:00:26. > :00:31.Welcome to the programme. Coming up, we ask Peter Robinson if
:00:31. > :00:37.threatening to resign over Curran and Prince is the right way to woo
:00:37. > :00:41.Catholic voters? As councils take over animal welfare, are they ready
:00:41. > :00:45.for the job? Is it up to the nanny state to save
:00:45. > :00:51.us from our damaging lifestyles? Why the invisible work of women
:00:51. > :00:55.should form part of global economic calculations.
:00:55. > :01:01.The DUP is gathering this weekend for its annual conference. Peter
:01:01. > :01:05.Robinson is with me. Welcome to the programme. Which Peter Robinson do
:01:05. > :01:09.we have? The all-embracing Mr Robinson looking for Catholic votes
:01:09. > :01:12.to retain himself as First Minister or the Peter Robinson he would
:01:12. > :01:16.throw the whole thing up in the air? People are talking about a
:01:16. > :01:19.split personality. Unfortunately the people talking
:01:19. > :01:27.about that probably haven't gauge the importance of the issue of what
:01:27. > :01:32.you refer to as the badge. I spent many years in the run-up to sit
:01:32. > :01:36.Andrews in ensuring we had a system that was it like the previous one,
:01:36. > :01:40.the St Andrew's the agreement changed the method by which
:01:40. > :01:43.decisions were made in Northern Ireland under the Belfast Agreement
:01:43. > :01:48.ministers could do whatever they wanted in their department, no
:01:48. > :01:53.accountability, can be changed at the Executive, even in the Assembly
:01:53. > :02:00.itself. We changed all of that. You didn't need to threaten to
:02:00. > :02:03.resign, you could have just have made a controversial issue.
:02:03. > :02:08.The Minister himself has to judge it is a controversial or
:02:08. > :02:11.significant issue and bring it to the Executive. On this occasion the
:02:11. > :02:15.minister told the Assembly he didn't consider this was a matter
:02:15. > :02:19.to be dealt with by politicians battle, it was a matter of
:02:19. > :02:25.operational importance and will be dealt with by officials.
:02:25. > :02:30.You had a quiet word in his ear, that would have told him that.
:02:30. > :02:33.twice stated during the Assembly debate it was very clear he was put
:02:33. > :02:37.a bit of public record and I was putting it on public record that is
:02:37. > :02:40.not the way things work. You said you wanted to make it
:02:40. > :02:44.possible or comfortable for Catholics to vote for the DUP, as
:02:44. > :02:50.comfortable for them as everybody else. He was stepping on an issue
:02:50. > :02:55.which many Catholics see as a throwback to the old Peter Robinson.
:02:55. > :02:59.I was glad one of the people who came out was a Roman Catholic who
:02:59. > :03:03.indicated peace symbols were reported. This isn't a thing about
:03:03. > :03:09.Protestant and Catholic, this was a change being made by a minister
:03:09. > :03:13.behind the backs of the Assembly. This was an issue of whether we
:03:13. > :03:21.should maintain symbols in Northern Ireland. It sounds like a terribly
:03:21. > :03:25.old argument. We had it with their PSNI. What is wrong with us having
:03:25. > :03:31.British symbols in Northern Ireland? We are part of the United
:03:31. > :03:34.Kingdom. The peer -- the PSNI badge retains that. The Democratic
:03:34. > :03:37.Unionist Party had been in power at the time when the Patten report was
:03:37. > :03:41.coming along, you wouldn't have had this kind of changes. There is
:03:41. > :03:44.nothing wrong with having British symbols in British Ulster.
:03:45. > :03:49.think you would have had the devolution of police, injustice,
:03:50. > :03:55.the support for for the police if it had still been the Royal Ulster
:03:55. > :03:59.Constabulary? We are where we are. It is requested to Sinn Fein, I
:03:59. > :04:03.cannot answer it. There is appeasement right down the line and
:04:03. > :04:06.Unionists are fed up. There is a very clear view within the Unionist
:04:06. > :04:09.community we are not giving up our British heritage and we are
:04:09. > :04:14.prepared to stand over the decisions we are paid. One man's
:04:14. > :04:18.appeasement is another man's recognition of identity and
:04:18. > :04:21.aspiration. I have to say, there was a full
:04:22. > :04:25.report carried out as a result of the review of the Prison Service.
:04:25. > :04:30.This was not one of the recommendations. I haven't had any
:04:30. > :04:34.body until this was raised by David Ford in the Assembly, I haven't had
:04:34. > :04:37.any body indicating this was an important issue for them. This
:04:37. > :04:42.wasn't a matter of concern to any section of our community until it
:04:42. > :04:44.became an issue because of David Ford's remarks. Has he made it a
:04:44. > :04:49.bigger issue at one which now nationalists and republicans will
:04:49. > :04:56.not let go of? If you had just had a word in his ear it would have
:04:57. > :05:02.stayed under the radar. It is over, it is decided. You have been seen
:05:02. > :05:07.again as the backward-looking Peter Robinson. You have to look at the
:05:07. > :05:10.commentators. The that is your view. On the basis of what commentators
:05:10. > :05:14.say, if I was to believe them we wouldn't be winning the last
:05:14. > :05:18.election. Let's be clear what this issue was about. It was about
:05:18. > :05:23.standing up for the right of elected representatives to take
:05:23. > :05:26.decisions, and we would go forward in this province by agreement, not
:05:26. > :05:28.somebody going by a circuitous route to take decisions which
:05:28. > :05:33.wouldn't get agreement in the Executive.
:05:33. > :05:37.Another issue of concern is Jeffrey Donaldson, senior party of remember
:05:37. > :05:40.rushing to London to complain about changes to the Act of Settlement
:05:40. > :05:45.which will allow the royal family to marry a Catholic, is there
:05:45. > :05:49.something you are concerned about? You say it is an issue of concern,
:05:49. > :05:53.who is concerned? I go round the province every day of the week,
:05:53. > :05:58.nobody has ever raised the issue with me. It is clearly of interest
:05:58. > :06:02.to the Orange Order but a Roman Catholic cannot be the monarch, nor
:06:02. > :06:05.indeed can a Free Presbyterian, nor can a member of the Presbyterian
:06:05. > :06:09.church or a Methodist, or some of the other denominations. It is not
:06:09. > :06:14.discrimination against Roman Catholic Church, it is a
:06:14. > :06:19.recognition that the Queen is the head of the Anglican Church. Do you
:06:19. > :06:22.think it changed is correct, the 16 heads of state of the Commonwealth
:06:22. > :06:27.or two was OK? There are a number of state around
:06:27. > :06:32.the world that have religious leaders as they head, and the two
:06:32. > :06:35.are combined, the Vatican is another example, nobody is talking
:06:35. > :06:38.about disestablishment of the Vatican state so that the Pope
:06:39. > :06:43.would no longer be the head of it. If you start tampering with
:06:43. > :06:46.constitution, which has served us very well for generations, you get
:06:46. > :06:51.into real difficulty. David Cameron said it was
:06:51. > :06:58.discriminatory against Catholics. It is discriminatory against repro
:06:58. > :07:03.-- Free Presbyterians, Baptists. You don't see it as another kind of
:07:03. > :07:07.mixed message that is being sent out? In the context of you wanting
:07:07. > :07:12.to or saying you want to open the DUP up, naked constable for
:07:12. > :07:16.Catholics, you don't see people look at issues like that and think
:07:16. > :07:26.there is no way I am voting for that lot -- make comfortable for
:07:26. > :07:30.
:07:30. > :07:34.Catholics. It is not in issue, why it look at
:07:34. > :07:39.one denomination. Being on marrying a monarch. Let's be clear, those
:07:39. > :07:44.are not issues we are meeting with people on the streets, people are
:07:44. > :07:47.trying to build a society in Northern Ireland and that is
:07:47. > :07:51.something we are pitted our energy into. We are having to deal with
:07:51. > :07:56.the day-to-day difficulties of rebuilding our economy, those are
:07:57. > :08:06.the issues people are talking about. I know you say commentators are not
:08:07. > :08:10.
:08:10. > :08:13.important, but... I did not say What -- were not important.
:08:13. > :08:18.Irish News this week has been saying you have refused to do
:08:18. > :08:26.interview with him, why? I haven't refused to do an interview, if you
:08:26. > :08:29.want to get into the particular, it is I have refused to do it an
:08:29. > :08:32.interview with a particular reporter. If they want to bring
:08:32. > :08:37.their editor along, I would be happy to do an interview at any
:08:37. > :08:41.time at all. We will not go into individuals.
:08:41. > :08:50.Looking at the end of this month there will be a major strike of the
:08:50. > :08:54.public services, members of local government staff, they should make
:08:54. > :08:57.a net -- extra contribution to their pension contributions, why
:08:57. > :09:03.have you say your face against that was collared have gone down this
:09:03. > :09:06.road? Wales haven't and England haven't. It is not an easy issue.
:09:06. > :09:09.It is whether you pick out one section of the public sector
:09:09. > :09:14.workers and safe they should have a separate and better deal than
:09:14. > :09:19.everybody else. There is also the issue of parity with the rest of
:09:19. > :09:23.the attic kingdom. Anything we do that costs money, obviously has to
:09:23. > :09:28.come away from public services. They have a separate, fully funded
:09:28. > :09:32.scheme, but I think there are real dangers if you were to allow the
:09:32. > :09:37.fully funded scheme to go its own direction. It may not be too long
:09:37. > :09:42.before they were looking for public sector funds to prop them up.
:09:42. > :09:47.amongst the lowest paid. Scotland has do give it to do this. Why
:09:47. > :09:51.would you not follow that model? If you compare local government with
:09:51. > :09:56.central government, you will find there is no great distinction
:09:56. > :10:00.amongst, in terms of pay. The issue is a decision, whether you believe
:10:00. > :10:02.there should be a disparity with public sector workers, and whether
:10:03. > :10:06.you believe there should be a breach of parity. The argument has
:10:07. > :10:11.not been successfully made, the Executive was not convinced of the
:10:11. > :10:14.argument, the argument was made Bishop the preferential treatment
:10:14. > :10:19.given to one section of public sector workers, it wasn't one
:10:19. > :10:23.favoured by the Executive. Calls for the resignation of Arlene
:10:23. > :10:27.Foster over her perceived failure to declare an interest in a piece
:10:27. > :10:31.of ground which is being opened up for exploration for gas. Do you
:10:31. > :10:37.support her questions loch of course they do. She has done
:10:37. > :10:42.absolutely nothing wrong. She has said if at any stage the ground
:10:42. > :10:46.which isn't owned by her, but by her husband, ever became the
:10:46. > :10:49.subject of land that was going to be involved in any matter over
:10:49. > :10:54.which she had a decision she would declare that interest. She hasn't
:10:54. > :10:56.got such interest at present. former chairman of the
:10:56. > :11:00.Parliamentary Standards Committee has said she should at least have
:11:00. > :11:04.told her private secretary. I dismiss anything really that
:11:04. > :11:08.Alastair Graham says. He was the chairman of the Parliamentary
:11:08. > :11:12.Standards Committee, Mr Robinson. can understand why it is was, and
:11:12. > :11:16.not his. He complained about everything, a complete whinger.
:11:16. > :11:24.Everybody looking at the matter will say there was absolutely no
:11:24. > :11:28.reason why she should declare an interest. Sinn Fein have lodged a
:11:28. > :11:32.question. Stephen Agnew would be wanting her to resign over the
:11:32. > :11:36.issue over supposed to over the fact her husband owns a piece of
:11:36. > :11:40.land which may or may not in the future become the subject of land
:11:40. > :11:45.that might be used for that purpose. You will be standing by her
:11:45. > :11:48.completely? Why wouldn't I? She has done nothing wrong. People would
:11:48. > :11:52.say she stood up in the Assembly, this matter has been raised, she
:11:52. > :11:55.discussed it, defended it, condemned people opposed to it but
:11:55. > :11:59.all the time there was a small part of land in this licensing area she
:11:59. > :12:06.had any interested. Some people in the interests of transparency, she
:12:06. > :12:10.should be saying I have an interest. She doesn't. Her husband does.
:12:10. > :12:16.has never supported anybody having that particular piece of ground
:12:16. > :12:20.used for that purpose. The issue is whether there is a danger, and she
:12:20. > :12:24.has a particular view, that is very different from being in a position
:12:24. > :12:27.where she is trying to push forward any interest her husband might have.
:12:27. > :12:30.Your message to conference this weekend?
:12:30. > :12:35.The conference will be in very good form. We have had a very good
:12:35. > :12:39.election. We have got stability within the Assembly. Things are
:12:39. > :12:45.looking very positive in terms of us being able to take our agenda
:12:45. > :12:48.forward, but we recognise we have to deal with, festival, the
:12:48. > :12:53.rebuilding of our economy. Hopefully the ability to rebalance
:12:53. > :12:56.our economy, we also have to do with the agenda of an assured
:12:56. > :13:01.society and that is something we are determined to take the
:13:01. > :13:05.performance. A meeting with David Cameron in the near future? I met
:13:05. > :13:08.him on many occasions, when I need to I am sure I will ask for a
:13:08. > :13:17.meeting but I haven't asked for one so I cannot expect to get one.
:13:17. > :13:20.So we are big and getting bigger. As if the economic prognosis wasn't
:13:20. > :13:24.bad enough, we are assured of an epidemic of obesity. And none of us
:13:24. > :13:28.are going to be able to afford to pay for our own care when we are
:13:28. > :13:31.old and fat and nodding by the fire, which won't be lit anyway because
:13:31. > :13:34.the winter fuel allowance has been cut. The conventional jibe against
:13:34. > :13:37.health promotion is that people don't change their habits. It's a
:13:38. > :13:40.nanny state that tries to tell them to. The solution a scheming Cameron
:13:41. > :13:47.probably favours is to privatise as much of the health service as
:13:47. > :13:49.possible before the masses waddle in and smother the whole system.
:13:49. > :13:52.The big issue, in standard poltiical thinking, is the question
:13:52. > :13:57.of individual responsibiity versus the right or power of government to
:13:57. > :13:59.make us change our ways. So on the one side we have the darker
:14:00. > :14:02.traditional conservatives telling us all our problems are our own
:14:03. > :14:08.responsibility, and on the other we have big state liberals who would
:14:08. > :14:12.imagine the state can do everything for us. Could we not just settle
:14:13. > :14:16.the old argument by looking at what works? We are surrounded by
:14:16. > :14:21.evidence that people do change. Martin McGuinness used to be happy
:14:21. > :14:25.to sleep on the floor in a safe house. Only the best of hotels for
:14:25. > :14:28.republicans now when they travel. Well, it's a change. I grew up in a
:14:28. > :14:32.working class area among thousands of people who went on to get jobs
:14:32. > :14:36.as lawyers and social workers and moved out to the Malone Road. Some
:14:36. > :14:40.of them even changed the way they spoke. Now they insist on their
:14:40. > :14:43.skinny lattes as if that is what they were nurtured on. Still, walk
:14:43. > :14:46.down the Shankill or the Falls and you see people queuing up outside
:14:46. > :14:50.chippies for their dinner and the chemist for their tranquilisers and
:14:50. > :14:53.laxatives. And a lot of people stopped smoking. When Brian
:14:53. > :14:57.Faulkner and Gerry Fitt entered political negotiations, they did so
:14:57. > :15:01.with ashtrays on the table. Strangely, more women smoke now and
:15:01. > :15:05.that's a change too, and they have more lung cancers than men have.
:15:05. > :15:09.And look at the number of bicycles in Belfast now. Cycling to work
:15:09. > :15:13.used to be a mark of poverty but today we have cycling MLAs. Conor
:15:13. > :15:17.Murphy cycled the length of Ireland this summer. There are rumours that
:15:17. > :15:20.Peter Robinson has been spotted in lycra shorts. People change their
:15:20. > :15:23.ways when motivated by tax cuts, by new circles of friends and
:15:23. > :15:27.colleagues, improvements in the environment around them.
:15:27. > :15:30.Imaginative measures by government can change what people do. Tax cuts
:15:31. > :15:34.are what prompted the new cycling revolution; if you have a job now
:15:34. > :15:39.you can get your bike for half price under the Cycle to Work
:15:39. > :15:43.scheme. When they extend it to the civil service, I hope they hire
:15:43. > :15:46.someone who rides a bike to design the new cycle lanes they'll need on
:15:46. > :15:48.the Newtownards Road. Our ministers mustn't swallow the cliches about
:15:48. > :15:52.how intractable and stupid the masses are and how they mustn't
:15:53. > :15:55.nanny them. Rather they should start with the horrific fact that
:15:55. > :16:05.the poor die younger and start thinking about what can practically
:16:05. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:12.The thoughts of Malachi O'Doherty. With the public sector facing cuts
:16:12. > :16:16.some of our councils are accusing Stormont of trying to save money by
:16:16. > :16:18.dumping legal responsibilities on to them. For example, under the new
:16:18. > :16:20.Animal Welfare Act the responsibility for dealing with
:16:20. > :16:24.cruelty to domestic animals will shortly be handed over to the
:16:24. > :16:28.councils. Are they ready for it? Julia Paul's report contains
:16:28. > :16:34.pictures that some people may find upsetting.
:16:34. > :16:39.It was one of the worst cases the USPCA had to deal with last year.
:16:39. > :16:44.Around 70 horses found in an appalling condition on a farm in
:16:44. > :16:50.Mullusk. They were rescued and with help from other sanctuaries taken
:16:50. > :16:54.to shelters or rehomed. But it cost the charity alone more than �15,000.
:16:54. > :16:59.However, come the spring your rates could be paying for operations like
:16:59. > :17:04.this. Basically the job that the USPCA was doing for free is now
:17:04. > :17:10.going to cost the rate payer. would be delighted to employ three
:17:10. > :17:14.or four extra people in our council, if this was properly organised and
:17:14. > :17:18.properly financed. But we don't believe that it is. Councils are
:17:19. > :17:22.seriously concerned by the tactics being employed from central
:17:22. > :17:24.Government, pushing an awful lot of legislation on to local authorities
:17:24. > :17:30.because they haven't got the resources to deal with it
:17:30. > :17:35.themselves. Currently, the police are responsible for animal welfare.
:17:35. > :17:40.They delegate some powers to the USPCA to help with prosecutions and
:17:40. > :17:45.to care for and rehome the animals seized. But in February Stormont
:17:45. > :17:49.passed the Animal welfare Act. The Act has improved protection for
:17:49. > :17:53.animals, but changed it's way it's enforced. From next April, when it
:17:53. > :17:56.comes to farmed animals, the Department of Agriculture will be
:17:56. > :18:00.responsible, while the responsibility for companion
:18:00. > :18:05.animals or pets will go to Northern Ireland's 26 local councils. But
:18:05. > :18:12.the Act also designates horses as companion animals, and the funding?
:18:12. > :18:16.Well, the �760,000 a year to be shared among the 26 councils.
:18:16. > :18:19.Dungannon council council, like all local authorities, already deals
:18:19. > :18:25.with dog licensing but animal welfare is an entirely new
:18:25. > :18:31.challenge. We feel it's been probably underestimated and USPCA,
:18:31. > :18:37.for example, have indicated that the cost in their view could be one
:18:37. > :18:42.and a half million over the next 12 months. Set aside is half that
:18:42. > :18:46.amount for 26 councils, so that's a concern. Alan Burke says the new
:18:46. > :18:50.responsibility couldn't have come at a worse time. This council have
:18:50. > :18:54.not increased their rates for the last two years and we'd hope to
:18:54. > :19:00.continue that trend, but it's proving very difficult when issues
:19:00. > :19:03.such as this come along. Dungannon is a town that's struggling, all
:19:03. > :19:05.towns are struggling to keep businesses going and people
:19:05. > :19:09.employed. That's our driving concern as a council, not to be
:19:09. > :19:13.taken on issues which we feel should have been dealt with within
:19:13. > :19:16.other departments. Well, one of those others is the Department of
:19:16. > :19:21.Agriculture. The Minister was unavailable but we were able to
:19:21. > :19:23.speak to a senior civil servant. The department has made available
:19:23. > :19:27.funding based on our best estimate of what the likely costs are going
:19:27. > :19:31.to be to the council to implement that so there should not be an
:19:31. > :19:35.impact on rate-payers. However, if there are resourced pressures and
:19:35. > :19:38.if the councils find that they're taking all best steps to deal with
:19:38. > :19:40.those resource pressures but finding it difficult, the Minister
:19:40. > :19:46.will be prepared to meet with them to discuss how best those can be
:19:46. > :19:54.addressed. But some councillors still feel that they've, well, been
:19:54. > :19:58.sold a pup. We are talking �750,000 and if we take that at 26 councils,
:19:58. > :20:07.it's really �29 per council and even with the movement to 11
:20:07. > :20:17.councils, it's still �68,000 per council. To supply 24-hour cover,
:20:17. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:26.seven days per week would mean at least three employees. An Omagh An.
:20:26. > :20:31.The executive seem to be happy to dump anything they don't really
:20:31. > :20:36.want and put the expense on the rate-payer and really it leaves it
:20:36. > :20:41.that the local councils will be carrying the can, rather than the
:20:41. > :20:45.executive in Stormont. And he is not the only one. Councils are
:20:46. > :20:49.seriously concerned by the tactics being employed from central
:20:49. > :20:51.Government, pushing an awful lot of legislation on to local authorities
:20:51. > :20:55.because they haven't got the resources to deal with it
:20:55. > :20:59.themselves. And that is a huge concern to councils. At the last
:20:59. > :21:03.count there was something like 50- 60 pieces of legislation that are
:21:03. > :21:08.set to come our way with huge resource implications. Of course,
:21:08. > :21:10.Stormont doesn't see it like that. And the Northern Ireland Local
:21:10. > :21:17.Government Association says councils are working together to
:21:17. > :21:20.find the best way of delivering the new responsibilities. But NILGA
:21:20. > :21:24.wants the Department of Agriculture to reclassify horses as farm
:21:24. > :21:28.animals. The PSNI says it's firmly committed to working with a range
:21:28. > :21:33.of partners to promote the welfare of all animals. Hyped the political
:21:34. > :21:38.arguments are the animals themselves, this is the USPCA
:21:38. > :21:40.shelter in Bessbrook. It's purpose- built for all the the animals
:21:40. > :21:44.they've encountered in the decades they've spent promoting animal
:21:44. > :21:48.welfare. We are absolutely delighted that 22 years after I
:21:48. > :21:53.took up the post when no one was responsible for animal welfare,
:21:53. > :21:59.only the USPCA, we have three Government agencies all charged
:21:59. > :22:02.legally with looking after animals, plus a budget of �760,000. All we
:22:02. > :22:05.are saying it's a large amount of money, we don't want it going on
:22:05. > :22:09.paper clips or water coolers. We want it going on the animals. So
:22:09. > :22:12.it's nothing to do with the USPCA fighting for their fair share. It's
:22:12. > :22:15.about what's happening to the money, who is going to do the work and
:22:15. > :22:20.will the animals be looked after properly?
:22:20. > :22:24.And that's a key question for animals like these. Is the
:22:24. > :22:27.Department of Agriculture confident that animal welfare will not suffer
:22:27. > :22:31.under these new arrangements? are working very closely with the
:22:31. > :22:34.councils to ensure they're ready for implementation. We have
:22:34. > :22:39.submitted a spending plan to us, they've appointed a lead council to
:22:39. > :22:43.develop their plans and we are as confident as we can be that the
:22:43. > :22:46.councils will be ready to implement from 1st April. Julia Paul
:22:46. > :22:49.reporting. A cynic said Oscar Wilde is a man
:22:49. > :22:52.who knows the price of everything and value of nothing. According to
:22:52. > :22:57.my next guest the same could be said about mainstream economists.
:22:57. > :23:01.Dr Marilyn Waring is a proponent of feminist economics. She believes
:23:01. > :23:06.the market economy is distorted by ignoring the value of the invisible
:23:06. > :23:09.work done predominantly by women. She says time should be the new
:23:09. > :23:14.currency. And Dr Waring is here to explain more. You are very welcome.
:23:14. > :23:17.Putting a value on invisible work, I assume we are talking about
:23:17. > :23:20.household work, chores?. These are things that no one wants to do,
:23:20. > :23:25.even the people doing them don't want to be doing them. How can they
:23:25. > :23:30.be said - how can they be given a value in the sense of what we
:23:30. > :23:36.normally accept to be economic value? Well, we are not talking
:23:36. > :23:39.about estimating monetary values but I have to say the unpaid
:23:39. > :23:44.worksphere is far greater, it involves a great deal of voluntary
:23:44. > :23:51.and community work and there's plenty of that in Northern Ireland.
:23:51. > :23:55.It involves informal work, which sometimes is reimmunerated, often
:23:55. > :23:59.not. A lot of subsistence work, which would mean, for example,
:23:59. > :24:02.somebody - well, children who grow up on a farm and don't get paid for
:24:02. > :24:11.getting the eggs, feeding calves, looking after the lambs. Of course
:24:11. > :24:17.that's a range of unpaid work. And then household work, provisioning
:24:17. > :24:24.the household, unpaid care of 24-7 dependents of the household who may
:24:24. > :24:28.be elderly, who may be children, who may be kropbically disabled --
:24:28. > :24:31.chronically disabled. It's the single largest sector usually in
:24:31. > :24:35.any nation's economy. It is also life, it's things you have to do to
:24:35. > :24:39.make life work? It's not the thing everybody has to do but it has to
:24:39. > :24:45.be done for the market to work. And if it weren't there the market
:24:45. > :24:49.couldn't work at all because of course, the market depends on this
:24:49. > :24:54.unpaid replenishment of what some people call social capital to keep
:24:55. > :24:58.operating. And it's a distortion, let me give you something that's
:24:58. > :25:02.going on in loads of western economies at the moment. So, you
:25:02. > :25:07.think we have to cut back so we are going to cut back in health and one
:25:07. > :25:11.of the ways we are going to do that is discharge people from hospitals
:25:11. > :25:14.earlier on the basis there's a presumption of large numbers of
:25:14. > :25:21.people sitting about out there with nothing better to do, than to care
:25:21. > :25:26.for the patients who are being discharged. There's a whole range
:25:26. > :25:30.of strategic policy that is foregone and the expectation that
:25:30. > :25:34.the sector of the economy will pick it up. On the health issue, we are
:25:34. > :25:37.go to go through a major review which will talk about putting
:25:37. > :25:41.resources into that community care and getting people away from
:25:41. > :25:46.hospitals, for example. So, is that what you mean by distorting the
:25:46. > :25:50.economy, that we should be thinking more about how to fund these areas?
:25:50. > :25:57.No, because that's about service provision in the community as
:25:57. > :26:01.opposed to Government or local Government. At the very end of that
:26:01. > :26:06.spectrum the immediate members of families who for centuries have
:26:06. > :26:09.taken care of those who would otherwise be institutionalised, in
:26:09. > :26:15.New Zealand I can give you a very good example. If a member of a
:26:15. > :26:18.family has a brain injury that then requires full-time care, in an
:26:18. > :26:23.accident because of an accident insurance scheme the immediate
:26:23. > :26:30.member of the household who needs to care for them is paid, has
:26:30. > :26:35.respite care, gets holidays, has safe conditions of employment. If
:26:35. > :26:39.through a disease a member of the household similarly is affected and
:26:39. > :26:44.needs that care, the immediate family member is just expected to
:26:44. > :26:48.carry on and at that point has no safe conditions of employment, has
:26:48. > :26:55.no respite, has no payment. But there's another part of the economy
:26:55. > :26:59.that I have to talk about here, too. Because the unpaid service work of
:26:59. > :27:07.the environment has no value at all, either. If you think to yourself
:27:07. > :27:11.these are constantly left out of strategic policy budget allocations,
:27:11. > :27:16.strategic policy interventions. Also in a system where anything
:27:16. > :27:21.that goes into the market actually counts, so drug running, gun-
:27:21. > :27:24.running, prostitution, all of those things apparently good for growth.
:27:24. > :27:27.While sustaining the environment, or taking care in our household
:27:27. > :27:33.doesn't. What different kind of decisions would governments have to
:27:34. > :27:38.take if these things were given a value? Well, the first thing they'd
:27:38. > :27:41.have to do is look at different characteristics and assess them
:27:41. > :27:49.altogether and I have been a member of the New Zealand parliament so I
:27:49. > :27:53.know that people prefer uni- dimensional growth statistics. But
:27:53. > :27:56.if you have in front of you time use in terms of where people spend
:27:56. > :27:59.their time and production that isn't part of the market, if you
:27:59. > :28:03.have in front of you what is happening to the physical
:28:03. > :28:07.characteristics of our environment and you also have in front of you
:28:07. > :28:11.here is what the market is reporting, including some pretty
:28:11. > :28:14.path logical things that are worth a lot in the market, then you make
:28:14. > :28:18.decisions across the whole three. But it's always much easier I found
:28:18. > :28:22.from my colleagues just to go for broke on one. Are you a lone voice
:28:22. > :28:25.in this wilderness? I was about 20 years ago, but thankfully I am not
:28:25. > :28:28.any more. Thank you very much indeed.
:28:28. > :28:38.And that's where we have to leave it this time. We will do it again
:28:38. > :28:44.
:28:44. > :28:48.next week at the usual time. I hope All right, Noel. Know what I need a
:28:48. > :28:51.really good discussion about politics. Some carry on this week.
:28:51. > :28:55.In times of recession we all need to look after the pennies but there
:28:55. > :28:58.are bargains out there. For �20,000 the head of Northern Ireland water
:28:58. > :29:05.has agreed to do the job he's already well paid to do. Thanks,
:29:05. > :29:12.Trevor. But I still might stockpile water just in case and for �50 you
:29:12. > :29:17.can get the - it will be like going to see Santa. You tell Edwin what
:29:17. > :29:22.you want for Christmas and he will refer you. The economy is as stable