:00:29. > :00:32.Welcome to the programme. This week, Tom Elliott prepares to it --
:00:32. > :00:38.prepares for his second party conference as UUP leader.
:00:38. > :00:43.From Wolverhampton to Belfast, we'd borrow back the art of the Troubles.
:00:43. > :00:46.The cut-and-thrust, or lack of it, in the Assembly debates. What would
:00:46. > :00:54.Socrates make it? And the University brain drain,
:00:54. > :00:58.The Ulster Unionists gather for their annual conference this
:00:58. > :01:02.weekend, cheerleading in chief is Party leader Tom Elliott, who joins
:01:02. > :01:07.me now. It has not been a hugely successful years since your last
:01:07. > :01:11.conference. You lost ground and the Assembly elections, you lost a
:01:11. > :01:14.minister, the electorate did not want to hear what you say. Wed unit
:01:14. > :01:18.optimism? A we need to put the history in
:01:18. > :01:26.some perspective. If you look at the Assembly elections, we went out
:01:26. > :01:30.with 16 members and we came back with 16. But in 2007 you had a team.
:01:30. > :01:35.Yes, but we went down to 16 and kept them. I would have liked to
:01:36. > :01:39.have done better, but the fact is we had a significant building block.
:01:39. > :01:43.I was only in place a few months before the elections. We have a
:01:43. > :01:47.significant building block, and we have brought forward great policies.
:01:47. > :01:51.The Ulster Unionist policy were the first to bring out many things,
:01:51. > :01:57.long before the Northern Ireland Executive did. So we want to be
:01:57. > :02:01.leaders, and we only have one executive place, but they must look
:02:01. > :02:04.about -- look at what we have done already. We have stopped town-
:02:04. > :02:12.centre car parking charges that were then to be brought in by Sinn
:02:12. > :02:19.Fein. Don't forget, at the last minister could not put money aside
:02:19. > :02:24.for the Londonderry to Colraine rail link. Hopefully that will be a
:02:24. > :02:27.huge benefit. You talk in the party political
:02:27. > :02:31.broadcasts about a vision for Northern Ireland led by the UUP.
:02:32. > :02:36.The trouble is, no one really knows what that is.
:02:36. > :02:39.We have been quite clear. Our vision is to ensure we have a
:02:39. > :02:42.society for everyone in Northern Ireland, to ensure we have a
:02:42. > :02:47.society that can respect each other's traditions and views and
:02:47. > :02:51.values, and live together. Not to live separately, live together and
:02:51. > :02:56.peacefully together. That is television, but we need policies to
:02:56. > :03:00.bring that about. We would like to see a single educational authority
:03:00. > :03:05.that does not have the individual sectors within education, we can
:03:05. > :03:10.bring them all together and work together. That is only a sample.
:03:10. > :03:17.You talk about wanting to having a Unionist party that is defined by
:03:17. > :03:21.pluralism and equality. The DUP a health minister refused to lift the
:03:21. > :03:25.ban on homosexuals blood transfusions in Northern Ireland.
:03:25. > :03:29.One of your MPs said that was irrational prejudice. Who was
:03:29. > :03:34.right? We need to look at experience. We
:03:35. > :03:39.cannot trust to know what is happening in the rest of the UK,
:03:39. > :03:43.and I would have thought that the tests that you're undergoing, I am
:03:43. > :03:46.a blood donor, and wants to give those tests, you can find it there
:03:46. > :03:50.is anything in the blood which cannot be used for other people. So
:03:50. > :03:56.I do not see any reason that you cannot use that blood, for
:03:56. > :04:01.providing it has been tested before and.
:04:01. > :04:06.To argue Assembly members went to a recent launch by the culture
:04:06. > :04:15.minister to depoliticise Irish and to make people try to be fluent in
:04:15. > :04:20.Irish by 2015. You did not go. Would you go?'s I feel the Irish
:04:20. > :04:25.language has been politicised. I think it is wrong that the Sinn
:04:25. > :04:29.Fein leadership are leading this. There is no harm in our leaders
:04:29. > :04:34.going in to see what is happening to see if there is any merit in it.
:04:34. > :04:38.But I must say, in all probability, how will you depoliticise it if
:04:38. > :04:42.political leaders are pushing it? Pushing learned -- presumably
:04:42. > :04:45.because they will introduce the initiatives. The you can't have it
:04:45. > :04:51.every way. If we want to depoliticise it, they
:04:51. > :04:55.should take a back seat on it. They are tried to press their policy on
:04:55. > :05:01.everyone else, and that is not the right thing to do.
:05:01. > :05:04.Would you like to learn Irish? I do not know, because it is not
:05:04. > :05:09.known throughout the world. I would prefer to be fluent in French or
:05:09. > :05:14.German. You belong to an organisation which
:05:14. > :05:18.was to discipline you for abandoning -- attending a funeral a
:05:18. > :05:24.been murdered Catholic police officer. Do you think is right?
:05:24. > :05:27.I hope the outcome will be that there is no case to answer for me.
:05:27. > :05:36.A murder police officer who went to the funeral of a murder police
:05:36. > :05:40.officer, that is the situation. there is an investigation. Is that
:05:41. > :05:45.erasable thing to do? You want plurality and equality.
:05:45. > :05:51.You must put it in context. The Orange Order have a right to
:05:51. > :05:54.investigate, they have a right to their internal affairs. They have a
:05:54. > :05:58.right to their internal mechanisms, but let's not forget how this came
:05:58. > :06:03.about. It came about because people in this society murdered a police
:06:03. > :06:07.officer. I feel I was right to support that family and the
:06:07. > :06:12.community, I was right to support law and order, and I will not
:06:12. > :06:15.apologise for that. I will not give in to those people who are
:06:15. > :06:20.determined to actually bring havoc and murder people out in our
:06:20. > :06:24.society. You said that you were not a
:06:24. > :06:27.political dinosaur. Some people say this is the very essence of being a
:06:27. > :06:31.dinosaur, in terms of an organisation. Do you think that
:06:31. > :06:36.should do something about that will?
:06:36. > :06:42.I think we will have no case to answer. That is not the question.
:06:42. > :06:46.No, but I think this will clarify the situation. You think it will
:06:46. > :06:53.all change? For I think you'll have clarity of the Rules. For I am not
:06:53. > :06:56.sure what that means. If I think it will clarify it. We talked about
:06:56. > :07:00.the Assembly elections, in the bra up to those elections, there was a
:07:00. > :07:06.lot of talk about the cough up at Stormont between the DUP and Sinn
:07:06. > :07:10.Fein. The electorate did not listen. It seems language has changed in
:07:10. > :07:14.the months after the election. Dear except that the electorate did not
:07:14. > :07:23.want to hear you wintering any more, and actually quite liked the way it
:07:23. > :07:27.is run? -- whingeing any more. There are more and more people
:07:27. > :07:33.every election who won not voting, which is a worrying development.
:07:33. > :07:36.But I think what a lot of people voted for was to make sure that the
:07:36. > :07:39.First Minister stayed the shame -- stay the same, and they were not
:07:39. > :07:45.supporting the approach that many believed was there, they were
:07:45. > :07:49.voting to keep the other side out of government. We can't be sure.
:07:49. > :07:52.You cannot say with any certainty that that is true. You could
:07:52. > :08:00.equally say they voted for the other parties because they did not
:08:00. > :08:03.like the whingeing on of the UUP. Are things have been quick enough?
:08:03. > :08:08.I Say No. For I think things are not progressing quick enough. The
:08:08. > :08:12.vast majority of the public believe that. Many of the public believe
:08:12. > :08:16.they are being disenfranchised because things are progressing not
:08:16. > :08:18.quickly enough, especially in the economic climate where there are
:08:18. > :08:22.job losses and economic difficulties. If people just want
:08:22. > :08:26.to see things moving quickly. We suggested back before March that
:08:26. > :08:29.there should be a programme for government before the budget was
:08:29. > :08:33.set. Only now are we getting a draft. It is quite clear that
:08:33. > :08:36.things are not happening quickly enough.
:08:36. > :08:40.You said it was important that the Assembly is seen to be working
:08:40. > :08:44.together, that it is not just enough to have seen to have
:08:44. > :08:49.survived the first recession. What must the Assembly achieve in his
:08:49. > :08:53.coming session? And how would you help achieve it?
:08:53. > :08:58.We must achieve things that will make a difference to the people,
:08:58. > :09:02.particularly in education. We must ensure we break this deadlock
:09:02. > :09:07.imposed primary education, we get over the transfer problem, we get a
:09:07. > :09:12.big problem whereby some children... There is no sign of it. There is no
:09:12. > :09:19.sign of evangelism. You have submitted papers, but there is no
:09:19. > :09:24.sight of a resolution. I am telling you what I believe we should do. We
:09:24. > :09:27.also have a situation in education whereby young children leave school
:09:27. > :09:33.without basic qualifications in reading and writing. That has got
:09:33. > :09:38.UN. We have got to ensure we have a single educational authority, we do
:09:38. > :09:43.not need individual authorities costing the community a fortune. We
:09:43. > :09:46.must bring opportunities to businesses, and we differ on the
:09:46. > :09:50.corporation tax issue, but we must bring those types of opportunities
:09:51. > :09:55.to society here to allow businesses to perform. Those are the things we
:09:55. > :10:03.need to do. How security leadership? You said
:10:03. > :10:06.you wanted a party with no factions and cliques. We hear rumours that
:10:07. > :10:11.there are people who would like to see you fond out to Europe, and
:10:11. > :10:15.still bring in a younger figurehead. Or can you say about that?
:10:15. > :10:20.You are hearing things I am not. There is nobody knocking on my door
:10:20. > :10:26.to try and remove May. I have always said, if the party do not
:10:26. > :10:32.want a, I will not be their leader, libel Stepaside. I will not fight
:10:32. > :10:37.that issue. But the party do want a, I have a 70% mandate. People have
:10:37. > :10:47.got behind me. Are there is nobody knocking on my door.
:10:47. > :10:49.
:10:49. > :10:53.It says something about the quality of debate at Stormont that the only
:10:54. > :10:58.way it is halfway gripping is when there is a row. Recently, the
:10:58. > :11:00.SDLP's Dominic Bradley was meandering piece lay -- peace plea
:11:00. > :11:05.for a question on Irish when the Deputy Speaker intervened and asked
:11:05. > :11:09.him to get on with the question and drizzly to -- translated. When he
:11:10. > :11:13.protested, he was told to sit down. It was very heavy handed and
:11:14. > :11:17.embarrassing to watch. Further problems ensued, and it all ended
:11:17. > :11:22.up with the Speaker temporarily withdrawing his speaking rights for
:11:22. > :11:27.what he called his vicious assault. The vicious assault? That is the
:11:27. > :11:35.kind of language you use when bones are broken, not operate -- a very
:11:35. > :11:40.minor verbal stuff will. - Chris guffaw. The EC is to be adopting a
:11:40. > :11:45.coat that he should adopt a pompous tone at all times, inventing his
:11:45. > :11:51.fury on anything approaching dissent. It was the same last month
:11:51. > :11:53.when William Hay silence Jim Allister for a week after he asked
:11:53. > :12:00.Peter Robinson what he had said to me at Martin McGuinness about
:12:00. > :12:03.finding a new job. Contrast the stodgy, moribund themes at the Nora
:12:03. > :12:08.but that from Northern Ireland Assembly with the lively culture of
:12:08. > :12:13.debate at Westminster. The atmosphere in the Commons is loud
:12:13. > :12:17.and rumbustious and theatrical. The yet a similarly full-throated
:12:17. > :12:20.debate rarely gets going in the Assembly, because it is so tightly
:12:20. > :12:24.circumscribed. There appears to be a fear that things would get out of
:12:24. > :12:28.hand. Of course, there is always going to be a need for structure
:12:28. > :12:33.and protocol, but it is a sign of a mature, confident democracy that
:12:33. > :12:37.the Speaker had us is a flexible, even-handed way. Back in 2000, when
:12:37. > :12:39.David Trimble said that Sinn Fein members needed to be house-trained
:12:39. > :12:43.the Cup before they could be proper Democrats, there was a huge outcry
:12:43. > :12:48.at his choice of words. That phrase made a return to the Assembly just
:12:48. > :12:53.last week, when Peter Robinson said that he hoped Jim Allister was now
:12:53. > :12:56.house-trained. Strangely enough, the Speaker did not pull the First
:12:56. > :13:00.Minister are for that remark. It gives the impression there is one
:13:00. > :13:08.rule for the Sinn Fein and DUP Robin blog and another for everyone
:13:08. > :13:13.else. -- ruling bloc. Jim Allister performs an important that were
:13:13. > :13:17.important role in the Assembly. He asks annoying questions. I think of
:13:17. > :13:21.him as a kind of latter-day Socrates, only more angry and
:13:21. > :13:26.without a beard. The Athenian philosopher said his poll setting
:13:26. > :13:30.was like a large horse, it is not trying to be lazy, but he was the
:13:30. > :13:35.big stinging fly it needing to get it going. I will never cease to
:13:35. > :13:40.settle here, there or everywhere, until I have proved everyone of you
:13:41. > :13:48.wrong. Jim is our own parliamentary wasp. Sadly, it will take a swarm
:13:48. > :13:52.to change the can pop -- culture of complacency at Stormont.
:13:52. > :13:55.The only permanent exhibition of the art that came out of the
:13:56. > :14:00.Troubles is found in Wolverhampton. For the next couple of months, you
:14:00. > :14:03.will be able to see some of that in Belfast, including one
:14:03. > :14:13.controversial piece that brought people onto the streets in protest
:14:13. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:20.in the 1970s. But will we ever have More than 30 years after being
:14:20. > :14:28.banned in Northern Ireland, this picture hangs on the warmth of a
:14:28. > :14:33.gallery in Belfast for all to see. -- the wall. It was due to be
:14:33. > :14:39.exhibited in 1978, but the museum Porter's refused to hang it.
:14:39. > :14:42.We have taken the line here that there are some things that are
:14:42. > :14:48.offensive, and we did not want to go ahead with it. In this
:14:48. > :14:52.particular case, it is so obscene that we had to take a stand.
:14:52. > :14:56.The authorities backed them up, and there were demonstrations.
:14:56. > :15:01.Things like this would never happen in England.
:15:01. > :15:06.Today, the creator, is a renowned artist, a professor of art in
:15:06. > :15:16.California. But he remembers the 1970s, when he wanted to highlight
:15:16. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:26.what he saw as the erosion of civil The anger that he must have felt
:15:26. > :15:32.was how I felt about Bloody Sunday. I was angry about introduction of
:15:32. > :15:39.various legislation because of the situation with Northern Ireland
:15:39. > :15:44.which was eroding civil liberties in the UK. It was not just English
:15:44. > :15:52.artists experiencing censorship in Northern Ireland. On one occasion I
:15:52. > :15:56.had a couple of paintings removed from the gallery. Because the
:15:56. > :16:03.customer was a local politician that objected to the content of a
:16:03. > :16:06.couple of my paintings. I was young and green at the time and accepted
:16:06. > :16:14.the fact that they were taken out of the exhibition instead of being
:16:14. > :16:21.angry. This artist lives in North Belfast. I remember I was painting
:16:21. > :16:30.a landscape and at the same time I was hearing gunshots literally from
:16:30. > :16:34.across the road. I thought, this is madness. I am doing painting of
:16:34. > :16:38.landscapes when this madness is going on. This exhibition is in
:16:38. > :16:42.Belfast until December but many of the art works inspired by the
:16:42. > :16:49.conflict are not in Northern Ireland and their is a d one place
:16:49. > :16:55.to see those that are still hair. This is a curator's Museum free to
:16:55. > :17:00.collect work that might be viewed as contentious. The engaged and
:17:00. > :17:07.inspiring work which reflected the horror of war and the piece of work
:17:07. > :17:13.went to other places. This a functions I think in the absence of
:17:13. > :17:20.a permanent collection on public display of this type of work. This
:17:20. > :17:27.is the 8th in the series. We have been doing this in a boy did. It is
:17:27. > :17:33.not that we do not have the works. -- vacuum. But it is really
:17:33. > :17:38.essential. It is an issue the Arts Council has tried to address by
:17:38. > :17:47.building a digital archive of political art. I think institutions
:17:47. > :17:53.did feel repressed and possibly censored. Obviously being the Arts
:17:53. > :17:59.Council, I think we had a little bit more liberty. Certainly, we did
:17:59. > :18:09.collect some work of a political nature of crew art collections. But
:18:09. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:15.maybe not as much as we could have done. -- through art collections.
:18:15. > :18:19.We ask the Culture Minister for her opinion. She said she was committed
:18:19. > :18:22.to continuing to support the arts to continuing to support the arts
:18:22. > :18:26.and that they could provide people with a sense of history and place,
:18:26. > :18:29.bring communities together and understand the past but she did not
:18:29. > :18:33.understand the past but she did not want to be interviewed. But we
:18:33. > :18:41.cannot reveal the political art work collected by the Arts Council
:18:41. > :18:45.with public money is being gifted to the Ulster Museum. It is about
:18:45. > :18:55.works so that are directly relevant to be trouble. The majority are
:18:55. > :19:01.from Northern Irish artists. All of these artists would be renowned for
:19:01. > :19:04.their response to the Troubles in different ways. The newly
:19:04. > :19:07.refurbished Ulster Museum has an exhibition already about the
:19:07. > :19:13.Troubles but does that mean Northern Ireland can finally have
:19:13. > :19:18.its own permanent collection of political art? We are certainly
:19:18. > :19:23.still in the process of the handover. We have not acquired the
:19:23. > :19:28.works in the collection yet. We are still in that process and I could
:19:28. > :19:32.not give you a definite timescale but we are looking for future
:19:32. > :19:38.programming about how we integrate not just a collection here at the
:19:38. > :19:47.Museum but how we can have the collection as an outrage collection
:19:47. > :19:51.as well. Then it can go out to other places as well. Chances to
:19:51. > :19:57.see political art like this remain occasional but there is not any
:19:57. > :20:03.doubt that anger at previous censorship has affected the
:20:03. > :20:11.establishment. Let people see it and it they are going to be gifted
:20:11. > :20:15.to the museum, that is a disgrace. They are treating Northern Ireland
:20:15. > :20:19.like it is full of adults that do not need to be told what to think.
:20:19. > :20:29.They can come and see it and it stayed like it or do not like it
:20:29. > :20:37.
:20:37. > :20:42.Our universities affected by... We have got figures showing
:20:42. > :20:47.Protestants are outnumbered by Catholics, particularly at Ulster
:20:47. > :20:53.and adds the McGee campers, just 20 % are Protestant. But is this the
:20:53. > :20:57.true picture? The University of Ulster says it is a sad reflection
:20:57. > :21:04.that the Community should be a matter for public comment. Why is
:21:04. > :21:09.it important? The legislation is for a reason and as long as it
:21:09. > :21:13.makes the provision that the entitlement is there, then it's the
:21:13. > :21:17.monitoring showed the rebels to what it does we would have an
:21:17. > :21:23.outcry and nobody would suggest it was sectarian or inappropriate to
:21:23. > :21:29.have this information to. But we have got an alarming picture with
:21:29. > :21:35.universities in general. Ulster University in particular. Maybe
:21:35. > :21:41.somebody can understand the Midi situation because of all of that.
:21:41. > :21:48.But nobody can say that about the other campers. The startling
:21:48. > :21:55.figures for me were that it was almost too-one in Catholic against
:21:55. > :22:02.Protestant. Are you saying it is sectarian, the University? It has
:22:02. > :22:08.to address a problem. It up Disley is not recruiting adequately from
:22:08. > :22:13.the control sector. -- it is obviously not recruiting. It is
:22:13. > :22:21.doing very well in attracting Republic of Ireland students but
:22:21. > :22:25.other universities are virtually... Just five times more and they are
:22:25. > :22:33.doing very well with the Republic of Ireland but they are not doing
:22:33. > :22:37.very well elsewhere. Why is that? We need to address that. You are
:22:37. > :22:47.not here to talk about the University of Ulster but is there
:22:47. > :22:50.
:22:50. > :22:57.an issue here? Is only monitors people stay in... Much of the
:22:57. > :23:04.information is missing. We have got an important point. The information
:23:04. > :23:07.is about the community and the Catholic community. The majority of
:23:07. > :23:13.students at have not studied religion went to what we call
:23:13. > :23:18.Protestant schools. After that we will find that the share is greater
:23:18. > :23:23.than the information presented. The other issue is that we take
:23:23. > :23:29.students with regard to the quality of the grades. The university
:23:29. > :23:34.admissions service will stop that is a law and --. That is a law and
:23:34. > :23:38.a directed. When they have the qualifications and they are better
:23:38. > :23:44.than others they must have a place. It is more complicated than what
:23:44. > :23:48.has been said. When we checked this information, we are on a par with
:23:48. > :23:52.the religious turnover. It is complicated because not enough
:23:52. > :24:01.children are coming out of the controlled Protestant sector with
:24:01. > :24:11.qualifications. That is the problem. Not recruitment? He has got to
:24:11. > :24:12.
:24:12. > :24:17.spend to get to this point. -- have political spinning. That is a false
:24:17. > :24:22.premise, what he has said. The figures speak for themselves. Back
:24:22. > :24:28.in 2008, the committee, before I was part of the committee, we look
:24:28. > :24:33.at an aspect of this. A research students from Northern Ireland
:24:34. > :24:37.universities. 47 % of Catholic students at the University said at
:24:37. > :24:41.their school they had been engaged with by one or other of the
:24:41. > :24:48.universities. 20 % of the Protestant students said they were
:24:48. > :24:52.engaged by the local universities. They have got a recruitment deficit.
:24:52. > :24:58.I am saying to Ulster that they must face up to that and examine
:24:58. > :25:08.why they have got that deficit. Have we got other actors? Have we
:25:08. > :25:08.
:25:08. > :25:14.got a prevalence of other problems? -- other factors? But we have got
:25:14. > :25:18.some evidence that Protestant students elsewhere in the UK did
:25:18. > :25:24.not report that they have got a barrier studying here. They have
:25:24. > :25:30.got reasons for not studying in Northern Ireland. If we look at the
:25:30. > :25:35.survey, we have got just 90 more Catholics than Protestants. We have
:25:35. > :25:42.got an idea of an exodus. That people are being forced to study
:25:42. > :25:48.elsewhere. We have got a parity between the two. One thing is that
:25:48. > :25:53.they Mudgley come from -- mostly come from affluent backgrounds.
:25:53. > :25:58.People go outside and elsewhere. It is very important to make the point
:25:58. > :26:03.that we have got rules and regulations. At Queen's University,
:26:03. > :26:07.I will challenge what has been said. We have got significant out reach.
:26:08. > :26:13.We are brought people to the university had gone into schools
:26:13. > :26:18.that we do not usually recruit from. We are spending �10 million per
:26:18. > :26:24.year on bursaries and 42 % of students gain a bursaries. We are
:26:24. > :26:30.very active and aware of the situation. We have talked about the
:26:30. > :26:35.failure of the young people in the controlled sector. We are the
:26:35. > :26:42.people promoting and encouraging... Maybe that is why the Queen's
:26:42. > :26:47.figures are better than Ulster's. But queens used to have a definite
:26:47. > :26:54.problem in the days when the student union where Gaelic in
:26:54. > :27:04.presentation and steel parties stepped in... -- and people stepped
:27:04. > :27:04.
:27:04. > :27:10.in. I have seen figures that Cath legs that have not -- Catholics but
:27:10. > :27:20.have not come from grammar schools are twice as likely as others. Is
:27:20. > :27:25.that likely? That is where I agree entirely with Peter. One problem is
:27:25. > :27:28.a failure at out but particularly from the Protestant working class.
:27:28. > :27:34.They are not getting the qualifications and they cannot be
:27:34. > :27:37.taught. This has not been addressed and it must be addressed. It these
:27:38. > :27:44.figures contribute to that it is another positive reason why they
:27:44. > :27:53.should be public. I want upload their ability from both communities
:27:53. > :28:00.will stop -- upward mobility. about us have we got on that
:28:00. > :28:05.community? We have got to look at the people that have exposed desert.
:28:05. > :28:09.We are the researchers constantly talking about the lack of
:28:09. > :28:18.representation to gain qualifications. We have looked at
:28:18. > :28:25.32 % of people getting five GCSEs. Half as many in the Catholic sector
:28:25. > :28:31.got a five GCSEs. We are trying to solve the problem. What can the
:28:31. > :28:37.Assembly do about this? We have looked at this under the leadership
:28:37. > :28:41.of Sinn Fein but they have done nothing. But what can be done?