0:00:22 > 0:00:23On today's programme - sexual harassment and
0:00:23 > 0:00:24exploitation in politics.
0:00:24 > 0:00:32We'll be hearing demands for action from Holyrood.
0:00:32 > 0:00:37Trade unions is required and any such review should consider the
0:00:37 > 0:00:40procedures used to report and record incidents and the culture of
0:00:40 > 0:00:44Parliament more generally, given for example the running of Parliament is
0:00:44 > 0:00:47currently overseen by all male groups of MSPs.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49currently overseen by all male groups of MSPs.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51And in Westminster today, a direct appeal to Prime
0:00:51 > 0:00:54Minister Theresa May.
0:00:54 > 0:01:00Three years ago, I brought evidence to her, in this House, that whips
0:01:00 > 0:01:04has used information about sexual abuse, to demand loyalty from MPs.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08On three occasions, I asked her to act and on three occasion, she did
0:01:08 > 0:01:16not. As the scandal continues to grip
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Westminster I will be live in London speaking to our Scottish MPs.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20speaking to our Scottish MPs.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Good afternoon, and a warm autumnal welcome to the show.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Joining me throughout today's programme is a former director
0:01:25 > 0:01:27of the Scottish Conservative Party and now PR executive with
0:01:36 > 0:01:43Moray, there is something obviously this sexual harassment affair, is
0:01:43 > 0:01:47now spread, it started with Harvey Weinstein, British Parliament,
0:01:47 > 0:01:53Scottish Parliament, no doubt other businesses, one puzzle is, we were
0:01:53 > 0:01:57all supposed to be aware of these issue for about the past 0 year, is
0:01:57 > 0:02:02it that do you think, that no-one is taking this seriously until now? And
0:02:02 > 0:02:09why?-- 30 years. I think people have taken it seriously it has been
0:02:09 > 0:02:13different in different parts of the country. The corporate world has got
0:02:13 > 0:02:22its act together in this regard and most business, behave in exceedingly
0:02:22 > 0:02:26professional manners and are way set up for people to complain that are
0:02:26 > 0:02:32seen as easy to do and without any prejudice against them. I think in
0:02:32 > 0:02:35institutions like Parliament, for example, where the reporting lines
0:02:35 > 0:02:40are different. You don't have a hierarchy, researches report direct
0:02:40 > 0:02:45to MPs an are employed direct by MPs rather than being employed by the
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Parliamentary estate for example. There are strange set ups in there.
0:02:48 > 0:02:54In that environment...More than strange, I mean the specific
0:02:54 > 0:03:00allegation that Lisa Nandy is making, is that the whips, this case
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Conservative whips were although it is not necessarily, it, but they use
0:03:05 > 0:03:10in stuff they know who has been accused of what sexual misdemeanors
0:03:10 > 0:03:16and they can say if someone is thinking of rebel, rebel if you
0:03:16 > 0:03:19like, we will leak this.We have known for a long time whips have
0:03:19 > 0:03:25operated in that way. There was a programme 195 where one of the whips
0:03:25 > 0:03:29described how they went about doing their work and used nuggets of
0:03:29 > 0:03:33information on people to control them. I would like to think it
0:03:33 > 0:03:38doesn't work quite so much much in that way, in terms of harassment or
0:03:38 > 0:03:41illegal behaviour but whips use that pressure against people. The parties
0:03:41 > 0:03:45have to look at, look at themselves ops that front. I think one of the
0:03:45 > 0:03:50more interesting things that is coming out. The gate has been opened
0:03:50 > 0:03:53and people are feeling more free to tell about what has happened to
0:03:53 > 0:03:57them. That can only be a good thing, one of the things that William Hague
0:03:57 > 0:04:01said today that was very true, I thought, is social media, although
0:04:01 > 0:04:06it may, many of us may hate it for many reasons in terms of it gives
0:04:06 > 0:04:12access to anyone to say what they want. What it is is allowing people
0:04:12 > 0:04:16to be more powerful and broadcast that. The point William Hague was
0:04:16 > 0:04:20making, is that is a much more powerful thing that for example any
0:04:20 > 0:04:25procedural or legal changes that are made.Sure, but you are saying you
0:04:25 > 0:04:28hope, you don't know that the whips don't use this kind of thing, they
0:04:28 > 0:04:33certainly were then, weren't they, I can't see any obvious reason why
0:04:33 > 0:04:37things would have changed?Think people's attitudes have changed over
0:04:37 > 0:04:41the last 20 year, particularly over the last five to ten year, I do
0:04:41 > 0:04:44believe that is the case, I think it is less likely for that type of
0:04:44 > 0:04:49behaviour to happen in a whip's or any other type of office.The
0:04:49 > 0:04:52allegation isn't the whips are doing it, the allegation is they...Use
0:04:52 > 0:04:56the information.It might be sexual harassment, it might be the fact
0:04:56 > 0:05:01that you have had an affair and you are married and they say well, all
0:05:01 > 0:05:04right, all right mate, if you vote against us we will tell your husband
0:05:04 > 0:05:10or your wife.Yes, who knows if that behaviour goes on. I would like to
0:05:10 > 0:05:15think it doesn't, but clearly, there is accusations out there that it is.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16Now.
0:05:16 > 0:05:17Now.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19Scotland's political parties have endorsed a zero tolerance approach
0:05:19 > 0:05:21to sexual harassment in the Scottish Parliament
0:05:21 > 0:05:22and wider society.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24It follows a meeting of party leaders with
0:05:24 > 0:05:26Holyrood's Presiding Officer, Ken McIntosh yesterday.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28Earlier, the Deputy First Minister had told MSPs that men's behaviour
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and conduct must change, if the sexual harassment and abuse
0:05:31 > 0:05:37of women is to end.
0:05:37 > 0:05:43I would like to explain first of all why Iam answering this question when
0:05:43 > 0:05:48it would normally fall to the equalities secretary. It is the
0:05:48 > 0:05:51conduct and behaviour men that needs to change if we are the to end the
0:05:51 > 0:05:55sexual harassment and abuse of women, whether that be in their
0:05:55 > 0:05:59workplace or social life or home, therefore, as the most senior male
0:05:59 > 0:06:02minister in the Scottish Government, I wanted to answer this question and
0:06:02 > 0:06:08to make sure, that it is up to men to make these changes, and men must
0:06:08 > 0:06:11examine their own behaviour. Sexual haars wherement or abuse in the
0:06:11 > 0:06:15world place or anywhere else is completely unacceptable and must
0:06:15 > 0:06:19stop, just as the underlying attitudes and inequalities that
0:06:19 > 0:06:24perpetuate it must also stop. What is more, our own institution is not
0:06:24 > 0:06:34immune from this issue, and I want to take this to encourage anyone who
0:06:34 > 0:06:40has experienced Parasment to report it. Yesterday we sought to work I a
0:06:40 > 0:06:44cross all party to make Parliament as a workplace, a place where there
0:06:44 > 0:06:48is zero tolerance of such behaviour, I I therefore welcome the meeting
0:06:48 > 0:06:52with party leaders taking place later today to discuss what more we
0:06:52 > 0:06:55can do to tackle these behaviours and attitudes within this
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Parliament. No-one, staff or member of the Scottish Parliament, woman or
0:06:59 > 0:07:04man, should have to ever put up with haars wherement or abuse, I am sure
0:07:04 > 0:07:08this Parliament and all parties are use nitted round the importance of
0:07:08 > 0:07:11making sexual harassment a thing of the past, and that we will work
0:07:11 > 0:07:16together to achieve that.I thank him for his reply and welcome the
0:07:16 > 0:07:21tone and the stance that has been taken. Can ask him what further
0:07:21 > 0:07:25discussions this will be had across all of the political parties, at
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Holyrood to ensure there are vigorous mesh yeses in place,
0:07:29 > 0:07:33consistent across Scottish politics to ensure a zero tolerance approach
0:07:33 > 0:07:38in relation to such behaviour? Presiding officer, this is an issue
0:07:38 > 0:07:42in which all parties will have a very close and strong interest and
0:07:42 > 0:07:46it is right that across the chamber we unite to send a strong message
0:07:46 > 0:07:52that there is no place in Scottish politics or this Parliament or in
0:07:52 > 0:07:56our constituency office for any form of harassment or abuse, there has to
0:07:56 > 0:08:02be a change of culture, so that it is not the onus is not on
0:08:02 > 0:08:07individuals to be raising complaints or expressing their concernings but
0:08:07 > 0:08:12individuals are not exposed to the circumstances that may give rise to
0:08:12 > 0:08:17those complaint.Can I ask how the Government will support women and
0:08:17 > 0:08:22men and how do we get organisations to take sexual haars wherement
0:08:22 > 0:08:25seriously including local authorities?There must be a
0:08:25 > 0:08:29combination between good procedures that are in place, which enable
0:08:29 > 0:08:33individuals to feel confident about reporting any behaviour about which
0:08:33 > 0:08:37they are concerned is, but equally there must be a relentless approach
0:08:37 > 0:08:43taken forward by all of us to make sure that this behaviour is not
0:08:43 > 0:08:46behaviour that take place within our society.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50Unless we understand how difficult it is for women to come forward with
0:08:50 > 0:08:56complaint, for fear they will not be believed or supported and recognises
0:08:56 > 0:09:03this is a cultural problem, we will never fully resolve this. Does the
0:09:03 > 0:09:10Deputy First Minister agree that nothing short of an int review, but
0:09:10 > 0:09:13does he agree a review informed by women's organisation and trade
0:09:13 > 0:09:19unions is required and any such review should consider the
0:09:19 > 0:09:22procedures used to report and record incidents and the churl of
0:09:22 > 0:09:26Parliament given for example the run of Parliament is currently overseen
0:09:26 > 0:09:33by all male groups of MSPs?I do. I think it would be a good idea, if in
0:09:33 > 0:09:37the world that all of us take forward in this that, we work
0:09:37 > 0:09:43closely with the organisations in Scotland that have served our
0:09:43 > 0:09:45country extremely well, in supporting women in coming forward
0:09:45 > 0:09:52to raise their concern, whether that is Women's Aid or Rape Crisis
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Scotland, or the organisations like engender close the gap. There is
0:09:56 > 0:09:59tremendous range of organisations who serve our country extremely well
0:09:59 > 0:10:03in that respect.Can I ask if he agreed one of the most important
0:10:03 > 0:10:08things we can achieve in terms of that long emterse change is ensuring
0:10:08 > 0:10:15every child in every school receives the highest standard of sexual
0:10:15 > 0:10:18relationship education, including a thorough and comprehensive approach
0:10:18 > 0:10:22to discussing consent, and bodily autonomy, appropriate at every age.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26Isn't this one of the most important thing we can do to positively
0:10:26 > 0:10:30influence the behaviour an attitudes of boys and young men, as well as
0:10:30 > 0:10:37ensuring that no child grows up under the expectation that abusive,
0:10:37 > 0:10:41harassing or entitled behaviour is a normal part of life they should put
0:10:41 > 0:10:48up with?I agree with Patrick Harvie on the issue of the importance of
0:10:48 > 0:10:53education around the question of consent, and most, more importantly,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56for there, the whole question of consent to be respected fully within
0:10:56 > 0:11:02our society. I acknowledge the complex nature of
0:11:02 > 0:11:06addressing the problem and discussion this afternoon, but also
0:11:06 > 0:11:09I welcome the cross-party for new steps to make complaint process
0:11:09 > 0:11:13clear and fair, we need to take steps to make sure those working in
0:11:13 > 0:11:17this place, where ever they are based, no unequivocally they will be
0:11:17 > 0:11:22represented and kept safe, but the deputy First Minister agree that
0:11:22 > 0:11:28harassment is worse where there are big discrepancies of power. MSP
0:11:28 > 0:11:32staff have the right to complain or direct to the ethical Standards
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Commissioner, staff have told me this morning, however, that the root
0:11:35 > 0:11:40to ethical standard commissioner is not clearly set out in the Code of
0:11:40 > 0:11:44Conduct, nor the standards legislation, nor indeed in contracts
0:11:44 > 0:11:48of employment, given that contacting party business managers, one of whom
0:11:48 > 0:11:52is a government minister maybe a daunting prospects for staff, will
0:11:52 > 0:11:56the Scottish Government support taking steps to make sure that MSP
0:11:56 > 0:12:01staff can and should approach the ethical Standards Commissioners
0:12:01 > 0:12:06directly where appropriate and necessary?I think certainly in the
0:12:06 > 0:12:11work the permanent secretary will be taking forward on behalf of the
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Scottish Government, we will look to Lesley Evans to ensure that the
0:12:15 > 0:12:20steps and the approaches that we have in place, properly take account
0:12:20 > 0:12:24of the sentiments that Mr McArthur has raised today.Let us go over
0:12:24 > 0:12:27live to the Garden Lobby.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Our line-up of MSPs today includes Maree Todd from the SNP,
0:12:30 > 0:12:31Rachael Hamilton from the Conservatives,
0:12:31 > 0:12:36Rhoda Grant from Labour and John Finnie from the Greens.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44I wonderful, Moray Macdonald may have put his fingers on something a
0:12:44 > 0:12:49few minutes ago when he said part of the problem when it comes to staff
0:12:49 > 0:12:53working for members of particle and the Scottish Parliament is they are
0:12:53 > 0:12:59employed directly by the MPs an MSPs they work for so you are in an
0:12:59 > 0:13:04invidious position, if you, your boss does something inappropriate
0:13:04 > 0:13:10and you are an employee of that boss, then understandably you, you
0:13:10 > 0:13:15are either prepared to accept you will lose your job or you won't do
0:13:15 > 0:13:20anything?I don't think that is case, if there was a assistance
0:13:20 > 0:13:25available to MSP staff they could then seek early intervention if they
0:13:25 > 0:13:28were uncomfortable of behaviours that could lead to a resolution of
0:13:28 > 0:13:32that. That would work, we have to get away from point where women feel
0:13:32 > 0:13:37their job or their career is at stake, if they complaint, that is
0:13:37 > 0:13:40what has brought silence for so long and now there is a chance to change
0:13:40 > 0:13:46this.The point is, the point is this is a stwruc churl problem of
0:13:46 > 0:13:50the way staff are employed by MP, everyone thinks that women should be
0:13:50 > 0:13:53in a position where they can complain, it is one thing to do that
0:13:53 > 0:13:59if you work for a large company and there is an HR department. If you
0:13:59 > 0:14:02are a reSerber -- researches employed by an MP or MSP that is a
0:14:02 > 0:14:06different situation.It is a different situation, but the
0:14:06 > 0:14:12Parliament and the Parliament in Scot where my knowledge comes from
0:14:12 > 0:14:16does supply services for MSP staff and gives them assistance where that
0:14:16 > 0:14:20is required so I think it wouldn't be a huge step for them to advise
0:14:20 > 0:14:25them in this matter and give them the help and support they need to
0:14:25 > 0:14:29deal with those situation, because if we leaf it to the member, the
0:14:29 > 0:14:33member of staff going to the member, that is not going to work, if that
0:14:33 > 0:14:40member is already abusing their position.Rachel Hamilton, what in
0:14:40 > 0:14:44your view are we dealing with here, the impression one would have got
0:14:44 > 0:14:50over the past few days is that the Scottish Parliament is rife with
0:14:50 > 0:14:56sexual harassment, if not sexual assault. Is that the case, or are we
0:14:56 > 0:15:01talking about a few isolated incidents?Well, I mean we take this
0:15:01 > 0:15:07issue of sexual haars wherement very seriously and so far, there seems to
0:15:07 > 0:15:11be only isolated cases of accusations an these accusations
0:15:11 > 0:15:14clearly have to be investigated and investigated seriously and
0:15:14 > 0:15:19professionally. What we have done within the Scottish Conservative
0:15:19 > 0:15:24Party is to actually allocate a member of staff who is training
0:15:24 > 0:15:29specifically for other members of staff to go to, with any issues they
0:15:29 > 0:15:34might have, and your point there about the MSPs, employing their own
0:15:34 > 0:15:37staff, it is like that in a business situation as well, yes, we don't
0:15:37 > 0:15:43have an HR department but we do have a go to person within the Scottish
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Conservative Party.
0:15:48 > 0:15:54Maree Todd, your party is already investigating a couple of incidents.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58What's your view of the extent of this?I think it's impossible to
0:15:58 > 0:16:05know what the extent of this is. What is possible to see very clearly
0:16:05 > 0:16:10is that there is strong leadership on this issue within Parliament, and
0:16:10 > 0:16:13with all the parties across the board within Scottish parliament. My
0:16:13 > 0:16:18own party has put in place some internal procedures so members of
0:16:18 > 0:16:21the party can seek help from somebody from outside the party
0:16:21 > 0:16:27should they have something to report. Or a concern to raise. The
0:16:27 > 0:16:33parliament is also doing something similar, so there is somebody
0:16:33 > 0:16:35independent of the MSPs, so that situation of having to go to your
0:16:35 > 0:16:42boss about a problem with that boss should not arise in future. This is
0:16:42 > 0:16:47something everybody is taken very seriously.The trouble is, please
0:16:47 > 0:16:52don't take this question personally, it's not your responsibility, but
0:16:52 > 0:16:57everyone has been taking this very seriously in British society for 30
0:16:57 > 0:17:05years. And yet, because of what happens in a case in Hollywood, in
0:17:05 > 0:17:08America, suddenly all these allegations are coming out in places
0:17:08 > 0:17:19like Holyrood and Westminster. It's not new, the idea that men, some
0:17:19 > 0:17:22men, behave badly, and that needs clamping down on. If you asked a
0:17:22 > 0:17:26politician from any party in the 1980s, they would say, of course,
0:17:26 > 0:17:31that's intolerable.I agree, it's not new, but the difference is that
0:17:31 > 0:17:36it is being handled differently nowadays. If you had raised a
0:17:36 > 0:17:40concern back in 1960s or 70s, or even the 80s come you might have
0:17:40 > 0:17:44been told, that's just the way it is. That's not the case now, and
0:17:44 > 0:17:48everybody takes it very seriously and is keen to encourage people to
0:17:48 > 0:17:52come forward with concerns. And they will be dealt with.John Finnie,
0:17:52 > 0:17:57what's your take on that? I imagine that most of the public will think,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01the new Scottish parliament was created in 1999, it was going to be
0:18:01 > 0:18:07open and transparent. Surely there was never a situation in the new
0:18:07 > 0:18:11Scottish parliament where this thing could go on, and people felt that if
0:18:11 > 0:18:18they reported it, they would be told to shut up.Anyone who reports an
0:18:18 > 0:18:23incident needs in the first instance someone to go to. Your initial
0:18:23 > 0:18:26question identified the challenge here. I am an employer of three
0:18:26 > 0:18:31people, and I have a human resource Department to support me. Their job
0:18:31 > 0:18:35is to support me and not my staff so there is a gap in process there.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39This is also a culture, environmental and gender issue. My
0:18:39 > 0:18:44former career in the police service, you had a situation where a uniform
0:18:44 > 0:18:47discipline service there, you still needed mechanisms whereby people
0:18:47 > 0:18:53could come forward and legitimately make complaints. Long term it is
0:18:53 > 0:18:57cultural, as Patrick Harvie in the clip said, this needs to be
0:18:57 > 0:18:59education, sexual education and needs to be about the issue of
0:18:59 > 0:19:05consent. And most of all about respect.You are saying there is an
0:19:05 > 0:19:09issue to do with the way employment works. With members of staff of an
0:19:09 > 0:19:16MSP. What's the solution to that? Others have talked about how there
0:19:16 > 0:19:21has to be a third-party ombudsman or third party you can go to if you are
0:19:21 > 0:19:25concerned about how you have been treated. I'm not sure how that gets
0:19:25 > 0:19:29round the problem. If I was a young female member of staff working for
0:19:29 > 0:19:33an MSP who I feel has behaved inappropriately, I might know there
0:19:33 > 0:19:38is a third person I can go to, but I would also feel that if I went to do
0:19:38 > 0:19:42that, my career is pretty much over. And doesn't that sum up the pressure
0:19:42 > 0:19:46that young women are under and shouldn't be under? We need a
0:19:46 > 0:19:50culture where young women can come forward. There has been talk of a
0:19:50 > 0:19:54confidential helpline. That could play a part. Sometime it's not
0:19:54 > 0:19:59individual incidents that gets things done, it's a series that are
0:19:59 > 0:20:03disclosed, patterns of behaviour. Fundamentally this is about respect.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07It is gender-based and men are still continuing to be disrespectful to
0:20:07 > 0:20:11women, and that is the fundamental problem.Rhoda Grant, do you think
0:20:11 > 0:20:16there is a need to pin this town a little bit? You will have got the
0:20:16 > 0:20:20impression of the last few days that this is rife in both Holyrood and
0:20:20 > 0:20:25Westminster. But there are a lot of allegations going around at the
0:20:25 > 0:20:29moment and a lot of broadbrush statements like sexual harassment is
0:20:29 > 0:20:34rife, all over the place and that type of thing. Some of this needs to
0:20:34 > 0:20:38be backed up with specifics.Is very difficult to back it up with
0:20:38 > 0:20:43specifics because of the nature of it. Holyrood, Westminster, every
0:20:43 > 0:20:49other organisation represents what's going on in day to day life. We have
0:20:49 > 0:20:53inequality in society. We have tried to deal with that. Statistics out
0:20:53 > 0:20:57today show the pay gap, for instance, is really difficult to
0:20:57 > 0:21:03deal with. Until we get equality, this will go on, and it is a
0:21:03 > 0:21:08minority, I stress a menorah to your bank, abuse their power over women.
0:21:08 > 0:21:15-- a minority of men.There is another side to this, all sorts of
0:21:15 > 0:21:21allegations are being made at the moment. Dominic Raab, the
0:21:21 > 0:21:27Conservative MP, for example. There is an unsigned document going around
0:21:27 > 0:21:34document which names him, accuses him of sexual harassment. He says he
0:21:34 > 0:21:41didn't do it, but the point he is making is, his career could be
0:21:41 > 0:21:44potentially damaged by documents that have not been signed by anyone.
0:21:44 > 0:21:49While we want people to feel free to come forward, at the same time we
0:21:49 > 0:21:52don't just want allegations going out against named individuals with
0:21:52 > 0:21:57nothing to back them up.Indeed not, which is why we need it properly
0:21:57 > 0:22:00investigated with a goat to organisation that will do that, to
0:22:00 > 0:22:05ensure people have a safe place to make those allegations. That
0:22:05 > 0:22:13anonymous allegations are going out there tells you that even in this
0:22:13 > 0:22:18maelstrom of opinion and allegation, people still don't feel safe in
0:22:18 > 0:22:23calling people out for bad behaviour. Obviously in there, there
0:22:23 > 0:22:28can be malicious allegations. That's why we need to open it up, make sure
0:22:28 > 0:22:30it's properly investigated, and those responsible are held to
0:22:30 > 0:22:35account.Rachael Hamilton, I'm not sure I understand when it comes to
0:22:35 > 0:22:42the details. Picking up what John Finnie said, let's say I am a member
0:22:42 > 0:22:45of female staff, I'm employed by a member of the Scottish parliament
0:22:45 > 0:22:50and I feel he has behaved inappropriately towards me. There is
0:22:50 > 0:22:55somebody I can report it to, but I'm thinking, I don't care, that as soon
0:22:55 > 0:23:03as it comes out, that I have reported him, one way or another my
0:23:03 > 0:23:06career is over. I'm not sure anything is being done that gets
0:23:06 > 0:23:12around that problem.I think we need to have faith in the third-party
0:23:12 > 0:23:16support we are offering.The point I am making, and I think the point
0:23:16 > 0:23:19John Finnie was making is that nobody is questioning the third
0:23:19 > 0:23:24party would be genuine, the point is that structurally I am still in a
0:23:24 > 0:23:28situation where if I am that young woman, I might think that third
0:23:28 > 0:23:32party is genuine, but as soon as this comes out, and as soon as they
0:23:32 > 0:23:35go to him and say allegations have been made against you, then that's
0:23:35 > 0:23:42me finished.I can imagine if somebody was being accused after
0:23:42 > 0:23:46being insinuated in a sexual harassment allegation, I am sure
0:23:46 > 0:23:52that person would get an inordinate amount of support. And therefore
0:23:52 > 0:23:56feel they wouldn't just have to do suddenly leave their job or not feel
0:23:56 > 0:24:01they can stay within their job. Rhoda Grant made the point that we
0:24:01 > 0:24:06have to look at the investigation point of view.I'm sorry, Rachael
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Hamilton, that you say, I'm sure they wouldn't, but what you are
0:24:10 > 0:24:17saying wouldn't happen is precisely what women in Parliament, and we
0:24:17 > 0:24:21have a succession of extremely well-known actresses coming out and
0:24:21 > 0:24:26saying that they felt they were in precisely that position. So why
0:24:26 > 0:24:30should young inexperienced members of the Scottish Parliament staff be
0:24:30 > 0:24:33in a different position?You are suggesting, I think, that that
0:24:33 > 0:24:40individual would be supported to take the allegation through. They
0:24:40 > 0:24:43absolutely would. The Scottish parliament would get involved.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Perhaps they would be illegal involvement. It's ridiculous to
0:24:47 > 0:24:50suggest that person would feel so threatened they would have to leave
0:24:50 > 0:24:54their job. If they brought an allegation against somebody such as
0:24:54 > 0:25:00an MSP who employed them.OK, but married Todd, in that case, if this
0:25:00 > 0:25:05is the way the system functions, it's difficult to know why there can
0:25:05 > 0:25:08possibly be a problem in the first place. Clearly something is not
0:25:08 > 0:25:13working here.I think there is a difference between what happens in
0:25:13 > 0:25:17the law and what happens in culture. There is legal protection for people
0:25:17 > 0:25:21in their jobs, and you can't just be spuriously sacked because you make
0:25:21 > 0:25:26an accusation against your employer, so anybody coming forward would have
0:25:26 > 0:25:33that legal protection. But you are right, there is a cultural issue for
0:25:33 > 0:25:37a young person to speak out against their employer. There is a cultural
0:25:37 > 0:25:42issue for a woman to speak out against sexual harassment. Women
0:25:42 > 0:25:45have a lifetime of cultural programming to undo when they speak
0:25:45 > 0:25:51up about these things.We are running out of time. Can I ask all
0:25:51 > 0:25:56of you, starting with married Todd, have you ever been the victim of
0:25:56 > 0:26:02anything like this, or have you been told of people who are?I think
0:26:02 > 0:26:05that's a completely inappropriate question. We are trying to create an
0:26:05 > 0:26:08environment where it's perfectly possible for women to come forward
0:26:08 > 0:26:15and speak about these issues. That's about as appropriate as me asking
0:26:15 > 0:26:19you whether you ever harassed anyone.Rachael Hamilton, do you
0:26:19 > 0:26:25agree with that? I also ask, have you been told that this is going on?
0:26:25 > 0:26:34I haven't been told. I am a business person. We have an HR facility
0:26:34 > 0:26:42within the business we own. I treat my staff with respect, and I hope
0:26:42 > 0:26:45that if they have any issues whatsoever with any other members in
0:26:45 > 0:26:50the parliament, that they would come to me and speak to me or go to a
0:26:50 > 0:26:54person who is impartial and a trained individual.I am trying to
0:26:54 > 0:27:03get a sense of... Not how serious, because it is very serious, but
0:27:03 > 0:27:07Rhoda Grant, have you been experiencing this, or have been told
0:27:07 > 0:27:13about it?We wouldn't be having this kind of conversation in the media
0:27:13 > 0:27:18just now. The ways some of the conversations surrounding this is
0:27:18 > 0:27:22about women, it's not, it's actually about men's bad behaviour, and men
0:27:22 > 0:27:26having to change their attitudes. If people were aware of that then they
0:27:26 > 0:27:30would call them to account. But the way it happens, people abuse their
0:27:30 > 0:27:35power, pick on people who will not speak out and therefore go under the
0:27:35 > 0:27:40radar and perpetrate that kind of abuse. Now we have the chance to do
0:27:40 > 0:27:44something about it.The reason I'm asking you this question, I'm not
0:27:44 > 0:27:48trying to pry into privacy or anything, married Todd, I asked the
0:27:48 > 0:27:51same thing of Shona Robinson at the weekend and she was more than happy
0:27:51 > 0:27:55to answer it, but part of the problem with this is that people
0:27:55 > 0:28:02have said, I have heard that, rather than, it's happens to me, or I have
0:28:02 > 0:28:05known friends and colleagues who have suffered this. That's part of
0:28:05 > 0:28:10the problem with this, Rhoda Grant. The trouble is, it goes on
0:28:10 > 0:28:13throughout society. If you tell me it doesn't happen at the BBC, then
0:28:13 > 0:28:17that's wrong. But has anybody told you about it, does anybody come to
0:28:17 > 0:28:21you? We have to change the way society views it. By asking people
0:28:21 > 0:28:25to put their head above the parapet, that's not the way to do that.Maree
0:28:25 > 0:28:37Todd Testa I want to agree with Rhoda Grant. -- Maree Todd?Simply
0:28:37 > 0:28:40because I haven't experienced sexual harassment since I came to work it,
0:28:40 > 0:28:44that doesn't mean it doesn't go on. And had you been told by friends and
0:28:44 > 0:28:49colleagues that they had, that's the point?Clearly there are allegations
0:28:49 > 0:28:54within the public domain and we need to create an environment where
0:28:54 > 0:28:57people feel supported to come forward and talk about those issues
0:28:57 > 0:29:03and gain help with them.John Finnie, have you heard stories of
0:29:03 > 0:29:07this sort of thing going on?I am not aware of specific allegations.
0:29:07 > 0:29:12If I was aware of them, depending on the nature of them, I would
0:29:12 > 0:29:16certainly encourage the individual to report certain matters to the
0:29:16 > 0:29:19police and support the individual in gaining support perhaps outwith the
0:29:19 > 0:29:27building here. This entirely is a gender based issue, it's about the
0:29:27 > 0:29:35abuse of power. We need to have a situation where the appreciation
0:29:35 > 0:29:38that allegations puts the focus on the complainer is not the way to
0:29:38 > 0:29:44proceed with this. There can be repeat victimisation, and that can
0:29:44 > 0:29:48take the form of inactivity by persons that are told, or a failure
0:29:48 > 0:29:53to address the issue properly. I think we need a culture first and
0:29:53 > 0:29:55foremost where people are prepared to come forward and they know they
0:29:55 > 0:30:00will be supported.We will have to leave it there. Thank you all very
0:30:00 > 0:30:05much indeed for joining us today. Moray Macdonald, it looks like your
0:30:05 > 0:30:09point about the nature of employment contracts here, you might have hit
0:30:09 > 0:30:13on something.I think there is something in that. I felt the four
0:30:13 > 0:30:17of them were floundering a little bit every time you were asking the
0:30:17 > 0:30:21questions, and they kept referring to that third party. You are right
0:30:21 > 0:30:26to some extent, there needs to be an independent party where staff, MSPs,
0:30:26 > 0:30:31or those employed in Parliament can go to. Most businesses have that. My
0:30:31 > 0:30:35business has an alert line you can call operated by a exterior company
0:30:35 > 0:30:39that can do that to make sure you get your concerns across. But I
0:30:39 > 0:30:43think there is a fundamental power play there. I'm not sure how you fix
0:30:43 > 0:30:44it, but it is a problem.
0:30:49 > 0:30:54One of the good things is there is a MSP who a complaint stand up against
0:30:54 > 0:30:58them they are probably out op their ear now, I suspect that a positive
0:30:58 > 0:31:03thing. Things will be be dealt with more quickly but the relationship
0:31:03 > 0:31:08between MSPs and staff to me feels wrong, I am someone who has been
0:31:08 > 0:31:14employed in that situation.I can understand Moray Macdonald saying I
0:31:14 > 0:31:19don't care what happens to me, if it is not unrebellion, part of the
0:31:19 > 0:31:23problem is everyone, all the politicians are telling us this is a
0:31:23 > 0:31:27terribly serious problem which they are taking terribly seriously, I
0:31:27 > 0:31:30don't mean those four know that these incidents are happening, but
0:31:30 > 0:31:34the point is is there is a lot that, it is just happening, well what is
0:31:34 > 0:31:38happening? Happening? I don't know, or I don't want to answer that. We
0:31:38 > 0:31:42are effort will, we don't know whether this is a serious a problem
0:31:42 > 0:31:46as the politicians are saying is or not?I don't think we will know
0:31:46 > 0:31:50until people come out and, and speak about what has happened, if not
0:31:50 > 0:31:53publicly to the authorities and it is dealt with. I think the issue we
0:31:53 > 0:31:59have, is in the way our Parliament, our media operate, it is a
0:31:59 > 0:32:02environment where people work late together by nature of the job, they
0:32:02 > 0:32:05work closely together. They are in drinking environment, things happen.
0:32:05 > 0:32:09One of the issues is we probably aren't wear of the worst examples of
0:32:09 > 0:32:13the things that are really bad because they are enden away, people
0:32:13 > 0:32:18don't want the talk about them.Do you mean if there are serious sexual
0:32:18 > 0:32:22assault.Rape, whatever, we are not hearing at them. We need to make
0:32:22 > 0:32:27sure they are dealt with. What we hear is tittle-tattle, I'm aware
0:32:27 > 0:32:33that MSP is having a relationship with someone or someone is at a
0:32:33 > 0:32:36party, none of those things are necessarily wrong as long as they
0:32:36 > 0:32:42are being done in a consensual way, but that, I hear, often, about some,
0:32:42 > 0:32:46someone is, was seen as a party snogging someone, that type of thing
0:32:46 > 0:32:48and there is nothing wrong with that, but that is what people tend
0:32:48 > 0:32:53to talk an the most. What we need to focus on is Serbs you cases.We will
0:32:53 > 0:32:58have to move on. That is what is confusing, listening to how the four
0:32:58 > 0:33:01of them answered that last question, what they were wear of. If you were
0:33:01 > 0:33:07a member of the public at home would you conclude that there is a serious
0:33:07 > 0:33:12issue here, which we should be concerned about as matter of
0:33:12 > 0:33:16serious, as a priority, or would you conclude, well, there may be is an
0:33:16 > 0:33:21issue and there may be, maybe they should set up an inquiry?There a
0:33:21 > 0:33:24serious issue across society, we need to make sure that women or
0:33:24 > 0:33:28anyone who is harassed or sexually assaulted needs to find a way to
0:33:28 > 0:33:31reported where they are protected. I don't think it matters where, where
0:33:31 > 0:33:35that is.Were you convinced by the trir arguments there?I am not
0:33:35 > 0:33:39really. The problem is your politicians in the public eye and
0:33:39 > 0:33:42everyone you see is being analysed through a certain political lens
0:33:42 > 0:33:46someone might have. The trouble is any tittle-tattle stuff will be used
0:33:46 > 0:33:49against people in a we that is not helpful to anyone.
0:33:49 > 0:33:56-- a way.We will be back with you later P
0:33:56 > 0:34:00Now, it's that time in the programme when we randomly drop in on a bit
0:34:00 > 0:34:04of live action from the main chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
0:34:04 > 0:34:09Members on both sides testify house have been concerned about
0:34:09 > 0:34:12allegations of haar rarsment and mistreatment here in Westminster.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15The demands a response and is why the leader of the house has been
0:34:15 > 0:34:19meeting with her counterparts and we are hopeful all sides can work
0:34:19 > 0:34:23together to resolve this. I have written to all party leader,
0:34:23 > 0:34:27inviting them the a meeting next week so we can discuss an
0:34:27 > 0:34:31independent grievance procedure for all those works in Parliament. We
0:34:31 > 0:34:35have a duty to ensure that everyone coming here to contribute to public
0:34:35 > 0:34:40life, is treated with respect. Mr Speaker, this morning I had
0:34:40 > 0:34:45meetings with colleagues in addition to my duties in this House, I will
0:34:45 > 0:34:49have further such meetings.On the question of the sex harassment
0:34:49 > 0:34:52allegation that the Prime Minister rightly referred to, to put on the
0:34:52 > 0:34:55record I am happy to meet with the Prime Minister and all party leaders
0:34:55 > 0:35:01to discuss this, we immediate better protections for all this in House,
0:35:01 > 0:35:07this House must involve workplace trade unions in that, but it is also
0:35:07 > 0:35:11incumbent on all parties to have robust procedures in place to
0:35:11 > 0:35:19protect and support victim of sexual abuse and harassment.Mr Speaker, in
0:35:19 > 0:35:232010, the Labour Government intervened through HMRC to shut down
0:35:23 > 0:35:28an Isle of Man scheme used to import yachts into the European Union.And
0:35:28 > 0:35:35thus avoid tax. A similar scheme has been exposed erelating to import of
0:35:35 > 0:35:41business jets into the Isle of Man. So can the Prime Minister assure the
0:35:41 > 0:35:48House that HMRC investigates these new allegations diligently?He talks
0:35:48 > 0:35:53about tax avoidance, I can assure him where cases are referred to HMRC
0:35:53 > 0:35:58in relation to tax avoidance they take those seriously, do look into
0:35:58 > 0:36:02those measures seriously, we have taken action over the last few year,
0:36:02 > 0:36:09since 2010 when we fist came in, and we have secured almost £160 billion
0:36:09 > 0:36:12in additional compliance revenue, since 2010, through a number of
0:36:12 > 0:36:16measures we have taken to ensure that we clamp-down on tax evasion
0:36:16 > 0:36:21and say I do vans.The reality is that new research shows that working
0:36:21 > 0:36:27single parents could lose an average of £1350 a year, because of the cuts
0:36:27 > 0:36:33to work allowances. Mr Speaker, Universal Credit is fast becoming
0:36:33 > 0:36:40Theresa May's poll tax. The Prime Minister has a habit of
0:36:40 > 0:36:46U-turn, whether she U-turn one more time and fix the problems with
0:36:46 > 0:36:51Universal Credit.I have underlined the principle that lies behind it
0:36:51 > 0:36:54which believe is a very important one, and that is why when when he
0:36:54 > 0:36:58look at the support that is given to people, it isn't just about the
0:36:58 > 0:37:02support they receive in financial terms, it is also about the support
0:37:02 > 0:37:06they receive to help them to get into the workplace, to ensure that
0:37:06 > 0:37:09they can actually meet the requirements of getting into the
0:37:09 > 0:37:13workplace and when they are in the workplace they can keep more of the
0:37:13 > 0:37:18money they earn. I think that is an important principle, we will
0:37:18 > 0:37:22continue to roll out Universal Credit. Looking carefully at the
0:37:22 > 0:37:26implementation of Universal Credit as we do so because we doing this in
0:37:26 > 0:37:30a careful way over a period of time, but the important principle is that
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Universal Credit is a simpler system but ensures that people keep more as
0:37:34 > 0:37:38they earn more.I would like to thank the Prime Minister for
0:37:38 > 0:37:41hopering words about the horrific revelations this week, but can I say
0:37:41 > 0:37:48to her, that three years ago, I brought evidence to her, in this
0:37:48 > 0:37:52House, that whips had used information about sexual abuse to
0:37:52 > 0:37:56demand loyalty from MPs. I brought that information to her in the House
0:37:56 > 0:38:02and I warned her at the time that unless real action was taken, we
0:38:02 > 0:38:06risked repeating those injustices again today. On three occasion, I
0:38:06 > 0:38:12asked her to act and on three occasions, she did not, so can I ask
0:38:12 > 0:38:17her, in this of all weeks, for the fourth time, will she finally take
0:38:17 > 0:38:24concrete action to tackle this? I will of course look back at the
0:38:24 > 0:38:27questions that the honourable lady has said she raised with me in to
0:38:27 > 0:38:32House. I assume she raised with me when I was Home Secretary, we, I
0:38:32 > 0:38:38will say to her that I am very clear, that the Whips office, I hope
0:38:38 > 0:38:42this goes for all Whips offices across the House, should make clear
0:38:42 > 0:38:46to people, that where there are any sexual abuse allegations that could
0:38:46 > 0:38:49be of a criminal nature that people should go to the police, it is not
0:38:49 > 0:38:53appropriate for these to be dealt with by Whips office, those should
0:38:53 > 0:38:57Gou to the police, that continues to be the case, as I sayly look at the
0:38:57 > 0:39:03questions she raised with me, but I am very clear, that we will take
0:39:03 > 0:39:08action against those where there are allegations, that we see, and the
0:39:08 > 0:39:13evidence is there, that there has been misconduct, but, can I just say
0:39:13 > 0:39:17to the honourable lady, I hope we will all send a message from the
0:39:17 > 0:39:22House today, that we want people in this place, to be able to feel
0:39:22 > 0:39:28confident to bring forward cases, and we need to ensure, we need to
0:39:28 > 0:39:32ensure that those cases, no, we need to ensure those cases are dealt
0:39:32 > 0:39:37with, in a way that people can have confidence on both sides, that they
0:39:37 > 0:39:43will be properly investigated. That means, and I want to see a good
0:39:43 > 0:39:47process within this Parliament, so people feel they do not have to go
0:39:47 > 0:39:50to a party political process, in order to have their allegations
0:39:50 > 0:39:59cannered. Is that potentially serious, if Lisa
0:39:59 > 0:40:03nan didid raise questions when he was Home Secretary and Theresa May
0:40:03 > 0:40:09didn't do anything about it Ant couldn't remember being askedIt is
0:40:09 > 0:40:12clear she couldn't remember the questions being asked and she was
0:40:12 > 0:40:16Home Secretary for six or seven years, so I find it strange she
0:40:16 > 0:40:19wouldn't remember those questions if they were put in the way they will
0:40:19 > 0:40:25is a nan disays they were, and I haven't seen the questions since
0:40:25 > 0:40:29then, but the point Lisa nan diraises is an important one. There
0:40:29 > 0:40:34is footage going back to 1995 of whips discussing a whip a former
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Tory whip discussing how they managed members and use nuggets of
0:40:38 > 0:40:42information to control them. That clip specifically, sex abuse was
0:40:42 > 0:40:49talked about. That when I saw it, I was horrified.That, as a complete
0:40:49 > 0:40:53outsider that would be my, we heard or MSPs talking about how they
0:40:53 > 0:40:57wanted a system where there were third party, people could go to, yet
0:40:57 > 0:41:03here we have a Labour MP, saying several years ago I asked the Home
0:41:03 > 0:41:05Secretary, gave some examples and asked her to do something about it
0:41:05 > 0:41:09and nothing happened. A lot of people will think having third
0:41:09 > 0:41:12parties isn't going to do much good. No, and the trouble is at the end of
0:41:12 > 0:41:18the day with this we will be relying on the behaviour of people whether,
0:41:18 > 0:41:23and how a whip behaves is going to be up to the moral compass of that
0:41:23 > 0:41:28person, and what we have to hope is in society whether it be through
0:41:28 > 0:41:32education or training or through... That we realise how, how to behave
0:41:32 > 0:41:37in that type of environment.All right. Sorry about that unexpected
0:41:37 > 0:41:43bit of music we gave you there. Let us go back to Westminster with our
0:41:43 > 0:41:46political correspondent Andrew kerb.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Back to Westminster now with our political
0:41:48 > 0:41:50correspondent, Andrew Kerr.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54This scandal is gripping the houses of Parliament here, we are not
0:41:54 > 0:41:57talking about Brexit, we are focussing on something different.
0:41:57 > 0:42:01One commentator said this is a storm that is about to break, over at
0:42:01 > 0:42:04Westminster, some people have been saying it could be bigger than the
0:42:04 > 0:42:09expenses scandal. I am joined here on College Green by four members of
0:42:09 > 0:42:19Parliament from Scotland. From the Conservatives we Labour the SNP and
0:42:19 > 0:42:22the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Good afternoon to you. Thank you for
0:42:22 > 0:42:28joining me. Let us turn to PMQs and the announcement that Theresa May at
0:42:28 > 0:42:33the begin of the session, just about this new body that might have power
0:42:33 > 0:42:36over the whole of Westminster, everyone working in the Palace over
0:42:36 > 0:42:41there, what more information do you have on that? How might it work?It
0:42:41 > 0:42:46is important we have an independent body, this is obviously an issue
0:42:46 > 0:42:50that affects cross-party, affecting everybody from employee,
0:42:50 > 0:42:54researchers, and everyone, we need to have than independent advice and
0:42:54 > 0:42:58support there, so and Theresa May was also very clear she was going to
0:42:58 > 0:43:01have a cross-party meeting with all leaders as well, because I think
0:43:01 > 0:43:06this is an issue everybody needs to work together. Nobody across
0:43:06 > 0:43:09Parliament, you know, they all want to see this resolved or see a way
0:43:09 > 0:43:15forward. That is what the Prime Minister set out to do.Would the be
0:43:15 > 0:43:20a body with teeth do you think?It has to be, I think, especially as a
0:43:20 > 0:43:24female coming into politics, I want to ensure we continue to encourage
0:43:24 > 0:43:28more females and more young people into the Parliament, and I don't
0:43:28 > 0:43:31want it to get tarnished with a particular image, so I think it is
0:43:31 > 0:43:36really important we take a hard line on these particular issue,
0:43:36 > 0:43:42especially the ones that are very saddening, a lot of these particular
0:43:42 > 0:43:47cases that have come forward with, we need to address them.We have
0:43:47 > 0:43:49heard allegations about Conservative minister, which they deny, what is
0:43:49 > 0:43:52the mood in the Conservative Party at the moment, following these
0:43:52 > 0:43:56allegations?I think it is not just the Conservative Party, we need to
0:43:56 > 0:44:01make to that clear, it is a cross-party issue, I don't believe
0:44:01 > 0:44:05that Holyrood is immune to this. As said before, all parties need to
0:44:05 > 0:44:09work together, to ensure we look out for the staff we employ who work so
0:44:09 > 0:44:14hard on our behalf and that a lot of us couldn't do without.I want to
0:44:14 > 0:44:19stay on this Parliamentary body, Theresa May denoun -- announced in
0:44:19 > 0:44:23the chamber, how do you it there behave, because of course Labour
0:44:23 > 0:44:26facing Sarah serious allegations too, about covering up an alleged
0:44:26 > 0:44:31rape?I think the first thing is this is a serious matter for all of
0:44:31 > 0:44:35us, I think it is also not just a serious matter for women, despite
0:44:35 > 0:44:39the fact we have an all women panel here today, I think any environment,
0:44:39 > 0:44:44any workplace, whether that is Parliament or a private sector,
0:44:44 > 0:44:48public sector, needs to have a clear set of guidelines and rules that
0:44:48 > 0:44:53people feel safe in the workplace, and that includes harassment and
0:44:53 > 0:44:57bullying, today we are talking about sexual harassment, but that takes
0:44:57 > 0:45:00many different tomorrow forms and we need to recognise that, as someone
0:45:00 > 0:45:05who worked in industry and had to investigate these kind of issues it
0:45:05 > 0:45:09is important we have an openness and transparent I about the policy we
0:45:09 > 0:45:14have, which is why Labour has updated and published its policy,
0:45:14 > 0:45:18think all parties right now, while whatever the outcomes are here, we
0:45:18 > 0:45:23need to be open and transparent about what we are doing now, so I
0:45:23 > 0:45:27would be encouraging all parties to make clear now what their policies
0:45:27 > 0:45:31are so if there are current issue, that people are feeling concerned is
0:45:31 > 0:45:35about now, then they know they have a recourse, they don't have to wait
0:45:35 > 0:45:39for what might happen. Think that is important. I think it is about speed
0:45:39 > 0:45:43of response, it is about sensitivity of response and it is about making
0:45:43 > 0:45:46sure we investigate these allegations very serious allegation
0:45:46 > 0:45:51thoroughly.
0:45:51 > 0:45:56With your background in HR and human resources, companies have procedures
0:45:56 > 0:46:00they can follow, but working in this place where the employer is the MP,
0:46:00 > 0:46:04it makes it very difficult and often people don't want to go to the party
0:46:04 > 0:46:07itself to complain because they are worried about their future career.
0:46:07 > 0:46:13It's a very different place with that element of power.Harassment in
0:46:13 > 0:46:23a organisation is about power. It's about the culture you create, it's
0:46:23 > 0:46:27about education. In organisations where I work before you would have
0:46:27 > 0:46:31regular education sessions. We assume everybody knows how to act
0:46:31 > 0:46:35and behave. These episodes show that even today people don't,
0:46:35 > 0:46:39unfortunately. We need to calibrate people around what are the relevant
0:46:39 > 0:46:43standards of conduct and behaviour, no matter where you work. In society
0:46:43 > 0:46:49we need to understand and respect there are boundaries and that
0:46:49 > 0:46:53educate people so they understand how to adhere to those in the
0:46:53 > 0:46:57workplace.Jeremy Corbyn said he would join cross-party talks. Kirsty
0:46:57 > 0:47:07Blackman, from the SNP. The SNP have issues in this area with two
0:47:07 > 0:47:10parliamentarians being investigated for alleged sexual harassment in the
0:47:10 > 0:47:15party just now. Looking at this place, we have talked about how this
0:47:15 > 0:47:20new body overseeing this place might work, how do you think it will work?
0:47:20 > 0:47:24I think some of the comments that have been made already are really
0:47:24 > 0:47:29important. One of the issues we have is not just that this behaviour is
0:47:29 > 0:47:32happening, but that the reporting procedures are not working and
0:47:32 > 0:47:36people are not being taken seriously and concerns are not being
0:47:36 > 0:47:40investigated properly. It's really important that this body being set
0:47:40 > 0:47:43up games the confidence of people, make sure that it properly
0:47:43 > 0:47:48investigates and takes issues forward. -- gains the confidence. We
0:47:48 > 0:47:52need to have all the party leaders in talking, coming together, and
0:47:52 > 0:47:57agreeing to go forward on a joint basis makes a lot of sense and it's
0:47:57 > 0:48:01a sensible way to go. But we have been clear, and all the parties have
0:48:01 > 0:48:05been clear, that there is zero tolerance on this. Anything brought
0:48:05 > 0:48:10forward will be investigated sensitively and properly. We cannot
0:48:10 > 0:48:15condone this kind of behaviour.The Scottish parliament had the
0:48:15 > 0:48:17cross-party meeting yesterday. Why do you think Westminster waited
0:48:17 > 0:48:22until next week?I'm not sure why, perhaps it's how business has worked
0:48:22 > 0:48:28in the Commons this week. It seems to me that the Prime Minister is
0:48:28 > 0:48:31getting the backing for this planned to have a third-party body, if you
0:48:31 > 0:48:35like. It seems that across the house people are getting behind that and
0:48:35 > 0:48:39saying it's the way forward. One of the things the SNP has done is send
0:48:39 > 0:48:44out something to every member to say, this is how to report it, and
0:48:44 > 0:48:48this is the internal process. Much like the Labour Party, this is how
0:48:48 > 0:48:52you go about reporting things. And that's to somebody a step removed
0:48:52 > 0:48:58from the SNP, so they can be assured of a level of anonymity, should they
0:48:58 > 0:49:01desire it, and a proper investigation. However the person
0:49:01 > 0:49:13who has been harassed, how they want to take it forward is our paramount.
0:49:13 > 0:49:17How do you assess the scale of the sexual harassment problem at
0:49:17 > 0:49:21Westminster, having been here the last few months?It's very difficult
0:49:21 > 0:49:26because you don't know what people might not be bringing forward. Its
0:49:26 > 0:49:30excellence now that the Prime Minister has said she wants an
0:49:30 > 0:49:34independent body, but it's also important the party stud abrogate
0:49:34 > 0:49:38responsibility and say, there is an independent body. -- the parties do
0:49:38 > 0:49:45not abrogate responsibility. That would not be good enough. I don't
0:49:45 > 0:49:48think it's enough to say that now there is an independent body they
0:49:48 > 0:49:52can wash their hands of it. The parties need to take responsibility
0:49:52 > 0:49:57for people who are their staff, their volunteers, there MPs and
0:49:57 > 0:50:01MSPs. We need to make sure that we are behaving, and we are looking
0:50:01 > 0:50:05after our own people and if they have a complaint there is a body for
0:50:05 > 0:50:09them to go to. But fixing this problem starts with us, it starts
0:50:09 > 0:50:14with the people in Parliament.When you talk about looking after our own
0:50:14 > 0:50:18people, quite often people just want to look after the party and the
0:50:18 > 0:50:22party interests often come first. People might put their interests
0:50:22 > 0:50:27secondary to the party interests because here there is that feeling
0:50:27 > 0:50:30of power. That is a difficult relationship, that perhaps you don't
0:50:30 > 0:50:35have in other organisations.As we are seeing, the relationship of
0:50:35 > 0:50:39power is the one that you get in all sorts of walks of life. You have to
0:50:39 > 0:50:43be very careful. It's not just about sexual harassment, it's bullying,
0:50:43 > 0:50:49harassment of all sorts. We have to get away from the culture of
0:50:49 > 0:50:53thinking about the party and think about the individuals. We have, as
0:50:53 > 0:50:58the other parties have, a robust structure in place. We want people
0:50:58 > 0:51:03to report things if they feel they have been inappropriately treated.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06And most importantly, if it is illegal, if it is a criminal
0:51:06 > 0:51:11offence, it goes to the police.I want to carry on talking about the
0:51:11 > 0:51:15culture of this place. I want to paint that picture of how it is
0:51:15 > 0:51:19different to other organisations. Lisa Nandy said at Prime Minister's
0:51:19 > 0:51:26Questions, she had put points to Theresa May, about the whips, about
0:51:26 > 0:51:31the black books they hold of MPs. Theresa May seemed at a loss and
0:51:31 > 0:51:36could not remember Lisa Nandy asking that question.Since it has been
0:51:36 > 0:51:39clarified, Lisa Nandy was referring back to the child-abuse scandal a
0:51:39 > 0:51:46few years ago. It was slightly different, and is not as relevant to
0:51:46 > 0:51:50these sexual harassment...It is still there, isn't it, that Theresa
0:51:50 > 0:51:53May did not address the point directly and perhaps has done
0:51:53 > 0:51:58nothing about the whips and their alleged black books.I have actually
0:51:58 > 0:52:02seen her response and she did and so the question. In terms of the black
0:52:02 > 0:52:05books, I don't think anybody would hope any whips office has that
0:52:05 > 0:52:09particular process in place. The Prime Minister made that very clear
0:52:09 > 0:52:15in the chamber today.It's probably the same for Labour as well, a
0:52:15 > 0:52:20powerful party controlling its MPs through that kind of information. Do
0:52:20 > 0:52:25you know if the whips here in that place still use black books tickle
0:52:25 > 0:52:28worse people with that kind of information?I can't comment on
0:52:28 > 0:52:32that. I have not seen evidence of that.You must be to the whips all
0:52:32 > 0:52:39the time.I do, but I come back to the earlier point about the culture
0:52:39 > 0:52:43and environment we want to create. -- you must speak to the whips all
0:52:43 > 0:52:50the time.The Labour Party to pay policy out to affiliate members
0:52:50 > 0:52:53earlier this year and we try to mirror what we have seen in other
0:52:53 > 0:52:56sectors of industry. We have to recognise the starting point here is
0:52:56 > 0:53:04that we are way behind what is good practice anywhere else. And we need
0:53:04 > 0:53:08to stop looking back and say what has happened, and now focus and
0:53:08 > 0:53:12investigate where things are brought to our attention and do that in an
0:53:12 > 0:53:16appropriate way.You are the shadow Scottish secretary, you must know
0:53:16 > 0:53:19how the party operates?I can certainly talk about the culture and
0:53:19 > 0:53:23environment in a Scottish team, which is a positive one. We conduct
0:53:23 > 0:53:27ourselves in that manner. I have not seen or experienced any of the
0:53:27 > 0:53:31situations described here, but that doesn't mean to say they are not
0:53:31 > 0:53:35happening. What we have to do understand and accept is that if
0:53:35 > 0:53:40they are happening, we all have to ensure a duty of care to ourselves
0:53:40 > 0:53:45and staff and we have robust policies in place to deal with that.
0:53:45 > 0:53:49What about the SNP's culture when it comes to the whips? You have a far
0:53:49 > 0:53:54bigger number of people than you had ten years ago.I think the whips
0:53:54 > 0:53:59using indiscretions to blackmail people is not a way anybody should
0:53:59 > 0:54:05be running anything. Going forward, certainly it has in the past, Labour
0:54:05 > 0:54:09and Tory whips have behaved that way, but all parties need to be
0:54:09 > 0:54:14committing to not doing that. If it is extramarital sex, that's one
0:54:14 > 0:54:19thing, but if it is somebody who is known for harassing young
0:54:19 > 0:54:22researchers, for example, that's a totally different thing, and it
0:54:22 > 0:54:25should be reported and investigated properly and should never be used as
0:54:25 > 0:54:30blackmail material.What about the Lib Dem culture? Your party is long
0:54:30 > 0:54:35established in there. How does it operates?As I said earlier, we have
0:54:35 > 0:54:38a robust formula that he came up with quite recently. We have
0:54:38 > 0:54:45reviewed it all. What we want, as has been said, a duty of care.And
0:54:45 > 0:54:49in terms of the whips and how they operate?The way they operate is
0:54:49 > 0:54:53probably similar to everyone else. Like others, I am not aware of a
0:54:53 > 0:54:57black book with indiscretions in it. I have never even heard it mentioned
0:54:57 > 0:55:04until today. Possibly because it has not been an issue. I am not aware of
0:55:04 > 0:55:08that, and I would hope the whips in all the parties would be operating
0:55:08 > 0:55:13in a way that is acceptable, and as you have said, if somebody does
0:55:13 > 0:55:16something which is inappropriate, then they should be spoken to. If
0:55:16 > 0:55:19they do something which is potentially a criminal offence, they
0:55:19 > 0:55:23should be reported to the police. I don't think anyone would want to
0:55:23 > 0:55:28compromise on that in any way.Thank you to all my guests. Gordon, we
0:55:28 > 0:55:33will have to leave it there. Here we are in 2017 speaking about something
0:55:33 > 0:55:38like this. Perhaps many people are wondering why something like this
0:55:38 > 0:55:41hasn't been tackled a long time ago.
0:55:41 > 0:55:46STUDIO: Thanks, Andrew. Moray Macdonald is still with me. The
0:55:46 > 0:55:50thing about this is, as Andrew says, why wasn't this tackled a long time
0:55:50 > 0:55:54ago, but the fact is that we are only just now all talking about this
0:55:54 > 0:55:59because of problems that happened to some producer in Hollywood. That's
0:55:59 > 0:56:03what seems bizarre.It is, and that kicked off because somebody was
0:56:03 > 0:56:07brave enough and was able to come forward and tackle him. The reality
0:56:07 > 0:56:11is that in any situation it's about power. Harvey Weinstein has power
0:56:11 > 0:56:16over a lot of people who want to be actors, and he could easily destroy
0:56:16 > 0:56:20their career. Or in some cases destroy one of their husband's
0:56:20 > 0:56:27careers because she wasn't doing what he wanted her to do. Power
0:56:27 > 0:56:29exists everywhere, it clearly exists in Parliament. I have seen
0:56:29 > 0:56:33relationships of power working here and in New Zealand Parliament as
0:56:33 > 0:56:36well when I worked there. The reality is that people who have
0:56:36 > 0:56:44power have to be the people who know how to behave responsibly.People
0:56:44 > 0:56:48will ask, will this ever really change. In the mid-19 90s we would
0:56:48 > 0:56:51have been sitting here having this discussion and we could have talked
0:56:51 > 0:56:56to a lot of politicians and they were all would have said, sexually
0:56:56 > 0:56:59inappropriate behaviour in Parliament or anywhere or any other
0:56:59 > 0:57:03business is out of order. We have policies in place, and our companies
0:57:03 > 0:57:09and parliaments... But here we are 20 or 30 years later having the same
0:57:09 > 0:57:17conversation. When everyone says it is now, and this is in no way what
0:57:17 > 0:57:23you said with your employment contracts, if the key thing is power
0:57:23 > 0:57:28relationships, does it really make a difference if we talk about third
0:57:28 > 0:57:33parties?I am not convinced at all that any procedural or legal changes
0:57:33 > 0:57:36or third-party procedures put in place will make a jot of difference.
0:57:36 > 0:57:42They might make it easier for people to report things, or make it clearer
0:57:42 > 0:57:53to report. But they do not change the fundamentals of how power
0:57:53 > 0:57:56relationships work. In politics or any other business. We need to make
0:57:56 > 0:58:02sure that people in power know how to behave properly.We could have
0:58:02 > 0:58:05gone back 30 years and have the same conversation and really would have
0:58:05 > 0:58:09said it's very important that from now on everybody knows how to behave
0:58:09 > 0:58:13properly. Everybody would say, that's absolutely right and nothing
0:58:13 > 0:58:17happens.There is nothing you can do to legislate against there being bad
0:58:17 > 0:58:22people. There will be for ever more bad people. Our job is to make sure
0:58:22 > 0:58:25there are as few bad people as possible and for people to shout
0:58:25 > 0:58:29out. The times and people would stand by idly and not report
0:58:29 > 0:58:32somebody who is being harassed, particularly in the business world,
0:58:32 > 0:58:38that time has gone. I think in a corporate world...Clearly not in
0:58:38 > 0:58:43Hollywood. And if you believe this, clearly not in Parliament either.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45They are behind.
0:58:45 > 0:58:47That's all we've got time for today.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49My colleague Brian Taylor is back tomorrow on BBC2 at midday
0:58:49 > 0:58:52with First Minister's Questions and I'll be back at the weekend
0:58:52 > 0:58:53with Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:58:53 > 0:58:53Until then, cheerio.