15/12/2017

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0:00:00 > 0:00:05But first on BBC News, Politics Europe.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43Hello, welcome to Politics Europe, your regular guide to the top

0:00:43 > 0:00:44stories in Brussels and Strasbourg.

0:00:44 > 0:00:48On today's program, EU leaders give the green light to move on to phase

0:00:48 > 0:00:492 of the Brexit talks.

0:00:50 > 0:00:52When will the EU and UK start discussing trade

0:00:52 > 0:00:53and transition period?

0:00:53 > 0:00:54Former European Parliament President, Martin Schultz,

0:00:54 > 0:00:58says that the EU should become a United State of Europe by 2025.

0:00:58 > 0:01:10Is that realistic?

0:01:10 > 0:01:11Could Brexit hasten the process?

0:01:11 > 0:01:13And, was the doner almost a goner?

0:01:13 > 0:01:16A vote in the European Parliament almost skewered the humble frozen

0:01:16 > 0:01:18vertical meat stick, or kebab to you and me.

0:01:18 > 0:01:19We'll chew over the details.

0:01:21 > 0:01:25So, all that to to come and more in the next half an hour

0:01:25 > 0:01:27and joining me for all of it is Ann McElvoy

0:01:27 > 0:01:33from the Economist and the Daily Mail's Andrew Pierce.

0:01:33 > 0:01:36First though, here is our guide to the latest from Europe

0:01:36 > 0:01:39in just 60 seconds.

0:01:40 > 0:01:43Theresa May began the week with a Brexit spring in her step,

0:01:43 > 0:01:46following that deal to move talks onto the next stage.

0:01:46 > 0:01:50But by midweek, was her first defeat in the Commons when MPs voted

0:01:50 > 0:01:53to give Parliament a legal guarantee of a vote on the final deal

0:01:53 > 0:02:00struck in Brussels.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02The European Parliament passed a motion of approving a move

0:02:02 > 0:02:05to phase 2 but not all MPs were supportive.

0:02:05 > 0:02:07Theresa the Appeaser has given in on virtually everything.

0:02:07 > 0:02:10Elsewhere, the new Polish Prime Minister has said his dream

0:02:10 > 0:02:13is to rechristianise the EU, corner for a return to proper values

0:02:13 > 0:02:17in an interview with the Catholic TV channel.

0:02:17 > 0:02:19The European commission President, John Claude Junke is facing

0:02:19 > 0:02:22an investigation over a case involving an alleged illegal wiretap

0:02:22 > 0:02:26when he was Prime Minister of Luxembourg.

0:02:26 > 0:02:30And Emmanuel Macron hosted 50 countries and one kid at a climate

0:02:30 > 0:02:35change summit in Brussels.

0:02:35 > 0:02:38A notable absentee was the US President, Donald Trump but don't

0:02:38 > 0:02:39worry, Arnold Schwarzenegger was there instead.

0:02:43 > 0:02:47Now, one of the stories we saw there was about the new Polish

0:02:47 > 0:02:49minister who wants to rechristianise the EU.

0:02:49 > 0:02:53What do you think about that?

0:02:53 > 0:02:57I think Poland is in the sort of no mates category in Europe.

0:02:57 > 0:02:59It has such a big economy.

0:02:59 > 0:03:01It has turned inwards, it has problems within its legal

0:03:01 > 0:03:04system, its politics have become rather hideous and its views

0:03:04 > 0:03:12of minorities are not good.

0:03:12 > 0:03:16I am just going to say that it is funny that we are nervous

0:03:16 > 0:03:19when we had this argument about this when Germany opposed Turkish entry.

0:03:19 > 0:03:25It is an "in fairness to Poland" clause.

0:03:25 > 0:03:29Angela Merkel had a strong sort of Christian identity and you didn't

0:03:29 > 0:03:32have to be Christian to go to church but there was a Christian

0:03:32 > 0:03:35underpinning to the idea of the EU which historically was true.

0:03:35 > 0:03:38That is one of the reasons why she kept the Germans,

0:03:38 > 0:03:41Austrians and others kept the Turks out.

0:03:41 > 0:03:44It is interesting that has come back and it does not feel

0:03:44 > 0:03:47like it is the right language to be talking about the EU.

0:03:47 > 0:03:50Do you agree?

0:03:50 > 0:03:54As Ann said, it seems a far cry from the days when we were talking

0:03:54 > 0:03:55about accession for Turkey.

0:03:55 > 0:03:58Obviously that became an issue during the EU referendum and now

0:03:58 > 0:04:01we have a new Prime Minister in Poland saying that they want

0:04:01 > 0:04:05the European Union to return to its traditionalChristian routes.

0:04:05 > 0:04:09As a good Roman Catholic boy I ought to welcome this but I am alarmed

0:04:09 > 0:04:12because the politics in Poland have turned very far to the right

0:04:12 > 0:04:14and I think it has got an unhealthy undertone,

0:04:15 > 0:04:18it sounds like it could be a racist undertone so I would

0:04:18 > 0:04:19be quite concerned.

0:04:19 > 0:04:22Now in the last hour, European Union leaders have allowed

0:04:22 > 0:04:26Brexit talks to progress to the next phase.

0:04:26 > 0:04:29Talks have moved into the UK's eventual relationship with the EU.

0:04:29 > 0:04:31It is up for discussion, including trade, transition,

0:04:31 > 0:04:33security, justice and the list goes on.

0:04:33 > 0:04:36The BBC's Adam Fleming caught up with negotiator Michel Garnier

0:04:36 > 0:04:49after the news broke.

0:04:49 > 0:04:50Are you happy?

0:04:50 > 0:04:51It is a big achievement.

0:04:51 > 0:04:53You going to get new guidelines?

0:04:53 > 0:04:54Are looking forward to that?

0:04:54 > 0:04:57When do you think we will have the transition period

0:04:57 > 0:05:01sorted and ready?

0:05:01 > 0:05:03There will be a transition beginning next year.

0:05:03 > 0:05:04When will we know?

0:05:04 > 0:05:19Will we know by March when it is?

0:05:19 > 0:05:22And, joining me now to discuss all of this is the MEP,

0:05:22 > 0:05:25Seb Dance, the leader of Labour in the European Parliament.

0:05:25 > 0:05:28He is here in the studio and the Conservative leader

0:05:28 > 0:05:30in the European Parliament, Ashley Fox MEP joins

0:05:30 > 0:05:32me from Bristol.

0:05:32 > 0:05:36Ashley Fox, first of all what do you want to see in terms

0:05:36 > 0:05:39of Britain's position and status within the EU

0:05:39 > 0:05:42during the implementation phase?

0:05:42 > 0:05:46Well, we want a deep and special partnership with the European Union.

0:05:46 > 0:05:48During that transition period, I think we want to maintain

0:05:48 > 0:05:51equivalence with the customs union, equivalence with the single market,

0:05:51 > 0:05:54so that during that 2-year period, firms do not need to adjust

0:05:54 > 0:06:00their rules again.

0:06:00 > 0:06:03Does that mean still taking rules from the European Union Court

0:06:03 > 0:06:05of Justice and freedom of movement?

0:06:05 > 0:06:07I think that that is something to be negotiated.

0:06:07 > 0:06:09And what is your view?

0:06:09 > 0:06:10It is something to be negotiated.

0:06:10 > 0:06:14I would expect freedom of movement to continue from the 2 years

0:06:14 > 0:06:24after we leave to the end of the transition period.

0:06:24 > 0:06:27Seb says that needs to be negotiated, but formalising

0:06:27 > 0:06:32the transition period and the status of Britain will be part of that.

0:06:32 > 0:06:34It also requires the approval of the European Parliament.

0:06:34 > 0:06:40What is the mood in Brussels and Strasbourg from European MPs?

0:06:40 > 0:06:44I suppose the mood is one of caution, a slight air of relief

0:06:44 > 0:06:47that we have managed to get some progress now obviously because...

0:06:47 > 0:06:47Yes.

0:06:47 > 0:06:50There was a stage towards the end of last week where there

0:06:50 > 0:06:55were really panic stations.

0:06:55 > 0:07:00It looked bad.

0:07:00 > 0:07:03So, there is a sense of progress but ultimately the government has

0:07:03 > 0:07:06caved in on so much that I think the expectation is effectively

0:07:06 > 0:07:09that the transition period will be another example of that.

0:07:09 > 0:07:12The only difference is that we would be able to make any rules,

0:07:13 > 0:07:15we will just be applying them.

0:07:15 > 0:07:17What ways have the government caved in?

0:07:17 > 0:07:19Well, if you look at this one deal, alignment,

0:07:19 > 0:07:23is the post- transition stage.

0:07:23 > 0:07:27That means that the customs union, and the single market.

0:07:27 > 0:07:29Forget regulatory alignment in the areas covered

0:07:29 > 0:07:31by the Good Friday agreement..

0:07:31 > 0:07:33You must accept of the customs union.

0:07:34 > 0:07:36We will not have a say in those rules.

0:07:36 > 0:07:39Do you accept that?

0:07:39 > 0:07:42That there is possibility that Britain remains in the customs union

0:07:42 > 0:07:43beyond transition for many years?

0:07:43 > 0:07:48No, I think Seb Dance is talking nonsense.

0:07:48 > 0:07:51We will leave the customs union and we will leave the single market

0:07:51 > 0:07:54and we will have a separate agreement between the United Kingdom

0:07:54 > 0:07:57and the EU and it is interesting that the Italian Prime Minister

0:07:57 > 0:08:00Gentiloni has already said it would need a tailor-made solution

0:08:00 > 0:08:01for the united kingdom.

0:08:01 > 0:08:07I have to say it must be really difficult to be a Labour MEP

0:08:07 > 0:08:11at the moment because you have to be permanently miserable, top-down.

0:08:11 > 0:08:16Not miserable.

0:08:16 > 0:08:20Mrs May has done really well and she is a formidable politician.

0:08:20 > 0:08:23I would like to know what magical way of squaring this circle you have

0:08:23 > 0:08:26come up with because that is what the text says.

0:08:26 > 0:08:29Unless you can come up with a way of achieving full alignment

0:08:29 > 0:08:32through some other means that the customs union

0:08:32 > 0:08:34and the single market, and incidentally of had 18 months

0:08:34 > 0:08:37to come up with this magic solution and nobody has...

0:08:37 > 0:08:38I'm not remotely miserable.

0:08:38 > 0:08:42I am fascinated at how this magic trick is going to be performed.

0:08:42 > 0:08:44What is your response?

0:08:44 > 0:08:47Seb had not read read the agreement because what it says is,

0:08:47 > 0:08:50we will maintain alignment for those areas where there is north

0:08:50 > 0:08:51south cooperation.

0:08:51 > 0:08:54Look at the 12 areas.

0:08:54 > 0:08:57Some are fairly minor like waterways and tourism,

0:08:57 > 0:08:59the two big ones are agriculture and energy.

0:08:59 > 0:09:03There is already a single energy market and this will not change

0:09:03 > 0:09:10so that challenges related to agriculture.

0:09:10 > 0:09:12We absolutely will not be staying in the customs union.

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Isn't the truth that Labour wants to remain in all but name

0:09:16 > 0:09:19within the single market and the customs union and actually

0:09:19 > 0:09:21you welcome the debate around this issue of full alignment

0:09:21 > 0:09:39regarding the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland?

0:09:39 > 0:09:41This is Labour's gameplan.

0:09:41 > 0:09:45Not to recognise the referendum outcome.

0:09:45 > 0:09:49Say that all you like but I want to stay in the European Union.

0:09:49 > 0:09:51I will not make any bones about that.

0:09:51 > 0:09:55If they decide that they get at the end of this process

0:09:55 > 0:09:59is and what they voted for in the 23 June, it is a reasonable case

0:09:59 > 0:10:01to say, is this what you want to do?

0:10:01 > 0:10:05It is not up to me, it is up to me to make the case.

0:10:05 > 0:10:07Is that not the strategy?

0:10:07 > 0:10:10Labour's strategy is to minimise the damage of what Brexit will do,

0:10:10 > 0:10:12to take a completely different approach to what the Tories

0:10:13 > 0:10:15are doing which is pursue, at all costs, against the principles

0:10:16 > 0:10:17they set, a hard Brexit.

0:10:17 > 0:10:19That is not in the country's interest.

0:10:19 > 0:10:20It is a difficulty.

0:10:20 > 0:10:23In the transition period you won't be able to strike any

0:10:23 > 0:10:24free-trade agreements with other countries,

0:10:24 > 0:10:26non- EU countries, that is correct, isn't it.

0:10:26 > 0:10:29I anticipate we will be able to get into trade negotiations

0:10:30 > 0:10:30but you are correct.

0:10:31 > 0:10:32Until the transition period is concluded,

0:10:32 > 0:10:35I would imagine it to be the first quarter of 2021,

0:10:35 > 0:10:38the new trade arrangements cannot take effect.

0:10:38 > 0:10:41Do you know what the government's position will be, in terms

0:10:41 > 0:10:43of the vision for that trade relationship between Britain

0:10:43 > 0:10:47and the EU?

0:10:47 > 0:10:50David Davies described it as Canada plus plus plus.

0:10:50 > 0:10:53When you look at our free-trade agreement you will see that 98%

0:10:53 > 0:10:58of tariff lines are abolished and set at 0.

0:10:58 > 0:11:02We see no reason why it can't be 0 and then we want an ambitious

0:11:02 > 0:11:08service chapter on top of that.

0:11:08 > 0:11:09Isn't that the problem?

0:11:09 > 0:11:12The deal over services, when you think of what a major part

0:11:12 > 0:11:15of the British economy services actually make up,

0:11:15 > 0:11:18the Canada, and I take your point about plus plus plus plus plus

0:11:18 > 0:11:21but the deal does not include services.

0:11:21 > 0:11:24We start with an easier position because we are in regulatory

0:11:24 > 0:11:28alignment with the EU.

0:11:28 > 0:11:31Our financial services providers have the equivalent regulation

0:11:31 > 0:11:31to the EU.

0:11:31 > 0:11:37That is the point.

0:11:37 > 0:11:40We are coming from a totally different starting point to Canada.

0:11:40 > 0:11:43Therefore, this idea that it is going to be impossible,

0:11:43 > 0:11:45it might take 80 years is wishful thinking.

0:11:45 > 0:11:46-- eight years.

0:11:46 > 0:11:46No.

0:11:46 > 0:11:49That is exactly the point but we have regulatory alignment

0:11:49 > 0:11:51because of course we are in the EU.

0:11:51 > 0:11:54Those regulations are decided by the EU.

0:11:54 > 0:11:57Do we really think that we will be deciding with the European financial

0:11:57 > 0:12:00services regulations will be once we are outside of the institutions

0:12:00 > 0:12:02that set those?

0:12:02 > 0:12:03Of course we won't.

0:12:03 > 0:12:06This is not about taking back control at all.

0:12:06 > 0:12:11Do you think that the arch Brexiteers within the Conservative

0:12:11 > 0:12:15party are going to accept this idea to be part of the European Court

0:12:15 > 0:12:19of Justice for quite a few years, to come and we will take

0:12:19 > 0:12:22is in that sense?

0:12:22 > 0:12:25The Supreme Court has first podium will decide whether to refer

0:12:25 > 0:12:27to the European Court of Justice.

0:12:27 > 0:12:31For most of them they are unhappy about it but they have accepted it

0:12:31 > 0:12:34John McDonald, said the other day, he wants to be in it

0:12:34 > 0:12:38different single market.

0:12:39 > 0:12:44I think they want to keep us in the single market.

0:12:44 > 0:12:47In which case, there is the point leaving the EU.

0:12:47 > 0:12:48Some of us do.

0:12:48 > 0:12:50You say there is no point.

0:12:50 > 0:12:53What you think the phase one agreement has done in terms

0:12:53 > 0:12:56of the customs union?

0:12:56 > 0:12:59Ashley Fox talks about north-south alignment and the DUP enjoyed

0:12:59 > 0:13:00that it was East-West.

0:13:00 > 0:13:03It is a huge chunk of what the Brexit people

0:13:03 > 0:13:09so that we would be doing trade deals on.

0:13:09 > 0:13:12It is now possible and we will not be deciding the rules.

0:13:13 > 0:13:15How do you see full alignment, influencing our future relationship?

0:13:15 > 0:13:18In a nutshell, it will dictate how closely aligned our rules

0:13:18 > 0:13:23and regulations and standards are to the winds of the EU.

0:13:23 > 0:13:24I figure it depends.

0:13:24 > 0:13:30It is a great phrase.

0:13:30 > 0:13:32It reminds me of variable geometry.

0:13:32 > 0:13:35It can be made into anything that you want it to be.

0:13:35 > 0:13:38The position that you are coming from, you say that it

0:13:38 > 0:13:39makes no difference.

0:13:39 > 0:13:42If you have full alignment you should not bother but of course

0:13:42 > 0:13:45you think that because you would not have bothered anyway.

0:13:45 > 0:13:47Remain have been open about that anyway.

0:13:47 > 0:13:49With Ireland, given the difficulty that Ireland presents

0:13:49 > 0:13:52with the internal border, you have a language which allows

0:13:52 > 0:13:56people to make deals which is not, at the same time, saying you might

0:13:56 > 0:13:58as well just accept customs union and the single market

0:13:58 > 0:14:02because you don't have to be very far on the Brexit curve to say

0:14:02 > 0:14:04that these things are not acceptable.

0:14:04 > 0:14:11I think that you are right.

0:14:12 > 0:14:14Your colleague on the other side in Brussels has a point.

0:14:15 > 0:14:18You have to come up with instruments which are going to make this

0:14:18 > 0:14:21at least as less likely to lead to any future problems

0:14:21 > 0:14:26even if you cannot use it to cut every problem through right now.

0:14:27 > 0:14:31Do you think the EU blinked in the end, in order to get

0:14:31 > 0:14:36to the end of phase one?

0:14:36 > 0:14:38I don't think either side blinked.

0:14:38 > 0:14:39It is a difficult negotiation.

0:14:39 > 0:14:42Mrs May showed herself to be a formidable negotiator

0:14:42 > 0:14:43and we reached an equitable compromise.

0:14:43 > 0:14:46These are the most difficult negotiations I think that have been

0:14:46 > 0:14:50undertaken by the United Kingdom since the end of the 2nd World War.

0:14:50 > 0:14:52Mrs May is doing a good job.

0:14:52 > 0:14:54You think David Davis is a formidable negotiator?

0:14:54 > 0:14:55Yes I do.

0:14:55 > 0:14:57I think is doing a good job too.

0:14:57 > 0:14:59It's a shame that we have opposition and

0:14:59 > 0:15:05politicians who pretend to support the country.

0:15:05 > 0:15:09That take delight in every small difficulty.

0:15:09 > 0:15:12Why vote for the motion to approve progress?

0:15:12 > 0:15:14It's whether we are opposing it.

0:15:14 > 0:15:20Why did you MEPs not vote for it?

0:15:20 > 0:15:23We voted in favour specifically of the paragraph that

0:15:23 > 0:15:24called the talks.

0:15:24 > 0:15:27It was a whole load of nonsense put in by a man trying

0:15:27 > 0:15:30to impose his agenda on face to the talks.

0:15:30 > 0:15:34That is not the purpose of the European Parliament.

0:15:35 > 0:15:36Let's leave it there for the moment.

0:15:36 > 0:15:39There have always been tensions in the EU between Federalists

0:15:39 > 0:15:41who want integration in the block and

0:15:41 > 0:15:44those who value member states sovereignty above all else.

0:15:44 > 0:15:48Britain traditionally sat in the 2nd camp,

0:15:48 > 0:15:50but now that we are moving, could plans

0:15:50 > 0:15:52for European federalism be moving ahead at pace?

0:15:52 > 0:15:55Today, at the European Council summit, bidders are expected

0:15:55 > 0:15:57to discuss ways to deepen the Eurozone integration.

0:15:57 > 0:16:01On the table is the possible creation of a budget

0:16:01 > 0:16:03for the Eurozone as well as a Finance Minister

0:16:03 > 0:16:04to represent the block.

0:16:04 > 0:16:06Earlier this week, the European Council adopted

0:16:06 > 0:16:09the creation of a permanent defence and security cooperation network

0:16:09 > 0:16:12known as Pesco.

0:16:12 > 0:16:1525 EU states have signed the defence pact with only Malta,

0:16:15 > 0:16:17Denmark and the United Kingdom choosing not to take part.

0:16:17 > 0:16:26It will integrate military planning, weapons

0:16:26 > 0:16:28development and operations that will rely on a 5 billion

0:16:28 > 0:16:29Euro defence fund.

0:16:29 > 0:16:31Last week, the leader of Germany's centre-left

0:16:31 > 0:16:34social Democrats, or SBD, and former European Parliament President called

0:16:35 > 0:16:37for the creation of a United States of Europe.

0:16:37 > 0:16:40Shultz told SDP delegates that he wanted EU member states

0:16:40 > 0:16:42to sign off on a constitutional treaty,

0:16:42 > 0:16:44committing them to take steps towards a federal Europe.

0:16:44 > 0:16:49Do you think it will catch on, this idea of a United States of Europe?

0:16:49 > 0:16:52It has always been there in the minds of

0:16:52 > 0:16:55federalists.

0:16:55 > 0:16:57It depends on what you call federalists.

0:16:57 > 0:17:00It has been there.

0:17:00 > 0:17:03That is in division of Europe stretching back over 20 years.

0:17:03 > 0:17:06I spent time in Germany recently, looking at Angela Merkel's

0:17:06 > 0:17:07situation.

0:17:08 > 0:17:10Martin Schultz, sitting there on 20.5% of the vote,

0:17:10 > 0:17:13don't forget, he has had a very bad election,

0:17:13 > 0:17:16he needs to have something that from his perspective is very

0:17:16 > 0:17:23pro-European.

0:17:23 > 0:17:26Where he has come from, into this part of German politics,

0:17:26 > 0:17:28he wants to offer something very bold and visionary

0:17:28 > 0:17:32and I think his view is that you go will tilt for it.

0:17:32 > 0:17:36You stop saying that you don't want it.

0:17:36 > 0:17:39That helps you get on with Mr Macron.

0:17:39 > 0:17:45You can do something forward.

0:17:45 > 0:17:48Do you think greater integration is the way that it is heading?

0:17:48 > 0:17:50I think in many areas, yes.

0:17:50 > 0:17:51In many areas no.

0:17:51 > 0:17:53We probably will see the emergence of Europe going forward.

0:17:54 > 0:17:55Do you support the idea?

0:17:55 > 0:17:58I think inevitably people will go further in some areas.

0:17:58 > 0:17:59Not as far in others.

0:17:59 > 0:18:02At the end of the day the European Union it's a union

0:18:02 > 0:18:05of states and it is the member states themselves that decide how

0:18:06 > 0:18:14far are comfortable at any given point.

0:18:14 > 0:18:17Frankly, there will always be federalists and there will be those

0:18:17 > 0:18:23that prize the sovereignty of member states above all else and that

0:18:23 > 0:18:25conflict will always be there, but the buck

0:18:25 > 0:18:26stops with the member states.

0:18:26 > 0:18:28That conflict will always be there.

0:18:28 > 0:18:30As a result of that conflict then, he

0:18:30 > 0:18:33actually see it happening in terms of having a budget Minister,

0:18:33 > 0:18:36if you like, and there is already a sort of

0:18:36 > 0:18:39Foreign Minister but also that sort of close co-operation on defence.

0:18:39 > 0:18:41In the end, national values will trump,

0:18:41 > 0:18:43won't they, for many countries in the EU.

0:18:43 > 0:18:44I would agree.

0:18:44 > 0:18:45My concern over this structured defence

0:18:45 > 0:18:48cooperation is set up as a rival to NATO.

0:18:48 > 0:18:50If it results in the European nationstates spending more

0:18:50 > 0:18:52on defence, that is to be welcomed.

0:18:52 > 0:18:55But what we don't want is several more divisions of bureaucrats

0:18:55 > 0:18:57who don't actually add to defence capability.

0:18:57 > 0:19:00Doesn't it make sense to have those countries remaining within the EU,

0:19:00 > 0:19:01coming closer together?

0:19:01 > 0:19:02For the Eurozone, you're probably right.

0:19:05 > 0:19:09The Euro is set up very badly,

0:19:09 > 0:19:11with economies that weren't convergent and

0:19:11 > 0:19:18too many States, we see many problems.

0:19:18 > 0:19:20There probably needs to be a greater fiscal capacity

0:19:21 > 0:19:21for the Eurozone.

0:19:21 > 0:19:25I am delighted that the United Kingdom is not part of that.

0:19:25 > 0:19:27Would you like to be part of it?

0:19:27 > 0:19:31If Britain were to stay in the EU, would you have been a fan

0:19:31 > 0:19:32of being part of that closer integration?

0:19:33 > 0:19:40In defence it makes sense given the level of threat that we have,

0:19:40 > 0:19:45but we've got to counter this idea that there

0:19:45 > 0:19:46is somehow undermining NATO.

0:19:46 > 0:19:49Britain and France have done operations under a joint EU

0:19:49 > 0:19:50flag in fact.

0:19:50 > 0:19:52We have, that have not undermined our contribution

0:19:52 > 0:19:53to NATO.

0:19:53 > 0:19:56It has not undermined the security of the North Atlantic

0:19:56 > 0:19:58Treaty organisation in any way shape or form.

0:19:58 > 0:20:00You can have multiple layers of defence without

0:20:00 > 0:20:01undermining existing layers.

0:20:01 > 0:20:03Would it be a good thing?

0:20:03 > 0:20:03No.

0:20:03 > 0:20:05If this had been around before the referendum,

0:20:05 > 0:20:08with Schultz and other people talking about a United States,

0:20:08 > 0:20:10the referendum would have been even bigger.

0:20:10 > 0:20:13People do not like the idea of the United States and Brussels

0:20:13 > 0:20:16taking even more power away from sovereign parliaments.

0:20:16 > 0:20:25If there a problem with Germany, or it seems

0:20:25 > 0:20:28like a dictat from Martin Schulz in this position.

0:20:28 > 0:20:29To control everything within the EU.

0:20:29 > 0:20:33Yes, there is a problem with Germany.

0:20:33 > 0:20:36They run the whole show.

0:20:36 > 0:20:37What show?

0:20:37 > 0:20:41That is what it is.

0:20:41 > 0:20:43That is the fact for Germany running the show.

0:20:44 > 0:20:48Germany is obviously the economic powerhouse.

0:20:48 > 0:20:57The French end of the Franco German relationship is not at its strongest

0:20:57 > 0:21:00and now there is a challenge, but this is not the position

0:21:00 > 0:21:03of Angela Merkel who is likely to see and had

0:21:03 > 0:21:04the government as we go forward.

0:21:04 > 0:21:06It is the position of the underbidder.

0:21:06 > 0:21:09You take offence at this idea that Germany runs the show.

0:21:09 > 0:21:16Absolutely.

0:21:16 > 0:21:19Germany is the largest economy, incidentally had we stayed

0:21:19 > 0:21:21in the EU, we were on course to be

0:21:21 > 0:21:28the biggest economy in the EU.

0:21:28 > 0:21:31And Britain could have run the show but we'll never know.

0:21:31 > 0:21:33The idea that the Germany runs the show.

0:21:33 > 0:21:34Look through German eyes.

0:21:34 > 0:21:37Here we have the biggest military power in the European Union

0:21:37 > 0:21:38leaving.

0:21:38 > 0:21:41At a time we have threats from Russia, at a time when we have

0:21:42 > 0:21:45less than concrete assurances from a good allies in the United States

0:21:45 > 0:21:46and President Trump.

0:21:46 > 0:21:49There is a lot of nervousness around.

0:21:49 > 0:21:51We will continue to.

0:21:51 > 0:21:53To have a European layer of integration makes sense.

0:21:53 > 0:21:55In the run-up to the referendum, David

0:21:55 > 0:21:58Cameron spent a lot of time trying to get concessions from the EU

0:21:58 > 0:22:01and spent most of his time talking to Mrs

0:22:01 > 0:22:08Merkel because that is where it is.

0:22:08 > 0:22:11And with that we'll have a goodbye to our guests.

0:22:11 > 0:22:12Are doners almost goners?

0:22:12 > 0:22:15A vote in the European Parliament seeking to ban

0:22:15 > 0:22:17phosphates from frozen from the meat fell short.

0:22:17 > 0:22:19There were 3 votes and the British MEPs

0:22:19 > 0:22:22did their bit to save the frozen vertical meat spit, or kebabs

0:22:22 > 0:22:27as they are known by us.

0:22:27 > 0:22:30Instead of saying the EU is banning kebabs, that is not right.

0:22:31 > 0:22:35The media and companies should be asking the commission why

0:22:35 > 0:22:38the commission is making food less healthy and worse because that is

0:22:38 > 0:22:40ultimately what the whole story is about.

0:22:40 > 0:22:44The Greens and social democrats are simply spreading panic.

0:22:44 > 0:22:48The reason why that is not the case is that phosphates are allowed

0:22:48 > 0:22:52in many foods, but they are naturally present in many foods.

0:22:52 > 0:22:56If they were such a great risk to human health we would all have

0:22:56 > 0:22:57been ill long ago.

0:22:57 > 0:22:59Ibrahim Dogus, the founder of the British Kebab awards

0:22:59 > 0:23:01is here to chew this all over.

0:23:01 > 0:23:08Those puns.

0:23:08 > 0:23:09Are you relieved?

0:23:10 > 0:23:12We welcome the position taken by the European Parliament to allow

0:23:13 > 0:23:14kebabs to be made.

0:23:14 > 0:23:16What are phosphates used for in making Doner kebabs?

0:23:16 > 0:23:19The phosphates are used in a very small section of industry,

0:23:19 > 0:23:22in the frozen doner kebab industry.

0:23:22 > 0:23:25The majority of kebabs shops are using home-made kebabs

0:23:25 > 0:23:30and they don't use phosphates.

0:23:30 > 0:23:34But still, it is to keep meat moist and also give it a bit of flavour.

0:23:34 > 0:23:35It is an additive.

0:23:35 > 0:23:37There are many others used in many other

0:23:37 > 0:23:42industries.

0:23:42 > 0:23:44If they are only be used for a small number,

0:23:44 > 0:23:48would have had that much of an impact if it was banned?

0:23:48 > 0:23:50It would not impact British kebabs but in Germany,

0:23:50 > 0:23:53frozen donor kebabs industries are bigger than it is in Britain.

0:23:53 > 0:23:56In Britain we have more restaurants and more takeaway

0:23:56 > 0:24:00stores making their own doner kebabs, but a frozen doner kebab

0:24:00 > 0:24:04is still part of the industry and it would have been bad to ban the use

0:24:04 > 0:24:05of phosphates in industry.

0:24:05 > 0:24:11How unhealthy is it to have phosphates as part of the process?

0:24:11 > 0:24:15The European food standards agency and safety authority made

0:24:15 > 0:24:20an assessment in 2013, confirming there is no

0:24:20 > 0:24:23health risk for any product using phosphates, it does not cause

0:24:23 > 0:24:25any direct health risk to consumers at all.

0:24:25 > 0:24:26How are you celebrating?

0:24:26 > 0:24:34With a plate of kebabs?

0:24:34 > 0:24:35With a big kebab.

0:24:35 > 0:24:37I'm glad to hear it.

0:24:37 > 0:24:39It is unfortunate because everybody is hungry.

0:24:39 > 0:24:41What is your view on this great doner kebabs

0:24:41 > 0:24:49debate?

0:24:49 > 0:24:52I'm not a great eater of donor kebabs, I have

0:24:52 > 0:24:54to say but if you're happy, I'm happy.

0:24:54 > 0:24:56Do you eat kebabs?

0:24:56 > 0:24:59I have a feeling that I fund a lot of kebab eating

0:24:59 > 0:25:00from my teenage sons.

0:25:00 > 0:25:04If they didn't like the ones with as many additives I would be

0:25:04 > 0:25:06happy to nudge it in that direction.

0:25:06 > 0:25:08For British MEPs that actually helped the industry here,

0:25:08 > 0:25:13there are falling a function in here.

0:25:13 > 0:25:162 more years to go and they can carry on doing good work.

0:25:16 > 0:25:18And then our parliament can sort this out.

0:25:19 > 0:25:21You can't underestimate the work that they are

0:25:21 > 0:25:22doing at the moment.

0:25:22 > 0:25:24Do you do any lobbying?

0:25:24 > 0:25:28We didn't do any direct lobbying.

0:25:28 > 0:25:31We knew the MEPs are sensible people.

0:25:31 > 0:25:32What make you think that, exactly?

0:25:32 > 0:25:36Most of our MEPs have been doing great work for many years.

0:25:36 > 0:25:37We would expect them.

0:25:37 > 0:25:38Is Nigel Farage on your side?

0:25:38 > 0:25:40That is it for now.

0:25:40 > 0:25:41Thanks to all of my guests.

0:25:41 > 0:25:44Obviously, to you too for being our guests of the day.

0:25:44 > 0:25:50From all of us here, goodbye.