:00:44. > :00:48.Hello and welcome to politics Europe. The French President
:00:49. > :00:52.Emmanuel Macron says Europe has lost its way and promises to hold
:00:53. > :00:58.democratic conventions across the EU to discuss reform. The EU strikes at
:00:59. > :01:03.outlying free-trade deal with Japan but with much of the details still
:01:04. > :01:09.to be hammered out. MEPs discuss how to plug the EU funding gap after
:01:10. > :01:13.Brexit. We report from Strasbourg. And just what was getting the
:01:14. > :01:18.commission president John Hood yorker so hot under the collar? I
:01:19. > :01:29.will never, I will never again attempt a meeting of this kind. Some
:01:30. > :01:33.may wonder if that is a promise or a threat and it is all become in the
:01:34. > :01:38.next 30 minutes and with me, joined by two MEPs, the Conservative Sajjad
:01:39. > :01:41.Karim and for Labour. Welcome. First of all, this is the round-up of the
:01:42. > :01:52.latest EU news in just 60 seconds. I'm under the new French President
:01:53. > :01:56.gave a speech saying the European Union had lost its way in the past
:01:57. > :02:01.ten years. The solution is a new generation of leaders like him,
:02:02. > :02:04.presumably. EU and Japan reached every work agreement on a free-trade
:02:05. > :02:09.agreement, paving the way for motor race on goods by Japanese car than
:02:10. > :02:13.farming product. It's the last leg for the European Parliament is all a
:02:14. > :02:17.sports day and lessons outside, MEPs voted to approve a 1 million euros
:02:18. > :02:20.aid package for Moldova, defeated a bid to give Northern Ireland special
:02:21. > :02:24.status within the EU following Brexit, and just ask whether they
:02:25. > :02:30.should be based in a single city and stopped their monthly shuttle from
:02:31. > :02:35.Strasbourg and back. It also got a ticking off from the President
:02:36. > :02:40.Juncker after a few dozen MEPs turned up to hear him speak. You are
:02:41. > :02:45.ridiculous. He also said he'd never again attend a meeting of the kind.
:02:46. > :02:55.MEPs were unsure if it was a threat or a promise. How significant is the
:02:56. > :02:59.trade agreement with Japan question mark isn't it just symbolic? Not at
:03:00. > :03:03.all, there are several factors around the trade deal and one is how
:03:04. > :03:08.long it's taken, which is a lesson to all of us, and every still more
:03:09. > :03:11.to do. How long have taken? Four years to get this far and there are
:03:12. > :03:17.still further processes to go through, the it's something we need
:03:18. > :03:22.to keep a steady eye on. It also, it is between these two enormous kind
:03:23. > :03:26.of economic bases and you know, where you have Japanese
:03:27. > :03:30.manufacturers or other companies, you know, need to keep an eye on
:03:31. > :03:34.this because what will happen to our trade with Japan? We will come to it
:03:35. > :03:39.in a moment but I mean is a symbolic in terms of PR and head of the G20
:03:40. > :03:42.because there's still so much to negotiate. I mean they haven't
:03:43. > :03:46.actually tied the deal have they? And this was arrived at the moment
:03:47. > :03:50.from where it would seem that there is no pulling back now. Right. Is
:03:51. > :03:55.another of tidying up exercise is still to do. What I found
:03:56. > :03:58.interesting about this was that the Japanese stated that this was a deal
:03:59. > :04:05.done between them and the 28 members of the European Union. So
:04:06. > :04:08.including... Including the United Kingdom which I believe sends a
:04:09. > :04:11.strong signal that the United Kingdom remains open for business
:04:12. > :04:15.and that we welcome this deal and we are in a position to do similar
:04:16. > :04:20.deals ourselves, post- Brexit. And do you agree with that? Isn't this
:04:21. > :04:24.than an example of what could be achieved, albeit in a shorter space
:04:25. > :04:30.of time if the government gets its way, a free-trade deal between the
:04:31. > :04:36.UK and the EU? Well, we absolutely have to land deal between us and the
:04:37. > :04:40.EU. They have managed to with Japan. Over four years. We have less than
:04:41. > :04:43.two years left in terms of the -- sorting out our exit which become
:04:44. > :04:49.significant in terms of thought we'd do in transition. But also to have
:04:50. > :04:53.an equality of the scale of the economy is when you are looking at
:04:54. > :04:57.the EU and Japan. We are in a different position thought of in the
:04:58. > :05:01.future if we are looking at just the UK to bring trade. Isn't that the
:05:02. > :05:05.problem? Twice as long as the amount of time that Theresa May and Davis
:05:06. > :05:10.Davis have at their disposal to secure trade deal between the EU? I
:05:11. > :05:15.think the challenges are huge and you shouldn't underestimate it. If
:05:16. > :05:19.it impossible to achieve? The other thing to bear in mind is it doesn't
:05:20. > :05:23.cover services. Any have not cover services as well. The challenge is a
:05:24. > :05:27.far greater than the Japanese challenge and therefore we really
:05:28. > :05:31.are going to have to concentrate our minds in a very short space of time
:05:32. > :05:35.to deliver this. Is it realistic? And if the actually concentrate our
:05:36. > :05:40.minds to the real issues, we are not going to get this timeline. And the
:05:41. > :05:44.real issues that aggression before trade and the economy or the other
:05:45. > :05:47.way around? The economy must come first. Immigration must be a
:05:48. > :05:51.secondary issue. If we do with the other way around I'm afraid our
:05:52. > :05:56.economy and this whole issue of meeting the deadlines is going to
:05:57. > :06:00.unravel very quickly indeed. But talk about Juncker, it was quite an
:06:01. > :06:04.outpost, he was cross, not many MEPs turned up to hear him address the
:06:05. > :06:11.parliament. Was it right to criticise you guys? No, I don't. He
:06:12. > :06:15.had a moment, that happens, we all have our moments every now and then.
:06:16. > :06:18.Reality is like Westminster, if people aren't in the chamber, that's
:06:19. > :06:22.because they are working elsewhere in the building. I was in working
:06:23. > :06:26.groups that morning, I have three back-to-back working groups on the
:06:27. > :06:32.different pieces of legislation we are working on. So the reality is
:06:33. > :06:37.very different from the one he was talking about here. We have Monday -
:06:38. > :06:40.Thursday as with Westminster to get a lot of work done and you
:06:41. > :06:45.concentrate on effective work rather than sitting in chambers. Do you
:06:46. > :06:49.agree he overstepped the mark would do you feel as president of the
:06:50. > :06:51.commission he was due a bit of respect from elected representatives
:06:52. > :06:55.like yourself to at least come and hear him speak? I think this works
:06:56. > :06:59.both ways. There has been a number of occasions where he should have
:07:00. > :07:06.actually been present in the chamber himself and he wasn't. Right. So it
:07:07. > :07:09.works both ways and if we are willing to accept he cannot always
:07:10. > :07:13.be there, he needs to be the same for us. He got a real telling off
:07:14. > :07:16.though from the head of the parliament. I would expect nothing
:07:17. > :07:24.less! Right. We will end up there. And he has apologised since. True,
:07:25. > :07:28.Mr Juncker? Yes. Now what will the EU look like after Brexit? It has
:07:29. > :07:34.been the topic of discussion amongst leaders and this week President
:07:35. > :07:37.Macron waded into the debate. On Monday he said that the European
:07:38. > :07:42.Union had to be revived by a new generation of leaders. And he
:07:43. > :07:47.announced that France and Germany would launch a graphic conventions
:07:48. > :07:52.by the end of 2017, with the aim of re- founding Europe. He insisted
:07:53. > :07:57.each member state would be free to sign-on or not. But there is no
:07:58. > :08:02.longer time for quick fixes. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has
:08:03. > :08:06.signalled her support for a change in Europe, one day after the Briton
:08:07. > :08:10.negotiations began, she told the Federation of German industry she
:08:11. > :08:14.was open to a joint EU finance minister. It only if the framework
:08:15. > :08:18.conditions are right. And she said she would discuss the eurozone by
:08:19. > :08:22.the budget, as long as it is clear that this will truly strengthen
:08:23. > :08:28.structures and do meaningful things. The debate follows on from Mr
:08:29. > :08:32.Juncker 's white paper outlining five scenarios the future of the EU,
:08:33. > :08:38.it was discussed at the Rome summit in March. That ranged from the EU
:08:39. > :08:43.re- focusing solely on the Common Market to foster integration between
:08:44. > :08:46.nations and admit all that and the Brexit negotiations, the UK will
:08:47. > :08:50.have to decide if it is still to join an EU wide battle group which
:08:51. > :08:57.Britain has committed forces to join from 2019. After the UK is due to
:08:58. > :09:02.leave the EU. Well, we've been joined by party. What is Macron's
:09:03. > :09:09.grand plan big Europe? What are these democratic conventions look
:09:10. > :09:12.like? Of course there are a lot of expectations on his shoulders right
:09:13. > :09:15.now, this was a manifesto promise appears to hold democratic
:09:16. > :09:19.conventions of property have still extended across the EU and I think
:09:20. > :09:22.this is the basis on which he constructed his own campaign when he
:09:23. > :09:25.was running for president here and the expectation is you can build a
:09:26. > :09:28.bottom-up sort of democracy and the people themselves can shape the
:09:29. > :09:33.priorities of the French presidency or the European Union going forward.
:09:34. > :09:37.If a talking shop? Is it a way of being seen to be doing something
:09:38. > :09:41.without any real substance? I think it is one criticism of it but what
:09:42. > :09:46.he hopes to achieve with these democratic conventions is to focus
:09:47. > :09:50.minds in Europe but more soundly and given Mr Juncker's white paper
:09:51. > :09:53.earlier this year when he suggested there were different methods the EU
:09:54. > :09:59.can pursue coming forward for reform, one of which was do less but
:10:00. > :10:02.more effectively, I think Macron's convention tends to stick to that,
:10:03. > :10:07.to ask the people what they want them to focus on. What about the new
:10:08. > :10:12.generation of leaders. He's new, but who else? Have the Irish president
:10:13. > :10:17.who is now the youngest in the EU, and I think we have, what he is
:10:18. > :10:22.speaking about more generally rather than just humouring his neighbours
:10:23. > :10:25.is the idea of rejuvenating the EU project which has the mandate he
:10:26. > :10:29.thinks he has. Do you think Macron will be successful in trying to
:10:30. > :10:36.reshape Europe, liberating the member states once the UK leaves?
:10:37. > :10:41.I'm not quite sure what liberating the member states looks like but in
:10:42. > :10:44.terms of his attitude, it was interesting watching the French
:10:45. > :10:50.campaign because he ran an unashamedly pro- European campaign.
:10:51. > :10:54.Westminster is not perfect, but a Westminster is not perfect, but a
:10:55. > :10:58.whole lot of institutions that are not perfect, but he ran up against a
:10:59. > :11:02.sort of anti- European campaign from Marine Le Pen 8181 much better than
:11:03. > :11:09.people thought he might do. So from that basis of looking than how he
:11:10. > :11:14.can re-establish a kind of enthusiasm from Europe, I think is
:11:15. > :11:19.his starting point and I think it is probably a good idea. How does he do
:11:20. > :11:23.that though? Because as Clare was saying there was anti- European
:11:24. > :11:26.sentiment within front as well, yes Emmanuel Macron did win
:11:27. > :11:31.overwhelmingly, but if you look at what it can actually do, is he going
:11:32. > :11:35.to bring and should he bring all the eurozone states even closer
:11:36. > :11:40.together? Isn't that what he is planning, more integration? And will
:11:41. > :11:44.it work? I admire his ambitions to what he is doing is going from a
:11:45. > :11:48.platform of having fought the French elections were the galvanising force
:11:49. > :11:52.was the fact that he had a far right extremist as a candidate against
:11:53. > :11:58.him, and even then the turnout was not infused enough to be able to say
:11:59. > :12:02.the French people felt enthused to come and back Macron on this. For
:12:03. > :12:07.him than the say that he can take this on across Europe wide scale, I
:12:08. > :12:14.believe it is really ambitious on his part. It doesn't sound like
:12:15. > :12:18.Sajjad thinks it could work. Is further integration for European
:12:19. > :12:21.countries within the EU the answer? If you take on board some of the
:12:22. > :12:25.euroscepticism that does exist in France, it is still divided like
:12:26. > :12:30.many other countries, but will it work? A lot of what is being talked
:12:31. > :12:34.about will take a long time to deliver, quite possibly, after we
:12:35. > :12:40.have left the European Union. So the big certain extent it is up to them.
:12:41. > :12:46.Make the choice for EU 27, they will decide how the EU 27 work best
:12:47. > :12:51.together. We are going to do watching from the outside. Right.
:12:52. > :12:55.And looking at what Macron is trying to do, if we take the idea he is
:12:56. > :12:58.trying to bring the eurozone countries together as they are
:12:59. > :13:02.looking at ideas that will actually promote bad, is going to be harder
:13:03. > :13:05.for the UK to negotiate its deal? I think first of all we have to
:13:06. > :13:09.discuss the feasibility of the project and he accepts that this is
:13:10. > :13:13.not something that will happen in the short or the near term. What is
:13:14. > :13:18.the sort of timing he's pushing on? He suggests he understands the idea
:13:19. > :13:21.of the eurozone budget, eurozone minister, duress and parliament will
:13:22. > :13:24.require a lot of backing from Germany and obviously the smaller
:13:25. > :13:28.states as well. Reticence on the German side is the idea that France
:13:29. > :13:32.needs to get its own economy in shape before Germany is willing to
:13:33. > :13:35.back it. The Macron has said he will take a Labour market reform or other
:13:36. > :13:38.economic reforms domestically first and foremost before you went to
:13:39. > :13:43.Germany with these ideas, and put them in force. So whether or not
:13:44. > :13:47.this will form part of the negotiations I in the first thing to
:13:48. > :13:52.consider is what Timeline is Macron and the eurozone imagine for these
:13:53. > :13:56.reforms? And the direction of travel if it goes down that route and I
:13:57. > :14:00.take your point he has a big enough job trying to reform France in terms
:14:01. > :14:04.of Labour reforms, it will that be a good thing or a bad thing to you
:14:05. > :14:08.think for the UK as its negotiating its exit? It's difficult to know
:14:09. > :14:13.because of course this is not just a concern for the UK, it is a concern
:14:14. > :14:16.for all of it has been present for many of the smaller member states in
:14:17. > :14:20.the EU as well, the idea that the EU's final destination will be the
:14:21. > :14:24.eurozone. And what matters then is if you're a small estate on the edge
:14:25. > :14:28.without membership of the euro, do you still form part of the EU? Does
:14:29. > :14:32.this is the direction that the EU looks like he is going to go down,
:14:33. > :14:36.the UK will not be alone in watching from the outside, thinks all member
:14:37. > :14:39.states will also be look and asking what will EU membership men in the
:14:40. > :14:43.future, will have to join the euro? It's only a surprise the close
:14:44. > :14:45.integration is in some ways what Macron wants, as you say,
:14:46. > :14:47.unashamedly pro-EU, pro- European, do you think will make it difficult
:14:48. > :15:00.for the UK, these negotiations? While Europe is trying to figure out
:15:01. > :15:04.where it is going itself, that will affect the negotiations with us. One
:15:05. > :15:08.of the criticisms we are currently getting is we don't know whether we
:15:09. > :15:13.can negotiate, how stable is the British government? It applies the
:15:14. > :15:18.other way as well with the vision for Europe. They don't know where
:15:19. > :15:24.they are going. And with Emmanuel Macron, he is a man who has fought
:15:25. > :15:29.one election in his lifetime, and that is to be president of France.
:15:30. > :15:34.He is yet to face the hard realities of medical dynamics in France, let
:15:35. > :15:41.alone European ones. What about the smaller members of the EU? Will
:15:42. > :15:50.there be a complete two-tier Eurozone emerging? There is
:15:51. > :15:56.resistance against that, as is noted in the five-point plan. I know that
:15:57. > :16:05.isn't a direction a number of EU states want to take. The EU is a bit
:16:06. > :16:11.like a tanker as we know. It does not turn around quickly. We are
:16:12. > :16:18.having a quick and negotiation in terms of the exit. I hope the exit
:16:19. > :16:22.takes longer if we are going to do it well. They are separate
:16:23. > :16:26.conversations. I don't think they will have a significant impact. You
:16:27. > :16:32.are talking about conventions over a couple of years or whatever, that
:16:33. > :16:36.will not feed into a political process impacting on the
:16:37. > :16:41.negotiations. The commitment to the EU battle group, how do you feel
:16:42. > :16:46.about that? We are waiting for announcement from the UK on that. We
:16:47. > :16:51.said we would provide the headquarters for that in the
:16:52. > :16:55.immediate future. But what is important is certainly from a
:16:56. > :17:00.bilateral defence point of view, we have commitments, including from
:17:01. > :17:04.Emmanuel Macron in France that that should deepen. Whether we progress
:17:05. > :17:10.with that to a European level remains to be seen. What do you
:17:11. > :17:14.think? The butter groups have been in existence for ten years but have
:17:15. > :17:25.never been used once. -- battle. Everything has had to have been done
:17:26. > :17:29.on a natural level. Will it last in terms of our commitment to it?
:17:30. > :17:34.Security and defence is one of those areas where there is a strong
:17:35. > :17:40.interest in every regard that we work together. Nato and the EU are
:17:41. > :17:45.working together more closely than they ever have done, in fact, and we
:17:46. > :17:51.need to be part of that. My concern is we are taking ourselves out of
:17:52. > :17:54.the leading role in it, we will be participants if we manage to get a
:17:55. > :18:01.deal that includes security and defence at all, and the disadvantage
:18:02. > :18:07.is we will become very much a second-class participant. Very
:18:08. > :18:11.briefly, are you being embraced by your colleagues in the Parliament or
:18:12. > :18:21.marginalised these days? Personally, everyone gets on steel. They have
:18:22. > :18:25.played a productive path. -- still. And people don't just say yes when
:18:26. > :18:30.you speak to them... You are implying they said yes immediately?
:18:31. > :18:35.We had a huge role that we played in the Parliament. Thank you. We have
:18:36. > :18:39.heard a lot about the financial obligations the UK may have when it
:18:40. > :18:46.leaves the EU, but once they lose one of the biggest net contributors,
:18:47. > :18:59.how may be remaining 27 countries balance the books? Big news, the
:19:00. > :19:05.opening of a 360 degrees recreation of the hammer cycle. They were
:19:06. > :19:10.receiving a briefing on the future size and shape of the EU's finances
:19:11. > :19:15.for a seven year period from 2020, finances that will have a Brexit
:19:16. > :19:21.shaped hole in them between ten and 12 billion euros every year. The
:19:22. > :19:25.budget commissioner explains the EU is also taking on new tasks like
:19:26. > :19:33.fighting terrorism almost so it needed more cash, what is called a
:19:34. > :19:39.multi annual financial framework, the MAFF. It could mean changes to
:19:40. > :19:45.how the budget operates. For example, could reach companies like
:19:46. > :19:53.Germany be asked to pay more? -- richer. Could countries like
:19:54. > :19:58.Bulgaria have to take out less? We need more from this country and
:19:59. > :20:04.different countries and we have to stop with all of the special
:20:05. > :20:10.conditions. Not only Britain, it was also Germany and also I think the
:20:11. > :20:20.Netherlands. There is no reason to get special treatment. The
:20:21. > :20:24.commission has mooted a European pollution tax on cars to raise money
:20:25. > :20:29.as well as visitors coming to the EU. It has been seen as a power grab
:20:30. > :20:36.by some. I think the budget should remain strongly linked with
:20:37. > :20:42.nationstates and member states as cornerstones of the EU. I am not in
:20:43. > :20:50.favour of any new revenues, any European taxes on any sources for
:20:51. > :20:57.the budget. But when the all of us have to be decided, and what role
:20:58. > :21:02.for the 751 MEPs? The 600 that will be left after the Brits are gone.
:21:03. > :21:09.Parliament has a say. Of course, we don't decide how things will be, the
:21:10. > :21:16.member states decide it. But if we don't like it, on the other hand...
:21:17. > :21:20.They have to listen to us in a certain degree. A narrow window,
:21:21. > :21:26.September, 2018, before the election, 2019, we have to have a
:21:27. > :21:30.ready package by that time to be able to tell the European citizens
:21:31. > :21:35.what we are going to do with the budget. Finally, a quick trip to the
:21:36. > :21:39.new photo booth. One thing will disappear from the financial picture
:21:40. > :21:44.altogether, thanks to Brexit, there will be no more UK rebate, so the
:21:45. > :21:51.budget will look much simpler, and that gets the thumbs up around here.
:21:52. > :21:58.A nice and cheesy smile. Allan Fleming. Any ideas how the EU should
:21:59. > :22:06.plug the gap of some 10 billion euros a year? The negotiations go
:22:07. > :22:11.on, the MFF, that is being talked about, a catchy title, it goes on
:22:12. > :22:14.for seven years. We are in the middle of a current seven-year
:22:15. > :22:22.process. Negotiations are beginning now, part of the talk recently. They
:22:23. > :22:27.have a headache and that could be to the advantage of the UK, as they
:22:28. > :22:31.will lose our money. That is where the divorce bill comes in. It is
:22:32. > :22:39.also about what comes after Brexit and what we choose, how we will
:22:40. > :22:43.contribute? We could contribute beyond Brexit. It will be a
:22:44. > :22:49.complicated sum. Do you accept that? It could well be a situation like
:22:50. > :22:53.that, and would you support it if the UK contributes to funds we want
:22:54. > :22:58.to be part of during a transitional phase? They will have to accept one
:22:59. > :23:04.thing, there will be some form of continued payments after the UK
:23:05. > :23:10.leads the EU. A figure of... I cannot put any figure on it.
:23:11. > :23:17.Negotiations are so wide at the moment. One thing is clear, the UK
:23:18. > :23:21.will have to do that, and the EU will have to learn to live with far
:23:22. > :23:25.less money than it had. That has been something it is bad at. It will
:23:26. > :23:28.have to find new ways of raising money. You said the British people
:23:29. > :23:34.would have to accept continued payments, what for? It depends. Some
:23:35. > :23:44.payments would be for ongoing programmes we take part in. Like
:23:45. > :23:51.what? Many educational programmes. Research development and so on? Yes.
:23:52. > :23:55.There will be substantial sums that will need to be paid for access to
:23:56. > :23:59.the single market. How much would you be prepared to pay? That is part
:24:00. > :24:05.of the negotiations, as I said. I cannot put a figure on it. I do know
:24:06. > :24:10.it is the largest export market, and without it, our economy is going to
:24:11. > :24:15.suffer greatly. That sounds like we won't be leaving in March, 2019, in
:24:16. > :24:21.a complete and comprehensive way, if we are still paying fines for joint
:24:22. > :24:27.EU- UK initiatives. There are many factors. We will simply, as things
:24:28. > :24:34.stand, not be ready to leave the single market in 2019. We only just
:24:35. > :24:39.started the negotiations on one element of the divorce, we are one
:24:40. > :24:43.year after the referendum and three months from Article 50. It would be
:24:44. > :24:48.astonishing if any government could achieve that complicated deal. So,
:24:49. > :24:53.yes, we will continue paying. We agreed to a multi annual financial
:24:54. > :24:57.framework going through to 2020, with the bills coming after that,
:24:58. > :25:02.and then there is the element of needing to stay within the single
:25:03. > :25:06.market. That may disappoint people in the Conservative Party, not
:25:07. > :25:13.least, and other people as well, if the UK is not out by March, 2019,
:25:14. > :25:18.completely. Revenue streams. In that film, one of the contributors said I
:25:19. > :25:23.don't want new taxes, new revenue streams, will that be unpopular with
:25:24. > :25:27.the Parliament? I think there is real resistance to that sort of move
:25:28. > :25:32.where the European Union can directly start to impose taxation.
:25:33. > :25:37.However, this is also a part of the ongoing debate in Europe today, what
:25:38. > :25:41.is the future of Europe going to be? This, actually, today, has once
:25:42. > :25:49.again become an active question. Don't forget the financial tax back
:25:50. > :25:54.on the table. As you said, we have a long and hot summer ahead of us.
:25:55. > :26:03.Thank you for being our guests today. That is it for now with
:26:04. > :26:09.regards to European politics. Bye bye.
:26:10. > :26:13.After a warm, muggy night, Sunday should bring us some more
:26:14. > :26:17.Not dry everywhere, though, some rain in the forecast too.
:26:18. > :26:20.During Saturday, there were scenes a bit like this.
:26:21. > :26:23.A lot of sunshine around, this is Ceredigion, in Wales.