:00:27. > :00:30.Look hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week, the
:00:30. > :00:35.Health Minister on his new blueprint for the NHS. Can it
:00:35. > :00:38.really be delivered? The Europe debate, why Northern Ireland still
:00:38. > :00:42.divides on classics sectarian lines. And is that a legislative
:00:43. > :00:46.instrument and your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me? Do we
:00:46. > :00:50.want beauty and brains in our politicians?
:00:50. > :00:54.Good evening. It would be fair to say the general response to this
:00:54. > :00:57.week's Compton review of the NHS has been favourable, with even the
:00:57. > :01:01.unions going for a broadly let's wait and see approach and that is
:01:01. > :01:05.the nub of the debate. It is all very well to promise abrade new
:01:05. > :01:08.world of home and individual centred care, but these are
:01:08. > :01:12.scarcely new concepts, so why should we be confident that vision
:01:12. > :01:16.will be developed -- will be delivered this time question might
:01:16. > :01:20.the Health Minister is with me. We heard people were abusing the NHS,
:01:20. > :01:24.people were smoking, drinking and eating themselves to illness. Isn't
:01:24. > :01:27.that another way of saying that the whole service would be fine if it
:01:27. > :01:31.was not for all the sick people? The Health Service has a budget and
:01:31. > :01:34.the budget we has dashed the we have is of sufficient to meet the
:01:34. > :01:39.needs of people. What I was pointing out yesterday was it was
:01:39. > :01:44.not sufficient to meet abuse. Currently, GPs will tell you around
:01:44. > :01:47.one third of their visits are a necessary. A&E Louis will tell you
:01:47. > :01:50.about a third of visits are unnecessary and the ambulance
:01:51. > :01:53.service says 20% of their calls should not happen and we have a
:01:53. > :01:59.considerable number of people who end up being treated because they
:01:59. > :02:03.have self-inflicted damage on themselves. Excessive eating,
:02:03. > :02:07.excessive drinking, excessive smoking, or a combination. Is your
:02:08. > :02:11.logic not to treat those people eventually? The logical extension
:02:11. > :02:14.of the argument is to better educate people as to the
:02:14. > :02:19.consequences they make in their lifestyle choices they make. Do
:02:19. > :02:25.people want to have good health on into their older years? Or do they
:02:25. > :02:28.want to be living with COPD, with diabetes, and perhaps Lou -- Louisa
:02:28. > :02:32.Lim? Those are messages people are not as well aware of as they need
:02:32. > :02:37.to be. Prevention is at the heart of the new strategy and yet the
:02:37. > :02:41.report itself tells us there are 340,000 people over the age of 16,
:02:41. > :02:45.who smoke. This is after decades of anti-smoking publicity and severe
:02:45. > :02:48.tax hikes. So while you might like to say people are going to have to
:02:48. > :02:54.look after themselves a bit better, it is really not going to happen,
:02:54. > :03:01.is it? I do not accept it is not going to happen. We are down to 24%,
:03:01. > :03:06.which is a reduction. 340,000 this people smoking, never mind obesity.
:03:06. > :03:11.In countries like New Zealand it is down to 13 or 14%, so there is more
:03:11. > :03:15.work that can be done. What scares me is in the 11-16-year-old, around
:03:15. > :03:20.10% are currently smoking so we are in it -- bringing in a ban on
:03:20. > :03:23.vending machines giving up cigarettes because a lot of people
:03:23. > :03:28.acquire facilities -- a quiet cigarette set those facilities.
:03:28. > :03:31.There is more that can be done and sometimes we will get challenged
:03:31. > :03:35.for doing that and say we are a nanny state, but we do need to make
:03:35. > :03:40.a change. One in two people who smoke die as a consequence. John
:03:40. > :03:44.Compton is talking about a fat task -- fat tax on crisps. Denmark did
:03:44. > :03:47.that. Is it something you would back? I am not sure we have the
:03:47. > :03:51.legislative ability to do that. It is something we should investigate
:03:51. > :03:56.further. We are looking at a minimum price for alcohol.
:03:56. > :04:01.Ultimately I think that government across the UK will be challenged on
:04:01. > :04:05.all these issues because if people are going to continue to eat food
:04:05. > :04:09.which is a really bad for them, getting to the point where they are
:04:09. > :04:13.obese, and those are consequences that we have diabetes, stroke and
:04:13. > :04:17.heart attack on a regular basis. The danger is you end up penalising
:04:17. > :04:22.the people who can least afford to be penalised, the people who were
:04:22. > :04:27.less well-off in society? It may incentivised people to eat foods
:04:27. > :04:30.perhaps that are still low-cost but are much healthier for them. We
:04:30. > :04:34.would encourage people to going back to some of the more
:04:34. > :04:37.traditional ways of life, where a good pot of stew or a good pot of
:04:37. > :04:42.soup was made in the household which is very nutritious at low
:04:42. > :04:46.cost. You are dreaming. Well, some people may say we are dreaming but
:04:46. > :04:49.we need to challenge and we can't continue to go on as we are
:04:49. > :04:53.currently doing and expect that the health service will sustain it and
:04:53. > :04:57.indeed our bodies will sustain it because they don't. It is terribly
:04:57. > :05:00.long term, isn't it? You are talking about this review, having a
:05:01. > :05:04.new system in five years, to bring our figures down in terms of
:05:04. > :05:08.obesity and abuse of alcohol and abuse of smoking, that is maybe a
:05:08. > :05:12.couple of generations, isn't it? Those are long-term things but we
:05:12. > :05:17.need to look at long-term measures on short-term measures, so what is
:05:17. > :05:20.proposed in the review is short term, we have relaunched the scheme
:05:20. > :05:24.for connected health, where we will monitor people in their own homes
:05:24. > :05:31.and that will reach about 20,000 people over the next six years. We
:05:31. > :05:35.will get significant results out of that. We will reduce mortality,
:05:35. > :05:40.morbidity and hospital appointments as a result. Money is at the centre
:05:40. > :05:45.of all office. The health service budget is something like �4.5
:05:45. > :05:49.billion and you are talking about moving �83 million from hospitals
:05:49. > :05:52.to community care and getting another �70 million from the
:05:52. > :05:56.Assembly to pay for retraining, which is again a central plank of
:05:56. > :06:01.this whole project. Those are tiny drops in the ocean, aren't they?
:06:01. > :06:08.Well, �83 million is not a tiny drop in the ocean. It is out of
:06:08. > :06:11.four under -- out of 4,500 million. I am sure the hospitals will think
:06:11. > :06:14.it is a significant sum. We are going to challenge the care that is
:06:15. > :06:19.provided. We believe that more care can be provided at the primary
:06:19. > :06:22.sector, at the community sector. We can make better use of multi-
:06:22. > :06:27.disciplinary teams and ensure we get better outcomes avoiding
:06:27. > :06:30.hospital admissions. But in their response to the draft budget
:06:31. > :06:34.earlier this year the Health and Social Care Board said it was
:06:35. > :06:38.already worried about money restricting access to community-
:06:38. > :06:43.care, reducing the grants available to the voluntary sector and
:06:43. > :06:47.generally reducing service levels, so that is before you even start to
:06:47. > :06:53.reform anything? Well, that is one of the issues we will have to look
:06:53. > :06:58.at. We have the budget that we have. Health came out of it not as badly
:06:58. > :07:02.as some departments in terms of the amount that came to Northern
:07:02. > :07:08.Ireland. Certainly we would like more money. Our budget is growing
:07:08. > :07:12.by 8% over four years. We require 4% each year-end inflation on top
:07:12. > :07:15.of that. If we don't do something then a lot of the cataclysmic
:07:15. > :07:18.things that were going to be announced last year and suggested
:07:18. > :07:22.last year would happen but if we can take accidents we can ensure we
:07:22. > :07:28.can get good outcomes on that. Given the financial restrictions
:07:28. > :07:32.this is the time to be thinking about replanning and reforming, in
:07:32. > :07:36.a way you are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, aren't
:07:36. > :07:39.you? We cannot afford not to do it. The health service is an
:07:39. > :07:43.unsustainable model, where we would be continuing to demand more and
:07:43. > :07:46.more money, to actually deliver a second Test -- a second-rate health
:07:46. > :07:50.care. We need to deliver better health care was better outcomes in
:07:50. > :07:53.a particular envelope. It is achievable and it is what we are
:07:53. > :07:56.going to do and this report will help us to do it. To those people
:07:57. > :08:00.who say one of the major reasons for putting care into the home is
:08:00. > :08:04.so you can rely more on unpaid family support, what do you say to
:08:04. > :08:09.that? We will be putting packages together to allow families to have
:08:09. > :08:13.the right support for their loved one to stay at home, but families
:08:13. > :08:18.do play a crucial role in office. They have done for years. I trust
:08:18. > :08:23.that families will still want to support their elderly relatives.
:08:23. > :08:27.you think it is realistic? It sounds like going back to the days
:08:27. > :08:31.of the goods part of Irish stew, society is different now, you can't
:08:31. > :08:34.rely on the family network. can't rely on the state to do
:08:34. > :08:36.everything for us. People do have responsibilities. We all have
:08:37. > :08:40.responsibilities to our own families and we need to show that
:08:40. > :08:44.but at the same time we cannot leave families about their hanging.
:08:44. > :08:47.We have to provide them with support, put the right care
:08:47. > :08:51.packages in place and what this document is proposing is giving
:08:51. > :08:55.people more control over their care packages. They have ownership. The
:08:55. > :08:58.families and carers get involved in the planning process. This is not
:08:58. > :09:03.something that we are wanting to offload work on to families and
:09:03. > :09:07.carers. It is bringing families and carers into the system. Do you
:09:07. > :09:11.think you need to stay at the health helm general elections and
:09:11. > :09:14.Assembly elections, not withstanding to see is this true
:09:14. > :09:18.for the next five years? No, I don't, I have started the course of
:09:18. > :09:21.work and with the support of my family I would do it. If someone
:09:21. > :09:28.else was put into the position they would carry on the work I have
:09:28. > :09:31.started. Minister, thank you very It's not only the Coalition that's
:09:31. > :09:34.split over Europe, Stormont is too! With wearying predictability, local
:09:34. > :09:37.politicians are divided over David Cameron's performance at the
:09:38. > :09:41.weekend. In a Stormont debate on Monday the unionists came together
:09:41. > :09:44.to congratulate him on his bulldog stance, while the SDLP described
:09:44. > :09:49.his use of the veto as regrettable and condemned him for not
:09:49. > :09:52.consulting them before he went to Brussels. Then on Tuesday, the DUP
:09:52. > :09:55.tabled a House of Commons motion commending the Prime Minister for
:09:55. > :10:01.his bullish, pro-British defence of the nation's interests, a motion
:10:01. > :10:05.which, predictably, the SDLP opposed. You see that's the great
:10:05. > :10:08.thing about Ulster politics, you can put it on a plane and take it
:10:08. > :10:11.anywhere! Where you take your broken arm in future is less
:10:11. > :10:14.certain now that there's a fifty- fifty chance that your local A&E
:10:14. > :10:18.department will have been closed! John Compton's long awaited review
:10:18. > :10:21.of the Health Service which came out on Tuesday, indicated that the
:10:21. > :10:26.number of hospitals providing A&E services in the Province is likely
:10:26. > :10:30.to be halved from ten to five. In Belfast it's likely to be at the
:10:30. > :10:32.Royal, and it looks as if both Daisy Hill and the Causeway are in
:10:32. > :10:38.for the chop, although understandably that's not an
:10:38. > :10:41.expression which hospitals like to use. This reduction in emergency
:10:41. > :10:45.provision is intended, among other things, to streamline A&E services
:10:45. > :10:50.and cut waiting times. Presumably in much the same way that closing
:10:50. > :10:53.two lanes of a motorway in the rush hour eases congestion! The only
:10:53. > :10:57.plausible explanation for this wacko logic is that John must have
:10:57. > :11:01.employed consultants. In an attempt to justify the closures the report
:11:01. > :11:04.pointed out that elsewhere in the UK, a population the size of
:11:04. > :11:07.Northern Ireland would be served by just four hospitals. It didn't
:11:07. > :11:11.point out, of course, that elsewhere in the UK a population
:11:11. > :11:14.the size of Northern Ireland would be served by just one Health Board!
:11:14. > :11:19.It's the familiar story of a ballooning bureaucracy and slashed
:11:19. > :11:22.front-end services. Slashing car insurance here is a matter of some
:11:22. > :11:26.urgency according to a report out on Wednesday by the Office of Fair
:11:26. > :11:31.Trading. They report that Northern Ireland motorists are considerably
:11:31. > :11:35.disadvantaged, which is OFT speak for "being ripped off"! It appears
:11:35. > :11:39.that we are paying on average 11% more for insurance than the rest of
:11:39. > :11:43.the UK. In fact, in rural areas some motorists are paying up to 70%
:11:43. > :11:46.more than their counterparts in Great Britain. The cite a number of
:11:46. > :11:50.factors for the disparity in premiums, but apparently one of our
:11:50. > :12:00.problems is that we adopt the same approach to car insurance that have
:12:00. > :12:00.
:12:00. > :12:03.The thoughts of Lindsay Allen. Beauty is of course in the eye of
:12:03. > :12:06.the beholder, but you might be wanting to call well-known high-
:12:06. > :12:12.street spectacle cellar for the veteran MP, who has claimed that
:12:12. > :12:16.the current Parliament is the most beautiful in years. Julia Paul puts
:12:16. > :12:19.that theory to the test. A sow, you are in London, you want to
:12:19. > :12:23.experience a bit of the high life. But on your glad rags, rub
:12:23. > :12:33.shoulders with the beautiful people. Apparently this is now the place to
:12:33. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:55.It is the most beautiful of parliaments in my 25 years here.
:12:55. > :13:00.For me, if he sets the bar that low, I am quite happy! There is this PUP
:13:00. > :13:07.view that politics is show business but ugly people. Politicians insist
:13:07. > :13:11.that politics is just about politics, nonsense.
:13:11. > :13:15.Well on a day like this it seems that the star of Westminster is
:13:15. > :13:20.this building itself. There is no doubt that the make-up of the House
:13:20. > :13:26.of Commons has changed. At 76, with six terms of office under his belt,
:13:26. > :13:30.Paul Flynn is what we call a veteran MP. The number of MPs who
:13:30. > :13:39.were staggeringly beautiful, not just good-looking, these are women
:13:39. > :13:43.and men too, mostly they are Burnett goddesses on our side and
:13:43. > :13:48.blonde goddesses on the conservative side. If you look and
:13:49. > :13:52.see these women, it is the most beautiful of Parliament in my 25
:13:53. > :13:57.years. No one seems to have noticed. He has written a book for
:13:57. > :14:03.backbenchers, how to be an MP. wanted everyone to know about this
:14:03. > :14:07.wonderful, amazing, staggering place and I wanted to pass on that
:14:07. > :14:11.enthusiasm. It is a very peculiar job to have, to be an MP, and
:14:11. > :14:15.they're all kinds of marvellous opportunities. You are mixing with
:14:15. > :14:25.some of the brightest and some of the strangest people of my
:14:25. > :14:26.
:14:26. > :14:29.generation, any generation, and it is an incredible place to be.
:14:29. > :14:32.does it feel to be a part of the most beautiful Parliament? Well, I
:14:32. > :14:37.did not have the experience of sitting through the previous
:14:37. > :14:41.parliament so I can't really comment. I have to say that for me,
:14:41. > :14:44.if he sets the bar that low, I am quite a bit. Beauty is in the eye
:14:44. > :14:48.of the beholder and all of these things are subjective. It is not
:14:48. > :14:52.about how the place looks, it is about what it does and the
:14:52. > :14:57.substance of the matter. Looks do matter because they are part of the
:14:57. > :15:00.personality, the presentation of a politician and that helps to get
:15:00. > :15:04.the public involved, gets them to watch the television, gets them
:15:04. > :15:10.interested in politics. Is it more about delivery, presentation,
:15:10. > :15:16.authority, but it is about good looks? It is to do with general cop
:15:16. > :15:20.on and the ability to engage to the review of the Listener. Does
:15:20. > :15:24.classic good looks matter in that? I don't think it does but someone
:15:24. > :15:29.like Zac Goldsmith, a Tory MP, he is gorgeous Klimesova ladies say
:15:29. > :15:32.and they are more likely to listen to what we're saying. Something as
:15:32. > :15:42.serious as politics should not be about looks, surely, it should be
:15:42. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :15:49.Robin Cook said that he was too ugly to be the Prime Minister, and
:15:49. > :15:53.he was right. People vote before the glamour people the one that
:15:53. > :15:58.they like. Tony Blair, who was a much more superficial character,
:15:58. > :16:03.was acceptable, he was a fine actor. We've got problems now with the way
:16:03. > :16:09.that the present Leader of the Labour Party looks weird. Hague is
:16:09. > :16:13.bald and he was unelectable as a Prime Minister. Now, we may well
:16:13. > :16:21.regret this, but this is the reality of modern life.
:16:21. > :16:26.everyone agrees. I'm reminded of a statue of Oliver Cromwell, he said,
:16:26. > :16:30."Paint me warts-and-all" and he was a man of substance - not very
:16:30. > :16:33.attractive. It is what Parliament does that makes it great, not how
:16:34. > :16:37.it looks. Parliament should be a reflection of the people. You see
:16:37. > :16:41.people with disabilities, you see people with different nationalities.
:16:41. > :16:45.If people is going to work, it needs to reflect all of the people
:16:45. > :16:49.and it needs to feel like you wouldn't feel out of place if you
:16:49. > :16:54.were there. Some claim that attractive people are inevitably
:16:54. > :16:58.more successful. If we have this Parliament which is full of such
:16:58. > :17:03.attractive MPs, do you think it will be a more effective
:17:03. > :17:09.Parliament? I think there's a huge amount of talent here. Generally,
:17:09. > :17:14.the people who are good-looking are comfortable in their skin and they
:17:14. > :17:18.don't fret about the way they look and their appearance and shape. So,
:17:18. > :17:25.they concentrate on other things. There is an advantage in saying
:17:25. > :17:28.that beautiful people often are the most effective as far as
:17:28. > :17:32.parliamentarians are concerned. Politicians are fully aware of this.
:17:32. > :17:37.This is the reason they spend so much money on image and on general
:17:37. > :17:42.presentation that they make to the public. They are sales people and
:17:42. > :17:46.sales people will always bare the looks and the sound in mind as much
:17:46. > :17:54.as the message -- bear the looks and the sound in mind as much as
:17:54. > :18:04.the message. Sorry, just glaming up! I am hoping I will be mistaken
:18:04. > :18:13.for an MP! -- glammin up! Julia Paul on the brains and beauty
:18:13. > :18:15.at Westminster. Whether you think David Cameron's tactics in Europe
:18:15. > :18:17.last week were catastrophic or masterful, Europhiles and
:18:17. > :18:20.Eurosceptics can agree that exercising the veto on reforms for
:18:20. > :18:23.the Eurozone has left Britain more isolated than at any time since it
:18:23. > :18:25.joined the Common Market. In this tiny corner of Europe, reaction was
:18:25. > :18:28.predictable, with Nationalists horrified, and Unionists jumping
:18:28. > :18:38.for joy. But what are the repercussions for us in Northern
:18:38. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:48.Ireland? Already, Angela Merkel is talking about Britain being an
:18:48. > :18:52.important partner in Europe, so it has been a storm in a teacup?
:18:52. > :18:56.warn people were exaggerating their jubilation and they were
:18:56. > :19:00.exaggerating the indignation on the other. An actual deal wasn't
:19:00. > :19:03.concluded in Brussels. Negotiations have to continue. That is the
:19:03. > :19:07.mistake David Cameron made. He took himself out of detailed
:19:07. > :19:10.negotiations that still have to take place. The package, I don't
:19:10. > :19:15.believe, is strong enough to solve the problems in the eurozone. I
:19:15. > :19:20.think there are other countries that feel that. They would be
:19:20. > :19:22.possibleallys for David Cameron in the continuing negotiations. In
:19:22. > :19:26.trying to get a strengthened outcome for the eurozone, he could
:19:26. > :19:30.try to get the safeguards he is talking about for the sterling zone.
:19:30. > :19:35.I don't agree with him. He has some of his priorities wrong. He is
:19:35. > :19:38.obsessing on the interests of the city rather than the wider sterling
:19:38. > :19:42.zone economy. The fact is, there are negotiations taking place.
:19:42. > :19:47.There's a lot of politics between now and March. He took himself out
:19:47. > :19:50.of it. Isn't it the problem, Nigel Dodds, Britain doesn't have a seat
:19:50. > :19:57.for these negotiations and that is something Margaret Thatcher never
:19:57. > :20:00.allowed to happen? I think something very important happened.
:20:00. > :20:04.That was the first time a British Prime Minister was prepared to
:20:04. > :20:10.stand up to some of the bullying and so on and the pressure that
:20:10. > :20:13.comes on from diplomats and all the rest of it. I think in the
:20:13. > :20:16.specifics of this particular instance, whatever about the
:20:16. > :20:21.implications of this in the long run, it is very significant in the
:20:21. > :20:24.long run. In this case, the negotiations may continue and all
:20:24. > :20:31.the dire predictions about being isolated and if the negotiations
:20:31. > :20:35.are going to go on, what was that all about? But the fact is, what
:20:35. > :20:43.are the negotiations going to be about? David Cameron said they are
:20:43. > :20:48.not going to be about wearing this treaty into the EU institutional
:20:48. > :20:52.arrangements. That is fairly important. So I think that the
:20:52. > :20:57.clear reaction across the country is whether you are a Labour,
:20:57. > :21:01.Conservative, Lib Dem, or neither of any of those, the clear reaction
:21:01. > :21:05.is one of overwhelming support. At long last a British Prime Minister
:21:05. > :21:10.has stood up to Europe and said, "Enough is enough." It was over
:21:10. > :21:17.nothing of any importance? At this point? I don't agree. I think the
:21:17. > :21:21.importance of this is that the eurozone crisis is as Mark has said
:21:22. > :21:24.absolutely critical. The leaders of the European countries were intent
:21:24. > :21:29.on institutional and treaty change for the future rather than getting
:21:29. > :21:32.to grips with what needs to be done to rescue the euro. People have
:21:33. > :21:36.said very clearly that they haven't gone far enough. Instead, they were
:21:36. > :21:40.back to their usual routine of trying to institutionalise changes
:21:40. > :21:44.to the Treaties. That was the wrong approach. David Cameron was right
:21:44. > :21:48.to say no, the UK will not agree to that. It was very clear that there
:21:48. > :21:51.is support for that. We certainly support him as was demonstrated in
:21:51. > :21:56.the House of Commons the other day when our motion was passed by a
:21:56. > :22:00.clear majority. The problem with what David Cameron did at Brussels
:22:00. > :22:05.was he turned turtle on what he said was his priority. He and
:22:05. > :22:08.George Osborne have been saying for months that there needed to be big
:22:08. > :22:12.firepower to protect the eurozone. When the eurozone was finally
:22:12. > :22:17.making moves to try to provide the cover that is needed, they moved in
:22:17. > :22:20.to say no, you can't actual I will have that, you can't do that within
:22:20. > :22:23.the existing treaty, even though he had previously said the answer
:22:23. > :22:26.could be found within the existing treaty. He then said there is no
:22:26. > :22:30.new treaty and said what you have to do is create a new agreement, a
:22:30. > :22:34.new framework outside of all that. The problem with that is, if you
:22:34. > :22:38.have a completely novel unconventional collection of 26
:22:38. > :22:45.countries and David Cameron saying, "You can't meet inside European
:22:45. > :22:52.Commission buildings" - he is like that judge on Strictly Come Dancing
:22:52. > :22:55.- "That is an illegal lift!" He was saying, "You can't use EU lawyers,
:22:55. > :23:00.EU translaters in these negotiations." The markets are
:23:00. > :23:03.going to say if this isn't using the EU institutions, what certainty
:23:03. > :23:07.is there, what reliability is there in this? He has made it much harder
:23:07. > :23:11.to get an outcome that solves the eurozone problem and then also
:23:11. > :23:14.helps to solve the problem that is hurting the sterling zone as well.
:23:14. > :23:18.The more difficulty that the eurozone is in, the more difficulty
:23:18. > :23:23.the sterling zone is in. That affects jobs, services, families
:23:23. > :23:28.and our budget. As Northern Ireland is the only place that has a land
:23:28. > :23:33.border with the eurozone, it is of major significance to us, isn't it?
:23:33. > :23:36.Yes. What lies fundamentally at the root of this debate is this: The
:23:36. > :23:39.people of the United Kingdom and a lot of people on both sides of the
:23:39. > :23:43.House of Commons, even though some of them may not see it openly,
:23:43. > :23:45.believe now that the time has come for a fundamental realignment of
:23:46. > :23:50.the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.
:23:50. > :23:55.That is what lies at the heart of this. People have said, "We are fed
:23:55. > :23:59.up with the issue of continual diktat from Brussels" and they want
:23:59. > :24:02.the sovereignty of the United Kingdom returned. The little
:24:02. > :24:05.Europeanists who want to concentrate the attention on
:24:05. > :24:10.creating a federal Europe against the wishes of the United Kingdom
:24:10. > :24:17.and people from the rest of Europe, even the Germans are saying that
:24:17. > :24:21.they are not happy... Is this not central to this whole thing, that
:24:22. > :24:25.European political unity is, some would say, an inevitable result of
:24:25. > :24:29.economic unity and that therefore it is all pushing towards that
:24:29. > :24:34.ultimate goal? You have the bizarre situation where it is people like
:24:34. > :24:43.David Cameron and George Osborne who have been calling for tighter
:24:43. > :24:46.fiscal union within the eurozone. Yes. Now, the fact is, we have a
:24:46. > :24:52.situation where there is a serious economic problem. There's plenty of
:24:52. > :24:55.time for all the political arguments about between Euro-
:24:55. > :25:00.sceptics and euro enthusiasts. There is a serious situation that
:25:00. > :25:05.is affecting every economy in Europe now and the wider world. It
:25:05. > :25:10.needs to be addressed and addressed urgently and effectively. With
:25:10. > :25:14.regards... Get on with it then, Mark! There won't be a new treaty
:25:14. > :25:18.at 27, even though he told the House of Commons he wanted a treaty
:25:18. > :25:24.at 27. He has said you have to create some new inter-governmental
:25:24. > :25:28.agreement at 26. That in itself is potentially... All of the problem
:25:28. > :25:32.could be solved if the Germans and the French could agree what
:25:32. > :25:36.everybody says needs to be done - the Americans and everybody else -
:25:36. > :25:40.you have to have an underwriting of the European debt by Europe as a
:25:40. > :25:43.whole. What does that mean? The Germans need to underwrite it.
:25:43. > :25:49.Until they do that, you don't need all this institutional nonsense.
:25:49. > :25:54.That is what needs to happen. is why Merkel will not be able to
:25:54. > :25:58.sell this deal - she will have to say this isn't an EU deal. This is
:25:59. > :26:02.a strange deal at 26. It is an EU deal but it is not an EU deal. It
:26:02. > :26:06.is not very convincing. It will be open to lots of legal arguments.
:26:06. > :26:15.David Cameron has said he would be in to blow the whistle on anything
:26:15. > :26:20.that appeared to be... All of this... All of this technical
:26:20. > :26:29.jargon, what matters is this: If the Germans and French agreed to
:26:29. > :26:31.underwrite the debt through the European Central Bank, or through
:26:31. > :26:36.eurobonds, the crisis would be over. That can't happen because the
:26:36. > :26:39.German people won't why it? That's the fact. The question is, how does
:26:39. > :26:43.the eurozone continue to exist? If they want take the actions, those
:26:43. > :26:47.who created the euro, to underwrite it, that is a matter for them. It
:26:47. > :26:53.will impact on us. That is the unfortunate part about this
:26:53. > :26:59.politically-driven issue. You are right, Mark, to say that the euro
:26:59. > :27:02.was a political project. That is why I'm glad our party said it was
:27:02. > :27:07.wrong to join the euro. Where would we be now if we had followed the
:27:07. > :27:11.advice of the Labour Party? David Cameron could turn out to be
:27:11. > :27:14.something... He was right in the decision that he took. If it all
:27:14. > :27:19.collapses, David Cameron will be seen to have taken the right
:27:19. > :27:22.decision, won't he? People might well say that. The problem is, he
:27:22. > :27:28.has created the situation where it is more likely to collapse. He has
:27:28. > :27:32.made it more difficult to make sure there is a strong answer to the
:27:32. > :27:37.eurozone crisis and something credible that can be shown tomorrow.
:27:37. > :27:40.A very quick question: A junior minister has said the Republic
:27:40. > :27:45.shouldn't be worried about reverting to clinging on to the
:27:46. > :27:49.UK's coat tails when it comes to Europe. Is that right? I think the
:27:50. > :27:57.Republic have to make sure they work well with all partners. The UK
:27:57. > :28:02.has a very good partner for the Republic. The Republic is a good
:28:02. > :28:10.ally. The problem is, David Cameron has created a situation where he
:28:10. > :28:14.hasn't got the benefit of that good practical access with the Republic.
:28:14. > :28:18.All right. We must leave it there. Thank you both very much.
:28:18. > :28:21.And that's where we must leave it, not just for this week but for this
:28:21. > :28:24.year, as Hearts and Minds joins the politicians, not literally of
:28:24. > :28:27.course, for the Christmas break. I wish you all a happy and peaceful
:28:27. > :28:37.holiday season, and we look forward to seeing you all in 2012. Where
:28:37. > :28:39.
:28:39. > :28:43.are the years going? Goodbye. did you get your licence? Some
:28:43. > :28:47.carry-on this week. Republicans got excited when they saw the headlines.
:28:47. > :28:55.It was only David Cameron in Europe. Britain is still going to pay for
:28:55. > :28:59.us. I think we should reduce corporation tax. It will stimulate
:28:59. > :29:05.growth, attract investment. David Attenborough got in trouble for
:29:05. > :29:09.faking some of Frozen Planet. That is typical of the BBC. Remember,