0:00:21 > 0:00:24Hello and welcome to Hearts And Minds. Coming up on the programme:
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Protecting the innocent - is the Executive doing enought to make
0:00:27 > 0:00:29sure children don't suffer through welfare reform?
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Protecting the past - are we vandalising our architectural
0:00:32 > 0:00:36heritage? The inmates left, but the officers
0:00:36 > 0:00:39stayed - cleaning up the "mess" of prison reform.
0:00:39 > 0:00:49And should we be able to sack our MPs mid-term if they're dishonest,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54
0:00:54 > 0:01:04The government's welfare reform is designed to make the system less
0:01:04 > 0:01:07complex and for -- and to make it pay for people to go to work. The
0:01:07 > 0:01:16children's Commission is urging the Executive to make special provision
0:01:16 > 0:01:26to protect children. With me are Patricia Lewsley-Mooney. The
0:01:26 > 0:01:26
0:01:26 > 0:01:31You your recent report talks about the reforms hitting 6,500 children.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37He says, you have just made that up. I think it is important to note
0:01:37 > 0:01:40that this report, while the minister will admit there is a
0:01:40 > 0:01:44broad range of issues with regards welfare reform, this report has
0:01:44 > 0:01:49been as comprehensive as it possibly can. The issue was we went
0:01:49 > 0:01:53to the department and we asked for the data that they had. As a result,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57the minister's department told us that there were 1300 families, with
0:01:57 > 0:02:03five children or more, who would be affected by this benefits cap. That
0:02:03 > 0:02:07is where you get the 6,500. In fact, it could be more than that because
0:02:07 > 0:02:12some children -- some families have more than five children. They are
0:02:12 > 0:02:19not making it up. It is clear if you look at the report, there is no
0:02:19 > 0:02:23inclusion of data, of tables, or figures, of explanation. It's
0:02:23 > 0:02:27simply makes clear claims, which we believe are unfounded. The trees of
0:02:27 > 0:02:32the matter is that under welfare reform, and particularly the core
0:02:32 > 0:02:36element of Universal Credit, 10,000 children in Northern Ireland will
0:02:36 > 0:02:39be taken out of poverty. Those are the figures we have got from the
0:02:39 > 0:02:43Department for Work and Pensions in London. They say in Northern
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Ireland it will be 10,000 children taken out of poverty. That is an
0:02:46 > 0:02:51important aspect of the figures and it is not mentioned in the report.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56Do you accept that? It is dependent on whether the parents get a job.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01The issue is, when we here early on this week that we have now hit the
0:03:01 > 0:03:06double-dip recession, that the opportunity for many of those to
0:03:06 > 0:03:10get employment is going to be much more difficult. The statistics that
0:03:10 > 0:03:17we have given, and these numbers, have come from the information that
0:03:17 > 0:03:23we got from the department. Where do you get 10,000 from? Is it an
0:03:23 > 0:03:26aspirational figure? No, indeed. There is a modelling system that
0:03:26 > 0:03:32the Department for Work and Pensions has developed which allows
0:03:32 > 0:03:35you to calculate the changes that there will be within welfare reform.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38There are good elements within welfare reform. There are less but
0:03:38 > 0:03:43the developments. There are elements we have problems with. We
0:03:43 > 0:03:47need to look at the thing in totality. This report is partial,
0:03:47 > 0:03:50it is flawed, it doesn't have a strong basis. If we are going to
0:03:50 > 0:03:55have the debate about welfare reform, and the conversation over
0:03:55 > 0:03:59the next number of months, it is important it is based on facts and
0:03:59 > 0:04:03figures that we can stand over. We are keen to engage with a wide
0:04:03 > 0:04:07range of stakeholders. We are already doing that through our
0:04:07 > 0:04:10stakeholders forum. We have the Executive sub-committee on welfare
0:04:10 > 0:04:15reform. The suggestion that children have not been visible in
0:04:15 > 0:04:19those conversations is simply nonsense. Are you saying not
0:04:19 > 0:04:23visible, or not visible enough? am saying they have not been
0:04:23 > 0:04:26visible. We wrote to the Minister saying, had he taken the children
0:04:27 > 0:04:32into consideration under his assessment? He wrote back and said
0:04:32 > 0:04:36there because the department did not have the data. -- he said no.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40We said we would do the research. We were trying to find out where
0:04:40 > 0:04:45the gaps were, the critical issues that would impact on these children
0:04:45 > 0:04:48were talking about tonight. And he welcomed that. He has seen the
0:04:48 > 0:04:52reports before they were published, we have asked for a meeting with
0:04:52 > 0:04:56the minister, which we will have, and we will discuss this further. I
0:04:56 > 0:04:59would not be doing my job properly if I wasn't speaking up for
0:04:59 > 0:05:05children and young people in Northern Ireland, and identifying
0:05:05 > 0:05:09critical areas that I believe the minister and the Executive and the
0:05:09 > 0:05:12committee of social development don't take into consideration.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15want to come back on a couple of things. We are still negotiating
0:05:15 > 0:05:19with the Department for Work and Pensions and the Treasury around a
0:05:19 > 0:05:23number of these issues. Until we get the final figures from a
0:05:23 > 0:05:27Majesty's Revenue & Customs, it will be impossible to work out the
0:05:27 > 0:05:32total impact in Northern Ireland for welfare reform. The issue
0:05:32 > 0:05:35around the 6,500, I don't see the basis for that. There is no
0:05:35 > 0:05:40explanation in the report. We only received the report a couple of
0:05:40 > 0:05:45days ago. My officials are going through it. Whatever there is that
0:05:45 > 0:05:51is helpful, we could take out of it. Some of the comments, the word
0:05:51 > 0:05:55horror, that was used in the press release by the commissioner, I
0:05:55 > 0:06:00think that is alarmist, unhelpful, and creates concerns that don't
0:06:00 > 0:06:03contribute to a constructive discussion. You are accusing the
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Children's Commissioner of being alarmist? You could put it that way
0:06:07 > 0:06:11for. When I have met parents who are alarmed at the prospect of what
0:06:11 > 0:06:14is going to happen to them, when I have met the parents who are
0:06:14 > 0:06:18working, who are on low incomes, and the impact that these cuts are
0:06:18 > 0:06:23going to have on their families, I don't believe I am alarmist. I have
0:06:23 > 0:06:30to say, I was myself alarmed this afternoon at the seminar that we
0:06:30 > 0:06:32had to launch these two reports, that we have food banks set up
0:06:32 > 0:06:39across community and voluntary organisations in Belfast that are
0:06:39 > 0:06:44actually giving out as we talk. What do you want the minister to do
0:06:44 > 0:06:47that he is not going to do? I would like to see the bill, and I welcome
0:06:47 > 0:06:53that the Bill is now going to go through the house and it is going
0:06:53 > 0:06:59to go to the committee, through the scrutiny, and that you use some of
0:06:59 > 0:07:02the information that we have given you. What must the Executive do?
0:07:02 > 0:07:08They must ensure they protect the most vulnerable in our society.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12how? To ensure that this doesn't impact any worse than it already
0:07:12 > 0:07:22well did on the other people and the children that we know this is
0:07:22 > 0:07:22
0:07:22 > 0:07:26With all respect, those comments are simply back to us. -- vacuous.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29The Executive sub-committee is working closely with the Social
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Security Agency, the Department for Work and Pensions and others to
0:07:33 > 0:07:36make sure we bring forward maximum flexible possibilities to mitigate
0:07:36 > 0:07:44against but a notable events that there will be in Northern Ireland -
0:07:44 > 0:07:48- against detriment to balk -- We have already announced that it
0:07:48 > 0:07:51will be taken forward by full scrutiny, which I think shows how
0:07:51 > 0:07:55the commission is out of touch with the facts on this issue. You are
0:07:55 > 0:08:00not just alarmist but also out of touch? I welcome the fact that has
0:08:00 > 0:08:03now been made public. It was made public quite some time ago.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07welcome the fact it is going to happen. I am saying that we wanted
0:08:07 > 0:08:10to take some of the issues that we have raised in these reports and
0:08:10 > 0:08:15consider them, which you have agreed that you will. The question
0:08:15 > 0:08:18is not raising issues, the question is how you find solutions. What I
0:08:18 > 0:08:22find missing are realistic solutions. It says you should be
0:08:22 > 0:08:26working with mortgage lenders to help people with housing benefit
0:08:26 > 0:08:29reductions, if they have to move to a cheaper area. You should be
0:08:29 > 0:08:33dealing directly with mortgage lenders. He should be working to
0:08:33 > 0:08:39bring down the cost of rents from private landlords. But that's
0:08:39 > 0:08:46something you are going to do? -- is that something question of
0:08:47 > 0:08:49Will be possibly one of the effects of those changes. But it is
0:08:49 > 0:08:52impossible to go in and say to particular landlords, you're going
0:08:52 > 0:08:57to charge this rent, that rent. There are number of suggestions in
0:08:57 > 0:09:02the report that are impossible, because they are matters reserved,
0:09:02 > 0:09:06matters for Westminster. HMRC issues for example. There are other
0:09:06 > 0:09:09suggestions which we are already doing. I am disappointed by the
0:09:09 > 0:09:14report. It was an opportunity that I think those who prepare the
0:09:14 > 0:09:18report... How far are you prepared to go? We are supposed to have
0:09:18 > 0:09:22parity with other areas of the United Kingdom but there is a thing
0:09:22 > 0:09:27called stretched parity. To what extent do you think you can do that
0:09:27 > 0:09:29to protect children? We have asked all the political parties in the
0:09:29 > 0:09:33Executive, through the sub- committee, to bring forward
0:09:33 > 0:09:37suggestions of areas where there might be flexibility. That will not
0:09:37 > 0:09:41be any breach of parity. It will be operational flexibility. We have
0:09:41 > 0:09:46identified four or five areas that have been talked about already, in
0:09:46 > 0:09:50regard to single payments, direct payment to landlords as opposed to
0:09:51 > 0:09:56payments to the individual. The issues around monthly payments and
0:09:56 > 0:09:59so on. I have discussed those in detail with Iain Duncan Smith, with
0:09:59 > 0:10:05David Freud, with the officials at Westminster. Those things are being
0:10:05 > 0:10:09worked on already. Some of the ideas in this report are bizarre.
0:10:09 > 0:10:17Your party voted against excluding child benefit from the benefit cap,
0:10:17 > 0:10:22will that help children? benefit cap is �26,000. If you take
0:10:22 > 0:10:26that as a gross pay, roughly �35,000. In many ways, it is a
0:10:26 > 0:10:31reasonable income. There are many folk working full-time in Northern
0:10:31 > 0:10:35Ireland earning a lot less. don't think your vote will damage
0:10:35 > 0:10:39children in any way? The benefit cap is one that my party voted for
0:10:39 > 0:10:44in Westminster. I find a lot of support for it in Northern Ireland.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48The average wage is 23,000. Have you got more work to do? We all
0:10:48 > 0:10:53have more work to do and I want to work with the minister and the
0:10:53 > 0:11:03department to ensure that the most vulnerable in Northern Ireland...
0:11:03 > 0:11:09
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Prison is the major institution here that missed reform in the Good
0:11:12 > 0:11:15Friday Agreement - a costly mistake. Repeated inquiries in recent years
0:11:15 > 0:11:17- accelerated when prisoners killed themselves - have shown up a system
0:11:17 > 0:11:20that's shambolic, expensive and probably discriminating - careless
0:11:20 > 0:11:23towards the most vulnerable, women and the young, non-English-speakers.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26But the effort to replace the old order of mainly Protestant, male
0:11:26 > 0:11:31officers with a smaller staff, better mixed, has met tough
0:11:31 > 0:11:33resistance. A service that came through the fire - 29 violent
0:11:33 > 0:11:36deaths in the Troubles, republicans responsible for all but two
0:11:36 > 0:11:41officers killed by the UVF - was never going to volunteer lay-offs
0:11:41 > 0:11:43in peace-time. A governor of Maghaberry left after five months,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46the Prisons Ombudsman, Pauline McCabe, finding it probable that
0:11:46 > 0:11:56details of his car were planted by a prison officer in a republican's
0:11:56 > 0:11:57
0:11:57 > 0:12:01cell "to encourage the governor to Dissident protests about strip
0:12:01 > 0:12:05searches arrived into an already fractious, uncoordinated overhaul.
0:12:05 > 0:12:11Now a Director of Prison Services, appointed just over a year ago, has
0:12:11 > 0:12:15left again. No loss, says veteran head of the Prison Officers'
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Association, Finlay Spratt. "Long battles of attrition", says a
0:12:19 > 0:12:23despairing official report. Mr Spratt instead sees "a mess" that's
0:12:23 > 0:12:27"dismantled" the service. You'd never have guessed there are
0:12:27 > 0:12:30sizeable payoffs. DUP voices, mainly concerned about local
0:12:30 > 0:12:35employment, are gearing up to block plans to close Magilligan and
0:12:35 > 0:12:40replace it nearer Maghaberry. Yet the prisons have more staff than
0:12:40 > 0:12:45inmates. To put it bluntly, the problem is that warders stayed, and
0:12:45 > 0:12:49prisoners left. Early release freed many who committed terrible crimes
0:12:49 > 0:12:55after a very few years. It's two- and-a-half times more expensive to
0:12:55 > 0:13:00house a prisoner than elsewhere in the UK. The years of soldiers on
0:13:00 > 0:13:03guard and rings of steel had a huge cost in financial and human terms.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07Everyone knows the photographs of the Nissen huts of Long Kesh;
0:13:07 > 0:13:09tanned prisoners in their own self- governing communities: burly
0:13:09 > 0:13:12loyalists, smiling long-haired republicans, the twists provided by
0:13:12 > 0:13:20later events - little Denis Donaldson alongside the tall, young
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Bobby Sands. No work, no cells, no lockup; bravado and escapes - and
0:13:26 > 0:13:28the misery of hunger-strikes. Prisoners and their extended
0:13:28 > 0:13:33families provided an engine of continuing violence, the numbers
0:13:33 > 0:13:38huge on both sides. The social damage is unquantifiable, and
0:13:38 > 0:13:42lasting. On the plus side, some inside seized the chance of
0:13:42 > 0:13:47education. In republican and some loyalist areas, being an ex-
0:13:47 > 0:13:53prisoner still has status. Northern Ireland's prison population
0:13:53 > 0:13:56multiplied by four from the late 1960s to almost 3,000 in 1978. That
0:13:56 > 0:14:02shrank to less than 1,000 as peace took hold, then rose again to
0:14:02 > 0:14:04today's 1,400-odd. But we still have a smaller proportion of the
0:14:04 > 0:14:10population locked up than anywhere nearby except Scandinavia; half
0:14:10 > 0:14:17that of England and Wales. Prison Officers in Britain, and elsewhere,
0:14:17 > 0:14:20fight off inquiries and reforms. No wonder there are problems here -
0:14:20 > 0:14:28the shame is that even suicide and scandal hasn't forced a thorough
0:14:28 > 0:14:30Conservationists have been reeling at the announcement by the
0:14:30 > 0:14:38Environment Minister that the Athletic Stores building in Belfast
0:14:38 > 0:14:41is to be demolished. The building is a former linen warehouse - part
0:14:41 > 0:14:44of Belfast's history that features extensively in the new Titanic
0:14:44 > 0:14:47exhibition. So if Government wants to encourage tourists to come and
0:14:47 > 0:14:57learn about our past, shouldn't we be preserving it? Julia Paul
0:14:57 > 0:15:00
0:15:00 > 0:15:04In case you hadn't heard, Belfast is the place to be. This month, the
0:15:04 > 0:15:08City's Welcome Centre has recorded its most successful two weeks ever.
0:15:08 > 0:15:13Well, it is the kind of weather that most tourists seem to
0:15:13 > 0:15:16experience when they come to Belfast, but it is clear that this
0:15:16 > 0:15:21new �97 million centre is already becoming a tourist attraction.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Inside, its exhibitions chart the history of Belfast, from the linen
0:15:25 > 0:15:29mills to shipbuilding. But the risk of being relentlessly negative,
0:15:29 > 0:15:33what about the Belfast buildings that were actually a part of that
0:15:33 > 0:15:37history? Just down from the titanic building is the Holland and wolf
0:15:37 > 0:15:47drawing office, where Thomas Andrews designed the Titanic.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Although the public can now visit, Here we are at the centre of the
0:15:52 > 0:15:58universe as far as the Titanic is concerned. But what you see around
0:15:58 > 0:16:01you is a lot of new build. Very little of the original maritime
0:16:01 > 0:16:07heritage exists, but people who come here come because they are
0:16:07 > 0:16:11captivated by the image of industrial island, industrial
0:16:11 > 0:16:18Belfast of the early 1900s. I don't think there will be disappointed,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21but when they come here, they expect to see more. The department
0:16:21 > 0:16:25of enterprise, trade and investment said that the Titanic Foundation is
0:16:25 > 0:16:33working on a development plan, but because the drawing offices are
0:16:33 > 0:16:37listed, it could take up to seven years. But buildings like this
0:16:37 > 0:16:43warehouse, now home to the athletics stores are not so lucky.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47Although it is in a conservation area, the minister for the
0:16:47 > 0:16:52Environment has given the go-ahead to demolish it. He says it is
0:16:52 > 0:16:56dangerous and too expensive to keep the facade. Given the fact there
0:16:56 > 0:17:01are derelict sites on that street, given there are many properties for
0:17:01 > 0:17:06sale on that street, and given the precarious state of this building,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10it is in my view quite so evident that there would have been no or
0:17:10 > 0:17:14little interest in the purchase of that property. In those
0:17:14 > 0:17:19circumstances, I could not believe that property to go into further
0:17:19 > 0:17:25dereliction. It is a fate that has befallen many historical buildings
0:17:25 > 0:17:31left empty. The Ulster architectural Heritage Society says
0:17:31 > 0:17:35many of our buildings are being lost every year. This picture is
0:17:35 > 0:17:39from 1951. The buildings marked in red have all been demolished. We
0:17:39 > 0:17:49asked the society to take us on a tour of Belfast's historic
0:17:49 > 0:17:51
0:17:51 > 0:17:57buildings, many of which are lying empty. This factory became the
0:17:57 > 0:18:05linen warehouse. It is a building by James Hamilton. It is one of the
0:18:05 > 0:18:10keep warehouses within this linen Conservation Area. A spokesman for
0:18:10 > 0:18:13the owners says it is part of a three-phase development plan and
0:18:13 > 0:18:21they are looking for investors. They had the warehouse will be
0:18:21 > 0:18:31turned into a boutique hotel. building featured on our first
0:18:31 > 0:18:35Buildings at Risk register. It is still what here festering. Next up,
0:18:35 > 0:18:45the College Square East building, built in 1907. It is now up for
0:18:45 > 0:18:51sale. Many architects were trained here. It is a baroque building and
0:18:51 > 0:18:57a key landmark. The building is empty because the Belfast
0:18:57 > 0:19:05Metropolitan College has moved to a new site in the Titanic Quarter.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09is like Queens University turning its back on its main building.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13college plays an important role in creating a new work force and
0:19:13 > 0:19:19moving to the Titanic Quarter is part of that. The college says the
0:19:19 > 0:19:22new building is significantly increasing the quality and standard
0:19:22 > 0:19:27of this estate. Meanwhile, the Ulster architectural Society says
0:19:27 > 0:19:37it is not just Belfast's landmark buildings that need protecting.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39
0:19:39 > 0:19:49These houses were seen to beat two of -- seen as being two a penny.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52
0:19:52 > 0:19:58The policy has been to demolish the streets. These houses are now
0:19:58 > 0:20:04listed and are being or renovated by the local housing association.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08Tour over, it is back to the athletics stores where the society
0:20:08 > 0:20:16is challenging the decision to demolish. It says the department
0:20:16 > 0:20:19needs to lead by example. I have been set in the lead in this. If
0:20:19 > 0:20:24you put �1.5 million into the Titanic dark, if you'd bought in
0:20:24 > 0:20:30�400,000 to save a church, if you increase heritage grants, in my
0:20:31 > 0:20:35view, they are examples of leadership. To Murrow, all those
0:20:35 > 0:20:40interested in the built environment will make for a conference. Their
0:20:40 > 0:20:45challenge is to find ways of preserving and developing it
0:20:45 > 0:20:50Northern Ireland's historical buildings.
0:20:50 > 0:21:00The reputation of MPs has taken a battering in recent years with
0:21:00 > 0:21:08
0:21:08 > 0:21:18expensive -- expenses scandals,... What about changing the law to
0:21:18 > 0:21:23
0:21:23 > 0:21:27allow us to sack our politicians mid-term? Mark Durkan, the
0:21:27 > 0:21:32government wants to make it it would be MPs who would decide when
0:21:32 > 0:21:38and where a member should be brought to account. What is wrong
0:21:38 > 0:21:42with that? That is just leaving the club to run itself. The fact is,
0:21:42 > 0:21:49all the main parties going into the election on the back of the
0:21:49 > 0:21:52expenses scandal or pledged themselves to recall to put powers
0:21:52 > 0:22:00in the hands of voters because everybody said after the expenses
0:22:00 > 0:22:10scandal, you cannot have a club running itself, running it the way
0:22:10 > 0:22:15
0:22:15 > 0:22:20they want it to be run. Now, they are saint Maybe someone could be
0:22:20 > 0:22:30recalled. The power is not with the electorate, it is with a hand-
0:22:30 > 0:22:34
0:22:34 > 0:22:37picked group of MPs. Douglas Carswell, MPs deserve protection
0:22:37 > 0:22:44from random people in the constituencies same, I don't like
0:22:44 > 0:22:47the way they did that, Seles recall them. Since when did those who we
0:22:47 > 0:22:51elect to make the law need protection? Many of your fee was
0:22:51 > 0:22:55will have jobs and will be hired on the basis that when they get the
0:22:55 > 0:22:59job, they would do something. Unfortunately, politicians seem to
0:22:59 > 0:23:03be hired by the voters to do a job and not do it, or do it badly, or
0:23:03 > 0:23:08two things that are wrong, break their word and the voter cannot do
0:23:08 > 0:23:17anything about it. In seven out of 10 seats in Britain, we have in
0:23:17 > 0:23:21effect have a one-party Fife done. It denies a choice over the person
0:23:21 > 0:23:29that people want to represent them. If we had a recall, of course you
0:23:29 > 0:23:33were there to see some vexatious attempts to get people out. The
0:23:34 > 0:23:38voters are not stupid. They will be able to differentiate between a
0:23:38 > 0:23:43genuine criticism of a particular individual and eight vexatious the
0:23:43 > 0:23:50tent to remove someone who won an election fair and square. We saw an
0:23:50 > 0:23:54example of this in Winchester in 1997. The Conservatives sanctioned
0:23:54 > 0:24:04a recall. The voters went to the polling station again and the
0:24:04 > 0:24:21
0:24:21 > 0:24:26incumbent Lee Byrne -- encumbered There has been an issue about
0:24:27 > 0:24:33policies that are changed when they are in power. They call it flip
0:24:33 > 0:24:38flopping. Should there be something done about it? People should be
0:24:38 > 0:24:42conscious that they are beholden to their electorate. I don't believe
0:24:42 > 0:24:48you would get all sorts of traditions coming in were people
0:24:48 > 0:24:58change, particularly if policies were explained correctly. Also, you
0:24:58 > 0:25:03
0:25:03 > 0:25:08would want people to be protected in terms of conscious voting. I
0:25:08 > 0:25:18don't believe it would be widely abused, but if it does make MPs
0:25:18 > 0:25:22
0:25:22 > 0:25:27more conscience of their mandate and responsibility, that is good.
0:25:27 > 0:25:31It would strengthen Parliament. So given the electorate more power
0:25:31 > 0:25:37could eventually give MPs more power. We should say this is really
0:25:37 > 0:25:40about MPs who are found to have been guilty of serious wrongdoing,
0:25:40 > 0:25:45not flipped flopping on policy issues. We should not be tried to
0:25:45 > 0:25:51draw the distinction. Again, it is for people to decide who they want
0:25:51 > 0:25:56to represent them in the legislature or. At the moment, the
0:25:56 > 0:26:01government's plans leave it to the grandees in Westminster. Frankly, I
0:26:01 > 0:26:04would rather take my chances with the voters in my constituency. They
0:26:04 > 0:26:09know me, they would know the context of any judgment that needed
0:26:09 > 0:26:14to be made and if you leave it to a committee of brandies to decide
0:26:14 > 0:26:20what constitutes serious wrong doing... It is the standards and
0:26:20 > 0:26:23privileges committee that many people say do a good job. Well, I
0:26:23 > 0:26:27would rather face the judgment of the people who put me in the job
0:26:27 > 0:26:33than the first players rather than a committee of people who perhaps
0:26:33 > 0:26:40might just be be holding to internal considerations within the
0:26:40 > 0:26:44Westminster village. But one of the reasons people do not trust
0:26:44 > 0:26:49politicians is that when we are chasing votes, we promise things
0:26:49 > 0:26:54that we do not intend to carry out. If we had a recall mechanism
0:26:54 > 0:26:58hanging over us, we would think very carefully as individuals will
0:26:58 > 0:27:02we draw up aware election address, a personal contract with the voters
0:27:03 > 0:27:06if you like, we would ask ourselves and searching questions about the
0:27:06 > 0:27:11policies we make as individuals before we stand for election. If
0:27:11 > 0:27:18that happens, voters from all parties could have more trust in
0:27:18 > 0:27:23those representing them. Could this be a extended to the regional
0:27:24 > 0:27:27assemblies? In the context of Northern Ireland, it would be hard
0:27:27 > 0:27:37because of the multi- Seat constituency. There would be a
0:27:37 > 0:27:44
0:27:44 > 0:27:48higher risk of abuse. What would you do? False a by-election? --
0:27:48 > 0:27:58force. We have multi- Seat constituencies and it would be
0:27:58 > 0:28:06
0:28:06 > 0:28:16difficult to apply the basics of recall. When do you think this is
0:28:16 > 0:28:20going to happen? When we do that is the it brought in? I'm disappointed.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24After the expenses scandal, all three parties promise this, but we
0:28:24 > 0:28:29left the small print to the Westminster insiders. They are
0:28:29 > 0:28:33coming up with the recall mechanism without the actual recall in it. I
0:28:33 > 0:28:41think it is going to happen, but I don't think this administration
0:28:41 > 0:28:45what make real recall happen. you to both of you. And that is why
0:28:45 > 0:28:55we must leave it. We will be back next week at the usual time.
0:28:55 > 0:29:00