:00:29. > :00:34.Hello. Welcome to the new season of Hearts and Minds. On the programme
:00:34. > :00:39.this evening: It all ended in tears for Margaret Ritchie, but will the
:00:39. > :00:42.new leader bring the SDLP better fortune? The return of the
:00:42. > :00:48.supergrass, but is justice itself on trial?
:00:48. > :00:53.And, guess who's on line for the top Civil Service job? Insiders
:00:53. > :00:58.only, please! Well the public think it's a stitch-up. That's what
:00:58. > :01:02.happens. So, by tomorrow, we'll know the names of the hopefuls
:01:02. > :01:09.putting their names forward for the leadership of the SDLP. The job
:01:09. > :01:13.many would see above the management of terminal decline. I am joined by
:01:13. > :01:19.Seamus Mallon. Mr Mallon, welcome to Hearts and Minds. Where did it
:01:19. > :01:25.all go wrong? Well, let's see where it went right. Let's start where it
:01:25. > :01:31.went right and look at the contribution of the SDLP for 20-odd
:01:31. > :01:35.years. At a time when there was no forum, no advantages, violence
:01:35. > :01:42.around us, we kept the belief in the political process alive. That
:01:42. > :01:47.was then, this is now. Yes, but I want to put it in that context. Now
:01:47. > :01:51.we have fell upon hard times, let me give you some reasons. Some of
:01:51. > :01:56.the reasons in which two sovereign Governments actually ditched the
:01:56. > :02:02.SDLP and the Ulster Unionist Party, so they could get the type of
:02:02. > :02:06.involvement of the DUP and Sinn Fein that they've got. That may be
:02:06. > :02:12.the way politics works. There are other reasons as well, not least
:02:12. > :02:20.the fact that we were referred to as selfish. Indeed when we took our
:02:20. > :02:23.political opposition by the hand give them the status they required,
:02:23. > :02:28.it's no surprise that they then started to outstrip us in the polls.
:02:28. > :02:32.Were you naive? I think I would say that we were thinking of the
:02:32. > :02:37.community before we were thinking of the party. So, in that sense....
:02:37. > :02:41.From now, and this is where we start. From now we think of the
:02:41. > :02:47.party. We have given our contribution to the community. We
:02:47. > :02:50.will deal with it in such a way that we will be demanding of the
:02:50. > :02:54.new leader the type of professionalism in terms of what we
:02:54. > :02:58.could do. Let's separate that over which we have no control, and there
:02:58. > :03:03.are things over which we have no control. From those things that we
:03:03. > :03:08.have control over, like membership, like organisation, like the quality
:03:08. > :03:14.of our representatives as MLAs and as district councillors. Like the
:03:14. > :03:19.way in which I, as an ordinary party member, portray the SDLP and
:03:19. > :03:24.the image of it. Now that.... that not the point - you've left it
:03:24. > :03:32.too late? No, I don't think so. This is one of the myths. It will
:03:32. > :03:35.be a long, hard way back. Let's build on it incrementally. Let's do
:03:35. > :03:40.it in such a way that everybody outside will know there is a new
:03:40. > :03:45.leader, that there is a policy and philosophy and position people can
:03:45. > :03:50.identify with, that the SDLP takes itself seriously. We can't expect
:03:50. > :03:55.other people to do it. Do you accept responsibility - you have
:03:55. > :03:59.criticised organisation and the way the party appears. Is it not the
:03:59. > :04:03.fact if you were concentrating on the wider good of the community you
:04:03. > :04:09.and Jon Hune did not prepare the way for a new generation to take
:04:09. > :04:12.over from you? There's some truth in that. Yes, at that period of
:04:12. > :04:16.time, with negotiations w the way in which we were trying to get a
:04:16. > :04:23.resolution of the problems, and think of the resolution of the
:04:23. > :04:28.problems, the way in which a new political structure was founded,
:04:28. > :04:35.north/south bodies were founded, east/west bodies. All those things
:04:35. > :04:39.were done in the worst of circumstances. Yes ve -- yes, there
:04:39. > :04:42.is a truth that you say that we did not give the time that we should
:04:43. > :04:49.have given to our more selfish needs. That will change. Now, when
:04:49. > :04:53.you start to weigh-in, and when I start to weigh what was right and
:04:53. > :04:57.what was wrong, it was absolutely right to ensure that the community
:04:57. > :05:01.did not live in fear. It was absolutely right that we had
:05:02. > :05:08.a police service that we could all identify with. It was absolutely
:05:08. > :05:15.right that we had a fair system of administration. But it is also
:05:15. > :05:20.right that the SDLP now looks after itself. Why do we need an SDLP now?
:05:20. > :05:24.We have these things. The things which distinguished you from Sinn
:05:24. > :05:31.Fein was your opposition to violence. Now everybody is opposed
:05:31. > :05:36.to violence. What is the role for the SDLP? Leave other parties aside.
:05:36. > :05:41.Let's say what I see our party as - a party of integrity, a party
:05:41. > :05:46.that's not going to have one set of policies in the Republic of Ireland
:05:46. > :05:51.and a different set of policies.... You said leave other parties out of
:05:51. > :05:55.it. I did not mention any party. all know what you're talking about.
:05:55. > :06:04.There are other parties in the south of Ireland as well. The
:06:04. > :06:11.ability to think our way into the future. Do you know, our perimeters
:06:11. > :06:16.didn't end on that date of good Friday, when the astkpwreement was
:06:16. > :06:19.-- agreement was signed. That is not the end of our political
:06:19. > :06:24.aspirations. I pose this question to yourself and to everybody else -
:06:24. > :06:30.does anybody imagine that the type of politics we have now will be
:06:30. > :06:35.with us in say 20 years time? Will the same type of people
:06:35. > :06:42.representing the same parties be switching, moving the deckchairs
:06:42. > :06:48.around on the deck of the Titanic to see how they will spend the �1
:06:48. > :06:53.billion. Will you put the SDLP into formal opposition? No. For this
:06:53. > :06:58.reason, A, we negotiated very hard on a non-inclusive basis and that
:06:58. > :07:05.includes us as well. Right, we are low down, on the lower rung of the
:07:05. > :07:11.ladder at the moment. OK, we have one minister. What is our aim? We
:07:11. > :07:16.go to two-three. We get to two- three, we aim for four-five. We
:07:16. > :07:21.don't let any of these things get in the way. Do people say you are a
:07:21. > :07:25.hopeful optimist? I am not an optimist, I am very much a realist.
:07:25. > :07:29.I do know within this community, and I am talking about the
:07:29. > :07:34.nationalist community and the unionist community there is a very,
:07:34. > :07:40.very big need for parties of integrity, parties who will have
:07:40. > :07:43.the vision for the future and parties who will not spend their
:07:43. > :07:46.political lives word-healing and looking after their own prospects.
:07:46. > :07:52.Thank you. There's been speculation about who will be slugging it out
:07:52. > :07:59.for the SDLP crown. My next guest will talk us through the names and
:07:59. > :08:06.give us the SP. You are both very welcome. Steve,
:08:06. > :08:11.it would be fair to say there's one certainty on this list and that's
:08:11. > :08:16.Patsy McGlone. H se probably the favourite. -- he is probably the
:08:16. > :08:21.favourite. He can put his head above the parapet. He argued change
:08:21. > :08:26.was needed and was prepared to take the risk. There was a possibility
:08:26. > :08:30.he had gone too soon and may only serve the purpose as acting for
:08:30. > :08:34.somebody else to come through. There is a growing feeling now that
:08:34. > :08:39.he's in a prime position. His critics are starting to chip away
:08:40. > :08:43.at the rational as to why he should be leader. One point which has been
:08:43. > :08:47.raised privately and will probably come up in the debates and become
:08:47. > :08:52.public, is they look across to the Ulster Unionist Party. They see
:08:52. > :08:58.that a rural MLA, perhaps not all that well known, I would say his
:08:58. > :09:01.constituency is elected leader of the unionist party, there are a few
:09:02. > :09:06.rumbling about his candidacy. His answer is he is a politician of
:09:06. > :09:09.some standing, of decades and he can argue against that. What we are
:09:09. > :09:17.yet to hear is a detailed explanation of what his big idea
:09:17. > :09:21.for the party is. That brings us to Alasdair McDonnell - what's the
:09:21. > :09:24.situation there? He's not giving his game away? The latest is
:09:24. > :09:28.Alasdair McDonnell has called a press conference for tomorrow
:09:28. > :09:32.morning, which has fuelled the speculation that Alasdair McDonnell
:09:32. > :09:37.will enter this race. I am on record as saying some in the party
:09:37. > :09:41.think that Alasdair McDonnell would need a silver steak through his
:09:41. > :09:46.heart to give up his ambition of being leader. He was narrowly
:09:46. > :09:52.defeated last time by Margaret Ritchie. He is MP and MLA. He did
:09:52. > :10:00.carve out a nearby for himself against the odds. Organisationally
:10:00. > :10:07.he seemed to have skills. Some see him as a bull in a chin that shop.
:10:07. > :10:13.He can be -- in a china shop. He can be quite blunt. He says he has
:10:13. > :10:16.the prescription to, as a doctor, he has the prescription to solve
:10:16. > :10:22.the SDLP's problems. He would be, I think a very serious contender.
:10:22. > :10:29.we come to the Environment Minister, who gave support to Margaret
:10:29. > :10:35.Ritchie. At the moment we realise we'll have four candidates. It
:10:36. > :10:41.seems there'll be sufficient nominations. Now Alex is a
:10:41. > :10:46.politician who within the SDLP has fought a lonely battle in Belfast.
:10:46. > :10:50.He was seen for a period as someone in a precarious position there. To
:10:50. > :10:54.become a minister he has raised his standing. He seems to have
:10:54. > :11:00.performed well. There is also, however, a perception though that
:11:00. > :11:08.on one hand he is seen as something of an intellectual powerhouse
:11:08. > :11:10.within the party, he seemed to be on a par to Mark Derkan. He has had
:11:10. > :11:15.tense encounters with other party members. There is a question
:11:15. > :11:21.whether he would be able to get sufficient support. The counter-
:11:21. > :11:26.argument is he could scope up support from Derry and South
:11:26. > :11:30.Belfast. That has benefited Margaret Ritchie in the past.
:11:30. > :11:36.McDevin who is a new boy. If he were to go he would be swimming in
:11:36. > :11:43.the same water as Derek Atwood. They are from the Labour part of
:11:43. > :11:51.the party. He did serve during the multi-party talks in 1988. He
:11:51. > :11:54.electorally doesn't have a great and he should put his ambition to
:11:54. > :11:59.the side. He was co-opted to Stormont and he was elected for the
:11:59. > :12:05.first time this year. He had a sweat to get elected. Supporters
:12:05. > :12:10.say he's young, he's fresh. He does not have the baggage of some of the
:12:10. > :12:20.other veterans, if you like. it's a four-horse race. Thank you
:12:20. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:25.for your expert commentary. It's not really like school,
:12:25. > :12:33.politics chugs on year round, as everyone knows. This summer we had
:12:33. > :12:35.an SDLP leadership tussle. This week's proposals for 16
:12:35. > :12:41.Westminster constituencies, not 18, which in turn would shrink the
:12:41. > :12:45.number of MLAs elected for the same constituencies. Oh, and a possible
:12:46. > :12:49.Sinn Fein candidate for President of Ireland, who says Gerry Adams
:12:49. > :12:52.won't run on the Sinn Fein platform. What?
:12:52. > :12:58.The police ombudsman faced the Assembly's justice committee as
:12:58. > :13:01.they came back from holiday. After three damning reports in his office
:13:01. > :13:06.the most recent omission by himself. He blamed the criticisms, not
:13:06. > :13:10.himself for the weird comment that the criticisms were becoming
:13:10. > :13:16.dysfunctional on their impact on the office. Minister for Justice,
:13:16. > :13:19.David Ford, seems to be willing to them them say, as Al wants to until
:13:20. > :13:22.next summer. That is justice delayed for the troubled victims
:13:22. > :13:26.whose troubled cases he cannot investigate until the office is
:13:26. > :13:30.straightened out and disaster for the post which means every once of
:13:30. > :13:34.credibility to strengthen respect for policing. Margaret Ritchie did
:13:34. > :13:38.what Al won't do and stood down when it became clear division over
:13:38. > :13:42.her leadership wouldn't help the poor old SDLP. Her going didn't
:13:42. > :13:47.completely clear the air. Patsy McGlone and Alasdair
:13:47. > :13:52.McDonnell went on striking posing as possible successors. McGlone up
:13:52. > :13:55.front, McDonnell hanging back, which is not a bit like McDonnell.
:13:55. > :14:00.He has to declare by tomorrow though. In the mean time he's had
:14:00. > :14:05.to face the long-expected proposal that re-jigging constituencies
:14:05. > :14:12.means the chop for his seat. Gregory Campbell is the other MP
:14:12. > :14:16.likely to be affected. It's goodbye to East London Derry, West Tyrone,
:14:16. > :14:25.Mid-Ulster, hello Glenshane and Mid-Tyrone. Boundary changes these
:14:25. > :14:30.days are mostly accepted. It is a matter of maths, or as wise old owl
:14:30. > :14:34.and former boundary commissioner, Maurice Hayes put it, whether you
:14:34. > :14:39.work around clockwise or anti- clockwise, the last guy gets
:14:39. > :14:45.squeezed. Cameron stayed quiet, so did the DUP. Although it looks like
:14:45. > :14:49.confining the SDLP to South Down and Foyle, there was no outrage and
:14:49. > :14:54.solidarity at the lost of West Belfast. Not a good week for a guy
:14:54. > :15:00.called Al. For Sinn Fein though, it was another lunge towards the right,
:15:00. > :15:04.a sizable crowd on the water front for their first Northern Ard Fheis,
:15:04. > :15:11.plus a former presbyterian chaplain, to hail Martin McGuinness as one of
:15:11. > :15:14.the great leaders and his friend. A bit of presbyterian flintiness
:15:14. > :15:18.would have pleased the Martin McGuinness theme of reaching out to
:15:18. > :15:28.unionism. Where's the challenge in reaching out to a marsh mellow?
:15:28. > :15:34.Reverend Latimer may have overdone In this age of equality of
:15:34. > :15:39.opportunity you would think the Civil Service which be a beacon but
:15:39. > :15:45.that is not the case. They are looking for a new top cap but only
:15:45. > :15:53.internal candidates need apply. Our reporter investigates the closed
:15:53. > :15:58.ranks of Our civil service. As these members of the Civil Service
:15:58. > :16:02.limber up for the year ahead, who will be in charge? There is no
:16:02. > :16:08.doubt that leading the Northern Ireland Civil Service is a tough
:16:08. > :16:13.job. You will be responsible for 12 departments with a combined staff
:16:13. > :16:20.of 28,000. What sort of qualities do you need to lead the Civil
:16:20. > :16:27.Service team? My successor has to be someone who can be firm with our
:16:27. > :16:31.political masters. Absolutely, no- nonsense with that lot. Joking
:16:31. > :16:39.aside, there are concerns that the Civil Service can be a law unto
:16:39. > :16:45.itself. There are very upset established procedures that you
:16:45. > :16:52.have to go through in order to make policy. You have to go through the
:16:52. > :16:56.civil service and work with them. I found early on they were only too
:16:56. > :17:00.anxious to facilitate you in making policy, but there were times when I
:17:01. > :17:07.found them a bit obstructive because they thought that they knew
:17:07. > :17:12.better than I did. The best dates back to direct rule. Civil servants
:17:12. > :17:16.were required to undertake tasks which would normally have fallen to
:17:16. > :17:22.ministers. Devolution itself has changed the situation where it is
:17:22. > :17:28.now properly the devolved ministers who stand out in public and not
:17:28. > :17:36.civil servants. What about the make-up of the civil service? It is
:17:36. > :17:46.still, in the words of one critic, male, pale and steel. There has
:17:46. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:57.never been a woman head for example. -- stale. The Northern Ireland
:17:57. > :18:05.Civil Service has not moved with the times. Compared to England
:18:05. > :18:12.often the higher echelons of and a more diverse range of people.
:18:12. > :18:19.the present head took over in 2008, the post was advertised internally
:18:19. > :18:23.and externally. This time, it is only open to those already in the
:18:23. > :18:29.Northern Ireland Civil Service. This former head said that is
:18:29. > :18:34.because the job requires a complex range of skills. It is unlikely you
:18:34. > :18:40.could develop those skills other than through many years of training
:18:40. > :18:44.and experience within the Civil Service. You would not take another
:18:44. > :18:50.profession like the army for example and appoint a biology
:18:50. > :18:55.teacher as their head. While the guessing game over which internal
:18:55. > :19:01.candidate will get the job has started, the appointment process
:19:01. > :19:07.has been questioned. The body that oversees the appointments of senior
:19:07. > :19:12.civil servants have expressed great concern that the post will be
:19:12. > :19:16.filled through internal competition. In response, the Northern Ireland
:19:16. > :19:26.Civil Service says such appointments in Dublin and London
:19:26. > :19:31.are all sorts internal. -- also internal. The public think it is a
:19:31. > :19:36.stitch-up. People will say there is no point in applying for this post
:19:36. > :19:41.because it has already been fixed, I would say that is not the way it
:19:41. > :19:47.is. Alex Attwood is calling for the process to be suspended until it
:19:47. > :19:51.can be discussed by the Executive next week. I wrote to Peter
:19:51. > :19:57.Robinson and Martin McGuinness on 3rd September saying I did not
:19:57. > :20:00.agree with the approach they have adopted. The head of the Civil
:20:00. > :20:04.Service has particular responsibilities to their office
:20:04. > :20:14.and also to the Executive, permanent secretaries and
:20:14. > :20:15.
:20:15. > :20:20.Government in general. It is not something to be decided by them in
:20:20. > :20:23.private for whatever reason. We cannot have a situation where the
:20:23. > :20:28.head of the Civil Service is appointed through private
:20:28. > :20:35.competition whereas the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland is
:20:35. > :20:41.appointed through open competition. So, while the competition may be
:20:41. > :20:49.under way, how the post is filled is still in dispute. Whoever takes
:20:49. > :20:53.over the post is guaranteed do have a high profile start to the role.
:20:53. > :20:59.The Supergrass trials of the 1980s collapsed with hundreds of
:20:59. > :21:07.convictions overturned. The process is under way again with 14 UVF
:21:07. > :21:14.suspects in the dock. Will the result be any different this time?
:21:14. > :21:20.Mary O'Rawe, you are a lecturer in law, it is still a very high-risk
:21:20. > :21:25.strategy, isn't it? The pendulum has swung both ways now. We have
:21:25. > :21:30.the human rights Act in place which did not exist in the 80s. The right
:21:30. > :21:37.to silence has been eroded. Did add a number of issues that need to be
:21:37. > :21:42.taking into account. What are they? The fundamental issue is we are
:21:42. > :21:45.looking to convict people on the basis of evidence that is dodgy. If
:21:45. > :21:50.people have been involved in criminality themselves they have
:21:50. > :21:54.their own reasons for giving evidence. In the background of that
:21:54. > :21:59.there is the police motivation for getting certain people off the
:21:59. > :22:03.streets. Some of the motives will come out in trial but there is
:22:03. > :22:11.still a lot of questions over the morality of dealing with justice in
:22:11. > :22:17.this sort of way. Your son was a victim of a UVF killer and he was -
:22:17. > :22:26.- his killer was brought to justice in a similar way. What is your
:22:26. > :22:31.view? There are differences from the 80s until now. I agree with the
:22:31. > :22:39.system, providing it is done properly. There is no doubt that
:22:39. > :22:44.the ones who have turned Supergrass are assisting offenders and they
:22:44. > :22:48.are benefiting from the process. It will be a matter for the judge to
:22:48. > :22:54.decide. It is all down to credibility. If they deem them
:22:54. > :23:02.credible witnesses then fine. We are talking about people who have
:23:02. > :23:06.been animals, involved in the highest levels of crime. My own
:23:06. > :23:13.personal opinion and other people's opinions of whether they should get
:23:13. > :23:17.these deals or not I think, it is a good thing. Talking about the
:23:17. > :23:24.morality of it, in terms of the morality do you think it is fine
:23:24. > :23:27.because the end justifies the means of getting the convictions?
:23:27. > :23:32.morality... At the end of the day, there are families sitting here who
:23:32. > :23:37.would not have a hope in hell of getting people into court over
:23:37. > :23:43.their loved ones killings. If it is a system that change is that then
:23:44. > :23:48.fine. It must be done in the proper manner though. The whole defence
:23:48. > :23:53.rests on undermining the credibility of these witnesses. We
:23:53. > :23:57.have seen that this week in the High Court. They are accused of
:23:57. > :24:02.being befuddled with drugs and drink. That is going to be the
:24:02. > :24:07.whole thrust of the defence case. That is what happens in criminal
:24:07. > :24:12.trials. You try to undermine the prosecution evidence. If the
:24:12. > :24:17.evidence is based on people who, by their own admission, have been
:24:17. > :24:21.involved in quite heinous act and have histories of lying and
:24:21. > :24:28.difficulties themselves, possibly mental health vulnerabilities, all
:24:28. > :24:33.these things are factored into the next. It is not difficult to pick
:24:33. > :24:39.holes in a prosecution case like this. The question is can these
:24:39. > :24:45.convictions be sustained? In terms of credibility of witnesses and
:24:45. > :24:51.talking about UVF members being befuddled by drunk -- drugs and
:24:51. > :24:56.drink, that is not going to interfere with the credibility of
:24:56. > :25:00.the evidence, is it? There are people involved in peddling drugs
:25:00. > :25:06.in the community, involved in serious crime within their
:25:06. > :25:10.community, we are not talking about a quarter of the angels. It is an
:25:10. > :25:15.organisation involved in drugs and crime. None of what we are hearing
:25:15. > :25:21.should surprise us. I think the trial is a huge embarrassment for
:25:21. > :25:27.the UVF. Here we have former UVF members giving Supergrass evidence
:25:27. > :25:32.against other alleged members of the UDF. One of them is an alleged
:25:32. > :25:38.Special Branch agent. None of this is about defending Ulster or
:25:38. > :25:42.fighting the IRA, it is about loyalist infighting and criminality.
:25:42. > :25:52.The other big concern for the UVF is what they are looking at at the
:25:52. > :26:01.
:26:01. > :26:08.moment, it is the tip of de-ice prayer. -- the iceberg. A senior
:26:08. > :26:17.UVF figure is being debriefed who will be brought towards the four of
:26:17. > :26:25.the court. The difference between Haggerty and these footsoldiers is
:26:25. > :26:30.that he sat at the top of the table. He has evidence to expose the top
:26:30. > :26:35.leadership. You want to see these alleged handlers in court
:26:35. > :26:40.themselves? They are actually worse to me. They are worse than the
:26:40. > :26:45.people who carried out the killings. Those ones who carried out the
:26:45. > :26:49.killings, that is what they do, they are criminals. You expect
:26:49. > :26:53.better from the security forces and the different Government bodies to
:26:53. > :26:59.make sure the process is used right and people are brought to justice
:26:59. > :27:05.in the proper way. We have handlers here who were involved at the
:27:05. > :27:09.highest levels of murders and atrocities. People in the
:27:09. > :27:14.organisation were allowed practically a three round to do
:27:14. > :27:19.exactly what they wanted to do. As soon as the handlers are brought in
:27:19. > :27:23.examples are made of them so you can get this out of the system. How
:27:23. > :27:32.can you have faith in the security system and process if no one is
:27:32. > :27:37.being punished? The you think it seems our security system is
:27:37. > :27:41.getting its hands dirty with this type of process? I think you cannot
:27:41. > :27:48.avoid it. Is the price worth paying for putting a number of people
:27:48. > :27:53.behind bars for some time. We have to ask soul-searching questions, is
:27:53. > :27:58.this all our justice can deliver. For every story that is told there
:27:58. > :28:04.are a number of stories not being told. For everyone who is put in
:28:04. > :28:09.the dock the ran a number of others who are being protected from being
:28:09. > :28:17.put in the dock. If justice is seen to be done in a certain way that is
:28:17. > :28:23.bound to have, particularly at this fragile place in the peace protest
:28:23. > :28:30.-- process, it could be very damaging over much longer term.
:28:30. > :28:40.Thank you all for your insides. That is where we must leave it.
:28:40. > :28:42.
:28:42. > :28:47.Goodbye for now. Some carry on this week. Unemployment may be ageing
:28:47. > :28:56.but there is one job that will never be filled, public relations
:28:56. > :29:02.adviser to the Orange Order! Only orange men could successfully
:29:02. > :29:08.deflect attention from the Real IRA who were busy trying to murder a
:29:08. > :29:14.doctor. Meanwhile the Executive has so many issues to deal with the