:00:19. > :00:25.Hello. A very warm welcome to the Scottish parliament at Holyrood.
:00:26. > :00:32.Winter is officially over and Spring has sprung. If you think that will
:00:33. > :00:36.make the atmosphere in the chamber any less chilly? I thought you might
:00:37. > :00:40.say that! Lets crossover for questions to the First Minister.
:00:41. > :00:47.Answering a question now on the fishing industry and its importance
:00:48. > :00:52.in forthcoming negotiations on Britain's exit from the European
:00:53. > :00:59.Union. That will continue for a while, head of First Minister's
:01:00. > :01:03.Questions. It has become quite crucial to the debate on Brexit,
:01:04. > :01:10.with the two governments arguing about the position of these powers,
:01:11. > :01:14.when the UK leave the European Union. The Scottish Government
:01:15. > :01:19.argued that it should be under the purview of this place, the Scottish
:01:20. > :01:22.Government in Hollywood. UK ministers say it should be looked at
:01:23. > :01:27.on a case-by-case basis, to see what works best for the United Kingdom as
:01:28. > :01:31.a whole. Brexit is always there, as is the ongoing debate over
:01:32. > :01:34.independence, further remarks from Nicola Sturgeon this week, seeming
:01:35. > :01:40.to upped the ante, describing an independence referendum as perhaps
:01:41. > :01:47.necessary, from her point of view. Will she give any more indication on
:01:48. > :01:52.that day? Question number one, Ruth Davidson. I would like to ask the
:01:53. > :02:01.First Minister what engagements she has planned for the rest of the day.
:02:02. > :02:05.I have engagements to take forward the process for Scotland. The
:02:06. > :02:08.Education Secretary said he would delay his reform plans because he
:02:09. > :02:12.had received more than 1000 submissions and he needed more time
:02:13. > :02:16.to chew them over. Can I ask the First Minister, if I personally
:02:17. > :02:21.promise to write 1000 submissions opposing her unwanted plan for a
:02:22. > :02:28.second referendum, would she chew that over and done that as well? On
:02:29. > :02:31.education reform, a very serious matter that I would have hoped all
:02:32. > :02:36.members of the chamber would want to discuss in a serious way, we have
:02:37. > :02:41.had the consultation on governance reform. We have received over 1000
:02:42. > :02:45.responses to that consultation and it is right and proper that the
:02:46. > :02:48.Education Secretary considers all of those responses and then comes
:02:49. > :02:52.forward to Parliament with our proposals on the way forward. Of
:02:53. > :02:57.course, the government 's review is only part of the reform programme in
:02:58. > :03:01.education that we are taking forward. We have attainment
:03:02. > :03:05.challenges up and running, we have the people equity funding making
:03:06. > :03:10.sure that from the start of the coming financial year, ?120 million
:03:11. > :03:15.will be going direct to headteachers to help them with the work of
:03:16. > :03:18.closing the attainment gap. We have our national improvement framework
:03:19. > :03:22.in place. We are now publishing more data about the performance of our
:03:23. > :03:26.schools than ever before. From August this year, that data will be
:03:27. > :03:31.informed by new standardised assessment. I have made very clear,
:03:32. > :03:35.on many occasions, the priority I attach to making sure that we
:03:36. > :03:39.continue to raise standards in our schools and, crucially, that we
:03:40. > :03:42.close the stubborn attainment gap. I would hope Ruth Davidson and all
:03:43. > :03:54.members of this chamber would get behind us as we do that. There we
:03:55. > :03:59.go, education reform... Let's dig a little into the claim that he is
:04:00. > :04:04.still making up his mind about some issues of education reform. I don't
:04:05. > :04:08.think it stands up. Two years ago, a charity called the Home Time The
:04:09. > :04:12.Foundation submitted proposals to the government to set up a series of
:04:13. > :04:15.community run pilot schools across Scotland. There were told they would
:04:16. > :04:20.get an answer soon, but they are still waiting. In November of last
:04:21. > :04:24.year they wrote to Mr Swinney and it says this, the latter, we have lost
:04:25. > :04:29.our patience with the whole process. It has been a series of false dawns.
:04:30. > :04:33.Education Secretary says he needs more time. It is and it's the truth,
:04:34. > :04:38.as we see from their experience, that the government has made up its
:04:39. > :04:45.mind, it just won't say it? No, that is not the case. What we have said
:04:46. > :04:50.to Home Town and other interests here is that these decisions
:04:51. > :04:56.require, rightly and properly, to be taken in the context of the
:04:57. > :05:00.governance review. It was one part of our wider programme of reform and
:05:01. > :05:04.education. When you have a consultation with the potential for
:05:05. > :05:08.some far-reaching reforms in education, I think it is absolutely
:05:09. > :05:12.right that we take time to consider the responses and the way forward.
:05:13. > :05:16.That is what I would think people would expect us to do. As we are
:05:17. > :05:23.doing that, the other strands of the reform programme are well under way.
:05:24. > :05:27.I don't think anybody in this chamber should underestimate,
:05:28. > :05:31.because I know no headteacher in this country underestimate the
:05:32. > :05:35.importance of giving ?120 million direct to headteachers. So they can
:05:36. > :05:39.decide for themselves and fun for themselves the measures to improve
:05:40. > :05:41.attainment in schools. Standardised assessment, which will start in
:05:42. > :05:46.schools across the country from August of this year, further
:05:47. > :05:50.informing the data that we now publish so that we know in detail
:05:51. > :05:53.how our schools are performing. We know where schools are doing well
:05:54. > :05:56.and we know where schools need to do further work to improve. This is an
:05:57. > :06:03.ambitious and serious programme of reform. Instead of coming to this
:06:04. > :06:07.chamber, and I think Ruth Davidson has said in the past that she does
:06:08. > :06:11.support reforms to education, instead of coming here and sounding
:06:12. > :06:18.as if she opposes what we are doing, isn't it time she got behind the
:06:19. > :06:21.reforms we are taking forward? The First Minister is talking about her
:06:22. > :06:29.delayed governance review and says we all have to wait for it. In their
:06:30. > :06:33.letter, Hometown said they were able to crack on whether pilot projects
:06:34. > :06:37.without disrupting the review at all. What was the reply they
:06:38. > :06:42.received? I have that here. It says John Swinney is not prepared to do
:06:43. > :06:46.it. The deal for them is that you sit on fresh ideas for two years,
:06:47. > :06:49.you then say they have to wait on a review and you announce the review
:06:50. > :06:54.has been delayed because council elections are on their way. The
:06:55. > :06:59.First Minister said that education reform would be her defining
:07:00. > :07:08.mission. Given this one example, who does she think she's coming? --
:07:09. > :07:12.kidding? I spent Tuesday afternoon in a meeting with John Swinney and
:07:13. > :07:17.our Council of International education advisers. As I was doing
:07:18. > :07:20.that, I notice Ruth Davidson publishing a report on the
:07:21. > :07:25.constitution. I don't they can go to take any lessons from her on
:07:26. > :07:38.response abilities in government. It would make no sense at all, even for
:07:39. > :07:41.a Conservative, to have a review of governance and pre-empt the outcome
:07:42. > :07:46.by deciding already what track we are going to go down. We will
:07:47. > :07:51.consider carefully the responses to that consultation. John Swinney,
:07:52. > :07:57.rightly and properly, will come to the consultation. While we are doing
:07:58. > :08:01.that, we will get on with the other strands of reforms, reforms that are
:08:02. > :08:05.already starting to see difference across the education system, in
:08:06. > :08:08.powering headteachers, giving them the funding they need to make a
:08:09. > :08:12.difference and make sure we are able to tell exactly how our schools are
:08:13. > :08:17.performing. That is the kind of action I have said was a priority,
:08:18. > :08:21.and the action we are taking. Of course, we have seen just this week
:08:22. > :08:25.a report showing that, in the last financial year, that we have the
:08:26. > :08:29.information for, despite the moans of the opposition we saw real terms
:08:30. > :08:32.spending in education, in local authorities, going up. Yet more
:08:33. > :08:38.evidence of the priority given to education. As I say, I know how
:08:39. > :08:41.important it is to me, if this is so important to the opposition, it is
:08:42. > :08:43.time they got behind the reforms of this government instead of
:08:44. > :08:47.continuing to come to this chamber and simply moaning.
:08:48. > :08:57.If this is so important, why does she keep kicking the can down the
:08:58. > :09:03.road? Here is one last quote from the letter to Mr Swinney. This is
:09:04. > :09:07.really not a great demonstration of meaningful engagement with
:09:08. > :09:11.stakeholders or a good start trying to empower teachers, parents and
:09:12. > :09:16.communities to achieve fairness and equity in education, and they are
:09:17. > :09:19.not wrong. A year and a half ago, the First Minister staked her
:09:20. > :09:23.reputation on reforming Scotland's schools. What have we seen since
:09:24. > :09:27.then? We have seen literacy standards slipping, numeracy
:09:28. > :09:30.standards sliding, curriculum for excellence failing and now we have
:09:31. > :09:33.seen her Education Secretary stalling. She keeps putting their
:09:34. > :09:39.referendum on the front foot, but she is putting everyone else's
:09:40. > :09:47.child's education on the back burner. I don't know about this
:09:48. > :09:50.issue of putting something on the front foot, it appears to me that
:09:51. > :09:55.every time Ruth Davidson stands up in this chamber, all she manages to
:09:56. > :10:00.do is shoot herself in the foot. I want to talk about education and she
:10:01. > :10:04.just continually tries to shoehorn in dimensions of independence and a
:10:05. > :10:08.referendum. The only reason there is any talk about that at all is the
:10:09. > :10:12.reckless behaviour of the Tories in taking us out of the European Union
:10:13. > :10:19.against our well. I will let the Presiding Officer get back to my
:10:20. > :10:27.priority, education. Now, it seems to me that what Ruth Davidson is
:10:28. > :10:31.saying is that we shouldn't consult. Or if we do consult, we then
:10:32. > :10:35.shouldn't bother to listen to what people say. Maybe that is the
:10:36. > :10:38.approach the Conservatives at Westminster have taken, which is why
:10:39. > :10:41.they have a massive backbench rebellion on their hands over school
:10:42. > :10:45.funding right now because they are reducing the funding that many
:10:46. > :10:48.schools will have. We will continue to take this forward by listening to
:10:49. > :10:53.people and then making the decisions about the best way forward. Ruth
:10:54. > :10:59.Davidson says, what are we doing to back up the priority? I have already
:11:00. > :11:02.told her, maybe she should get into our schools and find out what is
:11:03. > :11:07.happening, instead of publishing papers about the constitution? What
:11:08. > :11:10.is happening is that our attainment challenge, our equity funding going
:11:11. > :11:15.to headteachers, standardised assessments to inform teacher
:11:16. > :11:18.judgment, more data being published a can determine how well the schools
:11:19. > :11:22.are doing and what more we need to do to support those that work in the
:11:23. > :11:27.front line in our education system. I will leave Ruth Davidson moaning
:11:28. > :11:31.on the sidelines and I will get on with my priority of raising
:11:32. > :11:34.attainment in our schools and closing the attainment gap. That is
:11:35. > :11:40.what I have said is my priority and it will continue to be so.
:11:41. > :11:49.Can I ask the First Minister what engagements she has planned?
:11:50. > :11:54.Engagements to take forward the government's plan for Scotland. Has
:11:55. > :11:58.been ten months since the election. Parents and teachers remain in the
:11:59. > :12:01.dark about the SNP plans for our schools. As we have just heard, the
:12:02. > :12:08.Education Secretary has kicked the on how schools are run down into the
:12:09. > :12:12.long grass. The First Minister said that was just one part of education
:12:13. > :12:17.reforms, and she is right. There was also the education bill, the very
:12:18. > :12:21.symbol of this government's number one priority. It has been kicked
:12:22. > :12:25.into the long grass. The SNP power grab to centralise every school
:12:26. > :12:29.budget, kicked into the long grass as well. The roll-out of national
:12:30. > :12:34.testing, which she also mentioned, has been delayed as well. Education
:12:35. > :12:40.was the First Minister's defining mission. Isn't it the case that
:12:41. > :12:43.education is defining this government as indecisive and
:12:44. > :12:51.distracted? I think that question demonstrates that when a member of
:12:52. > :12:54.Kezia Dugdale's own party, after spending a weekend at their
:12:55. > :13:01.conference, described her as simply a pound shop Ruth Davidson, she was
:13:02. > :13:06.right. Maybe more like buy one, get one free.
:13:07. > :13:15.Kezia Dugdale has just said, where is the education bill? The education
:13:16. > :13:20.Bill is what is going to deliver the proposals from the governance
:13:21. > :13:24.review. When we have considered more than 1000 responses to that and
:13:25. > :13:27.brought forward our proposals to Parliament, we will also bring
:13:28. > :13:35.forward a bill, as we said we would do. Kezia Dugdale also said we are
:13:36. > :13:42.centralising education budgets. Really? We are giving ?120 million
:13:43. > :13:47.direct to headteachers in every single, almost every single one of
:13:48. > :13:50.our schools across the country, giving resources and the power to
:13:51. > :13:55.use them direct to headteachers. Only in the world of Scottish Labour
:13:56. > :13:57.could that be described as centralising education budgets. It
:13:58. > :14:05.is the exact opposite of centralising education budgets,
:14:06. > :14:09.giving it to headteachers is decentralising it. We are empowering
:14:10. > :14:13.headteachers to deliver what they think is required to improve
:14:14. > :14:16.attainment, building on the work of our attainment challenge, the
:14:17. > :14:22.national improvement framework, as I have already said, to the other half
:14:23. > :14:25.of the act, is making sure we have the data to track improvements in
:14:26. > :14:29.our schools. This is the kind of work we are getting on with, day in,
:14:30. > :14:34.day out. I say to Kezia Dugdale what I said to Ruth Davidson, maybe they
:14:35. > :14:37.should get out a bit more, into our schools, as I was yesterday, and see
:14:38. > :14:47.more of what is happening in reality.
:14:48. > :14:53.The SNP Government has failed for ten years in education. No wonder
:14:54. > :14:57.she has to resort to personal attacks. That is beneath her, that
:14:58. > :15:01.is what we expected Alex Salmond, not the First Minister who is
:15:02. > :15:05.committed to closing the gap. It's not just a lack of progress that is
:15:06. > :15:10.a problem, it is not just the lack of progress, it is actually the fact
:15:11. > :15:14.that things are going backwards. John Swinney spent years cutting
:15:15. > :15:20.education budgets as finance minister. He cut over 5000 teachers,
:15:21. > :15:25.1000 support staff. He cut 150,000 student places in our colleges. He
:15:26. > :15:28.cut university budgets and slashed grants for students. Now John
:15:29. > :15:33.Swinney faces the consequences of John Swinney's own decisions. She
:15:34. > :15:36.was supposed to be the safe pair of hands, but now we know that John
:15:37. > :15:42.Swinney is fast getting a reputation for dropping the ball on education.
:15:43. > :15:44.If teachers and parents can see that the Education Secretary is letting
:15:45. > :15:49.down Scotland's children, why can't this First Minister?
:15:50. > :15:55.Kezia Dugdale has come here, week after week and stood up in that
:15:56. > :15:59.chamber and alleged that spending on our schools was going down. We had
:16:00. > :16:05.figures published this week for the most recent we have these statistics
:16:06. > :16:09.for, showing there was a real terms increase in education spending
:16:10. > :16:13.across our local authority areas. Kezia Dugdale is scaremongering on
:16:14. > :16:18.this. It has been exposed. Take universities, we have record numbers
:16:19. > :16:24.now of young people going into our universities. We are exceeding our
:16:25. > :16:28.manifesto commitment in terms of full-time places in our sector. We
:16:29. > :16:33.are seeing the attainment gap narrow. More people from deprived
:16:34. > :16:36.communities going into university than when we took office. We are
:16:37. > :16:39.seeing progress because of decisions this Government has taken and the
:16:40. > :16:43.investments this Government has made. There's so much more work
:16:44. > :16:47.still to do, which is why we will get on with the reforms in our
:16:48. > :16:50.education system that will make sure we deliver the commitments we have
:16:51. > :16:57.made to young people and parents right across this country.
:16:58. > :17:02.First Minister gave the game away there, she said in the last year the
:17:03. > :17:05.money for education went up. That is supposed to make up for it going
:17:06. > :17:12.down over the nine years that preceded it. The reality is that she
:17:13. > :17:17.has cut ?1.5 billion from local services since 2011. That is the
:17:18. > :17:21.truth she can't escape from. And I wouldn't want the First Minister to
:17:22. > :17:27.say that John Swinney has not been busy. He's launched a frame works,
:17:28. > :17:31.review and an advertising review. He's not done anything to improve
:17:32. > :17:36.our schools. It's not just him as well. Since May, this Government has
:17:37. > :17:43.launched more than 120 consultations and reviews. That's three a week.
:17:44. > :17:46.The enterprise Review has three reviews within it. The health and
:17:47. > :17:52.social care delivery plan, another four within it. There is a review
:17:53. > :17:56.into the review of fracking. This might make sense if this was a new
:17:57. > :18:01.Government. But this SNP Government has been in place for 10 years.
:18:02. > :18:07.Now, I know the First Minister has only one thing on her mind, but when
:18:08. > :18:12.is she going to stop talking about Governing and actually start doing
:18:13. > :18:17.some Governing. Can I say to Kezia Dugdale and I would advise her to
:18:18. > :18:23.listen, this Government will never stop talking to, engaging with and
:18:24. > :18:27.consulting the people of Scotland because actually Labour stopped
:18:28. > :18:31.doing that. And they went from first place to second place in Scottish
:18:32. > :18:36.politics and then from second place to third place and who knows right
:18:37. > :18:43.now where they are going to end up? Let's get back to education. Kezia
:18:44. > :18:48.Dugdale comes here and talks about education funding. Now, I've got a
:18:49. > :18:52.very basic funding for her. If she doesn't think enough money is being
:18:53. > :18:57.spent on schools in council areas across our country, why is it that
:18:58. > :19:02.there are Labour councils right now after spending ten years moaning
:19:03. > :19:07.about it, proposing to freeze the council tax next year? Why aren't
:19:08. > :19:12.they using the power they have spent ten years asking for and refusing to
:19:13. > :19:16.spend more for education? That is a question Kezia Dugdale can't answer.
:19:17. > :19:21.The oh other things Kezia Dugdale doesn't want to talk about, she
:19:22. > :19:24.doesn't want to talk about the ?120 million going direct to head
:19:25. > :19:27.teachers. She doesn't want to talk about the extra resources through
:19:28. > :19:30.the attainment challenge. She doesn't want to talk about the many
:19:31. > :19:35.things that teachers are doing in our schools right now to improve
:19:36. > :19:40.education and close the attainment gap because that doesn't suit the
:19:41. > :19:44.narrative of Kezia Dugdale. I will leave Kezia Dugdale whining on the
:19:45. > :19:46.sidelines and me and this Government will continue to get on with the
:19:47. > :19:57.hard work of improving our schools. Thank you presiding office. The
:19:58. > :20:02.First Minister posed a direct question. For ten years the SNP have
:20:03. > :20:06.said that the council tax is unfair. The question isn't why Labour
:20:07. > :20:16.councils are freezing it, it is why the SNP haven't scrapped it? For ten
:20:17. > :20:20.years we've had Labour councils. We've had Labour SMPs in this
:20:21. > :20:27.chamber saying, end the council tax freeze. So as soon as we end the
:20:28. > :20:31.freeze, what do we have? We have Labour lease leaders in Inverclyde
:20:32. > :20:35.saying they'll become the longest leaders to freeze the council tax.
:20:36. > :20:38.Labour doesn't know what it's doing from one day of the week until the
:20:39. > :20:44.next. That is why they're in the mess they are in. I will continue to
:20:45. > :20:47.make sure we do our job of delivering improvements in our
:20:48. > :20:49.education system, delivering for the parents and the children right
:20:50. > :21:00.across this country. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have
:21:01. > :21:05.been contacted by a local nursery owner, which looks after 133
:21:06. > :21:12.children. So as the First Minister as disappointed as me to hooer they
:21:13. > :21:17.will be hit with a hike of 65%? This will mean inevitable price increases
:21:18. > :21:21.for parents and is preventing mothers from returning to work? We
:21:22. > :21:24.have introduced a business rates release scheme, as the Finance
:21:25. > :21:29.Secretary announced in this chamber a couple of weeks ago, making sure
:21:30. > :21:33.that seven out of ten business premises across our country pay
:21:34. > :21:38.either the same or smaller business rates in the coming year they do
:21:39. > :21:42.now. Five out of ten across our country pay no business rates
:21:43. > :21:45.whatsoever. But the Finance Secretary announced additional
:21:46. > :21:48.relief for the hospitality sector and for office premises in Aberdeen
:21:49. > :21:53.and Aberdeenshire. The reason we did that, of course, was to free up
:21:54. > :21:56.local councils to use resources that they might have to provide any
:21:57. > :22:01.additional support they think is required. Which is why it is so
:22:02. > :22:06.disappointing that Tory councillors in some councils have voted against
:22:07. > :22:11.local rates relief schemes. Instead of coming here asking me that
:22:12. > :22:18.question, perhaps they should direct it to Tory councillors in his own
:22:19. > :22:24.area. To ask the First Minister when the Cabinet will next meet? Tuesday.
:22:25. > :22:29.I think everybody in this chamber and everybody outside the chamber
:22:30. > :22:34.wants Scotland to be successful in closing the attainment gap in our
:22:35. > :22:37.schools. But that gap is not the result of merely one simple
:22:38. > :22:42.phenomenon. It has many complex causes. One of the most significant
:22:43. > :22:46.is the additional support needs that many young people have and because
:22:47. > :22:52.of the way we recognise far more of those needs now and that's welcome,
:22:53. > :22:57.one in four of our young people in Scotland is now recognised as having
:22:58. > :23:01.additional support needs. And yet, evidence given to the education
:23:02. > :23:07.committee here in Parliament this week was shocking about the lack of
:23:08. > :23:11.provision to meet those needs. One in seven reduction in additional
:23:12. > :23:17.support needs teachers since 2010. One in ten reduction in additional
:23:18. > :23:24.support needs assistance. And the shocking suggestion that a teacher
:23:25. > :23:28.in a Scottish school was told that in low of training they need to
:23:29. > :23:34.develop their skills with additional support needs they were told to go
:23:35. > :23:40.away and watch the Big Bang Theory. Was the First Minister as shocked to
:23:41. > :23:42.hear that as I was? I was right to raise the question of additional
:23:43. > :23:46.support needs. He is right to say that we have extended the definition
:23:47. > :23:50.of additional support needs. So we capture more people in that
:23:51. > :23:55.definition to ensure they get the support that they need. And what
:23:56. > :23:58.we've seen, I referred earlier on to statistics published this week,
:23:59. > :24:02.showing increased spending on schools. Within that we saw
:24:03. > :24:06.increased spending in terms of additional learning support. But I
:24:07. > :24:10.do think that there is a fundamental point here, it may be a point of
:24:11. > :24:14.difference between us and I would ask him consider this. Something
:24:15. > :24:17.like 95% of all children with additional support needs are taught
:24:18. > :24:22.in mainstream schools, so we must not see the support they need as
:24:23. > :24:26.just being support that they get from additional support teachers.
:24:27. > :24:28.Every single teacher working in our schools has a responsibility to
:24:29. > :24:34.provide the support that those young people need. It is not simply a case
:24:35. > :24:38.of looking at dedicated additional support teachers. And that's why it
:24:39. > :24:41.is so important. Two things, firstly, spending has increased in
:24:42. > :24:46.the statistics I spoke about, but also that we see in recent figures
:24:47. > :24:52.the number of teachers maintained and slightly increasing as well. The
:24:53. > :24:55.last part of the question was in relation to some evidence given to a
:24:56. > :25:00.committee this week and what he has just narrated there, in terms of the
:25:01. > :25:03.evidence given, would represent in my view practise that is completely
:25:04. > :25:08.unacceptable. But that's why the Scottish
:25:09. > :25:11.Government has supported development of resources for autism, for
:25:12. > :25:17.example, so that teachers do have access to those resources. The
:25:18. > :25:21.autism tool box is there to help teachers and educational support
:25:22. > :25:25.staff meet the #23450eds of pupils with autism. It is important that
:25:26. > :25:31.teachers are aware because the resources are there for the training
:25:32. > :25:35.teachers and it is important they have access to that.
:25:36. > :25:38.It is clear to anyone who has looked at the evidence given to Parliament
:25:39. > :25:43.this week that the specialists working in this field do not feel
:25:44. > :25:47.that teachers have access to the resources they need. The Scottish
:25:48. > :25:51.Government is right to want to recruit more teachers. There have
:25:52. > :25:57.been concerns expressed they will not have the time to develop the
:25:58. > :26:01.skills they need to do the job that our modern education system requires
:26:02. > :26:07.quite rightly of them. It is vital, yes, that all teachers have access
:26:08. > :26:10.to a level of training in additional support needs and the committee
:26:11. > :26:15.heard this week that in the view of many people it is less degree of
:26:16. > :26:20.training than was in place 25 years ago. But we also need to be
:26:21. > :26:24.investing in the specialists who can give the additional support where it
:26:25. > :26:28.is needed. And that specialism needs to be an
:26:29. > :26:32.attractive and well-supported career path for teachers. So, can I ask the
:26:33. > :26:36.First Minister, has she read the evidence that was given to the
:26:37. > :26:41.committee this week? If she hasn't had time yet, will she commit to do
:26:42. > :26:45.so very soon? And will she ensure that the next time we discuss this
:26:46. > :26:49.we're not talking about the level of provision going down, as the level
:26:50. > :26:55.of demand goes up, and teachers being told to go and watch sitcoms?
:26:56. > :26:59.Well, yes, I have looked at the evidence andly study all the
:27:00. > :27:02.evidence -- and I will study all the evidence. If there is further action
:27:03. > :27:06.the Government needs to take, I will make sure working the Englandation
:27:07. > :27:11.secretary, that we do that. I do think it is -- Education Secretary,
:27:12. > :27:15.that we do that. It is important that in terms of the investment I
:27:16. > :27:22.referred to earlier on. And we recognise this is not a case simply
:27:23. > :27:26.of special list teachers, pont -- specialist teachers. This is about
:27:27. > :27:30.making sure all teachers in our schools have the training and are
:27:31. > :27:35.equipped to support children with additional needs. In terms of the
:27:36. > :27:39.comments about teachers being asked to wach The Big Bang Theory, that is
:27:40. > :27:43.totally unacceptable. More than that there is no need for that to happen.
:27:44. > :27:48.I have referred to the resources that are available. This tool box is
:27:49. > :27:51.already very well used. We will, of course, now re-engage with local
:27:52. > :27:56.short authorities to ensure they are aware and promoting it within all of
:27:57. > :28:00.their settings. We, I think, do the right thing in terms of having a
:28:01. > :28:03.wide definition of young people with additional support needs. We also do
:28:04. > :28:06.the right thing in supporting as many of those young people as
:28:07. > :28:11.possible to learn in mainstream education. Patrick Harvey, although
:28:12. > :28:15.we might have some disagreements around the right way, he is right to
:28:16. > :28:19.raise this issue. It is of huge importance and an issue that the
:28:20. > :28:24.Scottish Government will pay close attention to. To ask what issues
:28:25. > :28:27.will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet? Matters of
:28:28. > :28:31.the importance of the people of Scotland. Now she's thinking about
:28:32. > :28:35.the plans for education, will she think again about national testing
:28:36. > :28:43.too? She told me before in this chamber that she would avoid league
:28:44. > :28:47.tables. Has she kept that promise? We'd all publish league tables and
:28:48. > :28:52.we will not publish league tables. I was asked if I would change my mind
:28:53. > :28:56.on national testing? No, I will not. I do not support national testing
:28:57. > :29:02.and we will not introduce national testing. What we are introducing is
:29:03. > :29:08.standardised assessment which will be used to help, well teachers and
:29:09. > :29:15.the professionals understand the definition. I say that he may wish
:29:16. > :29:23.to talk to them to educate himself more. ... About whether or not a
:29:24. > :29:27.young person to meeting the right level of the curriculum for
:29:28. > :29:31.excellence. This is fundamental disagreement we have. It is
:29:32. > :29:36.important that a teacher, as well as all the other judgments they bring
:29:37. > :29:39.to bear, do have an objective basis to form that judgment. We will
:29:40. > :29:44.continue to introduce standardised assessment and we will continue to
:29:45. > :29:48.publish the data. I think all parents and all members of this
:29:49. > :29:53.chamber have a right to see. How are our schools doing in terms of the
:29:54. > :29:57.performance of young people in terms of the required levels? If we don't
:29:58. > :30:03.know, how do we know if we are doing well or need to do better? The worst
:30:04. > :30:07.thing any First Minister could allow to continue is some flying blind
:30:08. > :30:11.situation, where we hope we are doing the right things. I want to
:30:12. > :30:12.make sure we have the information to make sure we are doing the right
:30:13. > :30:21.things. The First Minister is wrong, we
:30:22. > :30:26.already have national school league tables. Every local authority, every
:30:27. > :30:29.school, every test result, it is published by the Scottish
:30:30. > :30:34.Government, her own government has published this information, on
:30:35. > :30:37.experimental information, national school league tables. She promised
:30:38. > :30:42.that would never, ever happen. But that is exactly what is happening.
:30:43. > :30:48.The National Institute for education, they have made it clear,
:30:49. > :30:52.they have said standardised testing crushes creativity both for learners
:30:53. > :30:56.and for teachers, it does not take full account of pupil progress and
:30:57. > :31:00.causes unnecessary stress for the children and young people who are
:31:01. > :31:08.subjected to it. Is it not time that she abandoned the implimentation of
:31:09. > :31:14.national testing, last brought in by Michael Forsyth under Margaret
:31:15. > :31:18.Thatcher's regime? Isn't it about time the First Minister recognised
:31:19. > :31:28.she has got this wrong? No, I think Willie Rennie is one -- 100% wrong
:31:29. > :31:34.on this. I would go further than that, I think he is trying to
:31:35. > :31:38.mislead people, maybe inadvertently, about what is happening to
:31:39. > :31:40.standardised assessment. I know what the Scottish Government is
:31:41. > :31:48.publishing. We are not publishing league tables and we will not
:31:49. > :31:55.publish league tables where we rank schools. What we will continue to
:31:56. > :32:00.publishes information that tells us, school by school, how young people
:32:01. > :32:04.are performing. You know what? I think parents, teachers, I think
:32:05. > :32:07.those of us who are accountable for the education system, they have a
:32:08. > :32:14.right to know that. If we don't know what percentage of our young people
:32:15. > :32:18.are meeting or not meeting the required level of curriculum for
:32:19. > :32:21.excellence, how are we supposed to take the action to put it right if
:32:22. > :32:25.things are not as good as they should be? How are we supposed to
:32:26. > :32:29.take the action before the young person gets further into school,
:32:30. > :32:38.when it becomes too lazy to rectify? I make no apology for this. Those of
:32:39. > :32:42.us who make policy in education need to know that as well. It is not
:32:43. > :32:45.national testing, it is standardised assessment to inform teacher
:32:46. > :32:51.judgment. I said before to Willie Rennie when he raised this, when we
:32:52. > :32:57.had last meeting, Larry Flanagan gave what I thought was the best
:32:58. > :33:01.articulation of the difference between testing and assessments,
:33:02. > :33:06.perhaps Willie Rennie should talk to him. It is information that we
:33:07. > :33:10.should be publishing to allow us to know whether or not we are doing as
:33:11. > :33:13.we should be doing by the young people in this country. I will
:33:14. > :33:22.never, ever make any apology for that. Points of order at the end of
:33:23. > :33:25.First Minister's Questions, please. The First Minister agreed in
:33:26. > :33:29.December with concerns about the openness and transparency of the
:33:30. > :33:32.Scottish police authority. Now a member of that authority has
:33:33. > :33:37.resigned, reportedly because of the reaction to her having dared to
:33:38. > :33:40.raise a dissenting voice about the way it conducts business. At the
:33:41. > :33:43.Public audit committee this morning, Scottish Government official said on
:33:44. > :33:47.this matter that it requires further discussion. Does the First Minister
:33:48. > :33:50.agree that it is not further discussion that is needed, but for
:33:51. > :33:55.the Scottish Government to tell Andrew Flanagan that his damaging
:33:56. > :33:58.governance review is failing police Scotland and failing the public?
:33:59. > :34:02.What will the Scottish Government to to make sure this vital scrutiny
:34:03. > :34:09.body can become a proportionate, accountable and transparent as
:34:10. > :34:12.required? The governance review is about improving governance and
:34:13. > :34:17.accountability and transparency. I am clear that decisions taken by the
:34:18. > :34:19.Scottish police authority should be made in public session and that
:34:20. > :34:24.papers and agendas for those sessions should be available to the
:34:25. > :34:29.public and, indeed, to the media. The member will be aware, or should
:34:30. > :34:34.be aware, that, in January, there was a report that Her Majesty's
:34:35. > :34:40.Inspectorate of cost Abri would inspect the police authority during
:34:41. > :34:44.2017-18. That will be the first such inspection since the STA was
:34:45. > :34:47.established and it will look at not just the efficiency and
:34:48. > :34:51.effectiveness of the body, but also specific areas of focus will be
:34:52. > :34:54.around the transparency and effectiveness of the way they do
:34:55. > :34:58.their business. I hope all members would welcome that. Transparency and
:34:59. > :35:02.accountability is vital. I say again what I have said before, the
:35:03. > :35:09.Scottish police authority must make sure they operate in line with those
:35:10. > :35:13.principles. Today's Times reports not just a Westminster power grab on
:35:14. > :35:18.devolved matters such as farming and fisheries, but a cash grab. Can I
:35:19. > :35:21.ask the First Minister for her reaction to these latest Tory
:35:22. > :35:30.attempts to undermine and we can this Parliament? Well, we do have
:35:31. > :35:34.two important revelations in this morning's editions. She seems to
:35:35. > :35:39.suggest that in areas where Westminster currently has no power
:35:40. > :35:45.over Scotland at all, for example agriculture, they intend to use
:35:46. > :35:48.Brexit to seize such power. A clear undermining of the devolution
:35:49. > :35:53.settlement, if ever there was such a thing. On money, instead of Scotland
:35:54. > :35:58.getting its fair share of any savings that Westminster makes by no
:35:59. > :36:02.longer having to pay EU contributions, Ruth Davidson's
:36:03. > :36:05.suggestion seems to be that the Treasury should keep all of that
:36:06. > :36:12.money and the Scottish Government should be left to raise taxes in
:36:13. > :36:17.order to fund farm payments. That is absolutely outrageous and completely
:36:18. > :36:20.unacceptable. I hope before the day is out the Tories will have
:36:21. > :36:24.clarified this and make sure there will be no power grab and there will
:36:25. > :36:29.be no cash grab on the Scottish Government by the Westminster
:36:30. > :36:33.Government. Now, I really don't know whether this morning's interview was
:36:34. > :36:38.just inept or whether it was a window into the thinking of
:36:39. > :36:43.Westminster, probably both. I tell you what is clear, Westminster has
:36:44. > :36:46.got no intentions of giving new powers to this Parliament. All they
:36:47. > :36:54.want to do is muscle in on the powers we already have.
:36:55. > :36:59.Presiding Officer, last weekend the First Minister was quick to respond
:37:00. > :37:04.to comments made about nationalism by Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London,
:37:05. > :37:08.at the Scottish Labour conference in Perth, who described these as
:37:09. > :37:13.spectacularly ill judged and an insult. Presiding Officer, according
:37:14. > :37:18.to last Friday's Advertiser, the deputy minister of the SNP
:37:19. > :37:23.administration on Ross Council, until recently, employed by the
:37:24. > :37:26.First Minister John Swinney, told councillors the following. Does not
:37:27. > :37:30.reflect on concerns that we have been under the heel of foreign
:37:31. > :37:35.influence and power for 300 years. The island of Britain is no longer
:37:36. > :37:42.subject the actions of quislings who may seek to see smaller cultures
:37:43. > :37:46.extinguished on an island of coffins by redcoats. Given the First
:37:47. > :37:51.Minister's comments about Sadiq Khan's anguish, does she believe the
:37:52. > :37:54.council's comments are appropriate, order she apply one standard to
:37:55. > :38:00.members of other parties and a different standard to members of her
:38:01. > :38:04.own? I apply the same standard to everybody. Let me be clear, I
:38:05. > :38:11.condemn any comments or any language, no matter who it is from,
:38:12. > :38:17.that is in any way, shape or form racist or anti-English, in any way
:38:18. > :38:21.seeks to divide people on the basis of ethnicity. That is not what I
:38:22. > :38:27.party or movement, the movement I am part of, is for all represents. Let
:38:28. > :38:32.me also say this, I ask people to reflect on this quite carefully.
:38:33. > :38:36.Right now, in the United Kingdom, the SNP, the Scottish Government and
:38:37. > :38:43.the wider independence movement is right now amongst the loudest voices
:38:44. > :38:50.in the UK for diversity, tolerance, freedom of movement, the loudest
:38:51. > :38:55.voices standing up for the benefits of migration. We still have a Tory
:38:56. > :38:59.government that will not guarantee the rights of EU nationals to live
:39:00. > :39:02.here. That is what it disgraceful. I will practice the values that I hold
:39:03. > :39:08.dear and I would expect everybody to do likewise.
:39:09. > :39:15.I didn't hear you, right. I would like to ask the First Minister what
:39:16. > :39:18.measures the Scottish Government will take to ensure there is
:39:19. > :39:23.appropriate social housing to meet the requirements of disabled,
:39:24. > :39:27.vulnerable and frail older people. We are committed to expanding social
:39:28. > :39:34.housing in communities across Scotland. That is why 35,000 of our
:39:35. > :39:38.50,000 affordable homes target will be for rent. Good housing is
:39:39. > :39:42.important for disabled or frail older people, and it will match the
:39:43. > :39:52.local council strategies. We will shortly publish a strategy that will
:39:53. > :39:56.take account of different needs and demographics, as well as improving
:39:57. > :39:59.access to suitable housing. While the integration of health and social
:40:00. > :40:04.care to help people stay at home instead of hospital is welcome, it
:40:05. > :40:08.hits the buffers if appropriate housing is in short supply.
:40:09. > :40:12.Notwithstanding what the First Minister has just said, is she aware
:40:13. > :40:18.of recent reports highlighting the dearth of sheltered housing,
:40:19. > :40:22.especially for the frail elderly, calling for a commission to consider
:40:23. > :40:26.and report on long-term funding and the provision of supported
:40:27. > :40:33.accommodation. Will the First Minister committed to that? I think
:40:34. > :40:36.it is important that we have that strategic approach in place, but
:40:37. > :40:39.also that we committed to sustainable funding as well. We
:40:40. > :40:44.share the concerns that the housing sector has right now about UK
:40:45. > :40:48.Government changes to funding for supported accommodation. That is
:40:49. > :40:52.part of a broader approach to cuts that is having a considerable impact
:40:53. > :40:57.on people across the country. We will very carefully consider the
:40:58. > :40:59.recently published report on the effective supply of supported
:41:00. > :41:02.housing and we will look at recommendations, including setting
:41:03. > :41:05.up a commission to make sure older people can access the support they
:41:06. > :41:09.need. We are absolutely committed to working with the sector to protect
:41:10. > :41:12.the most vulnerable and also ensure that supported accommodation is put
:41:13. > :41:22.on a sustainable and secure financial footing. To ask the First
:41:23. > :41:25.Minister what the responses to reports that sports funding is set
:41:26. > :41:31.for a 20% reduction over three years. It has been described as
:41:32. > :41:35.Sports Scotland as heartbreaking. The budget has not been set beyond
:41:36. > :41:43.2017-18. But I am happy to confirm we have no plans to reduce it by 20%
:41:44. > :41:48.by 2020-20. We are presenting Sport Scotland with as much flux ability
:41:49. > :41:52.as possible, within what we accept a tight settlement. We want to give
:41:53. > :41:56.them flexibility, not least in light of projected reductions in lottery
:41:57. > :41:59.funding in coming years. The sports minister has written to the UK
:42:00. > :42:05.Government seeking to address that. I hope he will have support in doing
:42:06. > :42:08.so. Beyond the core sport budget, we work to increase support for active
:42:09. > :42:12.living. For example, since 2010 we have increased the budget for active
:42:13. > :42:23.travel to encourage more walking and cycling by 116%, up to ?39.2 million
:42:24. > :42:26.in 2017. We will continue to deliver the policies and funding to support
:42:27. > :42:33.people to live as healthily and actively as possible. This
:42:34. > :42:38.decimation of the sports budget, along with a major cut in council
:42:39. > :42:41.funding, means more of those in challenging circumstances will find
:42:42. > :42:45.sport activity out of their reach. People are not just entries on Derek
:42:46. > :42:49.Mackay's balance sheet. Attempting to save money this way delivers
:42:50. > :42:52.outcomes requiring inventions far costlier than the savings the
:42:53. > :42:57.government are attempting to make. This policy will not tackle health
:42:58. > :43:00.inequality. It will drive it. Can I respectfully ask the First Minister,
:43:01. > :43:05.will she please take another look at this issue? The potential damage to
:43:06. > :43:10.sport, activity, the third sector and communities will take years to
:43:11. > :43:13.repair. We will continue to work with sports Scotland, governing
:43:14. > :43:16.bodies and everybody with an interest in sport and active living,
:43:17. > :43:31.to make sure that we are making the right investments.
:43:32. > :43:35.We have invested heavily in sport over recent years and we will
:43:36. > :43:37.continue to invest heavily in sport, not just at the elite end of sport,
:43:38. > :43:40.but in community and grass-roots sport as well. That is why the
:43:41. > :43:42.legacy of the Commonwealth Games, a community hub has been established
:43:43. > :43:45.in many parts of Scotland, it was so vitally important. We will also
:43:46. > :43:47.invest in wider landscape, to ensure that we are promoting active travel,
:43:48. > :43:50.encouraging people to walk more. One of the things that is most fantastic
:43:51. > :43:52.about what we are doing in schools right now is supporting schools to
:43:53. > :43:57.have the daily mile. We will continue to make sure we work with
:43:58. > :44:00.all of those with an interest, to support those aspirations. I would
:44:01. > :44:08.simply say to Brian Whittle, I would be equally respectful, we are seeing
:44:09. > :44:14.real terms cut in our budget because of decisions taken at Westminster.
:44:15. > :44:17.In this Parliament, we also have a situation that, when we made a
:44:18. > :44:21.different decision on the higher rate of tax to try to protect public
:44:22. > :44:29.services, the Conservatives opposed that as well. Instead, they wanted
:44:30. > :44:33.to see us give a hefty tax cut to top earners. It is not a week after
:44:34. > :44:36.week for Tories to come to the chamber and request more spending on
:44:37. > :44:41.this, that and the other if they are also asking us to deliver tax cuts
:44:42. > :44:45.for the wealthiest in our society. I think it is about time they decided
:44:46. > :44:48.what their position actually was. When they decide that, they will
:44:49. > :44:58.have a bit more credibility raising these issues in this chamber. To ask
:44:59. > :45:01.the First Minister how many children in the measures in the poverty Bill
:45:02. > :45:11.will be lifted out of poverty by May 2021? It will require ministers to
:45:12. > :45:15.meet four targets, fewer than 10% of children living in relative poverty,
:45:16. > :45:20.fewer than 5% in absolute poverty, fewer than 5% in combined low income
:45:21. > :45:23.and material deprivation and fewer than 5% of children in persistent
:45:24. > :45:27.poverty. The bill will make Scotland the only part of the UK with
:45:28. > :45:32.statutory targets to reduce and ultimately eradicate child poverty.
:45:33. > :45:35.However, this is an important point, it is not targeting themselves that
:45:36. > :45:42.will reduce child poverty, it is the policy and action week take. That is
:45:43. > :45:45.why the bill also requires the government to have specific measures
:45:46. > :45:46.to lift children out of poverty. The first bill will be published next
:45:47. > :45:57.year and updated every five years. We do need action and not just
:45:58. > :46:01.targets. Labour lifted 125,000 children in Scotland out of poverty
:46:02. > :46:05.in Government, by lifting incomes, not just by setting targets. We are
:46:06. > :46:11.ready to make the child poverty bill a success. That is why we backed the
:46:12. > :46:15.calls by the poverty action group to top up child benefit for families in
:46:16. > :46:19.Scotland and to take thousands of kids out of poverty. And I think if
:46:20. > :46:23.the Scottish Government has any hope of making its child poverty bill a
:46:24. > :46:27.success, it has to give that bill some teeth and start using the
:46:28. > :46:32.powers of this Parliament. So, can I ask the First Minister, will the
:46:33. > :46:37.Government support child pove Child Poverty Action Group and the call to
:46:38. > :46:43.top up child benefit and do it by making sure the bill can deliver
:46:44. > :46:48.that increase now? Firstly, we will always seek to have
:46:49. > :46:53.a close dialogue with the Child Poverty Action Group. It was them
:46:54. > :46:58.among other organisations organisations that asks us to extend
:46:59. > :47:02.the provision of free school meals. I seem to remember Labour voted
:47:03. > :47:05.against in this chamber. We have brought forward plans to use the
:47:06. > :47:10.additional powers that will come to this Parliament to introduce a best
:47:11. > :47:15.start grant, where we will target resources on low income families.
:47:16. > :47:20.Giving an enhanced grant to parents when a child is born. For every
:47:21. > :47:24.child that is born, not just for the first child and then payments during
:47:25. > :47:28.that child's childhood when they go to nursery and again to school. We
:47:29. > :47:32.have set out clear plans about how we're going to increase the incomes
:47:33. > :47:37.of those families with children who most need it. Of course we'll
:47:38. > :47:40.continue to talk to others. The action group, other organisations
:47:41. > :47:43.and interests across this chamber about what further action we can
:47:44. > :47:49.take to tackle child poverty. I hope this is an area where we can all
:47:50. > :47:51.agree that, and I do agree with Mark grif grif that targets are
:47:52. > :47:56.important. It is important they are in this bill. It is the policies we
:47:57. > :47:59.introduce that will make the biggest difference.
:48:00. > :48:09.There we have it. The close of First Minister's questions. Dominated by
:48:10. > :48:15.education. It was nursery education, earlier provision in schools. Let's
:48:16. > :48:20.chew over, I think that was a phase used there - chew over. Let's go
:48:21. > :48:25.with Ruth Davidson's first of all. She was saying the education review
:48:26. > :48:28.is being delayed. The education bill is being delayed and Nicola Sturgeon
:48:29. > :48:33.arguing sensibly, taking a wider look. To quote a former Prime
:48:34. > :48:38.Minister, it was education, education, education today. When you
:48:39. > :48:43.look at what Ruth Davidson was going on about, the governance review is
:48:44. > :48:47.about who is best to look after our schools. Who is best to take the
:48:48. > :48:56.decision. This is close to the Tory hearts ba u they want... This the
:48:57. > :49:01.point. Ruth Davidson's point was why haven't you had the results? She
:49:02. > :49:04.touched on one thing which was important, the local council
:49:05. > :49:09.elections are coming up and she suggested this had been shelved just
:49:10. > :49:12.to get through the council elections because a lot of councillors will
:49:13. > :49:17.not want to give power to schools. The direction of travel, to be
:49:18. > :49:21.clear, is empowering schools ?120 million to the head teachers and
:49:22. > :49:26.perhaps further after the review. It is important. There was a question
:49:27. > :49:30.about the SNP centralising and there was Nicola Sturgeon coming back
:49:31. > :49:36.saying we are giving this direct to head teachers, what are you
:49:37. > :49:40.complaining about? It is controversial this idea of giving
:49:41. > :49:44.more to head teachers not councils. It will not be popular with
:49:45. > :49:48.everyone, including some teachers. Teaching unions are saying, we are
:49:49. > :49:52.not accountants. This will be an extra burden on teachers and head
:49:53. > :49:57.teachers. It is not necessarily welcomed even in schools. The
:49:58. > :50:03.education brief is always a stinker. John Swinney was given it because he
:50:04. > :50:08.is the tough guy. It is not just a stinker. Usually
:50:09. > :50:11.you are to put it into the context of Nicola Sturgeon saying, judge me
:50:12. > :50:16.on the educational performance of this Government. She's not just put
:50:17. > :50:20.John Swinney, her most trusted minister in charge, she says we have
:50:21. > :50:23.to make progress, which is why all these questions came out on it
:50:24. > :50:25.today. The opposition feel that the Government is vulnerable on this.
:50:26. > :50:34.Because they see the progress, as far as they can see it, is not made.
:50:35. > :50:38.Substantial interrogation from the leader about kids who require
:50:39. > :50:43.additional support? The headline is one head teacher was told to go and
:50:44. > :50:51.watch The Big Bang Theory. It is a good theory. Asperger's. There's
:50:52. > :50:57.been a rise in the number of children with additional support
:50:58. > :51:01.needs. Nicola Sturgeon saying, right to raise the question, but resources
:51:02. > :51:07.were being targeted and teachers more generally had to assist. She
:51:08. > :51:10.was looking beyond the numbers of additional support need teachers,
:51:11. > :51:15.but looking at the widing teaching staff. Obviously then that question
:51:16. > :51:19.of specific training in dealing with additional support needs is more
:51:20. > :51:23.important if it is not specialist teachers dealing with it, but all
:51:24. > :51:27.the teachers. There are two or three topics he makes his own and league
:51:28. > :51:33.tables is what he's pursued again and again. Sharp exchanges there. Sc
:51:34. > :51:37.He has. I don't think he'll get any change from Nicola Sturgeon on this.
:51:38. > :51:41.She was forthright in her defence of what she insists is not national
:51:42. > :51:45.testing. She calls it standardised assessment. She says the Government
:51:46. > :51:49.are not producing league tables. Technically she is right. They are
:51:50. > :52:00.providing information that others can use to make league takes.
:52:01. > :52:06.I see Kezia Dugdale coming down the stairs there. The tone between her
:52:07. > :52:12.and Nicola Sturgeon was... Id did it nasty at times. She said this is not
:52:13. > :52:18.worthy of you, this is of Alex Salmond.
:52:19. > :52:21.There was some below the belt punches there. It is unusual.
:52:22. > :52:26.Although they disagree on things, there tends to be a certain amount
:52:27. > :52:30.of respect. Kezia Dugdale rose slowly at one point as if she was
:52:31. > :52:35.preparing an aggressive attack. There were not punches thrown, but
:52:36. > :52:42.it was not far off it. What did you make of that? It was very fiery and
:52:43. > :52:48.feisty. It is unusual to get such a level of such personal animosity. It
:52:49. > :52:54.shows perhaps how detailed and how sharp those accusations are that the
:52:55. > :52:58.opposition parties that... She feels she had to respond in such a sharp
:52:59. > :53:03.way. We will come back to you in a wee second. Hanging over all of it
:53:04. > :53:08.is always the question of Brexit and a topic coming to the fore this
:53:09. > :53:13.week, we had Nicola Sturgeon, the elect whur saying it is -- lecture,
:53:14. > :53:17.saying it is almost a necessity there should be a further
:53:18. > :53:19.independence referendum. We have the Conservative conference this
:53:20. > :53:24.weekend, where we will get the opposite viewpoint. I took the
:53:25. > :53:30.chance to speak to a Tory and nationalist SNP whether there was a
:53:31. > :53:34.mandate. I put that question to Richard Lockhead. Absolutely. We
:53:35. > :53:37.were elected in 2016 on a manifesto that said there was a material
:53:38. > :53:42.change in circumstances. There could be another referendum in Scotland.
:53:43. > :53:47.It could be taken forward by the SNP. We have a democratic mandate to
:53:48. > :53:50.hold a referendum. Given the EU referendum is the biggest material
:53:51. > :53:54.change since the Second World War, it gives a mandate if the
:53:55. > :53:58.negotiations don't go well in the next few months. I do not agree with
:53:59. > :54:02.anything that Richard said there. I don't thid there's any justification
:54:03. > :54:07.for a second independence referendum. I don't think there'd a
:54:08. > :54:11.need or any mandate for a second referendum. Mandate is different
:54:12. > :54:20.from justification. Justification means you don't want it to happen.
:54:21. > :54:24.They don't have an entitlement. Independence and the future of the
:54:25. > :54:27.union, the constitution, these are matters reserved to the United
:54:28. > :54:33.Kingdom Parliament. The way in which we did it in 2014 was exemplary.
:54:34. > :54:38.Both Governments came together to negotiate in agreement going
:54:39. > :54:43.forward. Richard, you look unhappy. I am sure the Conservative Party in
:54:44. > :54:49.the past have said it is up to the people of Scotland to decide their
:54:50. > :54:52.own constitutional future. The majority of SNPs support
:54:53. > :54:57.independence the SMPs and we have a... Do you accept you have to get
:54:58. > :55:03.the agreement of the UK Government and Parliament because it is a
:55:04. > :55:05.matter reserved under the 1998 act? The Scottish Government have the
:55:06. > :55:10.opportunity to speak to the UK Government. It would be a moral
:55:11. > :55:16.obligation to accept the people of Scotland. We were elected on
:55:17. > :55:21.manifesto... EU is the biggest one since the Second World War. We've
:55:22. > :55:25.had an independence referendum. That referendum was held on the basis it
:55:26. > :55:30.was a once in a lifetime if not once in a generation event. Nicola
:55:31. > :55:34.Sturgeon has said many times, even before, even since Brexit, she will
:55:35. > :55:39.not call a second independence referendum until it is clear that
:55:40. > :55:44.public opinion has changed. Public opinion is very clearly... During
:55:45. > :55:48.that 2014 referendum, people in Scotland were told the way to secure
:55:49. > :55:52.membership of the European Union was to stay in the United Kingdom. If we
:55:53. > :55:57.voted yes, we would be out of the European Union now. The way to
:55:58. > :56:02.secure it was to stay in. We were sold a better from the Better
:56:03. > :56:06.Together campaign that if we voted no in the independence referendum we
:56:07. > :56:11.would stay in Europe. Here we are, Scotland voted no in 2014 and we are
:56:12. > :56:17.being taken out of Europe against our opinion. The Prime Minister has
:56:18. > :56:22.made it plain we want the freest access to the single market. If
:56:23. > :56:25.Richard would take a step back, think about what the Scottish and
:56:26. > :56:32.the British Government are saying, the two positions are 95% the same.
:56:33. > :56:36.Yet the SNP, when we have an opportunity to dial it down or
:56:37. > :56:42.ratchet it up, they ratchet it up. Theresa May said we were a
:56:43. > :56:47.partnership of equals. She would listen, where 62% voted to stay. She
:56:48. > :56:53.stood up and delivered a speech saying we are leaving the single
:56:54. > :56:56.market. This is completely untrue. Having the fully possible access,
:56:57. > :57:03.having the access is not hard Brexit. If a hard Brexit happened no
:57:04. > :57:08.access... In a word each. Will there be a referendum in 2018? Every day
:57:09. > :57:12.goes by we are closer towards the cast-iron case for another
:57:13. > :57:16.referendum. There is joo no need for it and no justification for it and
:57:17. > :57:22.no mandate for it. I told you it was a lively topic. Lively discussion
:57:23. > :57:25.there. I am still joined by my two colleagues. Do you think there'll be
:57:26. > :57:29.a referendum in the near future? Yes. I think there. It is very
:57:30. > :57:33.difficult to see how Nicola Sturgeon gets out of the position she's in.
:57:34. > :57:36.She's put a whole lot of recommendations to the UK
:57:37. > :57:40.Government. It seems as if the recommendations will be dismissed.
:57:41. > :57:44.If they are Taking their time, aren't they? They are taking their
:57:45. > :57:49.time. From everything that she has said, by inching ever closer, she
:57:50. > :57:52.has no choice. If it goes the way we think with the UK Government, she'll
:57:53. > :57:55.have to call one probably next year. Do you think she's not particularly
:57:56. > :58:00.keen to do that? I don't think she wants to be pushed into a corner in
:58:01. > :58:07.timing. I think she really, it is inevitable now she'll have to call
:58:08. > :58:11.it at some point. There are some within the nationalist camp saying,
:58:12. > :58:15.do it after Brexit? Absolutely. I think she may be pushed to try and
:58:16. > :58:18.call it earlier. I am not sure she'll get permission to call it
:58:19. > :58:25.that early. You think they might turn it down? My prediction will be
:58:26. > :58:29.that Theresa May will say, yes, you can have it, but not yet. I would be
:58:30. > :58:34.surprised if it happens before 2020. There were limits set in it. In
:58:35. > :58:38.2014, it was one question by the end of 2014, wasn't it? The UK
:58:39. > :58:41.Government are in control of this. My feeling is that Theresa May has
:58:42. > :58:46.got her mind elsewhere, let's say. Thank you both very much indeed. My
:58:47. > :58:49.mind perhaps shifts towards the Conservative conference, which is
:58:50. > :58:53.due at the weekend. I will be there to bring you all the news. From me
:58:54. > :58:57.and from Holyrood, goodbye.