:00:22. > :00:28.Hello. Welcome to the programme. Coming up this week. Money, money,
:00:28. > :00:32.money. Should we be pushing for tax raising powers or are we petter off
:00:32. > :00:38.taking handouts? Could the Queen of shops bring colour back to our
:00:38. > :00:44.politics as well as our high streets. And long to reign over us.
:00:44. > :00:48.Why so Foo rally to the monarchist cause.
:00:48. > :00:52.There's fundamental disagreement in Stormont on how to rescue our
:00:52. > :00:58.economy. Sinn Fein say we'd be in a stronger position if we could raise
:00:58. > :01:02.our own taxes. The Finance Minister says self-financing would endanger
:01:02. > :01:05.our public services. Why is the DUP afraid of some financial
:01:05. > :01:11.independence? We are not afraid of financial independence. We are
:01:11. > :01:17.continuing to actively pursue the devolution much Corporation Tax
:01:17. > :01:23.powers. We've already secured the devolution of our passenger duty to
:01:23. > :01:26.secure long haul direct flights in and out of Belfast. We are against
:01:26. > :01:30.the wholesale movement of tax raising powers from Stormont to
:01:30. > :01:34.Westminster. It may be attractive to look at fuel druety and say
:01:34. > :01:38.let's take the power for that to Northern Ireland so we could set it
:01:38. > :01:43.at a lower level. The consequence of that would mean we'd have to
:01:43. > :01:47.take the hit of any reduction. That's called Government. Taking
:01:47. > :01:52.important decisions? It comes as a consequence to our public services.
:01:53. > :01:57.If you reduced fuel duty by 10%. That would be 90 million pounds
:01:57. > :02:01.worth of deficit. That's a lot of public Sir Viss you'd have to cut
:02:01. > :02:05.away at. It isn't something that's a cost-free option. It may be
:02:06. > :02:09.attractive to look at on superficial level but comes with
:02:09. > :02:12.those consequences. We are not at a stage sufficiently that we've
:02:12. > :02:18.developed our economy where it could be something we are easily
:02:18. > :02:25.able to make up elsewhere. Paul, Sinn Fein are living in a dream
:02:25. > :02:30.world? Some of this comes from a question I supposed this week in
:02:30. > :02:35.the Assembly. Asked him if he has had any conversation with the
:02:35. > :02:41.exchequer with regards to having more fiscal power for the executive
:02:41. > :02:50.to take power of. He said he doesn't want any more because he's
:02:50. > :02:53.a unionist. Sammy Wilson's always farb eerbious. My point is I doptd'
:02:53. > :02:57.think business out there will accept that argument, because
:02:58. > :03:02.you're unionist you don't want more fiscal powers. That has to be put
:03:03. > :03:07.away. We need to move forward and govern for ourselves, take the
:03:07. > :03:12.responsibility what we can do. That's some of the big issues with
:03:12. > :03:16.regard to some of the fax-free powers. We could govern ourselves
:03:16. > :03:22.much better. This is the same Government, the Tory-led Government
:03:22. > :03:27.who put �4 billion of cuts for this four year period. If we had our own
:03:27. > :03:32.tax free powers we could work that out and take some of the hits off
:03:32. > :03:36.society where we could implement our powers with better use. We get
:03:36. > :03:41.�8 billion of sub vention every year from Westminster. That's money
:03:41. > :03:45.we don't raise our selves. We haven't got the capacity to race
:03:45. > :03:50.that -- raise that ourselves. The people of Northern Ireland would be
:03:50. > :03:58.in a Shabby situation if we had that power. We cant aafford that.
:03:58. > :04:04.Mark is in our Foyle studios. SDLP is in favour of tax raising powers.
:04:04. > :04:10.We'd find it very difficult to keep the same standard of living and
:04:10. > :04:16.public service as we do now? That's why we have to be selective,
:04:16. > :04:22.strategic and about how we amass tax raising powers. We were add vo
:04:22. > :04:25.Kateing areas of fiscal discretion. No other party was interested at
:04:25. > :04:30.that stage. Sinn Fein keep talking about tax raising powers as a way
:04:30. > :04:35.of getting round the �4 billion hit on the budget. Where are they
:04:35. > :04:39.saying they'd raise pz 4 billion out of our hard-pressed economy?
:04:39. > :04:47.Which business sector would be targeted? Would they massively
:04:47. > :04:52.increase income tax. We already have lower wages than other parts
:04:52. > :04:56.of these islands. Sinn Fein are somewhat incoherent on this. It is
:04:56. > :05:01.attractive to say you want tax varying powers when it comes to
:05:01. > :05:07.making a dipbs to sectors of the economy. We've tried to help
:05:07. > :05:14.sectors in the past given things like the climate change levy,
:05:14. > :05:17.aggregates levy, air airport duty etsz. It is one thing to have tax
:05:17. > :05:22.Vaiying powers to shelter parts of the economy. It is another to say
:05:22. > :05:25.we want on a wide ranging bases, raise rapidly more money out of an
:05:26. > :05:31.already tight economy. That's where Sinn Fein don't make sense. They
:05:31. > :05:41.haven't told us what tax, what amount, who they will be hitting,
:05:41. > :05:43.
:05:43. > :05:46.how they would hit it. Let's put some of those points to the panel?
:05:46. > :05:51.Surely some of the arguments Mark's putting forward and Simon put
:05:51. > :05:54.forward is they are afraid to govern them sells. People put uls
:05:54. > :05:59.into the position... That's not an answer to the question. Where's the
:05:59. > :06:04.money going to come from? What we are saying is let's see what tax
:06:04. > :06:09.money is paid out every year here. We cannot get that answer. The
:06:09. > :06:14.British exchequer won't give us that answer. We could pay more
:06:14. > :06:18.taxes here than we're given back in? Do you really think... I don't
:06:18. > :06:23.know where you'll get that from. are not getting them figures. Let's
:06:23. > :06:28.press for them figures. With the the Finance Minister has a duty for
:06:28. > :06:32.iend out what they are. If you get those figures and they showed we
:06:32. > :06:36.give back to the exchequer much less than we got from it, would
:06:36. > :06:42.that supper your plans? How would it? It would work in our favour. We
:06:42. > :06:47.are saying if we are paying more tax money out on a yearly basis we
:06:47. > :06:51.could govern and have much more money for ourselves. I sit on the
:06:51. > :06:56.committee where we had three experts in taking about things.
:06:56. > :07:02.They are saying we've Ben fit the from the Barnet forpbl la up to now.
:07:02. > :07:07.We are at tipping point. In years ahead that money will reduce more.
:07:07. > :07:11.I skrnt' heard the Finance Minister or anyone for that matter state
:07:11. > :07:14.those facts. We need to get to those issues. We'll have less money
:07:14. > :07:19.to spend on businesses on the economy and building our economy.
:07:19. > :07:27.That's what we need to do. It is clear to me and the three experts
:07:27. > :07:32.who were at that committee, to reed the minutes of that meeting. I wish
:07:32. > :07:36.we were raising more in tax revenue than we were taking in from
:07:36. > :07:39.Westminster. We wouldn't go through the economic turmoil we are in
:07:39. > :07:43.Northern Ireland if that was the case. The truth is there is �8
:07:43. > :07:48.billion of sub vention coming in each and every year. We are not
:07:48. > :07:54.alone in regions of the UK, it is only London and the south-east who
:07:54. > :07:58.pay for themselves. I aspire to it. We should all aspire to all of us
:07:58. > :08:02.paying more of our way. That's what the executive Si trying to do to
:08:02. > :08:05.bridge that gap that there is in terms of productivity in Northern
:08:05. > :08:10.Ireland. We are a long way away from the position Paul thinks we
:08:10. > :08:15.are in. What I fear is not governing for ourselves, what I
:08:15. > :08:19.fear is if we go down the foolish route Paul's outlining, the
:08:19. > :08:23.consequence for people in Northern Ireland, the consequence for public
:08:23. > :08:29.services in Northern Ireland will be severe. I don't fear taking
:08:30. > :08:34.control of our own distinny. shouldn't dismiss the scale of the
:08:34. > :08:37.sub vention. As far as Paul saying he's not heard anyone else talking
:08:37. > :08:41.about the Barnet formula, many years ago I warned people that
:08:42. > :08:47.formula would come to a point where there would be a squeeze and we
:08:47. > :08:51.needed to address it as a region. We'll realise that will open up
:08:51. > :08:56.around us in the context of Scotland. That's why we need to be
:08:56. > :09:01.thinking about what fiscal discretion we want. We have to be
:09:01. > :09:06.sensible. We can't say give all tax raising powers. The people who
:09:06. > :09:11.would happily let the us raise all our taxes would be the people in
:09:11. > :09:16.the south of England. If we are going to have fiscal powers we need
:09:16. > :09:20.to use them to the benefit of our economy and our people. If we are
:09:20. > :09:26.left having to raise the tax bills on every worker and firm that won't
:09:26. > :09:33.help us back into competitiveness. People won't say that's a great bit
:09:33. > :09:38.of self-Government up' agreed. Make us let competitive than our people
:09:38. > :09:43.in this island. We need to be sensible. He's saying about tax
:09:43. > :09:47.raisinging powers. We are talking about takes fearing you Poers.
:09:47. > :09:51.Let's pose the questions to the British exchequer, how much money
:09:52. > :09:55.is coming out of here every year to the British exchequer? That's a
:09:55. > :10:05.question... You've asked that question already on the programme.
:10:05. > :10:06.
:10:06. > :10:11.Ask Paul Paul then... It is not all about tax raising. Mark, I want to
:10:11. > :10:15.raise another subject in this forum. The SDLP are concerned about the
:10:15. > :10:19.effect of the welfare benefit reforms in Northern Ireland. You
:10:19. > :10:23.accept the need for reform? course there's always need for
:10:23. > :10:28.reform and adjustment in a system to make sure benefits get to people
:10:28. > :10:31.who need them. Changes need to be made anyway to better support
:10:31. > :10:35.cancer patients for instance. Many of these reforms of going in the
:10:35. > :10:42.opposite direction. The one bit of headline reform many parties agree
:10:42. > :10:46.with is the idea, the concept of a universal credit. In particular, if
:10:46. > :10:49.that can improve the experience people have had with working tax
:10:50. > :10:53.credits, that would be an improvement. In principle that's
:10:53. > :10:58.the target of these reforms. We don't have all the details yet. The
:10:58. > :11:01.actual regulations that will apply and have effect on people, we still
:11:01. > :11:06.don't V the Government's pushing this bill through in Westminster
:11:06. > :11:11.and are expecting Stormont to pass a karaoke version when we don't
:11:11. > :11:15.have the detailed regulations. Alastair McDonald accused the
:11:15. > :11:19.executive of not being prepared for these reforms. Do you accept that?
:11:19. > :11:24.Not the case. Nelson McCausland's in regular contact with the
:11:24. > :11:30.Minister. Some of his contact is almost daily. This is something
:11:30. > :11:35.which is taken very seriously. There's an executive sub-committee
:11:35. > :11:39.on welfare reform. Everybody would embrace welfare reform that simple
:11:39. > :11:44.fist the system, that ensures there is not a culture where it is
:11:44. > :11:48.easier... And pay special atense to the needs of Northern Ireland?
:11:48. > :11:51.and do what we can with the system with have to ensure some of the
:11:51. > :11:59.most negative affects are not hitting our people so severely.
:11:59. > :12:06.Gentlemen, thank you. Is it just me or is politics here
:12:06. > :12:10.getting more colourless, tame and boring? Everyone's on message
:12:10. > :12:15.wearing smart suits, towing their party lines saying what they are
:12:15. > :12:19.supposed to say. I Ronically, as though we have a five-party
:12:19. > :12:23.executive and seven parties in the in the Assembly. Politics in
:12:23. > :12:28.Northern Ireland is more uniform than ever. Where's the passion,
:12:28. > :12:34.fervour? Where are the people who chose for themselves not followed?
:12:34. > :12:40.This is the city which produced radical Protestant nationalists.
:12:40. > :12:43.Dynamic men and women who dared to dream differently? Where the
:12:43. > :12:49.political free-thinkers? Who don't slot into the preordained boxes.
:12:49. > :12:53.Where the Catholic Unionists protestant republicans. Even a few
:12:53. > :12:59.would liven things up a bit. Instead we get the grey sludge of
:12:59. > :13:04.conformity. Our politician are increasingly looking and sound the
:13:04. > :13:12.same. This is a political culture where our single Green Party
:13:12. > :13:16.representative is the close close est thing Stormont has to a -- an
:13:16. > :13:19.anarchist. We have the spuds and Alliance Party to break up the
:13:19. > :13:25.tribal set-up but they'll never set your heart on fire. They are more
:13:25. > :13:29.like a comforting blanket of mashed potato, pleasant and wholesome and
:13:29. > :13:35.you might want to go to sleep afterwards. On the rare occasions
:13:35. > :13:39.when people do anything remoatly sur Rexry someone has been naughty.
:13:39. > :13:48.When David McNarry got too expanseive about his talks with the
:13:48. > :13:51.DUP, Ulster Unionists leader Tom Elliott slapped him down. It is not
:13:51. > :13:55.just the DUP where discipline are valued more highly than personal
:13:55. > :14:02.initiative and imagination. There's a collective fear of breaking the
:14:02. > :14:09.rules. Those of us with a hangering for more political flafr have to be
:14:09. > :14:13.content with small, random of colour. Like Nelson McCausland
:14:13. > :14:20.inviting Mary Portas to give advice on our ailing high streets. I love
:14:20. > :14:26.the thought of an encounter between Nelson and Portas who likes to wear
:14:26. > :14:30.dominate rix boots and is described as the glamorous half of a lesbian
:14:30. > :14:37.couple. We've been talking about Ian Paisley this week. That's a man
:14:37. > :14:41.you could never accuse of being dull or boring. Yet it was only
:14:41. > :14:44.when he announced his rabble rousing ways and went quietly into
:14:44. > :14:50.Government with Sinn Fein this place set down it a fragile he can
:14:50. > :14:57.lib rum. It seems one dimensional dumbness is the price we are paying
:14:57. > :15:07.for peace -- dullness. Not fooming idea logs. It is boring but, I
:15:07. > :15:08.
:15:08. > :15:12.We talked last week about the SuperPacs, the groups funneling
:15:12. > :15:16.tens of millions of dollars in anonymous donations into the US
:15:16. > :15:18.presidential campaigns. Before we tut tut about the undermining of
:15:18. > :15:22.democracy, we should remember Northern Ireland is the only part
:15:22. > :15:26.of the British Isles where the identity of political donors is
:15:26. > :15:36.kept secret. But there are mounting demands from voters for the
:15:36. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:45.The vast majority of people surveyed in Northern Ireland would
:15:45. > :15:51.like to see donations to political parties made public. There is still
:15:51. > :15:56.a degree of concern of possible intimidation or fear of reprisals.
:15:56. > :16:02.I believe this is still a veil that political parties hide behind.
:16:02. > :16:05.there's nothing to hide, let's have it out in the open. Now, you may
:16:05. > :16:10.know what your political party stands for, but what you don't know
:16:11. > :16:15.is who is funding them. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK
:16:15. > :16:18.where those who donate or loan money to political parties are
:16:18. > :16:22.allowed to remain anonymous. There are mixed views about this among
:16:22. > :16:27.the parties, but those who want their donors to remain confidential
:16:27. > :16:32.say that's because naming them could put them in danger.
:16:32. > :16:38.Information on donors to political parties is collected by the
:16:38. > :16:42.Electoral Commission. If a political party receives �7,500
:16:42. > :16:46.paid to the central party or �1500 to a branch of the party, they make
:16:46. > :16:50.a return to the Electoral Commission on a quarterly basis. We
:16:51. > :16:56.would ensure that the donation received was from a per missible
:16:56. > :17:01.source. The commission commission also surveys the public.
:17:01. > :17:04.The latest findings show voters want access to that information.
:17:04. > :17:09.The vast majority of people surveyed in Northern Ireland would
:17:09. > :17:15.like to see donations and loans to political parties made public. The
:17:15. > :17:23.figure currently is 62% would like to see that. We only have 4% of the
:17:23. > :17:30.people surveyed in 2011 of the view thra -- that information about who
:17:30. > :17:34.donates should remain confidential. So we carry -- carried out our own
:17:34. > :17:37.survey. Some things are fundamental. Information is one of them. This
:17:37. > :17:40.stuff about security is a red herring. I don't think the security
:17:40. > :17:47.risk would be a significant factor and it might be an excuse that is
:17:47. > :17:50.being given. I don't believe that's a valid reason. If they really
:17:50. > :17:55.wanted to donate they wo. If their politics are strong enough and they
:17:55. > :17:59.have the money, I think they would do it. If they're being voted in by
:17:59. > :18:05.the public, the public has the right to know who is funning the
:18:05. > :18:09.partiesment Where do the parties stand? Sinn Fein wants an ebd to
:18:09. > :18:13.keeping donations to political parties secret. On its website it
:18:13. > :18:18.publishes the amount donated to the party, but not the donors. Alliance
:18:18. > :18:22.also believes donations to parties or public representatives should be
:18:22. > :18:27.publicly declared. But the SDLP is worried about the safety of donors,
:18:27. > :18:31.especially in the light of disdepartment -- dissident
:18:31. > :18:36.activities. The U ever P agrees. They believe the information could
:18:36. > :18:39.be of use to terrorists. The DUP says there is still a trifpbg for
:18:39. > :18:45.donors being identified with a political party.
:18:45. > :18:49.It's less draink Russ now than -- dangerous than ten, 15 years ago.
:18:49. > :18:53.There is still a degree of concern, perhaps a perception more than
:18:53. > :19:01.reality of possible intimidation or fear of reprisals. We're told every
:19:01. > :19:05.day that this is a new Northern Ireland, that we have a news -- new
:19:05. > :19:12.dispensation F we have, why are we clinging to relics in terms of
:19:12. > :19:17.suppressing transparency from the past? The TUV is not the only party
:19:17. > :19:24.sceptical that there is a security risk. That is an old argument
:19:24. > :19:28.that's no longer valid. The Green Party is so convinced, it's
:19:28. > :19:32.publishing the names of donors on the website We think it's a key
:19:32. > :19:34.element of democracy that the people who go out to vote know who
:19:34. > :19:39.is funding their political parties and how they're being funded to
:19:39. > :19:44.make an informed choice. What other parties may say is that the Greens
:19:44. > :19:49.are unlikely to be the victims of a terrorist-style attack that some of
:19:49. > :19:52.the other parties might face, that's why they need the
:19:52. > :19:56.confidentiality. If we can take soldiers off the streets and reduce
:19:56. > :19:59.policing numbers and if people can stand for election safely, surely
:19:59. > :20:06.we can have transparency in donations. There's a recognition
:20:06. > :20:10.that the lack of transparency can undermine politics. It's
:20:10. > :20:14.significant donation that's may be made by people who could be viewed
:20:14. > :20:19.as having an altierior motive and making the donation. That's what we
:20:19. > :20:23.all have to guard against. Some of us have systematically guarded
:20:23. > :20:27.against it, but that's not enough any more. We need to be clear, if
:20:27. > :20:33.money comes in, be it significant or otherwise, people need to know
:20:33. > :20:37.where it's coming from and how much it is. Sinn Fein tell us their MLAs
:20:37. > :20:42.only take an industrial wage. I know from questions asked there's
:20:42. > :20:46.no MLA paid officially just an industrial wage. They're all paid a
:20:46. > :20:50.full salary. If they say that they then give it to the party, that
:20:50. > :20:53.could be a donation which would be registerable and the public should
:20:53. > :20:57.be able to see that against the records of the Electoral Commission.
:20:57. > :21:02.This issue isn't the responsibility of Stormont. It's down to the
:21:02. > :21:07.coalition Government at Westminster. Secretary of State Owen Patterson
:21:07. > :21:11.believes more information could be released without compromising donor
:21:11. > :21:14.safety. He says he's committed to providing full transparency around
:21:14. > :21:19.political donors in Northern Ireland in the long-term.
:21:19. > :21:23.The current legislation expires in February of next year and any
:21:23. > :21:26.change will mean new legislation. As there's already a heavy work
:21:26. > :21:33.load at Westminster, even if there's agreement on change, it
:21:33. > :21:39.could be a while yet. Julia Paul reporting. This week
:21:39. > :21:42.brought the 60th anniversary of the accession of Queen Elizabeth II to
:21:42. > :21:46.the throne. The British nation is preparing for the Diamond Jubilee
:21:46. > :21:51.and with Prince William and his bride the darlings of the media,
:21:51. > :21:59.the future of the monarchy seems secure. With me now to analyse the
:21:59. > :22:08.endure of the monarchy is Jeffrey Donaldson and in London in London
:22:08. > :22:12.Graeme Smith. They've been banging the drum for 30 years but making
:22:12. > :22:16.little impact. In this year, do you feel like giving up? Republic was
:22:16. > :22:21.formed in '93, but in terms of actually being an active
:22:21. > :22:25.campaigning group it's been going for five or six years. It was
:22:25. > :22:29.relaunched as a campaigning pressure group. Last year, when the
:22:29. > :22:32.media were getting into a bit of a frenzy around the Royal Wedding,
:22:32. > :22:37.our supporter numbers rocketed. From the day that the wedding was
:22:37. > :22:43.announced through to the day of the wedding itself, we saw an increase
:22:43. > :22:48.of more than 100% of our supporters. We now have over 20,000 supporters
:22:48. > :22:53.UK-wide. That is now growing again as we build up to the Jubilee.
:22:53. > :22:58.the polls show overwhelming support for the monarchy. One done last
:22:58. > :23:03.year looking even to the accession of King Charles only 13% of people
:23:03. > :23:07.said they'd prefer to see the monarchy go than have King Charles.
:23:07. > :23:13.That poll was hugely misleading. A poll one week before the wedding
:23:13. > :23:17.from ICM showed 26% of the population thought we'd be better
:23:18. > :23:22.off without the monarchy. The bulk of people that were polled around
:23:22. > :23:26.that time also said that they weren't interested in the wedding.
:23:26. > :23:32.So whilst most people still given a choice would say well, let's keep
:23:32. > :23:38.what we've got, it isn't the same sort of love for the monarchy that
:23:38. > :23:41.you would have seen 30 years ago. Do you agree that there is a swell
:23:41. > :23:47.of republicanism in the country at large? I don't think there is.
:23:47. > :23:52.Support for the monarchy is holding very strong. When you consider that
:23:52. > :23:56.even Alex Salmond who wants to make Scotland independent wants to
:23:56. > :24:00.retain the monarchy, and the link, even in the event of independent
:24:00. > :24:06.Scotland, it shows how popular the monarchy is across the United
:24:06. > :24:11.Kingdom. Thomas Payne called it an exceedingly ridiculous composition.
:24:11. > :24:14.If you were starting today you wouldn't invent a monarchy would
:24:14. > :24:18.you? It's part of our history, that's the case. Whether or not we
:24:18. > :24:22.would invent it today is not really the Irish you. People are happy
:24:22. > :24:26.with the settled situation, our constitutional status. The monarchy
:24:26. > :24:30.has served us well. The United Kingdom has enjoyed centuries of
:24:30. > :24:35.stability, when all around the world we've seen a lot of
:24:35. > :24:38.instability, revolutions, coup d'etat and so on. I think we can be
:24:38. > :24:43.thankful that our head of state contributes to the stability that
:24:43. > :24:48.the United Kingdom enjoys. How do you counter that Graeme Smith?
:24:48. > :24:54.doesn't contribute to the stability. The monarchies in Europe have
:24:54. > :24:59.survived in stable countries. It's not that the monarchies have caused
:24:59. > :25:05.it, they've allowed the monarchies to survive. This is a fundamental
:25:05. > :25:08.part of our set up and our constitution. Our constitution is
:25:08. > :25:12.profoundly undemocratic. The British people have little input in
:25:12. > :25:17.the way our politics is managed, other than every five years we get
:25:17. > :25:21.a vote for less than half of our Parliament. And in between those
:25:21. > :25:24.elections, our Government is enormously powerful in terms of
:25:24. > :25:28.domestic politics and that power comes from the Crown. It's much
:25:28. > :25:33.more than just the institution, it's to do with our entire
:25:33. > :25:37.political system. We want a system where we are genuinely democratic,
:25:37. > :25:42.where the people have a genuine say in politics, right from top all the
:25:42. > :25:47.way down to the bottom. It is fundamentally anti-democratic, the
:25:47. > :25:51.notion of monarchy. That's a nonsense. If it was anti-democratic,
:25:51. > :25:56.why would the people tolerate it? The people, by their own will, want
:25:56. > :25:59.to retain the monarchy. That is the situation. The people... It is
:25:59. > :26:02.anti-democratic institution by definition. You don't vote for the
:26:02. > :26:06.king or Queen. It's not when it's the will of the people. Democracy
:26:06. > :26:10.is about the exercise of the will of the people. Let me challenge
:26:10. > :26:14.this notion that somehow republics are stable. Look at every single
:26:14. > :26:17.conflict in the world today, tell me how many of those conflicts are
:26:17. > :26:23.in countries where there's a monarchy and how many are in
:26:23. > :26:28.countries like Afghanistan, where there is conflict. Afghanistan is
:26:28. > :26:32.not... I didn't interrupt you. let you come back. Don't worry.
:26:32. > :26:35.Graham is more interested in targetting ten to 15-year-olds who
:26:36. > :26:40.want to enter a cookery competition as part of the Diamond Jubilee and
:26:40. > :26:44.he says it's against the law for a school to allow its children to
:26:44. > :26:49.enter a cookery competition because it's not republican. This is the
:26:49. > :26:54.kind of nonsense that republic are coming out with. So weak is the
:26:54. > :26:59.argument they're targetting school children. Republicanism is about
:26:59. > :27:03.being democratic and having a system founded on the idea that, of
:27:03. > :27:09.the sovereignty of the people. the republic of Syria, for example.
:27:09. > :27:16.No, precisely. Syria is not a republic. It's a dictatorship.
:27:17. > :27:21.a republic. It's got a President. So is Afghanistan. The United
:27:21. > :27:26.States is a republic. We're getting the picture that republics are very
:27:26. > :27:30.often are in unstable situations. Not necessarily. I'm asking Steve a
:27:30. > :27:34.simple question. Show me one monarchy with instability?
:27:34. > :27:37.you're going to keep on interrupting me and being rather
:27:37. > :27:43.obtuse to put it bluntly, we're not going to get very far. A republic
:27:43. > :27:47.is a country which is founded on democratic values. Syria is a
:27:47. > :27:53.dictatorship. It is a monarchy, because it is, the fact that they
:27:53. > :27:59.call themselves President, they are a hereditary dictatorship. It is as
:27:59. > :28:02.our country used to be 300 years ago. Nepal was a monarchy and
:28:02. > :28:06.suffered huge amounts of internal strife and they are now a republic.
:28:07. > :28:13.There are much fewer monarchies in the world and therefore clearly
:28:13. > :28:15.there are going to be more non- monarchy countries that have
:28:16. > :28:21.political problems. Europe went through wars and revolutions as a
:28:21. > :28:26.direct results of failure of monarchy on this continent. It is a
:28:26. > :28:30.non-argument to suggest that monarchy is more stable than
:28:30. > :28:35.republics. It is complete nonsense. What would your prognosis be for
:28:35. > :28:39.the end of the monarchy? What can you foresee? Look into your
:28:39. > :28:43.republic's crystal bass. A lot of the support that exists for the
:28:43. > :28:47.monarchy is tied up with the Queen herself. She's coming to the end of
:28:47. > :28:51.her life and reign. That's a natural fact of the way this thing
:28:51. > :28:57.works. We're going to run out of time. I want to ask you, do you
:28:57. > :29:01.think the end of the Queen's reign will be in some way a presage the
:29:01. > :29:05.end of the monarchy? Absolutely not. There is no evidence of that. I
:29:05. > :29:09.think the monarchy will be here for a long time to come. It adds real
:29:09. > :29:13.value it our nation and people Cherish it. We have to leave it
:29:13. > :29:21.there. Thank you very much. That's where we have to leave it. We'll be
:29:21. > :29:26.back next week at the usual times. I hope you'll join us. Goodbye.
:29:26. > :29:31.Where due get your license a lucky pick? Some carry on this week, the