0:00:19 > 0:00:25Hello and welcome to a new series of hearts and minds. Happy new year.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29But coming up - the Secretary of State wants to kick-start the
0:00:29 > 0:00:33process of dealing with the past but with no consensus its dormant,
0:00:33 > 0:00:38what is the point? The Iron Lady and the mini-skirted
0:00:38 > 0:00:47Fidel Castro - is fact or fiction the way to portray a historical
0:00:47 > 0:00:54figures? It is 2012 and we are no longer --
0:00:54 > 0:00:58closer to finding an agreement to move forward to. An attempt to
0:00:58 > 0:01:01kick-start an initiative and Owen Paterson is here. I wonder if your
0:01:01 > 0:01:07heart is really in these talks because we know you're not going to
0:01:08 > 0:01:12be heaving anything new, are you? We have been talking since we came
0:01:13 > 0:01:18to power. I was talking with the shadow Secretary of State before I
0:01:18 > 0:01:23took office. You are right, there is little consensus. There are
0:01:23 > 0:01:27those who think we should draw line and bring it to a halt and those
0:01:27 > 0:01:33who think we should have a major commission with an international
0:01:33 > 0:01:38figure chaining it. Then there are those in the middle. What I have
0:01:38 > 0:01:42found over the recent months, and I would stress that the Minister and
0:01:42 > 0:01:47myself have been talking to all the parties and we have spoken to
0:01:47 > 0:01:51numerous interests. A listening exercise. We have not been
0:01:51 > 0:01:56trumpeting this and bashing out press releases. We have been
0:01:56 > 0:02:01working away. What has happened recently which has attracted media
0:02:01 > 0:02:05attention is that following that the Assembly motion, I went to see
0:02:05 > 0:02:09the Speaker and took his advice and following that, I have written to
0:02:09 > 0:02:17the leaders of the main parties asking them to nominate someone who
0:02:17 > 0:02:23I can talk to. Sinn Fein said they have had no contact from you - lost
0:02:23 > 0:02:30in the post? I went to the post office and they were extremely busy.
0:02:31 > 0:02:39They have had an invitation. If you look at the government's position,
0:02:39 > 0:02:48we inherited inquiries. The Prime Minister got tremendous
0:02:48 > 0:02:55international recognition for her handling of the Savoy report. --
0:02:55 > 0:03:03Saville. If you look at what we have done rather than we have said,
0:03:03 > 0:03:07we have published these inquiries and then we had Nelson. We
0:03:08 > 0:03:11inherited an impasse. The last government offered an inquiry and
0:03:11 > 0:03:17the Government at the time tried hard to get acceptance, and they
0:03:17 > 0:03:23failed. They did not agree with the terms? They did not. In fairness to
0:03:23 > 0:03:28myself, I was the first Secretary of State to make sense 2006 and I
0:03:28 > 0:03:31said we would try to arrive at the truth. I have not promised the
0:03:31 > 0:03:36mechanism. We had a written statement in Parliament which we
0:03:36 > 0:03:40repeated again after two months of consultation. What we have done has
0:03:40 > 0:03:46come up with a mechanism that we think will arrive at the truth.
0:03:47 > 0:03:52What is unprecedented about this is for the Prime Minister to invite
0:03:52 > 0:03:59the family to meet him in person and to ask for an apology. Is this
0:03:59 > 0:04:03completely not enough for them? The family left in an absolute rage.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07For all the inquiry, and this is the only one that has had a huge
0:04:07 > 0:04:15police inquiry, perhaps the largest police inquiry in British history.
0:04:15 > 0:04:21More than 1 million pages of documents. Over 900 personal
0:04:21 > 0:04:28witness statements. 16,000 exhibits. There is an enormous archive in
0:04:28 > 0:04:35which lies the truth. We're very confident that we have persuaded a
0:04:35 > 0:04:40lawyer of absolute impeccable international reputation who sold
0:04:41 > 0:04:46off three assassination attempts when he got people off of death row.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50Is this more about the potential inquiry? All we know it is about
0:04:50 > 0:04:56your offer of a review of those millions of pages has left the
0:04:56 > 0:05:00family incandescent as they want to pursue legal action, plus they feel
0:05:00 > 0:05:08that they were going to be offered more than that and they felt
0:05:08 > 0:05:16completely let down when they went to Downing Street. The SDLP has
0:05:16 > 0:05:18said that the fuss over the case shows that the Government is not
0:05:18 > 0:05:24ready to permit proper investigation of things that has
0:05:24 > 0:05:29done wrong? I feel that is a wrong accusations. We made available a
0:05:29 > 0:05:38large archive, larger than was available to saddle. There are
0:05:38 > 0:05:44fewer witnesses arrive now it to this -- these terrible events. --
0:05:44 > 0:05:48Saville. We want to get to the truth and we believe the mechanism
0:05:48 > 0:05:53lies in this. Possibly the largest police investigation in British
0:05:53 > 0:05:59history and we have faced up to the fact that we'd have -- inherited
0:05:59 > 0:06:06and then pass. This terrible incident went back nine years. In
0:06:06 > 0:06:10fairness to the government, we have made a decision and take it forward.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Did you think it would be so terribly badly taken by the family?
0:06:15 > 0:06:20Did you think they would be so betrayed? I am genuinely
0:06:20 > 0:06:26disappointed because I did see this as good. Soon after we came to
0:06:26 > 0:06:30power, I made it clear to harp that we wanted to arrive at the truth. I
0:06:30 > 0:06:39did not have a great issue over whether it was an inquiry or what
0:06:39 > 0:06:42the issue was. -- the mechanism was. It is well known about my
0:06:42 > 0:06:48scepticism over the value and the ability of inquiries to get through
0:06:48 > 0:06:53this. We published the inquiry after a huge and very
0:06:53 > 0:06:59professional... You didn't decide who smuggled the gun? That is
0:06:59 > 0:07:03relevant. I am anxious to broaden the discussion because you're going
0:07:03 > 0:07:07to call these parties in and say to them, are right, what do you think
0:07:07 > 0:07:11we should do? Each party will say their own bit and none of them will
0:07:11 > 0:07:17agree and you'll have to do something. What will you do? As you
0:07:17 > 0:07:20know, I have been travelling around Northern Ireland and have been very
0:07:20 > 0:07:30public in my praise of some of their archives that have been built
0:07:30 > 0:07:35up. I have also, and the Prime Minister is well, have been very
0:07:35 > 0:07:41fulsome in praise of the historical inquiry team. You ran out of money
0:07:41 > 0:07:49until it was saved by the Justice Minister. Two points - satisfaction
0:07:49 > 0:07:52levels of over 90%. That is remarkable. There is also the issue
0:07:52 > 0:07:57of money, and this is where the past is a matter not entirely of
0:07:57 > 0:08:02the hands of the UK government. This is devolved and the Police
0:08:02 > 0:08:09Ombudsman is also devolved. They are all in devolved ministers'
0:08:09 > 0:08:15hands. This is a joint effort. consensus that did arrive, you
0:08:15 > 0:08:20would clearly have to fund that. This was part of the settlement. I
0:08:20 > 0:08:25discussed this with Shaun Woodward my predecessor. I you saying you
0:08:25 > 0:08:33will not pay for it? It was part of the demolition settlement. Bradley
0:08:33 > 0:08:36came up with an issue that may have cost �300,000. It seems to have
0:08:36 > 0:08:42gone into the bed now and no one has told you of it. Are you saying
0:08:42 > 0:08:46that he would not give any more money to any process? Their
0:08:46 > 0:08:52processes which are working well now which are wholly within the
0:08:52 > 0:08:55competence of devolved ministers here. You have been accused this
0:08:55 > 0:09:00week of washing your hands of all this - this sounds like washing
0:09:00 > 0:09:06your hands. Even where there are a consensus, you would go up give
0:09:06 > 0:09:12money to fund it? There are certain arrangements which are now entirely
0:09:12 > 0:09:16in local hands and a funded locally. They should come out of the
0:09:16 > 0:09:19significant settlement which is in the hands of the Executive here. I
0:09:19 > 0:09:28started my comments by pointing out there were other areas of activity
0:09:28 > 0:09:34such as the publication of reports. These are entirely in the hands of
0:09:34 > 0:09:38the UK government and in which we pay our part. -- play our part. We
0:09:38 > 0:09:45can work with local politicians but ultimately it is a team effort.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49have been listening, as you say. What conclusions have deformed?
0:09:49 > 0:09:53began with my comments, sadly there is no consensus. Someone to just
0:09:53 > 0:09:57the raw line and stop the whole thing. There's a whole spectrum of
0:09:57 > 0:10:02opinion going straight through to those who want a full commission
0:10:03 > 0:10:10staffed by some at international person of some repute. -- draw a
0:10:10 > 0:10:15line. I have met with parties over the last eight months and I hope we
0:10:15 > 0:10:19will find a way forward on which everyone can agree. This is
0:10:19 > 0:10:24entirely not in my hands. I can contribute and release some of the
0:10:24 > 0:10:27information which is in my hands, but much of this is also in local
0:10:27 > 0:10:31hands. You have done all this listening but you have not been
0:10:31 > 0:10:36able to for many conclusion as a result. That is depressing, is it
0:10:36 > 0:10:39not? It would be very unhelpful if the Secretary of State imposed
0:10:39 > 0:10:43something. You will have the parties and for talks, they will
0:10:43 > 0:10:47stick for their own guns, you pretty much know what they want
0:10:47 > 0:10:51individually, and none of it can be agreed as things stand at the
0:10:51 > 0:10:55moment. Will this line of talks simply end with no further
0:10:55 > 0:11:01conclusion? You're asking me to prejudge what comes out of these
0:11:01 > 0:11:06discussions. I am asking what you think is most likely to happen.
0:11:06 > 0:11:14have an idea in my head and that is built around the writing of
0:11:14 > 0:11:19histories and that was a key part of course of previous processes.
0:11:19 > 0:11:26There are many versions of history in Northern Ireland. If of course
0:11:26 > 0:11:36there are. Who is will dominate? That is for historians to decide.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40You can then have after the discussion. In parallel to that,
0:11:40 > 0:11:44you have the institutions I have mentioned... You're saying to me
0:11:44 > 0:11:47that what we're going to do for you is build an archive in which she
0:11:47 > 0:11:52will be able to read the documents that were around at the time of
0:11:52 > 0:11:58your loved one. I would not be very happy with that. I am not sure
0:11:58 > 0:12:05you're right there when you look at the satisfaction figures. What they
0:12:05 > 0:12:08it E G T shows is that for many of the families, although the real
0:12:08 > 0:12:13details of those who might have committed some of these terrible
0:12:13 > 0:12:21crimes are not revealed, getting to some of the facts around the deaths
0:12:21 > 0:12:27for the injuries of a very dear relations does bring satisfaction.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32-- HET. They have shown that they often cannot get to the truth. At
0:12:32 > 0:12:38the time, DNA technology not exist or evidence had to be cleared away
0:12:38 > 0:12:43and a hurry because of the dangerous circumstances. Some of
0:12:43 > 0:12:47those instances, we will never know. We have to face that and that is a
0:12:47 > 0:12:51tragedy, but what I think is fascinating about their work, is
0:12:51 > 0:13:01that by getting some way to the truth they do bring satisfaction
0:13:01 > 0:13:01
0:13:01 > 0:13:04and help to those families. Thank Owen Paterson has asked the
0:13:04 > 0:13:08Stormont party leaders, as Secretary of State for Northern
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Ireland, to come and talk to him about dealing with the past. The
0:13:11 > 0:13:15politicians will want to show willing. And Mr. Paterson is doing
0:13:15 > 0:13:19what Naomi Long scolded him to do, but he inspires scant confidence.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22Pleasant chap, but he flits about. Messy. There's the Royal pardon for
0:13:22 > 0:13:28Marian Price that's gone missing, so she's been in Maghaberry male
0:13:28 > 0:13:30prison since last May, purely on Mr. Paterson's say-so. There's his
0:13:30 > 0:13:36little crush on the Boston College collection of tales from old
0:13:37 > 0:13:41paramilitaries. Kernel for a bigger project on the past, says Mr P. The
0:13:41 > 0:13:44PSNI got there first, and kicked that notion around a bit. Less than
0:13:44 > 0:13:46three months ago, Owen Paterson announced what sounded like his own
0:13:46 > 0:13:53ideal solution, rubbishing others in passing - particularly
0:13:53 > 0:13:55independent inquiries. He told a fringe meeting at the Tory
0:13:55 > 0:13:58conference that the Historical Enquiries Team, the mix of
0:13:58 > 0:14:04detectives from Britain with local back-up who comb over unsolved old
0:14:04 > 0:14:09cases and then meet relatives of the dead, was "the right route". No
0:14:09 > 0:14:12need for a "shiny new organisation". HET reports had revealed the
0:14:12 > 0:14:18tragedy, said Paterson, that some deaths would never be solved - and
0:14:18 > 0:14:20not by a panel "probably chaired by a blond Finn." This was clearly a
0:14:20 > 0:14:25swipe at Sinn Fein's oft-repeated call for an independent,
0:14:25 > 0:14:31international truth commission. Sinn Fein's current "victims'
0:14:31 > 0:14:34spokesman" Mitchel McLaughlin calls it a "truth recovery process." A
0:14:34 > 0:14:38"blond Finn" in the chair isn't specified in the McLaughlin game-
0:14:38 > 0:14:41plan. Presumably this was a hiss of right-wing Tory loathing for
0:14:41 > 0:14:49outsiders adjudicating on UK affairs - fed in the days when
0:14:49 > 0:14:54every decomissioning or oversight body seemed to have a Scandinavian.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57But a month after the blond Finn speech, there was more Paterson.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01This time it was "historians rather than lawyers", a thought he has had
0:15:01 > 0:15:06for a while. A panel of historians, presumably raven-haired, should get
0:15:06 > 0:15:12access to documents, and produce an agreed history of the Troubles.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14Only Hillsborough Man could imagine such unity. Arise Lord Professor
0:15:14 > 0:15:20Bew, leave the lecture-hall Dr Feeney - gather keen young scholars
0:15:20 > 0:15:25around you. And the years creep by Truth commissions have a mixed
0:15:25 > 0:15:31record. Republicans, confident that no British government will open all
0:15:31 > 0:15:34the files on their own armed forces, are making a safe demand. They get
0:15:34 > 0:15:39credit with their own people, perhaps, and the less-informed
0:15:39 > 0:15:42elsewhere, for apparent willingness to come clean. But few believe that
0:15:42 > 0:15:48killers, or those who gave orders, paramilitary or official, will ever
0:15:48 > 0:15:51tell the whole truth. The coordination that the tidy-minded
0:15:51 > 0:15:59Naomi wants is anyhow unlikely, but what politicians and historians can
0:15:59 > 0:16:02agree is irrelevant. Those who lost people also disagree. The bereaved
0:16:02 > 0:16:06and injured must get the financial and other help they need as they
0:16:06 > 0:16:08age. Beyond that, decency demands acknowledgement of those left, and
0:16:09 > 0:16:16their beloved dead - that officialdom, and this society,
0:16:16 > 0:16:20should list all those killed in the Troubles. That their deaths are not
0:16:20 > 0:16:23forgotten. The thoughts of Fionnuala O'Connor.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26And as we continue to grapple with ways of finding and facing the
0:16:26 > 0:16:30truth about what happened in our conflict, two films this week offer
0:16:30 > 0:16:32radically different ways of relating history. In one, Hollywood
0:16:32 > 0:16:37has Meryl Streep portraying Margaret Thatcher looking back over
0:16:37 > 0:16:40her political life from her semi- bewidered old age. The other is a
0:16:40 > 0:16:44pure documentary treatment of the career of one of Ireland's
0:16:44 > 0:16:46strongest political personalities, Bernadette McAliskey, nee Devlin.
0:16:47 > 0:16:56Before we discuss the different approaches, here are a couple of
0:16:56 > 0:17:04Are you saying you want to be Prime Minister? This is my duty and my
0:17:04 > 0:17:09ambition. The rest of us, me, the children, we can go to hell. Where
0:17:09 > 0:17:19there is discord, may we bring harmony. Shoulders back, stomachs
0:17:19 > 0:17:20
0:17:20 > 0:17:26in. The most hated government... could not possibly buckle.
0:17:26 > 0:17:33medicine is harsh, but the patient requires it. We must be careful not
0:17:33 > 0:17:39to trust one's colleagues' loyalty. Her cowardice. Miss Bernadette
0:17:39 > 0:17:44Devlin, newly elected MP from Mid Ulster, arrived at Seathwaite --
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Heathrow airport. This 20-year-old girl, looking like a schoolgirl,
0:17:49 > 0:17:58long brown hair falling to her shoulders, giving the impression of
0:17:58 > 0:18:01a demure little Alice In Wonderland. Do you intend to apologise?
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Joining me now are Lisa Fitzpatrick from the University of Ulster, and
0:18:06 > 0:18:11the Belfast Telegraph's political editor Liam Clarke. There you
0:18:11 > 0:18:17covered the careers of both these women. Which approach rang more
0:18:17 > 0:18:22true for you? Well, I must admit I liked the Thatcher film better. A
0:18:22 > 0:18:26lot was left out, but it wasn't a straight biography. It referred
0:18:26 > 0:18:32back to various points in her life and how she remembered them.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37Anybody who's had to deal with somebody like her will find this
0:18:37 > 0:18:42quite a compelling portrayal in how somebody can be broken down. I
0:18:42 > 0:18:50looked at the film like that. The Bernardette film, the archive
0:18:50 > 0:18:56footage was fantastic, I loved sporting people -- spotting people.
0:18:56 > 0:19:02But I did feel it was a very simple linear treatment and it was
0:19:02 > 0:19:06completely uncritical. There was no reflection, no interrogation of the
0:19:06 > 0:19:10subject, there wasn't an awkward question. For that reason, it
0:19:10 > 0:19:15probably fell down a little bit as a documentary, but I did enjoy
0:19:15 > 0:19:21watching the old footage. Neither of the two approaches was critical.
0:19:21 > 0:19:29Mrs Thatcher, we saw the riots, the poll tax riots, the miners' riots,
0:19:29 > 0:19:33and the conflict in the other film. But neither was challenged. No. The
0:19:33 > 0:19:40decision of the writer and director to tell Thatcher's story from her
0:19:40 > 0:19:46own viewpoint made the two films oddly similar, even though it they
0:19:46 > 0:19:50were using different media, biopic and documentary. But I did feel
0:19:50 > 0:19:56about the Thatcher film that we never really got to grips with the
0:19:56 > 0:20:03politics of the time and that a lot of the really controversial issues
0:20:03 > 0:20:09and decisions she made were passed over. And that we had her reacting
0:20:09 > 0:20:17emotionally to them. For example, the sinking of the Belgrano. But
0:20:17 > 0:20:22there was no digging into the rail politics behind it. All the
0:20:22 > 0:20:26implications of that. I suppose both are trying in their way to
0:20:26 > 0:20:32portray personalities. Do you think they are equally valid ways of
0:20:32 > 0:20:36doing it? What historical truth do you come away with from each film?
0:20:36 > 0:20:41I'm not sure how much historical truth we need from either of them.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46But what is interesting is to get that kind of information and to see
0:20:46 > 0:20:50something of the careers of two very controversial women who both
0:20:50 > 0:20:54entered politics at a time when they're -- there were very, very
0:20:54 > 0:21:00few women in the political sphere and who both overcame tremendous
0:21:00 > 0:21:04obstacles to take part in the way they did. Thatcher to a much
0:21:04 > 0:21:11greater extent than Devlin, whose political career was relatively
0:21:11 > 0:21:17short. It is interesting to see that kind of coverage of two female
0:21:17 > 0:21:22politicians. It is not that often that we get that kind of programme.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26They may not have achieved absolute truth, but was each her fair
0:21:26 > 0:21:30representation of its protagonist? There was not a complete portrayal
0:21:30 > 0:21:35of Thatcher's career. You did see the sinking of the Belgrano and
0:21:35 > 0:21:39that a lot of people died and that it was a controversial decision.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45The things left out work Pinochet, the Chilean dictator, she backed
0:21:45 > 0:21:52him to the end and really liked him. Also Mark Thatcher's outings with
0:21:52 > 0:21:58the mercenaries. He gave -- it gave the impression he was in Scotland
0:21:58 > 0:22:02on holidays. South Africa. You did not know he could not come back.
0:22:02 > 0:22:07That was something that was going to pray on somebody's mind at her
0:22:07 > 0:22:17stage. There were things left out in Bernadette, too. You can
0:22:17 > 0:22:20
0:22:20 > 0:22:26criticise it more because it was a linear documentary. You would
0:22:26 > 0:22:30expect her to be asked to stand over topics. It also showed her
0:22:30 > 0:22:33showing a lot of kindness to his son's afterwards, there was
0:22:33 > 0:22:37something not explored. There were a few other items like that. She
0:22:37 > 0:22:46was not asked any questions, she was not booked through her paces at
0:22:46 > 0:22:50all. -- put through. Do you think the writer Zettel with a view to
0:22:50 > 0:22:56expose some kind of truth or are they only interested in making a
0:22:56 > 0:23:01good story? Of course, a good story is at the heart of the film. As a
0:23:01 > 0:23:04portrayal of someone suffering from dementia who is dealing with this
0:23:04 > 0:23:09disappointment at the end of their life or the sense of sadness, I
0:23:09 > 0:23:13thought it was interesting from that perspective. Outside of the
0:23:13 > 0:23:20politics, that sort of intimate portrait, that made an interesting
0:23:20 > 0:23:23story. The Meryl Streep film have to assume no knowledge whatsoever.
0:23:23 > 0:23:28Would we assume the Devlin film would be made for people who had a
0:23:28 > 0:23:31lot of background knowledge? suppose it would, but you did get a
0:23:31 > 0:23:37fair bit of background put in. There were some things airbrushed
0:23:37 > 0:23:40out. The Thatcher film, people probably would have been familiar
0:23:40 > 0:23:47with the Falklands War and knew what happened, strikes in Britain,
0:23:47 > 0:23:51Thatcher being... You had those points of reference. But will it
0:23:51 > 0:23:57last in 10 years, will people remember it so much? We have had
0:23:57 > 0:24:01other films about prime ministers during their lifetimes, but this
0:24:01 > 0:24:07one showed her weakness more than the films made about Churchill
0:24:07 > 0:24:12during his time, which were pure celebration. Difficult, I suppose,
0:24:12 > 0:24:18to make films about people who are still alive. It must, the way you
0:24:18 > 0:24:22approach it? Of course. The greater the historical distance, the more
0:24:22 > 0:24:27perspective the film-maker can bring to it. I did think there was
0:24:27 > 0:24:31a certain amount of gender bias, we were looking at her as a mother and
0:24:31 > 0:24:37a wife as well as a politician in a way that the coverage of people
0:24:37 > 0:24:42like Churchill has never really concerned itself with. In both
0:24:42 > 0:24:45films, there was talk of sacrifice is made. Bernadette Devlin was a
0:24:45 > 0:24:50victim of them -- an assassination attempt and she talked about the
0:24:50 > 0:24:56effect on her family. That was something the two protagonists had
0:24:56 > 0:25:00in common. Yes, that was interesting, and Devlin... In fact
0:25:00 > 0:25:04-- the Thatcher film there is no real reflection on that issue. I
0:25:04 > 0:25:12was interested in what Devlin had to say about that and the impact on
0:25:12 > 0:25:15her daughters. She thought Grishin had been victimised. That was
0:25:16 > 0:25:22something I felt was a little bit airbrushed and should have been
0:25:22 > 0:25:26examined more. It was the Germans who wanted her and the British
0:25:26 > 0:25:32authorities basically stopped it. Questioning about a bomb attack at
0:25:32 > 0:25:37a barracks. That's right, attacks on British forces in Germany. Jack
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Straw halted the extradition on one occasion and then the Belfast
0:25:40 > 0:25:50courts did it another time. A little narrative given that people
0:25:50 > 0:25:51
0:25:51 > 0:26:00were out to get her. It was uncritical. Two women who wins by a
0:26:00 > 0:26:04strong feelings of love are hate. - - inspire. Yes. Good subject for
0:26:04 > 0:26:08documentaries or biopics. Yes, certainly. Both very influential
0:26:08 > 0:26:12women. Thatcher, I was in primary school when Thatcher was elected
0:26:12 > 0:26:16and I remember taking an interest in a childish way in this election
0:26:16 > 0:26:22in Britain and in the possibility of there being a woman prime
0:26:22 > 0:26:27minister. The fact that it now seems like something that is
0:26:27 > 0:26:34entirely possible and even quite normal is Thatcher's legacy in a
0:26:34 > 0:26:40positive sense. So I think they are hugely influential women. Would it
0:26:40 > 0:26:45be fair to say that Thatcher created her own scenario? She was
0:26:45 > 0:26:52something completely new whereas Bernadette Devlin was just a
0:26:52 > 0:26:56product of her time? Well, Bernadette Devlin, meeting her, at
0:26:56 > 0:27:01earlier stages, she was an incredibly forceful person. You
0:27:01 > 0:27:09kind of expected her to go on longer in politics than she did,
0:27:09 > 0:27:16and the assassination attempt sat her energy and one.. Thatcher, she
0:27:16 > 0:27:22did break the mould. I don't know if you could call her... We never
0:27:22 > 0:27:32had a woman prime minister before. But she did do it by becoming a man
0:27:32 > 0:27:32
0:27:32 > 0:27:38in a man's world, almost. She did it in a tough way and also by a
0:27:38 > 0:27:41deepening her voice. Spitting Image, she was portrayed speaking like
0:27:41 > 0:27:51Churchill, and Meryl Streep managed that very well. She was very shrill
0:27:51 > 0:27:55at the start. We must leave it there. The Bernardette documentary
0:27:55 > 0:27:58is showing at the Q FT in Belfast at the end of this month.
0:27:58 > 0:28:08And that's where we must leave it this time round. We'll do it again
0:28:08 > 0:28:13next week at the usual times. I Where did you get your licence
0:28:13 > 0:28:18from? Some carry on this week. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness
0:28:18 > 0:28:21are sick with jealousy. Scotland could be ended pendant in two years
0:28:22 > 0:28:27and they didn't even have to fire a shot in anger. You can love or hate
0:28:27 > 0:28:35Alex Salmond, but at least he's not worried about... They are taking
0:28:35 > 0:28:40away all of a fund. Hundreds are losing their jobs so we can't hate