:00:38. > :00:42.Hello. Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister has come and
:00:42. > :00:47.gone, applauded by MLAs for telling them they will have to get on with
:00:47. > :00:55.it and there is no use asking for more money. He has gone back to
:00:55. > :01:01.London clutching Fermanagh eggs. It was an uneventful their ISA boring
:01:01. > :01:09.the visit. Was there any central message we should take from it?
:01:09. > :01:13.think you have got it spot on. It was very businesslike. I thought it
:01:13. > :01:18.was a wonderful example of how Northern Ireland has moved on and
:01:18. > :01:27.politics is now it's all about the things that matter to people on an
:01:27. > :01:35.everyday basis. How does he expect to deliver West less and less
:01:35. > :01:45.money? He made it clear that Northern Ireland actually receives
:01:45. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :01:55.25 % more per head than elsewhere in England. He made it clear we now
:01:55. > :02:01.have stable elections. The Executive has been formed. How is
:02:01. > :02:05.that going to improve people's lives with less money? We have a
:02:05. > :02:13.stable Executive with a substantial amount of money, considerably more
:02:13. > :02:19.than England, with only a reduction of 6.9 % compared to reductions in
:02:20. > :02:27.most UK departments of 19 %. People here will expect the Executive to
:02:27. > :02:32.get on and deliver. In fairness of the minister's remit agreed. We may
:02:32. > :02:34.be getting less less than the rest of the country but we are now
:02:34. > :02:42.getting the Archbishop of Canterbury saying these reforms are
:02:42. > :02:45.being pushed through willy-nilly when no one voted for them.
:02:45. > :02:51.fairness to both coalition parties we made it absolutely clear that
:02:51. > :03:01.reducing this appalling deficit which requires us to spend �120
:03:01. > :03:02.
:03:02. > :03:07.million per day on debt is there key part of our message. We totally
:03:07. > :03:11.disagree with the Archbishop of Canterbury. We do not think it is
:03:11. > :03:18.moral and good to pay for things today and dump the credit card bill
:03:18. > :03:22.on our children and grandchildren. How much do we expect public
:03:22. > :03:27.representatives to improve people's lives under those restrictions? You
:03:27. > :03:34.are not going to deliver real improvements like the Prime
:03:34. > :03:42.Minister is at skiing -- asking. Things can be delivered more
:03:42. > :03:49.efficiently. It is up to those in charge, local ministers, to get
:03:49. > :03:54.more with a little less money. 6.9 % over format for years is only
:03:54. > :03:59.1.27 % per year. It is a very modest reduction on what is already
:03:59. > :04:07.a higher rate than England. There are jobs disappearing in the public
:04:07. > :04:11.sector, we cannot improve those people's lives? If the private
:04:11. > :04:20.sector were run as efficiently as the private sector you could save
:04:20. > :04:25.�1 billion per year. They have got a clear run now, a clear mandate,
:04:25. > :04:35.they have got stable institutions and the totally agreed it is up to
:04:35. > :04:44.
:04:45. > :04:49.them to deliver. -- the totally agree. It is quite clear that all
:04:49. > :04:55.Western democracies, we have a dramatic example in the Republic,
:04:55. > :05:01.have got to live within their means. We cannot go on living on a credit
:05:01. > :05:06.card and leaving the Bill to our children and grandchildren. One of
:05:06. > :05:16.the great Saviour's is corporation tax. It was reduced to some level.
:05:16. > :05:16.
:05:16. > :05:19.We have had more hints about that today. There is to be published a
:05:19. > :05:24.paper on rebalancing the economy to help create growth in the private
:05:24. > :05:28.sector because we all know the over-dependence on public spending
:05:28. > :05:33.cannot last indefinitely. We have published the paper which had
:05:33. > :05:36.endorsement from all five political parties. There is now a
:05:36. > :05:43.consultation process going on. I very much hope and I have made it
:05:43. > :05:49.clear publicly that I am a strong supporter of this, that it will be
:05:49. > :05:54.again changed and top of the existing advantages. I think it
:05:54. > :05:59.would be a huge help in reviving the private sector and that
:05:59. > :06:07.prosperity would lift all boats, a rising tide lifts all boats, it
:06:07. > :06:10.would wash into those disadvantaged communities and it would all help.
:06:10. > :06:15.There is an occasional contradiction to what the benefits
:06:15. > :06:25.might be of that? The House of Commons Select Committee said the
:06:25. > :06:33.opposite. Yesterday we had one of the most senior executives from an
:06:33. > :06:41.employer of 2000 people in Northern Ireland, he said they would double
:06:41. > :06:48.their business in 10 years if it happened. That company is a real
:06:48. > :06:53.exception, most employee 10 or fewer people. Think of that
:06:53. > :06:57.prosperity washing into some of those deprived communities. Sadly
:06:57. > :07:03.some of them are in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Thinker
:07:03. > :07:07.of the impact of that extra income going into small shops, people
:07:07. > :07:13.buying things like bread and newspapers, going on holiday, going
:07:13. > :07:18.to pubs. If we can help improve the private economy here that
:07:18. > :07:23.prosperity will wash into some of the most deprived area is with
:07:23. > :07:30.immense benefits. This is not in the back, I have to make that clear,
:07:30. > :07:34.the Prime Minister said people have got time to write into the Treasury
:07:34. > :07:44.before 24th June. The Prime Minister talk about looking forward,
:07:44. > :07:52.
:07:52. > :07:57.not looking to the past. We have said no more costly and open ended
:07:57. > :08:01.inquiries. I thought he made a very good point that what people want
:08:01. > :08:06.from the party is the truth. He made a good point in parliament
:08:06. > :08:12.yesterday that it was not so much the cost and length and the
:08:12. > :08:16.enormous detail, it was the fact the truth came out. He made it
:08:16. > :08:26.quite clear that there are possibly other ways of getting to the truth.
:08:26. > :08:35.
:08:35. > :08:42.That is what people want. Specifically on that won the case,
:08:42. > :08:46.will there be an inquiry? I saw the wife of the man a few months ago
:08:46. > :08:51.and I said I would make a decision soon after the elections but I have
:08:51. > :08:57.not made a final decision yet. Your mind what at the issues that are
:08:57. > :09:06.still playing around in your head? Is it the potential cost of a full
:09:06. > :09:12.and open inquiry? If you look can be written statement which I made
:09:12. > :09:16.in November to Parliament I lay out the theory is criteria. There is
:09:16. > :09:19.the public interest, there is the cost, the time, the delays since
:09:19. > :09:25.this terrible murder happened. All of those are factors which I am
:09:25. > :09:32.looking at. I will make a decision soon. The tribunal has been told it
:09:32. > :09:36.has to come up with its final report on the murder of two RUC
:09:36. > :09:44.officers in November, is that the sort of thing you can see
:09:44. > :09:49.happening? Each is different. I have been asked to provide an
:09:49. > :09:53.interim report in November. The first case you asked about is a
:09:53. > :09:57.particularly difficult one on which I will make a decision soon.
:09:57. > :10:03.wider issues, are you any closer to coming up with some kind of
:10:03. > :10:08.solution? We have been in discussion with the party leaders.
:10:08. > :10:14.I have been talking to all the political parties, we have had
:10:14. > :10:21.numerous groups in. First of all, this is not an issue which is owned
:10:21. > :10:25.by the UK Government. This has to be brought forward in consultation.
:10:25. > :10:35.Hopefully, with some agreement and consensus from across the piece,
:10:35. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:41.that is obviously extremely difficult to achieve. Thank you.
:10:41. > :10:43.Mary McArdle is fully entitled to be an advisor to a Sinn Fein
:10:43. > :10:46.Minister. The party appointed her and the minister needs her. But
:10:46. > :10:49.some of the arguments made in defence of her appointment are more
:10:49. > :10:52.likely to impress Sinn Fein supporters, who will have no
:10:52. > :10:56.problem with her being in the job anyway, than to sway the opinions
:10:56. > :11:00.of those who would like her to step down. She was part of a gang that
:11:00. > :11:03.tried to kill a magistrate and shot his daughter in the back and killed
:11:03. > :11:06.her. She is now political advisor to Caral ni Chuilin, whom she
:11:06. > :11:09.befriended in prison. All former prisoners should have a chance to
:11:09. > :11:12.do well in life, to outgrow their criminal inclinations and become
:11:12. > :11:15.better people. I wouldn't judge anyone by what they did at 19,
:11:15. > :11:19.unless they continued to stand over and defend and justify what they
:11:19. > :11:24.did. Sinn Fein thinks of the IRA gangs as political champions who
:11:24. > :11:27.fought a noble struggle. The rest of society largely indulges that
:11:27. > :11:32.view, in that they don't argue about it any more, but that does
:11:32. > :11:35.not mean they accept it. When Martin McGuinness says that those
:11:35. > :11:40.who participated in a conflict are entitled to work for the
:11:40. > :11:42.improvement of society, he is right, up to a point. His argument is that
:11:42. > :11:47.otherwise Nelson Mandela would never have been made president of
:11:47. > :11:53.South Africa. But then surely he would make an exception for Ratko
:11:53. > :11:56.Mladic; wouldn't he? And if for Mladic, then where does he draw the
:11:56. > :12:00.line, because everyobody draws it somewhere? Is Mary McArdle closer
:12:00. > :12:05.to the Nelson Mandela end of the spectrum or the end that is
:12:05. > :12:08.occupied by the ruthless assassins of innocent civilians? Sinn Fein
:12:08. > :12:11.wants the IRA to, at least, have parity in the popular imagination
:12:11. > :12:18.with the RUC and the British Army as participants in an unfortunate
:12:18. > :12:21.but necessary war. I don't buy that for a minute. Do you? I want
:12:21. > :12:25.children here to be reminded that the IRA killed more people than any
:12:25. > :12:29.other org anisation during the Troubles. Gerry Adams says he wants
:12:29. > :12:32.a truth commission; well, there's a truth to be getting on with. If
:12:33. > :12:36.they foist the idea of the legitimate war on us, then I want
:12:36. > :12:39.to reply by foisting on them the concept of the war crime and ask if
:12:40. > :12:44.shooting a girl in the back because she was the daughter of a
:12:44. > :12:48.magistrate was such a crime. They want us to remember their prisoners
:12:48. > :12:52.as political. But those prisoners were criminals. Political criminals
:12:52. > :12:57.if you like, but there never was a law that endorsed the shooting of
:12:57. > :13:00.people for political objectives. Shooting a girl in the back was no
:13:00. > :13:06.more principled, decent, excusable or forgiveable when done by the IRA
:13:06. > :13:11.than by the UVF or the British army. But the IRA did a lot more of that
:13:11. > :13:14.kind of thing than anybody else. And this is why I would like to see
:13:14. > :13:21.Mary McArdle leave that job; because she is maintained there in
:13:21. > :13:24.defence of fallacious and propagandistic account of our past.
:13:24. > :13:28.Of course, let her say not just that murdering a girl was a tragic
:13:28. > :13:32.mistake but that her big mistake in the first place was to join the IRA,
:13:32. > :13:42.and I would defend her to the hilt. But, of course, if she did that,
:13:42. > :13:43.
:13:43. > :13:49.Martin McGuinness would drop her, wouldn't he? The thought of Mullahy
:13:49. > :13:54.O'Doherty. The figures show that Protestant children are less likely
:13:54. > :13:58.to go to university than their Catholic neighbours. Does that mean
:13:58. > :14:08.that Protestant areas will fare worse than others? Who will speak
:14:08. > :14:11.up for them? Hurling training at a Protestant school in loyalist
:14:11. > :14:16.working-class east Belfast. Not what you would expect but then this
:14:16. > :14:23.is not any old boys' school. Disadvantaged Catholics are twice
:14:23. > :14:27.as likely to go to university than disadvantaged Protestants and of
:14:27. > :14:32.the 15 electoral wards with the worst educational attainment, 13
:14:32. > :14:40.were also predominantly Protestant. This high school is bucking that
:14:40. > :14:47.trend. Extreme is of enterprise and parental involvement. It has a zero
:14:47. > :14:53.tolerance policy for bad behaviour. All the boys who come in are
:14:53. > :14:58.considered to have failed the 11 plus. Their self-esteem is low. We
:14:58. > :15:03.try to build on that. You look at the learning process. The
:15:03. > :15:08.examinations up to GCSE and A-level have gone through the roof. Now
:15:08. > :15:14.they are starting to achieve at a very, very high level. These
:15:14. > :15:18.students finishing off their French exams may be too young to know it
:15:18. > :15:22.but research suggests a low educational achievement and often
:15:22. > :15:26.lead to unemployment, poor or mental and physical health, drug
:15:26. > :15:32.use and criminality. Issues of social inclusion -- exclusion which
:15:32. > :15:37.are likely to become more topical now with public spending cutbacks
:15:37. > :15:42.will stop how times have changed. It is not so long ago that Belfast
:15:42. > :15:48.was the main centre of heavy industry with a unionised workforce.
:15:48. > :15:56.Some say that the loss of both have vastly affected loyalist self-
:15:56. > :16:01.confidence. In was every street we had that the union leader, a shop
:16:01. > :16:06.steward, with the demise of the Engineering Works and manufacturing
:16:06. > :16:16.in general having gone down, these were highly unionised and it has
:16:16. > :16:20.
:16:20. > :16:24.stripped a lot of organisation from During the Good Friday talks, it
:16:24. > :16:28.seemed to somersault the emergence of the French parties like the
:16:28. > :16:33.Progressive Unionists would give an your voice to the loyalist working-
:16:33. > :16:39.class, but it was not to be. Falters at the recent elections
:16:39. > :16:44.returned to know p u p Associated MLAs, raising questions about the
:16:44. > :16:49.party's future. The political product of the Progressive Unionist
:16:49. > :16:55.Party was twofold. All want to transform Param militarism to the
:16:55. > :16:58.point where it came to an end and secondly to work on the progress of
:16:58. > :17:05.social policy issues that would transform a loyalist working-class
:17:05. > :17:11.communities. Again, around the issues of housing and a poor health,
:17:11. > :17:17.of community ownership. Unfortunately, I think that the
:17:17. > :17:23.continued existence and the continued activities of the UVF has
:17:23. > :17:27.destroyed that political product. Dawn Purvis resigned as PUP leader
:17:27. > :17:32.because it fits in the party was unable to emerge from the shadow of
:17:32. > :17:36.the gunman. These meals in Belfast were started during the recent air
:17:36. > :17:44.Assembly election campaign. They were seen by some as the UVF
:17:44. > :17:47.hardliners attempting to undermine political loyalism. But some say
:17:47. > :17:53.that is nonsense and that the new rules really see the committee
:17:53. > :18:03.remembering its heritage. Members of the pump -- paramilitary play a
:18:03. > :18:11.
:18:11. > :18:20.big part in the PUP. They do not, and let me tell you, they do not
:18:20. > :18:23.order the PUP what to say and do. The party does that themselves.
:18:23. > :18:31.issues of social inclusion are expected to get worse because of
:18:31. > :18:37.the cutbacks. The PP that has its roots -- the PUP in the way this
:18:37. > :18:46.has its roots in a loyalist records as this to say. The biggest problem
:18:46. > :18:50.in East Belfast is low educational attainment. The number of people in
:18:51. > :18:56.debt, the number of people who are having problem with mental health
:18:56. > :19:00.issues, as an example. We are now in government and I think we have
:19:00. > :19:06.the power and influence to change things for the better in those
:19:06. > :19:09.communities. Although a way that we will be re-elected back in East
:19:09. > :19:14.Belfast is that if we work on behalf of all of the people. There
:19:14. > :19:20.is a good deal amount of -- There is a good deal of scepticism that
:19:20. > :19:26.the PUP will be able to deliver. They say that while the PUP might
:19:26. > :19:30.be the party of the working class, it is not for the working class.
:19:30. > :19:35.there is a need and an opportunity that exists at the present for a
:19:35. > :19:40.new political entity or a new political discussion or debate
:19:40. > :19:46.around to who actually does represent the interests of the most
:19:46. > :19:52.vulnerable in our society. Others on the left of Unionism see no
:19:52. > :19:57.point in a new party. They are prepared to give do PE p and Sinn
:19:57. > :20:02.Fein Executive time to see if it can deliver on social issues.
:20:02. > :20:08.Ultimately, it will be the voters who delivered their verdict and the
:20:08. > :20:11.young who will inherit the policies of all the generations.
:20:11. > :20:13.The row over Mary McArdle's appointment as a Sinn Fein special
:20:14. > :20:15.advisor has focused attention on the wider question of where former
:20:16. > :20:18.paramilitaries should fit into post- conflict Northern Ireland.
:20:18. > :20:22.And this week a two-day conference has been addressing those very
:20:22. > :20:31.issues. Among the delegates, the UDA leader Jackie McDonald and the
:20:31. > :20:37.former IRA man Seanna Walsh. Is there an issue that has come out
:20:37. > :20:43.of this controversy that nobody objects to paramilitaries being
:20:43. > :20:46.reintegrated and having a life, but go about it quite like, is the
:20:46. > :20:52.message, do not for what in the faces of everybody else. Is that
:20:52. > :21:01.the message? That may be the message that the BBC or of the
:21:01. > :21:10.media or the great and the good are putting out there, but... Or the
:21:10. > :21:14.victims? It may well be. For the likes of myself, I was released
:21:14. > :21:18.under the Good Friday Agreement as an acknowledgement that I was in
:21:18. > :21:28.jail as a result of the political conflict here. I did feel that I
:21:28. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:35.have to hide anywhere. -- I'd do not feel. I acknowledge people
:21:35. > :21:39.suffering and heart, but I also feel that there is nothing that
:21:40. > :21:44.people like myself for people like me can say that is going to in any
:21:44. > :21:49.way to take away from the heart. is not a matter of what you say, it
:21:49. > :21:57.is a matter of what you do. The not pick yourself right in people's
:21:57. > :22:07.faces. The media picked Navy McArdle in people's faces. -- made
:22:07. > :22:14.
:22:14. > :22:18.a McArdle. Nobody knows the answers to those questions, because it was
:22:18. > :22:26.not an issue. I believe our political opponents have decided to
:22:26. > :22:32.make it an issue. They are attempting to put stuff out there
:22:32. > :22:36.to trap people up, to cause problems. You supported Sinn Fein's
:22:36. > :22:40.appointment and you think there is nothing wrong with it yourself?
:22:40. > :22:44.did not say that. All I said was that as an ex political prisoner
:22:44. > :22:49.myself, with many friends that serve the life sentences, it would
:22:49. > :22:54.be hypocritical of me to criticise. I would like to think that if any
:22:54. > :23:03.of them had the opportunity, unlikely as it may seem, to become
:23:03. > :23:11.an adviser, I like to think that they would take that opportunity.
:23:11. > :23:15.It is the symbolism of it. Ex- prisoners say they want to be
:23:15. > :23:21.treated equally, and yet, some people say that they get more
:23:21. > :23:28.support than the victims did. very frustrating, let me tell you,
:23:28. > :23:38.to be annexed combat and, an ex- prisoner. It is frustrating to be a
:23:38. > :23:41.
:23:41. > :23:46.victim. When I first heard of the appointment and I saw the reaction,
:23:46. > :23:51.I thought they were rubbing salt in the wins a little bit. And then I
:23:51. > :23:56.thought about all the friends that I had who were genuinely fearless
:23:56. > :24:00.people and were drawn into -- sincere people, who were drawn into
:24:00. > :24:10.conflict. You had this conference and you have been looking at a lot
:24:10. > :24:15.
:24:15. > :24:22.of issues. For us, it is about the quality of citizenship. For
:24:22. > :24:27.prisoners, or even political ex- prisoners, there are issues around
:24:27. > :24:37.travel, employment, insurance, to do with mortgages and stuff like
:24:37. > :24:37.
:24:37. > :24:47.that. We are endeavouring to have some of those problems resolved.
:24:47. > :24:49.
:24:49. > :24:57.And, as I say, it is a quality of citizenship. We're talking with the
:24:58. > :25:06.police about policing in the community and where X
:25:06. > :25:12.paramilitaries fit into society. At one time, paramilitaries had a
:25:12. > :25:16.complete disregard for the community and the police. But we
:25:16. > :25:26.are on a journey now. We have to accept that not everybody thinks
:25:26. > :25:27.
:25:27. > :25:36.that ex-prisoners R -- or her ex, battens are flavour of the month. -
:25:36. > :25:42.- combat since. A look on the Internet for responses. Here are
:25:42. > :25:50.some wind I have put it. Terrorists are not victims. Get stuffed.
:25:50. > :26:00.problem, but on 5th May, the anniversary of Bobby Sands, out of
:26:00. > :26:00.
:26:00. > :26:06.20 MLAs elected, 19 of them are former prisoners. Three executives
:26:06. > :26:15.are former prisoners. There is a feeling in the committee where I
:26:15. > :26:18.come from, that former political prisoners have a major role to play
:26:18. > :26:24.in creating a better future for all the people. There is not the same
:26:24. > :26:27.acceptance in the loyalist community. I was talking to some
:26:27. > :26:37.people this morning and some of them said that they thought it was
:26:37. > :26:40.
:26:40. > :26:45.an insult. Others said to me, would it be the same interest if it had
:26:46. > :26:52.been a bricklayers Dr? That is a question that some people have to
:26:53. > :26:56.answer for themselves. A I believe that we have to move on. The
:26:56. > :27:02.prisoner and the X combatants cannot claim all the credit for the
:27:02. > :27:07.peace process. It cannot be like oil and water. Everybody has to
:27:07. > :27:12.work together. A sort of Pearce's here, but we have to still work on
:27:12. > :27:18.it, it is not guaranteed. In terms of the work that prisoners are
:27:18. > :27:28.doing, there is this schools project now. What do you think that
:27:28. > :27:36.
:27:36. > :27:44.will do, to influence the future? Hopefully, the likes of of Charter
:27:44. > :27:53.and all the different express -- prisoners groups can attempt to
:27:53. > :27:57.convey to those young people what the struggle in the past was about,
:27:57. > :28:06.what the peace process has done and how things have now changed and how
:28:06. > :28:11.kids today have the prospect of a future without guns. Can you talk
:28:11. > :28:16.about the conflict from your point of view without glamorising it?
:28:16. > :28:20.was a conflict. War is about people getting killed and telling and
:28:20. > :28:30.there is absolutely nothing glamourous about a war or a
:28:30. > :28:30.
:28:31. > :28:36.conflict. I do not think that we have ever attempted to glamorise it.
:28:36. > :28:44.By us going into schools and talking to 14 or 15 Urals, we do de
:28:44. > :28:49.glamorise the whole situation. We explain the down sides. Prison
:28:49. > :28:57.destroys people, families. It is not the glamour or that you see in
:28:57. > :29:00.the films or in the TV. Thank you very much for your thoughts.
:29:00. > :29:10.And that's where we leave it this time round. We'll be back next week
:29:10. > :29:14.
:29:14. > :29:20.at the usual times. Until then, goodbye.
:29:20. > :29:26.Our politicians are getting on all right. David Fortis still standing
:29:26. > :29:30.up to the legal-aid lawyers. Our life as a kid, but trying to
:29:30. > :29:36.persuade us that they are underpaid his track -- like trying to
:29:36. > :29:40.persuade the Olympic athletes to train here. Thanks to Jim Allister,