:00:45. > :00:49.Hello, and welcome to the programme. That does deep title sequence
:00:49. > :00:52.introduced the first Hearts And Minds in 1986. -- 1986. Tonight is
:00:52. > :00:58.the last edition of the programme, and we will indulge ourselves with
:00:58. > :01:03.a look back at over 16 years of intellectual debate. Let them go
:01:03. > :01:07.and boil their heads. So, let's look forward with our final panel
:01:08. > :01:10.of guests. We asked Sinn Fein to take part in the final discussion
:01:10. > :01:16.but then withdrew their interviewees.
:01:16. > :01:20.Nigel Dodds, there are allegations flying around at the moment of Ward
:01:20. > :01:26.rigging, discrimination in employment and in your own minister
:01:26. > :01:29.that term gerrymandering has reared its head again, in opening up new
:01:29. > :01:34.housing developments to loyalist areas that were not initially
:01:34. > :01:38.involved. Have we moved forward? I think over 16 years we have moved
:01:38. > :01:42.considerably far reform would over where Northern Ireland used to be.
:01:42. > :01:47.I remember in these programmes way back them do discussion was about
:01:48. > :01:53.the violence and killings and the decommission ing process and people
:01:53. > :01:58.supporting this police and all that. -- the police. When you consider
:01:58. > :02:01.the progress it is incredible. is it enough? Sometimes it feels
:02:01. > :02:06.like back to the future. These words like discrimination and
:02:06. > :02:10.gerrymandering are still around. I don't believe that we have gone
:02:10. > :02:14.back. I think the one thing we are committed to as a party and have
:02:14. > :02:21.been committed throughout is that everyone must be equally subject to
:02:21. > :02:27.the law and equally subject to the law. We had this duality where
:02:27. > :02:31.people could commit themselves to the democratic process but still be
:02:31. > :02:36.tied to buy list. We made a commitment as the DUP that that
:02:36. > :02:40.would not happen. It is not easy to have a coalition Government. As we
:02:40. > :02:44.have seen in London and in Scotland and Wales and elsewhere. The fact
:02:44. > :02:47.of the matter is, we are moving forward as a society in the
:02:47. > :02:53.political process. We will have to confront the issues that we face.
:02:53. > :02:57.For instant, we had a four Party agreement in Belfast, and I was
:02:57. > :03:00.party to that. That was an incredible step forward, to
:03:00. > :03:08.actually get an agreement on the shared space in one of the most
:03:08. > :03:12.contentious areas of north Belfast. Your party was at the first
:03:12. > :03:16.photocall, now they are talking about Colin indoor lawyers.
:03:16. > :03:20.We will, Nigel said about shared space and about housing on the
:03:21. > :03:25.basis of objective need, and that is not what we have seen in terms
:03:25. > :03:30.of the plans for the 27 acres site. It seems to me from glancing at it
:03:30. > :03:35.there are more places for car parking but there are homes for the
:03:35. > :03:40.2,000 people desperately in need of a home. We have seen how the
:03:40. > :03:45.minister, Nelson McCausland, we have learned how he has changed the
:03:45. > :03:52.housing plans for parts of Belfast. That is a worry in itself. We still
:03:52. > :03:57.have no agreement around assured education should look. We have
:03:57. > :04:01.heard plenty of warm words, but very little action. -- shared
:04:01. > :04:07.education. We have heard about pigs flying
:04:07. > :04:12.before power sharing, vote-rigging in Craigavon, where is the
:04:12. > :04:16.progress? We will, I think that overall the
:04:16. > :04:21.progress is in a sticky patch at the moment. -- well, I think. I
:04:21. > :04:26.think we will move forward. There is obviously tensions in certain
:04:26. > :04:29.areas, but there is a future for Northern Ireland, it is a shared
:04:29. > :04:34.future. I think the reality will come through that and I'd agree
:04:34. > :04:39.with Nigel that when we look back we have made considerable progress.
:04:39. > :04:43.I think there is more to do. There is a lot of black -- back-slapping
:04:43. > :04:47.in that, haven't we done well? A lot of people think it is stark and
:04:47. > :04:53.not going anywhere very fast. Well, I think that sometimes the
:04:53. > :04:58.people do think -- do need to be reminded that we have come a long
:04:58. > :05:02.way. People tend to dismiss the past, but it was not easy and
:05:02. > :05:08.people have done a good job. If it was easy we would have done it by
:05:08. > :05:13.now. There is real progress, there is more progress to be made that
:05:13. > :05:17.will require political leadership. What do you do with people who are
:05:17. > :05:21.seeing pigs will fly before the sheer power? What do you do in
:05:21. > :05:27.places where one party tops the poll but does not get the position
:05:27. > :05:32.because the other parties conspire against them? Well, if everything
:05:32. > :05:37.was homogeneous, if everything happened at coding to plan, --
:05:37. > :05:41.according to plan, life would be pretty boring. We have to realise,
:05:41. > :05:44.individually, this is the way forward. My party will take action
:05:44. > :05:49.against people who do not understand the political reality.
:05:49. > :05:52.We have done that with people in the past, we will do it again. You
:05:52. > :05:59.have to move forward and accept this is the political reality,
:05:59. > :06:09.there is no alternative. Let me just to bring in an up low,
:06:09. > :06:10.
:06:10. > :06:17.because your party has left discussions about the shared future.
:06:17. > :06:20.-- Anna Lo. By a, we don't see it working, introducing an acceptable
:06:20. > :06:23.strategy. Nigel Dodds is saying this, are
:06:24. > :06:28.they just talking out of the side of their mouths?
:06:29. > :06:33.I think there is another issue to this. There is a strategy called
:06:33. > :06:40.the racial equality strategy, which was shelved at the shame time as
:06:40. > :06:43.they shared future. That has not been revised. There has been a
:06:43. > :06:49.vacuum of community relations, not just between the two major
:06:49. > :06:54.communities, but also in bringing other ethnic minority communities
:06:54. > :06:58.to integrate into Northern Ireland. That is something we need to do. We
:06:58. > :07:02.have not been ambitious enough. We're still very much stuck in the
:07:02. > :07:07.orange and green issues. On the ground, I think, particularly young
:07:07. > :07:14.people, they don't particularly want to be associated with either
:07:14. > :07:19.orange or green or nationalists or Unionism? -- or Unionism. They see
:07:19. > :07:23.themselves as Northern Irish. It's use of cohesion 0.2 issues
:07:23. > :07:32.where we need to make more progress. But take another issue like
:07:32. > :07:37.policing and justice. -- issues of cohesion point to issues. There
:07:37. > :07:43.were all sorts of crazies and we cracked and at one. -- all sorts of
:07:43. > :07:47.crisis. Then be solved this arrangement without any crisis,
:07:47. > :07:51.without politicians coming in to solve problems. Politicians in
:07:51. > :07:54.Northern Ireland did that. Yes, there are issues and there that
:07:54. > :07:59.needs to be discussed and taken forward, but everyone said policing
:07:59. > :08:03.and justice could never be solved. Well, it is solved now.
:08:03. > :08:07.The does all very well saying it has solved, but the point is let's
:08:07. > :08:09.not focus relentlessly on negativity. We need some time to
:08:09. > :08:14.celebrate what has been done without being complacent about what
:08:14. > :08:19.needs to be done. Sinn Fein are not here to talk about things, that is
:08:19. > :08:24.their choice, but Conor Murphy stands accused of religious
:08:24. > :08:27.discrimination in appointing jobs when he was at the Department of
:08:27. > :08:32.Regional Development. How serious is that? He denies it, of course,
:08:32. > :08:38.but how serious do you think it is? It is a serious matter, there is no
:08:38. > :08:42.doubt about it. The SDLP stood for equality from its very foundation.
:08:42. > :08:45.Why there has to be attitudinal changes across society, what we saw
:08:45. > :08:50.in the past some changes only came about because there was a
:08:50. > :08:55.legislative framework that insured people had to comply with it, and
:08:55. > :08:58.that has influenced how society has changed substantially over the last
:08:59. > :09:03.30 years. Equality is still something we must work at and be
:09:03. > :09:07.vigilant over, and it does not matter who anyone is within a our
:09:07. > :09:12.society, they all must add here to the same principles. That is what
:09:12. > :09:17.you see and what everyone says, but we still have allegations about
:09:17. > :09:21.discrimination and gerrymandering in housing, Basil McCrae, at the
:09:21. > :09:25.dis -- perception of what you are all saying and what is happening is
:09:25. > :09:29.widely divergent. The no, it is appalling.
:09:29. > :09:33.The issues of Conor Murphy, the discussions of other parts of the
:09:33. > :09:38.Housing Executive, but part of that is a failure to communicate.
:09:38. > :09:42.Actually, when people understand, certainly in north Belfast, there
:09:42. > :09:46.are difficult issues that need to be resolved, and when you look at
:09:46. > :09:51.the complexities of it, perhaps you have to treat the electorate with
:09:52. > :09:56.more respect and explain to them why and how you did things. I think
:09:56. > :09:59.there is a problem in the process, simply turning up for afforded
:09:59. > :10:02.rough and saying no one can answer any questions, I don't think that
:10:02. > :10:07.is right. I have heard comments from the SDLP
:10:07. > :10:13.and the Unionists, both those representatives agreed with the
:10:13. > :10:18.process in substance. The point is, we are trying to make progress...
:10:18. > :10:24.I was Minister for a number of years, and that was a normal
:10:24. > :10:27.procedure. The point is, we are sitting down as elected
:10:27. > :10:32.representatives across parties working on issues. Communities are
:10:32. > :10:35.doing that. I paid tribute to the hundreds of people working on both
:10:35. > :10:40.sides of the community in north Belfast looking forward to the
:10:40. > :10:45.parades. There has been tremendous work done by then a fast parades
:10:45. > :10:50.for them. Going on, silently, quietly, without any TV cameras or
:10:50. > :10:53.anything else. I pay tribute to all that work. When the his achievement
:10:53. > :10:57.and people moving forward that should be celebrated. That is the
:10:57. > :11:02.future and I am committed to that, and brother have -- than having
:11:02. > :11:06.commentary from people who have glanced at issues, let -- my view
:11:06. > :11:14.is let's get on with the substance...
:11:14. > :11:18.Nelson McCausland, after the plan for development is agreed, for
:11:18. > :11:23.those four areas which are nowhere near the top of the list of housing
:11:23. > :11:28.need, then four loyalist areas get new housing.
:11:28. > :11:32.Yes, Alastair Attwood was against that masterplan. In terms of Nelson
:11:32. > :11:36.McCausland, he has made it very clear that housing is also an
:11:36. > :11:44.astute in terms of regeneration. Housing plays a very important part
:11:44. > :11:47.in that. In terms of Protestant areas in loyalist areas that have
:11:47. > :11:52.been berated and run-down we're determined to have those
:11:52. > :11:56.regenerated as we are determined to regenerate the Catholic side. I was
:11:56. > :12:00.in a meeting in the year 2,000 regenerating both sides, but the
:12:00. > :12:04.regeneration is for the loyalist places, and that includes housing,
:12:04. > :12:08.and we will not be in a place where loyalists and Unionists are denied
:12:08. > :12:13.their share of housing. By the criteria, they do not need
:12:13. > :12:17.them as much as other areas. Under the regeneration criteria,
:12:17. > :12:21.housing is part of the regeneration criteria, just as other issues are
:12:21. > :12:24.part of it come and housing cannot and will not be denied to the
:12:24. > :12:31.loyalist and Unionist people of north Belfast.
:12:31. > :12:34.Where is there no more of them and us of Peter Robinson? What is it? -
:12:35. > :12:39.- where is it? One of the things that has gone
:12:39. > :12:43.recently is the lack of interest in politics, whose fault in that?
:12:43. > :12:49.I think we have not been showing enough leadership. We're still
:12:49. > :12:54.stuck in the past. We need to be looking outside of orange and green
:12:54. > :12:59.issues, flags and all the things people are fed up with... And but
:12:59. > :13:03.that is one of the bigger issues. Your party has voted to support the
:13:03. > :13:07.flying of the armed services flag at Belfast City Hall.
:13:07. > :13:16.I think it is politicians who are worked up about it. If you ask
:13:16. > :13:19.people on the ground, people do not the politicians are out of touch
:13:19. > :13:24.with the electorate? Very much so. We have a lot of environmental
:13:24. > :13:29.issues. We have not really looked at them. We're totally behind the
:13:29. > :13:35.rest of the UK in environmental protection and enhancement of our
:13:35. > :13:41.environment. Looking through the environment committee Madine Bill,
:13:41. > :13:46.it is really only a shadow of the Scottish Marine bill. -- Marine
:13:46. > :13:50.bill. Our politicians lost touch with the
:13:50. > :13:54.electorate here or not? -- have politicians.
:13:54. > :13:57.I think they're not brave enough. Some years ago we had big issues
:13:57. > :14:02.and had to wait and communicate with people and I think that
:14:03. > :14:07.happened. Now people are very risk- averse and I don't think that is
:14:07. > :14:10.real leadership. Politicians have to tackle some contentious issues
:14:10. > :14:15.head on and explain to people this is the way forward, and if you
:14:15. > :14:21.agree with me vote for me. What is the first thing you would
:14:21. > :14:25.fix? A education, that has to be fixed.
:14:25. > :14:30.And what sense? We need to have a good resolution
:14:31. > :14:34.to the whole selection debate and we need to know where our children
:14:34. > :14:38.will be and how they will be educated. We also need to know what
:14:38. > :14:41.jobs they will be for young people and had we will look after the old
:14:41. > :14:46.and sick in the future. Get incorporation taxed down and
:14:46. > :14:54.creating jobs for our people. Also reducing the size of the
:14:54. > :15:04.Assembly and bureaucracy in politics.
:15:04. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:15.Ball has not lost, thank you very People put their faith in two
:15:15. > :15:18.assumptions. One was that the politics we have were in the hearts
:15:19. > :15:23.and minds of the people. That the ban was on the streets emerged not
:15:23. > :15:28.just out of those are planted bombs, but of us all and the other
:15:28. > :15:33.assumption was that hearts and minds, without that, there was
:15:33. > :15:37.nothing to talk about. Everything, since then, has changed. The
:15:37. > :15:41.politics of deadlocked give way to the politics of the peace process.
:15:41. > :15:46.But sometimes seemed just as deadlocked as the old system but
:15:46. > :15:52.with fewer people getting killed. But year after year, we saw the
:15:52. > :15:58.politicians in the hearts and minds studio. And how many times that you
:15:58. > :16:05.watch those debates and think they were like a wind-up dolls?
:16:05. > :16:12.Comparing the hearts and minds of people now with those then and it
:16:12. > :16:20.seems to be impossible to recover the intractable ideas of then. That
:16:20. > :16:24.is the old context of the history. With the quarrels of today, you
:16:24. > :16:31.would need excuses for that. Hearts and minds do change. One of the
:16:31. > :16:34.things that was the hardest of the truffle -- the Troubles was just
:16:34. > :16:40.too quickly the suspicion would dissipate, how vicious it had
:16:40. > :16:47.become, how long it would last. Our has respond differently. Far from
:16:47. > :16:51.being emotional about politics, people are cynical. We do sometimes
:16:51. > :16:57.despair of the cliches of the ministers, but it is not there. I
:16:57. > :17:01.believe Sammy Wilson, Alan Foster, Alex Attwood and Stephen Farry,
:17:01. > :17:05.most of them an essentially decent people and those among them who
:17:05. > :17:08.drove the conflict and survived to make politics still must know in
:17:08. > :17:13.their hearts and minds that the world of today is unlike anything
:17:13. > :17:18.be conceived of at the start. The political violence was initiated
:17:18. > :17:21.during the Cold War and for some, even explained by it. Ian Paisley
:17:21. > :17:28.did believe the Catholic church was behind the IRA. That Colonel
:17:28. > :17:32.Gaddafi aren't the IRA and that he hoped Alan make the European Cuba.
:17:32. > :17:36.South Africa armed loyalists in defence of apartheid. That was in
:17:36. > :17:41.the days when again and could go to jail for having sex. So much of
:17:41. > :17:45.that old passion seems stupid. Even recently revealed principles are
:17:45. > :17:50.shaken, like the idea that we're all better off with house prices
:17:50. > :17:55.still going up and up, which makes me wonder how many of their ideas
:17:55. > :18:02.that have currency now will see mad within a generation. Hearts and
:18:02. > :18:08.minds to change, and demonstrably, in the lifetime of this programme.
:18:08. > :18:13.It was all new. We counted them in and we counted them out. We have
:18:13. > :18:17.been through four re ministers, or should accept that is of State,
:18:17. > :18:21.three Yes preservers, for leaders of the Ulster Unionists and the
:18:21. > :18:30.SDLP, two DUP bosses, with only the Sinn Fein president sticking the
:18:30. > :18:34.course since we came on air in 1986. Julia Faulds has been looking back
:18:34. > :18:37.over a turbulent 16.5 years was on good evening it will come to the
:18:37. > :18:43.new forum for debate in this crucial period in Northern
:18:43. > :18:46.Ireland's Mr. It all started in 1996. Before long, the programme
:18:47. > :18:52.was breaking new ground, recording the first studio interview on
:18:52. > :18:59.British television of the Ulster Unionists and Sinn Fein. I told you
:18:59. > :19:03.Sinn Fein is totally committed to this, and what could be more
:19:03. > :19:07.unequivocal than that statement? but the IRA bombing of Canary Wharf
:19:07. > :19:12.changed the agenda and the interview was never broadcast.
:19:12. > :19:19.Whatever the big political story, hearts and minds was on it. They
:19:19. > :19:26.Anything you in the last 20 minutes? You have it in your and.
:19:27. > :19:36.have the feeling that comes in life, I am dying to leave, but I hate to
:19:36. > :19:46.go. Do you feel like Nelson Mandela? Will, I feel like John
:19:46. > :19:47.
:19:48. > :19:52.Hume, and I think he feels like David Trimble. What we have to do
:19:52. > :19:56.is to produce sensible concrete proposals which can provide in the
:19:56. > :20:01.words of the agreement a new beginning for policing in Northern
:20:01. > :20:08.Ireland. He spent 18 months listening to these tableaux stories
:20:08. > :20:13.of lives destroyed and the damage wrought, and do you accept that you
:20:13. > :20:17.have some attached yourselves? You talk about the need, of having a
:20:17. > :20:22.need to heal the wounds inflicted by the actions of republicans, and
:20:22. > :20:27.part of that involves saying sorry, and that it was wrong. I was a
:20:27. > :20:31.member of the IRA. Do you expect me to stand up and say that I was
:20:31. > :20:38.wrong to join, to support it? We any victims would expect you to say
:20:38. > :20:42.that. Yes, but I am not going to do that. I will say that there were
:20:42. > :20:47.things that at the IRA done, which were wrong. At the heart of the
:20:47. > :20:54.programme have been interviews, striving to shed light. We should
:20:54. > :21:01.be receiving more or, out of the kitty of Europe than we have
:21:01. > :21:08.received an than we have paid in. would ask you not to tap the table,
:21:08. > :21:13.it interferes with our understanding of what you are
:21:13. > :21:18.saying. You're not accusing the Secretary of State and Tony Blair,
:21:18. > :21:23.of Bertie Aherne and others of being anti- Sinn Fein? I am quite
:21:23. > :21:28.able to speak for myself. People are not interested, Mr Thomson, in
:21:28. > :21:31.what you think. If I have the courage to come in and be
:21:32. > :21:35.questioned by you, I'd you put things to me, you should be big
:21:35. > :21:39.enough to answer my questions. not care a damn what you think. I
:21:39. > :21:45.am not speaking to you. I am speaking to the people watching the
:21:45. > :21:49.programme. You said I am giving you an accurate information, I am not.
:21:49. > :21:54.I want to have the right to answer questions rather than your you all
:21:54. > :22:00.the time. You're distorting the situation, Mr Thomson, entirely,
:22:00. > :22:07.and let me say, do not interrupt! That is Sinn Fein saying that.
:22:07. > :22:12.There is no point shouting at me. I will certainly look forward to your
:22:12. > :22:15.answer. For thank you. It would be a good idea before you ask you
:22:16. > :22:22.thought question I if I was allowed to answer the first one. Let them
:22:22. > :22:27.go and boil their heads. What you said, actually, can use say it
:22:27. > :22:31.again? If he stop interrupting and let me speak... I said that I am
:22:31. > :22:37.not a lawyer and I do not understand the precise nature of
:22:37. > :22:44.the legal challenge. I am asking you to take a position. You're
:22:44. > :22:51.actually interrupting me. several world-renowned figures have
:22:51. > :22:55.agreed to be interviewed. Whose version do you believe? I have been
:22:55. > :23:01.nine months out of office and diameter practice with these
:23:01. > :23:06.interviews. I'll get to that, thanks. Along the way we have found
:23:06. > :23:11.it interesting facts about politicians'. There must have been
:23:11. > :23:18.something psychological, someone large and warm and friendly in my
:23:18. > :23:23.past, I cannot remember. I probably have a couple of hundred sure it's,
:23:23. > :23:30.and 400 ties. And it means that you do not have to do the washing for
:23:30. > :23:34.long periods of time. In 1986 I had shingles. I was advised by the
:23:34. > :23:39.doctor to give up swimming and to try something like bird-watching.
:23:39. > :23:45.Which I have found, much to my surprise, I did take it up, I go
:23:45. > :23:49.with my binoculars and a watch pots, and I have been totally addicted. I
:23:49. > :23:54.loved bird-watching. I was a working-class cool that left school
:23:54. > :24:00.with no qualifications, I return to education, eventually came to
:24:00. > :24:07.Queen's College, achieved first class honours. We have heard about
:24:07. > :24:10.the images stuck in the minds of politicians. Will wanted a bit of
:24:10. > :24:15.the Berlin Wall, you would have thought it was moon rock, the way
:24:15. > :24:20.that we felt. Hearts and minds has given a platform to a range of
:24:20. > :24:28.different opinions. Through its if you ask me slot. Does opinions have
:24:28. > :24:35.been brought to life by the inimitable cartoons of Ian Knox.
:24:35. > :24:39.is also famine or a feast. You get a better idea if you have invested
:24:39. > :24:44.too much Labour in it to stop it. You cannot put it aside for
:24:44. > :24:47.tomorrow. Something else is bound to happen. The unique selling point
:24:47. > :24:53.of the programme has always been the sideways look it has taken at
:24:53. > :24:59.politics. We have invited Mr Paul Summers, a popular graphologist to
:24:59. > :25:04.tell us a little bit about them. Affirmation of the letters is quite
:25:04. > :25:11.small but there is a long T-bar formation on the world, Tim, which
:25:11. > :25:16.speaks of someone who will bide their time. I don't quite know what
:25:16. > :25:20.it is but they are hiding something. In their background, there is
:25:20. > :25:25.something hidden. I hiding something, a mature and scared of
:25:25. > :25:29.enlargement, step forward, Martin McGuinness. Gordon Brown has taken
:25:29. > :25:32.to telephoning voters who have been writing to him. Just imagine that
:25:32. > :25:36.happening here. You're halfway through EastEnders, when the
:25:36. > :25:42.telephone rings and it is Peter Robinson or Martin McGuinness on
:25:42. > :25:48.the line. It is a terrifying thought. Peter Robinson year, I
:25:48. > :25:56.have got more than 900 eyes, you know! What would you say to him?
:25:56. > :26:01.Hello, Peter. I would probably just hang up, actually! The politicians
:26:01. > :26:07.really want to know what voters think, maybe bringing them direct
:26:07. > :26:15.is probably not such a good idea. Hello? We are busy at the moment.
:26:15. > :26:20.Hang on a minute. Sorry, it is Gordon Brown. I will have to go.
:26:20. > :26:30.What am I going to do about this image problem? Hearts and minds
:26:30. > :26:37.
:26:37. > :26:41.indulged in a spot of innocent leg- Several Assembly Members have been
:26:41. > :26:47.approached to feature in the calendar. Some have already agreed
:26:47. > :26:56.in principle. One was first approached I said, no way. I had to
:26:56. > :27:01.slim down. I am glad now that the secret is out. We propose to take
:27:01. > :27:05.some discreet naked shots of some of the Emilys. And I said, why not?
:27:05. > :27:12.Some of my party colleagues have been over-exposed in the media
:27:12. > :27:18.already but this would give them a bit of interest. And we cannot
:27:18. > :27:21.forget the taxi driver who was once even promoted. Are you Daniel
:27:21. > :27:26.O'Donnell's long-lost brother? is not an issue that will come
:27:26. > :27:31.before the Ulster Unionist Council. Are you the sexiest politician in
:27:31. > :27:35.Northern Ireland? I am not going to answer that question, because I
:27:35. > :27:42.think it would be difficult for me to answer that question without
:27:42. > :27:47.appearing immodest. Did he take his speech with him or did he leave
:27:47. > :27:51.your copy? People think that the key role of the SDLP has been in
:27:51. > :27:59.mediating, but we have been at the case of what we stand for and what
:27:59. > :28:04.we want to see. So, Marton, where do you get that horrible shock?
:28:04. > :28:08.Nelson Mandela was sitting in this year, would you be daring to ask
:28:08. > :28:15.him the date of question you asked me at the beginning? I think not.
:28:15. > :28:20.That shows the double-standards applied by many journalists.
:28:20. > :28:26.course, to make a programme like this requires a team of people,
:28:26. > :28:30.some of whom have moved on, most of whom you do not see on camera, in
:28:30. > :28:36.producer -- in particular, the producer, Marie Kelly, the power
:28:36. > :28:41.behind the throne. Tonight, we wish her well as the lights come down
:28:41. > :28:45.for the last time on hearts and minds. Judith, on the good old bad
:28:45. > :28:50.old days. It is been my privilege to sit in the seat for many years
:28:50. > :28:54.as momentous events have unfolded. I hope that you feel that we have
:28:54. > :29:04.cast some light along the way. You have had your lot, thank you for
:29:04. > :29:08.
:29:08. > :29:12.watching, and goodbye. I have worked it out, you have done 3982
:29:12. > :29:17.interviews with politicians. Forget Kenneth Branagh, you deserve a
:29:17. > :29:23.knighthood. I am only slagging. Martin McGuinness would get a
:29:23. > :29:30.knighthood, before he would! I went to the doctor and said, I feel like
:29:30. > :29:33.a pair of curtains, and he said, tough, I am on strike. It is like
:29:33. > :29:37.Wayne Rooney going on strike over the price of shampoo. She did not
:29:37. > :29:42.think you would see if they win the deputy chief does the ball speaks
:29:42. > :29:47.better Iris and Gerry Adams, mind you, Jim Allison speaks better