:00:21. > :00:23.Hello and welcome to Hearts and Minds. Coming up on this week's
:00:23. > :00:26.programme: Cleaning up its act, the UDA in
:00:26. > :00:31.North Belfast claims its left wrongdoing behind and embraced
:00:31. > :00:37.social responsibility. Why the Catholic grammars can now
:00:37. > :00:45.ignore the Church on selection. And measuring myth against fact in
:00:45. > :00:48.the search for truth about the The supergrass trial which ended
:00:48. > :00:52.this week focused attention on North Belfast, which has been one
:00:52. > :00:55.of the strongholds of loyalist paramilitaries. Now though the UDA
:00:55. > :00:59.in that area says it has changed its spots, abandoned crime, and is
:00:59. > :01:02.sitting at what it calls a table of accountability, with the police,
:01:02. > :01:06.the churches and community organisations. John Howcroft a
:01:06. > :01:12.former UDA prisoner is a spokesman for the group. Welcome to the
:01:12. > :01:17.programme. You have launched a charm offensive with booklets
:01:17. > :01:21.detailing changes to murals in north Belfast. Have you not jumped
:01:21. > :01:24.the gun? The man in charge of the UDA in North Belfast says there are
:01:24. > :01:29.people involved in crime in the organisation and if you talk to the
:01:30. > :01:33.police, they will tell thaw the UDA is up to its neck in crime? There
:01:33. > :01:41.is various issues. I wouldn't describe it as a charm offensive
:01:41. > :01:48.because it goes deeper and more inherent. We have a launch of a
:01:48. > :01:56.booklet today and I am talking as the community did of a reimaging
:01:56. > :02:03.process from Tiger's Bay, You areer Ardoyne and -- upper Ardoyne and
:02:03. > :02:06.Ballysillan. Now to be fair, there is a quote from Percy Windham Lewis,
:02:06. > :02:10.if you want to know what is happening at any given moment in
:02:10. > :02:13.time then art is a truer guide than politics and in that context, if
:02:13. > :02:20.you look at what is happening, the massive change that is happening,
:02:20. > :02:25.there has been physical change there with murials being removed
:02:25. > :02:29.and they have been replaced with new community generated images.
:02:29. > :02:33.The UDA is still involved in crime in the area? Well, it has been
:02:33. > :02:40.pointed out if anybody is involved in crime in them areas, there is a
:02:40. > :02:43.table of accountability. Everybody sits together at the table of
:02:43. > :02:50.accountability where the police and Belfast City Council and if anybody
:02:50. > :02:52.is involved in them things... John Bunting the self-styled
:02:52. > :02:56.brigadier said there is still people involved in crime?
:02:56. > :03:02.actually says there maybe people involved in crime.
:03:02. > :03:06.The police will tell you that the UDA is involved in all sorts of
:03:06. > :03:10.crime. It would be up to the police to deal with crime.
:03:10. > :03:16.The police will tell the BBC, the police will tell anyone, that the
:03:16. > :03:21.UDA is still involved in crime in North Belfast. All I can speak for
:03:21. > :03:24.is North Belfast. There is a table of accountability and nothing about
:03:24. > :03:29.extortion or anything came to the table. We are working with
:03:29. > :03:34.businesses in that area at a community level. The Cityside
:03:34. > :03:37.Complex has over 20 businesses. Over three years ago, they were
:03:37. > :03:41.talking about forced closure. They are sitting at a table to address
:03:41. > :03:44.the issues. These are businesses that the UDA
:03:44. > :03:47.was extorting money from? That happened years ago.
:03:47. > :03:53.Five years ago it was happening? Absolutely.
:03:53. > :03:56.That's not ancient history? hasn't been occurring for the last
:03:56. > :04:02.four years. By what right does the UDA sit at
:04:02. > :04:06.this table of accountability? Nobody voted for you, you are self-
:04:07. > :04:11.styled ash tors of the community. Who needs you? It is not a case of
:04:11. > :04:16.the UDA sitting at table of accountability, but the UDA are
:04:16. > :04:18.accountable at that table. Representatives of community groups,
:04:18. > :04:23.representative churches, police and other agencies, all them sit at
:04:23. > :04:27.that table. What right does the UDA have a seat
:04:27. > :04:31.at that table? There has to be accountability. We are on a
:04:31. > :04:35.trasitional jus -- transitional justice programme. We have a new
:04:35. > :04:40.police service. We have DPPs, devolution of policing and criminal
:04:40. > :04:45.justice, they have to reach down to communities. Communities are
:04:45. > :04:50.creating a table of accountability to make them processes real.
:04:50. > :04:57.Why doesn't the UDA just go away? Well, that's a question for that
:04:57. > :05:01.organisation. You are close to the thinking of the UDA? Absolutely.
:05:01. > :05:08.Why don't they pack up their tents and go away? Everything is a
:05:08. > :05:13.process. There is a process on the the Good Friday Agreement, called
:05:13. > :05:21.DDR, decommissioning, demobilisation, it has begun. Not
:05:21. > :05:26.just the change, demobilise or demilitarise, we are demilitarising
:05:26. > :05:29.mind sets. The best way to that is disband.
:05:29. > :05:33.Who needs a brigadier in North Belfast? Who needs the organisation
:05:33. > :05:37.of the UDA which was terrorising that community by its own
:05:37. > :05:41.admission? To be fair, there has been nothing
:05:41. > :05:43.happened in North Belfast in the last number of years and if you
:05:44. > :05:51.have got evidence of anything happening there, I would like you
:05:51. > :05:57.to present it to the police. IMC gave it a few years ago?
:05:57. > :06:01.IMC actually came out, Noel. There was a community IMC set-up. It
:06:01. > :06:05.included politicians from the Republican community, community
:06:05. > :06:08.workers from there, loyalist politicians, unionist politicians
:06:08. > :06:14.and members of churches, everybody across North Belfast and the
:06:14. > :06:17.community MC told the MC what was happening on the ground and it
:06:17. > :06:22.wasn't an accurate assessment. Let's accept your argument that
:06:22. > :06:27.there is nothing going on at the moment. If that's the case why is
:06:27. > :06:33.there the need for an organisation called the UDA? Well, that's a
:06:33. > :06:40.matter for debate within loyalism. Why would we need one at all?
:06:40. > :06:43.we are trying to bring things back. See one of the mottoes in loyalism
:06:43. > :06:49.is law before balance. That is an important motto.
:06:49. > :06:53.One which they ignored for 40 years? Regardless of that, it is an
:06:53. > :06:56.important motto. It is about bringing things back to that. That
:06:56. > :07:02.table accountability that you speak of is trying to bring things back
:07:02. > :07:07.to that, to change them communities. That process will take a period of
:07:07. > :07:10.time. That's part of a local programme that is changing them
:07:10. > :07:14.communities and that organisation. So is the aim of the UDA to see
:07:14. > :07:21.itself go out of existence? Obviously there needs to be some
:07:21. > :07:25.end game, but how long is a piece of string, Noel? These processes
:07:25. > :07:28.take time. You have to bring a lot of people along on a journey with
:07:28. > :07:32.you. There is lots of sensitivities involved in the processes. There is
:07:32. > :07:38.a lot of people living with a lot of traumas. A lot of people would
:07:38. > :07:42.say they haven't seen the benefits of the peace process. We need...
:07:42. > :07:51.immediate disappearance? We we need periods of massive change.
:07:51. > :07:54.John Howcroft, thank you. If at any time during the abuse of
:07:54. > :07:56.innocents the institutional Catholic Church hadn't thought
:07:56. > :08:00.first about its own prestige, you could almost feel sorry for the
:08:00. > :08:06.northern bishops. Even for Cardinal Brady, the wounded healer wrapped
:08:06. > :08:11.in such denial. Now the pillars of his church are, so to speak,
:08:11. > :08:14.blowing smoke in his eyes. Once again this week he tried to sway
:08:14. > :08:17.grammar schools, sounding sharper than before about those for whom
:08:17. > :08:20.selection is like holy writ. Now some take children with low grades
:08:20. > :08:22.to keep their numbers up, becoming all-ability schools "by stealth",
:08:22. > :08:29.said the cardinal, leaving secondary schools to "bear all the
:08:29. > :08:33.negative consequences of educational change." He talked of
:08:33. > :08:40.collective need, sharing of resources. The jewel of Belfast's
:08:40. > :08:46.convent schools swiftly rubbished him. St Dominic's won't do what the
:08:46. > :08:53.church says. When the prelates wielding the old crooked staffs
:08:53. > :08:56.have been shrunk by scandal, the belt of a crozier holds no terror.
:08:56. > :08:58.Auxiliary Bishop of Down and Connor Donal McKeown, alongside the
:08:58. > :09:01.cardinal, was confident that schools wouldn't defy the church.
:09:01. > :09:11.Though some, quote, "would be harder nuts to crack" than others.
:09:11. > :09:11.
:09:11. > :09:14.There's been no rush to obey, but the hard nuts are lining out. Next
:09:14. > :09:17.to say they'd stick with selection were St Louis, Kilkeel, my own old
:09:17. > :09:20.school long ago and Lumen Christi, Light of Christ, Derry's beacon for
:09:20. > :09:29.the affluent, with only seven per cent on its rolls entitled to free
:09:29. > :09:31.school dinners. Here's the church being progressive. And this past
:09:31. > :09:34.three years they're laughed at by principals and governors, the
:09:34. > :09:44.sector beyond the clergy most closely identified down the ages
:09:44. > :09:45.
:09:45. > :09:47.with conservatism, holding the line. When the 11-plus got its fail mark
:09:47. > :09:50.from Education Minister, Martin McGuinness Catholic grammars didn't
:09:50. > :09:53.start shouting. They left that to the mouthpieces of the big state
:09:53. > :10:00.grammars, who scarcely tried to deny that the selective system is
:10:00. > :10:02.bad to secondary schools. There's endless self-congratulation about
:10:03. > :10:05.Northern Ireland's A-level results, little concern that we also have
:10:05. > :10:08.the highest proportion in the UK of school leavers with no
:10:08. > :10:10.qualifications. Study after study shows that boys from the poorest
:10:11. > :10:15.Protestant districts get least from education, though the likes of the
:10:15. > :10:18.Bogside and New Lodge do poorly too. But unionist politicians treat the
:10:18. > :10:25.issue as though it's simply Sinn Fein attacking Protestant icons -
:10:25. > :10:29.nothing to do with falling rolls, modernising, never mind fairness.
:10:29. > :10:31.Gerry Fitt famously said as the SDLP took off that he was up to his
:10:31. > :10:38.waistcoat in "expletive deleted" teachers. Sinn Fein made the public
:10:38. > :10:44.running. The older party already opposed judging the ability of 11-
:10:44. > :10:46.year-olds. Teachers know the damage that's done. The bishops'
:10:46. > :10:48.conversion follows decades of prizing grammars, source of
:10:48. > :10:52.upwardly mobile Catholics, who've come into their own and want more
:10:52. > :10:56.still for their grandchildren. It's a bad time for their church, shadow
:10:56. > :11:00.of its former self, to take them on. Especially not with appeals for
:11:00. > :11:04.unselfishness and sharing. thoughts of Fionnuala O'Connor.
:11:04. > :11:07.With Europe's eyes glued to the unravelling of the Greek euro ci
:11:07. > :11:10.circumstances Ireland's financial woes may have slipped out of the
:11:10. > :11:14.headlines, but things are finely balanced. Yesterday, was a case in
:11:14. > :11:20.point with the Government's announcement of the sale of 3
:11:20. > :11:30.billion euro of State assets coinciding with news of new jobs
:11:30. > :11:36.
:11:36. > :11:42.On a wet morning in February, it is easy to focus on the neglect tich.
:11:42. > :11:46.It is true in Dublin, there are signs this is not the best of times.
:11:46. > :11:54.It seems, that's not the whole story. I have been hearing a tale
:11:54. > :11:59.of two economies. This week, we have the news that
:11:59. > :12:04.the US online payments firm, PayPal is to create 1,000 new jobs in
:12:04. > :12:07.Dundalk. The result of this is an example of
:12:07. > :12:14.confidence in our country and opportunity and hope being
:12:14. > :12:16.expressed for so many young people. While Europe looked on enviously as
:12:16. > :12:21.Ireland hosted the Vice President of China, the world's largest
:12:21. > :12:31.economy for a three-day trade visit. The people living in the Republic
:12:31. > :12:34.paint a different picture. I live in Donegal, five miles from the
:12:34. > :12:38.Strabane border, and industry, no, there is no jobs for the young
:12:38. > :12:42.people in Donegal. There is a lot of people closing down. There is no
:12:42. > :12:46.industry coming. A lot of me friends are moving away,
:12:46. > :12:48.you know. Everyone that's graduating in college and stuff.
:12:48. > :12:52.There is not much for them to do here.
:12:52. > :12:54.The younger people with mortgages and with the day-to-day cost of
:12:54. > :12:58.living, they are finding it difficult and especially bringing
:12:58. > :13:02.up a family. All the bars, restaurants, small
:13:02. > :13:07.businesses, are suffering terribly. It is It is almost like there is
:13:07. > :13:13.two economies. One of them is flying, strange as it may seem,
:13:14. > :13:18.there is an export economy, a nulty -- multinational based economy.
:13:18. > :13:21.That gives us things like the PayPal announcement and that
:13:21. > :13:27.economy is this riving, the domestic economy, however, is still
:13:27. > :13:30.pretty much in the dom the doldrums. Growth is flat lining and
:13:30. > :13:34.contracting last year and that tends to be the economy that most
:13:34. > :13:42.people are feeling. And that economy is also generating
:13:42. > :13:46.its own figures. There is almost 1% more people unemployed than this
:13:46. > :13:50.time time last yearment we have one of the fifth highest rates of
:13:50. > :13:57.suicides across Europe. People between 18 and 24 which is an
:13:57. > :14:00.indication of how much people are struggling and since 2008, to 2011,
:14:00. > :14:05.almost 90,000 people, Irish people have emigrated.
:14:05. > :14:09.It was true that of the people we spoke to, only one felt that life
:14:09. > :14:15.in Ireland was improving. I am an architect and architects
:14:15. > :14:20.have been badly hit. Even in the construction sector, there is the
:14:20. > :14:24.beginnings of growth. It will be probably longer for construction
:14:24. > :14:27.because it was so badly hit, but the export sector is pulling the
:14:27. > :14:31.whole country along. The European leaders are focusing
:14:31. > :14:37.on the positive in Ireland because they like to see it as an example
:14:37. > :14:45.of austerity measures working. So has the bail out been a success?
:14:45. > :14:50.That's the $6 million question. In some respects, it is. In other
:14:50. > :14:55.respects, it is simply too early to tell. If there is to be a recovery
:14:55. > :15:00.and that will take place over four or five years then this is what the
:15:00. > :15:04.early stages of it look like. On the other hand an open export based
:15:04. > :15:08.economy like like Ireland is susceptible to international, the
:15:08. > :15:14.winds of international trade and that's why an emerging slowdown in
:15:14. > :15:18.Europe is worrying news for Ireland. Europe needs one of its bail outs
:15:19. > :15:23.to be a success. Ireland is currently the best hope for that.
:15:23. > :15:31.Of course, this isn't just about the Republic. Economists on our
:15:31. > :15:36.side of the border are watching It is highly significant for us in
:15:37. > :15:42.Northern Ireland in the sense that the two main external engines, the
:15:42. > :15:45.market pulling the economy along, are the great British market, and
:15:45. > :15:51.then secondly the Irish Republic market. The Republic of Ireland is
:15:51. > :15:55.the destination, in terms of exports, for around 8% of our
:15:55. > :16:01.manufacturing output east year. Be used to be 10 %, so you can see
:16:01. > :16:05.there is a decline, but it is still the best export market for the
:16:05. > :16:10.manufacturing sector. Food construction, parts of tourism,
:16:10. > :16:15.they are all very much linked into the Irish Republic economy.
:16:15. > :16:18.return for underwriting a new bail- out fund, German chancellor Angela
:16:18. > :16:23.Merkel wants all Eurozone states to promise to be more careful with
:16:24. > :16:28.budgets and the future. 25 states, including Ireland, have signed up
:16:28. > :16:34.to the German inspired physical pack. The UK has not. But in the
:16:34. > :16:38.republic, that could mean another referendum. -- fiscal pact. There
:16:38. > :16:42.is an obligation to have other referendums in Europe, but they are
:16:42. > :16:47.never on that, it is something different usually. This time it
:16:47. > :16:53.will be a referendum on war austerity or property taxes, septic
:16:53. > :16:56.tank charges. If there is to be a referendum, and it is voted down,
:16:56. > :17:02.that has huge implications not just for the future of the entire bail-
:17:02. > :17:10.out treaty but for Ireland's place in the euro. That is an enormous
:17:10. > :17:13.issue and will be very much alive for the next few months.
:17:13. > :17:15.Whataboutery has long been a favourite pastime in this part of
:17:15. > :17:17.the world. Myth has sustained prejudice and misunderstanding,
:17:17. > :17:20.feeding conflict to the advantage of no-one. But occasionally it's
:17:20. > :17:23.useful to measure myth against fact, and that's what the Brian Walker
:17:23. > :17:25.claims he's done in his latest political history, sub-titled from
:17:25. > :17:31.Partition to Peace. Professor Walker is here along with the
:17:31. > :17:39.commentator Eammon McCann. Welcome to both of you. If you are a
:17:39. > :17:46.Catholic, you cannot get a job in Derry Goran house. It is quite
:17:46. > :17:51.wrong to say Catholics could not get jobs. The north-west had seen a
:17:51. > :17:56.tremendous input of jobs during the 1950s. The second thing is about
:17:56. > :17:59.housing. Rather than there being no housing for Catholics in Derry in
:17:59. > :18:02.the 1960s there had been a vast programme. My third point is there
:18:02. > :18:07.was a need for a civil rights movement. That might sound
:18:07. > :18:11.contradictory, but let me explain. In the case of housing, the Cameron
:18:11. > :18:17.Commission said there had been a vast programme of housing. And what
:18:17. > :18:24.he means is that from 1945 until 1960, a large number of houses were
:18:24. > :18:32.built, but what then happened was in the early 1960s this stops. The
:18:32. > :18:38.Unionist Council stops it. Their population rise of 2000 between
:18:38. > :18:42.1961 and none would... So there was discrimination? It is not a myth.
:18:42. > :18:45.Let me explain. There has been a consider revision of housing. When
:18:45. > :18:51.that stopped, that created the crowds is, not because they could
:18:51. > :18:56.aggregate them. The growth was stopped and then that made the
:18:56. > :19:00.crisis. Eamonn McCann, is that your view? By wouldn't argue about the
:19:00. > :19:05.statistics, but they are not everything when it comes to
:19:05. > :19:08.politics and social movements. It is true that in the aftermath of
:19:08. > :19:14.the Second World War quite a large number of houses were built in
:19:14. > :19:22.Derry. And there was one estate which was the obvious example which
:19:22. > :19:29.took the overspill. But it was also the case, and statistics can be so
:19:29. > :19:38.deceptive, that there were still a desperate need from Catholic
:19:38. > :19:43.working-class people. Certainly when I was living, you had multiple
:19:43. > :19:47.occupation, and part of the reason for this was even if you do build
:19:47. > :19:54.houses, in Derry, and no doubt elsewhere, you had a rapid growth
:19:54. > :20:01.of a population. 1965, up to 1967, 40 -- or 2% of the population was
:20:01. > :20:09.under 15. -- 40 %. It was Britain in the mid- 19th century is what it
:20:09. > :20:13.resembled, not the 20th century. Even though they had built a lot of
:20:13. > :20:18.houses in one side there remained desperate housing conditions and
:20:18. > :20:22.people coming on stream, as it were, and no sign of a solution in sight.
:20:22. > :20:28.That was the context in which the statistics have to be understood.
:20:28. > :20:34.would refer a month to the auto biography of the singer Dana, she
:20:34. > :20:39.moved into a new house in the 1950s, and then there is a slum clearance,
:20:39. > :20:41.and she moves into a new house in 1967. But I accept the point from a
:20:42. > :20:46.month. There is a need for more housing, but I make the point there
:20:46. > :20:49.is such turmoil is that people expected it, and they were right to
:20:49. > :20:54.expect it, but there were vast number of new houses that stopped
:20:54. > :20:58.and that is what created the crisis. It is not true to say that people
:20:58. > :21:01.we used to getting houses. You can take any example you want, and
:21:01. > :21:06.there was Rosemary Brown who lived across the street, and her family
:21:06. > :21:11.moved twice, that is fine. But it is true there were people stuck
:21:12. > :21:16.there for literally generations. I don't at any time recommend an
:21:16. > :21:21.unhappy childhood, but my parents were on a housing waiting list for
:21:21. > :21:28.22 years. When my older sister turned up, they had been waiting
:21:28. > :21:35.for a child -- for a house until she was grown-up. The professor
:21:35. > :21:39.quotes a statistic that of of the housing stock, about a third was
:21:39. > :21:44.inhabited by Catholics, which is about the right proportion at the
:21:44. > :21:48.time. I am talking about all over Northern Ireland. In Derry there
:21:48. > :21:53.was a substantial division of housing in my opinion. Moving on to
:21:53. > :21:56.the second myth, that is the idea that there was little industrial
:21:56. > :22:02.development in Derry and the Unionist government staff the area
:22:02. > :22:05.of jobs. That is completely untrue. I would argue that the Brogborough
:22:05. > :22:10.government was more successful than the power-sharing government has
:22:10. > :22:15.been. My evidence for this is that in the 1950s the government brings
:22:15. > :22:21.in a outside firms, one firm that employs 2000 men and brings in
:22:21. > :22:28.another firm, and I got reports of how successful they were, but the
:22:28. > :22:33.problem is in 1966 D S R Paul out. And that creates a problem. You
:22:33. > :22:39.have a crisis of new problems, created by the circumstances. That
:22:39. > :22:45.leaves the Auld promise of Gerry Marnie. -- problem of
:22:45. > :22:50.gerrymandering. I do not know who the professor is arguing against,
:22:50. > :22:56.because the expansion of jobs, and the company is coming in, all of
:22:56. > :23:00.those factories came to replace indigenous industry. So low it is
:23:00. > :23:04.not the unions government staff in the north-west? In so far as that
:23:04. > :23:10.was true, it is a minor part of the tree. Not only do I excepted, I was
:23:10. > :23:14.writing about this in the 1970s and charted all of this. The problem
:23:14. > :23:18.with jobs and the civil rights movement is mainly to do with
:23:18. > :23:21.public sector employment, and specifically employment by the
:23:21. > :23:29.local council. I think it is mentioned in your book, Professor,
:23:29. > :23:35.that only one in 10 houses were occupied by Catholics. And in 1968
:23:35. > :23:38.when the problems erupted, there was not one single Catholic working
:23:38. > :23:42.in dairy town hall. That was a source of intense anger and
:23:42. > :23:48.frustration -- dairy town hall. That does not mean there would
:23:48. > :23:52.economic problems, of course there were, but that was discussed and
:23:52. > :23:57.factored in at the time by people like myself. So the situation is
:23:57. > :24:01.not as simple as people on all sides might make it be. It is never
:24:01. > :24:07.black and white, it is all great. Gerrymandering, why is that a myth?
:24:07. > :24:11.That is not a myth. Gerrymandering is something I've always been
:24:11. > :24:17.opposed to, but as a historian I have to understand it. Why did
:24:17. > :24:19.unions in Derry support this? The reasons are is because the North
:24:19. > :24:28.and South dimension is important and people in Derry were conscious
:24:28. > :24:32.of what was happening in the rest of Ireland. It was a very specific
:24:32. > :24:37.case with the Protestants in Derry, they are next to Donegal, and what
:24:37. > :24:42.they see their is 5,000 Protestants signing a petition to the British
:24:42. > :24:52.government to have the border region or -- redrawn bacon rejoin
:24:52. > :24:56.
:24:56. > :25:06.Ireland, it is so repressive. In 1961, there is the arch
:25:06. > :25:08.
:25:08. > :25:10.gerrymandering man, Neil Blayney, he gerrymander as Donegal and 5,000
:25:11. > :25:15.electors were moved in gerrymandering. Unionists see it
:25:15. > :25:19.happening across the board and they are not likely to give in to
:25:19. > :25:23.commands or desire for more democracy when they see this. I am
:25:23. > :25:29.glad to say the situation has changed, but I want to point this
:25:29. > :25:37.out. Let a man had his say first. They were both at it. -- let a
:25:37. > :25:42.month. I don't think anybody ever denied this but the South of
:25:42. > :25:46.Ireland was the confessional part of the state and one of the great
:25:46. > :25:50.heroes for my father was Brown, the man he was driven from office in
:25:50. > :25:56.the 50s by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. We were well aware of
:25:56. > :25:59.that. There is nothing new as far as I'm concerned. Myths on the
:25:59. > :26:03.Unionist side, the feeling that the mass was never interested in closer
:26:03. > :26:09.co-operation with Northern Ireland, and that even O'Neill was not
:26:10. > :26:14.interested. You dismiss that? dismiss that. There is a mistaken
:26:14. > :26:23.Unionist view of the 1960s and an aggressive nationalism, and they
:26:23. > :26:27.were faced with this. They have the wrong end of the stick. Lomas comes
:26:27. > :26:30.to power in 1959, and one of the first things he does is to say that
:26:30. > :26:33.from now on the government department will stop talking about
:26:33. > :26:38.the six counties, it is Northern Ireland. He then strikes up a
:26:38. > :26:44.better relationship with the North and in 1965, he comes north, and
:26:44. > :26:49.Ian Paisley opposes that. But what he does not realise is the
:26:49. > :26:55.nationalists were also shocked. So Eddie McAteer goes down to complain
:26:55. > :26:57.to Dublin, and the mass tells him to catch himself on. As far as he's
:26:57. > :27:07.concerned the Catholics are as bad as the Protestant. Intractable as
:27:07. > :27:11.the world -- used the word. In 1966, the Unionists see the celebrations
:27:11. > :27:15.as a threat, but the mass was -- Lomas was in control and direct the
:27:15. > :27:23.way they will go and says the emphasis will not be on the past or
:27:23. > :27:27.the six counties, it will be on the future. Again, it is nationalists
:27:27. > :27:31.moving in this. There have been demonstrations in the North in 1967,
:27:31. > :27:37.but in the south they have been ignored, and the final, crucial
:27:37. > :27:42.thing is, Lomas, he joins the committee to look at the
:27:42. > :27:45.constitution, and they recommend that article 3 should be thrown out
:27:45. > :27:50.and a new clause Broughton, similar to the Good Friday agreement, so
:27:50. > :27:54.that was on offer 30 years ago. Unionists misunderstand what was
:27:54. > :27:58.happening. Eamonn McCann, when you read the books, you wonder how
:27:58. > :28:03.things could have been with a slightly different coming-together
:28:03. > :28:08.of events and personalities. Absolutely. Things didn't have to
:28:08. > :28:13.work out as they did, or at all. There were other potentialities in
:28:13. > :28:20.the situation. When I speak of somebody arguing against
:28:20. > :28:24.nationalism, we were explosive -- explicit about this. This is not
:28:24. > :28:28.something claimed in retrospect. The civil rights movement and the
:28:28. > :28:30.mobilisation behind it had not been on a basis of class, not on the
:28:30. > :28:35.basis of equalising the two communities, then there was
:28:35. > :28:41.enormous potential. The coming of Lomas in all of the developments in
:28:41. > :28:45.the South was about economics. He didn't wake up and say let's be
:28:45. > :28:50.nice to the north, he woke up and said that the small state in the
:28:50. > :28:55.south could not exist in isolation, so they had to be a reproach month
:28:55. > :28:59.with Britain which had implications with the North. We could talk all
:28:59. > :29:03.night, gentlemen. And that's where we must leave it this time round.
:29:03. > :29:13.We'll do it again next week at the usual times. I hope you'll join me.
:29:13. > :29:14.
:29:14. > :29:19.Goodbye. What and why? Invisible. This week it's all about money.
:29:19. > :29:22.Ulster Bank are now the Glasgow Rangers of banking and they have
:29:22. > :29:24.For -- the millions on a failed Supergrass trial. Even though they
:29:24. > :29:29.couldn't prove against the defendants, the barristers made a
:29:29. > :29:33.killing. And they spent 100 million on a golf course. Environmentalists
:29:33. > :29:39.say it is a threat to the giant's Causeway, it is miles away. Even