:02:10. > :02:14.children are always known. The named person is about a universal service
:02:15. > :03:09.where every child in Scotland has a quasi social work type individual.
:03:10. > :03:10.I'm joined this afternoon by Moray Macdonald,
:03:11. > :03:13.who is a former Director of the Scottish Conservatives,
:03:14. > :03:14.and is now a PR executive with Weber Shandwick.
:03:15. > :03:23.This is a tragic case, but it is unclear whether it was a pilot area
:03:24. > :03:33.for the named person, whether Liam Fee had a maimed person or whether
:03:34. > :03:42.it was done under the other scheme. It is clear that Fife was a pilot
:03:43. > :03:46.area for the scheme and Fife an area where similar projects have been
:03:47. > :03:49.under way for some time. What is not clear is whether Liam was part of
:03:50. > :03:52.this. That I don't really understand. The authorities will
:03:53. > :03:57.know. And must know whether he was in a scheme or not. I think it is a
:03:58. > :04:01.shame that they're not just being honest about that. It is possible
:04:02. > :04:04.for some reason to do with administration they haven't found
:04:05. > :04:08.out, but I find it hard to believe the First Minister's office haven't
:04:09. > :04:13.been in touch with Fife Council to find out the situation. For obvious
:04:14. > :04:16.reasons, people might not want to know the identity of a named
:04:17. > :04:20.individual in this case, but as you say it is difficult to know why it
:04:21. > :04:33.should be a secret whether or not there was a person. You don't
:04:34. > :04:37.have to say who it was, whether it was male or female, what their
:04:38. > :04:40.profession was, so they can't be identified. But if this scheme is
:04:41. > :04:42.but this is not a good start. The person wouldn't have to be
:04:43. > :04:45.identified, but I'm sure as soon as it was made clear that Liam Fee did
:04:46. > :04:49.have a named person, if that was the case there will be a witch hunt on
:04:50. > :04:53.to find that person. And the media will want to put questions to that
:04:54. > :05:00.person about why he or she didn't do what they were expected to do under
:05:01. > :05:05.the named person's act and how come they didn't see what was going on
:05:06. > :05:10.when we saw in the media, there was clearly some neighbours who had
:05:11. > :05:17.concerns about the behaviour of the parents. And some concern about what
:05:18. > :05:21.was going on with Liam. It seems the It seems the problem wasn't people
:05:22. > :05:27.didn't know there was a problem. It is consistent from what I see from a
:05:28. > :05:32.lot of other similar cases, there is questions raised and previous child
:05:33. > :05:37.abuse cases where people have raised concern and it has not been acted
:05:38. > :05:40.on, whether it has not gone into the system properly, whether somebody
:05:41. > :05:45.has forgotten or someone didn't know what to do, or sometimes it has been
:05:46. > :05:50.suggested someone has passed it off, saying that is your view and I'm
:05:51. > :05:55.sure they're OK. One of the most difficult things with this act is I
:05:56. > :06:00.don't believe it is as intrusive as some of the campaigners against it
:06:01. > :06:03.say its, but I don't think it is a great bit of legislation. It was put
:06:04. > :06:07.through in a rush. There is a requirement for something there to
:06:08. > :06:10.try and make sure that the gaps are filled between all the authorities
:06:11. > :06:15.involved in a child's life and it is how you fill that without going to a
:06:16. > :06:18.totally intrusive nanny state. We will be back with you later.
:06:19. > :06:21.Well, the Scottish Parliament's committee structure for the coming
:06:22. > :06:23.term was revealed yesterday and after May's election
:06:24. > :06:25.saw the SNP returned as a minority administration,
:06:26. > :06:27.it would seem the party has lost its in-built majority
:06:28. > :06:37.Our Political Editor Brian Taylor joins me now.
:06:38. > :06:45.Is this on face of it, I think they're saying the SNP control eight
:06:46. > :06:54.out of 15 committees. How does that compare to last time? I think they
:06:55. > :06:59.convene eight committees. Control is a different matter. The convenor has
:07:00. > :07:04.a lot of control over the business of the committee and the importance
:07:05. > :07:09.they attach to particular items. But the SNP does not have a majority on
:07:10. > :07:20.any of those 15 committees and nor should it. It doesn't have a
:07:21. > :07:25.majority in the chamber and it is reflecting Parliamentary arithmetic.
:07:26. > :07:30.They did have a majority and it was the way in which the committees
:07:31. > :07:38.conducted their business, there was a feeling by some, though I feel it
:07:39. > :07:44.was exaggerated, that the committees were too sub servient to the
:07:45. > :07:49.Government agenda. If you're a convenor of a committee, do you have
:07:50. > :07:54.a deciding vote? You have a dividing vote in a situation where the
:07:55. > :07:58.committee is divided. If there isn't a majority, that isn't going to
:07:59. > :08:02.arise. The other lot can vote against you. The attempt is not to
:08:03. > :08:07.approach it in that way. The attempt when the Parliament was established
:08:08. > :08:13.and the way the committees work is for folk to almost set aside party
:08:14. > :08:20.allegiances. Is that possible? No. But it is possible to some extent.
:08:21. > :08:24.The idea is you build a career, some expertise within the committees,
:08:25. > :08:30.scrutinising ministers and ventilating issues of concern to
:08:31. > :08:37.people and scrutinising legislation. One of points Tricia Marwick made
:08:38. > :08:44.was one reason there are problems with the committees is they combi
:08:45. > :08:50.scrutinising committees with select committees. Do you think we will see
:08:51. > :08:54.any changes there? No, and I am not sure that is a weakness. At first it
:08:55. > :08:59.was felt that would be a strength. Because those members who were
:09:00. > :09:05.involved in wide-ranging inquiries say into the health service, would
:09:06. > :09:08.garner expertise which they could deploy in scrutinising legislation.
:09:09. > :09:12.The legislation didn't just come through it and they go through it
:09:13. > :09:17.line by line, they are meant to hold a general inquiry into the bill and
:09:18. > :09:21.for that to be effective the MSPs have got to know something in the
:09:22. > :09:24.first place. I covered the Westminster Parliamentary system for
:09:25. > :09:29.a good number of years and it has strengths as well. But when
:09:30. > :09:34.government backbenchers are placed o' an committee bill, they're told
:09:35. > :09:37.to sit quiet and do their correspondence and not join in. It
:09:38. > :09:44.is a very different approach to the one attempted at Holyrood. I do not
:09:45. > :09:50.think that MSPs will be ready yet to abandon that approach of expertise
:09:51. > :09:55.from one form of committee work moving into the other. Thanks you.
:09:56. > :10:03.What do you think of this change? Is it going to be more open? It is not
:10:04. > :10:07.an unexpected change. The SNP don't have a majority. The reason the
:10:08. > :10:12.committee system was set up the way it was, in Westminster they have
:10:13. > :10:17.revising chamber, the House of Lords. On occasion that does give
:10:18. > :10:21.the UK Government a bloody nose and delays legislation and Blakes the
:10:22. > :10:27.Government think again -- makes the Government think again. What that
:10:28. > :10:32.chamber does is it makes sure that legislation is accurate and does
:10:33. > :10:34.what it is meant to do. There have been occasions where legislation in
:10:35. > :10:38.the Scottish Parliament has gone through too quickly and we have had
:10:39. > :10:42.some clumsy laws. Because the SNP was able to get it through quickly.
:10:43. > :10:46.It was the same when Labour and the Liberal Democrats were in power
:10:47. > :10:50.remember. As a coalition in the first Scottish Parliament they had a
:10:51. > :10:53.majority and they had a majority in the committees as well. I think it
:10:54. > :10:59.will make the Parliament more interesting. Previous, in the last
:11:00. > :11:04.session the SNP got some issues through quickly that you might not
:11:05. > :11:12.have expected and this time things will be looked at in more detail it
:11:13. > :11:15.Well, in the Chamber today, MSPs will it vote on whether to impose
:11:16. > :11:18.Roseanna Cunningham, the Secretary for Environment, Climate Change
:11:19. > :11:38.This ambition underpins the land use strategy. Working with nature is
:11:39. > :11:43.also at the core of our commitment to continuing action on biodiversity
:11:44. > :11:49.protection and habitat restoration. Scotland provides the major part of
:11:50. > :11:56.UK's contribution to the EU's network of protected sites, with
:11:57. > :12:03.over 15% of our land area designated for habitats and species. We are a
:12:04. > :12:14.stronghold for a number of species and we have led the way in creating
:12:15. > :12:20.a statutory frame work to prevent nonnative invasive species. No
:12:21. > :12:24.natural asset presents a greater opportunity to fulfil our nation's
:12:25. > :12:30.potential than our seas. They're home to more than 6,000 species and
:12:31. > :12:33.also have around 25% of the potential renewable energy resource
:12:34. > :12:38.in European waters. Unlocking that resource will help us achieve our
:12:39. > :12:43.climate change target and contribute to our ambitions for growing the
:12:44. > :12:47.rural economy. This government published Scotland's first national
:12:48. > :12:52.marine plan last year. Marking an important step in the implementation
:12:53. > :12:56.of national and European legislation. It seeks to balance the
:12:57. > :13:03.competing interests of different marine industries with protecting
:13:04. > :13:07.the marine environment. We a aim to complete the marine protected
:13:08. > :13:12.network and ensure it is well managed. We must also manage and
:13:13. > :13:20.support land use and wildlife, sustainably. The uplands are areas
:13:21. > :13:25.with challenges and we have hastened the 2016 review of deer management
:13:26. > :13:32.so it will be completed by October. I can advise that I will consider
:13:33. > :13:35.fully the finding from the review of current measures to protect mild
:13:36. > :13:40.mammals, such as Foxes from being hunted with dogs. If they need to be
:13:41. > :13:48.improved, we will do that. I intend to carry out a wider review of
:13:49. > :13:54.legislation and policy to prevent and address wildlife crime. The
:13:55. > :14:00.biggest threat to our ambitions comes from Chai mate change -- Chai
:14:01. > :14:04.mate change. We have -- climate change. We have a record on which we
:14:05. > :14:11.can be proud. But we want to achieve more. I will work with colleagues to
:14:12. > :14:15.drive forward activity to meet our targets to reduce greenhouse gas
:14:16. > :14:30.emissions. We are on track to exceed our 2020 target for a 42% reduction
:14:31. > :14:35.from base line levels. The historic agreement reached at the UN climate
:14:36. > :14:39.talks last year has established certainty about the global low
:14:40. > :14:43.carbon future and presented Scotland with an opportunity to continue to
:14:44. > :14:47.lead the world. As the First Minister announced last week, we
:14:48. > :14:53.will establish a new and more testing target for 2020 of reducing
:14:54. > :14:57.actual Scottish emissions by at least 50%. And we will look for
:14:58. > :15:03.support across the chamber for the actions we will need to take to make
:15:04. > :15:08.that target. We recognise the need to empower communities to adapt to
:15:09. > :15:15.meet challenges. We will continue to support communities across Scotland
:15:16. > :15:20.to reduce their carbon emissions through our climate challenge fund.
:15:21. > :15:25.Many of the projects supported by the fund encourage the reuse of
:15:26. > :15:30.every day items and extend their life through repair and maintenance.
:15:31. > :15:36.This is at the heart of our approach to create a more circular economy to
:15:37. > :15:40.keep valuable materials in circulation for as long as possible,
:15:41. > :15:45.preventing waste and creating business and career opportunities in
:15:46. > :15:51.the food, drink, construction, energy and remanufacturing sectors.
:15:52. > :16:06.I also intend to reduce food waste by one third by 2025, the first such
:16:07. > :16:12.targeting Europe. -- in Europe. I wonder if the minister's research
:16:13. > :16:15.says that fracking is in fact safe, and if the minister goes ahead with
:16:16. > :16:20.it, how will that help with the climate change targets? I think I
:16:21. > :16:22.have built with the situation in terms of the question that Mark
:16:23. > :16:27.Rosko asked earlier. I have indicated what the government's
:16:28. > :16:30.position is man the member is aware that the minister for an engine she
:16:31. > :16:37.will be closing this debate and will pick on more of the specific issues.
:16:38. > :16:40.I want to move onto land reform now. Our new land reform act seeks to
:16:41. > :16:44.transform our relationship with the land by helping to create a fairer
:16:45. > :16:48.Scotland. As the First Minister set out last week, one of the key
:16:49. > :16:53.priorities in my portfolio will be to implement the act's key measures,
:16:54. > :16:56.including the preparation of a land rights and responsibility statement.
:16:57. > :17:02.This must be about enshrine in fairness to all parties into public
:17:03. > :17:06.policy, and my aim is to tweet for this statement to underpin future
:17:07. > :17:09.land reform. I will also establish a land commission. The aim is to
:17:10. > :17:14.appoint commissioners by the end of this year, with the land commission
:17:15. > :17:18.in operation on the 1st of April 2017. This government is committed
:17:19. > :17:22.to making land ownership more transparent and inclusive through
:17:23. > :17:24.community ownership, and one of our priorities for government is to
:17:25. > :17:31.introduce a mandatory public register of landowners' controlling
:17:32. > :17:36.interests. I can announce today that that consultation on that register
:17:37. > :17:43.will begin this summer. So that we can meet the ambitious target of 1
:17:44. > :17:46.million in community ownership by 2020, we will still a activity by
:17:47. > :17:52.increasing the Scottish land fund from ?3 million to ?10 million. Of
:17:53. > :17:57.course, wise and productive use of our land is not just a rural
:17:58. > :18:02.concern, but also an open one. Too often, it is our most deprived
:18:03. > :18:08.communities that are most blighted by vacant and derelict land and poor
:18:09. > :18:11.quality living, working, leisure and play environments. That is why we
:18:12. > :18:17.will continue to support the Scotland green network, yours
:18:18. > :18:22.largest green space project. 80% of Scotland's severely deprived areas
:18:23. > :18:26.are within the CS GM, which equipped to over 100,000 residents living in
:18:27. > :18:35.areas which require dedicated support. Having outlined some of the
:18:36. > :18:39.key priorities in government in my portfolio, it is clear that I will
:18:40. > :18:46.be busy in the coming years. But I hope other members will join me in
:18:47. > :18:48.being busy. We can all agree that Scotland's stunning natural
:18:49. > :18:54.environment is one of our most precious assets. I hope there is
:18:55. > :18:58.more we can agree on in the lifetime of this Parliament on how to use our
:18:59. > :19:03.country's natural capital wisely and productively, and how to strive for
:19:04. > :19:08.and achieve our world leading ambitions on climate change and on
:19:09. > :19:12.how to empower communities by reforming land ownership and
:19:13. > :19:17.management. I could not be more proud to be Scotland's first Cabinet
:19:18. > :19:21.Secretary for the environment, climate change and land reform.
:19:22. > :19:26.These are issues which have long been close to my heart, and indeed,
:19:27. > :19:31.I think I was making speeches in the House of Commons in the 1990s on
:19:32. > :19:35.land reform. I see David Stuart nodding. He was probably there for
:19:36. > :19:39.some of those speeches then. I promise to listen to all voices,
:19:40. > :19:44.ideas and views and to seek consensus where it can be found,
:19:45. > :19:47.which I think is in many places. But I also promised to drive forward our
:19:48. > :19:51.priorities for government and to lead on the policies I have
:19:52. > :19:55.outlined. This portfolio has a clear interest in government policy on
:19:56. > :19:57.fracking, but the minister for business, innovation and energy
:19:58. > :19:58.leads on it and will therefore addressed the issue more fully in
:19:59. > :20:01.his closing speech. Roseanna Cunningham, the Secretary
:20:02. > :20:03.for Environment, Climate Change And we'll be back to hear more
:20:04. > :20:07.from that debate a little later. Now, I'm joined from
:20:08. > :20:09.the Scottish Parliament by Joan McAlpine from the SNP,
:20:10. > :20:11.the Conservatives' Alex Johnstone, Patrick Harvie from
:20:12. > :20:17.the Scottish Greens and Alex Cole-Hamilton
:20:18. > :20:37.from the Liberal Democrats. I want to see if we can get some
:20:38. > :20:44.information. Starting on the Liam case, there is a debate. It appears
:20:45. > :20:47.that Fife was a pilot area for the named person's legislation. It seems
:20:48. > :20:53.clear for some reason whether or not this child had a named person. Have
:20:54. > :20:59.any of you got any specific information? No. And personally, I
:21:00. > :21:01.would suggest that it is irresponsible of those to be
:21:02. > :21:07.throwing around claims and counterclaims about this case. It is
:21:08. > :21:12.not the kind of issue people should be trying to score political points
:21:13. > :21:17.from. But it is not necessarily scoring political points. Given that
:21:18. > :21:21.the stated aims of the named persons legislation, if this child was part
:21:22. > :21:29.of a pilot scheme, it is not unreasonable for the public to said,
:21:30. > :21:35.what he or not? And I am sure those questions will be asked. But various
:21:36. > :21:40.claims and counterclaims have been thrown around without justification
:21:41. > :21:44.at the moment, and I think those who have done so are every bit as
:21:45. > :21:47.irresponsible as those who, during the election campaign, were throwing
:21:48. > :21:55.around phrases like State Guardian in every home or undermining human
:21:56. > :22:00.rights. Joan McAlpine, I see the point Patrick Harvie is making, but
:22:01. > :22:06.it isn't unreasonable for the public to say, we would like to know, if
:22:07. > :22:09.there was a pilot scheme here... Nobody is suggesting that a named
:22:10. > :22:16.person should be identified, for obvious reasons, but it is difficult
:22:17. > :22:22.to say why whether there was a named person should somehow be a secret.
:22:23. > :22:27.This is a matter for the review that is being conducted by the local
:22:28. > :22:32.authority. There are obviously serious questions and lots of
:22:33. > :22:37.aspects of this tragic case. I don't think we should pre-empt that
:22:38. > :22:42.inquiry. But their reader was a named person in this case, or that
:22:43. > :22:53.wasn't. It is somewhat mystifying as to why that should be a secret. The
:22:54. > :22:57.key thing is that this was referred. Concerns were raised with the local
:22:58. > :23:03.child protection agencies and clearly, they were not followed up.
:23:04. > :23:10.I am sure that concern will be part of the review. Alex Johnstone, what
:23:11. > :23:14.do you make of this? It is important that individuals are protected in
:23:15. > :23:18.these circumstances. But that is also important that we make up our
:23:19. > :23:23.minds about how we progress these matters in the full knowledge of the
:23:24. > :23:25.circumstances involved. If there is no attempt made to clarify whether
:23:26. > :23:30.there was a named person involved here or not, it is impossible to
:23:31. > :23:39.make a fair decision based on inadequate information. Monica
:23:40. > :23:42.Lennon, on that point, it is difficult again to know why it
:23:43. > :23:47.should be so mysterious. I believe the Scottish Government has already
:23:48. > :23:52.claimed that the pilot project for the named persons legislation in
:23:53. > :23:55.Fife has been a success. So how can you on the one hand said has been a
:23:56. > :24:00.success and then, when a specific case comes along, refused to say yes
:24:01. > :24:08.or no to the question, what this part of the pilot scheme? The most
:24:09. > :24:14.important thing is that Scotland is still come to terms with what
:24:15. > :24:18.happened to Liam Fee. It is a tragic case and anyone who watched the
:24:19. > :24:22.coverage in the news would have been shaken by it. People who have spoken
:24:23. > :24:26.to me about it are not calling for names and they are not talking about
:24:27. > :24:31.a named person. The Scottish Labour Party has been clear about a named
:24:32. > :24:35.person in terms of where we go next with that. There should be a review
:24:36. > :24:39.and the commission is the best person to take that forward. But
:24:40. > :24:43.anyone who wants to jump in and make political points to patient think
:24:44. > :24:48.carefully before they continue along that road. No one is making
:24:49. > :24:51.political points, we are simply asking the question, can we asked
:24:52. > :24:56.the public not know whether or not the named persons pilot programme
:24:57. > :25:02.was operative in this case? I don't see how that is scoring political
:25:03. > :25:06.points. Well, the named person has become a political football during
:25:07. > :25:13.the campaign. But we need some calm today. We need to remember that a
:25:14. > :25:17.little boy lost his life. No one is denying for a second that this is a
:25:18. > :25:24.tragic case. Of course people up and down the country are upset by this.
:25:25. > :25:27.But you can't just reply to questions about important matters of
:25:28. > :25:33.public policy by saying we should not be talking about that, we should
:25:34. > :25:38.simply feel it is a tragic case. Today isn't the data draw
:25:39. > :25:44.assumptions, to make conclusions and point the finger. No one is pointing
:25:45. > :25:53.any fingers, we are simply asking a basic question. That is reassuring
:25:54. > :25:58.to know. But the named person review is an important issue. Alex
:25:59. > :26:01.Cole-Hamilton, what do you make of this? I would echo the points the
:26:02. > :26:06.other panellists have made about what a terrible tragedy this has
:26:07. > :26:09.been. There will be questions to be answered, as there should be
:26:10. > :26:14.whenever there is a child death in these circumstances. Leaving aside
:26:15. > :26:19.the merits or demerits of the named person scheme, we need to look at a
:26:20. > :26:25.range of measures that failed in this case. The named person is just
:26:26. > :26:30.one of them, if that was part of the jigsaw. Far from being a state
:26:31. > :26:34.Guardian or social worker for every child, the named person is there to
:26:35. > :26:37.be a point of contact for parents and families. There not that make
:26:38. > :26:43.sure every child is safe all of the time. It is just part of the jigsaw
:26:44. > :26:46.puzzle. There are still questions to answer in this debate, but today is
:26:47. > :26:51.a day for coming to terms and reflecting on the tragedy of Liam
:26:52. > :26:53.Fee's case and reviewing that with the spirit of making sure it can
:26:54. > :26:55.never happen again. Now, let's cross back
:26:56. > :26:57.to the chamber, where are responding to the Government
:26:58. > :27:18.on the debate about We also need to move away from
:27:19. > :27:23.recycling rates as our only measure of success, because after all,
:27:24. > :27:28.recycling is only the third best or third worst option on the waste
:27:29. > :27:34.hierarchy. We need to encourage waste prevention and reuse. We a
:27:35. > :27:38.nationally accredited we use brand in Revolve and an increasingly
:27:39. > :27:43.professional third sector, and we need to recognise those successes.
:27:44. > :27:46.An example of sending the wrong signal is where a local authority
:27:47. > :27:52.chooses to roll out an effective waste prevention campaign, something
:27:53. > :28:01.like love food, hate waste, and as a result of doing that, the food waste
:28:02. > :28:04.arising is reduced. Therefore, the recycling rate is reduced by the
:28:05. > :28:09.local authority doing the very thing we want them to do. So we need to
:28:10. > :28:16.look at other mechanisms for analysing that. The use of a carbon
:28:17. > :28:21.metric, or the development of a circular economy metric. We also
:28:22. > :28:28.need to represent design more strongly than it is done in the
:28:29. > :28:32.making things last strategy. Politically, design sits with
:28:33. > :28:36.culture, but given that 80% of the lifetime environmental impact of a
:28:37. > :28:42.product is decided at design stage, we need to intervene then. That
:28:43. > :28:47.means aligning cultural and industry funding and making sure that while
:28:48. > :28:51.we produce the world's greatest designers, they are retained here in
:28:52. > :28:58.Scotland. One solution would be to create a design hub that links
:28:59. > :29:03.academia with industry and ensures that we are engaging in product
:29:04. > :29:09.design, business model and system design. Somewhat tangentially in
:29:10. > :29:15.terms of land reform, we must ensure that ownership is not the focus of
:29:16. > :29:20.the debate and rather, use land more sustainably for the common good.
:29:21. > :29:24.Therefore, we need to create a circular economy for Scotland. We
:29:25. > :29:28.need to ensure that we meet the needs of this generation and the
:29:29. > :29:40.next, and parliament have the pleasure of moving the amendment of
:29:41. > :29:47.the motion in my name. I now call to move amendment to 26.4. I start by
:29:48. > :29:52.congratulating the Cabinet Secretary on her new role and not the wealth
:29:53. > :29:54.of experience. Do all those in other parties with responsibilities in
:29:55. > :29:58.this portfolio, I look forward to working with them. I want to also
:29:59. > :30:00.pay tribute to Sarah Boyack, who worked for 17 years and this
:30:01. > :30:05.Parliament on sustainable development and so much more. Her
:30:06. > :30:09.understanding of and commitment to renewable energy was ahead of its
:30:10. > :30:12.time, and her towering intellect, in my view, and grasp of planning and
:30:13. > :30:17.structural issues enabled her to be a fine minister and a Shadow Cabinet
:30:18. > :30:23.secretary. I am sure we all wish her well. Climate change and all
:30:24. > :30:27.environmental issues are an incredible responsibility, and bring
:30:28. > :30:31.many opportunities. I am pleased to hear that the Cabinet Secretary is
:30:32. > :30:35.stressing that she will work with those responsible for other
:30:36. > :30:39.portfolios, transport, energy, housing and agriculture. If we are
:30:40. > :30:43.to forge action and legislation which protects future generations
:30:44. > :30:46.while creating new jobs and butter quality-of-life now. So I welcome
:30:47. > :30:52.the promotion of climate change to Cabinet level. The changes needed as
:30:53. > :30:56.we shift towards a low carbon economy are not easy to make for any
:30:57. > :31:00.political party. While I always hold the Scottish Government to account
:31:01. > :31:07.when necessary, I will work with the government where possible.
:31:08. > :31:15.We were able to work with Derek McKay the transport minister to
:31:16. > :31:20.bring about the award for a cycling scheme which we had thought up and
:31:21. > :31:26.was developed as community links plus. SNP plans to slash air
:31:27. > :31:34.passenger duty are irresponsible, taking millions out of public
:31:35. > :31:38.services. Today, with our amendment Scottish Labour asks the Government
:31:39. > :31:47.to support a ban on fracking. The science is clear to meet our climate
:31:48. > :31:55.change goals we must oppose fracking. Methane has been upgraded
:31:56. > :32:00.as a greenhouse gas for a good reason. The last thing Scotland
:32:01. > :32:05.needs as we shift to a low car upon economy is what some have called a
:32:06. > :32:10.transition fuel. Fracking is just another fossil fuel and we don't
:32:11. > :32:15.need it. Not at the moment. I want to develop this argument. This
:32:16. > :32:20.Government needs to make clear they will not issue any licences for
:32:21. > :32:23.fracking. Labour's amendment provides a cheer choice. The
:32:24. > :32:27.divisions in this chamber are clear up to a point. Labour, the Greens
:32:28. > :32:32.and Liberal Democrats are opposed to fracking. On the other side are the
:32:33. > :32:38.Tories. It is less clear when we look at the SNP. In the run up to
:32:39. > :32:41.last year's general election some SNP candidates couldn't shout loudly
:32:42. > :32:46.enough about their opposition to fracking, but the SNP government
:32:47. > :32:51.refuses to ban it. Nicola Sturgeon claims to be a fracking sceptic, but
:32:52. > :32:56.won't go further than a temporary freeze. Today, we will see once and
:32:57. > :33:01.for all which side of the debate the SNP members are really on, if they
:33:02. > :33:06.vote against our amendment, they're saying they want to keep the door
:33:07. > :33:15.open to fracking. And only a vote... Only a vote on a ban will show...
:33:16. > :33:19.Not at the moment. Only a ban will show beyond doubt that the
:33:20. > :33:24.Parliament rejects fracking in Scotland. So the SNP you have a
:33:25. > :33:28.choice between working with left centre parties like Labour to ban
:33:29. > :33:31.fracking or working with the Tories, to push through fracking in
:33:32. > :33:35.Scotland. Will the Scottish Government support our call for a
:33:36. > :33:39.ban or not? There are already many... I am not going the take
:33:40. > :33:46.interventions. I'm short of time. There are... I am sure that the new
:33:47. > :33:51.minister for energy will be highlighting the issue from the SNP
:33:52. > :33:57.perspective. There are many challenged communities on the coal
:33:58. > :34:02.belt in Scotland which face untackled opencast restoration. This
:34:03. > :34:08.is an environmental justice issue that I asked the cabinet Secretary
:34:09. > :34:16.to address. We need to develop renewable energy options to generate
:34:17. > :34:21.and supply energy. In 2014, 845,000 households were living in fuel
:34:22. > :34:26.poverty and half of all pensioners. The SNP was late with his plans for
:34:27. > :34:31.a warm home bill during the election. The cabinet Secretary does
:34:32. > :34:36.need to show how Scotland will ramp up the adoption of affordable
:34:37. > :34:42.renewable heating. I'm sure she will have much support on this. Marine
:34:43. > :34:46.renewables holds immense possibilities and transport skills
:34:47. > :34:51.are essential and I ask the cabinet to Secretary to work with the new
:34:52. > :34:57.Secretary for education on initial and in jobs skills development. More
:34:58. > :35:02.broadly, environmental regulation must be right to enable sustainable
:35:03. > :35:06.development by land, sea and air. And the implementation of the
:35:07. > :35:10.national marine plan and the marine protected areas will be fundamental
:35:11. > :35:18.to our seas and those who depend on them now and in the future. And in
:35:19. > :35:30.this context I want to pay respect to Richard Lochhead. Biodiversity
:35:31. > :35:35.must be addressed. Support for the behaviour change will be essential.
:35:36. > :35:40.Research budgets must be protected for flooding, as discussed by the
:35:41. > :35:44.cabinet Secretary and maintaining a robust interface and further
:35:45. > :35:52.developing partnerships with NGOs and businesses will be vital. I want
:35:53. > :35:57.to recognise the contribution of Aileen McLeod, now that we have the
:35:58. > :36:01.new land reform act, the development of land rights statement, the role
:36:02. > :36:05.of commission, and the regulations themselves will be fundamental to
:36:06. > :36:14.progress and Scottish Labour stands ready to contribute to this. I move
:36:15. > :36:28.the amendment in my name. Thank you. I call Andy Whiteman to speak to his
:36:29. > :36:32.amendment. Thank you. Can I congratulate Roseanna Cunningham on
:36:33. > :36:37.her appointment. It is a great honour to be elected to this and I
:36:38. > :36:41.want to thank the staff who made us new members welcome. Irwant to thank
:36:42. > :36:46.my colleague in the Green Party who have given me incredible support
:36:47. > :36:52.over the years and my family and the voters of Lothian for putting their
:36:53. > :36:57.trust in Alison Johnson and myself. I was particularly grateful to a
:36:58. > :37:02.veteran of this place who gave me the following pieces of advice.
:37:03. > :37:09.First, be yourself and stick to your principles. Second, expect surprises
:37:10. > :37:14.every day. That certainly is true for example after decision time last
:37:15. > :37:24.Thursday, I returned to my office to find a parcel wrapped on my desk and
:37:25. > :37:30.I discovered a green knitted woolly hat, from former MSP, Mary Scanlon,
:37:31. > :37:37.which will be my first registration of gifts. I know I have many
:37:38. > :37:41.admirers on Tory benches, particularly Mary's successors on
:37:42. > :37:46.the Highland list. You don't need to wait until you retire to give me
:37:47. > :37:51.more gifts. The third piece of evidence is to remember why you're
:37:52. > :37:56.here and who put you here. All good advice. This Parliament has huge
:37:57. > :38:00.potential to transform the lives of people in Scotland. And in relation
:38:01. > :38:05.to the challenges of climate change, the solutions lie in areas such as
:38:06. > :38:13.energy demand reduction in housing and transport. Act of the travel,
:38:14. > :38:15.urban planning and a programme of reforestation and ecological
:38:16. > :38:21.restoration. Transport is the sector that has seen least progress in
:38:22. > :38:28.terms of reducing carbon emissions and the focus on the use of private
:38:29. > :38:33.car privileges men and higher earners. The new cabinet Secretary
:38:34. > :38:38.will be faced with formidable vested interests in addressing the
:38:39. > :38:42.questions she will be put. She will need all her experience to persuade
:38:43. > :38:47.her cabinet colleagues they must work together to achieve such
:38:48. > :38:52.ambition. She has some critical decisions to take, on topics such as
:38:53. > :39:02.wildlife crime and the future of beavers. That brings me to land
:39:03. > :39:11.reform. I first met Roseanna Cunningham in the nineties. We were
:39:12. > :39:16.part of a group campaigning... STUDIO: Now back to Brian Taylor.
:39:17. > :39:19.Apparently the SNP are going to abstain in this and say we have got
:39:20. > :39:25.a review, we will make up our minds when we get the review thank you.
:39:26. > :39:31.Yeah. I think the position is they will abstain when the vote is taken
:39:32. > :39:37.later. There is an amendment down by Labour and Greens on fracking. The
:39:38. > :39:44.debate is a generic debate on the environment. Given the Parliamentary
:39:45. > :39:49.arithmetic, it would seem the SNP would either lost the vote or would
:39:50. > :39:53.have to vote with the Conservatives to defeat the Labour or Green
:39:54. > :39:56.amendment. I understand they have decided to abstain that they will
:39:57. > :39:59.take the Parliamentary hit such as it, regardless of whether it is the
:40:00. > :40:05.Labour amendment or the Green amendment and say that Parliament
:40:06. > :40:13.has spoken on an interim basis. The ministers will argue the review
:40:14. > :40:15.continues, and it is only when the scientific review is finished that
:40:16. > :40:18.ministers will set out their position and may well at that point
:40:19. > :40:24.require to come back to Parliament for a further vote. Are you
:40:25. > :40:28.suggesting that they have decided to abstain because they don't want to
:40:29. > :40:33.be seen to be voting with the Tories. I think that is one element.
:40:34. > :40:38.The other element is they will argue, the mood of the Parliamentary
:40:39. > :40:43.group was, perhaps as guided by ministers, that abstention is in
:40:44. > :40:48.line with what they're doing with fracking. They're abstaining from
:40:49. > :40:57.taking a decision until the scientific review is complete. A
:40:58. > :41:00.moratorium is not a ban, it is a pause. They would say what they're
:41:01. > :41:05.doing, are they proud of it? The position is that a Government wants
:41:06. > :41:07.to find it in? No, but hey, welcome to minority Government and not
:41:08. > :41:11.having a majority in the Parliament. So I think they would say they are
:41:12. > :41:18.abstaining in line with the Government position. Do I think they
:41:19. > :41:22.will ban fracking? Yes I do. But the scientific evidence, that industrial
:41:23. > :41:25.evidence, the economic evidence may point perhaps to some degree towards
:41:26. > :41:29.fracking. The political difficulty for the SNP is in going against both
:41:30. > :41:36.the Labour and the Greens and the Laboureds. Laboureds. This could be
:41:37. > :41:40.-- Liberal Democrats. It notice just on this particular thing, there are
:41:41. > :41:45.a few issues where actually the Tories are closer to the SNP than
:41:46. > :41:48.any of the other parties. If the SNP don't want to vote with the Tories
:41:49. > :41:54.that, could cause problems. Certainly with tax. Their income tax
:41:55. > :41:59.position is a lot closer to the SNP's than Labour and the Liberal
:42:00. > :42:06.Democrats with a penny on the standard rate or the Greens with an
:42:07. > :42:13.unheaval with the stm. System. Will they require a Tory vote. Let's wait
:42:14. > :42:20.and see. They may be able to prise the Greens away. But now I don't
:42:21. > :42:23.think they they want to be seen voting with the Conservatives. Look
:42:24. > :42:28.at the speeches Nicola Sturgeon has made, sthe has tried to argue that
:42:29. > :42:33.in terms of ideology she is remote from the Conservatives and trying to
:42:34. > :42:37.squeeze them out. That may not be possible on every occasion, but
:42:38. > :42:40.they're trying to side step it. To stay away from that Conservative
:42:41. > :42:48.allegiance. Thank you very much for that. What do you make of this? This
:42:49. > :42:51.could be, I mean as Brian said, there is a particular situation with
:42:52. > :42:55.fracking, but there could be a general problem for the SNP they
:42:56. > :43:01.might need the Tories to get some of their measures through. But having
:43:02. > :43:04.accused Labour of being toxic for campaigning with the Tories in the
:43:05. > :43:11.referendum, it is a problem for them? It is and it isn't. Debates
:43:12. > :43:16.happen like this every week and lots of them don't mean anything. They
:43:17. > :43:19.don't change the law. They don't even influence policies. It is
:43:20. > :43:23.Parliament saying we think the environment is great, we think
:43:24. > :43:27.whatever the policy is you're looking at it great or bad. Losing
:43:28. > :43:31.today's vote doesn't impact on anything. There is nothing going to
:43:32. > :43:36.change. But I think Brian is right... It is a credible position
:43:37. > :43:41.for the SNP to take, to say we have commissioned an expert review on
:43:42. > :43:46.fracking, if you don't mind, we will wait until that review reports
:43:47. > :43:50.before we commit ourselves. And they have to say that, because there is
:43:51. > :43:54.no point in setting up a report to look at it and not waiting for it to
:43:55. > :44:01.come out. The SNP other difficulty is they are split on it. There are
:44:02. > :44:06.some I would suggest not many SNP MSPs in favour of fracking. Some are
:44:07. > :44:12.against. By going for an about tension, rather than voting to keep
:44:13. > :44:15.the moratorium in place, they will get their members behind themment
:44:16. > :44:22.for Labour it is a strange position. They're trying to pabg take a
:44:23. > :44:28.populist position. They're voting against jobs. Fracking would create
:44:29. > :44:33.jobs in the central belt at a time when jobs are going in the energy
:44:34. > :44:37.fields. Do you know, do the trade unions have strong feelings about
:44:38. > :44:40.this? That is what I'm surprised about. I'm surprised trade unions
:44:41. > :44:47.haven't been speaking louder about this. Just last week Ineos announced
:44:48. > :44:51.that 100% of his research people who have been based up here are moving
:44:52. > :44:58.down south. Because fracking has been approved in England. So some of
:44:59. > :45:03.that skims have already gone. I think it will be difficult for them
:45:04. > :45:09.to be pulled back up. Brian is probably correct and the Parliament
:45:10. > :45:14.will vote against fracking. Would that concern you personally, critics
:45:15. > :45:19.say it is not just fracking there are a series of issues the do with
:45:20. > :45:26.technology or the development of technology where Scotland is saying
:45:27. > :45:34.no to GM crops, no to nuclear power, no to fracking. And some of these
:45:35. > :45:39.decisions, GM crops taking without scientific advice. People are saying
:45:40. > :45:45.is this the image... Some people say that is the image, we want to be
:45:46. > :45:50.seen as a green country. But others say, well hang on, it looks as if we
:45:51. > :45:56.are turning our face against much of modern industry. It does concern me.
:45:57. > :46:00.Because it feels on some issues like GM and fracking that the government
:46:01. > :46:07.or large parts of Parliament are take popular positions on it and it
:46:08. > :46:12.is not based on science. Fracking if the report comes out and saying
:46:13. > :46:16.fracking is safe and they vote to ban it, well why bother having a
:46:17. > :46:21.report when it says it is safe and they go against the advice. It is
:46:22. > :46:26.concerning. I think it is a worry in terms of the economy. The reality is
:46:27. > :46:32.we need to have, to create energy in Scotland and if oil and gas is
:46:33. > :46:34.running out, and fracking is cheaper, then surely we should be
:46:35. > :46:44.looking to that. In America, many of the fracking
:46:45. > :46:48.operations have stopped because the oil price is so low that it isn't
:46:49. > :46:51.worth taking the stuff out of the ground. And that is part of the
:46:52. > :46:56.problem of the global energy crisis in terms of the price of oil being
:46:57. > :46:58.so cheap that it is just as cheap to use oil rather than paying to frack
:46:59. > :47:00.it. There's three weeks to go
:47:01. > :47:03.until the EU referendum and today Leave campaigners say Britain should
:47:04. > :47:05.adopt a points-based immigration system, if people vote
:47:06. > :47:07.to quit the European Union. Meanwhile, the TUC, which supports
:47:08. > :47:11.the Remain campaign, is warning that a Leave vote
:47:12. > :47:13.would see workers worse Our Westminster correspondent
:47:14. > :47:30.David Porter joins us David, explain this latest fracas?
:47:31. > :47:34.It is the latest of many. Immigration has taken centre stage
:47:35. > :47:38.today. The argument being put forward by the Leave campaign is
:47:39. > :47:41.that in their words, it would be fairer and more humane to have a
:47:42. > :47:48.system whereby people get points. So if someone has an occupation that is
:47:49. > :47:52.required, they would get more points if they had good English and good
:47:53. > :47:57.health. They would stand a better chance of becoming an immigrant to
:47:58. > :48:03.the UK. At the moment, anyone in the European Union has freedom of travel
:48:04. > :48:11.and can move to the UK. It is an issue which is making the political
:48:12. > :48:16.weather here at Westminster, as is the argument from the TUC, said that
:48:17. > :48:20.on average, workers could be ?38 a week worse off if Britain was to
:48:21. > :48:27.leave the EU. Joining me now is the SNP MP Stephen Gethin is, who is
:48:28. > :48:31.very much in the Remain camp. There was some logic in an idea that if
:48:32. > :48:35.you want to bring the right skilled people into this country, you do it
:48:36. > :48:40.through a points -based system, a bit like what happens in Australia?
:48:41. > :48:43.At the moment, there is a lot of logic in having free movement. That
:48:44. > :48:49.benefits our economy and individuals. I benefited from free
:48:50. > :48:54.movement of persons. I wants to see young people benefit from that in
:48:55. > :48:59.the future. Today, we have promises on the table. Not even promises,
:49:00. > :49:09.they are proposals. It is a bit off the back of a fag packet and we need
:49:10. > :49:12.to see more. For instance, Scotland would like more immigration than
:49:13. > :49:18.other parts of the UK. This could be a way of achieving it. In Scotland,
:49:19. > :49:24.we need emigration. Emigration is a huge public. We need more
:49:25. > :49:28.immigration. It is good for jobs. Immigration is a good thing.
:49:29. > :49:32.Fundamentally, you are talking about the European Union. If you leave the
:49:33. > :49:36.European Union, you lose freedom of movement. That affects the 1.5
:49:37. > :49:39.million UK citizens who live in other parts of the European Union,
:49:40. > :49:44.and also affects the dozens contributing to our economy here. If
:49:45. > :49:47.you get rid of free movement, there would be a black hole in the
:49:48. > :49:51.Chancellor's budget, given that EU migrants or expats make
:49:52. > :49:56.substantially more of a contribution that they take away from services.
:49:57. > :50:00.We ordered by Bernadette King, the Conservative MP. Some of you may
:50:01. > :50:06.have seen him arriving on his bike -- Bernard Jenkin. You are from the
:50:07. > :50:10.Leave side. Why is a points -based system better than the one we have
:50:11. > :50:16.at the moment? At the moment, we have a points -based system for the
:50:17. > :50:20.rest of the world, but not the EU. One of the factors that have kept
:50:21. > :50:24.wages low, particularly amongst the low paid, the bottom 20%, is that
:50:25. > :50:28.there is an unlimited supply of cheap labour coming in from low-wage
:50:29. > :50:31.economies in the European Union. And there is nothing the government can
:50:32. > :50:35.do about that. The Prime Minister has said people should not come here
:50:36. > :50:40.unless they have a job, but he can't do anything about that while we are
:50:41. > :50:42.in the European Union. It is not about ending immigration, it is
:50:43. > :50:46.about restoring the choice of British voters and the British
:50:47. > :50:49.government as to what kind of immigration policy we should have.
:50:50. > :50:55.You say you want a more targeted approach, but if we have a points
:50:56. > :50:59.-based system in the UK, I understand that that means we can be
:51:00. > :51:02.part of the single market. Presumably, other countries in the
:51:03. > :51:07.European Union would say, we will apply the same rules to British
:51:08. > :51:11.workers. And what would that matter? We have tariff free trade between
:51:12. > :51:15.the EU and UK now. Who is advocating that we should have tariffs on our
:51:16. > :51:24.trade between the EU and UK after we leave? Nobody. You can be a
:51:25. > :51:30.self-governing country outside the EU and you can trade with the EU are
:51:31. > :51:39.like the United States does, like Singapore does, like Switzerland
:51:40. > :51:43.does. It is just a question of returning our country to be a
:51:44. > :51:49.normal, self-governing country. I am at a loss to understand why the SNP
:51:50. > :51:53.argues that we need a stronger voice. They have a far stronger
:51:54. > :51:56.voice as part of UK at Western star. They would get lost as a tiny
:51:57. > :52:02.country in the European Union, if they could get in. This
:52:03. > :52:09.fundamentally misrepresents what the EU is. The EU is made up of
:52:10. > :52:12.independent member states who make their decisions based on being
:52:13. > :52:15.independent member states. They retain that sovereignty and they
:52:16. > :52:20.share it where they choose. At the moment, Scotland is lumbered with a
:52:21. > :52:22.Tory government on 15% of the vote, the worst election result in
:52:23. > :52:27.Scotland for 150 years of the last general election, and the decisions
:52:28. > :52:33.you make have an impact on Scotland. Take fisheries. It was a Tory
:52:34. > :52:38.government that said our fishery policy was expendable, not the
:52:39. > :52:43.European Union. So the fault lies with the member state, not the
:52:44. > :52:47.European Union. But the point about democracy is that you should be able
:52:48. > :52:50.to change your mind. That is what the British government cannot do in
:52:51. > :52:54.the European Union. You say we have our sovereignty. We have things
:52:55. > :52:58.decided by majority voting and we get outvoted. All the votes that
:52:59. > :53:02.have taken place since 2010, we have lost each of them and we get
:53:03. > :53:08.overruled by the European Court of Justice. We don't have a Supreme
:53:09. > :53:10.Court in our own country. Mr Jenkins, I asked the House of
:53:11. > :53:13.Commons Library for some research about how many times the UK
:53:14. > :53:20.Government had voted against a final council decision. Since your
:53:21. > :53:28.government had a majority, it has not done so once. Because they give
:53:29. > :53:32.in in secret. Well, that is your government. There are 20 member
:53:33. > :53:35.states with democratically elected governments, a commissioner who is
:53:36. > :53:40.appointed in much the same way as you get other ministers appointed,
:53:41. > :53:43.and we get all this hokum about democracy from a party that once the
:53:44. > :53:50.House of Lords! It is extraordinary. How can you be in favour of an
:53:51. > :53:57.independent Scotland within the -- outside the UK, but you are happy to
:53:58. > :54:01.submit to a European court in Europe? An independent Scotland
:54:02. > :54:06.would make Scottish priorities, like renewable energy, which has been
:54:07. > :54:09.undermined by Westminster. We have good policies from Europe, like
:54:10. > :54:15.workers' writes. So we would make our priorities. You also talk about
:54:16. > :54:18.the European Court of Justice. The European Court of Justice is there
:54:19. > :54:25.when you have rules and regulations and you have a dispute, just like
:54:26. > :54:29.any other court. There are two Scottish justice is out of 15 in the
:54:30. > :54:39.supreme court. Do you think that is fair? Don't be ridiculous. The whole
:54:40. > :54:42.of the United Kingdom has only one judge on the European court.
:54:43. > :54:47.Scotland would be better off as an independent country within the
:54:48. > :54:51.European Union and not being dictated to. This is fantasy
:54:52. > :54:54.constitutional theory. You think the House of Lords is more democratic
:54:55. > :55:00.than the EU? That has nothing to do with it. Is the House of Lords more
:55:01. > :55:06.democratic than the European Union? I think I ought to chip in. We are
:55:07. > :55:09.getting short for time. It has been fantastic to hear you interacting
:55:10. > :55:14.with each other. A brief answer from each of you. How close is this going
:55:15. > :55:21.to be in three weeks' time, and are you still confident Remain will win?
:55:22. > :55:25.It is close already. We want everybody to get out there and vote
:55:26. > :55:31.for Remain. It is so important for all of us. The SNP is campaigning
:55:32. > :55:34.hard, but we could do with Labour and the Liberal Democrats getting
:55:35. > :55:40.their finger out. How close is going be, Bernard? I don't think the polls
:55:41. > :55:44.are telling us what is going on. I don't think they themselves know
:55:45. > :55:48.what is going on. All I know is that every meeting and debate I attend,
:55:49. > :55:53.there are people coming around to Leave. And while I haven't been in
:55:54. > :55:58.Scotland, I am told the same thing is happening there. We have to leave
:55:59. > :56:03.it there. It will be very interesting to reconvene for this
:56:04. > :56:04.conversation before we vote and perhaps after. Thank you for joining
:56:05. > :56:05.me. Let's get some final thoughts
:56:06. > :56:14.from Moray Macdonald. The most important thing that came
:56:15. > :56:18.out of that was that Bernard Jenkins jumped off a bike and immediately
:56:19. > :56:22.did an interview! I don't know if Patrick Harvie is still watching,
:56:23. > :56:26.but he has something to live up to. It was impressive, he did not seem
:56:27. > :56:33.to be out of breath too much. You are genuinely undecided. I don't
:56:34. > :56:40.think that is rare. Opinion polls suggest there are a lot of
:56:41. > :56:44.undecided, maybe up to 25%. And I am not surprised by that. When you look
:56:45. > :56:48.at the hyperbole we have seen from the Remain and the Leave campaign
:56:49. > :56:52.over the last two weeks, the titular leading open when purdah kicked in
:56:53. > :56:57.and the UK Government could no longer put up documents on policies
:56:58. > :57:02.relating to the EU, each day, the Treasury was pumping out evidence
:57:03. > :57:06.about why we must remain in the EU. Speaking to my own friends and
:57:07. > :57:13.family, people just seem fed up about it. Some of the facts and
:57:14. > :57:17.figures being thrown around by both sides seemed ridiculous. A lot of
:57:18. > :57:21.people were going, I am just not convinced it will make that much
:57:22. > :57:28.difference if we are in or out in terms of the impact on individuals.
:57:29. > :57:39.What would each side have to do between now and the vote to convince
:57:40. > :57:43.you one way or the other? My biggest concern about the EU is the lack of
:57:44. > :57:47.democracy in it. I am not convinced that anyone can do anything to tell
:57:48. > :57:52.me that that is going to change. But my biggest fear is on the economics
:57:53. > :57:56.of it. I don't think the world will fall apart if we wrote to go out,
:57:57. > :58:01.but if we stay in, the economy will probably be slightly better off and
:58:02. > :58:05.we as a country will go on as we are. And even if we do come out and
:58:06. > :58:09.the economy plummets from well, it will probably come back to normal
:58:10. > :58:14.within a while. If we were to leave, the thing I would be most concerned
:58:15. > :58:19.about would be the right of access across the EU, which I find an
:58:20. > :58:28.attractive proposition. My company has offices across Europe. Employees
:58:29. > :58:31.of hours would be affected. So what are you suggesting? You would like
:58:32. > :58:36.less of the grand rhetoric and the wild eyed accusations ma and a bit
:58:37. > :58:41.more hard facts that would enable you to decide one way or the other?
:58:42. > :58:45.The wild rhetoric is the biggest problem. The biggest issue is that
:58:46. > :58:48.David Cameron did not get a good deal at the start of this. If he
:58:49. > :58:50.had, Remain would have been firmly in the lead.
:58:51. > :58:54.You can keep up with the latest debates from Holyrood
:58:55. > :58:59.I'll be back this weekend on BBC One with Sunday Politics.