:00:23. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week:
:00:26. > :00:30.Does the Shadow Secretary think the coalition's policies are bearing
:00:30. > :00:36.fruit in Northern Ireland? Can the UUP continue to reject the
:00:36. > :00:39.loving overtures from the DUP? And despite opposition in the Lords,
:00:39. > :00:49.will strong public support allow the Government to brush off the
:00:49. > :00:50.
:00:50. > :00:53.The Shadow Secretary of State is in town for a regular update and
:00:53. > :01:03.Vernon Coaker is with me for his first visit to the programme since
:01:03. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:10.his accession last autumn. It would seem in these days of
:01:10. > :01:16.devolution and the like that your job would be one of the most
:01:16. > :01:25.interesting. Since I have taken office I have gone out of my way to
:01:25. > :01:31.come to Northern Ireland to speak to people. There are still a lot of
:01:31. > :01:35.decisions that are made in London at about tax and spend and welfare.
:01:35. > :01:39.I want to be an informed voice for Northern Ireland in London, but I
:01:39. > :01:44.have to do that by coming here. Finance Minister has been painting
:01:44. > :01:48.a rosy picture of the Northern Ireland economy. We have good
:01:48. > :01:57.direct foreign investment and have not lost all the jobs people said
:01:57. > :02:04.we would lose and the public sector. Everything seems to be pretty good.
:02:04. > :02:07.There is a lot of grounds for hope. What would you change? Well, last
:02:07. > :02:13.year I went to a conference about the Northern Ireland tourist
:02:13. > :02:18.industry. Things were looking good, but we need to look at the issues
:02:18. > :02:25.that concern people because there will be some job losses, the
:02:25. > :02:30.welfare reform policies will take money from Northern Ireland. There
:02:30. > :02:35.are issues. So, Sammy Wilson seen the work through rose-tinted
:02:35. > :02:38.glasses? And not at all. He wants to paint a picture of Northern
:02:38. > :02:48.Ireland that is positive. Alongside that we have to raise issues about
:02:48. > :02:49.
:02:49. > :02:58.welfare, problems that face families with children with
:02:58. > :03:05.disabilities. We are seeing money taken our of capital. The coalition
:03:05. > :03:13.would say because of the financial situation at the Labour government
:03:13. > :03:22.landed us in, but what would you change? The overall strategy of the
:03:23. > :03:26.government is to cut too far and too quickly. There are issues and
:03:26. > :03:30.there are difficulties. One of the things we have set as a positive
:03:30. > :03:37.step forward is we could have a plan for jobs and growth. One of
:03:37. > :03:40.the ways of doing that is to have a temporary cut in VAT to bring
:03:40. > :03:47.investment projects, to have National Insurance holidays for
:03:47. > :03:51.small businesses and to do other things like creating schemes for
:03:51. > :03:56.the young unemployed. A lot of things can be done to help. The as
:03:56. > :04:00.well be done on a national level? Of course. The VAT rate is
:04:00. > :04:04.something set at Westminster. That is an example of the decisions
:04:04. > :04:08.taken in London that in pack Northern Ireland. Would you give
:04:08. > :04:14.Northern Ireland more? Certainly in Northern Ireland would have done
:04:14. > :04:19.better under the economic strategy had we been in government. We said
:04:19. > :04:22.the deficit is being reduced to quickly. The consequence of that is
:04:22. > :04:26.Northern Ireland will lose �4 billion over the next few years.
:04:26. > :04:30.But what you have given us? would have been a matter of looking
:04:30. > :04:35.at the box, but what I am saying is that clearly Northern Ireland would
:04:35. > :04:42.have done better under a Labour government. If you should win the
:04:42. > :04:50.election in 2015, you would increase the Northern Ireland block
:04:50. > :04:54.grant? When we get to 2015, during the run-up to the election, or we
:04:54. > :04:57.will need to look at what is happening. We do not know where we
:04:57. > :05:03.will be in three years' time. people say we are enduring the
:05:03. > :05:06.worst crisis for generations. Many would say it cannot get worse, so
:05:06. > :05:11.it it even now you are say you would have given Northern Ireland
:05:11. > :05:16.more money, surely you can say that in a few years you will give us
:05:16. > :05:22.more money? Be could get worse. Unemployment is rising, businesses
:05:22. > :05:26.are closing. It could get worse. is easy to sit in Opposition and
:05:26. > :05:31.say, we will give you more. What we have done is to say there are
:05:31. > :05:37.choices the government makes that impacts the UK and Northern Ireland
:05:37. > :05:42.economy. They make the choice to raise VAT and not tax the bankers
:05:42. > :05:52.in the way we would have done. Even in an austerity budget, you can
:05:52. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:03.make choices that are fair to everyone. Will the private sector
:06:03. > :06:09.proper job lost and the public sector? Well, the impact it is
:06:09. > :06:14.having to pretend that what the government is doing his a strategy
:06:14. > :06:19.for jobs and growth when clearly all we are seeing is a decline in
:06:19. > :06:27.growth, as we have seen in the UK... At but not so bad in Northern
:06:27. > :06:30.Ireland. Manufacturing output is growing up -- going up. There have
:06:30. > :06:38.been good figures in Northern Ireland and it is something to be
:06:38. > :06:46.pleased about. However, one in five young people are out of work.
:06:46. > :06:50.not the same in the UK? More or less. We need to do something to
:06:50. > :06:56.help the young people and that is where some of the difficulty arises
:06:56. > :07:00.with the government's welfare reforms. Given the Cup thats in
:07:00. > :07:07.Westminster, is the Executive going the right way? By the Assembly are
:07:07. > :07:12.trying to do is in that sense act as a shield, to do the best they
:07:12. > :07:17.can. My job is to be a voice for Northern Ireland to support them
:07:17. > :07:20.and protect the interests of Northern Ireland and its people.
:07:20. > :07:25.The secretary of state a win Patterson is concentrating on
:07:25. > :07:29.legacy issues, have to do with the past. What is your big idea?
:07:29. > :07:34.secretary of state was given a way forward when the Assembly said what
:07:34. > :07:38.they wanted him to do was to facilitate all party talks on try
:07:38. > :07:43.to find a way forward. They did not asking to find a solution, they
:07:43. > :07:52.asked him to facilitate talks which would allow... Are thought he asked
:07:52. > :07:59.them? Well, maybe, but they asked him to facilitate talks. He has
:07:59. > :08:04.written to them on a bilateral basis asking for individual talks.
:08:04. > :08:08.Do you have an idea? I would have facilitated all party talks and I
:08:08. > :08:12.would have looked to see what the role of the victims and survivors
:08:12. > :08:17.would have been in that process. you think it is possible to come up
:08:17. > :08:20.with the way that will satisfy all those conflicting interests? So in
:08:20. > :08:24.that fantastic progress made in the last few years in Northern Ireland.
:08:24. > :08:29.People many years ago may have said that progress would have been
:08:29. > :08:32.impossible. In the end, people look at difficult issues and they come
:08:32. > :08:39.to conclusions to find a way forward. It is possible, but it
:08:39. > :08:43.would be difficult. But you don't have a single big idea? The
:08:43. > :08:46.Secretary of State is talking about eight documentary archive. A I do
:08:46. > :08:50.not want to come up with a good idea and say, this is what you
:08:50. > :08:55.should do. It is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to do
:08:55. > :09:02.that. What is important is the Secretary of State having been
:09:02. > :09:09.asked to facilitate talks, it I were him, I would be facilitating
:09:09. > :09:12.those talks. What of your party colleagues Peter Hain is in trouble
:09:12. > :09:16.with the Lord Chief Justice at the comments he made in his
:09:16. > :09:19.autobiography over the appointment of a senior judge. Do you think
:09:19. > :09:25.Peter Hain is in very deep water? What Peter Hain said is a matter
:09:25. > :09:32.for him. We all respect the independence of the judiciary and
:09:32. > :09:38.respect the work they do. Is he out of order? Well, Peter Hain...
:09:38. > :09:43.he out of order? He has made his comments. I don't know what
:09:43. > :09:46.happened, but I know the independence of the judiciary is an
:09:46. > :09:51.important matter of principle for us all and I have great confidence
:09:51. > :09:59.in it. And you don't want to get involved? I do not know what
:09:59. > :10:05.happens... You thought he was off his rocker! All I know is that the
:10:05. > :10:15.Northern Ireland judiciary is a proud part of the system and its
:10:15. > :10:19.
:10:19. > :10:22.independence must be maintained. Well, here we are. A couple of
:10:22. > :10:25.weeks away from St Valentine's Day and the air is already thick with
:10:25. > :10:28.the whoosh and thud of Cupid's arrows and the penning of anonymous
:10:28. > :10:30.sweet nothings. Peter Robinson has taken a blunter, more public
:10:30. > :10:33.approach, sending his card courtesy of a television interview:
:10:33. > :10:36."Oh Tom, recall our former glories. So let's have a snog, now you've
:10:36. > :10:39.dumped the Tories." OK, it's not up there with Byron
:10:39. > :10:42.and Shakespeare, but the sentiment is the same. And he's taken the
:10:42. > :10:46.precaution of sending it in a Leap Year, which is a good thing, since
:10:46. > :10:48.it usually takes the UUP about four years to make up its mind about any
:10:48. > :10:52.invitation. The problem with the UUP is that it
:10:52. > :10:55.is very difficult to keep up with the plot. First it was a fling with
:10:55. > :10:58.the Conservatives. Then an up- market menage a trois with the
:10:58. > :11:01.Conservatives and DUP at Hatfield House, with a bit of Orange slap
:11:01. > :11:03.and tickle below stairs. Then back to the Conservatives, before the
:11:03. > :11:05.suggestion of a wife-swapping session with the SDLP on the
:11:05. > :11:08.Opposition benches. Then "yes" to the Conservatives,
:11:08. > :11:11.followed by a final "no" and now a raising of the skirt and fluttering
:11:11. > :11:14.of the eyelashes at the DUP. It's a wonderfully bizarre soap-opera with
:11:14. > :11:16.props tumbling and key members of the cast struggling to remember
:11:16. > :11:19.with whom they are having their latest affair.
:11:19. > :11:22.Meanwhile the local Conservatives are doing their best to convince us
:11:22. > :11:24.that they are relevant again. Not an easy thing when you have no
:11:24. > :11:29.elected representatives and less obvious appeal than the Hunchback
:11:29. > :11:32.Of Notre Dame at a swingers party. Having been here for 23 years, they
:11:32. > :11:35.have become like one of those 'noticed only from the corner of
:11:35. > :11:39.your eye' trolley patients you don't quite see in Casualty or
:11:39. > :11:43.Holby. No matter how many times the crash team is called, or how many
:11:43. > :11:46.volts are pumped into the body, you always know that a sheet will be
:11:46. > :11:48.pulled over the face as they are wheeled into the morgue against the
:11:48. > :11:50.background noise of a flat-lining heart detector.
:11:50. > :11:53.Apparently, they are re-launching themselves again in early spring as
:11:53. > :11:55.the 'Utterly Butterly, I Can't Believe It's Not The Same Old
:11:55. > :11:59.Conservative Party' Party, chock-a- block with UUP defectors who didn't
:11:59. > :12:03.manage to get selected or elected under their old colours.
:12:03. > :12:06.You have to admire their chutzpah. Weeks ago Central Office was
:12:06. > :12:10.planning to disband them altogether and fold them into a new
:12:10. > :12:14.organisation in which they would be swamped by the UUP. Yet they now
:12:14. > :12:18.have to pretend that a solo run was what they wanted all along.
:12:18. > :12:20.Maybe David Trimble was right. If Tom Elliott had done a Mr Del Monte
:12:20. > :12:23.and said yes, then the NI Conservatives would have vanished
:12:23. > :12:27.overnight and not been missed until a sacrificial candidate was
:12:27. > :12:29.required for West Belfast or Foyle. Mind you, being accused of
:12:30. > :12:34.political stupidity by David Trimble is a bit like being accused
:12:34. > :12:36.of pomposity by David Ford. Anyway, both the UUP and the newly
:12:36. > :12:41.self-styled Northern Irish Conservatives face huge hurdles if
:12:41. > :12:44.they are to survive. They are less like real teams or even subs on the
:12:44. > :12:47.electoral benches and more like spectators in the stands. And even
:12:47. > :12:50.at that, I'm not convinced that either of them any longer
:12:50. > :12:53.understands the game being played, let alone the rules.
:12:53. > :12:56.There is a non-voting, pro-Union constituency out there that could
:12:57. > :12:59.be tapped into. I suspect, however, that the UUP and Conservatives,
:13:00. > :13:02.singly and collectively, have left it too late and made too many
:13:02. > :13:05.mistakes to make the necessary impact on it. Leaving this question
:13:05. > :13:15.- who will re-engage the growing numbers of politically and
:13:15. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:21.electorally disinterested? thought of Alex Kane. We have
:13:21. > :13:27.already heard how Peter Hain's or Prost -- autobiography has got him
:13:27. > :13:37.into hot water, but it does give insight into the peace process and
:13:37. > :13:38.
:13:38. > :13:41.about the politicians he had to In 2005 the peace process was
:13:41. > :13:44.faltering and the job of Secretary of State was back to being seen as
:13:44. > :13:49.a poisoned chalice. What sort of tactics did you have to use to put
:13:49. > :13:54.pressure on the party's to try and get them to work together? It was
:13:54. > :13:58.very difficult. People had been used to saying no on both sides.
:13:58. > :14:03.The public were saying, why should they continue to get these expenses
:14:03. > :14:07.and have their salaries paid? I deployed that argument. The water
:14:07. > :14:11.charges and some of the other reforms I introduced, I did them
:14:11. > :14:15.because I believed that why should my constituents in Wales or for
:14:15. > :14:19.that matter residents in Scotland or England their water charges but
:14:19. > :14:23.Northern Ireland residents not? Introducing that, I was well aware,
:14:23. > :14:26.and deliberately used it as a tactic to say, the solution is in
:14:26. > :14:33.your hands. You get your politicians into government and
:14:33. > :14:36.they can abolish them. Two years later the tactics have paid off. On
:14:36. > :14:41.7th May, 2007, the world came to watch as the assembly finally
:14:42. > :14:45.returned to Stormont. But did Peter Hain get the credit he deserved?
:14:45. > :14:52.Others had worked very hard over the years, especially Tony Blair
:14:52. > :14:57.and Bertie Ahern. It's for others to judge. Many thought I didn't but
:14:57. > :15:02.I'm not... It's not for me to say really. All I know was what people
:15:02. > :15:06.closely involved, including journalists and observers at the
:15:06. > :15:10.time said to me and said elsewhere that they don't think it would have
:15:10. > :15:14.been achieved on that timescale, had I not been in the job at the
:15:14. > :15:18.time. I felt it was the one thing that I'd done in government that I
:15:18. > :15:26.felt most proud of. But they have been no settlement without the
:15:26. > :15:31.politicians here. So what were they like to work with? In his book,
:15:31. > :15:34.Outside In, Peter Hain describes Ian Paisley as a real gentleman
:15:34. > :15:39.with old-fashioned manners. Mark Durkan was a talented leader with
:15:39. > :15:45.an enviable facility for phrase- making. In meetings, Gerry Adams
:15:45. > :15:49.and Martin McGuinness sometimes played good cop bad cop. And David
:15:49. > :15:54.Ford was pernickety and quick to take offence. The real show in town
:15:54. > :15:57.was Sinn Fein and the DUP. There was resentment about that from the
:15:57. > :16:00.Alliance Party also much the same kind of crumbling came from the
:16:00. > :16:05.SDLP, because they too were like the Ulster Unionists, on the
:16:05. > :16:09.margins of the big picture. You've described Ian Paisley as an old-
:16:09. > :16:13.fashioned gentleman. Yet that you doesn't chime with the many people
:16:13. > :16:16.who think he holds some responsibility for the Troubles.
:16:16. > :16:23.understand the point but dealing with him on a one-to-one basis was
:16:23. > :16:26.a joy. He's a lovely man to talk to. Where they are times when you found
:16:26. > :16:33.him difficult to work with? course I found him difficult to
:16:33. > :16:39.work with. Partly because he was a prisoner of both his own past and
:16:39. > :16:45.important elements in the DUP who didn't want him. All were very
:16:45. > :16:51.reluctant. He was at times very slow and then at times very
:16:51. > :16:56.courageous and fast. In the end, he left over his party to the anxiety
:16:56. > :17:00.and nervousness and opposition and criticism of some of the DUP banks,
:17:00. > :17:04.to make this courageous leap. I don't think anybody else in
:17:04. > :17:09.Unionism could have done that. it wasn't just the Unionists that
:17:09. > :17:12.have to be brought to the table. What effect did the northern bank
:17:12. > :17:18.robbery and the murder of Robert McCartney have on your dealings
:17:18. > :17:23.with Sinn Fein? I remember saying to Gerry Adams wants, referring to
:17:23. > :17:29.the northern bank robbery, he dismissed it and said the IRA and
:17:29. > :17:32.Sinn Fein had nothing to do with that. The kind of jocularly chided
:17:32. > :17:42.me for saying, you were falsely accused of a bank theft once, this
:17:42. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:47.was a bizarre 1975 bank theft that the South African security services
:17:47. > :17:51.said. He and I knew those cases were very different. Did you find
:17:51. > :17:55.it hard to trust Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, given the
:17:55. > :18:00.general belief of the IRA's involvement in those two issues?
:18:00. > :18:05.Well, they once said to me, we never trust anyone, Secretary of
:18:05. > :18:08.State, we never trust any British politician. I understand that. If
:18:08. > :18:12.you can build a trust where if you shake hands on an agreement,
:18:12. > :18:15.however difficult it has been, they know that you will deliver and you
:18:15. > :18:19.know that they will deliver. It's that kind of trust. I didn't find
:18:20. > :18:23.any problem with Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams. On the contrary,
:18:23. > :18:28.they kept their word. It was this image that went around the world
:18:28. > :18:34.and signalled the peace deal in 2007. But Peter Hain says even the
:18:34. > :18:37.picture wasn't easy to achieve. sums up the difficult politics of
:18:37. > :18:41.Northern Ireland. Ian Paisley would not sit on the same side of the
:18:41. > :18:46.table next to Gerry Adams. Gerry Adams wanted to. We wanted be
:18:46. > :18:52.historic picture, which we got, of the two of them together. So we had
:18:52. > :18:57.an arrangement whereby a table was diamond shaped so that Ian Paisley
:18:57. > :19:00.was on the left-hand side facing them, and Gerry Adams was on the
:19:00. > :19:05.right-hand side of it. All the world they were sitting next to
:19:05. > :19:11.each other and were photographed as such but Ian Paisley's principles
:19:11. > :19:14.were protected and so were Gerry Adams'. The intimate thoughts of
:19:14. > :19:17.the former Secretary of State, Peter Hain. The Government's
:19:17. > :19:21.proposed welfare reforms have provoked the fiercest debate. At
:19:21. > :19:23.one end of the spectrum we have disgusted of Surbiton, who thinks
:19:24. > :19:27.every benefit claimant is it cheap and should be punished. At the
:19:27. > :19:31.other, the beating heart offering visions of homeless children around
:19:31. > :19:39.the country. Hearts and Minds is only for enlightened, rational
:19:39. > :19:42.debate, so let's have some with Les Allamby and Graham Gudgin. Les
:19:42. > :19:46.Allamby, the government does seem to feel it has widespread public
:19:46. > :19:49.support for these reforms. It seems to be able to laugh off the
:19:49. > :19:53.criticisms from the Lords and from others. Do you think that's the
:19:53. > :19:57.case? I think they've got some popular support but I think that is
:19:57. > :20:01.popular support based on a gross misconception. That is the notion
:20:01. > :20:06.that somehow a very large numbers of people get a great deal of money
:20:06. > :20:10.on benefit. If you look at the Cap, 60 % of the people affected by the
:20:10. > :20:13.cap live in London. That's because of high housing costs. In order for
:20:13. > :20:17.this cacti have some impact in Northern Ireland, you are going to
:20:17. > :20:21.have to have a very considerable number of children, possibly be a
:20:22. > :20:25.carer and getting carers benefits. Perhaps they should say nothing
:20:25. > :20:29.because they are pretty much going to be OK. The housing cost side
:20:29. > :20:33.will mean the impact will be far less prevalent than London and the
:20:33. > :20:41.south-east. But we have larger families and larger families can
:20:41. > :20:46.have an impact on the cap. David Cameron, I saw him almost playing
:20:46. > :20:49.to the gallery about, well, you wouldn't expect people to get
:20:49. > :20:53.�26,000 on benefit. If you had a number of children, if you had a
:20:53. > :20:56.reasonably high housing costs and if you were a carer looking after
:20:56. > :21:00.your elderly relative, you could find yourself caught by this cap.
:21:00. > :21:03.It doesn't seem to me when you are saving the state money elsewhere
:21:03. > :21:09.that you should be caught by a benefit cap. The vast majority of
:21:09. > :21:15.people don't... Are not better off on benefit than they would be in
:21:15. > :21:21.work. Graham Gudgin, is it just headlined seeking, this cap?
:21:21. > :21:25.probably is politics, it's mainly about London and some other areas
:21:25. > :21:29.in the south-east where rents are very high. The real question there
:21:29. > :21:32.is, it's not a question for Robben Island at all, but the real
:21:32. > :21:37.question is - should you be encouraging or subsidising low
:21:37. > :21:40.income people to live in central London? The government has done
:21:41. > :21:45.this for generations by building council houses there. It seems to
:21:45. > :21:50.me a pretty reprobate step to say, look, anyone unloading comes won't
:21:50. > :21:56.be able to live there. What they're going to have to do is the 20 miles
:21:56. > :21:59.out and commute into to a cleaning job at 6am. As do many middle
:21:59. > :22:05.income families who can't afford to live in the centre of London.
:22:05. > :22:11.do. Do come back to your original question, there is a very strong
:22:11. > :22:16.groundswell of support for reforms to welfare. I think there are so
:22:16. > :22:19.many unfairnesses and disincentives to work in the current system. The
:22:19. > :22:23.new system is trying to iron a lot of that out. I think it will help.
:22:24. > :22:28.It's not such a big revolution as all that in my view, but it's very
:22:28. > :22:36.much a move in the right direction to have a... How do you think this
:22:36. > :22:39.will affect Northern Ireland? People don't work on this. --
:22:39. > :22:44.people have done work on this. It will even out in the way that some
:22:44. > :22:48.people will get more money on benefits and others will get less.
:22:49. > :22:50.On the way in which it will hit Northern Ireland is the disability
:22:50. > :22:55.living allowance, will be have extraordinary large numbers of
:22:55. > :22:58.households claiming that benefit. It's like the disability capital of
:22:58. > :23:03.the UK for some reason. It's very interesting to speculate on why
:23:03. > :23:08.that is. But the government is quite keen that's a separate issue
:23:08. > :23:13.in cutting down the number of beneficiaries there. 185,500
:23:13. > :23:18.claimants of delay in Northern Ireland. Your figures show that.
:23:18. > :23:22.I'm not as sanguine as Graham is about the impact in terms of
:23:22. > :23:27.somehow been evening out and very reasonable. What these changes will
:23:27. > :23:31.do is effectively take about 500 to 600 million out of the economy in
:23:31. > :23:34.terms of benefit cuts. One thing we know about benefit claimants is by
:23:35. > :23:40.and large they spend virtually all their money in the local economy.
:23:40. > :23:44.For example, a single person on jobseeker's allowance gets �67.50.
:23:44. > :23:49.He or she spent that money in the local economy. This is the economic
:23:49. > :23:53.issue as well... Would it get more people into work? It would generate
:23:53. > :23:57.more money for the economy. idea that people are better off in
:23:57. > :24:01.work than out of work, again you need to unpacked back slightly. Yes,
:24:01. > :24:03.generally speaking people are better off in work, both
:24:03. > :24:09.financially and for their well- being. However, we have working
:24:09. > :24:12.poor as well as workless poor. It's important we realise that. With
:24:12. > :24:15.lone-parent, and the research suggests again that while lone
:24:15. > :24:18.parents are better off in work financially, there is a cost of
:24:18. > :24:22.that in terms of how your well- being is, the time you spend in
:24:22. > :24:25.work, what time you have to get up and the morning, there would you
:24:25. > :24:28.have to do. There is a lost them as well. It's not as straightforward
:24:28. > :24:35.as have the same work is good and workless is bad. Do you think in
:24:35. > :24:40.principle that reform is required? Yes. But if we look back, Universal
:24:40. > :24:44.Credit is potentially quite a good concept. It came from a dynamic
:24:44. > :24:47.benefits modelling which the Centre for Social Justice suspend --
:24:47. > :24:50.suggested spending 4 billion on in order to spend to save, and it
:24:50. > :24:55.would pay for itself. The government is prepared to spend 2
:24:55. > :24:58.billion. The problem is we've cut the idea, it's been cut in terms of
:24:58. > :25:03.trying to do it on the cheap. Their bald the simplification that this
:25:03. > :25:07.was designed to do, the work incentives this was designed to
:25:07. > :25:14.have are actually being impacted by saving money. Given we are taking
:25:14. > :25:19.22 billion out of the UK economy from changes before this government,
:25:19. > :25:23.we should have spent the money that dynamic benefits suggested to have
:25:23. > :25:27.on a proper system. You spoke about disincentives to work, but if there
:25:27. > :25:30.aren't any job than what is the point of these reforms?
:25:30. > :25:33.something the Labour government should have done during the good
:25:33. > :25:38.times. The coalition are having to do it under present conditions and
:25:38. > :25:43.it really is the worst time to do it. Beyond that, I think we should
:25:43. > :25:45.have a contract in society and go back what to -- go back to what we
:25:45. > :25:50.had before. All parties agree that we should have full employment,
:25:50. > :25:53.there should be jobs for everybody and there we can put pressure on
:25:53. > :25:57.the social security system. Lords have been making much of the
:25:57. > :26:02.impact of these reforms, the potential impact on children and
:26:02. > :26:05.children in poverty. Do you think that is justified? Absolutely. One
:26:05. > :26:10.of the paradoxes about his coalition government's set of
:26:10. > :26:14.reforms is the Conservative Party is the party of the family and yet
:26:14. > :26:17.we have frozen child benefit for three years, we have made cuts to
:26:17. > :26:21.support and child care for exactly the families who may have steam
:26:21. > :26:25.coming out of their ears after what I've said. In reality, that group
:26:25. > :26:28.of people have been hit badly. If you have a second child you are
:26:28. > :26:32.losing the Sure Start Maternity Grant. The Health and pregnancy
:26:33. > :26:37.Grant is going. Much of the attack is on families, particularly on
:26:37. > :26:40.families on low to middle incomes. It seems to be very strange, the
:26:40. > :26:43.set of targets seem to be strained. We all appear to be in this
:26:43. > :26:46.together as a result of the economic mess we are in. Why the
:26:46. > :26:50.focus is on families and particularly families with young
:26:50. > :26:54.children is beyond me. Child benefit is one of the big
:26:54. > :26:58.controversies. What do you think is going to end up having their?
:26:58. > :27:03.have been in a silly position for a long time, that we give child
:27:03. > :27:06.benefits to very affluent families. This is just recycling money. The
:27:06. > :27:09.ticket of them in tax and give it back in child benefit. Then there
:27:09. > :27:14.are civil servants having jobs in between come administering all of
:27:14. > :27:17.this. There's a lot of sorting out to be done. I do rather agree with
:27:17. > :27:22.lairs. If you look at the Scandinavian countries that have
:27:22. > :27:25.spent a lot more on social security than we do even in the UK, even
:27:25. > :27:30.more than in Northern Ireland, a lot of that is going on child
:27:30. > :27:36.benefit and child care. That is a good investment for society. We
:27:36. > :27:40.should be doing more of it. Let me make the case for child benefit
:27:40. > :27:43.being a universal benefit. I'd be in favour of a more progressive tax
:27:43. > :27:48.system, a more sensible way of bringing in money that was fairer.
:27:48. > :27:51.But the virtue of child benefit being universal is it's very simple,
:27:51. > :27:55.it's paid to mothers. The interesting bit about this new
:27:55. > :27:58.Universal Credit benefit that replaces the tax credit is almost
:27:58. > :28:02.certainly it can be paid to either partner, it will probably end up in
:28:02. > :28:04.the wallet rather than the purse. That is a regressive step back to
:28:04. > :28:09.the 80s when all the research showed there were problems with
:28:09. > :28:13.that in terms of where money is managed. It is managed by women,
:28:13. > :28:18.and the benefits look like they're going to be back being paid to men.
:28:18. > :28:25.That is where we must look at this time around. We will be back at the
:28:25. > :28:30.usual time next week. I hope you will join us. Goodbye. What am I,
:28:30. > :28:36.invisible? Some carry on this week. People are confused. Basically, you
:28:36. > :28:41.put your application in, you take your application out. In out in
:28:41. > :28:45.about you shake it all about. That's what it's all about! Some
:28:45. > :28:49.people don't like Derry be in the UK City of Culture. Particularly
:28:49. > :28:53.upset of the Real IRA, especially the Londonderry branch. Yes,
:28:53. > :28:58.Londonderry dissidents want Londonderry to be the UK's City of