:01:45. > :01:50.several of the things we have seen around the opinions of purchasing
:01:51. > :01:54.managers index, the job figures from the Office for National Statistics,
:01:55. > :01:57.the Scottish Government's gross domestic product, total output from
:01:58. > :02:02.the economy, all of them suggest that quite recently there has been
:02:03. > :02:07.this divergences in the Scottish economy and that of the rest of the
:02:08. > :02:15.UK. I am speaking earlier today to Professor Brian Ashcroft, and this
:02:16. > :02:22.is one of the biggest downgrades he has faced. In June it was 2.5% and
:02:23. > :02:27.it is very much lower now. The economy is starting to slow down.
:02:28. > :02:32.Worse than that, it is slowing down in relation to the United Kingdom so
:02:33. > :02:38.we have revised our forecast down to 1.9%. We have revised our forecast
:02:39. > :02:45.for next year is slightly. Hopefully, we will pick up in 2017.
:02:46. > :02:49.I guess one thing we ought to say is, Scotland versus the rest of the
:02:50. > :02:53.UK, it does not mean the rest of the UK is doing better than Scotland.
:02:54. > :02:58.There will be some regions in Scotland not doing as well. We talk
:02:59. > :03:02.about the north -south divide and Scotland has not really fitted that.
:03:03. > :03:07.That is between the south-east of England and the North of England.
:03:08. > :03:11.Scotland, for several years through the downturn years, has been
:03:12. > :03:19.performing as well as parts of the UK. Do you have any idea why the
:03:20. > :03:23.problems are happening now? Oil and gas is the region Scotland is
:03:24. > :03:27.diverging at the moment. There are positives for users of energy. We
:03:28. > :03:34.are paying less to pay to fill up our car tank. You would have thought
:03:35. > :03:39.with much lower energy prices, that would feed through into more
:03:40. > :03:43.optimism and confidence and investment and indeed the owners of
:03:44. > :03:48.cars taking the savings from a much cheaper tank of fuel and using that
:03:49. > :03:52.to go and spend on something else. That simulate the economy. The
:03:53. > :03:56.Institute are seeing with this report today that Scotland has a
:03:57. > :04:03.slightly higher average likelihood of taking many to save it than the
:04:04. > :04:07.rest of the UK. If you save ten or 20 quid on a tank of fuel, because
:04:08. > :04:12.there are big savings over what we were paying. So we are still
:04:13. > :04:19.stingy? I thought that reputation had gone. People are paying down
:04:20. > :04:25.debt. The level of household debt remains as high as it was going into
:04:26. > :04:29.the financial crisis and that is something we should be much more
:04:30. > :04:33.worried about than we are. Oil and gas is clearly one of the issue. The
:04:34. > :04:41.other thing for exported as is the strong pound. Whiskey, oil and gas
:04:42. > :04:47.are finding it very tough going. A brief word on what has come up
:04:48. > :04:53.today. Rangers, the employee benefits case, HMRC has finally won
:04:54. > :05:01.at the third attempt. Long awaited. Does it have any significance? About
:05:02. > :05:05.5000 companies, I am told, have used the employee benefits trust to
:05:06. > :05:12.offshore the many that they are paying people. What was argued by
:05:13. > :05:16.the Holdings group, Sir David Murray's former company, now
:05:17. > :05:20.liquidated, which owned Rangers Football Club before it was
:05:21. > :05:23.liquidated, that this was not many being paid for the work that was
:05:24. > :05:29.done, for the performance of footballers. Three judges today have
:05:30. > :05:34.come back and said it is common sense that the money was related to
:05:35. > :05:37.the work being done, not just the players, it was senior managers as
:05:38. > :05:42.well and this money should have been taxed by the company at source. The
:05:43. > :05:45.company no longer exists so it is quite likely a lot of that money is
:05:46. > :05:51.going to come back to the tax authorities. They have to get very
:05:52. > :05:55.worried. Thank you very much. Now, a human rights group
:05:56. > :05:57.has criticised what it says is excessive secrecy
:05:58. > :05:59.surrounding the investigation into claims that Scottish airports
:06:00. > :06:02.were used as stop offs for planes transferring suspected
:06:03. > :06:04.terrorists to secret jails. Police Scotland's inquiry
:06:05. > :06:08.into rendition flights started over two years ago after the BBC was
:06:09. > :06:11.denied information about the case. Amnesty International called it
:06:12. > :06:14.a smokescreen. From our Investigations Unit,
:06:15. > :06:30.Fiona Walker reports. Let the world hear what is
:06:31. > :06:34.happening! Guantanamo Bay and the voice of the last UK resident to be
:06:35. > :06:39.detained there. But on Friday he flew into Britain after more than 13
:06:40. > :06:44.years without trial. Except this time the flight was not a rendition
:06:45. > :06:50.flight, not like when this man was taken out of Afghanistan in a covert
:06:51. > :06:53.operation. Police Scotland has been investigating these so-called
:06:54. > :06:57.torture flights for two and a half years. So what has happened to
:06:58. > :07:00.Police Scotland's investigation? We asked a series of questions to try
:07:01. > :07:07.and find out and we have come up against a brick wall. We asked for a
:07:08. > :07:11.copy of the peace's interim report and access was denied. It is
:07:12. > :07:14.reasonable there might be confidential elements in a report
:07:15. > :07:20.like this so we suggested a black some bits out but again, Access
:07:21. > :07:27.denied. We even asked how many pages were in the report and again, Access
:07:28. > :07:30.denied. Ultimately, we asked if they had received a crucial document from
:07:31. > :07:37.the United States government on rendition flights. They were not
:07:38. > :07:40.able to tell us. Police Scotland's decision on the interim report has
:07:41. > :07:46.been backed by the Scottish information Commissioner. One of the
:07:47. > :07:49.reasons given by the police for access is national security. We
:07:50. > :07:54.already have so much information that is saying things can't come out
:07:55. > :08:00.because of national security. We just see it as being a smoke screen
:08:01. > :08:04.to the reality -- smoke screen. That is bringing more of a national
:08:05. > :08:08.security threat to the UK and other countries than actually having a
:08:09. > :08:13.very open process where people can be held to account. Police Scotland,
:08:14. > :08:16.the Crown Office and the Scottish Government all say they can't
:08:17. > :08:21.comment further while investigations are ongoing. Two and a half years
:08:22. > :08:31.into the police's investigation, have they come up against this too?
:08:32. > :08:34.If so, will we ever know the truth? My apologies as some gremlins
:08:35. > :08:35.appeared to have crept into that report.
:08:36. > :08:41.Joining me on the programme today is political commentator Gerry Hassan.
:08:42. > :08:48.Let me ask you something on a slight tangent to rendition, there has been
:08:49. > :08:53.comment about issues like that and the new interception of Internet
:08:54. > :08:56.data, a discussion which is going on in Parliament, people saying that we
:08:57. > :09:02.are down to brass tacks, people don't care. People often don't care
:09:03. > :09:06.when it is about other people but they do care when it is about
:09:07. > :09:10.themselves and you can't make public policy in that ad hoc way so I think
:09:11. > :09:16.people in some way don't quite get it but they realise there is
:09:17. > :09:20.something at her, there is a lack of fundamental entrenchment of
:09:21. > :09:24.people's writes. But the problem for the civil liberties camp, it
:09:25. > :09:29.obviously affects people if they think the Internet history can be
:09:30. > :09:34.accessed by the state, they might not like that idea, but if it is to
:09:35. > :09:40.catch terrorists, they are not going to use it against me so what is the
:09:41. > :09:43.problem? But you can't make law about worst-case scenarios, just
:09:44. > :09:48.about terrorists, you have got to make the law about everyone. And
:09:49. > :09:52.people have a suspicion that there is a data gathering exercise by the
:09:53. > :09:56.state and by states of the world, but maybe it is too big for people
:09:57. > :10:01.to get their head around and they often think it is just about bad
:10:02. > :10:05.guys. We are about to see a debate in Parliament which is about tax
:10:06. > :10:11.credits. Labour has made its first test if you like of its new Kezia
:10:12. > :10:16.Dugdale, we are going to win territory back. What did you make of
:10:17. > :10:22.Labour's conference at the weekend? Are they starting to carve something
:10:23. > :10:26.out? I think they did. They are starting to carve something out.
:10:27. > :10:30.There is also shades, are they making policy on these issues or are
:10:31. > :10:36.they just trying to money or reduce the potential of the SNP to make
:10:37. > :10:41.hay, as with Trident. We can't quite tell yet because the devil is going
:10:42. > :10:46.to be in the detail. How is it -- easy is it to do these policies? We
:10:47. > :10:50.don't have the infrastructure in Scotland. The argument will be that
:10:51. > :10:54.the devil is not in the detail, what Scottish Labour need is a story they
:10:55. > :10:59.can tell the people of Scotland about, then being a left-wing party
:11:00. > :11:03.and the SNP not being as left-wing as they claim, and with the issue of
:11:04. > :11:08.Trident and tax credits, they are getting themselves onto the
:11:09. > :11:13.platform. That is absolutely right, but the story has got to link to
:11:14. > :11:24.some kind of reality, otherwise what is it? Just a set of myths. Like the
:11:25. > :11:26.Lib Dems in the last election, they were not advancing fairness, it
:11:27. > :11:29.becomes disingenuous and voters eventually see that. It has got to
:11:30. > :11:33.have some relationship you can deliver on it. The other side of
:11:34. > :11:38.this is, do you think it is a story which has been told to all people in
:11:39. > :11:41.Scotland or just some people in Scotland? One of the comment that
:11:42. > :11:46.has been made on the tax credit is that this is to attract core Labour
:11:47. > :11:51.voters, according to the SNP. If you live in certain areas of the
:11:52. > :11:57.country, perhaps you are on tax credits, you might want to vote for
:11:58. > :12:01.someone who says you will be. But is it the kind of issue middle Scotland
:12:02. > :12:05.will get attracted to? They say middle Scotland votes en masse now
:12:06. > :12:10.for the SNP. They are trying to identify the left leading Labour
:12:11. > :12:14.voters. They are trying to chase that slightly mythical social
:12:15. > :12:19.justice group which people think -- which is slightly bigger than people
:12:20. > :12:25.think. It does then have, because you are making trade-offs, people on
:12:26. > :12:29.?50,000 incomes and over, you are going to have to take a hit for us
:12:30. > :12:35.to deliver on these credentials. It is whether they lose some voters for
:12:36. > :12:39.that. But it is interesting, it is an assertive statement, it is doing
:12:40. > :12:43.something rather than not doing something. It is like saying to the
:12:44. > :12:47.SNP, what are you going to do with tax credits? Don't leave, we will be
:12:48. > :12:49.back with you later. Now, Labour have chosen this
:12:50. > :12:51.afternoon's debate and, following Kezia Dugdale's pledge to reverse
:12:52. > :12:54.the UK government's planned cuts to tax credits, their motion calls on
:12:55. > :12:57.the Scottish government to do the same, using new welfare powers
:12:58. > :12:59.being devolved to Holyrood. Labour's Public Services and
:13:00. > :13:15.Wealth Creation Spokesperson If the SNP do not support our motion
:13:16. > :13:19.today, it will confirm once and for all that the politics of grievance
:13:20. > :13:20.is more important to them than helping working families in
:13:21. > :13:30.Scotland. We have the power to make change, we
:13:31. > :13:35.have the many to pay for that change, the question is, there's the
:13:36. > :13:40.SNP have the political will? Scottish politics is about to get
:13:41. > :13:44.real and, Presiding Officer, it is not before time. The Scottish Labour
:13:45. > :13:49.conference this weekend, Kezia Dugdale outlined Labour's plans to
:13:50. > :13:51.protect working families. Scottish Labour will restore in full the
:13:52. > :14:03.money for tax credits. Scottish Labour will make different
:14:04. > :14:06.choices on tax to the SNP government in Edinburgh and different choices
:14:07. > :14:11.to the Tory government in London. We would not implement the Tory tax cut
:14:12. > :14:17.for higher rate earners, we would not implement the SNP's tax cut on
:14:18. > :14:22.airlines. Residing officer, tax cuts actually cost money. You spend money
:14:23. > :14:26.to cut a tax but we would spend that made differently. We would use that
:14:27. > :14:30.revenue to restore the money lost for tax credits for families in
:14:31. > :14:34.Scotland, using the new powers coming to the Scottish Parliament
:14:35. > :14:39.through the Scotland Bill. I am grateful to Jackie Baillie for
:14:40. > :14:46.giving way. How much money will be raised by the tax changes she
:14:47. > :14:51.proposes? I wonder whether I could get you to reflect on the words of a
:14:52. > :14:58.Tory MP, David Davis, when he said the Government needs to look at this
:14:59. > :15:02.again. ?3 million he is -- families, it does not mean cancelling your
:15:03. > :15:07.holiday, it means an empty pantry, and I hope this does not end up
:15:08. > :15:12.being a poll tax. I wonder whether he would confirm whether he agrees
:15:13. > :15:16.with David Davis or not? Labour will use the new powers coming to this
:15:17. > :15:20.Parliament to fulfil its historic mission, to stand up for working
:15:21. > :15:24.people. I can promise you that no one will pay more tax than they are
:15:25. > :15:45.paying now under Labour's plans to restore the money lost from tax
:15:46. > :15:48.credits. Not 1p more. We would use the air passenger duty of ?250
:15:49. > :15:50.million to help working families rather than give a tax cut to
:15:51. > :15:53.airlines, as the SNP propose. We will not increase tax thresholds for
:15:54. > :15:55.those earning more than ?42,000, which the Tories propose, giving
:15:56. > :15:57.funding of ?440 million. There is more than enough from both these
:15:58. > :16:01.sources to fully fund the policy and give them a bit more. The SNP really
:16:02. > :16:05.do need to keep up. The claim that our funding has already been
:16:06. > :16:10.committed for education is absolute nonsense. Unlike the SNP, we don't
:16:11. > :16:16.spend the same amount of money over and over and over again. As Kezia
:16:17. > :16:20.Dugdale outlined at the weekend, we will use the powers coming to
:16:21. > :16:28.Scotland to set a 50p top rate of tax on those earning over ?150,000 a
:16:29. > :16:30.year to invest in education, specifically, a fair start fund for
:16:31. > :16:33.our poorest pupils. An idea... Labour's Jackie Baillie
:16:34. > :16:34.speaking there. And from the Garden Lobby
:16:35. > :16:36.at Holyrood I'm joined now by the Conservative Alex Johnstone,
:16:37. > :16:50.from the SNP Linda Fabiani Neil Findlay, what is your response
:16:51. > :16:54.to the point the SNP made that no matter how grand the pledge not to
:16:55. > :16:59.implement tax credit cuts sounds, even under the powers which have
:17:00. > :17:03.been transferred to the Scottish parliament, you couldn't do what you
:17:04. > :17:09.are planning to do? That is an ambitious statement from the SNP.
:17:10. > :17:15.Surely we have the ability, and we have the powers to create new
:17:16. > :17:19.benefits, to take action to put money back in the pockets of working
:17:20. > :17:27.people who are having it ripped out of their pockets by Alex's party. I
:17:28. > :17:33.wish we could see similar ambition from the SNP. That is not a reply to
:17:34. > :17:38.the SNP's point. That is like saying surely if we wished to do time
:17:39. > :17:50.travel, we could do it? No, we can do it. It has been confirmed, so
:17:51. > :17:54.let's do it. Sorry, what has been confirmed by the Scottish
:17:55. > :17:57.parliament's research bureau? We will have the power to top-up
:17:58. > :18:01.benefits and create our own benefits. Therefore, we can do this.
:18:02. > :18:06.These were the same argument is we had when the bedroom tax came in.
:18:07. > :18:11.The SNP told us we could not do anything, and yet it was a Labour
:18:12. > :18:14.proposal that sorted out that issue and forced the SNP to take action.
:18:15. > :18:22.They are using the same arguments now as they did then. Why don't we
:18:23. > :18:28.get on with doing it? Linda Fabiani, what is the answer to that
:18:29. > :18:32.question? Even if there is ambiguity about this being transferred in the
:18:33. > :18:39.Scotland Bill, why not say, if we can do this, we will? That research
:18:40. > :18:45.is ambiguous, because it talks about benefits. If you look at information
:18:46. > :18:50.that has come from constitutional experts, there is a question of
:18:51. > :18:53.whether it is benefits or tax. That is why the SNP has put down an
:18:54. > :18:57.amendment to the Scotland Bill, looking for full power over tax
:18:58. > :19:05.credits so that we can take these decisions properly. We have
:19:06. > :19:08.mitigated as far as possible for the excesses of the Tory government, a
:19:09. > :19:13.government that Scotland didn't vote for and has had these cuts imposed
:19:14. > :19:19.on it. It is entirely undemocratic. So we are looking at ways best to
:19:20. > :19:23.deal with it. We always do what is best for Scotland. We want the
:19:24. > :19:30.unambiguous power to look at tax credits. Is it best for Scotland
:19:31. > :19:33.give businessmen travelling to London flight reductions, rather
:19:34. > :19:41.than putting money into working people's pockets? Linda Fabiani, why
:19:42. > :19:47.don't you say, if it turns out that the powers being transferred will
:19:48. > :19:54.allow us to do this, we will do it? We will look at it. That is not the
:19:55. > :20:00.same as saying, we will do it. There is a lot to be worked out. We are
:20:01. > :20:05.talking about a Tory government which may implement these tax credit
:20:06. > :20:09.cuts immediately. We will not have the powers transferred for some
:20:10. > :20:14.time. We should be joining together, Labour and SNP and the
:20:15. > :20:20.Greens and independence, and fighting these tax credit cuts all
:20:21. > :20:25.the way and tried to make sure that when Georgia Osborne comes back with
:20:26. > :20:30.his Autumn Statement, he listens. I am sure Neil Findlay will make the
:20:31. > :20:33.point that this is typical of the SNP. You would rather manufacture a
:20:34. > :20:37.grievance with the government in London about a power you allegedly
:20:38. > :20:42.haven't got that make a commitment to doing something with the powers
:20:43. > :20:47.you have. You are not prepared to stand there today and say that if
:20:48. > :20:58.you're wrong and these powers are in the Scotland Bill, you will use them
:20:59. > :21:02.to stop the cuts in tax credits? The SNP does the proper research and is
:21:03. > :21:07.not opportunistic. We have proved that with the bedroom tax. We proved
:21:08. > :21:12.it with the Scottish welfare fund. It is ridiculous that we have a
:21:13. > :21:16.Labour Party which is pledging money over and over again from the same
:21:17. > :21:19.source for different things through no more than political opportunism,
:21:20. > :21:28.when they should join with us in fighting Georgia Osborne's cuts.
:21:29. > :21:35.Alex Johnstone, you are presumably a great supporter of Labour's new
:21:36. > :21:39.policy in Scotland, given that you and with Davidson's last-minute
:21:40. > :21:45.conversion to finding that tax credit cuts are an evil thing? We
:21:46. > :21:50.are in a position where the move to reduce tax credits is currently
:21:51. > :21:53.under review. We will hear in the Autumn Statement what the Chancellor
:21:54. > :21:59.wants to do. But the powers contained within the Scotland Bill
:22:00. > :22:02.have been clarified with amendments brought forward this week. They are
:22:03. > :22:08.clear in what they mean. It means that if tax credits are reduced, the
:22:09. > :22:14.Scottish Government have the power under the Scotland act to top-up
:22:15. > :22:18.these benefits. That is not the view of an independent expert, it is the
:22:19. > :22:21.view of the Secretary of State, David Mundell, who I am sure will
:22:22. > :22:24.still be Secretary of State when this government are using these
:22:25. > :22:28.powers if they are re-elected next year. That is the view of David
:22:29. > :22:32.Mundell about what the Scottish parliament could do. What is the
:22:33. > :22:37.view of the Scottish Conservatives about what the Scottish Parliament
:22:38. > :22:42.should do? Should use its powers to top up benefits and stop the cuts in
:22:43. > :22:46.tax credits? If we can get the changes necessary to make sure the
:22:47. > :22:50.alternative is to tax credits are in place before tax credits are cut,
:22:51. > :22:56.then it is practical that we could proceed on this basis. But any
:22:57. > :23:01.future government in Scotland will have the power under the current
:23:02. > :23:05.Scotland Bill to take forward a programme in which they can
:23:06. > :23:09.mitigate. I would support the right to do that. I would have to look at
:23:10. > :23:14.the circumstances when the proposal came along. As a conservative, I am
:23:15. > :23:17.of course concerned about the level of tax increases that would be
:23:18. > :23:22.necessary in Scotland to fund that. As we have seen in the past, if you
:23:23. > :23:26.are going to fund major programmes like the one being proposed by both
:23:27. > :23:30.the parties to my left here, then you have to say where the money is
:23:31. > :23:34.coming from. If you want to raise huge amounts of tax revenue through
:23:35. > :23:39.income tax, you have little alternative than to do that by
:23:40. > :23:48.raising basic tax. So I don't see how they will make that possible.
:23:49. > :23:52.Neil Findlay, at PMQs today, David Cameron said they will come up with
:23:53. > :24:02.proposals to mitigate the effects of this in the Autumn Statement. If
:24:03. > :24:09.Georgia Osborne does do what -- if is Mr Osborne does do not collect
:24:10. > :24:15.Johnstone said, your policy could evaporate? Let's see. You are suing
:24:16. > :24:18.alliance of the SNP and tour is coming out of the same things.
:24:19. > :25:10.Labour have said clearly that we will resolve this so that
:25:11. > :26:47.Labour have said clearly that we at ways to SN -- bash the SNP.
:26:48. > :26:51.Labour have said clearly that we talking about substantial issues. It
:26:52. > :26:56.is like the bedroom tax, volume two. They are just trying to outmanoeuvre
:26:57. > :27:00.each other, and labour are trying to outmanoeuvre the SNP on the left,
:27:01. > :27:07.which should not be that difficult, given that the SNP should be a big
:27:08. > :27:12.tent party. It is an issue of trade-offs, and no one is honestly
:27:13. > :27:17.talking about those trade-offs. Do you think we are just seeing a first
:27:18. > :27:23.stab at this from the SNP, although they come up with something more
:27:24. > :27:27.specific? You would hope so. If we are going to mitigate tax credit
:27:28. > :27:31.cuts, it will not happen immediately because the powers that be are going
:27:32. > :27:37.through the UK Parliament at the moment. So we will not have the
:27:38. > :27:41.powers to mitigate immediately. Then there will be the issue of
:27:42. > :27:48.administration. The Department for Work and Pensions have not been
:27:49. > :27:51.historically devolution sensitive. But there has been a change in both
:27:52. > :27:56.the Conservative and UK governments over the last few months. It has
:27:57. > :28:04.gone from, we are letting you do what you want, ten, hey, have more
:28:05. > :28:07.powers. I would not be surprised if David Mundell stick something in the
:28:08. > :28:11.Scotland Bill specifically saying, you can mitigate the effect of tax
:28:12. > :28:16.credit cuts if you want to, because they want to say, fine, you can do
:28:17. > :28:23.this. Now tell us where you will put taxes up. Yes, be careful what you
:28:24. > :28:28.wish for. In a way, the Scottish Parliament is being given more and
:28:29. > :28:33.more power. You have ethical issues like abortion, and that will throw
:28:34. > :28:35.problems to the SNP if you get what you ask for, because you then have
:28:36. > :28:36.to do it. Back to the chamber now, where MSPs
:28:37. > :28:39.are debating a Labour motion which looks at how the
:28:40. > :28:41.Scottish government could reverse the effects of the UK government's
:28:42. > :28:43.planned tax credit cuts. The Social Justice Secretary
:28:44. > :28:44.Alex Neil is responding
:28:45. > :28:59.for the government now. She is still leading for Labour as a
:29:00. > :29:04.spokesperson on public services. Presiding Officer, how can Labour
:29:05. > :29:15.have any credibility on public services when their cheerleader in
:29:16. > :29:22.this debate votes to spend ?167 billion on on their fear instead of
:29:23. > :29:29.welfare? To be fair to Jackie Baillie, her colleagues in London
:29:30. > :29:33.also failed to oppose the Tories' Welfare Reform Bill. He then acting
:29:34. > :29:39.leader of the Labour Party, Harriet Harman, wanted to vote for the Tory
:29:40. > :29:44.Bill. They eventually agreed to merely abstain. But at no point did
:29:45. > :29:54.I hear Jackie Baillie criticise Harriet Harman for wanting to vote
:29:55. > :30:07.for this Tory Bill. Jackie Baillie herself made it clear during the
:30:08. > :30:14.referendum that she was opposed to social security powers coming to
:30:15. > :30:22.this Parliament. Had... Order, please. Had Jackie Baillie had her
:30:23. > :30:25.way and no powers coming to this Parliament, we would not now be
:30:26. > :30:34.getting the power to reverse the Tory tax credit... I have a point of
:30:35. > :30:37.order. Can I ask the presenting offers a's guidance? I thought it
:30:38. > :30:44.was in order that a member spoke to the debate and not the debate of the
:30:45. > :30:49.previous day. Thank you, Ms Grant. The Cabinet Secretary is opening the
:30:50. > :30:55.debate and speaking about welfare. It is up to me whether I stopped the
:30:56. > :31:05.Cabinet Secretary or not. Cabinet Secretary, continue. They don't like
:31:06. > :31:11.the truth, presiding officer. If we had listened to Jackie Baillie and
:31:12. > :31:14.social security powers were to be denied to this Parliament, we
:31:15. > :31:20.wouldn't be in the position we are in now to undo the dirty work of the
:31:21. > :31:25.Tories on tax credits. No wonder the Scottish Labour Party for. In order,
:31:26. > :31:32.please. They have no authority when it comes to fighting the Tory cuts.
:31:33. > :31:36.Unlike the Labour Party, the SNP has fought the welfare cuts tooth and
:31:37. > :31:46.nail at every opportunity, while they tried to get into bed with the
:31:47. > :31:50.Tories. Cabinet Secretary could you address the whole. Unlike the Labour
:31:51. > :31:55.Party, we will not run up the white flag while there are still a
:31:56. > :32:00.relisting chance of forcing the Tory Chancellor to drastically amend his
:32:01. > :32:07.proposals for tax credit cuts in the Autumn Statement 's. These cuts will
:32:08. > :32:08.do enormous damage to the living standards of some of the poorest
:32:09. > :32:12.working people in Britain today. And now to
:32:13. > :32:15.Prime Minister's Questions, where Jeremy Corbyn repeatedly
:32:16. > :32:16.questioned David Cameron on tax credits
:32:17. > :32:18.for a second week running. The Prime Minister said he'd have an
:32:19. > :32:29.answer for him, just not quite yet. Last week I asked the Prime Minister
:32:30. > :32:34.the same question six times, Mr Speaker, and he could not answer. He
:32:35. > :32:40.has now had a week to think about it. I want to ask in one more time,
:32:41. > :32:44.can he guarantee that next April nobody is going to be worse off as a
:32:45. > :32:51.result of cuts to working tax credits? Let me be absolutely clear
:32:52. > :32:56.with the honourable gentleman, what I can guarantee next April is there
:32:57. > :33:02.will be an ?11,000 personal allowance so you can earn ?11,000
:33:03. > :33:07.before you pay tax. I can guarantee there will be a national living wage
:33:08. > :33:10.at ?7.20, giving the lowest paid in our country a ?20 a week pay rise
:33:11. > :33:16.compared with the election next year. On the issue of tax credits,
:33:17. > :33:20.we suffered the defeat in the House of lords so we have taken the
:33:21. > :33:24.proposals away, we are looking at them, we will come forward with new
:33:25. > :33:28.proposals in the Autumn Statement and in exactly three weeks' time, I
:33:29. > :33:33.will be able to answer his question. If he wants to spend the next five
:33:34. > :33:38.questions asking it all over again, I am sure he will find that very
:33:39. > :33:41.entertaining and Indus -- interesting, but how it fits with
:33:42. > :33:50.the new politics I am not quite sure. This is not about
:33:51. > :33:54.entertainment, this is about... This is not funny for people who are
:33:55. > :33:59.desperately worried about what is going to happen next April. If the
:34:00. > :34:04.Prime Minister will not listen to the questions I have put, will not
:34:05. > :34:08.listen to the questions put by the public, then perhaps the Prime
:34:09. > :34:14.Minister will listen to a question that was raised by his honourable
:34:15. > :34:18.friend the member who last week, concerning tax credit changes said,
:34:19. > :34:24.and I quote, their changes cannot go ahead next April and that any
:34:25. > :34:30.mitigation should be full mitigation. What is the Prime
:34:31. > :34:37.Minister's answer to his friend? It is very much the same answer I gave
:34:38. > :34:41.to him. In three weeks' time, we will announce our proposals and he
:34:42. > :34:47.will be able to see what we will do to deliver the high pay, low tax,
:34:48. > :34:52.lower welfare economy we want to see. That is what we need in our
:34:53. > :34:57.country. Is the Prime Minister aware that many service widows continue to
:34:58. > :35:01.be deprived of their forces pensions if there is a change in their
:35:02. > :35:05.personal circumstances? Does he agree this is a clear breach in the
:35:06. > :35:11.spirit of the military covenant and what will he do to rectify this
:35:12. > :35:14.wrong? We made a big change last year at around the time of Armistice
:35:15. > :35:20.Day to make sure that many people who had remarried were able to get
:35:21. > :35:24.their pensions and that was a very big step forward, welcomed by the
:35:25. > :35:28.British Legion. If there are further steps we need to take or need to
:35:29. > :35:32.look at, I am happy to look at them and see what can be done.
:35:33. > :35:33.Our Westminster correspondent David Porter was watching.
:35:34. > :35:38.He's standing by with a group of MPs.
:35:39. > :35:44.This is the type of politics we like, when it looks as if it is
:35:45. > :35:50.raining they are going to allow us to come in. We need more of this.
:35:51. > :35:55.Joining me now three MPs and we are going to discuss a number of
:35:56. > :36:01.matters. Ian Murray, Stuart McConnell and Donald Stephenson. Let
:36:02. > :36:05.me start with you first, your leader is response to questions about tax
:36:06. > :36:11.credits, I will tell you in three weeks. Is that going to hold? There
:36:12. > :36:15.are two aspects to the tax credit issue. The specific one, where we
:36:16. > :36:25.want to be as a country. The Prime Minister wants us to move towards a
:36:26. > :36:29.low tax, low welfare economy. On the specific issue of tax credits, in
:36:30. > :36:33.three weeks' time there is a combo pensive Spending Review and that is
:36:34. > :36:36.when any amendments to the tax credits regime will be announced and
:36:37. > :36:40.I think that is the right way it should be announced to Parliament.
:36:41. > :36:44.Another way of looking at that could be that they made a complete mess of
:36:45. > :36:49.this, it was rejected by the House of lords and now your party is
:36:50. > :37:06.scrabbling to try and find an answer to the problem. The Chancellor
:37:07. > :37:09.recognising there has been some criticism of the ideas with regards
:37:10. > :37:12.to the tax credits, he is now looking into it, it will come back
:37:13. > :37:15.to Parliament, that is the correct way to do it. More importantly is
:37:16. > :37:17.getting across the message that we want to get to a high wage, low tax,
:37:18. > :37:20.low welfare economy. It must be quite frustrating if every time you
:37:21. > :37:23.get up to ask a question about tax credits, David Cameron says, wait
:37:24. > :37:25.until the Autumn Statement. This is the extraordinary position we find
:37:26. > :37:28.ourselves in in Scotland where we have a Tory government that Scotland
:37:29. > :37:30.did not vote for. We hear continuously in the chamber that the
:37:31. > :37:35.Conservatives have a long-term economic plan. You can't have a
:37:36. > :37:39.long-term economic plan and not be able to tell us whether working
:37:40. > :37:44.people will be better or worse off in six months' time. As a result of
:37:45. > :37:49.that, in Scotland, the Scottish Government have made clear they have
:37:50. > :37:53.to wait and make clear what the Chancellor announces in the Spending
:37:54. > :37:57.Review and we will take the proper approach in the same way we have
:37:58. > :38:02.done with council tax benefit, housing benefit changes and the
:38:03. > :38:06.bedroom tax as well. Have we got a commitment from your government in
:38:07. > :38:09.Edinburgh that if there are reductions in tax credits, they will
:38:10. > :38:14.be fully recompensed by the Scottish Government? We have tabled an
:38:15. > :38:19.amendment to give the Scottish Parliament full control over tax
:38:20. > :38:22.credits and welfare powers. It is not enough for us to keep on making
:38:23. > :38:28.things up all the time and instead we need the power. The big challenge
:38:29. > :38:33.is whether Ian Murray will tell is in a moment whether his party will
:38:34. > :38:38.support that amendment at the Scotland Bill. At the risk of
:38:39. > :38:42.jumping on a question, Ian Murray, will Labour support the SNP if they
:38:43. > :38:49.say they will top-up tax credits if that motion is debated in the
:38:50. > :38:52.Scottish Parliament? The answer is no, they have no intention of
:38:53. > :38:56.topping up the tax credits in Scotland because they want to create
:38:57. > :39:04.more constitutional grievance. Kezia Dugdale very clearly in her speech
:39:05. > :39:11.on Saturday said we will recompense anyone with the current powers in
:39:12. > :39:16.the Scotland Bill. It is clause 21, it gives the Scottish Parliament
:39:17. > :39:21.full powers to proper any benefits from the UK Government. It is fully
:39:22. > :39:25.funded. For Stewart to go on about putting in another amendment, to
:39:26. > :39:30.devolve this or devolve that, is missing the point. We have got the
:39:31. > :39:32.powers to do this, let's get it done for the most vulnerable working
:39:33. > :39:36.people in Scotland who did not deserve what the Chancellor did to
:39:37. > :39:43.them in the Autumn Statement last year. Is there a frustrate them --
:39:44. > :39:47.restoration from you in Labour that for at least three weeks this row
:39:48. > :39:51.appears to be diffused because they say they are thinking about it again
:39:52. > :39:55.and we'll tell you in the Autumn Statement. Let's look at where we
:39:56. > :40:00.are. The Lords have spoken, sent it back to the Chancellor, the
:40:01. > :40:04.Chancellor is having to act on that, because his backbenchers are also
:40:05. > :40:07.uncomfortable with this, but what Kezia Dugdale did on Saturday,
:40:08. > :40:11.regardless of what mitigation measures the Chancellor comes back
:40:12. > :40:15.with, on the current state of play today, which is the current policy,
:40:16. > :40:18.we will mitigate the problems with tax credits in Scotland with the
:40:19. > :40:22.powers currently in the Scotland Bill. It is fully funded, the
:40:23. > :40:31.legislation is there, let's get on with it. The SNP will not tell us.
:40:32. > :40:34.Labour have promised to fund this using money they have already said
:40:35. > :40:39.they are going to spend on education. That is not true! Labour
:40:40. > :40:45.are guilty of full sleep raising the hopes of the troubled people. That
:40:46. > :40:50.is a total lie. It comes from not taking a passenger duty and not
:40:51. > :40:56.taking the increase from thresholds. It is a lie. You have spent it
:40:57. > :41:02.twice. We are trying to manage the economy. From your point of view,
:41:03. > :41:08.your opponents are arguing amongst themselves on this issue, you are
:41:09. > :41:12.getting off scot-free at the moment. Not at all, we are getting on in
:41:13. > :41:17.government. We want a productive economy with people on high wages,
:41:18. > :41:21.lots of employment, a growing economy, the appointment rates are
:41:22. > :41:29.going up, unemployment is dropping, that is the sort of country we want
:41:30. > :41:32.to create. Will you give us the full powers in Scotland to mitigate a
:41:33. > :41:41.policy that people in Scotland did not vote for? That is all we get
:41:42. > :41:45.from the SNP. This is a party to my right, coincidentally, that does not
:41:46. > :41:53.have a plan. They are all over the place on tax credits. I am happy to
:41:54. > :41:59.take up the rest of your programme explaining the Labour Party policy
:42:00. > :42:04.again, it is fully funded. It comes in clause 21 of the Scotland Bill.
:42:05. > :42:09.We are going to leave it there. Somehow, I think we will be
:42:10. > :42:12.returning. Thank you very much. If you don't behave yourselves, I will
:42:13. > :42:14.take you all outside in the rain again. Back to you.
:42:15. > :42:16.Time for a final chat with our political commentator
:42:17. > :42:27.Is it my usual inability to misunderstand the statements from
:42:28. > :42:33.politicians but was what Alex Neil said quite the same as what Linda
:42:34. > :42:39.Fabiani was telling us? No, it was completely at odds. It was a bit
:42:40. > :42:43.with follicle, maybe he meant by reversing the tax credit cuts, maybe
:42:44. > :42:50.he meant in the House of, and is. I do think he was literally trying to
:42:51. > :42:55.set unilaterally new SNP policy. But you still think they need a bit more
:42:56. > :43:01.thinking? This argument about raising pupil's hopes falsely, is
:43:02. > :43:06.that going to run? No. Before they started to spa, Ian Murray got the
:43:07. > :43:10.tone right. He was animated and really driven by wanting to reverse
:43:11. > :43:15.the tax credit cuts. That is the right thing to do. Stuart MacDonald
:43:16. > :43:19.did not look like he was doing that, he looked like he was playing for
:43:20. > :43:25.time. And the Tory argument, we will tell you in three weeks what is the
:43:26. > :43:31.problem. It is not bad, is it? That is what the Tories do. They govern,
:43:32. > :43:35.they have statecraft. Hang on, we have got an Autumn Statement in
:43:36. > :43:39.three weeks, we will tell you. That comes with a certain arrogance of
:43:40. > :43:44.power which the Tories are very good at. Last week, they were in a
:43:45. > :43:45.terrible place, this week they are playing for time. We will have to
:43:46. > :43:46.leave it there. but stay tuned for coverage of
:43:47. > :43:50.Scottish Questions from Westminster. Thanks for being with us.
:43:51. > :43:54.Goodbye.