:00:17. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:25. > :00:26.programme: A massive rise in voter registration ahead of the
:00:27. > :00:30.referendum, but the Electoral Commission says there's still work
:00:31. > :00:34.to do to sign up younger people. Our live debate in the chamber today
:00:35. > :00:40.- the Liberal Democrats call for a reform of stop and search powers
:00:41. > :00:43.used by the police. And here at Westminster, MPs are
:00:44. > :00:47.discussing plans to freeze energy prices, as the row over the sale of
:00:48. > :00:51.the Royal Mail rumbles on. More on all those stories coming up
:00:52. > :00:53.and we'll have analysis from our political commentator for the
:00:54. > :00:57.afternoon, Hamish Macdonell. First let's head straight to Parliament
:00:58. > :01:01.for more on that stop and search debate. As the MSPs have to head to
:01:02. > :01:09.the chamber shortly, Glenn Campbell is standing by with some guests.
:01:10. > :01:12.Hello and welcome to Holyrood for Wednesday afternoon's business in
:01:13. > :01:18.the Chamber which, as you have indicated, is dominated by a Liberal
:01:19. > :01:23.Democrat debate on the use of stop and search, a policing tactic which,
:01:24. > :01:28.for some, is controversial. Let's discuss that with our Wednesday
:01:29. > :01:32.political panel. Starting off with Liam McArthur, who is the Liberal
:01:33. > :01:37.Democrat MSP. Why have you brought this debate today? What we have seen
:01:38. > :01:44.is a dramatic rise in the use of stop and search, not just those
:01:45. > :01:49.under statutory provisions, which essentially on the basis of some
:01:50. > :01:51.suspicion of wrongdoing, but so-called voluntary stop and search
:01:52. > :01:57.which is being used extensively where those who are stopped and
:01:58. > :02:02.searched are not aware, made aware of the reasons for it. What is your
:02:03. > :02:06.approach? What we have seen is that this appears to be unregulated. The
:02:07. > :02:09.concerns have been raised by the Human Rights Commissioner to that
:02:10. > :02:13.effect. What we are seeing is in the face of that dramatic rise
:02:14. > :02:16.suggestions that somehow this is linked to a fall in crime, but no
:02:17. > :02:20.evidence to suggest that is the case. I think what we need to see is
:02:21. > :02:27.those elements of stop and search more tightly regulated so there is a
:02:28. > :02:31.cause for it and that the recording of those incidents happens in a far
:02:32. > :02:35.more detailed fashion. Police Scotland said in the first ten
:02:36. > :02:41.months of the new nationwide force they conducted more than 500,000 of
:02:42. > :02:44.these services and 70%-plus were conducted on the consensual basis,
:02:45. > :02:48.without any reasonable suspicion. That is something that police in
:02:49. > :02:52.England cannot do, Margaret Mitchell. Why should police in
:02:53. > :02:55.Scotland be allowed to do so? It is concerned there were four times as
:02:56. > :02:59.many stop and searchs in Scotland than there are in England. I think
:03:00. > :03:04.this is an excellent tool for the police to have, if used
:03:05. > :03:09.proportionately. It can be very useful for confiscating weapons,
:03:10. > :03:14.knives, drugs, alcohol, stolen property. The evidence is concerning
:03:15. > :03:19.on two fronts: The Chief Constable himself has said that the figures
:03:20. > :03:24.are made up. There are huge numbers being conducted on a basis where
:03:25. > :03:28.consent is required when people aren't informed they have the right
:03:29. > :03:32.to refuse. Young people are being targeted so there is a real danger
:03:33. > :03:38.this is counterproductive and there is no relation between deterrent
:03:39. > :03:44.stop and searchs and a reduction in crime. The motion today highlights
:03:45. > :03:49.these concerns. Sandra White, in 2010, more than 500 of these
:03:50. > :03:52.searches were carried out on youngsters aged ten and under. Are
:03:53. > :04:00.you comfortable with that? We have to look at the facts and the
:04:01. > :04:05.figures. Crime is at a 39-year low. 60% reduction in the crimes
:04:06. > :04:10.committed by people carrying offensive weapons. I think Liam
:04:11. > :04:14.should look to his own party also. His past Justice Minister said the
:04:15. > :04:20.stop and search was very effective. We have to look at that also. I
:04:21. > :04:27.think you mentioned yourself, 70% were carried out conseence yully. --
:04:28. > :04:31.consensually. Margaret has said it is a good thing. Margaret has said
:04:32. > :04:38.people don't necessarily know that they can say that they don't want to
:04:39. > :04:41.be searched? We also have to look at the fact there is going to be a
:04:42. > :04:47.review going on... Police authorities are looking at that?
:04:48. > :04:52.Yes. That is the proper way to go about it. Is that not the proper way
:04:53. > :04:57.rather than having a debate about it and making sensationalism? Graeme
:04:58. > :05:02.Pearson, you have a background in this area and, presumably, deployed
:05:03. > :05:07.officers to carry out searches in statutory and non-statutory basis? I
:05:08. > :05:10.have done it myself. Is it being used appropriately? That is what we
:05:11. > :05:14.don't know. The Chief Constable has acknowledged that not all searches
:05:15. > :05:18.have been properly recorded and he thinks some have been made up. The
:05:19. > :05:22.General Secretary to the Federation representing those officers who do
:05:23. > :05:25.the searches says that there is no way that 500,000 people have been
:05:26. > :05:29.searched. We need to find out what is going on, who is approving it,
:05:30. > :05:33.are we satisfied it is being done properly and is it proportionate? We
:05:34. > :05:36.don't know. What is your view, though, from the information and the
:05:37. > :05:41.evidence that has been presented, what is your view? Well, it seems if
:05:42. > :05:46.you have a 39-year low in crime, you have 500,000 fewer young people in
:05:47. > :05:49.Scotland than were here 20 years ago. That seems to be
:05:50. > :05:54.disproportionate to the requirement. What I would like to know is has
:05:55. > :05:58.Police Scotland looked at the way they enforce the issue of stop and
:05:59. > :06:02.search? Are they satisfied it's being done properly? We don't have
:06:03. > :06:07.the answer to that. There is also a protective element in this also. I
:06:08. > :06:11.have been out with the police in Glasgow, stop and search of some
:06:12. > :06:15.young people found alcohol on them. These people weren't prosecuted.
:06:16. > :06:23.They were taken home to their parents. 70% of people... We are
:06:24. > :06:30.looking at a review. Don't all talk at once. What confuses me about the
:06:31. > :06:34.statistics is that we have one in five searches resulting in a
:06:35. > :06:39.positive detection, be that alcohol or an offensive weapon, or something
:06:40. > :06:44.else that they shouldn't have. Yes. The police say these searches are
:06:45. > :06:50.carried out on an evidence-led basis. If that is the case, why is
:06:51. > :06:54.the hit rate so low? You are talking about reported. 70% of that is
:06:55. > :07:00.consensual. I'm talking about kids who have been searched... I'm
:07:01. > :07:06.talking about all the searches in total. The hit rate is one in five.
:07:07. > :07:10.The police say they are deploying an evidence-led approach. How can that
:07:11. > :07:16.be the case? I would assume the review would look into that. The
:07:17. > :07:19.Scottish police - let me finish - the Scottish Police Federation are
:07:20. > :07:28.the proper authority to do that. I would assume that the review will
:07:29. > :07:33.look into that. We have seen this is being completely unregulated. We
:07:34. > :07:37.have seen an explosion in the number of stop and searchs that are not
:07:38. > :07:42.regulated in a way that is happening south of the border. Sandra says...
:07:43. > :07:47.Why does that matter? If we have got a crime level that is the lowest for
:07:48. > :07:54.30-odd years? Crime is coming down south of the border as well. Not to
:07:55. > :07:58.that extent. You don't know that either? We don't have the evidence
:07:59. > :08:01.to prove that. At the same time, what we have is something that is
:08:02. > :08:06.completely unregulated. To be honest, there is always going to be
:08:07. > :08:11.a balance to be struck here. You will come up with something. We need
:08:12. > :08:15.to have this better regulated. Margaret Mitchell, this is a tactic
:08:16. > :08:20.which is associated particularly with Strathclyde, but now seems to
:08:21. > :08:28.be being used all over Scotland. Is this tactic equally appropriate in
:08:29. > :08:31.Dingwall as in Glasgow? Clearly not. There is some great resentment from
:08:32. > :08:34.the rank-and-file that they are being asked to do that. These
:08:35. > :08:40.numbers are going to this, they are being made up, either officers are
:08:41. > :08:45.being asked to target and their complaint is... The police have said
:08:46. > :08:48.that there is no targeting? But the rank-and-file officers are telling
:08:49. > :08:56.us that isn't necessarily the case. They deeply resent taking time away
:08:57. > :09:04.from preventative policing to - and proactive policing... If you find
:09:05. > :09:08.weapons... Alienates young people who are stopped for no apparent
:09:09. > :09:15.reason when there is no link between the deterrent stop and searchs...
:09:16. > :09:18.Surely a 60% reduction in crimes involving offensive weapons, is that
:09:19. > :09:22.not something that is good to protect the public? Let's look at
:09:23. > :09:26.their part in this. Why can't the police prove it? I'm sure the review
:09:27. > :09:30.will bring that out. I'm sure the review will bring that out. We have
:09:31. > :09:35.talked about communities being made safe. We are all agreed, communities
:09:36. > :09:40.are being made safe. I want to ask the former policeman finally, do you
:09:41. > :09:43.think it is time to stop these voluntary or consensual searches in
:09:44. > :09:46.Scotland should the police always have reasonable suspicion? I don't
:09:47. > :09:51.think it is time to stop that element of it. What I do know is the
:09:52. > :09:57.Chief Constable is already warning that crime is on the rise. So, stop
:09:58. > :10:03.and search and crime stats aren't necessarily connected. Thank you all
:10:04. > :10:07.very much. I better let you get into the Chamber for the debate. Sandra
:10:08. > :10:12.White was indicated there is a review of this policy, the use of
:10:13. > :10:16.this policy across Scotland, by the new Scottish Police Authority which
:10:17. > :10:20.takes an overview of the work of Police Scotland and its Chief
:10:21. > :10:25.Constable. STUDIO: Thank you very much.
:10:26. > :10:27.Let's speak now to our political commentator for the afternoon,
:10:28. > :10:34.Hamish Macdonell. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. Looking at
:10:35. > :10:39.the stop and search issue, the sheer number of these stops and searches,
:10:40. > :10:43.incredible, more than 500,000? I think if you look at the numbers,
:10:44. > :10:50.anybody would look at them and think what is going on here. 520,000 stop
:10:51. > :10:54.and searchs in eight months. That is about 2,000 a day. Now, I think
:10:55. > :10:57.everybody appreciates that there is not the whole of the population that
:10:58. > :11:01.is being targeted here. There will be a small number, mainly young
:11:02. > :11:04.people, that the police are targeting. Some of these figures may
:11:05. > :11:08.be made up. If three-quarters of them are true, that is a very big
:11:09. > :11:11.number. I think the Liberal Democrats have done very well to
:11:12. > :11:15.raise this issue in the Parliament and bring it up to the political
:11:16. > :11:20.agenda and say, look, what is going on? Why are they spending so much
:11:21. > :11:24.time on this? This was coming up at Conference. They have highlighted
:11:25. > :11:29.this in their debate. Why are they spending so much time on this
:11:30. > :11:32.particular issue? This is old-fashioned liberalism. This is
:11:33. > :11:36.the party going back to its liberal roots where they have concern for
:11:37. > :11:40.the issue of civil liberties. There is a very important issue here which
:11:41. > :11:48.is that if you have weapons that the police can use to cut crime, that's
:11:49. > :11:53.fine. But there is a balance between those powers and infringing on civil
:11:54. > :11:56.liberties, particularly if some people are being targeted again and
:11:57. > :12:02.again when they don't know the law and don't know they can say no. OK.
:12:03. > :12:06.This is a big policy issue. Let's take a minute to look at the
:12:07. > :12:13.referendum situation. Not a good week for the "no" campaign.
:12:14. > :12:18.Interesting intervention today from the Department of Economics at
:12:19. > :12:21.Glasgow University today? Yes, we seem to be obsessed on this issue of
:12:22. > :12:28.the currency. The issue of the currency is going to dominate right
:12:29. > :12:31.the way through into September. There have been all sorts of stories
:12:32. > :12:35.of Tory Ministers saying this and that and perhaps going against the
:12:36. > :12:38.official line. There's been reports of splits and Lib Dems having a go
:12:39. > :12:45.at Labour and all that sort of thing. It's not been very good for
:12:46. > :12:48.Better Together. Today, we had this Professor saying he thinks that a
:12:49. > :12:51.currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of
:12:52. > :12:56.the UK would not only work but would be in the best interests of both
:12:57. > :13:00.parties. That, again, tends to cast doubt on the UK Government's firm
:13:01. > :13:03.line that it wouldn't work. OK. Thank you very much. Back with you
:13:04. > :13:07.later. Let's head to the chamber now for
:13:08. > :13:11.the live debate we mentioned earlier - the Lib Dems calling for a change
:13:12. > :13:15.to stop and search laws. The use of stop and search has risen many times
:13:16. > :13:23.over. Since the formation of Police Scotland, this increase has been
:13:24. > :13:26.extended. A Liberal Democrat Freedom of Information Request uncovered an
:13:27. > :13:36.unprecedented surge in the use of the tactic in every other region. A
:13:37. > :13:43.516% increase year on year in Fife during the first four months of
:13:44. > :13:46.Police Scotland. So, why does this warrant the attentions of this
:13:47. > :13:51.Parliament? Why should we worry about the pervasive deployment of
:13:52. > :13:55.this tactic throughout Scotland if, as the Police and Justice Secretary
:13:56. > :13:59.claim, it is keeping young people safe? It should worry us because
:14:00. > :14:02.there is no legal basis for three-quarters of the searches
:14:03. > :14:06.conducted in Scotland. All of those that are non-statutory. The power to
:14:07. > :14:11.search an individual without legal cause has been appropriated by the
:14:12. > :14:16.police without due parliamentary scrutiny or approval. I think that
:14:17. > :14:21.is intolerable and immature democracy.
:14:22. > :14:28.In the absence of codification, police are performing searches with
:14:29. > :14:32.no suspicion. There is no requirement to tell people they have
:14:33. > :14:37.a right to refuse and without this any consent acquired is surely ill
:14:38. > :14:40.informed. It is to all intents and purposes a command based on
:14:41. > :14:44.exploiting the power gap between the officer and other subjects. No
:14:45. > :14:51.authority has been able to explain to me how the 500 children under ten
:14:52. > :14:57.who were stopped and searched are qualified to give consent. Of the
:14:58. > :15:03.dozens children aged seven or younger that are being searched. The
:15:04. > :15:06.police do not record any details if a search is unsuccessful as occurs
:15:07. > :15:17.four out of five times. Nor does the subject given a written reference of
:15:18. > :15:20.the search. Such procedures have letter Alan Miller describing the
:15:21. > :15:32.practice as largely unregulated and I accountable. It renders challenge
:15:33. > :15:36.to the Human Rights Act that it is the lawful and properly documented.
:15:37. > :15:39.Discrepancies between how the tactic is employed around Scotland means
:15:40. > :15:46.there are disparities in access to legal safeguards. The extensive use
:15:47. > :15:48.of non-statutory powers up at Strathclyde means three quarters of
:15:49. > :15:52.those searched in 2010 were told little or nothing about why they
:15:53. > :15:56.were being subjected to the procedure. Conversely, 90% of the
:15:57. > :16:01.searches in the Northern region where statutory and subjects were
:16:02. > :16:05.given more information. Presiding Officer, we are readily told about
:16:06. > :16:09.those that and stop and search that crime is at a record low, but there
:16:10. > :16:14.is no robust evidence showing a link between this and the increased
:16:15. > :16:17.prevalence of this tactic. Drops in serious assaults and weapon carrying
:16:18. > :16:23.predated the growth in stop and search. England and Wales boast a
:16:24. > :16:26.similar record low in crime achieved with only a quarter of the stop and
:16:27. > :16:33.searches per person compared to Scotland as a whole. The Justice
:16:34. > :16:36.Secretary also tells us that because only a small number of complaints
:16:37. > :16:41.have been received, we can safely assume everything is fine. Instead,
:16:42. > :16:46.I fear this is because people don't know and aunt told their rights,
:16:47. > :16:53.they don't know about police got in's complete and review process. --
:16:54. > :16:58.Police Scotland. I think it will reveal a great deal about those that
:16:59. > :17:01.are targeted, young people who are disengaged. Young people whose
:17:02. > :17:06.concerns are too often not heard. Young people whose views of the
:17:07. > :17:12.police in absence of any perceptible form of redress may be tainted by
:17:13. > :17:16.such experiences. The Scottish Centre for crime and Justice
:17:17. > :17:20.research's recent study made compelling reading. It concluded
:17:21. > :17:23.that disproportionate use of stop and search against young people is
:17:24. > :17:31.out of kilter with offending patterns and the welfare approach to
:17:32. > :17:34.juvenile justice. Voter registration in Scotland is
:17:35. > :17:38.the highest it has ever been as households sign up to have their say
:17:39. > :17:41.in the referendum. With just under six months until polling day, an
:17:42. > :17:45.estimated 4.1 million people are now on the electoral roll. And around
:17:46. > :17:48.76% of 16 and 17-year-olds have also added their names to those eligible
:17:49. > :17:55.to vote. Our referendum correspondent Laura Bicker reports.
:17:56. > :17:59.The piece of paper being handed around this classroom is vital if
:18:00. > :18:05.these pupils want a say in September. It seems here they do.
:18:06. > :18:12.Young people can change the election. It our future. Instead of
:18:13. > :18:21.us watching our future been decided I had doubts over 18, it gives us a
:18:22. > :18:25.bit of a chance. -- adults. Around three quarters of 17 and
:18:26. > :18:30.18-year-olds have signed up to vote. Some believe it is not enough. Any
:18:31. > :18:36.procedure that is designed to ensure that all of those who are eligible
:18:37. > :18:42.to vote are indeed and franchised and can exercise their vote if they
:18:43. > :18:47.want to, only getting 75% is frankly not enough. So far around 4.1
:18:48. > :18:52.million voters have registered in Scotland, that is an increase of
:18:53. > :18:58.60,000. That means there are still around 400,000 missing from the
:18:59. > :19:02.register. Still work to do, and these Glasgow Caledonian University
:19:03. > :19:08.students illustrates why. Are you registered? Yes. I don't think you
:19:09. > :19:15.are sure about that, are you? You know. Is it important Western Mark
:19:16. > :19:23.Yes. Will you get around to registering? And quite busy.
:19:24. > :19:35.Uniquely registered at an address. My own house? This looks as if it
:19:36. > :19:37.comes as news two you can stop September is a tricky time for
:19:38. > :19:42.students. Some are aware that they are needed
:19:43. > :19:46.to register at an address. Don't leave it until the last minute, you
:19:47. > :19:53.have until September to register your vote if you want to have a say
:19:54. > :19:56.on Scotland's future. I'm now joined by Andy O'Neill from
:19:57. > :20:02.the Electoral Commission. He's in our Edinburgh studio. First of all,
:20:03. > :20:10.or what is behind the increase in registration, do you think? The
:20:11. > :20:13.figures were published today indicate that 4.1 million people and
:20:14. > :20:17.our registered on the local Government register and there is
:20:18. > :20:24.approximately 92,000 young people register. As to why the increase of
:20:25. > :20:28.around 57,000 has occurred, I don't actually have the answer. I think
:20:29. > :20:35.what you have two note is that last year there was an increase in
:20:36. > :20:38.turnout, there was an increase in the population. One assumes that
:20:39. > :20:43.people that have not been registered to date will want to take part, so
:20:44. > :20:47.they will get themselves register. We see young people signing up
:20:48. > :20:53.there, what else is to be done to get young people to sign up? I agree
:20:54. > :20:59.with what was said in your piece there, I don't think anyone would
:21:00. > :21:11.agree that 750 -- three quarters of those registered is enough and and
:21:12. > :21:17.we need to ensure that people who are eligible can register by the
:21:18. > :21:20.deadline. The commission itself will be running a campaign, we are
:21:21. > :21:26.working with the local electoral registration offices to do
:21:27. > :21:30.activities locally to ensure that people are aware of how to register.
:21:31. > :21:35.We are working with education to make sure that young people become
:21:36. > :21:39.registered. You mentioned in your piece that students, we are working
:21:40. > :21:42.with the academic registrar is to ensure that students who are
:21:43. > :21:46.first-time students or returning students are aware they have to be
:21:47. > :21:49.registered by the second and then they need to figure out where they
:21:50. > :21:58.are on the 18th and make appropriate arrangements. Indeed, you touch on
:21:59. > :22:01.the next point, you have all these people on the electoral roll,
:22:02. > :22:08.however they turn out to vote on the day itself? Postal voting, the
:22:09. > :22:13.deadline is the 3rd of September. For students, a daughter of mine is
:22:14. > :22:20.going to university in September, and she will be in exactly this
:22:21. > :22:25.position. She won't be in university until about 18th of September, she
:22:26. > :22:30.will need to register in the family home on the second and then choose
:22:31. > :22:35.how to vote by the 18. She could do a proxy vote give a proxy votes to
:22:36. > :22:38.someone else or use a postal vote. But you have to be conscious of
:22:39. > :22:42.where you are on the second, the registration deadline, and where you
:22:43. > :22:48.will be on the 18th if URA students. We will be making sure that people
:22:49. > :22:51.who are talking to students, be that the universities or the electoral
:22:52. > :22:55.registration offices, to make sure that they get the message to the
:22:56. > :22:58.students that it is crucial that they understand where they are on
:22:59. > :23:04.the second which is the registration deadline and where they will be on
:23:05. > :23:08.the 18th. Are we seeing a change in Scottish politics here? Do you think
:23:09. > :23:13.more people will turn out to vote in future elections because more people
:23:14. > :23:19.are registering just now? The last turnout was pretty poor, under 50%.
:23:20. > :23:24.We hope so. We spend our lives encouraging people to take part in
:23:25. > :23:27.elections. We hope it is a trend that manifested itself on the 18th
:23:28. > :23:34.and continues. OK, thank you very much.
:23:35. > :23:39.Let's speak to Hamish. First of all, it is interesting that
:23:40. > :23:43.young people are signing up to vote, and he was speaking there, do
:23:44. > :23:49.you think that it might still have an impact on how the vote goes? Very
:23:50. > :23:53.much so. When you look back at when the SNP proposed that 16 and
:23:54. > :24:00.17-year-olds get the vote, there is a suspicion that they were doing it
:24:01. > :24:04.because young people are more likely to vote yes, but don't think there
:24:05. > :24:09.is any evidence for that. All of the polls we have seen show that 16 and
:24:10. > :24:13.17 euros tend to be even more cautious, perhaps, than their
:24:14. > :24:20.parents. They will have an effect. -- 70-year-olds. It is difficult to
:24:21. > :24:23.say which way to go. I was talking with Andy thereabouts turnout and
:24:24. > :24:31.people turning out and voting what kind of figures might we be looking
:24:32. > :24:37.at? Turnout has been so poor in the past. I like to think we will look
:24:38. > :24:41.at a healthy turnout. The last elections were down around 50%,
:24:42. > :24:45.European elections even lower, Westminster election seem to be a
:24:46. > :24:50.bit higher. I would like to think that this could be 75, even 80%,
:24:51. > :24:54.because it has galvanised the public opinion in Scotland. People know
:24:55. > :24:59.that this is something very important and I think that people
:25:00. > :25:04.know it is important because people realise their vote counts. Every
:25:05. > :25:08.single vote as the same weight, whereas in other elections sometimes
:25:09. > :25:15.they don't. A galvanised public. How do you think the campaigns do on the
:25:16. > :25:18.ground? We have talked about how poorly do Better Together campaign
:25:19. > :25:24.have done recently in how the momentum appears to be with a Yes
:25:25. > :25:28.campaign. I think the Yes campaign has done better. If you go to any
:25:29. > :25:32.town or village around Scotland, Rhode Island and Highlands, you
:25:33. > :25:37.generally find that there will be a yes campaign meeting. People go to
:25:38. > :25:44.hear what is going on and they have more public meetings. They appear to
:25:45. > :25:48.be doing very well at that local campaigning, at that local
:25:49. > :25:55.grassroots level, and I think that is what we are seeing reflected in
:25:56. > :26:00.the polls. Some strategists speak about the air war, what is happening
:26:01. > :26:04.on the airwaves, and the ground war, those meetings you are talking
:26:05. > :26:09.about. Are we seeing differences in the two campaigns? If you're being
:26:10. > :26:13.blunt about this, you would say that the no campaign has won the air war
:26:14. > :26:19.until now and the yes campaign won the ground war.
:26:20. > :26:25.Thank you. Back to the chamber now and more on
:26:26. > :26:30.the debate on stop and search. Willie Rennie has been speaking, but
:26:31. > :26:37.let's hear now from the Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill.
:26:38. > :26:43.Mr Rennie as the First Minister and said your question, it is not just
:26:44. > :26:46.detecting those that would perpetrate and harm other
:26:47. > :26:49.individuals. It is also about protecting those who want to go
:26:50. > :26:57.about their community safely, who don't want to be prisoners in their
:26:58. > :27:00.own home. We know they those most likely to perpetrate an offence are
:27:01. > :27:05.young men with a knife. Most likely to be a victim a young men and they
:27:06. > :27:09.welcome the fact that Scotland is a safer place and that stop and search
:27:10. > :27:14.plays a role in that. That is why crime is at a low, that is why fear
:27:15. > :27:19.of crime is down, that is why people are feeling safer on our streets and
:27:20. > :27:25.in our communities. The recent survey shows that 72% of people feel
:27:26. > :27:34.safe walking alone after dark. Compared, Mr Rennie, 266% in 2008.
:27:35. > :27:37.The real point is that people welcome this approach. I was in
:27:38. > :27:46.Greenock speaking to young people about our campaign, many I spoke to
:27:47. > :27:51.understand that education and the prevention tactics combined to make
:27:52. > :27:59.our cities safer. They welcomed the stop and search. But it is not just
:28:00. > :28:01.me. The Chief Executive of Children's Scotland, Police
:28:02. > :28:08.Scotland's record means they are well placed to understand how to get
:28:09. > :28:15.young people on board. The professor of criminal -- criminology echoed
:28:16. > :28:21.that. Even the former Liberal Democrat justice spokesman Robert
:28:22. > :28:26.Brown acknowledge the impact that stop and search has when he said the
:28:27. > :28:30.single thing that deters people from criminal behaviour is the likelihood
:28:31. > :28:34.of being caught. The stop and searches carried out by Strathclyde
:28:35. > :28:42.police have been very effective. The former Tory MSP Bill Aitken said if
:28:43. > :28:47.one in 12 searches is positive, then that is a crime that has been
:28:48. > :28:52.detected or a knife that has been taken off someone. These searches
:28:53. > :28:56.save lives. In response to a knife attack, he said police must use
:28:57. > :29:00.their stop and search powers. I do not know what has changed for the
:29:01. > :29:07.Tories since we have moved from one in 12 to a success rate of 20%. The
:29:08. > :29:15.Chief Constable has responsibility to ensure the use of stop and search
:29:16. > :29:19.procedures are found in a piece of legislation and undertaken on a
:29:20. > :29:24.voluntary basis and used carefully and appropriately. I believe he
:29:25. > :29:34.does. Police Scotland are making our communities safer, stop and search
:29:35. > :29:41.is a part of that. Mr Pearson, up to five minutes.
:29:42. > :29:45.Thank you. I moved to support the amendment in my name which I
:29:46. > :29:48.understand because of their pre-emptive amendment from the
:29:49. > :29:54.Government is unlikely to achieve a vote at the end of the day. To that
:29:55. > :29:59.extent, I am disappointed. What the Cabinet secretary forgot to quote in
:30:00. > :30:04.his lead was that there is an effective oversight that this
:30:05. > :30:09.amendment seeks to pass comment on. I have to congratulate the Cabinet
:30:10. > :30:15.Secretary as I think it takes a fair amount of effort to regenerate anger
:30:16. > :30:21.within the Liberal Democratic party and the motion seems to reflect
:30:22. > :30:27.anger in the way it is set out. To that extent, I require to amend it.
:30:28. > :30:34.There is nothing in what I have today criticises the staff involved
:30:35. > :30:37.in stop searches. Nor do we criticise the support staff who
:30:38. > :30:42.provide the intelligence which leads to many of these positive searches.
:30:43. > :30:46.Indeed, Police Scotland is the latest in a long line of
:30:47. > :30:51.organisations that have released the streets of Scotland, going back to
:30:52. > :30:57.1799. That policing was always maintained with the consent of the
:30:58. > :31:03.public. At a time when we have 1000 additional police officers on our
:31:04. > :31:07.streets and in our offices, we have over 500,000 fewer younger people
:31:08. > :31:17.under the age of 25 in Scotland compared to a couple of decades ago.
:31:18. > :31:20.A significant comment about a low in crime, it is logical that stop
:31:21. > :31:26.searches are maintained at a level four times higher that -- than that
:31:27. > :31:30.in England and Wales. The question that I raise is not about police
:31:31. > :31:37.tactics, which I think we recognise is an effective tactic when probably
:31:38. > :31:43.used, it is about the policy endorsement of these tactics and
:31:44. > :31:48.strategies. Where was the Scottish police authority in deciding that
:31:49. > :31:53.they agreed with the tactic and there was a debate at that level in
:31:54. > :31:58.relation to a huge rise in stop searches? Did the cabinet secretary
:31:59. > :32:02.knew ahead of time -- know ahead of time that the authority agreed such
:32:03. > :32:06.a tactic and had he assessed from his own viewpoint the impact that
:32:07. > :32:10.might have on police and public relations ships?
:32:11. > :32:15.And you can watch the rest of that debate live or on demand at BBC
:32:16. > :32:21.Scotland's Democracy Live website - that's bbc.co.uk/democracylive.
:32:22. > :32:24.The Prime Minister has described yesterday's incident in which a
:32:25. > :32:26.pupil died at an Edinburgh school when a wall collapsed as an
:32:27. > :32:30."absolutely shocking accident". David Cameron also took questions on
:32:31. > :32:33.the Royal Mail sell-off from the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.
:32:34. > :32:41.Can the Prime Minister tell the House, what is his excuse for the
:32:42. > :32:45.Royal Mail fiasco? What I would say about the Royal Mail is that
:32:46. > :32:51.taxpayers benefitted from selling the business for ?2 billion. That,
:32:52. > :32:55.of course, is ?2 billion that the party opposite never achieved
:32:56. > :33:02.because they were never able to sell the business. This is what his own
:33:03. > :33:07.side are saying. The Member for Northampton South said yesterday,
:33:08. > :33:16."It was a debacle, unethical and immoral." He sold the shares for
:33:17. > :33:19.?3.30. What are they trading at now? When the right honourable gentleman
:33:20. > :33:25.was sitting in the Cabinet, this business lost half a billion pounds.
:33:26. > :33:31.It is now in the private sector, it is making profits. It is paying
:33:32. > :33:39.taxes and working hard for our country. There are over 14,000
:33:40. > :33:43.people who work for the Post Office, delivering letters, delivering
:33:44. > :33:48.parcels, who own shares in the business that they work for. He
:33:49. > :33:58.can't answer the question. He sold at ?3.30 and this morning, the price
:33:59. > :34:06.was ?5.63. It is basic maths, Mr Speaker. Not so much the Wolf of
:34:07. > :34:11.Wall Street, more the Dunce of Downing Street! If Royal Mail was
:34:12. > :34:19.sold at today's price, how much more would the taxpayer have made? I will
:34:20. > :34:25.take a lecture from almost anyone in the country about the sale of Royal
:34:26. > :34:32.Mail, but not from the two Muppets who advised the last Chancellor! 35
:34:33. > :34:35.years ago, the SNP and the Tories united to bring down a Labour
:34:36. > :34:49.Government and bring in Margaret Thatcher. Today, the SNP and the
:34:50. > :34:54.Tories a united on the side of tax cuts for big business, united on the
:34:55. > :34:58.side of the energy companies and united against a 50p tax. Doesn't
:34:59. > :35:02.this demonstrate that what people across the UK need is not separation
:35:03. > :35:09.between Scotland and England, but liberation from right-wing Tory
:35:10. > :35:12.economics? He has provided a very useful public service, which he has
:35:13. > :35:16.reminded me of one useful thing that the SNP have done in their history,
:35:17. > :35:21.which was to get rid of that dreadful Labour Government that
:35:22. > :35:25.nationalised British industry and made such a mess. Where I don't
:35:26. > :35:29.agree with him - I agree on one important thing, in spite of his
:35:30. > :35:33.views - I do agree that the United Kingdom is much better off together.
:35:34. > :35:39.The Liberton High School community was left devastated just before
:35:40. > :35:43.Christmas when 14-year-old pupil Jamie Skinner died whilst playing
:35:44. > :35:45.football. That heartbreak returned yesterday with the sad death of
:35:46. > :35:49.Keane Wallis-Bennett when a fabricated wall collapsed on her.
:35:50. > :35:55.I'm sure the Prime Minister andhe whole House would wish to send their
:35:56. > :36:01.condolences to the head teacher, the staff and pupils, her friends and
:36:02. > :36:05.her family? I think the whole House would agree with what the honourable
:36:06. > :36:08.gentleman said. This was a shocking accident that people will have seen
:36:09. > :36:11.across the country and their hearts will go out to the family and all
:36:12. > :36:15.those involved in the school. Clearly, the lesson also have to be
:36:16. > :36:19.learnt to make sure accidents like this can't happen again.
:36:20. > :36:22.Let's stay at Westminster and head to College Green. Our correspondent,
:36:23. > :36:26.David Porter, is standing by there. Over to you, David.
:36:27. > :36:30.Thank you. As we have just heard there, quite a range of issues being
:36:31. > :36:35.dealt with at Prime Minister's Question Time today, ending with
:36:36. > :36:38.those comments about the accident at the Edinburgh school yesterday. No
:36:39. > :36:47.shortage of comments to talk with our guests. I'm joined by Jeremy
:36:48. > :36:54.Purvis from the Liberal Democrats. Let me start with you. The Royal
:36:55. > :36:58.Mail, a Commons Committee said your Coalition Government have sold it
:36:59. > :37:02.and sold it on the cheap? The National Audit Office report - we
:37:03. > :37:06.will be learning lessons from it. But the key point that they stressed
:37:07. > :37:10.was that the Government was cautious. In the circumstances of
:37:11. > :37:15.the last few years, the degree of caution is no bad thing. Ultimately,
:37:16. > :37:23.the taxpayer is ?2 billion better off. Royal Mail pensioners are now
:37:24. > :37:26.secure knowing there is no longer a pension deficit. Royal Mail is in a
:37:27. > :37:34.security footing going forward. It is no longer making losses. Overall,
:37:35. > :37:37.there is a very clear plan for the future of the Royal Mail now.
:37:38. > :37:44.Ultimately, in the long-term, this will be viewed to be successful. In
:37:45. > :37:49.a time of austerity, essentially an accounting body has said the UK
:37:50. > :37:52.Government lost potentially up to ?1 billion in a time of austerity. It
:37:53. > :37:57.is very difficult to sell that to the public? I read all of the pages
:37:58. > :38:02.of the NAO report. It is very clear that they have indicated that it is
:38:03. > :38:06.because of the period of austerity with over 500 potential investors
:38:07. > :38:10.that the Government had canvassed that there was caution, there was
:38:11. > :38:14.the threat of industrial action and the degree of caution was recognised
:38:15. > :38:22.by the NAO. The net result of that is that it's been successful and the
:38:23. > :38:27.Government delivered it through and the NAO in the report said the
:38:28. > :38:32.taxpayers are protected and the taxpayer is ?2 billion better off on
:38:33. > :38:39.a situation where the Hooper Report was not activated but it should have
:38:40. > :38:44.been. Your Party Leader saw a political open goal and went for it
:38:45. > :38:49.today. Yet, your own party wanted to sell off Royal Mail? It's not true.
:38:50. > :38:52.Jonathan Ashworth made that clear today. The Prime Minister was
:38:53. > :38:56.completely wrong to suggest... I'm not saying about the last manifesto.
:38:57. > :39:00.Previous Labour administrations, Lord Mandelson had wanted to put a
:39:01. > :39:04.large part of the Royal Mail into private ownership? We never
:39:05. > :39:11.supported the full privatisation of the Royal Mail. We always stood on
:39:12. > :39:15.the side of both the workers and the Royal Mail. The key point - the
:39:16. > :39:20.taxpayer is not ?2 billion better off. It is at least ?750 million
:39:21. > :39:23.worse off as a result of the decision taken by this Government, a
:39:24. > :39:27.Government that rushed to privatise, without looking at what was in the
:39:28. > :39:31.best interests of Royal Mail, the workers, the taxpayer and the best
:39:32. > :39:37.interests of the customers. That is not something we should celebrate.
:39:38. > :39:40.It is something that the Government should apologise for. If there was a
:39:41. > :39:44.Labour Government returned in 2015, what would you do? Would you say,
:39:45. > :39:50."We are in the state we are in, there is nothing we can do about
:39:51. > :39:54.it." ? We do have to make decisions about the future of this country. We
:39:55. > :39:57.are not in that position. We would make our decisions based upon what
:39:58. > :40:01.is right at the time. Right for Royal Mail, but also right in the
:40:02. > :40:05.economic circumstances. What is clear, if we had been in Government
:40:06. > :40:13.now, we wouldn't have done this and also, the taxpayer wouldn't have
:40:14. > :40:20.lost out in such a huge way. What would the situation be in an
:40:21. > :40:23.independent Scotland? Could an SNP administration re-nationalise Royal
:40:24. > :40:30.Mail? Absolutely. We will do that because that is what the Scottish
:40:31. > :40:33.people want. 79% of Members of Parliament opposed it. Now, it is
:40:34. > :40:37.not just the fact that the public have lost so much money, it is the
:40:38. > :40:41.fact that it is the city spivs who have made a killing out of what's
:40:42. > :40:45.happened here. It's been a fire sale and it will be right that this goes
:40:46. > :40:49.back into the public's hand. That is what we will achieve when Scotland
:40:50. > :40:54.becomes an independent country. That would cost? Well, it will cost. We
:40:55. > :40:58.are determined to deliver this. It will require negotiations with the
:40:59. > :41:02.Westminster Government. They know, we made it clear that it was our
:41:03. > :41:06.intention to bring it back into public hands. There is no indication
:41:07. > :41:09.of how much it would cost, there is no indication of what you would do
:41:10. > :41:12.with the remainder of the shares that's in the public hands, there is
:41:13. > :41:16.no indication from the SNP what you would do with the pension fund. The
:41:17. > :41:20.pensioners are protected because of this package that was put forward.
:41:21. > :41:35.There is no indication of how you would do that? You have a failing
:41:36. > :41:40.Government that was sold on the cheap. At the same time, you have
:41:41. > :41:44.the Nationalists trying to make a referendum issue. We don't want the
:41:45. > :41:49.break-up of the Royal Mail. That has an impact on customers in Wales,
:41:50. > :42:05.Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. OK. That ends, if you had
:42:06. > :42:09.the break-up of the Royal Mail. This is not a referendum issue. This is
:42:10. > :42:13.not an independence issue. What it is is a failing Government issue. It
:42:14. > :42:18.is what the Scottish people want and that is what we will deliver. To
:42:19. > :42:22.take a lesson from the Liberals, the people of Scotland will be observing
:42:23. > :42:29.this with horror. We made a commitment to this that it will come
:42:30. > :42:41.back into public hands. That is what we will achieve. We made sure that
:42:42. > :42:44.Royal Mail has got a secure future, no longer ?500 million losses every
:42:45. > :42:48.year. We made sure the postal network in Scotland is protected. So
:42:49. > :42:52.we have none of the closures programme. This is a protection for
:42:53. > :42:57.the pensioners, for the customers and also for the Royal Mail. It is
:42:58. > :43:03.only under threat... A final word? It is a false fight and it is a
:43:04. > :43:08.false choice. The answer isn't independence. The answer isn't
:43:09. > :43:12.independence. Of course it is. This is what is right for the taxpayer
:43:13. > :43:15.and right for customers. Breaking up Royal Mail is not the answer. We
:43:16. > :43:19.will have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Andrew, as I think
:43:20. > :43:24.you get a flavour of one of those debates in which people feel very
:43:25. > :43:30.strongly about the Royal Mail. STUDIO: Thank you.
:43:31. > :43:35.A final word from Hamish now. We have another debate tonight, Nick
:43:36. > :43:40.Clegg and Nigel Farage, taking to the stage once again, to be in or
:43:41. > :43:43.out in Europe. There was a general consensus that Nigel Farage did
:43:44. > :43:47.rather well last week? There was. These are strange debates. We are
:43:48. > :43:51.still some way away from the European elections. There's a lot of
:43:52. > :43:55.political interest in these debates. There was a feeling that Nigel
:43:56. > :43:59.Farage had won, but I would be cautious in the sense that I think
:44:00. > :44:04.that he has the more populist messages so those messages are much
:44:05. > :44:09.easier to get across than perhaps the more nuanced arguments. I think
:44:10. > :44:12.if you take that on balance, they were probably fairly equal. Again,
:44:13. > :44:17.there is a lot of interest tonight and suggestions that Nick Clegg will
:44:18. > :44:22.have to come out fighting with a bit more tough, bit more belligerent and
:44:23. > :44:26.emotional about it. Whatever happens, this is a good debate for
:44:27. > :44:30.the two men, for Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage? They are getting so
:44:31. > :44:33.much publicity over it and David Cameron and Ed Miliband are nowhere
:44:34. > :44:37.to be seen on this one? Yeah. When we talk about winners and losers,
:44:38. > :44:41.there is an argument to say the biggest loser of tonight will be
:44:42. > :44:44.David Cameron. He has his Deputy Prime Minister in the spotlight,
:44:45. > :44:48.managing to build-up his profile, and there is a huge amount of
:44:49. > :44:52.publicity that's been given to Nigel Farage and UKIP. I think in the
:44:53. > :44:56.interests of all the main parties, to try and keep them on the
:44:57. > :45:02.sidelines which clearly hasn't happened. Let's touch on Conference
:45:03. > :45:07.season. We have had the three pro-union parties, the SNP start a
:45:08. > :45:14.week on Friday. That will be some conference, won't it? This is the
:45:15. > :45:19.last big gathering that the SNP will manage to get in Conference mode
:45:20. > :45:23.before the referendum. We might be forgiven for replacing the word
:45:24. > :45:27."conference" with the word "rally". It will be a huge pro-independence
:45:28. > :45:31.rally, massive fund-raising effort, every single speech will be designed
:45:32. > :45:36.to get the activists out there into the grassroots to try and build-up
:45:37. > :45:40.the vote. Conference, possibly, rally certainly. In a word, this is
:45:41. > :45:44.April now, so next month we will have the Conservatives reporting
:45:45. > :45:51.back on their devolution proposals? Yes, this is the - this is what the
:45:52. > :45:55.Unionist parties feel hope will kill off the debate by saying if you vote
:45:56. > :46:01.no, we will deliver more powers for the Parliament. They will say that
:46:02. > :46:03.is what the people of Scotland want. The Conservatives hope if they put
:46:04. > :46:07.their plans out there, that will push more people towards the "no"
:46:08. > :46:10.camp. Thank you very much for being with us during the course of the
:46:11. > :46:14.afternoon. That's all we have time for this
:46:15. > :46:21.week. We're back in two weeks' time as Parliament is off for the Easter
:46:22. > :46:27.holidays. You can catch up with all the debates on the BBC Democracy
:46:28. > :46:31.Live website. From all of us, we will see you in two weeks' time.
:46:32. > :46:43.Thanks for your company. Bye for now.
:46:44. > :46:46.Some businessmen have turned failing companies around.
:46:47. > :46:51.Some have steered massive global firms.