0:00:25 > 0:00:29On row upon row of shelves in libraries like this one,
0:00:29 > 0:00:31in the heart of the House of Commons,
0:00:31 > 0:00:34there are books on philosophy, society and politics.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37But, you know, there are only a very few authors who have managed
0:00:37 > 0:00:41to combine all three disciplines and seen their ideas adopted
0:00:41 > 0:00:43and sometimes put into practice.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Now working as a political journalist at a time
0:00:45 > 0:00:49when politics is viewed with such scepticism, we asked some famous
0:00:49 > 0:00:51faces to choose those political thinkers
0:00:51 > 0:00:53they think really are worth celebrating.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56In this programme, we're going to look at some of those who've
0:00:56 > 0:00:58built on the ideas of the past
0:00:58 > 0:01:01and made a modern contribution to how our politics works,
0:01:01 > 0:01:05even if in our first instance that means tearing it all down
0:01:05 > 0:01:07and starting again.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22London's trashy, trendy Soho with its bars
0:01:22 > 0:01:24and boutiques is not the first place that comes to mind
0:01:24 > 0:01:27when you think of Karl Marx, but he'd be very at home here.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30He was at home here. He lived in this building in the 1850s,
0:01:30 > 0:01:34and London became the communist capital of the world at the time.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37I'm off to meet a man who not only thinks Marx is much maligned,
0:01:37 > 0:01:39but is still relevant today.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43That's quite hard to do for 21st century society.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47When the man was writing here, exiled from Paris in the 1850s,
0:01:47 > 0:01:49but my guest wants to drag him
0:01:49 > 0:01:52from museum relic to modern relevance, via the pub.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58So come on, then, why do you like Marx so much?
0:01:58 > 0:02:01To be honest, Giles, I could hardly avoid him growing up.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04I've got four generations of family who were involved in some
0:02:04 > 0:02:08sort of radical politics, more than a few copies of Karl Marx's books
0:02:08 > 0:02:11- were lying around when I was growing up.- Actually, that's quite apt,
0:02:11 > 0:02:13because we're sat in the Museum Tavern, opposite
0:02:13 > 0:02:16the British Museum in London, and that's where he wrote Das Kapital.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18But he's often more comfortable sat in the pub.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20He certainly liked his drink, Marx. He's not the dour,
0:02:20 > 0:02:24old crusty philosopher I think a lot of people think of him as.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26He went on these infamous pub crawls.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30He's once reputed to have smashed a mirror in this very pub with
0:02:30 > 0:02:31a bar stool, for example.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34He was chased by police officers because of his drunken antics.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Of course, it's not that that makes me so interested in Marx,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40it's his ideas. I think, actually, a lot of them are still relevant today.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43I'll give you one example - alienation.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46It's this idea that by working for someone else,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49you lose control over your own life, your own destiny, if you like.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51You lose a bit of your own humanity.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I think today whether you work in a call centre or an office,
0:02:54 > 0:02:56you can certainly drink to that.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58- As Karl Marx would say, Prost.- Prost.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04Dr Elizabeth Frazer, fellow in politics at New College Oxford, our
0:03:04 > 0:03:09in-house expert says, "Like him or loathe him, Marx is a huge figure."
0:03:09 > 0:03:12If you want an idea of how big Marx is,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16then he's the one who's got an -ism with his name in front of it.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21He's the only person for whom you can be a Marxist.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24But criticism of Marx is extensive, from the academic
0:03:24 > 0:03:27and economic to the enraged and impassioned.
0:03:27 > 0:03:34Marx is criticised for exactly the reason that his admirers admire him.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38According to him, it's production that explains everything else,
0:03:38 > 0:03:42and many of his critics say that's just plain wrong.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45There's another issue, which is that he
0:03:45 > 0:03:50thought about the role of the Communist Party in a way that
0:03:50 > 0:03:54with hindsight we can see enabled Lenin to
0:03:54 > 0:03:59develop his idea of the vanguard party, and that opened up
0:03:59 > 0:04:04the authoritarian state party systems of the Soviet era.
0:04:07 > 0:04:08That's clearly something to put to a fan,
0:04:08 > 0:04:11but not before I've shown him something
0:04:11 > 0:04:12at the Marx Memorial Library.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16There you are, Owen - Communist Manifesto.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Four decades after it was first published,
0:04:18 > 0:04:20but still, that's the 1888 edition.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23Which is extraordinary, cos that's only five years after Marx died
0:04:23 > 0:04:24and Engels himself was still alive.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28Don't forget, this is the second most read book on Earth after
0:04:28 > 0:04:31- the Bible itself. - But isn't that the problem?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33The Communist Manifesto, the connection to Marx.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37It means of all thinkers, he's the one that gets the charge -
0:04:37 > 0:04:40you're responsible for the death of millions of people.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43But blaming Marx for the Stalinist totalitarian regimes which
0:04:43 > 0:04:46killed millions of people, it's a bit like blaming Jesus for the Crusades.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50There's absolutely nothing in his work whatsoever which backs
0:04:50 > 0:04:52the Gulags, the Stalinist police state.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55But there is lots in there about revolution.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58Absolutely. But don't forget Marx was writing at a time of despots
0:04:58 > 0:05:01and autocrats that dominated the European continent.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05Even in Britain, there still wasn't universal suffrage even for men.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08What Marx actually later argued was that
0:05:08 > 0:05:10if you had universal suffrage for men,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14you could have a democratic, peaceful transition to socialism because
0:05:14 > 0:05:19it would allow a majority of working people to be elected to parliament.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26So here we are, Highgate Cemetery.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30Anyone who's seen it, Marx's grave, I think it's a fairly big monument.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33That's the funny thing. Originally it was only a very small rock.
0:05:33 > 0:05:34Marx was a modest man,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37only a very few people actually even turned up to his funeral.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41It was only the 1950s that this huge extravagant monument
0:05:41 > 0:05:43we know today was actually put up.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47So there he is.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53What relevance does Marx have to our politics today, do you think?
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Isn't it all a bit over?
0:05:55 > 0:05:57You don't have to be an armed revolutionary or
0:05:57 > 0:06:00even on the left to think that this was a pretty prescient bloke.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03He predicted globalisation, he wrote of the need for capitalists to
0:06:03 > 0:06:07constantly go across the globe for ever-expanding markets.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11He wrote how capitalism lurched constantly from crisis to crisis,
0:06:11 > 0:06:16and he also predicted that capitalism would create a huge working class.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19If you look on a global scale, that's exactly what has happened.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21If you want to understand the world,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24if you're interested in social justice, you can't ignore Karl Marx.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Marx inspired a revolution, but Peter Kropotkin who lived
0:06:34 > 0:06:37through it was an anarchist not a communist.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48I'll make a bet that most people think
0:06:48 > 0:06:50they know what an anarchist is
0:06:50 > 0:06:52and wouldn't expect to find out about one
0:06:52 > 0:06:55at the Royal Geographical Society in London,
0:06:55 > 0:06:58but I'm here in Kensington to meet the editor of the Idler Magazine,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02who thinks the work of Peter Alexeyevich Kropotkin can
0:07:02 > 0:07:05tell us all about how to live our lives better.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11- Tom, how are you? - Giles, hi. Very well.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Why have I come to the Royal Geographical Society to find
0:07:14 > 0:07:16out about an anarchist?
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Well, Kropotkin was a fascinating character. He was a Russian prince.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24In his teens he joined the army and he served as page to the tsar,
0:07:24 > 0:07:27and in his 20s he became an explorer. He was a geographer.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32He did five-year trips across the mountains of Siberia, which he
0:07:32 > 0:07:35wrote up in these learned journals and created fantastic,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38beautiful maps which are still in use today here.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Later in life, he became the centuries foremost proponent
0:07:43 > 0:07:45of anarchism as a social theory.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47OK, so why do you like him so much?
0:07:47 > 0:07:51I like him because I was researching a book called How To Be Free,
0:07:51 > 0:07:56which was trying to find out how we could inject more
0:07:56 > 0:07:59freedom into our everyday lives and free our spirits.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02I read Kropotkin's book Mutual Aid.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Firstly, it's a very well-written book.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08The first half is a scientific study of cooperation among animals.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10He then goes on to talk about human beings,
0:08:10 > 0:08:15and it's full of inspiring ideas on how we can improve our leisure
0:08:15 > 0:08:19time and improve our every day lives and take control of our lives.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22If you think this is a funny place to find an anarchist philosopher,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25let me show you where he actually lived when he lived in England.
0:08:25 > 0:08:26All right, let's do that.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33When you said come and see where he lived in London, I didn't
0:08:33 > 0:08:37think we'd end up in suburban Bromley. But this is where he lived.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Blue plaque says, "Theorist of anarchism."
0:08:40 > 0:08:41What is his theory of anarchism?
0:08:41 > 0:08:44His theory of anarchism is essentially that he
0:08:44 > 0:08:47is against authority in whatever form it might exist.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50He's against the potentially tyrannical power of the state,
0:08:50 > 0:08:53which forces its citizens to do things they don't want to do.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55He's against big business.
0:08:55 > 0:09:00Both state and big corporations take away our individual freedoms.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03When we're left alone, he says, and we're left to be free,
0:09:03 > 0:09:07we cooperate voluntarily and we create wonderful things.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10He's about as far away as you could get from the popular conception
0:09:10 > 0:09:14of the anarchist as a Molotov cocktail-throwing,
0:09:14 > 0:09:15bus-stop-smashing guy.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19There's a problem in anarchism which is that the idea is
0:09:19 > 0:09:24that in mutual society, we aren't subject to any coercion,
0:09:24 > 0:09:26but critics want to say that just
0:09:26 > 0:09:29because the person who's getting you to do what
0:09:29 > 0:09:34they want to do is your equal, that's no less coercive than
0:09:34 > 0:09:38if someone who's above you gets you to do what they want to do.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Come down this alleyway.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48'Tucked away is the Freedom Press bookshop he helped found,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51'and he's still very much on sale today.'
0:09:51 > 0:09:55Tom, you don't think we should be afraid of the concept of anarchism.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Not at all. It's the most friendly of all the political philosophies.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01It basically believes that people are good,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03and left to their own devices, they'll do good things.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06He does go back to Russia, but we shouldn't make a mistake -
0:10:06 > 0:10:08he's not a communist, he's not a Bolshevik.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10No, he's not at all a Bolshevik.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14He's very much against any form of state socialism
0:10:14 > 0:10:18because it's a form of power and it takes away individual freedoms.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21He feared it would lead to totalitarianism, which it does.
0:10:21 > 0:10:22Now he went back to Russia.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24I can't take you to Russia cos we can't afford it,
0:10:24 > 0:10:27but I've got the next best thing. Come with me.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29Thank you very much indeed.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31Tom, I couldn't take you to Russia,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34but Abracadabra Russian restaurant in London will do.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38The Russian we're talking about was writing in the late 19th century,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40a world very different from ours.
0:10:40 > 0:10:41Is he relevant to today?
0:10:41 > 0:10:43Well, he's actually strikingly relevant
0:10:43 > 0:10:46because we complain about not enjoying our work.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50We say we're stuck in a boring job and people want to escape from it.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55We also complain about a government which we feel has become too big
0:10:55 > 0:10:58and too controlling, so what Kropotkin is saying is take some
0:10:58 > 0:11:01responsibility back, take some power back.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04It could be something like growing your own vegetables or organising
0:11:04 > 0:11:08a cricket match with the neighbours, these kind of creative acts.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11He's not just making a manifesto for just enjoying yourself,
0:11:11 > 0:11:13he thinks this will make a better society.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16He thinks this will make a society of responsible human beings,
0:11:16 > 0:11:17and that's better for everybody.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21I'm going to take control of the food chain. Have a blini.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25Kropotkin's anarchy was non-aggressive and changed ideas.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27Gandhi's non-aggression changed nations.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39You know the thing about being a politician
0:11:39 > 0:11:42and a wax figure in Madame Tussauds is you're only really relevant
0:11:42 > 0:11:43because you're in power.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46You're a here today, gone tomorrow politician,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48unless of course you're a true icon.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Over here, there is one,
0:11:50 > 0:11:56still relevant in 2014 even though he died in 1948 - Mohandas K Gandhi.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Not only a prolific political philosopher and writer,
0:11:59 > 0:12:03but because he lived that philosophy, he managed to change the
0:12:03 > 0:12:08course of history for four important countries, including our own.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10But I'm off to meet a Scottish comedian and broadcaster who
0:12:10 > 0:12:14thinks Gandhi's influence goes even further than that.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18NEWSREEL ANNOUNCER: 'So to his Poplar home where we leave this bizarre little man whose
0:12:18 > 0:12:22'coming has caused so much comment, complete with loincloth,
0:12:22 > 0:12:24'spinning wheel and goats' milk.'
0:12:26 > 0:12:27Hardeep, good to see you.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30- Hey, how are you, Giles?- So you've brought me to Bow.- Where else?
0:12:30 > 0:12:32And we're talking about Gandhi.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36I gather he was here in 1931 for a huge conference,
0:12:36 > 0:12:38loads of the countries that were part of the Empire invited.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40It's up in the West End and he's here.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Well, that sort of epitomises the man.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45He was offered to stay with the king, but being the man of the people
0:12:45 > 0:12:47that he is, he decided to come to the East End,
0:12:47 > 0:12:49to the gritty East End with the real people.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53That kind of marks him out from other great statesmen and leaders.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57They've actually got his room here where he stayed, kept as was.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00- Simplicity is the key.- Absolutely. Would you like to have a look?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I've got a little loincloth and spinning wheel
0:13:02 > 0:13:04- and some goats' milk for you. - Yeah, thank you very much.
0:13:04 > 0:13:05No expense spent.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08Mr Gandhi will have this for his friends
0:13:08 > 0:13:11and be able to meet them and have talks when he likes,
0:13:11 > 0:13:13just as we do.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Here we are. This is the balcony.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Where he was staying in 1931, pretty much as we've just seen.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22- Yep, and this Mahatma Gandhi's room, actually.- Yeah?
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Which I think says more about the man than anything else.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27The aesthetic life - few cushions on the floor, that's where slept,
0:13:27 > 0:13:28the spinning wheel.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30Sort of like a prison cell, which is
0:13:30 > 0:13:34kind of apt considering how much time he did spend in prison.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37What do you think is his basic philosophy, in a nutshell?
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Well, let's put it into context.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42India in the '40s, incredibly febrile.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44A war was being fought around the world.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45India had a choice -
0:13:45 > 0:13:49to have an armed uprising against empire or to find another way.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51Gandhi found that other way.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54What he did, particularly during the Salt Marches, Gandhiji
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and the rest walked right up to the line and were
0:13:57 > 0:14:02battered down by the sticks of the Indian members of the British Army.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05They went back the next day and were battered down again.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08I think what Gandhiji showed is there's only so many times you can
0:14:08 > 0:14:11hit a man with a stick before you realise it's pointless,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14you're losing the moral argument.
0:14:14 > 0:14:15I think that's the point.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17He never lost the morality of his argument.
0:14:17 > 0:14:18It's interesting.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21All of that influence is demonstrated in paperwork
0:14:21 > 0:14:24from the British, that they don't know how to deal with him.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26I can show you some documents which prove it.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34First, he's very worried about state power, laws and policing,
0:14:34 > 0:14:39which he thinks will always have to use violence.
0:14:39 > 0:14:40Secondly, of course,
0:14:40 > 0:14:47he sees the British imperialism as an archetypically violent,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51oppressive system, and he thinks the only way to answer violence
0:14:51 > 0:14:55is with non-violent resistance.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Got it. Let's have a look at this.
0:15:08 > 0:15:13Now this is basically at the National Archives -
0:15:13 > 0:15:16records of what the government were making of Gandhi's
0:15:16 > 0:15:19campaign for Indian independence.
0:15:19 > 0:15:25In 1940, they're all just reporting back his intransigence, if you like.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28He's very clear, it's independence or nothing.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32But then, by 1943, they've just arrested him
0:15:32 > 0:15:35and they're saying he can't correspond with Jinnah,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37of course the founder of Pakistan,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39they're just not going to let him talk to him.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42So it's clear that Gandhi is crucial to Indian independence,
0:15:42 > 0:15:46but it's not the India that he wants that he gets.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49I believe without Gandhiji there would be no independent India.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52He was absolutely instrumental to the entire process.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54But what's perhaps not as well known is the work
0:15:54 > 0:15:58he was doing in terms of keeping the internal body politic coherent -
0:15:58 > 0:16:02stopping the factional communal violence between the Hindus
0:16:02 > 0:16:03and the Muslims.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06It was a dying regret of his that partition occurred
0:16:06 > 0:16:09and it wasn't the India, the united subcontinent he wanted.
0:16:09 > 0:16:14But what's fascinating about Gandhiji was he managed all this change,
0:16:14 > 0:16:17all this influence but without being a formal politician.
0:16:17 > 0:16:18He never held office.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21Now I know it might sound cheesy, but I'm going to take you to
0:16:21 > 0:16:23an Indian restaurant, but there is a point to it.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26I don't really like all that foreign muck(!)
0:16:29 > 0:16:31- See why?- Ah!
0:16:35 > 0:16:36Come on in, have a pew.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Hardeep, I brought you to Gandhi's restaurant.
0:16:38 > 0:16:39It's not just the name, though.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42This is a restaurant frequented by prime ministers -
0:16:42 > 0:16:46John Major, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling come here.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48The Prime Minister of Bangladesh has been here.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Does Gandhi have any relevance to modern politics?
0:16:51 > 0:16:54I don't think there is an international figure
0:16:54 > 0:16:58from recent history that's had a greater impact on politics.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00If you trace the narrative through-line
0:17:00 > 0:17:04from Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela,
0:17:04 > 0:17:10what's been happening recently in Burma, that passive resistance -
0:17:10 > 0:17:14not stepping down but neither stepping too far up has proven
0:17:14 > 0:17:18to work time and time again.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21I only imagine that if we had people with that Gandhian philosophy
0:17:21 > 0:17:27around in Palestine, perhaps, and Israel, there might be peace there.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31There may not have been a genocide in Rwanda.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33There may not be the Crimean situation now.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38But really I think what we should do to honour Mahatma Gandhi
0:17:38 > 0:17:40is have a small vegetarian snack.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43I'm not about to tell you how to eat a small Indian snack.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45The last thing I want to do is a poppadom preach.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50GILES LAUGHS I'm in trouble deep.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Gandhi wanted little personal wealth,
0:17:54 > 0:17:56but for Hayek, money was everything.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06You know, I think it's fair to say that these days most of us
0:18:06 > 0:18:09have enough trouble managing our own bank accounts let alone
0:18:09 > 0:18:12an economy, but for the people in this building, the Treasury,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16and those outside who are economists, that is their job.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19I'm going to meet a financial analyst and blogger who thinks
0:18:19 > 0:18:23you can't do that job unless you've studied the work of Friedrich Hayek.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33- Louise, nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you too, Giles.
0:18:33 > 0:18:37We are of course in the Institute of Economic Affairs,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39a body which Hayek inspired the founding of,
0:18:39 > 0:18:41and we're sat at Hayek's kitchen table.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44- I know.- Having a cup of tea. - It's quite exciting.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46Now why do you like him so much?
0:18:46 > 0:18:50I recognise a fellow fighter.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53He was an Austrian immigrant to this country and his family had
0:18:53 > 0:18:57suffered the deprivations between the walls of Vienna.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02He came with little money, and yet he took on Keynes -
0:19:02 > 0:19:06wealth, privilege, education, establishment, Cambridge.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10This Austrian upstart took on Keynes.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12For that, he's incredibly brave.
0:19:14 > 0:19:19But, also, when it became apparent the world fell in love with Keynes,
0:19:19 > 0:19:22he stuck to what he really, really believed in.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25It was an unpopular message, but he kept saying it.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28For that, you have to admire him.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Let's go to the LSE, where he starts his lecturing career
0:19:31 > 0:19:33and his British economic journey, if you like.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Yes, you can finish your tea first.
0:19:36 > 0:19:37I will, thank you.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47So we're in the London School of Economics' old theatre where
0:19:47 > 0:19:51Hayek used to lecture, but it's quite astonishing that they gave
0:19:51 > 0:19:55him a job, because apparently his early attempts were pretty turgid.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Incomprehensible is also a good word.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01He had a strong Austrian accent,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06he spoke in long sentences with lots of sub-clauses and he drew
0:20:06 > 0:20:10these marvellous triangular diagrams that few in the audience understood.
0:20:10 > 0:20:15I'm very honoured to stand on the Hayekian stage
0:20:15 > 0:20:18but his entry to the LSE wasn't that great.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20So, if he is so incomprehensible,
0:20:20 > 0:20:24- can you explain what it is he's trying to tell us?- Three things.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28He believed firmly in free markets,
0:20:28 > 0:20:33he thought that economies were highly complex and that therefore
0:20:33 > 0:20:36government interference would always end up badly.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39In fact, when they did interfere, the outcome was worse than
0:20:39 > 0:20:41if they had done nothing at all.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44Well, this audience were listening to him in the '30s,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46it's not for another 50 years that someone really adopted him,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48and to show you how important that is,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52I need to take you to the old heart of Torydom on Earth.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01So, Louise, we have come to what is now
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Europe House in the heart of Westminster but back in the days
0:21:04 > 0:21:08of Margaret Thatcher, this of course was Conservative Central Office.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11And, of course, Margaret Thatcher is crucial to Hayek's story, isn't she?
0:21:11 > 0:21:15Absolutely. Hayek was ignored for decades.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18Everyone went mad for Keynes and his ideals.
0:21:18 > 0:21:23And then we had the economic crisis of the '70s, stagflation, and Keynes
0:21:23 > 0:21:27was maybe not such a great solution to the world's economic problems.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31And what Thatcher did was go back to Hayek and, in particular,
0:21:31 > 0:21:34it's this book, Hayek's The Constitution Of Liberty
0:21:34 > 0:21:37and apparently she came into this building,
0:21:37 > 0:21:41slammed it down on the table in a very Thatcher way and said,
0:21:41 > 0:21:44"This is what we believe", which is
0:21:44 > 0:21:48fabulous and it's all about rolling back the stage, privatising
0:21:48 > 0:21:52state-run businesses and introducing competition as much as possible.
0:21:52 > 0:21:57And so everybody starts studying him, his reputation is enhanced but
0:21:57 > 0:22:01I guess the real question is now, of course, is he relevant to today?
0:22:01 > 0:22:03For Hayek, politics is bad.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07Whether we think of politics as governments trying to do the best
0:22:07 > 0:22:10they can or whether we think of politics as politicians being
0:22:10 > 0:22:16snakes, for him, both ways, politics is bound up with coercion
0:22:16 > 0:22:19and it's always got that element of violence in it.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24For Hayek, economics is the realm of freedom.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26Hayek died in 1992,
0:22:26 > 0:22:31never seeing the spectacular financial meltdown of 2008 onwards.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34But having written a book on one form of economic theory,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37does he have something to offer us today?
0:22:37 > 0:22:39I brought us back to the Treasury because it seems most relevant to me
0:22:39 > 0:22:43that what they're trying to do is clear up the mess if they can
0:22:43 > 0:22:45and trying to prevent it happening again.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47Does Hayek have anything to teach them?
0:22:47 > 0:22:50Oh, without a shadow of a doubt.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52None of the big economists have all the answers,
0:22:52 > 0:22:56they all have something relevant to say - Keynes, Hayek and Friedman.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58But what's interesting in this crisis,
0:22:58 > 0:23:03America may have gone Keynes' stimulus, but here in Britain,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06we have chosen to cut spending and impose austerity.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08Very much Hayekian principles.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12What I really like though are some of his comments that he wrote or
0:23:12 > 0:23:14quotes that he made 70, 80 years ago
0:23:14 > 0:23:17and I've chosen one and that quote is, he said,
0:23:17 > 0:23:21"If you want to avoid the excesses of the business cycle,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25"banks should keep a close check on their lending."
0:23:25 > 0:23:30Oh, if only they had here in the UK, we'd have saved ourselves
0:23:30 > 0:23:3470, 80 billion of taxpayers' money so that, as far as I'm concerned,
0:23:34 > 0:23:36is the reason that you should all vote for Hayek.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38That's told you.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Hayek had views on money but for Ayn Rand,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46it was who made it that mattered.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00These days, there is a huge market for books about unleashing
0:24:00 > 0:24:03the power of the self, the potential of the individual
0:24:03 > 0:24:05and that is essentially the philosophy of the American
0:24:05 > 0:24:09author Ayn Rand and I've come to Borough Market in London to
0:24:09 > 0:24:11meet a commentator and broadcaster who says
0:24:11 > 0:24:15he can explain her philosophy through the medium of lettuce.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22So, Charlie, why do you like Ayn Rand
0:24:22 > 0:24:24and what does she have to do with lettuce?
0:24:24 > 0:24:27Well, first off, The Fountainhead was a book that just changed my life,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29it was a book I could not put down.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32But as to the lettuce, my father was a greengrocer.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35Maybe you've had this happen, where a parent says something that seems
0:24:35 > 0:24:38so innocuous at the time, it holds great meaning.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41He was stacking lettuce one day in his shop and he turned to me
0:24:41 > 0:24:43and said, "You know why I made a pyramid?"
0:24:43 > 0:24:48I said, "No, Dad." He said, "Because I can. I'm my own boss.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50"No-one tells me how to stack the lettuce."
0:24:50 > 0:24:54So, that simple act of stacking the lettuce was so Randian in that he was
0:24:54 > 0:24:58the author of his own destiny, no-one told him how to stack the lettuce.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01OK, that was a pyramid of lettuce.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04Let's take you to a steel and glass pyramid not far from here,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06the Shard, which also has a lot to do with Rand.
0:25:06 > 0:25:07OK.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10Ayn Rand was a Russian emigree.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12Fiercely anti-Communist,
0:25:12 > 0:25:16unconventional in both her thoughts and lifestyle, even her fans found
0:25:16 > 0:25:20her tricky, but Dr Elizabeth Frazer of Oxford University says her books,
0:25:20 > 0:25:24The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, were powerful.
0:25:24 > 0:25:25She's inspirational.
0:25:25 > 0:25:30Her vision of free-market society has inspired so many people.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Very, very controversial.
0:25:32 > 0:25:36But if there were a prize for the author who's got the most people
0:25:36 > 0:25:41saying, "I read this book and it changed my life", she would win it.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Well, Charlie, we are now surrounded by the most incredible
0:25:51 > 0:25:54view from the Aqua Shard restaurant in the Shard in London.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58But I'm just wondering what was Ayn Rand's world view?
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Her world view would have been the people that built this view,
0:26:01 > 0:26:02that built the Shard,
0:26:02 > 0:26:06she loved heroic men of vision that had intellect,
0:26:06 > 0:26:09and this building in particular, if you go up, it's a cathedral,
0:26:09 > 0:26:12not to God, she was an atheist,
0:26:12 > 0:26:18but a cathedral to the powers of mankind, men were her gods.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20She tended to present philosophical ideas as
0:26:20 > 0:26:25though they were her own invention and that really estranged
0:26:25 > 0:26:29serious thinkers and serious politicians as well.
0:26:29 > 0:26:35It was extraordinary that she refused to cooperate politically,
0:26:35 > 0:26:39including with people who really liked her ideas and would have
0:26:39 > 0:26:44liked her to be a figurehead for new conservatism in the 20th century.
0:26:44 > 0:26:48She was very sectarian and capable of being very nasty.
0:26:49 > 0:26:50However nasty though,
0:26:50 > 0:26:53how many other political philosophers have
0:26:53 > 0:26:57had their books turned into a movie, with its enigmatic catchphrase,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00"Who is John Galt?"
0:27:00 > 0:27:03My medal, your railway. It's us who move the world.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12Atlas Shrugged is all about railways,
0:27:12 > 0:27:15steel and building a bridge but a little bit like the one we're
0:27:15 > 0:27:18standing next to which is a little ugly, a little grubby.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20People seem to think that Randian philosophy is a bit the same,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23supremely selfish. Is that fair?
0:27:23 > 0:27:26No, not if you define selfishness the way Ayn Rand did.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30Selfishness is about the self, being true to your own ideals,
0:27:30 > 0:27:33taking care of yourself first and foremost,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36not living off the state, not living off of others.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39I think it's a more nobler way and if you could do that, think of
0:27:39 > 0:27:44how the welfare roles would shrivel up, how society would be better off.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47I think it's a far better philosophy than living off the state.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53Now, it's not just that many wouldn't agree with that,
0:27:53 > 0:27:54but in October 2011,
0:27:54 > 0:27:57some were prepared to camp out on the streets in front
0:27:57 > 0:28:01of St Paul's Cathedral to demonstrate their opposition
0:28:01 > 0:28:05to such views but actually, Rand herself predicted all that.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07So, if you look over to the side of us
0:28:07 > 0:28:11is where the protesters were, the uncut, the 99%,
0:28:11 > 0:28:15and she described in her books this dystopian state, this welfare state.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17The leechers and the moochers,
0:28:17 > 0:28:20the moochers were the ones wanting the money, the entitlement state.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23The leechers were people like the church or the government demanding
0:28:23 > 0:28:27on a moral imperative that companies pay more tax and give more money.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30It's easy to be altruistic with other peoples' money.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33This was a dystopian welfare state that she described in her books,
0:28:33 > 0:28:34the collectivism that she hated,
0:28:34 > 0:28:39but the answer also that she did give was it's trade, it's commerce,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41it's jobs, it's a flourishing economy -
0:28:41 > 0:28:45that's what lifts people out of poverty, not giving them money.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48That's why Ayn Rand is relevant for today.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52By the way, who is John Galt?