:00:15. > :00:17.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland, on the programme today.
:00:18. > :00:22.The UK Government faces its first defeat in the Lords over Brexit.
:00:23. > :00:25.Did tactical voting in last year's Holyrood election lead to the SNP
:00:26. > :00:31.And the Justice Secretary defends a plan to cut the number
:00:32. > :00:39.So far the UK government's article 50 bill has had a relatively smooth
:00:40. > :00:43.But tonight it could be defeated for the first time,
:00:44. > :00:54.Our Westminster Correspondent David Porter joins me now.
:00:55. > :01:01.Any chance of a revolt? The Lords don't always perhaps revolt in the
:01:02. > :01:05.way we think they do but there is an expectation that tonight they will
:01:06. > :01:09.ask the UK Government to think again. This is all to do with an
:01:10. > :01:19.amendment about guaranteed rights of EU nationals to remain within the UK
:01:20. > :01:23.when Britain exits the EU. It has the support of Labour, the Lib Dems
:01:24. > :01:26.and a significant number of crossbenchers and the setting seems
:01:27. > :01:31.to be that it will be carried tonight, which will mean for the
:01:32. > :01:39.first time that the reason may has been defeated on an aspect of the
:01:40. > :01:42.Brexit legislation. It went through the House of Commons and was also
:01:43. > :01:46.then, it has now come to the House of Lords and the giving it the
:01:47. > :01:49.detailed line by line scrutiny. As we say we think this amendment will
:01:50. > :01:53.go through tonight but then what will happen is it will go back to
:01:54. > :01:58.the House of Commons and they will overturn it.
:01:59. > :02:03.And possibly compromise? There is talk of compromise and this
:02:04. > :02:08.amendment talks about our bundle of three months to look at the issue
:02:09. > :02:11.further. A lot of people have been seen to Theresa May that it would be
:02:12. > :02:16.a sign of good faith in the negotiations if you said that all EU
:02:17. > :02:19.nationals who are currently in the UK would be able to stay and then
:02:20. > :02:24.for her to seek a reciprocal agreement about UK nationals living
:02:25. > :02:29.and working in the EU. The May has said she thinks it is a good idea
:02:30. > :02:34.but said that she cannot tie her hands in any negotiations and give
:02:35. > :02:37.too much ground without getting something back in return. The
:02:38. > :02:41.problem for her is that when it comes to the nitty-gritty of the
:02:42. > :02:46.negotiations, while she might want to get the issue of EU nationals in
:02:47. > :02:51.the UK and UK nationals in the EU sorted out fairly quickly, there is
:02:52. > :02:55.no guarantee that the other 27 states will be quite as keen to
:02:56. > :02:59.greater timescale. You may want to talk with financial issues and they
:03:00. > :03:02.might say that we will sort that out sometime down the line so we know in
:03:03. > :03:06.principle that the UK Government thinks this is a good idea but it
:03:07. > :03:11.says at the moment it cannot bind its own hands in the negotiating
:03:12. > :03:15.process until it knows what EU states are going to say in response.
:03:16. > :03:19.But all indications are tonight for the first time in this legislation
:03:20. > :03:24.that the government will be defeated.
:03:25. > :03:29.And the lordships, David, hardly in the mid to revolt or happy more in
:03:30. > :03:32.the mood do you think to perhaps intervene in the Brexit process with
:03:33. > :03:38.some constructive ideas? I think it is more likely to be the
:03:39. > :03:41.latter, they will have seen that the legislation went to the House of
:03:42. > :03:46.Commons and went through the House of Commons not changed or amended in
:03:47. > :03:49.any way. I think on this issue in which they feel strongly about it
:03:50. > :03:53.they will say to the House of Commons, have a think about this
:03:54. > :03:56.again. We have given you a potential copper mines. See if you can live
:03:57. > :04:01.with it. But all indications seem to be from UK ministers that they are
:04:02. > :04:05.relatively relaxed about this and expect to be defeated tonight, they
:04:06. > :04:10.will take the defeat and when it goes back to the House of Commons
:04:11. > :04:13.they will reverse that and I think at the moment the feeling seems to
:04:14. > :04:17.be that if the House of Commons basically stamp sets foot and says
:04:18. > :04:21.we are going to do it this way the House of Lords will not push it too
:04:22. > :04:23.far. If you can cope with the sunshine we
:04:24. > :04:25.will see you later on. Staying with Brexit and at Holyrood
:04:26. > :04:27.the Economy Committee says businesses should be given more
:04:28. > :04:29.Scottish government support to expand into emerging markets
:04:30. > :04:32.such as China and India, MSPs were debating the committee's
:04:33. > :04:36.report on the economic impact of Brexit on Scotland
:04:37. > :04:38.and unanimously backed a motion to "note" its conclusions
:04:39. > :04:40.and recommendations. Here's a flavour of
:04:41. > :04:55.the debate yesterday. Let's start with exports. Should
:04:56. > :05:00.Scotland in for the rest of the world rather than for the rest of
:05:01. > :05:04.the EU? Helpfully, doctors alike of the European policy Centre out of
:05:05. > :05:12.his own question, it is about what he said rather than either. Other
:05:13. > :05:14.witnesses told us that much of our trade was invariably with the most
:05:15. > :05:24.immediate neighbours, the rest of the UK. This is known as the
:05:25. > :05:34.proximity defence. Generally this is true for food and drink, I want gas
:05:35. > :05:39.and steel. -- oil and gas and steel. Yet the economies are those of and
:05:40. > :05:44.India. Where a silver medal and where the growth potential could be
:05:45. > :05:49.greatest. -- where our sales remain low. Should we be optimistic about
:05:50. > :05:54.this post Brexit? James Withers of Scotland food and drinks are global
:05:55. > :05:59.opportunities, he described the potential in premium markets,
:06:00. > :06:05.tapping into consumerist desires for quality, authenticity and
:06:06. > :06:11.provenance. Companies represented by the China Britain business Council,
:06:12. > :06:15.hopeful of a free-trade deal of some kind. But we must strive to
:06:16. > :06:21.encourage a more international mentality. Jane got reminded us that
:06:22. > :06:27.50% of Scotland's exports are still generated by just 50 companies, the
:06:28. > :06:30.challenge is to promote international thinking. And to help
:06:31. > :06:36.her small and medium-sized companies develop. We know that if MPs are
:06:37. > :06:42.central to the success of our economy. We share the committee
:06:43. > :06:45.concerned on trade and inward investment in the labour market, and
:06:46. > :06:50.rising inflation. We are taking a number of actions that will impact
:06:51. > :06:53.these areas, like the enterprising skills review which is examining how
:06:54. > :06:56.better we can support efforts to internationalise the Scottish
:06:57. > :07:01.economy, improve the range and quality of data and enhance the
:07:02. > :07:04.supply skills. But let's not be in any doubt, Scotland can trade with
:07:05. > :07:08.the rest of the UK, the EU and the rest of the world most effectively
:07:09. > :07:13.if preferably the whole of the UK but at least Scotland remains inside
:07:14. > :07:17.the European single market. The reality is that the gung ho Brexit
:07:18. > :07:20.years and the UK Government often seem woefully ignorant of how global
:07:21. > :07:27.trade actually functions of the 21st century. The presenting no coherent
:07:28. > :07:30.plan to see the UK through the motorist period that. When the Prime
:07:31. > :07:35.Minister triggers article 50, whenever that is. The government is
:07:36. > :07:38.confident that proportion responses are under way in any is of concern
:07:39. > :07:42.highlighted by the committee. These will be set out in full in a written
:07:43. > :07:49.response to the report. The report highlights the importance of the UK.
:07:50. > :07:51.There is a recommendation that the Scottish Government should focus on
:07:52. > :07:55.further integration with the rest of the UK market and support expansion
:07:56. > :07:59.of this trading relationship. This view was echoed by a number of
:08:00. > :08:02.witnesses including Professor Mackay of the University of St Andrews who
:08:03. > :08:07.said Scotland's number one priority must always be to keep that trade
:08:08. > :08:10.relationship with the rest of the UK open and fluid. The importance of
:08:11. > :08:14.domestic trading market was highlighted by squatters, figures or
:08:15. > :08:18.lease last month. Since 2002 Scotland's trade with the rest of
:08:19. > :08:26.the UK has increased by 75% while exports to the EU in this period
:08:27. > :08:29.have increased by only 8%. In conclusion is a welcome addition to
:08:30. > :08:33.the debate on the economic impact of leaving the EU. We should work
:08:34. > :08:36.towards Scotland having the best possible access to European markets.
:08:37. > :08:40.We think the best way to achieve this will be through a UK wide
:08:41. > :08:43.approach that secures the best possible Brexit trade agreement for
:08:44. > :08:49.Scotland. We need to make sure there is capacity to engage in new trade
:08:50. > :08:52.deals at both government and business level. For Scotland I think
:08:53. > :08:59.we can learn much from the Scotch whiskey industry, building on
:09:00. > :09:03.knowledge and global reach. But the Scotch whiskey industry is at risk
:09:04. > :09:07.post Brexit and indeed we know that the most pressing risk and task for
:09:08. > :09:11.the sector is losing out to markets further afield in East Asia and
:09:12. > :09:15.South America. Exporting to these markets is currently supported by EU
:09:16. > :09:21.brokered agreements. Scotch whiskey is a major employer and how united
:09:22. > :09:25.industry across the UK and of course this is a major provider of good
:09:26. > :09:29.jobs and many otherwise isolated communities as well as across the
:09:30. > :09:32.central belt. Surely these are exactly the types of jobs that we
:09:33. > :09:38.should be prioritising? I have written to David Mundell today
:09:39. > :09:42.asking the team needs with the GNP to urge the UK Government to
:09:43. > :09:43.prioritise Scotch whiskey and I hope the Scottish Government supports
:09:44. > :09:44.such an approach. With me in the studio this
:09:45. > :09:47.week is Andy Maciver, director of the PR agency
:09:48. > :09:49.Message Matters, and former head of communications
:09:50. > :09:57.for the Scottish Conservatives. Let's talk about independence
:09:58. > :10:00.referendums, which are dominating everything at the moment. Nicola
:10:01. > :10:05.Sturgeon speech yesterday, if there is another way of saying I want one
:10:06. > :10:10.that is even stronger, she will struggle to find it. I thought the
:10:11. > :10:14.speech was a significant wrapping up of the rhetoric that the error
:10:15. > :10:17.before, I think the difference with classmate is that it started to use
:10:18. > :10:22.the language I expect we will start to see in the independent referendum
:10:23. > :10:26.itself, the narrative is very much Scotland against the hard Brexit
:10:27. > :10:29.Tories. And a lot of the rhetoric that is being used was pretty
:10:30. > :10:34.overblown stuff about what the Tories downsize what to do to
:10:35. > :10:37.devolution and cloying powers back in that sort of thing. It almost
:10:38. > :10:41.doesn't matter what the reality of Brexit is now, what we're seeing is
:10:42. > :10:46.Brexit being used as the vehicle to form the narrative of the referendum
:10:47. > :10:49.campaign. That is not a criticism necessarily, you would expect the
:10:50. > :10:54.SNP has got to do that, as that is what the campaign will be based on.
:10:55. > :10:58.Is Nicola Sturgeon leaving herself aware? It is very high risk for her
:10:59. > :11:05.as it is for treason made, is she leaving herself a way out? She's
:11:06. > :11:09.closing down the avenues to get out of this. It is extremely risky
:11:10. > :11:13.because if she loses then she has to go in the same way as I think if to
:11:14. > :11:16.Reza may lose and she has to go but I think avenues after closing down.
:11:17. > :11:19.If you think about the government Brexit paper there with the
:11:20. > :11:23.opportunities the referendum not to be held, one was the UK staying in
:11:24. > :11:28.the single market, one of Scotland's staying in the single market and we
:11:29. > :11:31.should consider that to be gone, and the other in Scotland being given
:11:32. > :11:35.extra powers both the ones that are being repatriated from the EU and
:11:36. > :11:39.other ones that are just at Westminster. I don't see anybody in
:11:40. > :11:43.the UK Government or Scottish Tory party realistically talking about
:11:44. > :11:46.that prospect so I think it is very difficult for a clustered into that
:11:47. > :11:52.out of this. The obvious next move is a British government says we will
:11:53. > :11:56.be announcing shortly and then an entry will do this this and this, we
:11:57. > :12:01.understand what Scots, said, is a huge package. Surely on the basis of
:12:02. > :12:06.that you will not argue for breaking up the UK when we have given the all
:12:07. > :12:10.of this? Why would they take that option? Simply because in my
:12:11. > :12:13.lifetime have always been reactive when it comes to Scotland, they have
:12:14. > :12:17.never been ahead of the curve and then proactively said let's look at
:12:18. > :12:21.what Scotland might look like in 152050 years' time, we have always
:12:22. > :12:25.said let's react to what has just happened and give them a little more
:12:26. > :12:30.power and I don't think the arrow that strategic when it comes to
:12:31. > :12:34.Scotland. Do you think they have an attack of strategic vision in the
:12:35. > :12:36.next few months? It is possible but I haven't heard anything in that
:12:37. > :12:38.direction so far. Lets cross to the chamber
:12:39. > :12:40.of Holyrood now where the Scottish Conservatives are
:12:41. > :12:42.leading a debate on the abolition of the Scottish Funding Council
:12:43. > :12:44.Board. Lets take a look and
:12:45. > :12:51.see who's speaking. On the 16th of November it was the
:12:52. > :12:55.turn of the Scottish funding Council and the 7th of December 20 16th we
:12:56. > :13:01.have from the Cabinet Secretary for economy jobs in the work about those
:13:02. > :13:03.changes to the full agencies of skills enterprise in education
:13:04. > :13:08.function including the Scottish funding Council. That day Keith
:13:09. > :13:11.Brown set out the Scottish common vision for Scotland's economic
:13:12. > :13:14.strategy, part of which involve the proposed amalgamation of the
:13:15. > :13:17.enterprising skills agencies so there would be in his Word strength
:13:18. > :13:21.and support for the nation 's economic ambitions. Mr Brown told us
:13:22. > :13:24.that the establishment of an overarching super board was
:13:25. > :13:28.necessary in order to effectively align the services they deliver. He
:13:29. > :13:34.also confirmed no fewer than three times to myself and John Mallett and
:13:35. > :13:37.Daniel Johnson that the boards of the current agencies would be
:13:38. > :13:40.abolished, a statement then confirmed by John Swinney at the
:13:41. > :13:43.audit committee of the second figure the oval use carefully to add that
:13:44. > :13:47.this abolition did not involve the abolition of the funding council
:13:48. > :13:49.itself. Something that had originally been a concern for the
:13:50. > :13:54.colleges and universities when America was proposed. There we have
:13:55. > :13:58.it. On record not just from an Cabinet secretary but to, that the
:13:59. > :14:02.board of the Scottish funding Council would be abolished. Not
:14:03. > :14:05.surprisingly this raised further questions from the further and
:14:06. > :14:08.higher education sectors and from MSP is about the justification for
:14:09. > :14:12.the smooth and on what evidence the proposal was based. We received from
:14:13. > :14:17.Mr Brown in response to questioning from the convener of the education
:14:18. > :14:21.committee of robust as another reason for having an overarching
:14:22. > :14:24.board. He said it would provide much better strategic alignment of the
:14:25. > :14:27.delivery of schools enterprise in education, a decoupling of the
:14:28. > :14:32.agency landscape, a solicitation of the support networks and the removal
:14:33. > :14:38.of the tensions between national and regional delivery. Policy principles
:14:39. > :14:41.which were generally finding favour with university and college Scotland
:14:42. > :14:45.and enterprising business. What Mr Brown complete is to address was the
:14:46. > :14:50.other side of the coin. Exactly why did the strategic alignment mean
:14:51. > :14:54.that the individual agency board each with the separate legal status
:14:55. > :15:00.have to be abolished? What was the evidence for this part of the
:15:01. > :15:06.proposal? My colleagues have a Scot in Manning asked Keith Brown for a
:15:07. > :15:10.list of the organisations with links to the Central board. After intense
:15:11. > :15:14.questioning and an inability to answer the question it appeared that
:15:15. > :15:17.the only body the Cabinet Secretary could name was called Scotland but
:15:18. > :15:21.on further investigation it transpired that while Colin Scotland
:15:22. > :15:24.received merit in the strategic alignment of agency workers had not
:15:25. > :15:30.been any specific commitment it is double its SSE board.
:15:31. > :15:37.Of course, what we know only too well from the submissions made to
:15:38. > :15:44.the commission and from the recent debate is that there was no such
:15:45. > :15:50.debate to admonish the boards. Instead, I would suggest that a
:15:51. > :15:53.letter arrived Mr Brown's desk specifically advising against the
:15:54. > :15:57.abolition of the Scottish funding Council board but maybe the Scottish
:15:58. > :16:03.Government might like to confirm the existence of that letter sent
:16:04. > :16:06.attempt to do so have so far achieved nothing but obligation.
:16:07. > :16:12.What really happened is that the Scottish Government made up their
:16:13. > :16:17.mind before phase one had even begun that the boards would be abolished
:16:18. > :16:22.and one board would replace them, but there was no support for this
:16:23. > :16:26.last summer. So all we got was, don't worry, because in phase two,
:16:27. > :16:31.that will allow us to debate what is the best Government structure.
:16:32. > :16:34.Unbelievably, ministers couldn't understand why MSPs and stakeholders
:16:35. > :16:38.were so concerned. But we were surely right to be concerned. A
:16:39. > :16:41.point that was very strongly made by Ross Greer at committee when he
:16:42. > :16:45.questioned the logic of making up your mind about what's going to
:16:46. > :16:52.happen and then hope that you can find enough evidence to support it.
:16:53. > :16:54.Well, that was Liz Smith speaking in the Scottish parliament. Andy
:16:55. > :16:59.Maciver is still with me. Following on from what you were saying, what
:17:00. > :17:05.does the Scottish Government do next then? There is an SNP conference
:17:06. > :17:10.coming up. Yes, and there is a bit of debate as to what the timing of
:17:11. > :17:14.any of this should be. There is a heavy rumour that she will announce
:17:15. > :17:18.at the conference that she wants to have another referendum and there
:17:19. > :17:22.will be a vote to ask for a section 30 order but conversely it looks
:17:23. > :17:26.like it will be right back at the end of March that Theresa May
:17:27. > :17:32.announces the article 50 letter is going in and there is some thought
:17:33. > :17:36.that that is made the -- that is maybe Nicola Sturgeon's Op
:17:37. > :17:43.opportunity to say that they could be another referendum. Presumably
:17:44. > :17:49.she could say that she is going to ask for a second 30 order, allowing
:17:50. > :17:54.her to hold one whenever she wanted? I would imagine there will be a vote
:17:55. > :17:58.to ask for a referendum and then you have to go through the process of
:17:59. > :18:01.asking the British Government to have a referendum and then the
:18:02. > :18:05.British Government have decided on their original section 30 allowing
:18:06. > :18:10.them legal responsibility -- the legal ability to hold a referendum.
:18:11. > :18:15.This will be all about the timing. It looks like that response from the
:18:16. > :18:20.British Government might be, yes, but you will have it when we tell
:18:21. > :18:24.you that you can. When being presumably after the Brexit
:18:25. > :18:31.negotiations? Presumably after the Brexit negotiations so that the
:18:32. > :18:38.argument that the SNP will use, that they voted to stay in, that would
:18:39. > :18:41.make that argument redundant. Would Nicola Sturgeon have to commit
:18:42. > :18:44.herself as far as you are suggesting to pay that there will be another
:18:45. > :18:50.referendum? I am asking for a section 30. Or can she say, we have
:18:51. > :18:55.been saying for weeks that if we don't get, we see no sign of
:18:56. > :18:58.movement on the part of the British Government, I'm not saying we are
:18:59. > :19:02.going to have a referendum but we're going to ask for a section 30 order
:19:03. > :19:06.because if they keep behaving like this, we certainly want one. I
:19:07. > :19:10.suppose she could do but I'm not sure that doesn't amount to the same
:19:11. > :19:14.thing. If you are asking for the power to hold one. I don't think the
:19:15. > :19:20.British Government would say yes to a section 30 without calling a
:19:21. > :19:22.referendum in the first place because that would be a blank cheque
:19:23. > :19:27.and I don't think they would allow Nicola Sturgeon to have that. We
:19:28. > :19:42.will be with you again later on, Andy, but for now I am joined by
:19:43. > :19:46.some SNP 's. -- MSPs. Now, I wonder, Rory Grant, first of all, I don't
:19:47. > :19:50.know if you can hear what we are saying, what did you make of Nicola
:19:51. > :19:55.Sturgeon's comments about an independence referendum last night?
:19:56. > :19:59.It seems to me that she is getting increasingly desperate and looking
:20:00. > :20:03.for excuses to hold a referendum. She knows quite clearly that the
:20:04. > :20:07.Scottish people don't want it and she is trying to manufacture
:20:08. > :20:10.arguments to have it. I think she needs to be a wee bit careful
:20:11. > :20:15.because I think she's marching her supporters up to the top of the hill
:20:16. > :20:18.and if there's not enough support for a second independence
:20:19. > :20:22.referendum, it will be disastrous for her, because they wait to be
:20:23. > :20:27.expecting her now to announce that at conference and I don't know how
:20:28. > :20:29.she backs down from that. If she announces it at conference, she
:20:30. > :20:36.loses her sabre that she's been rattling since Brexit. Where will
:20:37. > :20:40.she go from there? What is your answer to the question that Rhoda
:20:41. > :20:43.Grant has just asked, Richard Lochhead? Clearly the First Minister
:20:44. > :20:46.is exceptionally frustrated as we all are and all should be over the
:20:47. > :20:52.lack of recognition from the UK Government of the fact that 62% of
:20:53. > :20:55.Scots voted to remain within Europe. Scottish ministers have bent over
:20:56. > :20:59.backwards to reach a compromise position with the UK Government and
:21:00. > :21:04.we are getting nothing back in terms of retaining a relationship with the
:21:05. > :21:08.single market in Europe at the very least. We are getting nothing back
:21:09. > :21:14.from the UK Government. They seem to be completely ignoring the views of
:21:15. > :21:20.the Scottish people. If you were Nicola Sturgeon, what would you do?
:21:21. > :21:28.Lily a lot of this depends on the UK Government's response of our request
:21:29. > :21:32.to have our view is taken into account. Article 50 has not been
:21:33. > :21:36.triggered so the exit process has not started yet and clearly the
:21:37. > :21:40.Scottish Government is asking for bespoke arrangement here in
:21:41. > :21:44.Scotland. If the UK Government refused to do that, of course the
:21:45. > :21:46.debate moves up another year and there is potentially another
:21:47. > :21:50.referendum, but let's see what happens. It's still in the hands of
:21:51. > :21:54.the UK Government. Do you think she could say, there is going to be a
:21:55. > :21:58.referendum but not for a year or something like that? Would you be
:21:59. > :22:02.prepared to commit yourself to that? What I will say is that each day
:22:03. > :22:07.that goes by, it seems more likely we will have to have another
:22:08. > :22:12.independence referendum if we want Scotland's democratically expressed
:22:13. > :22:16.wishes to be taken on board and have our own sake in Europe. I repeat
:22:17. > :22:20.that this is largely in the hands of the UK Government. So far, they are
:22:21. > :22:23.treating Scotland and the Scottish Government with contempt when it
:22:24. > :22:27.comes to the Brexit process. We are supposed to be equal partners with
:22:28. > :22:32.the other nations of the UK and 62% of Scots voted to remain. Adam
:22:33. > :22:38.Tomkins, what do you make of Nicola Sturgeon's latest comments? I agree
:22:39. > :22:42.with what Roeder said earlier. She is sabre rattling. The sabre seems
:22:43. > :22:47.to be growing in sharpness and I think Scotland is sick of it. Only a
:22:48. > :22:51.minority of Scots want is the second referendum. Scottish business
:22:52. > :22:54.doesn't want to see it. It would be devastating for the Scottish economy
:22:55. > :23:04.and there is no need for it, no mandate for it. I can't be clearer
:23:05. > :23:07.than that. Your colleague was just saying that there is no need from
:23:08. > :23:10.the UK Government to say, he is a package of things we will offer at
:23:11. > :23:20.the point of Brexit to be to your advantage. There does seem to be
:23:21. > :23:26.that almost the UK Government are turning a blind year. I don't agree.
:23:27. > :23:29.The SNP have been in search of a grievance ever since the morning of
:23:30. > :23:35.the 24th of June. Verse double they said it was that we had not -- first
:23:36. > :23:40.of all they said it was outrageous that we had not made our position
:23:41. > :23:43.clear and that we are leaving the single market, but actually we said
:23:44. > :23:47.we want the fullest possible participation in the single market.
:23:48. > :23:51.The difference between the SNP position and be Government provision
:23:52. > :23:56.is nothing like as great as Richard and his colleagues want to make out.
:23:57. > :24:01.Every time there is an opportunity for SNP to dial it down a bit or
:24:02. > :24:04.ratcheted up, they ratcheted up. It started in the morning of the 24th
:24:05. > :24:11.of June and has got worse and worse and worse ever since then. Alex Cole
:24:12. > :24:14.Hamilton. Hello. I think it's clear that Nicola will have to go for a
:24:15. > :24:17.swashbuckling attempt at a second referendum because in 20 years'
:24:18. > :24:22.time, she doesn't want to look back and think, what might have been?
:24:23. > :24:25.What's interesting here is that in addition to the comments from Adam
:24:26. > :24:35.and Raider which I can beat the agree with, that there is no
:24:36. > :24:41.appetite for a second referendum, there is a change in rhetoric. They
:24:42. > :24:46.used to say that we can choose to remain in the European Union but
:24:47. > :24:51.they have stopped saying that. Why? Because there were a significant
:24:52. > :24:56.number of SNP voters who also voted leave. If she wants to win a second
:24:57. > :25:00.referendum, she needs them to rate for it as well. That is why she has
:25:01. > :25:05.dialled the rhetoric back. Does an independent referendum mean going
:25:06. > :25:11.back into the EU or is she playing both horses? At the moment, we are
:25:12. > :25:16.utterly opposed to a second referendum. We don't believe that
:25:17. > :25:22.our services are best supported by this constant wrangling. Just to be
:25:23. > :25:31.clear. Your policy is that we should in Britain have another second
:25:32. > :25:34.referendum on leaving the European Union but the Liberal Democrats
:25:35. > :25:47.don't think there should be a second Scottish referendum? Absolutely. The
:25:48. > :25:52.Brexit vote was for an exit, and on facts that have been totally
:25:53. > :25:57.discredited. Like the ?350 million for the NHS. To their credit, the
:25:58. > :26:02.SNP laid out very clearly what an independent Scotland would be. My
:26:03. > :26:07.party absolutely disagreed with that and we voted against it, as did most
:26:08. > :26:12.of the Scottish people. Now the SNP are using Brexit at the Trojan horse
:26:13. > :26:17.to have this battle once again. It looks like we are in a death spiral
:26:18. > :26:21.again. Education attainment is slipping down the league tables and
:26:22. > :26:34.policing levels are at rock bottom because this Government is asleep at
:26:35. > :26:38.the wheel. Rhoda grant, with Labour's position be to stay in the
:26:39. > :26:42.United Kingdom so that we have a constitutional agenda to have a
:26:43. > :26:47.federal UK when Labour wins the next general election, even though all
:26:48. > :26:49.the opinion polls say there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of
:26:50. > :26:56.Labour winning the next general election? People will say a week is
:26:57. > :27:00.a long time in politics. You are talking a number of years. I believe
:27:01. > :27:05.that if we speak to the people, of course people will vote for us at
:27:06. > :27:08.that election. That is what we are doing, trying to represent the views
:27:09. > :27:17.of the people and take those on board. We have to find out what the
:27:18. > :27:23.settled view of the people of Scotland and the rest of the UK is
:27:24. > :27:26.so that they can fit well together. One of the reasons people voted to
:27:27. > :27:31.leave Europe was because they saw power in the distance, out of their
:27:32. > :27:35.hands. We have to bring that back to them and leave those aspirations
:27:36. > :27:39.which are clearly held by them. To do that, we need a second
:27:40. > :27:43.Constitutional convention that listens to what people are saying.
:27:44. > :27:49.What is wrong with that? Richard Lochhead, there was much talk last
:27:50. > :27:51.year of, well, the SNP can't afford to lose another independence
:27:52. > :27:57.referendum, said the talk was that there should be 60% in favour of
:27:58. > :28:02.independence before you would risk it. Have you abandoned that?
:28:03. > :28:05.Because, after all, losing a referendum is not just a threat to
:28:06. > :28:10.Nicola Sturgeon but an existential threat to the SNP? Clearly political
:28:11. > :28:17.events will take us towards a referendum if we end up there. And
:28:18. > :28:22.clearly we would want to win that by a substantial margin, of course we
:28:23. > :28:28.would, but the key is to win is as natural -- to win the referendum and
:28:29. > :28:32.unfortunately we didn't do that in 2014. Otherwise we would be staying
:28:33. > :28:38.in the European Union. It is the Tories that are taking us out of the
:28:39. > :28:43.European Union. It is not the Tories, it was a democratic process.
:28:44. > :28:48.I will allow you to pick up after the programme. Do you think it would
:28:49. > :28:51.be worthwhile for the SNP to embark on another independence referendum
:28:52. > :28:55.if the polls are the way they are now, given the risks to the whole
:28:56. > :29:01.independent project if you lose again? I don't think you can be
:29:02. > :29:05.guided by polls again. If you remember the 2014 referendum,
:29:06. > :29:11.independence was in the low 30s and we got 45% of the vote. Therefore
:29:12. > :29:14.our starting point at the next referendum is 45% support for
:29:15. > :29:19.independence, so that is a much better place. I have to say to Adam,
:29:20. > :29:23.in the 2014 referendum, the Conservative Party told us that if
:29:24. > :29:27.we vote no to Scottish independence, that is the only way to stay in
:29:28. > :29:33.Europe. We did vote no and now we are being taken out of Europe at
:29:34. > :29:37.that match against our will. When Theresa May sted and made a speech
:29:38. > :29:41.recently and said, we are leaving the single market, it is a hard
:29:42. > :29:46.Brexit, she hadn't responded to our plea for our concerns to be taken on
:29:47. > :29:50.board. Adam, why are you say adamant that the British Government doesn't
:29:51. > :29:54.have to come and make an offer? There have got to be some kind of
:29:55. > :30:00.settlement over fishing and agriculture. Why are you so adamant
:30:01. > :30:03.that they can't just come with a big deal and other control over VAT,
:30:04. > :30:08.offered some control over immigration, that sort of thing, and
:30:09. > :30:12.say, look, we will give you all of this that weekday you to have a
:30:13. > :30:13.referendum on breaking up the United Kingdom given that we have made this
:30:14. > :30:22.offer? Nicola Sturgeon in her shrill and
:30:23. > :30:25.unnecessary speech in Edinburgh meet all kinds of unjustifiable remarks
:30:26. > :30:29.about how the Conservatives were trying to do devolution down and
:30:30. > :30:32.reverse it but this is post to politics, the opposite of what the
:30:33. > :30:37.British government had set. It is plain to all is across the clinical
:30:38. > :30:39.spectrum that Britain's exit from the EU will involve a repatriation
:30:40. > :30:46.of powers from Brussels and some will go to Hollywood. That all has
:30:47. > :30:49.to be negotiated. The British government is not being
:30:50. > :30:53.intransigent, there been vocal about the fact that there will be no
:30:54. > :30:59.really survey of power from Hollywood, no power exercised by SN
:31:00. > :31:05.by -- by MSP 's will be taken away. We have to leave it there. We have a
:31:06. > :31:08.lovely way short of you. All of you say cheese.
:31:09. > :31:10.The Justice Secretary has been defending a proposed cut
:31:11. > :31:12.of around 400 officers to Scotland's police force.
:31:13. > :31:14.Speaking at Holyrood yesterday, Michael Matheson told MSPs
:31:15. > :31:16.that the nature of crime in Scotland was changing.
:31:17. > :31:23.The minister began with his general reaction to the new plans.
:31:24. > :31:30.We welcome the publication of the draft policing 20 26 strategy sets
:31:31. > :31:34.out the steps that Scottish police authorities and police got the
:31:35. > :31:36.proposed to take in order to better meet the policing challenges of the
:31:37. > :31:42.future. The strategy is clear focus on improving the operational
:31:43. > :31:45.capacity of the police and enhancing the quality of the service at the
:31:46. > :31:49.public receives is something we very much support. Once finalised the
:31:50. > :31:53.document will play a key role in shaping the future direction of
:31:54. > :31:57.policing and I would encourage all those who have an interest in
:31:58. > :32:03.participating in the consultation to do so now that it is under way.
:32:04. > :32:06.Yesterday we learned not from the 2026 strategy but from the
:32:07. > :32:10.accompanying press conference that 400 officers will be cut from the
:32:11. > :32:17.single force by 2020 and that officers are currently backfilling a
:32:18. > :32:21.ministry to rules. This came one week after I received a letter from
:32:22. > :32:25.David peeves the deputy fossa with Bonnie Scotland denying that the
:32:26. > :32:28.policy even existed. What confidence can public have to respond to the
:32:29. > :32:31.strategy and I agree with the Cabinet Secretary that they must
:32:32. > :32:35.respond, but what confidence can the public have to respond when it does
:32:36. > :32:38.not even mention police officer numbers? And given that the word
:32:39. > :32:42.Roel is not mentioned once in the strategy despite the ruble
:32:43. > :32:48.population growing faster than the rest of Scotland, is the Cabinet
:32:49. > :32:55.Secretary agreed this is a major consideration in what guarantees can
:32:56. > :32:58.he give that these committees will not be overlooked? Let me unpack
:32:59. > :33:03.some of those points. The issue around police numbers which is again
:33:04. > :33:09.of course a draft proposal would have been put forward by the Chief
:33:10. > :33:13.Constable is on a change in the way in which they wish to have the mix
:33:14. > :33:17.of staff within police Scotland. It is right to recognise that the
:33:18. > :33:20.nature of crime which the police service and the demand on the police
:33:21. > :33:26.service over the past ten years has significantly changed. The way in
:33:27. > :33:28.which they have the demand from mental health issues from missing
:33:29. > :33:32.persons and vulnerable individuals and ageing population, the demand
:33:33. > :33:36.they now have from crimes which are taking place within a private place,
:33:37. > :33:39.most of them big drops in crimes which take place within a public
:33:40. > :33:44.place, particularly crimes such as violence and how that will be moved
:33:45. > :33:47.into the private prey -- private place with an increase in domestic
:33:48. > :33:51.violence being reported and also the way we saw an increase in cyber
:33:52. > :33:55.related crime. It is important the police have the right mix of crime
:33:56. > :34:00.-- right mix of staff and the skills to meet these types of crimes and
:34:01. > :34:03.new emerging threats effectively. On the issue of rural matters of course
:34:04. > :34:06.that is a significant issue for police got them, we would expect
:34:07. > :34:10.that to be set out in the final strategy. Of course no doubt the
:34:11. > :34:15.memorable want to make his views known to police got under his own
:34:16. > :34:18.submission to this consultation exercise and ordered the issue of
:34:19. > :34:23.rural concerns as a matter he will choose to focus on. I still have
:34:24. > :34:27.concerns that if the Chief Constable is able to tell a press conference
:34:28. > :34:30.immediately after the release of the strategy, why is not there to get
:34:31. > :34:34.the public feedback on that? And I would like to concentrate on another
:34:35. > :34:38.issue which is technology. By its own admission the police got an
:34:39. > :34:41.technology is full and outdated as there's duplication of input. These
:34:42. > :34:49.problems were supposed to have been overcome by the merger as the ice X
:34:50. > :34:55.project. Technology is a linchpin of the strategy and the single force's
:34:56. > :34:58.track record has been pure so far. We have heard that police service
:34:59. > :35:01.that I fully Scotland will invest in technology. This could serve as
:35:02. > :35:04.local communities are just want to speak to the local officer. What
:35:05. > :35:09.safeguards can we take from the strategy that the size will not be
:35:10. > :35:13.eroded? The vast majority of the IT infrastructure we haven't only
:35:14. > :35:16.Scotland has been inherited from the legacy forces but the need for IT
:35:17. > :35:20.improvement is exactly why we have provided additional reform money
:35:21. > :35:24.within the draft budget that we took through Parliament just last week in
:35:25. > :35:27.order to allow that type of IT investment to take place, that will
:35:28. > :35:29.support the police and being able to make sure they are releasing the
:35:30. > :35:33.capacity they have within your organisation at the present time.
:35:34. > :35:38.That is being taken up by the slide outdated IT systems which they have
:35:39. > :35:41.at the present time and that is the type of thing which has said of the
:35:42. > :35:44.SPSS out and also the Chief Constable set out will be key
:35:45. > :35:47.priorities and moving forward with the strategy in coming years.
:35:48. > :35:49.The Electoral Reform Society has published the first extensive
:35:50. > :35:50.analysis of the 2016 Holyrood election.
:35:51. > :35:53.It's a detailed breakdown of voting numbers and
:35:54. > :35:56.The author of the report is John Curtice, Professor
:35:57. > :35:58.of Politics at the University of Strathclyde, and
:35:59. > :36:07.The main point here is I think if you're Patrick Harvey and greens you
:36:08. > :36:13.can breathe a sigh of relief, it is not your fault SSE lost its
:36:14. > :36:17.majority. That's right, the report is primarily looking at how the
:36:18. > :36:23.holiday delightful system worked this time, a follow-up to previous
:36:24. > :36:27.endeavours. It has the fascinating question from many people, the SNP's
:36:28. > :36:32.shell of constituency vote was a percentage point up on 2011 yet in
:36:33. > :36:37.contrast to 2011 they did not get an overall majority and wanting the
:36:38. > :36:41.report try to do is explain why this happened and therefore how the
:36:42. > :36:46.system operated. One thing we can discuss -- one thing we can discount
:36:47. > :36:48.although it was somewhat in evidence in the 2015 Westminster election,
:36:49. > :36:54.there's not much evidence that unionist voters were ganging up on
:36:55. > :36:57.SNP. There's not much evidence that Labour voters who were third or
:36:58. > :37:01.fourth the constituency were switching to the Conservatives in
:37:02. > :37:08.order to be the SNP are vice versa. Very little if any of that seems
:37:09. > :37:11.that went on. What however may be important is that while the SNP's
:37:12. > :37:14.shell of the constituency vote went up its share of the list for went
:37:15. > :37:19.down by a couple of points so you might see in an, is the issue here,
:37:20. > :37:23.the Patrick Harvey point, that voters who voted for the SNP on the
:37:24. > :37:27.constituency vote switched to the Greens on the list foot perhaps in
:37:28. > :37:33.the belief and there was much debate about this, that voting for the SNP
:37:34. > :37:36.on the list was going to be a waste because they were going to do so
:37:37. > :37:42.well in the constituencies that they would not get any more list MSP 's.
:37:43. > :37:45.They did that -- did that at the end of the day cost the SNP? It
:37:46. > :37:50.certainly looks like some voters did do that, there is a strongly between
:37:51. > :37:54.how well Greens did and how big is the gap between the SNP's shell of
:37:55. > :38:00.the constituency vote and the list. Even if you assume that all of the
:38:01. > :38:05.increase in the Green vote since 2011 was the result of this tactical
:38:06. > :38:12.voting, you're still missing the SNP might have gotten one, maybe at most
:38:13. > :38:16.two more MSP 's. What clearly did for the SNP 's overall majority were
:38:17. > :38:21.some of the spectacular unexpected against the tide of victories for
:38:22. > :38:25.example, for Ruth Davidson in Edinburgh Central, for Willie Rennie
:38:26. > :38:33.in North East Fife and four Jackie Baillie hanging onto Dumbarton. That
:38:34. > :38:40.and the couple of other instances, as a result the SNP lost but because
:38:41. > :38:43.they were already doing so well in many constituencies contested in
:38:44. > :38:47.Edinburgh at five and the West of Scotland, that failure to pick up a
:38:48. > :38:51.seat was not compensated on the list but if they had managed to win all
:38:52. > :38:55.of these constituencies they would have had about 60 seats and clearly
:38:56. > :38:58.have had an overall majority so I think that benefited SNP's and
:38:59. > :39:02.mental problem is they just did not do as well in the constituency
:39:03. > :39:07.contest as the 46% of the vote they got across the country as a whole
:39:08. > :39:10.may have led you to anticipate. What is the conclusion? That the SNP
:39:11. > :39:15.could have fought a bitter campaign in these constituencies in an
:39:16. > :39:18.overall majority? Or that the majority they had before the
:39:19. > :39:23.election is an aberration and unlikely to be repeated? Certainly
:39:24. > :39:27.it is an indication about how fortunate the SNP were in 2011
:39:28. > :39:31.getting overall majority, but I think the other exit point is that
:39:32. > :39:38.actually what the SNP perhaps need to be better at is having really
:39:39. > :39:41.good intelligence as to where an opponent of theirs is fighting a
:39:42. > :39:45.really strong local campaign. Because evidently educated is quite
:39:46. > :39:48.clearly, Willie Rennie did far better in North East Fife and his
:39:49. > :39:53.party was doing on the list foot. Much the same is true of Ruth
:39:54. > :39:58.Davidson. Actually if you can pick up a very popular candidate, well
:39:59. > :40:02.likeable party leader, in a constituency, then they are likely
:40:03. > :40:07.to vote for the party and perhaps when the constituency. If the SNP
:40:08. > :40:11.are going to try and counter that in future they have to put a lot of
:40:12. > :40:14.resources into these constituencies. Otherwise you say frankly there was
:40:15. > :40:18.not much the SNP could do about it and to that extent we least the just
:40:19. > :40:23.ended up getting a little more than they deserved. Another conclusion of
:40:24. > :40:28.the Fort is that in party terms at least this is the most
:40:29. > :40:34.proportionally accurate Parliament we have had. Yes, the link between
:40:35. > :40:38.the shares of the vote, one by the parties, on the list foot which is
:40:39. > :40:44.the crucial one, and the shell of the seats in Holyrood is not
:40:45. > :40:48.perfect, it is by no means a highly proportional system in the SNP 's
:40:49. > :40:51.and Tories are still overrepresented in the Liberal Democrats and Greens,
:40:52. > :40:55.Labour are underrepresented, so it is still a system that favours
:40:56. > :40:58.larger parties but because the Greens were running at six or six
:40:59. > :41:02.and a half percent of the vote rather than 4% the last time at six
:41:03. > :41:06.and half percent you have a good chance of getting a seat in the
:41:07. > :41:12.region and the Greens managed to pick up six seats as a result.
:41:13. > :41:15.Therefore the result is more proportional but this is perhaps the
:41:16. > :41:23.hidden part of the election, fewer people voted for parties other than
:41:24. > :41:28.the five currently in Hollywood. -- Holyrood. The sense of having the PR
:41:29. > :41:32.system says that he will have the rainbow Parliament with more parties
:41:33. > :41:36.fighting in Scotland, apart from the Green party nobody but nobody has
:41:37. > :41:39.managed to break through as concurred with the position before
:41:40. > :41:45.the Scottish parliament was created. Well we have you NIcholas Jacobs Mac
:41:46. > :41:50.speech, rhetoric on independence referendums -- Nicola Sturgeon is
:41:51. > :41:54.speech, the referendum, is she boxing? Is there a way for the
:41:55. > :41:58.government? It seems to be the case that tickle a Sturgeon is
:41:59. > :42:00.increasingly wrapping up the rhetoric and suggesting that unless
:42:01. > :42:04.you get something in terms of what the UK is aiming for Brexit
:42:05. > :42:07.negotiations it does not look as though she has left yourself much
:42:08. > :42:11.room for manoeuvring for doing anything other than Colin
:42:12. > :42:16.independence referendum. That does in a sense mean the ball is put into
:42:17. > :42:21.the UK's court as to whether or not it might make them some kind of
:42:22. > :42:24.offer in terms of more powers, perhaps an emigration, that might
:42:25. > :42:28.make it possible for Scotland to have a closer relationship with the
:42:29. > :42:31.EU in certain respects are not. All the movement coming out of the UK
:42:32. > :42:38.Government is not, we have perhaps finally had from the newspaper
:42:39. > :42:40.reports that maybe the penny is dropping in Whitehall that indeed
:42:41. > :42:44.perhaps Nicola Sturgeon made want to try and hold a referendum if indeed
:42:45. > :42:49.they don't get something but at the moment the UK Government is
:42:50. > :42:53.seemingly sticking to the line that it is not doing anything
:42:54. > :42:57.particularly for Scotland. Both sides are clean poker, given that we
:42:58. > :43:01.are talking about a situation where around 53% of people say they are in
:43:02. > :43:04.favour of the union and 47 in favour of independence, Nicola Sturgeon
:43:05. > :43:09.will be taking one hell of a risk if she decides to go for a referendum
:43:10. > :43:15.but equally Theresa May will also be making one very big mistake... Why
:43:16. > :43:18.is the abyss, this junction, a distinction between many people
:43:19. > :43:24.wanting another referendum in the short-term, it supports independence
:43:25. > :43:27.at least retaining is not increasing? The excavation is not
:43:28. > :43:31.difficult, chilli everyone opposed to independence does not want a
:43:32. > :43:35.referendum, surprise surprise. Among those who are in favour of
:43:36. > :43:39.independence that is around one quarter also see I would like to be
:43:40. > :43:43.independent sometime but I am not quite sure the time is right, but
:43:44. > :43:48.the perhaps because they are not quite sure that the site would win.
:43:49. > :43:51.There is uncertainty about -- around those who are in favour of
:43:52. > :43:56.independence as to whether -- when the timing of the M should be but in
:43:57. > :43:59.terms of the principle of having another referendum is really does
:44:00. > :44:02.follow very closely in people's preferences as to whether they want
:44:03. > :44:05.Scotland to be independent in the first place. It is the division in
:44:06. > :44:09.the yes camp about the issue of timing that makes it look as though
:44:10. > :44:16.people in Scotland don't want a referendum, and in some senses it is
:44:17. > :44:19.true. Thank you. As usual you have explained everything. There will be
:44:20. > :44:21.a written exam later on. To this week's Prime
:44:22. > :44:28.Minister's questions now. Jeremy Corbyn accused the
:44:29. > :44:31.Conservatives of being the nasty party, the Labour leader urged
:44:32. > :44:36.Theresa May to scrap proposals to deny benefits to disabled people
:44:37. > :44:40.while SNP's deputy leader asked about the repatriation of
:44:41. > :44:45.agriculture and fisheries powers post-Brexit.
:44:46. > :44:49.I take a look. Mr Speaker after the last budget the then Work and
:44:50. > :44:52.Pensions Secretary resigned, accusing the government of balancing
:44:53. > :44:56.the books on the backs of the pure and vulnerable. Last week the
:44:57. > :45:00.government sneaked out of the decision to overrule a court
:45:01. > :45:07.decision to extend personal independence payments to people with
:45:08. > :45:10.severe mental health conditions. A government that found ?1 billion in
:45:11. > :45:17.inheritance tax cuts to benefit 26,000 families seems unable to find
:45:18. > :45:19.the money to support 160,000 people with debilitating mental health
:45:20. > :45:32.conditions. As a society, we are judged by how
:45:33. > :45:36.we treat the most vulnerable. The respected charity mind has said this
:45:37. > :45:42.is misguided legislation must be reversed. Can't the Prime Minister
:45:43. > :45:46.look again at the decision of the court, look again at the
:45:47. > :45:51.consequences of it and withdraw this deep decision, this nasty decision,
:45:52. > :45:55.except the court's judgment and support those going through a very
:45:56. > :46:01.difficult time in their lives. That is how we will all be judged. The
:46:02. > :46:05.way that we are dealing with disability benefits is to ensure
:46:06. > :46:08.that payments are going to those who are most vulnerable. What we are
:46:09. > :46:13.doing in relation to the personal independence payments is ensuring
:46:14. > :46:22.that the agreement of this Parliament is being put into
:46:23. > :46:24.practice. Just prior to PMQ 's today in Scottish questions, ministers
:46:25. > :46:30.were unable to answer basic questions about plans for
:46:31. > :46:37.agriculture and fisheries. These are important issues for the rural areas
:46:38. > :46:42.and they are devolved issues to the Scottish parliament. With Brexit
:46:43. > :46:46.ending the role of Brussels in this area, will all decisions for
:46:47. > :46:50.agriculture and fisheries be made at Holyrood? Yes or no? The right
:46:51. > :46:54.honourable gentleman knows very well that we are discussing with the
:46:55. > :46:58.devolved administrations the whole question of the UK framework and
:46:59. > :47:04.devolution of issues as they come back from Brussels. The overriding
:47:05. > :47:08.aim for everything that we do when we make those decisions is making
:47:09. > :47:11.sure that we don't damage the very important single market of the
:47:12. > :47:15.United Kingdom, a market which I might remind the right honourable
:47:16. > :47:18.gentleman is more important to Scotland and the European Union is.
:47:19. > :47:26.That's a very interesting answer because during the Brexit referendum
:47:27. > :47:29.people in Scotland, including those working in agriculture and
:47:30. > :47:35.fisheries, were told that farming and fisheries powers would be
:47:36. > :47:38.exercised fully by the Scottish Government and the Scottish
:47:39. > :47:44.parliament. But now it seems dodging by the by Minister's answer that
:47:45. > :47:48.that is not going to be true. Will the Prime Minister confirmed today,
:47:49. > :47:55.she has the opportunity, will she confirmed today that it is parents
:47:56. > :48:00.tension -- her intention that it will be UK ministers who will
:48:01. > :48:06.regulate across agriculture and fisheries that largely affect
:48:07. > :48:08.Scotland post Brexit. I repeat the honourable gentleman because he
:48:09. > :48:12.seems not to have understood this point that we are in the process of
:48:13. > :48:14.discussing with the devolved administrations the whole question
:48:15. > :48:19.of which of those powers which currently reside in Brussels will be
:48:20. > :48:23.returned and remain at a UK level for decision and which will be
:48:24. > :48:26.further devolved into the devolved administrations. That is a
:48:27. > :48:31.discussion which is taking place at the moment. But when he asks about
:48:32. > :48:35.the negotiations for Brexit with the European Union, it will be the UK
:48:36. > :48:41.Government that will be negotiating with the UK -- the European Union,
:48:42. > :48:44.taking account of the interests and concerns of the devolved
:48:45. > :48:49.administrations and indeed of the other areas of England.
:48:50. > :48:50.To Westminster now, where our Correspondent David
:48:51. > :49:02.We have the type of sunshine that comes in raindrops as well here but
:49:03. > :49:06.I also have MPs. Alistair Carmichael from the Liberal Democrats, Neal
:49:07. > :49:10.Gray, John Stevenson from the Conservatives as well. John
:49:11. > :49:13.Stevenson, I begin with you. The Lords are doing probably this
:49:14. > :49:18.afternoon but the comments didn't do. It looks as if they are going to
:49:19. > :49:23.amend the Brexit bill, particularly on the issue of guaranteeing legal
:49:24. > :49:27.rights for EU nationals in the UK. We will wait and see what they do
:49:28. > :49:31.decide later this afternoon. If it comes back to the House of Commons,
:49:32. > :49:35.I suspect we will reject that amendment. The view of the
:49:36. > :49:39.Government is that we want to leave the by Minister as free as possible
:49:40. > :49:43.for her negotiation. She will trigger Article 50 later this month
:49:44. > :49:47.and we must remember that negotiation involves two parties. We
:49:48. > :49:53.have our intentions of what we want to see, but we have Steve respect
:49:54. > :49:57.that the Europeans will have their own requirements as well. We will
:49:58. > :50:03.end up with the UK European perspective. If this amendment is
:50:04. > :50:09.passed, is this just the Lords having a bit of fun, knowing that
:50:10. > :50:13.you will say, no? It depends how it goes. We are presupposing they will
:50:14. > :50:22.pass this amendment which may not be the case. I have every confidence in
:50:23. > :50:31.the House of Commons will reject it. Neil Gray, the Assembly doesn't have
:50:32. > :50:34.anyone in the House of Commons, -- BS NP doesn't have anyone in the
:50:35. > :50:43.House of Commons, but you have concerns about European nationals
:50:44. > :50:46.living in the UK? Absolutely. We have all heard the stories of EU
:50:47. > :50:53.nationals living in the UK who are very much contributing to society
:50:54. > :50:59.and they are very much concerned that there ability to stay cannot be
:51:00. > :51:04.guaranteed and there is no reason for the Government not to guarantee
:51:05. > :51:08.that now. The Government could argue that we can promise this but we
:51:09. > :51:15.would need is reciprocal agreement with the British National Spring
:51:16. > :51:21.allowed to stay in the EU. Let's be clear. The Government caused this
:51:22. > :51:25.when they said that they could not guarantee the rights of EU nationals
:51:26. > :51:30.living here. It is up to them now to say, it is time to sort this out and
:51:31. > :51:33.sort it out quickly. Is this something that the UK Government
:51:34. > :51:37.should be doing unilaterally? To say, we know we are coming out of
:51:38. > :51:44.the European Union but we will give you this commission -- we will give
:51:45. > :51:48.you this guarantee now. It looks as though the Lords may vote to put
:51:49. > :51:51.this into the bill tonight. John Stevenson and indeed the Secretary
:51:52. > :51:54.of State at Scottish questions today responded to my question saying,
:51:55. > :51:59.they would reject it as well. It looks as though the Government will
:52:00. > :52:02.not go down this route. I take a completely contrary view to John
:52:03. > :52:07.Stevenson on this. If the UK Government was able to pollen --
:52:08. > :52:12.guarantee the rights of EU nationals now, it would strengthen our
:52:13. > :52:16.negotiating perspective. We would be saying, we are doing it, you need to
:52:17. > :52:21.give us a reciprocal deal. It would embarrass them to bring in the
:52:22. > :52:25.policy, in my opinion. Let's be clear, nothing will change as far as
:52:26. > :52:29.the rights of EU nationals are concerned until at least two years
:52:30. > :52:33.have passed, until at least two years after article 50 has been
:52:34. > :52:37.invoked. People's rights will not change. That is very important. But
:52:38. > :52:43.let's sort this out now and move other issues. Alistair Carmichael,
:52:44. > :52:47.it is not quite as simple as that though, is it? Because he would be
:52:48. > :52:53.having negotiations with 27 countries, not the EU as a whole.
:52:54. > :52:57.This isn't about negotiations or tactics, this is about people's
:52:58. > :53:01.lives, the lies sometimes people who have lived here for decades and have
:53:02. > :53:05.made a tremendous contribution to community is the length and breadth
:53:06. > :53:09.of this country. Let's not look at this as some sort of game the
:53:10. > :53:13.governments playing with itself, let's have a look at this as the
:53:14. > :53:18.right and decent thing to do and there is no reason not to do it. In
:53:19. > :53:22.fact, if we did, there we know from what we hear from UK nationals
:53:23. > :53:25.living in other parts of the EU that they feel this is something that
:53:26. > :53:29.would strengthen their position. So it's not just doing the right thing
:53:30. > :53:33.in this country. It's actually looking after the rights of British
:53:34. > :53:37.citizens living elsewhere in Europe. What about the argument that some
:53:38. > :53:44.are saying that actually be EU might not put this as a priority? They
:53:45. > :53:48.might want to discuss financial issues before they move onto
:53:49. > :53:51.residency concerned? That is a possibility but it is frankly
:53:52. > :53:58.downright unacceptable that people who have lived for decades, some of
:53:59. > :54:03.them doing difficult, unpleasant, menial work, some of them owning
:54:04. > :54:05.building companies that are now worth millions, it is downright
:54:06. > :54:09.unacceptable that they should now find themselves with their lives
:54:10. > :54:14.turned upside down through no fault of their own. They committed to
:54:15. > :54:20.living here in good faith. That should be recognised. Allied to
:54:21. > :54:25.that, when Brexit negotiations get underway, we heard about what
:54:26. > :54:29.happens to powers that Brussels have over agriculture and fisheries at
:54:30. > :54:36.the moment during PMQ 's. Where should that go to? Should it go to
:54:37. > :54:43.Westminster or Holyrood? Although they are devolved fully -- to the
:54:44. > :54:47.Scottish parliament, they are under a European framework, so I think
:54:48. > :54:51.anything that comes from the EU and is repatriated, aged automatically
:54:52. > :54:56.go to the devolved administration. However, we need to make sure this
:54:57. > :54:59.is done properly. The NFU are concerned about agriculture because
:55:00. > :55:02.of the amount of money spent in Scotland in proportion to the rest
:55:03. > :55:05.of the UK. Yet, we should say clearly that it should go back to
:55:06. > :55:09.the Scottish Parliament and in theory it should, but we need to get
:55:10. > :55:14.the regulatory framework right to make sure we are not damaging those
:55:15. > :55:20.sectors. The other thing I would say is this they go back to the Scottish
:55:21. > :55:33.parliament, it though they want to hand it back Brussels again. Is that
:55:34. > :55:38.true? No. What we want is to see about powers of devolved competence.
:55:39. > :55:41.We were looking for clear assurances from the Scottish Secretary and from
:55:42. > :55:46.the by Minister this afternoon about what will happen to those powers and
:55:47. > :55:50.we were given no answer to those very simple questions and they
:55:51. > :55:54.should be resolved now before we go into negotiations? John Stevenson
:55:55. > :55:59.this is something whereby we could say, we get the powers back and we
:56:00. > :56:02.can enhance devolution? It's interesting listening to the SNP.
:56:03. > :56:06.They want all the powers but they don't want to do anything with them.
:56:07. > :56:10.I think the bulk of the power should be repatriated to the devolved
:56:11. > :56:18.parliaments and that's probably the right way to approach it. But Ian is
:56:19. > :56:20.right. We have to make sure that we safeguard, for example, the
:56:21. > :56:25.agriculture industry so that Scotland is not affected badly by
:56:26. > :56:28.going back to Scotland. I think Neal had an opportunity here to answer a
:56:29. > :56:33.question that a lot of farmers and fishermen will want to hear and that
:56:34. > :56:40.is that if he gets his way, if he had his independence referendum and
:56:41. > :56:45.Scotland votes to be independent, is it in an EU deal or in some sort of
:56:46. > :56:49.Norway way? Are we going back into the European Union or not? We would
:56:50. > :56:53.have to consider what is going on now in regards to the UK
:56:54. > :56:57.Government's negotiations at the moment. A compromise document has
:56:58. > :57:03.been put forward spelling out the Scottish Parliament's position. Will
:57:04. > :57:09.they dismiss that out of hand? I think that would be dangerous. I
:57:10. > :57:15.didn't want the UK to come out of the EU. I campaigned very hard for
:57:16. > :57:20.them to stay there. It seems to me that what Neal is saying to
:57:21. > :57:23.fishermen and agricultural workers all over Scotland is that we are
:57:24. > :57:26.going to fight and fight for the Scottish parliament to have these
:57:27. > :57:30.powers, which they should, but then we are going to hand them straight
:57:31. > :57:35.back to Brussels again. I'm not sure that is unacceptable position.
:57:36. > :57:38.Gentlemen, we are going to have to leave that there. This time next
:57:39. > :57:46.week, we will no doubt be discussing the budget. Gordon, back to you in
:57:47. > :57:49.the studio. Andy Maciver is still here. You raise an interesting point
:57:50. > :57:55.that apropos of that discussion over agriculture. If there is some reason
:57:56. > :58:00.whether Scottish Government would want to retain some elements of
:58:01. > :58:03.agriculture, you reckon they may have to change the Scotland act,
:58:04. > :58:09.because it is devolved and they would have DD devolve it -- if the
:58:10. > :58:15.UK Government would want to retain some elements of agriculture. I may
:58:16. > :58:23.be talking nonsense but I think they would have do alter the Scotland
:58:24. > :58:28.act, which would be a can of worms. You can only imagine what the SNP
:58:29. > :58:32.would do with that. You mentioned subsidies but it could also be
:58:33. > :58:36.issues of national security. We want to be able to intervene in a
:58:37. > :58:43.national emergency. I think Ian Murray made a important point about
:58:44. > :58:47.whether or not it is the right place for these powers to arrest from a
:58:48. > :58:54.financial point of view. Andy, thank you very much indeed.
:58:55. > :58:55.That's all for this week, FMQs is on BBC 2 Scotland
:58:56. > :59:03.The idea of having hot running water and inside toilets -