:00:18. > :00:25.Welcome to Politics Scotland, coming up on the programme: This is the
:00:26. > :00:35.scene live at Holyrood as the last budget before the referendum comes
:00:36. > :00:38.before MSPs. Campaigners say a little bit of history has been made
:00:39. > :00:41.as Scotland becomes the 17th country in the world to pass same-sex
:00:42. > :00:43.marriage legislation. Here at Westminster, the referendum debate
:00:44. > :00:56.is hotting up. Top energy company boss and the politicians both pitch
:00:57. > :00:59.in. Hello. MSPs are today expected to back the Scottish Government's
:01:00. > :01:02.budget, a ?30 billion package of public spending for the year ahead.
:01:03. > :01:08.We'll have the budget debate live from the chamber and speak to some
:01:09. > :01:11.MSPs who'll be voting on it. But first, our political commentator for
:01:12. > :01:15.the afternoon, David Clegg, the political editor of the Daily Record
:01:16. > :01:16.is here to give a budget briefing. What is happening at Holyrood this
:01:17. > :01:19.afternoon? Last-minute negotiations going on about the budget. The main
:01:20. > :01:22.details of this we have known for some time. There were changes about
:01:23. > :01:26.childcare and free school meals made just a few weeks ago. At the minute
:01:27. > :01:31.the discussions are largely focussing on the bedroom tax, which
:01:32. > :01:35.may see Labour voting for the SNP's budget for the first time. The
:01:36. > :01:41.bedroom tax has been a huge political issue? At the Daily Record
:01:42. > :01:46.we have been campaigning against the bedroom tax. We are delighted we
:01:47. > :01:55.will get a victory here. There will be extra money to the full effects
:01:56. > :01:59.are met indicated. The mechanism is quite interesting because it depends
:02:00. > :02:05.how they are allowed to do that? Obviously, welfare is not a devolved
:02:06. > :02:09.issue. It's not really within the Scottish Parliament's remit they are
:02:10. > :02:11.usinglet housing payment system, payments made to people struggling
:02:12. > :02:15.to pay their rent. There is a cap on that. Little bit of tinkering around
:02:16. > :02:26.to do to see how they will get this money out. We will be back with you
:02:27. > :02:30.shortly. First of all, as promised, let's speak to some MSPs who will be
:02:31. > :02:34.voting on the budget. Brian Taylor, our political editor, is standing by
:02:35. > :02:38.with a choice selection of them at Holyrood. Choice indeed. Mr Stewart.
:02:39. > :02:41.The budget targeted towards jobs, your Conservative opponents are
:02:42. > :02:46.saying not enough is being done on the jobs front? Targeting jobs and
:02:47. > :02:51.social justice, in terms of free school meals, the extension of
:02:52. > :02:54.childcare and of course trying to mitigate that bedroom tax even
:02:55. > :02:59.further. It would be better if we had all of the powers to abolish the
:03:00. > :03:03.bedroom tax, but I think Mr Swinney will announce today we will do
:03:04. > :03:08.everything possible to mitigate that bedroom tax. Straight to that,
:03:09. > :03:13.Jenny. The measures to mitigate the so-called bedroom tax. Labour has
:03:14. > :03:16.been discussing behind-the-scenes We had an amendment down today that we
:03:17. > :03:19.hope the Government will vote for. Labour have been working with John
:03:20. > :03:24.Swinney to see if he will come up with the money to mitigate the
:03:25. > :03:30.affects of the bedroom tax. It's having a devastating affect on the
:03:31. > :03:35.communities across Scotland. We are optimistic the government will
:03:36. > :03:40.support it. Wasn't there mutual suspicion you were play games about
:03:41. > :03:43.the constitution as well? Our priority has been to mitigate the
:03:44. > :03:47.affects of the bedroom tax for communities across country. We
:03:48. > :03:51.worked with the SNP, we worked hand and hard. You were challenging them
:03:52. > :03:54.saying they could use existing powers.
:03:55. > :03:57.saying they could use existing back independence? When the budget
:03:58. > :04:01.was published there wasn't one penny to mitigate the affects of the
:04:02. > :04:06.bedroom tax. We are hoping today - There was, there was ?20 million in
:04:07. > :04:10.the budget to mitigate the bedroom tax. The discussions have been
:04:11. > :04:14.ringed about trying to increase that funding. Not when it was first
:04:15. > :04:20.published. Through direct housing payments. We don't have that power.
:04:21. > :04:26.The Cabinet secretary has asked Lord Freud for that power. The best thing
:04:27. > :04:32.would be to abolish than mitigate it. Defend the abolition, with the
:04:33. > :04:36.draw of the spare room subsidies? It's not my position to do so. It's
:04:37. > :04:39.a deal set up between the Labour Party and the SNP. At a time when
:04:40. > :04:43.the British economy is coming uft recession and growing faster than
:04:44. > :04:46.any other country in Europe we should take the opportunity to
:04:47. > :04:50.achieve the maximum benefit from that - In terms of the economy, the
:04:51. > :04:56.British economy is doing less well than every other G7 country bar
:04:57. > :05:00.Italy. The British economy is booming and here in Scotland Labour
:05:01. > :05:07.and the SNP are trying to out flank each other on the left. Do you think
:05:08. > :05:12.the tax, the withdrawal of the spare room subsidy is that justifiably?
:05:13. > :05:15.The policy is perfectly justifiably. There are people in overcrowded
:05:16. > :05:20.situations in Scotland today who need larger accommodation. We need
:05:21. > :05:25.to get under occupation squeezed out of the system. As a party you are
:05:26. > :05:29.not happy with the withdrawal of the bedroom tax. What do you think of
:05:30. > :05:38.the efforts by Labour and the SNP in this budget to mitigate in Scotland?
:05:39. > :05:41.In a year where politics is more decisive parties are am coulding
:05:42. > :05:49.together to address what are seen as issues of importance
:05:50. > :05:54.movement on the issue of childcare. Your party has pushed for this?
:05:55. > :05:57.Absolutely. In a letter sent before Christmas there were four key points
:05:58. > :06:01.set out. Childcare, free school meals, as per south of the border,
:06:02. > :06:05.additional money into colleges and additional money going into housing
:06:06. > :06:09.for social rent. What we have seen is movement on all of those. That I
:06:10. > :06:13.think is progressive. For a range of reasons, the Liberal Democrats and
:06:14. > :06:17.Labour look like finding themselves potentially in a position to back
:06:18. > :06:21.this budget, your party does not? No, we are not prepared to back a
:06:22. > :06:25.budget that doesn't take the opportunities presented by recovery.
:06:26. > :06:31.We want more done see we have growth in the Scottish economy. The best
:06:32. > :06:37.form of welfare is a job. ?8 billion in capital investment over two years
:06:38. > :06:43.while the budget is cut by 1 % in real terms. It's consistently the
:06:44. > :06:49.policy of this government to complain and find solutions. Party
:06:50. > :06:52.is likely to back this budget, you retain reservations? We have been
:06:53. > :06:55.clear to the start if John Swinney can find the money to mitigate the
:06:56. > :06:59.devastating affects of the bedroom tax we would be prepared to support
:07:00. > :07:05.the budget. I hope if the SNP do that tonight we can vote for the
:07:06. > :07:11.budget. Found yourself in a bind potentially voting against childcare
:07:12. > :07:15.and free school meals, voting against so-called goodies? I don't
:07:16. > :07:18.think that is the case. We wanted the money to go into childcare. They
:07:19. > :07:24.are good things. The important thing is that the bedroom tax is mitigated
:07:25. > :07:29.tonight and tend for Scots. If we could abolish the bedroom tax I wish
:07:30. > :07:35.we had the power to do so - A Labour Government will do that 2015. Sooner
:07:36. > :07:37.than you could. She is talking about nonsense about the economy of the UK
:07:38. > :07:43.at this moment. Is nonsense. We growing a lot less faster than any
:07:44. > :07:48.other G7 growing a lot less faster than any
:07:49. > :07:53.everything it can to boost that economy. ?8 billion in capital
:07:54. > :07:56.investment. The retention of the small business bonus which is
:07:57. > :08:01.helping small businesses. On that point. We are not out of the woods,
:08:02. > :08:05.what we are seeing is business confidence, we are seeing
:08:06. > :08:08.unemployment down, employment up. A range of factors showing we are in
:08:09. > :08:13.the right direction. The SNP predicted we would be in recession
:08:14. > :08:20.almost permanently. Now they seem to be hell bent on talking the economy
:08:21. > :08:23.down. George Osborne's policies are working for Scotland. We need to
:08:24. > :08:27.work in tune with them, not against them. That is what this budget does.
:08:28. > :08:31.On this economic point? There is a decent budget. We will be supporting
:08:32. > :08:35.it tonight. We could do better. Our priority is to see an end to the
:08:36. > :08:40.bedroom tax. If that happens, that is why we will support it. Final
:08:41. > :08:44.word, you want to get to the chamber. We need to see a complete
:08:45. > :08:49.change of tact. No austerity. The only way to do that is with an
:08:50. > :08:52.independent Scotland. To all four. Heads being shaken vigorously at the
:08:53. > :08:58.other side there. Thank you to all four. They have to rush off to catch
:08:59. > :09:04.John Swinney's opening statement. Frankly, so do I. Back to the
:09:05. > :09:09.studio. Thank you for that. Is Is I'm joined by David K Clegg from the
:09:10. > :09:14.Daily Record. Interesting to hear the de ence from Mr Johnson. He was
:09:15. > :09:18.putting the point it helps maybe people to move to other
:09:19. > :09:21.accommodation when the UK is coming out of recession. Perhaps it helps
:09:22. > :09:28.the economy to cut the deficit? Both of those points are nonsense. There
:09:29. > :09:31.is no houses for them to move into. It's not saving any money. It's
:09:32. > :09:35.costing money at the minute. His defence of the bedroom tax is
:09:36. > :09:40.ludicrous. Secondly, we had the Labour Party and the SNP having a
:09:41. > :09:43.little bit of constitutional bickering about how we are sorting
:09:44. > :09:48.out the bedroom tax. It would be very nigh evil to expect in the
:09:49. > :09:52.current political climate there wouldn't be constitutional prism
:09:53. > :09:55.this is viewed by. One of the things both parties deserve credit for,
:09:56. > :09:59.despite they came together and sorted the problem out. Which is
:10:00. > :10:04.what the people of Scotland wanted. Let's hear from the Finance
:10:05. > :10:09.Secretary, John Swinney. He's now speaking there. Let's hear from him.
:10:10. > :10:13.Show that the policies of the Scottish Government to create
:10:14. > :10:17.employment and boost the economy are delivered the progress flird our
:10:18. > :10:21.economic recovery strategy. Over the next two years we will support the
:10:22. > :10:26.economy by securing more than ?8 billion of investment in Scotland's
:10:27. > :10:28.infrastructure, supporting 50,000 equivalent jobs across the wider
:10:29. > :10:34.economy. We will invest in our schools, our hospitals, in
:10:35. > :10:38.affordable housing with over ?970 million in investment in affordable
:10:39. > :10:44.housing in the three years to March 2015 and a further ?120 million to
:10:45. > :10:49.help first-time buyers and existing homeowners to buy a new build home.
:10:50. > :10:52.We will deliver creator connectivity through significant investment in
:10:53. > :10:58.our transport infrastructure and providing... By providing superfast
:10:59. > :11:02.broadband to 95% of premises in Scotland by the end of 2017-18,
:11:03. > :11:06.exceeding the Government's targets that have been set. We will continue
:11:07. > :11:09.to invest in the transition to a low-carbon economy and we will
:11:10. > :11:16.increase our investment in active and sustainable travel to almost ?60
:11:17. > :11:20.million from between 2015-15 and 2015-16. We will ensure that there
:11:21. > :11:24.is greater community involvement in the design and delivery of healthy
:11:25. > :11:28.livingle and active travel measures as part of integrated approach
:11:29. > :11:31.across Government reflecting the policy priorities out if me by the
:11:32. > :11:33.Scottish Green Party during the budget process. We are investing
:11:34. > :11:35.Scottish Green Party during the heavily in our young people funding
:11:36. > :11:40.a record number heavily in our young people funding
:11:41. > :11:44.apprenticeships and assisting in the development of the key interventions
:11:45. > :11:51.to support young people into employment through the Opportunities
:11:52. > :11:55.For All Initiative. We wait for the Wood Commission on developing
:11:56. > :11:58.Scotland's young workforce. We will bring forward swift measures and
:11:59. > :12:02.appropriate resources to act on the final report from the Commission in
:12:03. > :12:07.partnership with the convention of local authorities and Scotland's
:12:08. > :12:09.education and business communities. Our consistent theme in this
:12:10. > :12:16.Government's approach to the economy is the support we can offer to boost
:12:17. > :12:22.women participation in the labour market. We are providing over ?190
:12:23. > :12:26.million to our partners in local government to increase early
:12:27. > :12:32.learning and childcare provision to 600 years, saving families around
:12:33. > :12:38.?700 a year. In January, we announced a further ?15 million
:12:39. > :12:45.investment in 2014-15 to dlaifr a phased expansion of elgentleman
:12:46. > :12:55.biblt to the most vulnerable four to five-year-olds. -- eligibility. Can
:12:56. > :12:59.I particularly welcome that announcement made in January. He
:13:00. > :13:03.mentioned about the benefits there are to parents being able to get
:13:04. > :13:08.back to work. Can he recognise that a boost in early education for young
:13:09. > :13:13.people can make a big impact on the early years. Professor Hickman said
:13:14. > :13:17.the best educational investment is before the age of three, does he
:13:18. > :13:25.agree with me? I certainly accept the point that is made by Mr Renny.
:13:26. > :13:29.It accords very clearly with the thinking taken forward by my
:13:30. > :13:33.colleague, the Minister for Young People in the
:13:34. > :13:34.colleague, the Minister for Young collaborative, which is an excellent
:13:35. > :13:38.example of how we collaborative, which is an excellent
:13:39. > :13:41.and motivating all relevant playerses to support the nurture and
:13:42. > :13:49.development of our youngest citizens. The point he makes in that
:13:50. > :13:51.respect is a point well made. He has persisted with pressing the
:13:52. > :13:56.arguments around the expansion of childcare. I pay tribute to the
:13:57. > :14:00.construction -- constructive contribution he made to the budget
:14:01. > :14:04.process. Ministers have invited him to participate in the discussions
:14:05. > :14:07.with partners around the delivery of our commitments on childcare. We
:14:08. > :14:11.look forward to continuing our partnership working on this
:14:12. > :14:15.particular issue to deliver the commitments that the Government has
:14:16. > :14:20.made to parliament around expansion of early years education. This
:14:21. > :14:23.Presiding Officer is a budget that delivers the measures to maintain
:14:24. > :14:27.Scotland's position as the most competitive place for doing
:14:28. > :14:31.business. With the UK's most generous package of business rates
:14:32. > :14:35.relief worth over ?590 million a year offered right here in Scotland.
:14:36. > :14:40.With our partners in local government and our enterprising
:14:41. > :14:42.skills agencies we are investing in Scotland's economic growth while
:14:43. > :14:45.ensuring that our people are qualified and able to take advantage
:14:46. > :14:54.of the opportunities that will follow.
:14:55. > :15:00.Scottish Government is determined to do all it can to tackle inequality
:15:01. > :15:03.in the country. At a time when the UK government seems increasingly
:15:04. > :15:09.intent on dismantling the welfare state and has provided -- presided
:15:10. > :15:14.in an 8% fall over real earnings, we have maintained commitment to public
:15:15. > :15:19.services and the social wage, our social contract with the people of
:15:20. > :15:24.Scotland. The budget reflects our commitment to a locally owned NHS
:15:25. > :15:28.and a properly funded government, in contrast to the approach taken by
:15:29. > :15:30.the UK government. We are continuing to work with
:15:31. > :15:36.the UK government. We are continuing government to deliver a council tax
:15:37. > :15:40.freeze, saving the average household ?1200 by the end of this current
:15:41. > :15:46.Parliament. You're supporting students with our commitment to free
:15:47. > :15:50.education, and free personal care and free prescriptions. From next
:15:51. > :15:56.January, we will fund free school meals for all school children in
:15:57. > :16:06.primary 1-3. These measures, Presiding Officer,
:16:07. > :16:10.will provide valuable support to people across Scotland. There will
:16:11. > :16:15.be further challenges our people face, and the Scottish government is
:16:16. > :16:23.acting to limit the extent to which the welfare reforms undermine our
:16:24. > :16:26.approach. Within our limited devolved powers, we have established
:16:27. > :16:32.a council tax scheme supporting over 500,000 people who would otherwise
:16:33. > :16:37.have seen the benefit cut by the UK government. We have provided advice
:16:38. > :16:42.for the benefit agencies to meet the pressure on them and have backed the
:16:43. > :16:48.welfare fund to help those encountering difficulties. We are
:16:49. > :16:53.determined to do all that we can to help mitigate the effects of reform,
:16:54. > :16:57.but the scale of the challenge is literally enormous. Reform would
:16:58. > :17:02.remove an estimated ?4.5 billion from the Scottish economy and the
:17:03. > :17:12.Chancellor has announced further cuts over 2016-2018. He quoted a
:17:13. > :17:18.figure of 4.5 billion. Out of that 4.5 billion, how many have the
:17:19. > :17:23.Scottish Government pledged to reverse with independence? What I am
:17:24. > :17:26.Scottish Government pledged to damage that has been done to the
:17:27. > :17:36.people the United Kingdom. That is the
:17:37. > :17:40.reality that Mr Brown cannot avoid. We must be clear that we will never
:17:41. > :17:44.be able to mitigate all of the damaging effects of welfare reform
:17:45. > :17:49.and any resources we deployed are at the expense of other services we
:17:50. > :17:55.could support within areas of responsibility. Over the period
:17:56. > :18:01.2013-2016, this government will spend over ?244 million on
:18:02. > :18:04.alleviating the impact of welfare reform, resources we could have
:18:05. > :18:09.spent on devolved services had they not been required to safeguard
:18:10. > :18:15.vulnerable people in Scotland. One of the key elements of welfare
:18:16. > :18:18.reform has been the Bedroom Tax. The Bedroom Tax is an iniquitous and
:18:19. > :18:25.damaging policy. I have had constructive conversations with the
:18:26. > :18:28.Labour Party on mitigating it. I have looked carefully at this issue
:18:29. > :18:33.to ensure we have a robust way to offer further support. I think it is
:18:34. > :18:37.now accepted across the chamber that the only measure available to
:18:38. > :18:44.provide money directed tenants and prevent them entering a position of
:18:45. > :18:49.indebtedness is through discretionary housing payments. As
:18:50. > :18:56.Parliament knows, we are limited in our abilities by the imposed by the
:18:57. > :19:02.Department of work and pensions. On the latest data available from the
:19:03. > :19:07.DWP, we are constrained to a legal maximum of ?22.85 million. It is an
:19:08. > :19:12.increase from the original proposal of ?20 million. I confirm that we
:19:13. > :19:17.are now allocating this increased budget some today. This takes the
:19:18. > :19:25.total support that can be provided to ?38 million. Even
:19:26. > :19:28.total support that can be provided is ?12 million short of the
:19:29. > :19:32.estimated ?50 million needed to fully mitigate the Bedroom Tax in
:19:33. > :19:36.Scotland. The deputy first minister wrote to Lord Freud to ask them to
:19:37. > :19:42.remove the cap on the additional funding we can provide. That is a
:19:43. > :19:46.simple thing for Westminster to do at absolutely no cost to them and
:19:47. > :19:53.could be completed by the 1st of April. Was that the first time the
:19:54. > :20:03.Scottish Government had formally requested the lifting of the? -- the
:20:04. > :20:10.cap. The issues have been discussed at various meetings but the first
:20:11. > :20:14.formal request was in the letter we issued on Friday. That was John
:20:15. > :20:18.Swinney speaking in the debate on the budget. Some interesting
:20:19. > :20:24.information on the mitigating effect of the Bedroom Tax. After a long
:20:25. > :20:28.process, the Scottish Parliament has voted in favour of legalising
:20:29. > :20:33.same-sex marriage. The legislation was passed last night by 105 votes
:20:34. > :20:39.to 18, despite opposition from a small number of MSPs and religious
:20:40. > :20:46.groups. The first same-sex marriages could take place this
:20:47. > :20:51.year. Religions can already refuse to marry people. Or me, this bill is
:20:52. > :20:58.about equality, fairness and social justice. -- for me. They are values
:20:59. > :21:03.instilled in us by our parents, community, society. It is also about
:21:04. > :21:09.how we see ourselves as a nation, and how others see us. There has
:21:10. > :21:12.been a huge change in my lifetime, from the brittle atmosphere that
:21:13. > :21:17.existed in respect of gay people when I was a young man, gay people
:21:18. > :21:21.who felt they had to strangle their sexuality. I know some of these
:21:22. > :21:27.people, I'm in the Tory Party, after all. But I regard today as a
:21:28. > :21:35.fantastic, celebratory change in the mood, style and signature of my
:21:36. > :21:40.country, Scotland. Ideally, we all want a society where everyone is
:21:41. > :21:44.treated equally and minority views are tolerated if not welcomed,
:21:45. > :21:48.however, the fear among some people is might see a switch from LG BT
:21:49. > :21:54.people being discriminated against two religious or other people being
:21:55. > :21:58.discriminated against. We see some of the other countries where the
:21:59. > :22:02.fight for equality is not about pensions and inheritance. It is
:22:03. > :22:07.about life and death. I believe it is important, as we welcome some
:22:08. > :22:11.countries where people are struggling with that question of
:22:12. > :22:17.life and death, as we welcome some of those countries to Glasgow, we
:22:18. > :22:22.take pride in telling the particular story of Scotland's progress from a
:22:23. > :22:25.country that felt it was unable to decriminalise homosexuality at the
:22:26. > :22:29.same time as the rest of the UK, from societies in which in Glasgow
:22:30. > :22:40.and Edinburgh people felt it was not safe to have a march, progress to
:22:41. > :22:45.this. Men and women have new cars to hope for their future, the wondrous
:22:46. > :22:52.possibilities that present themselves. -- new cause. I have
:22:53. > :22:56.cause for optimism for my future, perhaps a personal advert in the
:22:57. > :23:02.Scotsman. 45-year-old male seeks husband to share his life and
:23:03. > :23:08.passions, must like a good debate but not take himself too seriously.
:23:09. > :23:14.Presiding Officer, I jest, but this is a profound moment in the nation.
:23:15. > :23:17.While we do not live in a society yet free from discrimination, this
:23:18. > :23:23.is a creating a Scotland based on the
:23:24. > :23:29.first principles of fairness and justice for all. This bill
:23:30. > :23:34.diminishes the deeply held views of those who consider marriage between
:23:35. > :23:38.a man and a woman and there is nothing fair in causing those
:23:39. > :23:43.opposed to same-sex marriage to feel apprehensive about expressing this
:23:44. > :23:47.view, yet this is the situation which will now prevail in Scotland.
:23:48. > :23:57.I was christened in the United free Church and married there, but I
:23:58. > :24:06.always remember the philosophy in that village and in many villages,
:24:07. > :24:14.if we had a model, it was to live and let live. -- motto. My belief is
:24:15. > :24:19.that people of the same sex can only fully live out their aspirations,
:24:20. > :24:25.potential, show their love, I being able to marry their partner, the
:24:26. > :24:32.person they love of the same sex. -- by being able. But also, let live,
:24:33. > :24:38.let live those who want to get married to someone of the same sex,
:24:39. > :24:47.who want to perform the marriages of people with the same sex, but also,
:24:48. > :24:51.let live those in favour of that, those who will not because of
:24:52. > :24:59.religious belief, do not force them to do something they don't want to
:25:00. > :25:05.do, and if ever there was something that summed it up, it is live and
:25:06. > :25:11.let live. I believe when the history of this Parliament is written,
:25:12. > :25:16.today, if we pass this bill, as I believe we will, this will be one
:25:17. > :25:17.today, if we pass this bill, as I Parliament, not just because of the
:25:18. > :25:25.provisions of the bill but because of the message the bill sends out
:25:26. > :25:30.about the new Scotland we are creating in the 21st century, as
:25:31. > :25:37.Scotland where we all believe in live and let live. APPLAUSE.
:25:38. > :25:49.The result of the vote in the name of Alex Neill is as follows. Yes,
:25:50. > :25:55.105, No, 18. There were no abstentions. The bill is passed.
:25:56. > :26:09.APPLAUSE. That was the debate yesterday. Now
:26:10. > :26:17.the main story, the budget debate live in the chamber. Let us listen
:26:18. > :26:22.in. They were adamant that this was it UK Government measure and he
:26:23. > :26:27.would not let them off the hook. It was the 80,000 households affected
:26:28. > :26:31.who were left on the hook of the Bedroom Tax, and in fairness, by
:26:32. > :26:36.October, the government had relented and found ?20 million in the budget.
:26:37. > :26:43.Still short of what was required. In December, the Cabinet Secretary
:26:44. > :26:46.argued Social Security legislation meant this could not be further
:26:47. > :26:52.increased, and when I argued otherwise, I also recall the Deputy
:26:53. > :26:56.first Minister, from a sedentary position, heckling me with the cry,
:26:57. > :27:04.where is the money coming from? The fact is, I always had confidence in
:27:05. > :27:05.John Swinney, more confidence it would seem that his Cabinet
:27:06. > :27:13.colleagues, confident he would seem that his Cabinet
:27:14. > :27:14.the fund to complete the total ?50 million
:27:15. > :27:22.the fund to complete the total ?50 the cost of the Bedroom Tax to
:27:23. > :27:27.Scottish tenants. This week, the same Deputy first Minister popped up
:27:28. > :27:34.in the daily record to say the money was there, as John Swinney is
:27:35. > :27:39.confirmed. The DWP must be lifted. We have always said that there are
:27:40. > :27:43.other legitimate ways to use this money to help the victims of the
:27:44. > :27:51.Bedroom Tax. Last week, we presented to the Cabinet Secretary a proposal
:27:52. > :27:55.for an additional scheme with two elements, one for local authorities
:27:56. > :28:01.and one for housing associations. The proof that this can work is that
:28:02. > :28:05.it already does. In Renfrewshire Council and East Lothian housing
:28:06. > :28:12.association, both have been checked by audit Scotland and lawyers. They
:28:13. > :28:16.write off small amounts of arrears rather than paying penance and do
:28:17. > :28:26.not fall foul of benefit legislation. I welcome his
:28:27. > :28:32.acceptance of the intervention. I wonder if Iain Gray would reflect on
:28:33. > :28:41.what is more desirable response to the difficulties individual s face,
:28:42. > :28:47.is it to increase discretionary payments or to let people fall into
:28:48. > :28:51.debt and then write off the arrears? It is clearly always better to avoid
:28:52. > :29:01.debt but the important thing is come what may, we do the thing which we
:29:02. > :29:02.want to do, and I have to say that the Cabinet Secretary has considered
:29:03. > :29:05.the scheme presented to him with the Cabinet Secretary has considered
:29:06. > :29:11.understandable caution but a the Cabinet Secretary has considered
:29:12. > :29:15.amendment reflects those discussions that we have had. With thanks to
:29:16. > :29:21.Renfrewshire Council and East Lothian housing association for
:29:22. > :29:26.their help, we are almost there. The full funding is in place and if the
:29:27. > :29:30.DWP restriction remains then a workable alternative exists is, and
:29:31. > :29:37.the amendment in Dorset is the position. Like Mr Swinney, I want to
:29:38. > :29:51.see the abolition of this policy. -- endorses. I want to see it abolished
:29:52. > :29:56.by a Labour government next year. I understand that Mr Swinney and his
:29:57. > :30:01.colleagues want to see it abolished in 2016 in an independent Scotland.
:30:02. > :30:06.I think my way is better, cause it will lift the York from tenants in
:30:07. > :30:11.London and Manchester and Birmingham. -- yoke.
:30:12. > :30:21.To be honest, I think those affected are not too worried about who does
:30:22. > :30:26.it, and we can decide today that no household in Scotland need pay the
:30:27. > :30:34.Bedroom Tax and none should face eviction because of it and we
:30:35. > :30:40.should. To do that, we must act justly, love kindness and what
:30:41. > :30:44.humbly and support the amendment. Act justly because most of the
:30:45. > :30:49.victims cannot choose to move to a smaller house because there are no
:30:50. > :30:54.such houses available to them. Justly, because with full funding,
:30:55. > :31:00.there is no need to choose who to help and who not to help. Justly,
:31:01. > :31:02.because this protection from eviction will extend towards
:31:03. > :31:06.because this protection from tenants and not just tenants of
:31:07. > :31:09.councils with no eviction policies. As for kindness, to support this
:31:10. > :31:15.amendment is to explicitly reject the cruelty of an all too common
:31:16. > :31:21.rhetoric which suggests that those affected by welfare reforms are
:31:22. > :31:27.feckless benefit scroungers living in palatial accommodation. The truth
:31:28. > :31:33.is, most families affected by the Bedroom Tax are working, 80% of
:31:34. > :31:36.family members -- 80% have a family member with a disability, and the
:31:37. > :31:41.spare room is needed for medical equipment or carers.
:31:42. > :31:45.Both we and the Government will have to walk Humpleby today. They will
:31:46. > :31:49.have to set aside the constitutional argument and accept that getting
:31:50. > :31:53.tenants off the hook is more important than leaving Whitehall on
:31:54. > :31:59.it. While we must acknowledge that in this, at least, the Government
:32:00. > :32:06.has not left Scotland on pause, but has acted and done the right thing.
:32:07. > :32:13.Now, even greater humility will be required if the Tories or Liberal
:32:14. > :32:17.Democrats are to support our amendment tonight. Given that it is
:32:18. > :32:20.only needed because of the wrong headed policy of their Westminster
:32:21. > :32:26.colleagues. I hope that they will consider it. Presiding officer,
:32:27. > :32:31.yesterday was a good day for this parliament. In the passing of the
:32:32. > :32:35.equal marriage act, we rose to the singular historic moment. We were
:32:36. > :32:41.the parliament we were meant to be, shaping a more modern, ive Scotland.
:32:42. > :32:48.Today, we can rise above party difference again and do the right
:32:49. > :32:53.thing again, this time, in response, not to the historical moment, but to
:32:54. > :32:59.the daily, relentless, unfair, difficulties and challenges of life
:33:00. > :33:06.faced by far too many of our fellow citizens. We can be the parliament
:33:07. > :33:13.we were set up to be again today, exercising our power to protect our
:33:14. > :33:21.people. To paraphrase, the nearest thing this place has to a prophet of
:33:22. > :33:30.his own, I can hear him snorting at the description, we can carry
:33:31. > :33:39.ourselves well again today. Was Labour's Ian Gray. You can watch the
:33:40. > :33:41.rest of that debate live or on demand at BBC Scotland's Democracy
:33:42. > :33:44.Live website, that's bbc.co.uk/democracylive. Let us
:33:45. > :33:48.speak to our commentator David Clegg once again. From the Daily Record,
:33:49. > :33:53.the political editor. Interesting watching that debate. A strong
:33:54. > :33:57.speech from Ian Gray there, building up the opposition to the so-called
:33:58. > :34:00.bedroom tax? That is about passionate and motivated as you see
:34:01. > :34:04.him in the chamber. I thought he spoke very well. The politics of
:34:05. > :34:07.this is very interesting. John Swinney's whole budget he outlined
:34:08. > :34:12.there, it is a budget for independence. It is, here's what the
:34:13. > :34:15.UK Government are doing, here is what we are doing differently,
:34:16. > :34:20.imagine what we could do with independence. By getting rid of the
:34:21. > :34:23.bedroom tax they undermine that argument. I think it's very
:34:24. > :34:28.interesting. They will do it because they have to do it and because I
:34:29. > :34:36.think morally they want to do it. It's an interesting day of politics
:34:37. > :34:39.there. Do you think the SNP were frustrated they were able to get rid
:34:40. > :34:42.of it in this way because it's maybe going against the grain, the
:34:43. > :34:45.narrative of, look at what Westminster is doing, we can do
:34:46. > :34:50.things better if we have the full powers? N-a cynical moment I think
:34:51. > :34:54.that argument can be made. I'm going to be uncharacteristically uncynical
:34:55. > :35:00.and say, no I think they will be glad to get rid of. It They are
:35:01. > :35:03.still saying that removele the cap on Discretionary Housing Payments is
:35:04. > :35:07.the best way to do this. I think they are right about that. There
:35:08. > :35:13.will be difficulties with the alternatives and whether it will get
:35:14. > :35:18.swiftly to the people through these other methods is vague to me. It's
:35:19. > :35:21.happening. Confusing about how this money will be allocated to people
:35:22. > :35:30.because we are hearing from John Swinney saying the UK Government had
:35:31. > :35:36.the cap of course. David Mindell said in the House of Commons today,
:35:37. > :35:40.in a question from the SNP MP, the issue was debated in detail
:35:41. > :35:43.yesterday. She should know that the Scottish Government has the powers
:35:44. > :35:48.to take measures if they genuinely believe there are concerns with
:35:49. > :35:52.welfare policies. It's like the UK Government thought the Scottish
:35:53. > :35:56.Government could tackle this? They are trying to have their cake and
:35:57. > :36:02.eat it. There he is saying you can still do this. He is not explaining
:36:03. > :36:06.how it's done and they are seemingly, I mean they haven't seen
:36:07. > :36:10.the letter back from Lord Freud, the UK minister responsible for this,
:36:11. > :36:13.I'm being told they are not going to lift. It one of the reasons that you
:36:14. > :36:17.want to lift it is because it allows you to allocate it in different
:36:18. > :36:22.ways. It's done through local authorities. Aberdeen may have more
:36:23. > :36:27.need of this than Aberdeenshire. If the cap goes entirely it can be
:36:28. > :36:32.allocated in a more efficient method. He said do it another way.
:36:33. > :36:35.Lift the cap, why don't you do it. We talked about Labour and the SNP,
:36:36. > :36:39.what about the other UK coalition parties, as it were, in the chamber
:36:40. > :36:45.at Holyrood. The Conservatives are almost left out in the cold, not
:36:46. > :36:49.ving for it. The Liberal Democrats voting for it essentially
:36:50. > :36:52.criticising UK Government policy, I suppose? They are in an awkward
:36:53. > :36:57.position suppose? They are in an awkward
:36:58. > :37:01.the bedroom tax is suppose? They are in an awkward
:37:02. > :37:04.have to support it because their Westminster colleagues are voting
:37:05. > :37:07.for it. You get the impression they are not comfortable with it. You
:37:08. > :37:13.would say if there were actual Liberal Democrats they would be.
:37:14. > :37:17.However, we should give credit to Willie Renny who pushed the
:37:18. > :37:21.childcare issue relentlessly since he was in the parliament he got a
:37:22. > :37:26.great result in the budget in that regard where the free childcare
:37:27. > :37:28.entitlement has gone up considerably. For that alone I think
:37:29. > :37:35.the Liberal Democrats will be happy to vote for him. Thank you very much
:37:36. > :37:38.To Prime Minister's Questions now. David Cameron told MPs he'll ensure
:37:39. > :37:41.that vulnerable communities receive all the support they need to deal
:37:42. > :37:45.with the threat of flooding. That was prompted by a question from the
:37:46. > :37:48.Labour leader, Ed Miliband, who then quickly moved onto the Tories' track
:37:49. > :37:56.record on women. The Prime Minister said in 2014 he was going to lead
:37:57. > :38:00.the way on women's equality. Can the Prime Minister tell us, how is that
:38:01. > :38:04.going in the Conservative Party? First of all, let me just go back to
:38:05. > :38:15.the very important issue of flooding. I want to... I'm glad he
:38:16. > :38:20.is asking me about constituency selection. I want to clarify the
:38:21. > :38:27.point about flooding. If you look at the period 2014-2014 when this
:38:28. > :38:30.Government was in office the funding was ?2.4 billion more than when
:38:31. > :38:35.Labour were in office. On the important issue of getting more
:38:36. > :38:39.women into public life. Yes, this is fantastically important for our
:38:40. > :38:43.country because we will not represent or govern our country
:38:44. > :38:50.properly unless we have more women at every level in our public life
:38:51. > :38:56.and in our politics. Now, I'm proud of the fact
:38:57. > :39:03.and in our politics. Now, I'm proud women MPs has gone from 17 to 48,
:39:04. > :39:08.but we need to do much more. Look at the all male frontbench before us.
:39:09. > :39:17.He says he wants to represent the whole country. Mr Speaker, I guess
:39:18. > :39:20.they didn't let women into the Bull ngdon Club either. He said a third
:39:21. > :39:23.of his ministers would be women. He is nowhere near meeting the target.
:39:24. > :39:27.Half of the women he appointed as ministers after the election have
:39:28. > :39:32.resigned or been sacked. His Cabinet, get this, Mr Speaker, in
:39:33. > :39:38.his Cabinet there as many men who went to Eton or Westminster as
:39:39. > :39:40.women. That is the picture. Does he think it's his fault that the
:39:41. > :39:47.Conservative Party has a problem with women? He is interested in the
:39:48. > :39:53.figures. Let me give him the figures. Of the full members of the
:39:54. > :39:57.Cabinet who are Conservatives. 24%, a quarter of them are women. Not
:39:58. > :40:01.enough. I want to see that grow. Of the frontbench, frontbench
:40:02. > :40:06.ministers, of the Conservatives, around 20% are women, that is below
:40:07. > :40:09.what I want to achieve in 33%. We are making progress and we'll make
:40:10. > :40:16.more progress. Let me make this point. This party is proud of the
:40:17. > :40:21.fact that we had a woman Prime Minister. Yes. Yes. To be fair to
:40:22. > :40:25.the Labour Party, they have had some interim leaders who are women, but
:40:26. > :40:30.they have this habit of replacing them with totally ineffective men.
:40:31. > :40:40.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Royal Mail shares are currently trading at
:40:41. > :40:44.387p, 80% higher than the Government sold iroff their share. Does he
:40:45. > :40:46.believe his Government properly valued Royal Mail and
:40:47. > :40:49.believe his Government properly was set at the best deal to get the
:40:50. > :40:52.best deal for the taxpayer? I think the Government did a good job to
:40:53. > :40:57.best deal for the taxpayer? I think private-sector capital into Royal
:40:58. > :41:00.Mail, something which frankly has evaded the governments of all
:41:01. > :41:03.colours and all persuasions for decades. I well remember sitting on
:41:04. > :41:08.that side of the House and hearing about the appalling losses in Royal
:41:09. > :41:12.Mail, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of pounds. The fact that
:41:13. > :41:16.it's well managed, well run with private-sector capital in in it is a
:41:17. > :41:21.great development for our country. In the Chancellor's budget of 2012
:41:22. > :41:27.he made an announcement for tax breaks for the computer games
:41:28. > :41:32.industry. It was passed last April. We have heard nothing. It hes having
:41:33. > :41:34.a detrimental effect on industry. Can the Prime Minister and the
:41:35. > :41:41.Chancellor do something to address this delay? I absolute slid share
:41:42. > :41:45.his frustration. It's perfectly within a Government's rights to set
:41:46. > :41:48.out a way of helping and supporting vital industries like this that is
:41:49. > :41:51.are so important for the future of our country. We are discussing it
:41:52. > :41:56.with the European Commission, we are hopeful of good news to come
:41:57. > :42:00.shortly. That was Prime Minister Prime Minister's Questions. Our
:42:01. > :42:04.Westminster correspondent, David Porter, is standing by at Portcullis
:42:05. > :42:07.House for us now to pick up on some Scottish political issues that are
:42:08. > :42:11.making the headlines. David. Thank you very much, indeed. We are in
:42:12. > :42:16.Portcullis House because the weather is bad in London. Nothing like some
:42:17. > :42:20.of the flooding and the problems we have seen elsewhere in the UK, but
:42:21. > :42:25.we thought we would be kind to our guests today and let them stay in
:42:26. > :42:33.the dry. My guests are Gordon Brang for Labour, Sir Malcolm Bruce for
:42:34. > :42:37.the Liberal Democrats and Mike Weir for the SNP. There is an independent
:42:38. > :42:42.Scotland, people in Scotland will pay more for their energy bills,
:42:43. > :42:49.what is the rational behind that? It's a significant
:42:50. > :42:53.what is the rational behind that? attracts a third of the UK
:42:54. > :42:57.investment in re ewable energy but pays through bill payers 10% of
:42:58. > :43:04.that. If Scotland was independent, the rest of the UK couldn't possibly
:43:05. > :43:08.be expected to pick up that slack. Citigroup estimated that could be
:43:09. > :43:11.?875 on to each and every bill? Scotland. That is a significant
:43:12. > :43:15.intervention and a significant problem for Scottish bill payers and
:43:16. > :43:20.the renewable energy. Your opponents will say, Scotland has the potential
:43:21. > :43:24.to be an energy powerhouse in the long run, Scotland would give more
:43:25. > :43:30.than it gets back? Only if it can develop it. They can only develop it
:43:31. > :43:35.if they fund it. This intervention by Caroline proves how fragile that
:43:36. > :43:38.is. If that is added to every bill in significant that is a significant
:43:39. > :43:42.impact on the cost of living in Scotland. Is that an ark ument you
:43:43. > :43:45.buy on behalf of the Liberal Democrats and an MP who represents a
:43:46. > :43:49.constituency which has quite important energy interests? I think
:43:50. > :43:53.it's another of those uncertainties about independence. The reality is,
:43:54. > :43:57.it's true that the investment is being funded by UK taxpayers. In the
:43:58. > :44:01.long run, the question is whether they will be prepared to do that.
:44:02. > :44:06.Scotland may export to the UK, it has to do a deal. One. Things that
:44:07. > :44:10.has to be answered all along is, autumn the promises have been made
:44:11. > :44:13.those in favour of independence how it will be, depending on the rest of
:44:14. > :44:18.the UK agreeing. That is not in Scotland's gift. It's not in the
:44:19. > :44:21.Scottish nationalist gift. People in Scotland when they vote have to
:44:22. > :44:23.recognise they will find themselves effectively in a situation where
:44:24. > :44:27.they have to influence the rest of the UK. That is a good reason for
:44:28. > :44:34.staying in I would argue rather than going out. We have heard there that
:44:35. > :44:36.actually people in Scotland could be potentially a lot worse off or
:44:37. > :44:43.having to pay higher energy bills? potentially a lot worse off or
:44:44. > :44:48.the contract for difference works. potentially a lot worse off or
:44:49. > :44:52.difference is not bill payers in one part of the country subsidising the
:44:53. > :44:56.other. It's the cheapest option for everybody. It works by guaranteeing
:44:57. > :45:01.a price for the energy. Energy comes from all over the place, UK
:45:02. > :45:05.Government, for example, are entering into an agreement for wind
:45:06. > :45:10.energy from Ireland. The rest of the UK has a problem, what does it do,
:45:11. > :45:14.do it take energy from Scotland or is it blinkered it wants to take it
:45:15. > :45:20.from the Europe that it wants to get out of and spend billions upon
:45:21. > :45:24.billions on new connectors. The rest of the UK needs Scotland's are you
:45:25. > :45:26.newable energy they will be locked into expensive nuclear power and the
:45:27. > :45:37.myth of fracking. Is there is no guarantee that if
:45:38. > :45:46.Scotland went independent the rest of the UK would want to take energy
:45:47. > :45:50.from Scotland. They need to look at where the best option for energy is,
:45:51. > :45:56.that is continuing the energy market through the interconnector. It is
:45:57. > :46:01.the only one that makes sense. There are already getting into trouble in
:46:02. > :46:07.Europe, with the state aids difficulties. The UK government are
:46:08. > :46:10.going down the route of massively expensive nuclear power which will
:46:11. > :46:17.put out bills throughout Scotland if that goes because that is what they
:46:18. > :46:22.are relying on. Renewable is working in Scotland, we have the most in
:46:23. > :46:25.Europe and it makes sense to come together on this and do a deal and I
:46:26. > :46:34.don't see there would be any great difficulty on that. It takes two to
:46:35. > :46:38.make a deal. On so many issues, the SNP are saying we will have an
:46:39. > :46:44.agreement, maybe we will, maybe we won't, it will be hard bargaining,
:46:45. > :46:49.uncertain, it will take time and the whole of the UK will have a vote on
:46:50. > :46:53.this, not just Scotland. Keeping with the energy theme, you mentioned
:46:54. > :47:00.the term uncertainty, that was used yesterday by the boss of BP, saying
:47:01. > :47:04.there could be uncertainties in an independent Scotland. I worried
:47:05. > :47:08.should people be about this? I think what was said yesterday was just
:47:09. > :47:11.backing up what the government and Bank of England said, that there are
:47:12. > :47:17.significant uncertainties for Scotland going independent, and
:47:18. > :47:22.these cannot be answered by the SNP, they have to be cantered with an
:47:23. > :47:26.agreement -- decided with an agreement between the rest of the UK
:47:27. > :47:29.and an independent Scotland. There is no guarantee that these will be
:47:30. > :47:34.reached in the way that the SNP cross their fingers and hope they
:47:35. > :47:39.will be. Going back to the point, why should the rest of the UK bill
:47:40. > :47:44.payers finance and develop and pay for a renewable industry in Scotland
:47:45. > :47:49.when they can get the renewable energy from elsewhere on the
:47:50. > :47:53.continent? It doesn't make sense to stand here and say that the rest of
:47:54. > :48:00.the UK will buy the renewable energy from Scotland. BP is the largest
:48:01. > :48:04.employer in my constituency. I know for a fact that many people in the
:48:05. > :48:09.oil industry are very concerned. The fact is, we have to compete for
:48:10. > :48:16.investment globally, if you add in cost and uncertainty, you will look
:48:17. > :48:20.and say, maybe we will invest in Scotland but maybe we will invest
:48:21. > :48:26.elsewhere. It adds another uncertainty into the decision-making
:48:27. > :48:29.in competitive market. I'm afraid, that is absolute nonsense. Look at
:48:30. > :48:36.the latest round of that is absolute nonsense. Look at
:48:37. > :48:41.investment coming into the North Sea, huge interest in it. What the
:48:42. > :48:45.BP chairman cites as an uncertainty is links with Europe. It is the
:48:46. > :48:53.Conservative government that wants to get out of Europe. Coming back to
:48:54. > :49:00.the points about energy, the UK could choose to take energy from
:49:01. > :49:03.France if it wants, there will be investment into interconnector is
:49:04. > :49:06.because it could not carry that energy. The reality is the
:49:07. > :49:12.infrastructure is there, the systems will be there, it is a sensible way
:49:13. > :49:19.to deal with it, and when the mist clears, everybody will see sense.
:49:20. > :49:23.Brief question to each of you, is it right that businessmen get involved
:49:24. > :49:26.in the referendum debate? Absolutely, business has got a role
:49:27. > :49:32.to play in the referendum and businesses should be able to enter
:49:33. > :49:38.into the debate, make their points clear, without fear of reprisal from
:49:39. > :49:46.the Scottish government or anybody else. I absolutely agree, and I am
:49:47. > :49:49.concerned that many businesses are fearful, they feel they are being
:49:50. > :49:56.bullied and prejudiced, it is good that it takes one of the Chief
:49:57. > :50:01.Executive is to speak out. Business is a part of the discussion, there
:50:02. > :50:04.are 1400 members of business for Scotland, the pro-independence
:50:05. > :50:08.business group. As this is on both sides of the debate, not one or the
:50:09. > :50:12.other, and it is right that they make their views known, but this is
:50:13. > :50:18.a debate we should all have throughout Scotland. Thank you. We
:50:19. > :50:19.end on a point of agreement, businesses should get involved in
:50:20. > :50:25.the referendum debate. I'm joined by David Clegg once
:50:26. > :50:40.again. I'm joined by David Clegg once
:50:41. > :50:44.about BP. Interesting that he chose to step forward and speak about the
:50:45. > :50:49.uncertainty. I think it is a significant intervention, he is the
:50:50. > :50:53.most significant businessmen to enter the debate so far, massive
:50:54. > :50:57.employer. What I find quite interesting is he is not the only
:50:58. > :51:02.one. There has been quite a few interventions from businesses. We
:51:03. > :51:06.had the outgoing chief executive of Sainsbury is talking about his
:51:07. > :51:11.concerns about independence. Up till now, the Better Together campaign
:51:12. > :51:16.have been pretty upset privately that businesses have not had more to
:51:17. > :51:26.say about this, because privately they tend to either express
:51:27. > :51:33.misgivings. I think the recent speech from Mark Carney has put a
:51:34. > :51:37.rocket up these businesses and I think we will see more of these
:51:38. > :51:42.kinds of interventions. The prounion MPs were making the point that some
:51:43. > :51:46.businesses feel they have been bullied into not speaking, but
:51:47. > :51:52.others are quite worried about not wanting to offend their customers.
:51:53. > :51:57.It is probably good business sense not to speak. Bully is a strong word
:51:58. > :52:05.to use without evidence. It is obviously a very feeble rail debate,
:52:06. > :52:09.very passionate, -- febrile. Businesses are wary of getting
:52:10. > :52:17.involved because the upsides are limited. Mike Weir was making the
:52:18. > :52:22.point that the withdrawal from the EU also causes uncertainty.
:52:23. > :52:25.Certainly, what we have at the minute is the independence
:52:26. > :52:26.referendum is closer on the horizon so that is more in the forefront of
:52:27. > :52:26.their so that is more in the forefront of
:52:27. > :52:35.businesses talking about uncertainty so that is more in the forefront of
:52:36. > :52:42.caused it this, we will see them saying it about the EU referendum.
:52:43. > :52:48.When you saw Alex Salmond's reaction, you did not look best
:52:49. > :52:52.pleased. He said BP make a lot of money from using Scotland's
:52:53. > :52:58.resources. They do make a lot of money. I can understand why Alex
:52:59. > :53:02.Salmond would be upset because it is pretty damaging, the fact that they
:53:03. > :53:06.also employ a lot of people and generate a lot of money, I don't
:53:07. > :53:10.think he was suggesting they should not have something to say about it,
:53:11. > :53:20.but it is a case that they should be very willing. Thank you. BBC
:53:21. > :53:26.Scotland investigations have found fraud in the NHS has risen by 42% in
:53:27. > :53:31.the last few years. A Freedom of information request recorded ?2
:53:32. > :53:36.million of fraud by health workers and patients. It has been estimated
:53:37. > :53:42.the actual cost could be ?800 million a year. Fiona Walker begins
:53:43. > :53:50.the report with a look at dental fraud. This person's teeth were
:53:51. > :53:53.being damaged. The dentist was carrying out work that was not
:53:54. > :54:00.necessary. You have an onward spiral, doing more treatment, to the
:54:01. > :54:05.deterioration of the treatment. We are told, each time he did this it
:54:06. > :54:09.made him more money. This is the dentist he is talking about. Stewart
:54:10. > :54:16.Craig. Not only was he struck off, he was convicted for fraud against
:54:17. > :54:18.the NHS in court for claiming the cost of gold crowns when he fitted
:54:19. > :54:22.cheaper ones. I am ashamed that any cost of gold crowns when he fitted
:54:23. > :54:29.The fraud was officially recorded at cost of gold crowns when he fitted
:54:30. > :54:33.just over ?2000 by cost of gold crowns when he fitted
:54:34. > :54:38.health board. But the NHS actually believed he conned them out of
:54:39. > :54:44.?750,000. They are now pursuing the money. What is recorded as fraud is
:54:45. > :54:48.not the whole picture. A leading expert says his calculations show us
:54:49. > :55:00.the true scale of this kind of crime. We are currently finding just
:55:01. > :55:06.under 7% on average of expenditure is lost to fraud. 7% of the whole
:55:07. > :55:15.NHS budget? That is what I would expect to see. That is ?800 million
:55:16. > :55:21.a year. That is enough to pay for 70 -- 37,000 new nurses. The
:55:22. > :55:27.consequences are pure care for all of us when we are sick when we need
:55:28. > :55:33.it most. -- poor care. Behind-the-scenes, it is the job
:55:34. > :55:38.under investigators -- job of investigators to put them off. We
:55:39. > :55:44.are focusing on deterrence or people do not commit the fraud. It protects
:55:45. > :55:48.the health service. The NHS says Stewart Craig has not paid back up
:55:49. > :55:52.any of the money they say he owns them. We discovered he has moved
:55:53. > :55:58.property out of his name and has not responded to our letters. You can
:55:59. > :56:06.watch the programme in full tonight on BBC One Scotland. Some final
:56:07. > :56:13.thoughts from David Clegg. Quite astonishing to see the extent of
:56:14. > :56:19.fraud. 37,000 nurses, 60 hospitals. It must be a huge worry. On the face
:56:20. > :56:27.of it, it is staggering. 7% of the budget, especially at a time when we
:56:28. > :56:30.of it, it is staggering. 7% of the pushed, nursing colleges are saying
:56:31. > :56:34.they are pushed to the very limit. I look forward to seeing the full
:56:35. > :56:39.thing tonight but on the face of it that looks very concerning. In some
:56:40. > :56:45.ways, politicians will say things need to be done but what can you do?
:56:46. > :56:51.I'm not going to be undertaking any fraud audit, but it certainly looks
:56:52. > :56:57.like, if it is on that scale, it must be so rife that you feel it can
:56:58. > :57:04.be clamped down on. One thing you hear about the NHS is that it can be
:57:05. > :57:08.wasteful and inefficient, so perhaps this is one of the things that is
:57:09. > :57:11.happening, they do not have the same safeguards. In the closing minutes
:57:12. > :57:18.of the programme, one final issue, Ed Miliband changing the leader
:57:19. > :57:23.voting system for the Labour Party, moving to one member, one vote. This
:57:24. > :57:29.is not the system that voted him in in the first place. He would
:57:30. > :57:33.certainly not be the leader if the system he is bringing in was in
:57:34. > :57:39.place. I think he has been forced into this. The Falkirk episode was
:57:40. > :57:44.such a disgrace and has been an ongoing headache, it will not go
:57:45. > :57:48.away and we saw it in the news again this week. Quite opportunistically,
:57:49. > :57:55.somebody has leaked that at the right time, but when you have seen
:57:56. > :58:02.the allegations going on there, this public perception of it was such
:58:03. > :58:06.that he needed to take action. They will want to do something about it.
:58:07. > :58:10.So this will be approved at a special conference in March but of
:58:11. > :58:15.course it will not come in for another five years. It is being
:58:16. > :58:16.phased in gradually. The main concern is union affiliated members
:58:17. > :58:28.and how they parliamentary selection processes.
:58:29. > :58:31.He has said that some people wanted to review it after that five-year
:58:32. > :58:35.period so they could see how it was working, but that is not going to
:58:36. > :58:43.happen. It sounds like he will win that battle. We will have to leave
:58:44. > :58:47.it there. That is all we have time for. Holyrood is on holiday next
:58:48. > :58:50.week so we don't have a programme but we will be back the following
:58:51. > :58:54.week. Goodbye.