:00:24. > :00:49.Nelson Mandela achieved what many people believed to be the
:00:50. > :00:54.impossible, to deliver from the violence and chaos from a country
:00:55. > :00:57.living with tensions, both between races and within the black
:00:58. > :01:01.community, a country that did not tear itself apart, but embarked on a
:01:02. > :01:05.new life as a democracy. That triumph made him a figure admired
:01:06. > :01:10.throughout the world, admired for his courage, his resoluteness and
:01:11. > :01:15.his magnanimity in victory. He offered the world a vision that
:01:16. > :01:21.sometimes life can turn out for the better and that to believe that is
:01:22. > :01:24.the right way to live. It's the inspiration that brought thousands
:01:25. > :01:29.of South Africans to Johannesburg today for the national memorial
:01:30. > :01:34.event in the huge football stadium just outside Soweto, that sprawling
:01:35. > :01:39.black township where Mandela spent most of his adult life until he was
:01:40. > :01:44.imprisoned for over 27 years when just 44 years old. Rain in South
:01:45. > :01:49.Africa, particularly at a funeral, is considered to be a blessing from
:01:50. > :01:55.God. It may have meant the stadium wasn't completely full today. Inside
:01:56. > :02:02.the stadium, before the service started, a choir of voices sang in
:02:03. > :02:12.praise of the man they call Madiba or Tata - Father. There were a host
:02:13. > :02:16.of famous faces here, nearly 100 heads of state, heads of government,
:02:17. > :02:26.President Obama, the British Prime Minister, David Cameron, Tony Blair,
:02:27. > :02:32.distinguished figure of one man who was on Robben Island with Nelson
:02:33. > :02:37.Mandela. His lawyer at the trials. FW de Klerk, the former President of
:02:38. > :02:46.South Africa. And the familiar figure of Desmond Tutu and then
:02:47. > :02:50.Winnie Mandela, his second wife. So, here we are sat in the dark in
:02:51. > :02:55.Pretoria. Behind us, the wonderful view of the Union Buildings where,
:02:56. > :03:00.tomorrow, Nelson Mandela's body will lie in state for the ordinary people
:03:01. > :03:05.of South Africa to pay tribute. I have three guests with me in the
:03:06. > :03:19.studio, all of whom - you were all there today, weren't you? Yes. Let
:03:20. > :03:24.me introduce them. On my left, the partner of Steve Beco. In February
:03:25. > :03:34.of this year, she started a new political party, to chivvy the ANC.
:03:35. > :03:38.Next to her, a man who was deeply involved in the traditional element
:03:39. > :03:52.in the services that take place at the weekend, but is also an ANC MP
:03:53. > :03:57.in Parliament. Then, a woman who is very popular among the black
:03:58. > :04:00.community for the courage she showed during the apartheid years. You were
:04:01. > :04:10.banned from singing some of your hymns? I was banned on my return
:04:11. > :04:16.after performing on the frontline. What happened if you were a banned
:04:17. > :04:21.person under apartheid? As a singer, it was a bit of a dud for me. I
:04:22. > :04:29.wasn't allowed to be heard on radio, or on television. Nothing. I was
:04:30. > :04:36.silenced. How did you know Mandela? What do you remember of him? Like
:04:37. > :04:45.everybody who grew up in South Africa, I heard about him. I read
:04:46. > :04:53.about him. It so happened on the day when I was celebrating my
:04:54. > :04:59.graduation, at home, I got a surprise telegram coming from Robben
:05:00. > :05:04.Island with Madiba congratulating me for having achieved... Because he
:05:05. > :05:10.knew your family? He did know my family. My grandfather - actually,
:05:11. > :05:23.my father and his sister, one of his sisters, grew up with him. You, of
:05:24. > :05:29.course, have endlessly been described as Steve's partner. He
:05:30. > :05:34.died in police custody. Have you been a supporter of the ANC, has
:05:35. > :05:41.that been your position, politically? My position,
:05:42. > :05:47.politically, has always been that of an active citizen, an activist
:05:48. > :05:55.student and later an active professional. I never belonged to
:05:56. > :06:00.any political party and the ANC's association is merely because I'm
:06:01. > :06:05.very close to many people who are members of the ANC. Of course, I was
:06:06. > :06:10.very close to Mr Mandela. We are going to... I never carried a card
:06:11. > :06:14.for the ANC. You were there today. What did you make of it? We are
:06:15. > :06:20.going to see some scenes in a moment. What did you think of it? It
:06:21. > :06:24.made me realise that with great leadership, this country can come
:06:25. > :06:32.together. That's what Madiba did today. For me, even upon his death,
:06:33. > :06:36.we were privy to a country coming together under extreme
:06:37. > :06:40.circumstances, extreme weather. It's just the wonderment of this man that
:06:41. > :06:47.manages again and again to pull us together. This - let's have a look
:06:48. > :06:51.at the stadium where today's memorial was held. It's become an
:06:52. > :06:58.iconic location. It did have a particular meaning for Nelson
:06:59. > :07:05.Mandela himself. The FNB Stadium was opened in 1989. Less than a year
:07:06. > :07:10.later, huge crowds came here to welcome Mandela home two days after
:07:11. > :07:16.he was set free. No football game in South Africa ever drew crowds like
:07:17. > :07:18.these. 48 hours after Nelson Mandela's release, finally the
:07:19. > :07:34.prospect of seeing their hero on home ground. My return to Soweto
:07:35. > :07:43.fills my heart with joy. Africa! Africa! Mandela came back in 1993
:07:44. > :07:50.for two painful events - the funeral of his ANC friend Oliver Tambo and
:07:51. > :07:54.of Chris Hani, the leader of the ANC's military wing, who had been
:07:55. > :08:02.murdered. We want an election date now. The following year with Mandela
:08:03. > :08:07.President, the FNB Stadium was host to the African Cup of Nations. South
:08:08. > :08:12.Africa reached the final and with only 17 minutes left before the
:08:13. > :08:17.whistle, Mark Williams scored two goals in two minutes. The victory
:08:18. > :08:22.proved euphoric. One of the unifying moments in a country obsessed with
:08:23. > :08:28.sport. South Africans of all races celebrated their nation's triumph.
:08:29. > :08:34.In 2010, the stadium was completely rebuilt for the World Cup, played
:08:35. > :08:44.here in South Africa. It was seen as the symbol of a revitalised nation.
:08:45. > :08:48.The closing ceremony of the World Cup, just three years ago, saw
:08:49. > :08:57.Mandela's last official public appearance. We will hear some of the
:08:58. > :09:02.speeches that were made this morning there. It does seem to me there is a
:09:03. > :09:06.lot of - there are obvious things that were said about Mandela, about
:09:07. > :09:11.his charm, about his courage. People don't so often talk about his
:09:12. > :09:16.political astuteness. He seems to me to have been extremely clever and
:09:17. > :09:24.cunning in his politics? Would you agree with that? Absolutely. He was
:09:25. > :09:31.a studied strategist of political engagement. He cultivated that
:09:32. > :09:38.during his imprisonment. He read every book that was to be read about
:09:39. > :09:43.the Afrikaans people. He read many biographies and he got to know each
:09:44. > :09:53.and every one of the people that he engaged. So when he talked to his
:09:54. > :09:58.jailors, he talked to them as fellow South Africans. When do you think it
:09:59. > :10:10.dawned on them that the Afrikaaner needed him as much as he needed
:10:11. > :10:15.them? What he did realise was the only way you could break an impasse
:10:16. > :10:23.was for you who stand to gain more from the breaking of the impasse to
:10:24. > :10:29.be willing to see the opportunities for compromise. You are asking
:10:30. > :10:34.people who are in power to share that power and you come from the
:10:35. > :10:43.outside and, therefore, you are the one who has to be willing to
:10:44. > :10:47.compromise but do so in a way that takes the collective much further.
:10:48. > :10:51.Hence his discussions with the ANC when he began talks with the
:10:52. > :10:55.government saying to them, "We must make the first step to talk to them.
:10:56. > :11:05.It is ridiculous not to." Them in the end coming around to agree to
:11:06. > :11:10.that. The point is that he did not get agreement to talk to the other
:11:11. > :11:17.side, which is one of the reasons why he asked to be put in solitary
:11:18. > :11:23.confinement because he understood the importance of the moment. That
:11:24. > :11:28.was the moment to talk. His peers and his comrades were not ready. He
:11:29. > :11:33.decided to lead from the front. None of them stopped him, it has to be
:11:34. > :11:38.said. Let's go - we will come back to this - the memorial service. It
:11:39. > :11:48.began with the singing of the National Anthem. "God Save Africa."
:11:49. > :11:57.# Nkosi sikelel' iAfrika. # Maluphakanyisw' uphondo lwayo.
:11:58. > :12:00.# Yizwa imithandazo yethu. # Nkosi sikelela, thina lusapho
:12:01. > :12:09.lwayo. # Morena boloka setjhaba sa heso.
:12:10. > :12:17.# O fedise dintwa la matshwenyeho. # O se boloke, O se boloke setjhaba
:12:18. > :12:19.sa heso. # Setjhaba sa South Afrika - South
:12:20. > :12:39.Afrika. On behalf of the President, I
:12:40. > :12:45.welcome all of you who have travelled from all corners of the
:12:46. > :12:54.world. I also extend warm words of welcome to our friends from all over
:12:55. > :12:59.the world and let us give Nelson Mandela's friends, as well as the
:13:00. > :13:04.friends of South Africa from all over the world, a round of South
:13:05. > :13:09.African warm welcome and say thank you for coming.
:13:10. > :13:22.We were not able to stop the rain. But this is how Nelson Mandela would
:13:23. > :13:27.have wanted to be sent off. These are blessings in our African
:13:28. > :13:32.tradition. When it rains when you are buried, it means that your Gods
:13:33. > :13:33.are welcoming you and the gates of heaven are most probably open as
:13:34. > :13:46.well. This occasion should make all of us
:13:47. > :13:55.to pause today and reflect on the life of Nelson Mandela. Today's
:13:56. > :14:02.memorial service should hopefully give each one of us together our
:14:03. > :14:09.memories of Nelson Mandela and on Sunday, we will bid him farewell in
:14:10. > :14:16.Qunu when we lay him to rest knowing that our memories of him will endure
:14:17. > :14:26.forever. I would like us now to do what he would have wanted us to do -
:14:27. > :14:27.that is to open this memorial service with an interfaith opening
:14:28. > :14:41.prayer. The prayers came from Chief Rabbi
:14:42. > :14:45.Warren Goldstein, a representative of the Muslim faith and the
:14:46. > :14:51.archbishop. In whose hands are the souls of the living and the dead,
:14:52. > :14:57.receive we beseech you in your great loving kindness the soul of Nelson
:14:58. > :15:02.Rolihlahla Mandela who has been gathered unto his people. Remember
:15:03. > :15:10.him for the righteousness which he has done. Your sun shall never more
:15:11. > :15:16.set, for the Lord God shall be your everlasting light and the days of
:15:17. > :15:25.your mourning shall be ended and let us say amen.
:15:26. > :15:35.Oh, supreme Lord. Lead us from untruth to truth.
:15:36. > :15:44.Like our father Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. Lead us from darkness to
:15:45. > :15:50.light, like our father, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. Lead us from
:15:51. > :15:53.death to immortality, like our father, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela.
:15:54. > :16:10.May he rest in peace. Amen. Our indebtedness to Madiba for his
:16:11. > :16:19.self--less efforts, in salvaging the nation and leading it to the path of
:16:20. > :16:27.peace, reconciliation and harmony. And laying the foundation of a free
:16:28. > :16:35.and prosperous South Africa. With this prayer, we ask, let us
:16:36. > :16:39.dedicate ourselves to the good ideals he strove to in his life.
:16:40. > :17:05.Amen. Creator, God, Lord of life and love,
:17:06. > :17:11.you hold the whole yun verse in your hands. Hell -- universe in your
:17:12. > :17:18.hands. Help us to draw on the lessons of our past and to build on
:17:19. > :17:24.the firm foundation that by your grace Madiba laid for us, give us
:17:25. > :17:30.courage to hold fast to his values, to follow the example of his
:17:31. > :17:36.practises and to share them with the world.
:17:37. > :17:37.May he rest in peace and rise in glory.
:17:38. > :18:01.Amen. # Da-da Madiba
:18:02. > :18:15.Nelson Mandela The national chair of the ANC, the
:18:16. > :18:39.African national Congress, who is cochairing this memorial event.
:18:40. > :18:54.We are here to mourn the great man, but also to celebrate a glorious
:18:55. > :19:04.life well lived. Today, more than any other is thankfulness for that
:19:05. > :19:07.wonderful life. A son of Africa Africa. A descendant of a great
:19:08. > :19:28.king. You will always be remembered. We are now going to call upon
:19:29. > :19:42.Madiba's grandchildren. Madiba had 18 grandchildren and 12 great
:19:43. > :19:49.grandchildren. We are going to call them, who are going to come and pay
:19:50. > :19:54.tribute to their grandfather and great grandfather. I call them to
:19:55. > :19:56.come to the stage to come and express their tributes to their
:19:57. > :20:13.grandfather. On behalf of the family I would like
:20:14. > :20:20.to thank all the heads of state that are here. Thank you. Madiba, the
:20:21. > :20:29.last walk. Struck by lightning bolts in the dead of night, day dazed and
:20:30. > :20:35.dis or disorientated, struggling to bid farewell to any mortal, caught
:20:36. > :20:41.in the whirl wind. What do I do? I need a poem. When sadness and
:20:42. > :20:48.celebrations can mingle, the body shudders, shakes and implodes. When
:20:49. > :20:53.it blows in memories, the land is dreamt off. You are lodged in our
:20:54. > :20:57.memories. You tower over the world like a Comet. Leaving streaks of
:20:58. > :21:21.light for us to follow. We salute you. Madiba.
:21:22. > :21:28.Who stole the fire from the Gods. The light to light our path to
:21:29. > :21:33.freedom. Who lit our stoves to cook a meal of
:21:34. > :21:40.peace and reconciliation. The giant tree has fallen, scattering one
:21:41. > :21:46.million bright leafs, each messages of peace of love and reconciliation.
:21:47. > :21:48.Shall we walk in his footstep footsteps? . Madiba, they say, you
:21:49. > :22:03.are a brilliant man. They say you are a wise man. You
:22:04. > :22:11.remind them of a wise man too. They say you have warmth and charm.
:22:12. > :22:19.Warm and charming too. They say you are resilient. You are a mirror that
:22:20. > :22:25.reflects the glory and splendour of heart. People reflect this dreams.
:22:26. > :22:31.You have taught us that. A group of trees break the angry wind. The tree
:22:32. > :22:37.that towers above the rest is broken by the wind. Proud of dreams of a
:22:38. > :22:44.future where black and white, rich and poor, men, women and children
:22:45. > :22:47.must live side by side. Dreaming the same dream. Realising that the time
:22:48. > :23:02.in our land, we salute you. They were very moving, weren't they,
:23:03. > :23:08.the grandchildren. That very last. PJ Powers, we saw you in there,
:23:09. > :23:14.singing the choir. What were you singing? We were sing singing Nelson
:23:15. > :23:16.Mandela. Let's see it. There you are, in the
:23:17. > :23:32.middle there. You wrote some songs for these
:23:33. > :23:36.events. Have you got some songs, your famous songs. You sang at the
:23:37. > :23:42.World Cup. Yes, I did. That is a song that has been sung at all the
:23:43. > :23:49.Rugby World Cups. It was a hymn. I did it at the 1995 World Cup. What
:23:50. > :23:56.did you think of today? What did you make of it? It with us a wonderful
:23:57. > :24:02.celebration. It was a send-off, as I said earlier, this man who brought
:24:03. > :24:09.everybody together. That is how it happened Oman Mandela is and will
:24:10. > :24:13.remain -- is how it happened. Nelson Mandela is and will remain the
:24:14. > :24:18.greatest thing this country will ever see. What did you make of
:24:19. > :24:21.today? I realised that Mandela is the unifier.
:24:22. > :24:24.The whole world was here in South Africa.
:24:25. > :24:31.You were touched by the number of people who came? The number of
:24:32. > :24:35.foreign dignitaries. Did you not expect that? I did expect South
:24:36. > :24:39.Africans would come in their numbers. I did not expect the heads
:24:40. > :24:44.of state and Government would come in the numbers they did. Countries
:24:45. > :24:47.that I wouldn't have thought that had a lot of dealings with South
:24:48. > :24:58.Africa. What do you think brought them here?
:24:59. > :25:02.Mandela. They had to be here to represent their countries. It looks
:25:03. > :25:07.like to me, everybody would like to be like Mandela. Anyone who is a
:25:08. > :25:11.leader of a community of people, a nation, and if they can't, at least
:25:12. > :25:16.they must be associated with Mandela. And he inspires them in
:25:17. > :25:21.various ways. Not all of them are able, or none of them are able to
:25:22. > :25:26.emulate him as much as they would like to, but he is an example that
:25:27. > :25:32.everybody would like to be associated with. Do you think a new
:25:33. > :25:40.generation will draw inspiration from Mandela's life. What would you
:25:41. > :25:45.want them to learn from it? Mandela touches that inside ourselves, that
:25:46. > :25:52.wants us to be bigger. And I have seen it with young
:25:53. > :25:57.people. Even young children, having just touched him, having just been
:25:58. > :26:02.touched by him. Already, so in terms of their
:26:03. > :26:10.possibilities. And that, I think, is what is amazing about his legacy.
:26:11. > :26:18.He's legacy calls us to greatness. At every point, because the way he
:26:19. > :26:24.related to people, he made himself present in the moment that he talks
:26:25. > :26:30.to you. However young, however old, however poor, however rich, he was
:26:31. > :26:37.present in the moment. And of course, his example of
:26:38. > :26:43.servant leadership, a man who gave of himself, in order to serve, not
:26:44. > :26:46.in a subservient way, but in a way that says, this is what leadership
:26:47. > :26:50.is about. This is what is possible if we work
:26:51. > :26:58.together. And so, I believe that today we were
:26:59. > :27:04.celebrate celebrating the greatness of, not just the man, but the
:27:05. > :27:10.greatness of what he has inspired in us. And in our country and in the
:27:11. > :27:15.world. The African National Congress
:27:16. > :27:23.organised today. You represent also traditional leaders and you are
:27:24. > :27:32.going to play a special part in the ceremony? As part of the collective
:27:33. > :27:37.of tragsal leadership in the area. -- traditional leadership in the
:27:38. > :27:42.area. Being the old original law-giving law-makers. The original
:27:43. > :27:47.rulers of South Africa. We have heard of things like speaking to the
:27:48. > :27:53.body and particularly - what actually happens? What will we see
:27:54. > :27:58.happen? Well, we believe that a person even as he is dead continues
:27:59. > :28:02.to live through his spirit. So, therefore that is why it is
:28:03. > :28:08.important that when he is to be moved from one place to the other
:28:09. > :28:12.that someone has to speak to him. To speak to his spirit, to tell him
:28:13. > :28:17.this is where we are moving from now, this is where we're going to.
:28:18. > :28:23.So his spirit does not wander about. It must be together with the body
:28:24. > :28:28.until the final resting place. So that it become becomes part of the
:28:29. > :28:33.family - the guardian of the home steed, where he lies to rest. What
:28:34. > :28:37.is the relationship between traditional leadership and the more
:28:38. > :28:45.political leadership of the ANC, in your view? I believe South Africa
:28:46. > :28:52.has strived to do and is still striving to do is to have a place in
:28:53. > :28:58.our constitutional democracy for traditional leadership. And this is
:28:59. > :29:03.important because there is a sense in which the evolution of
:29:04. > :29:10.traditional leadership in South Africa was interrupted by
:29:11. > :29:19.colonialism. So, the process of bring bringing into modernity those
:29:20. > :29:27.cultural customary practises has to be enacted in a way that is within
:29:28. > :29:33.the spirit of a human rights-based constitution. That is the genius of
:29:34. > :29:38.Madiba, in that he recognised the importance of traditional
:29:39. > :29:46.leadership. But also recognised the contradictions that are likely to
:29:47. > :29:51.arise. And, as a lawyer, and as a human rights principled man, he
:29:52. > :29:58.always made sure that when there is a contradiction, the constitution
:29:59. > :30:03.must rule. You as, not belonging to that side of South African culture,
:30:04. > :30:07.are you surprised by that? Do you find a conflict between the modern
:30:08. > :30:12.politician and the traditional, well you were there dancing and singing
:30:13. > :30:14.in the traditional style - is it surprising to you, is it natural to
:30:15. > :30:34.you? I believe the two can co-habit.
:30:35. > :30:38.There is a place. I cherish the modern side that plans the way
:30:39. > :30:42.forward. We will see a singer in a moment, I hope. Let's watch a bit
:30:43. > :30:47.more of what went on this morning. I suppose the highlight of the day for
:30:48. > :30:52.many was the speech by the American President, Barack Obama. But other
:30:53. > :30:57.speeches and music before that. Here, for instance, is the
:30:58. > :31:07.Secretary-General of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon. Nelson Mandela
:31:08. > :31:19.showed us the way with a heart larger than this stadium and an
:31:20. > :31:29.infectious smile that could light up the world. Nelson Mandela is at
:31:30. > :31:44.rest. His long walk complete. Let us now be inspired by the spirit he
:31:45. > :31:56.awoken in all of us. It is a duty of all of us who loved him to keep his
:31:57. > :32:00.memory alive, in our hearts and to embody his example in our lives. May
:32:01. > :32:42.he rest in peace and eternity. # Can reach down and bless our
:32:43. > :33:28.hearts # From his heaven above... #
:33:29. > :34:08.To the people of South Africa - people of every race and walk of
:34:09. > :34:16.life - the world thanks you for sharing Nelson Mandela with us. It
:34:17. > :34:20.is hard to eulogise any man - to capture in words not just the facts
:34:21. > :34:23.and the dates that make a life, but the essential truth of a person -
:34:24. > :34:34.their private joys and sorrows; the quiet moments and unique qualities
:34:35. > :34:38.that illuminate someone's soul. How much harder to do so for a giant of
:34:39. > :34:53.history, who moved a nation toward justice, and in the process moved
:34:54. > :35:01.billions around the world. We see a man who earned his place in history
:35:02. > :35:07.through struggle and shrewdness and persistence and faith. He tells us
:35:08. > :35:31.what is possible, not just in the pages of history books, but in our
:35:32. > :35:34.own lives as well. Moreover, he accepted the consequences of his
:35:35. > :35:37.actions, knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice
:35:38. > :35:40.carries a price. "I have fought against white domination and I have
:35:41. > :35:43.fought against black domination. I've cherished the ideal of a
:35:44. > :35:47.democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony
:35:48. > :35:52.and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for
:35:53. > :36:11.and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared
:36:12. > :36:18.to die." There is a word in South Africa - Ubuntu - a word that
:36:19. > :36:21.captures Mandela's greatest gift: his recognition that we are all
:36:22. > :36:24.bound together in ways that are invisible to the eye; that there is
:36:25. > :36:27.a oneness to humanity; that we achieve ourselves by sharing
:36:28. > :36:51.ourselves with others, and caring for those around us. We will never
:36:52. > :37:02.see the likes of Nelson Mandela again. May God bless the people of
:37:03. > :37:14.South Africa. Can I just remind the people sitting up there that we will
:37:15. > :37:29.wait until you have finished? Can we keep silent, please? Right up there.
:37:30. > :38:22.We do not call Madiba the father of our nation, merely for political
:38:23. > :38:25.correctness or relevance: We do so because he laid a firm foundation
:38:26. > :38:28.for the South Africa of our dreams - one that is united, non-racial,
:38:29. > :38:31.non-sexist, democratic and prosperous. We do so because Madiba
:38:32. > :38:34.was a courageous leader. Courageous leaders are able to abandon their
:38:35. > :38:37.narrow concerns for bigger and all-embracing dreams, even if those
:38:38. > :38:41.dreams come at a huge price. Madiba embodied this trait. He was a
:38:42. > :38:44.fearless freedom fighter who refused to allow the brutality of the
:38:45. > :38:51.apartheid state to stand in the way of the struggle for the liberation
:38:52. > :39:04.of his people. Our Father, Madiba, has run a good race. He declared in
:39:05. > :39:12.his own words, in 1994, he said, "Death is something inevitable. When
:39:13. > :39:21.a man has done what he considers to be his duty to his people and his
:39:22. > :39:31.country, he can rest in peace. I believe I've made that effort and
:39:32. > :39:39.that is, therefore, why I will sleep for eternity." Rest in peace, Our
:39:40. > :39:53.Father, and our hero. Thank you very much.
:39:54. > :40:10.We promise God, you must say "yes". We promise God that we are going to
:40:11. > :40:41.follow the example of Nelson Mandela. Yes!
:40:42. > :41:09.STUDIO: A robust blessing given by Desmond Tutu. He said he wouldn't
:41:10. > :41:13.give the blessing unless there was silence, so he could hear a pin
:41:14. > :41:17.drop. Then the dignitaries and the crowd left. Winnie Mandela in the
:41:18. > :41:21.middle. There were four British Prime Ministers here today for this
:41:22. > :41:25.memorial. Sir John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David
:41:26. > :41:29.Cameron, who I spoke to here about his reaction to the events he had
:41:30. > :41:33.witnessed. You have come from the stadium. What
:41:34. > :41:38.was it like in there? It was more like a celebration than a
:41:39. > :41:41.commemoration, a music, dance, people swaying - it was
:41:42. > :41:46.extraordinary. I thought the highlight was the Obama speech,
:41:47. > :41:51.where it was very, very powerful and really roused the crowd. It made
:41:52. > :41:55.everyone look inwards and think, "What more can I do to honour the
:41:56. > :42:01.memory of this great man?" You didn't get to speak at all? I wasn't
:42:02. > :42:04.coming to speak, I was coming to pay my respects. That was a wonderful
:42:05. > :42:09.thing to be able to do. You felt very proud to be there. Also, an
:42:10. > :42:15.extraordinary opportunity to meet quite so many other heads of state
:42:16. > :42:19.and government, the sort of diplomatic argy-bargy was
:42:20. > :42:24.interesting in itself. Tell us about that. It is quite odd to find four
:42:25. > :42:27.American presidents all in one place. In fact, Carter, Clinton,
:42:28. > :42:33.Bush, Obama. That is an interesting start. Then a lot of African
:42:34. > :42:37.leaders, who I have met before, I was able to talk to. I could
:42:38. > :42:42.commiserate with Francois Hollande about his losses in the Central
:42:43. > :42:52.African Republic. Then a wide range of people from the President of
:42:53. > :42:57.Mexico to the Prime Minister of India. Raul Castro, did you shake
:42:58. > :43:02.his hand? I didn't. I didn't meet him, actually. I managed to not meet
:43:03. > :43:06.Robert Mugabe. Other than that, I did meet a lot of people. How did
:43:07. > :43:15.you manage not to meet Robert Mugabe? I can't think. Deft hands!
:43:16. > :43:23.There are some African leaders I admire. The President of Botswana is
:43:24. > :43:28.doing a fantastic job. Yes. There are people who are doing great
:43:29. > :43:34.things for their countries. Do you really have a chance to say anything
:43:35. > :43:39.meaningful? You are there for quite a long time. Yes, you do. There are
:43:40. > :43:43.always - our Foreign Office is very good at making the most of all your
:43:44. > :43:48.contacts. There's this wonderful thing on some of their notes that
:43:49. > :43:52.says, "Perhaps best not to talk to you, but if you do, this is the
:43:53. > :43:57.point you ought to make." You do have a chance. You have cue cards
:43:58. > :44:02.like Ronald Reagan used to have? Britain is - we are competing in a
:44:03. > :44:06.global race. We want to have relationships, engagements across
:44:07. > :44:11.the world. In Africa, you have some of the fastest-growing economies
:44:12. > :44:16.right now. Getting Britain more involved in South Africa, Nigeria,
:44:17. > :44:21.Botswana, Mozambique, this is a very important part of our country. It is
:44:22. > :44:24.not appropriate to do too much of that during a massive commemoration
:44:25. > :44:28.like today. These relationships matter. I spend a lot of time on
:44:29. > :44:33.them. You have been critical of the Conservative Party's attitude
:44:34. > :44:38.towards apartheid. Do you think Mrs Thatcher and that period allowed
:44:39. > :44:42.apartheid to go on longer than it otherwise would have done? Mrs
:44:43. > :44:47.Thatcher was an opponent of apartheid. She wanted Nelson Mandela
:44:48. > :44:51.freed and letters have been released to prove that. There was the
:44:52. > :44:54.question of the attitude towards sanctions, which I have spoken about
:44:55. > :44:58.in the past. I think we should be clear that all political parties in
:44:59. > :45:02.Britain were opposed to apartheid. I remember seeing for myself what an
:45:03. > :45:12.appalling system it was. What were the mistakes that the Conservative
:45:13. > :45:20.Party made? I wrote about this in 2006. There was an argument there.
:45:21. > :45:24.There is always an argument with sanctions. Does it hit the
:45:25. > :45:30.government? Or does it hit the people? On all sides of politics,
:45:31. > :45:34.everyone wanted to see change in South Africa. I don't think anyone
:45:35. > :45:38.believed in their heart of hearts that it really would happen as
:45:39. > :45:44.peacefully as it did. That was the most wonderful thing about it.
:45:45. > :45:48.Mandela leaving prison and then this immense political change also made
:45:49. > :45:53.possible - we should remember this - and he was there today in the seats
:45:54. > :45:58.with all the world leaders - FW de Klerk who himself was awarded the
:45:59. > :46:11.Nobel Peace Prize and who helped make this extraordinary change
:46:12. > :46:17.possible. Just on a political point what, do you think for a politician
:46:18. > :46:22.is the lesson that Mandela taught? I think the biggest lesson is this
:46:23. > :46:28.immense generosity and this boldness - this sense that you should do the
:46:29. > :46:31.right thing. When you think of how bitter Mandela could have been, when
:46:32. > :46:36.you think of the leadership he could have given in a more sectional
:46:37. > :46:43.direction. The fact he choose openness, he choose to forgive his
:46:44. > :46:47.former captors andor mentors and wanted to create an open and
:46:48. > :46:52.generous South Africa, I think that is an immense political lesson. That
:46:53. > :46:57.was the best part, for me of the whole day was Obama saying, there
:46:58. > :47:04.are those who hold up Madiba as an icon, but don't always follow his
:47:05. > :47:06.lessons about tolerance, not imprisoning your political
:47:07. > :47:10.opponents. I thought that was a great moment. I thought a very
:47:11. > :47:14.powerful point that perhaps only Obama could have made in that way,
:47:15. > :47:17.at that time, in front of all those people. Prime Minister, thank you
:47:18. > :47:25.very much. Thank you for joining us. David Cameron, who was here earlier.
:47:26. > :47:31.Now the mourning lasts several days. Tomorrow, something quite different.
:47:32. > :47:36.Tomorrow, the commemoration moves from the football stadium in Soweto,
:47:37. > :47:40.here to Pretoria, the capital of South Africa.
:47:41. > :47:44.For three days Nelson Mandela's body will lie here in state for the
:47:45. > :47:49.ordinary people of South Africa to file past. These are the Union
:47:50. > :47:53.Buildings - the headquarters of the presidency and the Government. It
:47:54. > :47:58.was here that just under 20 years ago we watched Nelson Mandela, up
:47:59. > :48:02.there on the platform, taking the oath as President, surrounded by all
:48:03. > :48:07.of the people who opposed him - the General, the chiefs of police, the
:48:08. > :48:12.nationalist politician, as he became President of South Africa. There was
:48:13. > :48:16.that great moment when the jets from the South African Air Force streamed
:48:17. > :48:20.past, flying coloured smoke in the colours of the South African flag.
:48:21. > :48:23.Tomorrow will be a much more sombre affair, of course. The coffin will
:48:24. > :48:29.be brought from the military hospital, down there in Pretoria,
:48:30. > :48:33.will wind up through these gardens to this central platform here. It is
:48:34. > :48:37.here that people will file past. And each day, for three days, that
:48:38. > :48:42.coffin is going to be brought from the hospital, to be taken back at
:48:43. > :48:46.night and then once again to go through the streets. No doubt the
:48:47. > :48:49.scenes will be very moving. There's another building that is
:48:50. > :48:54.just as important to the Mandela story here in downtown Pretoria -
:48:55. > :49:00.the Palace of Justice, on Church Square. It is here where Mandela was
:49:01. > :49:06.put on trial for plotting violent revolution on 9th October, 1963.
:49:07. > :49:11.He expected the death penalty, but received a life sentence, to a
:49:12. > :49:16.hugely relieved public gallery. The 27 years he spent in jail changed
:49:17. > :49:20.him, as he explained to me when I met him.
:49:21. > :49:24.Before I went to jail I was very arrogant. And there is evidence of
:49:25. > :49:32.that. But you know, when I was in jail, I
:49:33. > :49:40.had something I did not have outside - the ability to sit down and just
:49:41. > :49:48.think. To review your past life and the future role you have to play. I
:49:49. > :49:55.became ashamed, because I'd behaved like an animal, to people who were
:49:56. > :50:02.very kind to me. And I decided that if ever I got a chance, I will make
:50:03. > :50:09.them appreciate what they did to me. They would know that I appreciated.
:50:10. > :50:13.In just a few hours, these streets will be blocked off and the solemn
:50:14. > :50:18.funeral procession will make its way. Another step on South Africa's
:50:19. > :50:26.long goodbye to Nelson Mandela. The man they call Madiba.
:50:27. > :50:31.And here we are with the Union Buildings behind us. We will be
:50:32. > :50:35.there early tomorrow for the funeral procession. Let's use these last
:50:36. > :50:41.moments to talk about what happens next. Everybody has expressed their
:50:42. > :50:45.view about what Mandela gave South Africa. The question now is, South
:50:46. > :50:50.Africa clearly has problems - how is that legacy going to be turned, do
:50:51. > :50:53.you think, into policies that keep the country united? You have started
:50:54. > :51:01.a new political party because you don't like what the ANC are doing.
:51:02. > :51:08.I believe that Mandela's passing gives us another opportunity. A
:51:09. > :51:15.second chance to re-commit to the values that he lived and worked so
:51:16. > :51:22.hard for. Which the African National Congress have moved away from that?
:51:23. > :51:27.I believe that there is a big gap between what leaders in the African
:51:28. > :51:38.National Congress say and what they do. The issue of human dignity
:51:39. > :51:43.cannot be set to be met with the kind of conditions under which the
:51:44. > :51:54.majority of South Africans still live. You speak of poverty and no
:51:55. > :52:02.electricity and no education and no jobs, indeed. The most important gap
:52:03. > :52:07.is education, which Mandela himself said, education is the key to the
:52:08. > :52:13.future. What the ANC has failed to do over the last 20 years is to
:52:14. > :52:21.provide every child with an education that will awaken the
:52:22. > :52:28.genius. Instead, we have young people graduating from high school
:52:29. > :52:34.who can't read, can't write and end up in our streets. Four million of
:52:35. > :52:41.them are out there. What is to be down? Your party? Let's build a
:52:42. > :52:48.South Africa of our dreams. A South Africa which will encapsulate this
:52:49. > :52:54.dream and the focus has to be on quality education that brings out
:52:55. > :52:57.the best in every child and live livelihoods.
:52:58. > :53:03.What do you think of this - this criticism of the ANC they are not
:53:04. > :53:07.delivering what Nelson Mandela intended should be delivered? First
:53:08. > :53:14.of all, Nelson Mandela himself was an advocate of the community or a
:53:15. > :53:19.nation that calls on the Government to account. And the good thing about
:53:20. > :53:24.the ANC is that it lives with the people. Even if the leadership might
:53:25. > :53:28.seem to be distant from the people at times, but they understand what
:53:29. > :53:34.the needs of the people are. They always come up with a strategy. It
:53:35. > :53:39.is different from serving the needs of the people - providing education,
:53:40. > :53:43.finding a way of providing jobs. Not allowing people, the poor to get
:53:44. > :53:48.poorer and the rich, richer, isn't it? That is why again on a regular
:53:49. > :53:53.basis it is policies that address the conditions that obtain - it is
:53:54. > :53:58.in a position at all times to come up with these strategies that are
:53:59. > :54:02.going to address... . And you are content with the way things are
:54:03. > :54:06.going in this country? We could do better, could do more. And the good
:54:07. > :54:13.thing again is we have this constitution, which guarantees
:54:14. > :54:18.freedom of expression. Everybody, therefore, is in a position...
:54:19. > :54:25.People can say what they like, but PJ Powers, you see it as it has
:54:26. > :54:30.developed since the first universal elections. What do you make of it?
:54:31. > :54:35.The footage you have shown is the fun mental difference between Nelson
:54:36. > :54:39.Mandela and the politicians that are -- the funt mental differences
:54:40. > :54:43.between Nelson Mandela and the politicians.
:54:44. > :54:48.I think also what is so incredibly amazing about Nelson Mandela is he
:54:49. > :54:53.always did the unexpected. You know, in 1995, with the World Cup rugby,
:54:54. > :54:59.he walked into enemy territory, basically. He was surrounded with
:55:00. > :55:08.people saying, "Nelson. Nelson." He came out of prison and had tea. He
:55:09. > :55:12.went into areas where he crossed barriers. That is the pam
:55:13. > :55:16.approximate he has set us -- that is the example he has set us. If we
:55:17. > :55:26.deliver on those examples, where we are accountable for the actions and
:55:27. > :55:33.we say, yes, we did wrong, that is the fundamental difference. Has he
:55:34. > :55:49.reconciled Afrikaans English? You say, no.
:55:50. > :55:58.Part of the architect's team says to ordinary people, that if you do not
:55:59. > :56:04.vote for the ANC they will come back and dominate us. That is a said
:56:05. > :56:11.statement from someone who ought to know better. To for me, the Long
:56:12. > :56:17.Walk To Freedom is not yet over. The responsibility we have today and the
:56:18. > :56:23.commitment we ought to make, as we lay this great son of Africa to
:56:24. > :56:31.rest, is to commit to living the dream he worked so hard for. And
:56:32. > :56:38.that starts with a Government that, not only does policies, but that is
:56:39. > :56:46.clean, because corruption is what has stolen the future of many South
:56:47. > :56:51.Africans. And a Government that is competent and accountable, as PJ
:56:52. > :56:56.said. Let's just for a moment look ahead to the next days of mourning.
:56:57. > :57:01.What will happen tomorrow, do you think? You are going to be at the
:57:02. > :57:06.funeral. You are singing? I am singing in Qunu. And there'll be
:57:07. > :57:11.choirs... Yes. What do you think the mood will be? The mood here at the
:57:12. > :57:16.Union Buildings will be a lot more sombre than today. What do you think
:57:17. > :57:20.it will be like? It should be sombre, mostly because the people
:57:21. > :57:25.will be viewing the body of Madiba, lying, not speaking, not to speak
:57:26. > :57:30.any more. And that, meaning therefore, that is the end of Madiba
:57:31. > :57:35.and we are only left with the legacy that he left us. His family will be
:57:36. > :57:41.there, won't they, to receive the body - is that right? Here, lying in
:57:42. > :57:45.state? I am not sure. I imagine there'll always be family members
:57:46. > :57:50.who are there, even if he will be in the care of the military. What do
:57:51. > :57:55.you expect to see? You'll be with us, I hope, tomorrow? It will be a
:57:56. > :58:02.sombre day and viewing the body of a loved one is the hardest thing.
:58:03. > :58:11.And for those of us who are close to him in more personal ways, it is
:58:12. > :58:14.something that always touches you in a very fundamental way. Thank you
:58:15. > :58:18.very much. I thank all three of you very much. That ends this look at
:58:19. > :58:26.today's events here in South Africa. We will be back at 5 5am tomorrow,
:58:27. > :58:33.did I say that really, on BBC Two, to watch the procession to the Union
:58:34. > :58:39.Buildings, high up on the hill behind us. I hope you will join us.
:58:40. > :58:43.Until then, good evening.