:00:22. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week. The Education
:00:25. > :00:30.Minister on his blueprint for schools. Is it about quality or
:00:31. > :00:35.cash? Are the striking health unions
:00:35. > :00:38.taking us back to the red flag politics of the seventies?
:00:39. > :00:45.And two Northern challengers in the race for the Aras. We assess the
:00:45. > :00:48.The Education Minister set out his proposals this week for as he put
:00:48. > :00:53.it, improving education for all pupils, a process which he said
:00:53. > :01:00.would involve unpopular but necessary decisions. John O'Dowd is
:01:00. > :01:04.with me now. The focus has been on school closures. You said there is
:01:04. > :01:11.no hit list but defy it was a principal with falling numbers, I
:01:11. > :01:15.would feel vulnerable and with some justification. The sustainable
:01:15. > :01:23.schools policy has specific issues. One of the key factors examining
:01:23. > :01:26.the future liability of the school is accessibility. We do have large
:01:26. > :01:32.swathes of rural areas in society where for primary schoolchildren
:01:32. > :01:37.the distance between two schools is too much. However, the key issue is
:01:37. > :01:42.the quality of the education being obtained by the children after
:01:42. > :01:47.school. The first phase of the work is looking at the post primary
:01:47. > :01:53.sector because it is clear from studies that we need a certain
:01:53. > :01:59.number of pupils in a school to allow the entitlement framework
:02:00. > :02:05.which brings us up to 27 subjects on the curriculum and we need a
:02:05. > :02:10.greater mass of pupils and teachers to deliver. Numbers are the easiest
:02:10. > :02:15.things to measure so that will be the main thing. Yes, they are but
:02:15. > :02:22.there are not measuring numbers, we are measuring education and it is
:02:22. > :02:27.not just a numbers game. It looks at the quality, the quality of
:02:27. > :02:33.leadership in the school, it looks at accessibility and looks at the
:02:33. > :02:40.community links with the school. There is a community part two. I
:02:40. > :02:43.hear complaints schools close at 4pm and shut off from the community.
:02:43. > :02:47.Also how the school engages with the community because the school
:02:47. > :02:51.that does that, the educational table is growing because the
:02:51. > :02:56.community feels part of it. said there is no hit list but it
:02:56. > :03:00.was pointed out by other politicians there are lists of
:03:01. > :03:05.schools which boards are worried about. And that will be the list,
:03:05. > :03:11.but will not change in the course of this liability -- the viability
:03:11. > :03:19.review. Some of them will be on a list on your desk. I do not like
:03:19. > :03:23.the term hit list. We are talking about people's futures. Where we
:03:23. > :03:31.need to reduce the number of schools, we have the same number of
:03:31. > :03:34.pupils so we have to put them somewhere. Of course, we have
:03:34. > :03:38.research and if we didn't journalists would quite rightly
:03:38. > :03:43.criticise us for not being informed about the state of our schools. We
:03:43. > :03:51.do routinely examine the financial liability of schools and the
:03:52. > :03:59.educational attainment and also important link. So you could say
:03:59. > :04:03.give me a list of 20 schools tomorrow. I could but I haven't. I
:04:03. > :04:08.have asked the boards to sit down together to look at the future
:04:08. > :04:14.viability of schools across the sector. Importantly, I have asked
:04:14. > :04:19.them to examine, we have a number of schools what we do with the
:04:19. > :04:28.pupils? We have to move the pupils on to ensure they receive a proper
:04:28. > :04:32.education is a must-have for -- education. I want to ensure Etain
:04:32. > :04:37.it is high in every school and where schools cannot make it we
:04:37. > :04:46.have to ask ourselves what we do with the pupils? The wider vision,
:04:46. > :04:52.you have asked for a real study of providing decent patterns of
:04:52. > :04:59.schools in the various areas. Where is it heading, where is the logic,
:04:59. > :05:06.Peter Robinson called for a single unified schools system. Well, no,
:05:06. > :05:11.it is a more monolithic organisation than I would envisage.
:05:11. > :05:21.Diversity in education is a good thing. We have a growing Irish
:05:21. > :05:26.
:05:27. > :05:32.language sector,... And missing its targets. We need to move towards
:05:32. > :05:36.sharing of facilities and schools. If the proposal comes back to me to
:05:36. > :05:43.have a controlled singular school on one side, I will look upon our
:05:43. > :05:46.favourite bit. The Catholic schools have completed a survey but they
:05:46. > :05:52.have this boning the report because of your announcement. Does that
:05:53. > :05:57.head in a different direction from your vision? All the sectors are
:05:57. > :06:01.aware of my views in planning the future. This statement may have
:06:01. > :06:08.been new to the sectors, my views have been expressed on several
:06:08. > :06:14.occasions three meetings and other engagements. What I would say, the
:06:14. > :06:19.Catholic sector would have to be radical, it has to be fitting into
:06:19. > :06:26.the parameters a set-up. What you think radical means? What is the
:06:26. > :06:32.vision? Well, we have to ask, it is no longer the needs of school age,
:06:32. > :06:36.we should look at the needs of the school's surrounding school and how
:06:36. > :06:44.we amalgamate this together. And maybe continue to use them. I ask
:06:44. > :06:49.the question, why it on an urban street would then need two schools
:06:49. > :06:53.operating if one of the numbers is falling, widely need to operate
:06:53. > :06:58.both of the schools at this time? Surely resources would be better
:06:58. > :07:04.used amalgamating the schools and raising the quality and attainment
:07:04. > :07:09.of children in the school. And with the same applied to different
:07:09. > :07:13.sectors on the same street? Yes, or so it would apply to different
:07:13. > :07:19.sectors coming-together on one street. I am not opposed to up. As
:07:19. > :07:26.we have seen, there is a lot of sharing going on. The mechanisms I
:07:26. > :07:30.have set in place let's sharing to take place. We had about projects
:07:30. > :07:35.involving 150 schools, it has been going for five years, the
:07:35. > :07:39.department has and put a single penny into it. Why not?
:07:39. > :07:48.Department supports are sharing in many ways. But not financially.
:07:48. > :07:53.They have offended -- funded schooling. For principles to sit
:07:53. > :07:59.down in one room together has been the experience. We are funding
:07:59. > :08:02.sharing. I had said explicitly in my statement on Monday if proposals
:08:02. > :08:12.come back the shared facilities I will support those. We are
:08:12. > :08:13.
:08:13. > :08:18.championing -- championing them in Omagh. We have to move on. People
:08:18. > :08:23.have to change their mind set. It is not about the individual school,
:08:23. > :08:29.it is of other pupils that attend the school. Is any of this ever
:08:29. > :08:35.going to happen? The last great fix was the E S A which was brought
:08:35. > :08:39.into being from 2006. It has not happened and is costing millions of
:08:39. > :08:44.pounds to run. It is not doing anything. It is something your
:08:44. > :08:48.predecessor did not push along at all. That requires political
:08:48. > :08:52.agreement. If you look at the history of the executive since the
:08:53. > :09:00.summer recess and after elections, we have carried out a number of
:09:00. > :09:06.major decisions, the DUP and Sinn Fein have put proposals to the
:09:06. > :09:11.Environment Agency. We have agreed on a proposals. The politics has
:09:11. > :09:18.opened up again. We are moving decisions through the executive. I
:09:18. > :09:22.believe with goodwill it can be achieved. Will my proposes be
:09:22. > :09:26.achieved? Yes. The terms of reference will be sent out right, I
:09:26. > :09:31.will consult further with the boards and other sectors on the
:09:31. > :09:40.next piece of work around area planning. In four weeks' time you
:09:40. > :09:45.could be deputy first minister, then what? What about continuity in
:09:45. > :09:53.your sector? The party would decide in the circumstances who is deputy
:09:53. > :09:56.first minister. There is a pool of talent. I am content whether in
:09:56. > :10:03.education or D F N, we have the capacity to move along the right
:10:03. > :10:07.path. Not a word in the blueprint about the transfer test, why not?
:10:08. > :10:13.We talked about educational attainment and sustainability.
:10:13. > :10:17.There are schools now he close their doors to children and they
:10:17. > :10:22.would have to open them up to survive. That is the reality. No
:10:22. > :10:26.school can sit out on its own. This new direction and policy means
:10:26. > :10:30.schools he once thought they could sit on the hill with the front
:10:30. > :10:37.gates baht to the community... looked at figures showing a
:10:37. > :10:42.grammar-school us take dozens of people who get a grade D. Hundreds.
:10:42. > :10:48.A small number of grammar schools are true grammar schools. The
:10:48. > :10:52.selection test is a clever marketing device. It has not been
:10:52. > :10:58.addressed, no one seems to be talking about it and the transfer
:10:58. > :11:02.test continues to exist. The fact is from my stint on Monday, no
:11:02. > :11:11.school or sector will be able to sit out on their own. There would
:11:11. > :11:16.have to come round the table and be part of learning communities.
:11:16. > :11:20.you said you often heard sad tales of pupils being made to leave
:11:20. > :11:24.schools because they did not reach specific attainment, you are
:11:24. > :11:30.talking about people who do not get good enough grades to study at 6th
:11:30. > :11:34.form. Is that a direct attack on grammar schools? It is not a case
:11:34. > :11:39.where young people has not achieved the grades to go on a study, it may
:11:39. > :11:44.be more of a challenge, what was happening was if you do not get
:11:44. > :11:51.exceptional grades, you're asked to move on. Universities are demanding
:11:51. > :11:56.exceptional results. But our schools system is there to teach
:11:57. > :12:00.until the child leaves a 16. We are witnessing in many areas where
:12:00. > :12:04.pupils are asked to leave because their exam results do not meet the
:12:04. > :12:09.needs of the school. That is not how education should work. The
:12:09. > :12:14.school should meet the needs of the people. That is what the play is
:12:14. > :12:18.brilliant -- we pay billions into the education system. What is the
:12:18. > :12:28.risk of it all becoming a series of sticking plasters without any
:12:28. > :12:37.central vision? No, that is why I have bought the board together to
:12:37. > :12:46.have a legislative responsibility, working in close conjunction. Those
:12:46. > :12:54.bodies have legislative basis. A short time pieces of work with
:12:54. > :12:59.long-term results. Turning to another subject, the child abuse
:12:59. > :13:03.inquiry, the bodies set up, how important is that? To be victims
:13:03. > :13:08.and survivors it is vitally important. For the first time in a
:13:08. > :13:14.society's history week, as elected politicians, have acknowledged the
:13:14. > :13:18.harm done to those young people. They were abused terribly because
:13:18. > :13:22.they are put into the care of the state or the agencies of the state.
:13:22. > :13:28.The first step we have taken is acknowledging no wrong, the next
:13:28. > :13:33.step has to be an inquiry and identification. A you would pursue
:13:33. > :13:38.it to prosecution? If criminal acts took place, which they have, and
:13:38. > :13:48.the evidence is put forward, those people should be held responsible.
:13:48. > :13:56.
:13:56. > :13:59.The trade union Unison Mac will be striking next week. The Regional
:13:59. > :14:05.Secretary claims that when she met the Minister Edwin Poots, he did
:14:05. > :14:11.not know what they were striking about. That is understandable. When
:14:11. > :14:17.the ballot was announced, the reason given was a consultant --
:14:17. > :14:24.consultants reports on the NHS. Since then many other reasons have
:14:24. > :14:30.been sighted. There are very few planned compulsory to San --
:14:30. > :14:37.redundancies in health. The striker said to go on. An announcement that
:14:37. > :14:47.schools will have to close will no doubt be added to the max. It is
:14:47. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:56.hard to avoid the idea that Unison... Unison's claim to be
:14:56. > :15:04.defending public services for the good of everyone is self-service --
:15:04. > :15:09.self-serving nonsense. Like most unions, they no longer represent
:15:09. > :15:14.the working class against the ruling class. It represents public
:15:14. > :15:22.sector workers, a privileged vested interest, against the interests of
:15:22. > :15:27.everyone else. If you point this out to public sector workers, they
:15:27. > :15:32.say they are taxpayers as well. The purpose of hospitals is not to
:15:32. > :15:36.employee nurses and the purpose of schools is not to employee teachers.
:15:36. > :15:46.Their employment is a service delivered the overhead. If the same
:15:46. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:53.service can be delivered for less, it should be. Keeping school desks
:15:53. > :15:58.empty because you union is putting their members first. Stormont is a
:15:58. > :16:04.consensus has done. There are signs that its patience with the unions
:16:04. > :16:09.is wearing thin. The DUP's Simon Hamilton has complained about the
:16:09. > :16:14.agenda of a small number of people. Union activism in Northern Ireland
:16:14. > :16:20.involves a few hundred bury them or their placard waverers, often like
:16:20. > :16:27.to hardline parties that cannot get elected. Letting them set the
:16:27. > :16:32.agenda is perverse. The unions have performed at least one public
:16:32. > :16:36.service - introducing real politics to Stormont at last, and even at
:16:36. > :16:46.that is the real politics of the 1970s, is that not where we left
:16:46. > :16:53.off? An Ulster Unionist with a special
:16:53. > :17:00.interest in transplants now. I have recently been elected. I
:17:01. > :17:08.grew up in Banbridge, and my mum and dad had a business. I married a
:17:08. > :17:13.farmer. I represent quite a large rural constituency. Issues with
:17:13. > :17:17.farming here are issues that affect farmers throughout Northern Ireland.
:17:17. > :17:25.I know that farmers want to Falmer not be left filling in forms all
:17:25. > :17:29.the time. The I also represent the three main towns here, we need to
:17:29. > :17:35.protect those towns and and look after those while encouraging
:17:35. > :17:39.inward investment and jobs. My mum has been an active member of the
:17:39. > :17:46.Ulster Unionist Party for many years. She gradually introduced my
:17:46. > :17:51.sister and her myself. Politics consumes you and you find yourself
:17:51. > :17:56.becoming more interested in it. I think sometimes women are reluctant
:17:56. > :18:01.to put themselves forward as an election. They see it as a male-
:18:01. > :18:05.dominated profession. I think with myself and party colleagues
:18:05. > :18:12.recently being elected, it gives them encouragement. I have lived
:18:12. > :18:17.here for more than 20 years. I have two boys. Eliot who is at Cambridge
:18:17. > :18:22.and Mark to farms here with his dad. Mark was diagnosed at five years
:18:22. > :18:28.old as having a severe reflex in both kidneys. We always knew the
:18:28. > :18:33.day would come when he needed a kidney transplant. Nothing quite
:18:33. > :18:37.prepares you for sitting in the consultant's Waiting Room, when
:18:37. > :18:43.they do the blood test, and they say he has two years Max Mum before
:18:43. > :18:48.he must go on the kidney transplant list and his kidneys are closing
:18:48. > :18:54.down completely. Mark had his transplant at 15, just over two
:18:54. > :19:01.years ago. He could not walk, he could hardly move. He was basically
:19:01. > :19:11.dying in front of us. Now he is a strapping bedfellow. He is taking
:19:11. > :19:16.part indeed -- in the transplant Games in August. Mark and I got
:19:16. > :19:22.involved at an Islay which through -- to promote organ donation. At
:19:22. > :19:27.that stage I joined the Northern Ireland kidney Patient Association.
:19:27. > :19:33.For people at any stage of their lives, they can develop organ
:19:33. > :19:38.failure so it is perhaps more stressful for them. To see how well
:19:38. > :19:46.mark looks now, it sees -- shows there is life after a transplant.
:19:46. > :19:50.That is a great benefit. Because he had his transplant at 15, he might
:19:50. > :19:58.need two or three transplants through his life. There is the
:19:58. > :20:02.possibility I could give him a kidney. I would like to be known
:20:02. > :20:07.for offering first-class constituency service for all of my
:20:07. > :20:13.constituents, so that anything that matters to my constituents, I know
:20:14. > :20:17.I will do my best to represent them. The seven runners of the Aras an
:20:17. > :20:24.Uachtarain Challenge are well into the first bend with a full month
:20:24. > :20:29.ahead of them. News Talk Radio's political editor joins us. The
:20:29. > :20:33.nation had their first chance to see the seven candidates in action
:20:33. > :20:38.on prime time last night, in separate interviews. Michael
:20:38. > :20:48.Higgins, President of the Labour Party, was the oldest candidate in
:20:48. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:59.the race. My heart is fine. I had a problem I
:20:59. > :21:05.year ago but it was nothing serious. I am looking forward to their most
:21:05. > :21:10.energetic and vigorous campaign. He is a warm favourite at the
:21:10. > :21:14.moment, with a high profile and a good track record in politics.
:21:14. > :21:19.People like him. If you look at the opinion polls, he is close to the
:21:19. > :21:24.top, and more crucially, he is getting transfers from every other
:21:24. > :21:30.candidate. This race could be decided by transfers. It is
:21:30. > :21:36.conceded that no candidate will get more than half of the vote on the
:21:36. > :21:42.first ballot. He has a presidential look about him and I think it is
:21:42. > :21:51.his contest to lose. Senator David Norris, he pulled out
:21:51. > :21:56.earlier in the year. Now he is back in the race.
:21:56. > :22:03.I could give you a good dancer. I tell you I give you an answer that
:22:03. > :22:11.the Irish people would love me, but I tell you that I cannot on legal
:22:11. > :22:17.advice revealed the contents of those letters. Can you accept that?
:22:17. > :22:22.Is this controversy going to affect the senator's chances?
:22:22. > :22:26.Unquestionably. This controversy will not go away. The issue of the
:22:26. > :22:30.letters has a risen again because only one letter came up when he
:22:30. > :22:36.withdrew from the race. There are possibly five or six other letters
:22:36. > :22:40.that he is refusing to add -- to release, he claims on legal grounds.
:22:40. > :22:45.A lot of people are questioning his legal advice saying there is no
:22:45. > :22:50.legal bar to him releasing the letters. Until he releases those
:22:50. > :22:54.letters, the issue will continue. David Norris is stressing those
:22:55. > :22:59.letters are pretty much identical to the one that was published
:22:59. > :23:05.already but it is an issue that will not go away and will dog him
:23:05. > :23:09.for the length of his campaign. Another northern candidate, he has
:23:09. > :23:15.been asked frequently since his declaration about his past in the
:23:15. > :23:25.iron a. In those interviews, the Enniskillen bomb came up. A I was
:23:25. > :23:26.
:23:26. > :23:32.not senior in the eye are they then. -- away. There were many terrible
:23:32. > :23:36.things that happened. I feel ashamed whenever incidents like
:23:36. > :23:40.that happen in the name of Irish republicanism.
:23:40. > :23:44.Martin McGuinness and his past, still an issue?
:23:44. > :23:49.It is and it will be for the duration of the campaign. He seemed
:23:49. > :23:54.to be surprised by the questioning early on in the campaign, but I
:23:54. > :23:58.think he has used to read at this point. He has dealt with it better
:23:58. > :24:03.in recent days. There is no doubt it will be an issue in this
:24:03. > :24:08.campaign. He will be a little disappointed with his performance
:24:08. > :24:13.in the first big poll of the conference. It showed him at 16%,
:24:13. > :24:17.better than the 10% that Sinn Fein had in the general election, but it
:24:17. > :24:23.is a long way short of what is needed to be elected and crucially,
:24:23. > :24:28.he is not getting transfers. But it would be an improvement on the
:24:28. > :24:33.general election performance, bring him into second or third position.
:24:33. > :24:37.On balance, that might be the limit of Sinn Fein's ambitions.
:24:37. > :24:42.Rosemary Scallon is the second northern candidate from the same
:24:42. > :24:46.part of the world as Martin McGuinness. She was in the race in
:24:46. > :24:51.1997 but did not win it. She was asked this time that she was
:24:51. > :24:56.bringing anything new to the table. People know me as the Eurovision
:24:56. > :25:02.member -- winner for this country but perhaps they did not know me
:25:02. > :25:09.beyond that. I came in third place and took almost 15% of the vote. I
:25:09. > :25:15.know that people began to realise that I said what I thought.
:25:15. > :25:20.I think our chances are slim. She did run in the 1997 presidential
:25:20. > :25:23.elections and surprised a lot of people by becoming third. She
:25:23. > :25:30.appeals to a traditional Conservative vote. But I think it
:25:30. > :25:35.will be difficult to replicate that 14%. She does not have the element
:25:36. > :25:39.of surprise this time. It is a much more congested field and a much
:25:39. > :25:43.more high-profile field. She has contested a number of election
:25:43. > :25:49.since that point. She was successful in one European election
:25:49. > :25:59.but since then she has failed to be elected. If she got seven or 8% of
:25:59. > :26:01.
:26:01. > :26:06.the vote she would be doing well. The other candidates. What are
:26:06. > :26:14.their chances? Made a day this is probably a dark
:26:14. > :26:18.horse. If Michael Higgins will fall short, what many Davies. The poll
:26:18. > :26:23.from last Sunday showed her getting a lot of transfers from a lot of
:26:23. > :26:28.candidates. Middle Ireland likes her. People say her campaign has
:26:28. > :26:34.been drab and dull but it is a solid campaign, well organised, and
:26:34. > :26:42.she does appeal to that middle Ireland vote. She is another woman.
:26:42. > :26:47.Her name is Mary like the two previous presidents. The other
:26:47. > :26:55.candidate is having a difficult campaign. Some Gallacher probably
:26:55. > :27:01.has the best message. I do not know how credible it is but his campaign
:27:01. > :27:05.does not seem to be taking off. Is there much sense of excitement?
:27:05. > :27:10.I do not think that is the right word. Any excitement there was was
:27:10. > :27:16.probably crashed by seeing seven ten-minute interviews with each
:27:16. > :27:19.candidate yesterday on TV. It is an unwieldy field. A lot of interest
:27:19. > :27:23.has been generated by David Norris's attempt to get back into
:27:23. > :27:29.the race but certainly I think it has distracted from the more real
:27:29. > :27:34.and pressing problems down here. Ultimately, it is not the most
:27:34. > :27:39.significant job here. It is largely ceremonial and what it will come
:27:39. > :27:45.down to is, who is the best person to represent Ireland abroad? Who
:27:45. > :27:51.will look good standing beside the Queen, for example? It is largely
:27:51. > :27:55.about personality. While it might of been a most exciting race,
:27:55. > :27:59.previous presidential contests have been nasty, dirty and better and I
:27:59. > :28:03.would not be surprised if it turns out like this.
:28:03. > :28:13.That is where we'll leave it this time. We will be back at the usual
:28:13. > :28:15.
:28:15. > :28:21.time next week. Goodbye. His two claims not enough for you?
:28:21. > :28:30.I am like a male version of Rehana. I cannot sing but I have... I have
:28:30. > :28:37.been shouted at. The DUP doing their bit for feminism, telling one