of Ireland. We have to recognise
:25:39. > :25:44.the competitive element. The tenure of the debate was entirely
:25:44. > :25:48.different. It was very clear that the backbenchers in the DUP in
:25:48. > :25:55.particular do not like anything that old rotten North and South
:25:55. > :26:02.links. That is not true. -- that will strengthen links between North
:26:02. > :26:07.and South. There are many people unemployed and we need to help.
:26:07. > :26:13.There was discussion about the SDLP pushing an All Ireland agenda. Was
:26:13. > :26:19.that the tenure of the debate? is the political ideology of the
:26:19. > :26:23.SDLP. We have no problems with working with Tourism Ireland. We
:26:23. > :26:29.have additional funding to make sure we have a standard product,
:26:29. > :26:33.but must remember, in Northern Ireland, this year and next year,
:26:33. > :26:39.what the Londonderry city of culture and other events, we have
:26:39. > :26:42.massive potential. We do not have to go on the back of anyone. If we
:26:42. > :26:47.benefit from The Gathering, that is great, but let us not undersell
:26:47. > :26:54.ourselves. If nationalists on Derry City Council had taken the same
:26:54. > :26:59.attitude to the bed for Derry to be the UK City of counter -- UK City
:26:59. > :27:05.of Culture, where would we be? Peter Robinson has said how he
:27:05. > :27:09.wants to end a them and us culture, building a Shared Future under
:27:09. > :27:16.reconciled future. This has turned into a big row there was no need
:27:16. > :27:20.for, because of small-mindedness within the DUP. Most people
:27:20. > :27:25.elsewhere in the world do not know or care much about Northern Ireland
:27:25. > :27:30.and the Republic, so why risk confusing potential visitors?
:27:30. > :27:37.are not risking confusing visitors. Tourism Ireland promotes Ireland
:27:37. > :27:44.outside of Ireland. There was talk about taking out the specific
:27:44. > :27:47.identity of Northern Ireland. That will just confuse people. We have a
:27:47. > :27:52.remarkable product in Northern Ireland and want to sell Northern
:27:52. > :27:57.Ireland to get more tourists. If people get confused, people will
:27:57. > :28:01.automatically go to Dublin, so we are trying to say we have fantastic
:28:01. > :28:07.products in Northern Ireland, a unique product. People recognise
:28:07. > :28:13.that Titanic brand, second only to Coca-Cola, I think. So why aren't
:28:13. > :28:17.you or urging organisers of The Gathering to have another event to
:28:17. > :28:21.embrace the Ulster and Scots culture? There are opportunities to
:28:21. > :28:26.do that and we will raise that with the Irish Government, but it has
:28:26. > :28:32.not been a good start, with the Minister refusing to get involved
:28:32. > :28:36.and the debate a loud to debate the potential of The Gathering, which
:28:36. > :28:41.descended into a row that was unnecessary. Thank you both indeed.
:28:41. > :28:49.That is where we leave it. We are back next week at the usual time.
:28:49. > :28:59.Goodbye. A mile and visible? Some carry on
:28:59. > :28:59.
:28:59. > :29:08.this week. -- Anne invisible? And was the phone hacking anything to
:29:08. > :29:11.do what Rupert Murdoch? Absolutely not. And what about the Catholic?