:00:16. > :00:18.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:19. > :00:22.Coming up on the programme this afternoon: Her government
:00:23. > :00:25.will stand up for the weak and stand up to the powerful,
:00:26. > :00:27.Theresa May tells her party conference.
:00:28. > :00:30.But is the new prime minister's pose as champion
:00:31. > :00:33.of the dispossessed credible - or ludicrous?
:00:34. > :00:35.And is the Scottish Government's Finance Secretary showing
:00:36. > :00:43.Theresa May has given her speech to close the Conservative party
:00:44. > :00:47.She says it's the Tories who are now the party of ordinary
:00:48. > :00:49.working class people, that the Brexit vote
:00:50. > :00:58.was a vote for change and that change is going to come.
:00:59. > :01:08.In this week, some big questions were hanging in the air. Do we have
:01:09. > :01:16.a plan for Brexit? We do. All we ready for the effort it will take to
:01:17. > :01:20.see it through? We are. Can Boris Johnson stay on message for a full
:01:21. > :01:31.four days? APPLAUSE
:01:32. > :01:45.Just about. But I know there is another big question people want me
:01:46. > :01:50.to answer. What is my vision for Britain? My philosophy? My approach?
:01:51. > :01:56.Today, I want to answer that question very directly. I want to
:01:57. > :02:03.set out my vision for Britain after Brexit. I want to lay out my
:02:04. > :02:07.approach things I believe, I want to explain what a country that works
:02:08. > :02:11.for everyone means. For the referendum was not just a vote to
:02:12. > :02:16.withdraw from the EU, it was about something broader, something the
:02:17. > :02:24.European Union has come to represent. It was about a sense,
:02:25. > :02:28.deep, profound and, let's face it, often justified, that many people
:02:29. > :02:34.have today, that the world works well for a privileged few but not
:02:35. > :02:36.for them. It was a vote not just to change Britain last night
:02:37. > :02:40.relationship with the EU, but to call for a change in the way our
:02:41. > :02:48.country works and the people for whom it works forever. Our economy
:02:49. > :02:51.should work for everyone. But if you are Paea has stagnated for several
:02:52. > :02:57.years and fixed items of spending keep going up, it doesn't feel like
:02:58. > :03:01.it is working for you. -- if your pay. Our democracy should work for
:03:02. > :03:06.everyone. If you've been trying to say things did change for years and
:03:07. > :03:12.your complaints following deaf ears, it doesn't feel like it is working
:03:13. > :03:16.for you. And the roots of the revolution run deep because it
:03:17. > :03:20.wasn't the wealthy who made the biggest sacrifices after the
:03:21. > :03:32.financial crisis, but ordinary working-class families.
:03:33. > :03:37.APPLAUSE And if you're one of those people
:03:38. > :03:43.who lost their job, who stayed in work on reduced hours, took a pay
:03:44. > :03:47.cut as household bills rocketed, or, and I know of people don't like to
:03:48. > :03:53.admit this, someone who find themselves out of work or lower wage
:03:54. > :03:57.is because of low skilled immigration, life simply doesn't
:03:58. > :04:04.seem fair. It feels like your dreams have been sacrificed in the service
:04:05. > :04:06.of others. So change has got to come.
:04:07. > :04:21.APPLAUSE And if we believe in the goods that
:04:22. > :04:26.Government can do, it is important for people to trust us to deliver
:04:27. > :04:31.the change they need. We can start, as I said on Sunday, by doing
:04:32. > :04:36.something obvious to stop quibbling, respect what the people told us on
:04:37. > :04:45.the 23rd of June, and take Britain out of the European Union.
:04:46. > :04:51.APPLAUSE Because it took that typically
:04:52. > :04:57.British quiet resolve for people to go out and vote as they did to defy
:04:58. > :05:02.the establishment and ignore the threats and make their voice heard.
:05:03. > :05:08.So let us have that same resolve now, let's be clear about what is
:05:09. > :05:12.going to happen. Article 50 triggered no later than the end of
:05:13. > :05:15.March. A great repeal bill to get rid of the European communities act,
:05:16. > :05:22.introduced in the next parliamentary session. Laws made, not in Brussels,
:05:23. > :05:34.but in Westminster. APPLAUSE
:05:35. > :05:42.Our judges sitting not in Luxembourg, but in court across the
:05:43. > :05:46.land. It is, of course, too early to say exactly what agreement we will
:05:47. > :05:50.reach with the EU. It is going to be a difficult the gauche Asian and
:05:51. > :05:54.will require some give and take. While there will always be pressured
:05:55. > :06:00.to give a running commentary, it will not be in our national interest
:06:01. > :06:03.to do so. Let me be clear about the agreement we see, I wanted to
:06:04. > :06:08.reflect the strong and mature relationships we enjoy with our
:06:09. > :06:11.European friends. I want it to include corporation on law
:06:12. > :06:16.enforcement and counterterrorism work and involve free trade in goods
:06:17. > :06:19.and services and to give British companies the maximum freedom to
:06:20. > :06:25.trade with and operate within the single market and let European
:06:26. > :06:29.businesses do the same here. But let's state one thing loud and
:06:30. > :06:36.clear: We are not leaving the European Union only to give up
:06:37. > :06:41.control immigration all over again. And we're not leaving only to return
:06:42. > :06:45.to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, that is not going
:06:46. > :06:50.to happen. We are leaving to become, once more, are fully sovereign and
:06:51. > :06:56.independent country and the deal is going to have to work for Britain.
:06:57. > :06:57.Theresa May giving a speech to the Conservative conference. Afresh as
:06:58. > :06:59.leader. Now, speaking before the prime
:07:00. > :07:01.minister, the Scottish Conservative leader spoke passionately
:07:02. > :07:03.about defending the union Ruth Davidson told Conference,
:07:04. > :07:06.that the majority of Scots are telling the First Minister
:07:07. > :07:17.to let go of planning another I am aware how the Scottish politics
:07:18. > :07:22.can sometimes look. You have seen Nicola Sturgeon on the television
:07:23. > :07:27.retailing news and is up in arms, again. Threatening the break-up of
:07:28. > :07:33.Britain, asserting that independence is closer now than ever before,
:07:34. > :07:37.declaring that separation is somehow inevitable. Today, speaking to be
:07:38. > :07:42.from across the UK, I want to make this clear: Don't believe a word of
:07:43. > :07:53.it. There is nothing... APPLAUSE
:07:54. > :07:58.There is nothing inevitable about the wake of this great nation and I
:07:59. > :08:02.for one will fight it with every inch and so will thousands of Scots
:08:03. > :08:12.with me. APPLAUSE
:08:13. > :08:17.The SNP does not speak for all of Scotland, nor does it have the right
:08:18. > :08:21.to. Every nation is bigger than one party, bigger than one person. And
:08:22. > :08:27.Scotland is bigger, more varied, more complex than the nation the SNP
:08:28. > :08:32.would like to pretend. Next time you seen Nicola Sturgeon picking a fight
:08:33. > :08:36.or trying to claim that the UK is over, remember, she does not speak
:08:37. > :08:40.for the country. And when she threatens to put yet another
:08:41. > :08:43.divisive referendum back on the table the nation is not behind her.
:08:44. > :08:48.She is not speaking for the majority because the majority wants us to
:08:49. > :08:52.move on. The majority have no wish to return to the divisions of the
:08:53. > :08:58.past, we want to seize the opportunity of the future. Most
:08:59. > :09:01.Scots have had enough. And they are telling her, for pity's stake, let
:09:02. > :09:16.this go. APPLAUSE
:09:17. > :09:23.And the problem is that the SNP isn't listening, instead they are
:09:24. > :09:29.determined to keep the divisions over the last few years alive. I am
:09:30. > :09:33.often accused by those same opponents, those ardent separatists
:09:34. > :09:37.that I bank on about independence in the union as much as they do but for
:09:38. > :09:43.so long as the SNP keeps us alive, so be it because the union matters
:09:44. > :09:46.so much. It matters for economic stability and jobs that our
:09:47. > :09:49.partnership brings, it matters for the defence and security of our
:09:50. > :09:55.country and matters because of the common bonds we share right across
:09:56. > :10:01.the UK. And it matters perhaps even more so now that we are leaving the
:10:02. > :10:06.EU. You all know where I stood on the referendum in June. I tell you
:10:07. > :10:11.this: I did not vote Remain to see my Butko opted in a fresh SNP
:10:12. > :10:21.independence drive. -- to see my vote brought into. I can to use
:10:22. > :10:26.something else: Whatever questions Brexit raises, none of them, not a
:10:27. > :10:31.single one, is answered by destroying our own union of Nations.
:10:32. > :10:35.I urged the SNP Government instead of focusing on a second referendum
:10:36. > :10:40.that isn't wanted, why not get back to the day job instead? We will make
:10:41. > :10:46.Britain a country that works not for the privileged few, but for of us.
:10:47. > :10:51.That is noble, that is right, and that is true. In the months and
:10:52. > :10:58.years ahead it must be our guiding principle. More than that, it is our
:10:59. > :11:02.duty. Conference: That is why I'm in politics, it is why Theresa May is
:11:03. > :11:05.in politics and why you are too. Not for my own ambitions goals but
:11:06. > :11:08.because I believe it is our values and mission and our beliefs that
:11:09. > :11:15.will make this country a better place. So I'll goals are clear, our
:11:16. > :11:20.resolve is firm and together every one of us, let us get down to that
:11:21. > :11:25.work and bills that better future. Thank you, so much.
:11:26. > :11:31.Listening to that is Scottish Secretary David Mundell.
:11:32. > :11:39.Elsewhere in that speech Ruth Davidson made it clear she wanted
:11:40. > :11:43.immigrants to feel welcome in this country and in particular she wanted
:11:44. > :11:47.the British Government to give guarantees to people from Europe who
:11:48. > :11:54.are already living here. Would you agree with her on that? Of course I
:11:55. > :11:58.agree with her on that and it is something I've said before and
:11:59. > :12:03.something rehearsed set. It is what the Prime Minister said she wants to
:12:04. > :12:07.be able to give people from the EU who are already in the UK the
:12:08. > :12:11.guarantee that they can stay but she also wants to ensure that British
:12:12. > :12:16.citizens who are overseas in the EU can stay there as well. I hope we
:12:17. > :12:20.can get that issue resolved quickly. People who are already here are very
:12:21. > :12:26.welcome everyone them to stay and we want to resolve the issue of people
:12:27. > :12:30.from the UK who are in the EU. There is no prospect now on the broader
:12:31. > :12:35.issue of free movement of Labour which Ruth Davidson said she
:12:36. > :12:38.supports during the referendum campaign, the SNP Government
:12:39. > :12:41.Scotland supports free movement of Labour, there is a zero prospect of
:12:42. > :12:47.that continuing given what we've heard from the Tory party
:12:48. > :12:52.conference? The Prime Minister on Sunday set out the basis for moving
:12:53. > :12:57.forward with the negotiations. As she has said again that speech,
:12:58. > :13:03.there is not going to be a running commentary on those negotiations,
:13:04. > :13:09.having set the view... She said in the speech that Britain should take
:13:10. > :13:12.back control. Yes, exactly, that is what we want to do and we will make
:13:13. > :13:19.the decisions about the people who come from the EU into the UK. We are
:13:20. > :13:25.now going to go forward with the negotiations on the timetable at the
:13:26. > :13:31.Prime Minister has set out but I think it is clear that post-deal,
:13:32. > :13:36.whatever framework that takes, people will still be coming from the
:13:37. > :13:41.EU to the UK to work, it would just be the basis on which they are doing
:13:42. > :13:44.so that will have changed depending on employment or study
:13:45. > :13:51.opportunities, for example. Now, the suggestion from Michael Russell, the
:13:52. > :13:56.Brexit Minister on Sunday" as Government, that this great repeal
:13:57. > :14:01.lock could be voted down by the Scottish Government, what did you
:14:02. > :14:04.make of that? There seems to be a consensus that could be overruled by
:14:05. > :14:07.the British Government, but nonetheless, it would be pretty
:14:08. > :14:13.embarrassing if the Scottish parliament were to vote it down,
:14:14. > :14:16.wouldn't it? I think we're in a position where everyone agrees the
:14:17. > :14:24.Scottish parliament doesn't have any veto over Britain leaving the EU. Of
:14:25. > :14:28.course it will have its say, debates, it will have votes. I would
:14:29. > :14:31.be very surprised if there are votes in the Scottish parliament given its
:14:32. > :14:36.make up that goes against what might be the UK Government position. What
:14:37. > :14:42.is clear is the Scottish parliament will not have a veto over the
:14:43. > :14:47.process of the UK leaving the EU. Should the British Government allow
:14:48. > :14:51.the Scottish parliament even to vote on this or do you think they should
:14:52. > :14:57.find some way of avoiding that situation arising in the first
:14:58. > :14:59.place? It is not for the British Government or anyone else to tell
:15:00. > :15:04.the Scottish parliament wanted votes on. These are matters for the
:15:05. > :15:08.Scottish Parliament to determine. I certainly want to tell them what to
:15:09. > :15:14.say, not because I know they wouldn't listen to it but because I
:15:15. > :15:18.respect their right to make their own decisions and choices and
:15:19. > :15:24.express their own views. But, the framework for leaving the EU is
:15:25. > :15:29.quite clear in the sense that it is a UK Government responsibility to
:15:30. > :15:32.negotiate this arrangement and implement this arrangement and the
:15:33. > :15:37.Scottish parliament does not have a veto. That said, I still remain and
:15:38. > :15:41.am very confident that we will be able to engage fully with the
:15:42. > :15:46.Scottish Government in the process because despite a lot of' we see in
:15:47. > :15:50.public behind-the-scenes we have a very good working relations with the
:15:51. > :15:53.Scottish Government officials and the meetings I've had with Mike
:15:54. > :15:57.Russell were very positive and the meeting with David Davis was very
:15:58. > :16:01.positive, think we will see engagement as we move forward and I
:16:02. > :16:06.very much want to see that happening.
:16:07. > :16:17.Are you saying the Scottish Government's bark is worse than its
:16:18. > :16:21.bite? I am saying that behind the scenes, the Scottish Government are
:16:22. > :16:25.approaching these discussions in a professional way. We all know that
:16:26. > :16:30.that doesn't mean that politics will not intervene. It may well intervene
:16:31. > :16:35.in the sense that despite doing a lot of legwork behind the scenes,
:16:36. > :16:42.despite coming up with agreed positions, those might not be
:16:43. > :16:47.politically acceptable. But I am confident that if we want to work
:16:48. > :16:51.together to have this team UK approach, it can be achieved. People
:16:52. > :16:55.in Scotland realised that the way to get the best deal for Scotland is
:16:56. > :17:00.for both governments to work together, not to be engaged in
:17:01. > :17:03.politicking and point-scoring and needless rows. David Mundell, thank
:17:04. > :17:05.you. In the studio today we have
:17:06. > :17:15.political commentator You thought Ruth Davidson was
:17:16. > :17:19.sticking her neck out a bit on immigration, given that she was
:17:20. > :17:23.speaking before Theresa May. This has to be seen in context. Ruth
:17:24. > :17:27.Davidson was given the privileged position of being the warm up act
:17:28. > :17:32.for the new bra minister. Most people would just praise the Prime
:17:33. > :17:36.Minister and take a standing ovation and move on, and yet she made a
:17:37. > :17:39.deliberate attempt to say that as far as she is concerned, she wanted
:17:40. > :17:44.European citizens here to feel welcome, to feel it was their home
:17:45. > :17:48.and that an olive branch should be held out to immigration. That is
:17:49. > :17:53.very different from the message that has come across from the conference
:17:54. > :17:57.that has been led by Theresa May. It was a brave thing to do for the
:17:58. > :18:02.Scottish leader to set out such a different stance just before the
:18:03. > :18:09.Prime Minister spoke. What do you make of Theresa May's speech more
:18:10. > :18:13.generally? I suppose the big-ticket approach is that she's trying to
:18:14. > :18:17.redefine the Conservatives, something they have started to do
:18:18. > :18:20.since Brexit, trying to claim that they are now the party of the
:18:21. > :18:24.working class, that they represent the interests of working people, not
:18:25. > :18:29.Labour, with their wacky internationalist ideas. It was an
:18:30. > :18:33.appeal to old-fashioned blue collar Conservatism in one sense. In
:18:34. > :18:40.political terms, it was more than that. Theresa May has seen whether
:18:41. > :18:43.votes were in the Leave campaign in the EU referendum, and she has said,
:18:44. > :18:48.we need to appeal to those people. By doing so, she is also trying to
:18:49. > :18:52.undermine the appeal that Ukip has the right wing working class
:18:53. > :18:57.conservative base, and tried to take votes away from Labour. Politically,
:18:58. > :19:03.it was spreading the conservative wings towards labour and towards
:19:04. > :19:11.Ukip and also distancing herself from the elitism that David Cameron
:19:12. > :19:16.perhaps came to embody. You could imagine measures to bring in extra
:19:17. > :19:21.money for areas where public services have been affected by
:19:22. > :19:31.immigration. They have already said Babel abandoned George Osborne's
:19:32. > :19:36.budget targets. You could see them trying to portray this as being
:19:37. > :19:41.nothing like David Cameron and George Osborne. But every time
:19:42. > :19:48.Theresa May mentioned the elites that people have rebelled against,
:19:49. > :19:52.back to a big point of the Leave campaign, I couldn't help but think
:19:53. > :19:56.she was referring to David Cameron, George Osborne and perhaps even
:19:57. > :20:00.Boris Johnson. But you are right, the real test is not the rhetoric,
:20:01. > :20:04.but how she delivers. She talked about having a go at those corporate
:20:05. > :20:11.to avoid tax. Well, David Cameron said he would do the same, but did
:20:12. > :20:17.he? So the rhetoric was great, but the test will be in a few years'
:20:18. > :20:20.time, has she delivered? Dev. Away, we will come back to you.
:20:21. > :20:23.Well, what kind of reaction did that get from Westminster's
:20:24. > :20:33.Our Westminster correspondent David Porter is with a couple of them.
:20:34. > :20:39.The clearing up operation is under way. Most representatives have left.
:20:40. > :20:43.It is just her Majesty'sfourth estate who are still working hard
:20:44. > :20:47.when everyone else has gone home. How are they going to write the
:20:48. > :20:57.story tomorrow morning? Let's find out from two of my colleagues in the
:20:58. > :21:03.Scottish written press. Lindsay, two speeches from two leaders today.
:21:04. > :21:06.From a Scottish context, how did they do? They were both strong
:21:07. > :21:10.speeches, but there was clear water between the two of them,
:21:11. > :21:15.particularly on immigration. We have seen this row building up over the
:21:16. > :21:22.week, with interventions from Amber Rudd, Liam Fox. Four Ruth Davidson,
:21:23. > :21:27.the thing that stood out from her speech was deeply from the
:21:28. > :21:29.Conservative Party and to voters to remember the families behind the
:21:30. > :21:34.numbers when it comes to immigration. In contrast, Theresa
:21:35. > :21:38.May came across as hard line on immigration, as she did on Sunday
:21:39. > :21:45.when she gave her Brexit speech. So there is clear water between them.
:21:46. > :21:51.Ruth Davidson invoked the name of John Major about people coming into
:21:52. > :21:55.communities and making a contribution. Looking down the road,
:21:56. > :21:58.can you see that being a problem between London and Edinburgh as far
:21:59. > :22:03.as the Conservatives are concerned because of the difference in tone on
:22:04. > :22:08.immigration? Yeah. Migration is the new dividing line in Britain now,
:22:09. > :22:12.certainly when it comes to relations between Scotland and the UK or the
:22:13. > :22:15.Scottish Government and the UK. Obviously, Ruth did not get the
:22:16. > :22:21.anti-immigrant memo. She took her own line on it. That was a huge
:22:22. > :22:25.criticism from other ministers, whose anti-immigrant rhetoric was
:22:26. > :22:30.shocking. Ruth stood her ground and said migrants are welcome and
:22:31. > :22:34.foreign families and people who work here are welcome to stay. That is in
:22:35. > :22:40.contrast to what other ministers and Theresa May said. Both speeches were
:22:41. > :22:45.good. Ruth's speech was possibly the speech of the conference. Not if you
:22:46. > :22:51.are a nationalist, of course. But Theresa May had a friend of the
:22:52. > :22:56.working people, vicar's daughter image of a Britain that works for
:22:57. > :23:00.all. She will get that at a price. She has to make a deal with the
:23:01. > :23:03.snarling right-wing of the Tory party, who want hard Brexit and
:23:04. > :23:08.controls on migration and they want to play to the fears that were
:23:09. > :23:14.expressed in the Brexit vote, rather than confront the truth of
:23:15. > :23:17.migration, which is that migrants benefit the economy and Scotland
:23:18. > :23:22.would certainly be better off with more migrants. So May has done a
:23:23. > :23:25.deal, and Ruth has been the conscience of the party. The
:23:26. > :23:32.strength of the reaction on politicians in Scotland has been
:23:33. > :23:36.noticeable. Yes, immediate reaction almost as Theresa May was stepping
:23:37. > :23:40.off the stage. We got strong reaction from the First Minister.
:23:41. > :23:46.She branded it an ugly vision for Brexit. Kezia Dugdale picked up on
:23:47. > :23:52.another story about Diane James quitting as Ukip leader, saying that
:23:53. > :23:59.Theresa May is taking up that Ukip vacancy. So strong stuff from the
:24:00. > :24:04.Liberal Democrats as well. Strong criticism all round from the SNP,
:24:05. > :24:08.Lib Dems and Labour. I'm not surprised that Nicola Sturgeon has
:24:09. > :24:11.come out as strongly as she has, because it is another opportunity
:24:12. > :24:17.for her to distinguish Scotland, which voted Remain across the board
:24:18. > :24:22.in the EU referendum, from other parts of the UK, particularly
:24:23. > :24:24.England, saying that Scotland is different and we need a different
:24:25. > :24:31.solution in Scotland. She was banging the drum loudly today.
:24:32. > :24:37.Torcuil Crichton, it does set up a clear dividing line politically.
:24:38. > :24:42.Absolutely. Sturgeon has used the independence vote -- in the
:24:43. > :24:48.referendum vote to leave the independence case. And now there is
:24:49. > :24:52.another leave when it comes to opening up to migrants and closing
:24:53. > :24:56.down the anti-immigration rhetoric of Tory ministers. People in
:24:57. > :24:59.Scotland have concerns about migration as well, but politicians
:25:00. > :25:02.sometimes have to lead people on issues and not just become an echo
:25:03. > :25:11.chamber for their fears and concerns. People have concerns about
:25:12. > :25:13.immigration, their kids getting work and about competition for jobs and
:25:14. > :25:19.services, but sometimes leaders have to take people by the hand and
:25:20. > :25:23.explain. The Tory party have shown no sign of doing that apart from the
:25:24. > :25:33.mention Ruth Davidson made in her speech. They are playing to the
:25:34. > :25:37.Brexit drum. Theresa May has proved that they are all Brexiteers now in
:25:38. > :25:45.the Tory party. She has really embraced Brexit this week. There has
:25:46. > :25:49.been quite a sea change. Someone who was a reluctant Remainer Na seems to
:25:50. > :25:53.have thought, Brexit is going to happen, I am going to ride his
:25:54. > :25:58.horse. She has made the decision to grab the bull by the horns. She has
:25:59. > :26:03.looked at ease with the rhetoric this week. Perhaps that is all she
:26:04. > :26:07.can do. She has got the three Brexiteers probably pushing from one
:26:08. > :26:14.side, so she is playing into their hands. What did you make of Ruth
:26:15. > :26:21.Davidson's tactics to say very directly to Nicola Sturgeon, forget
:26:22. > :26:26.all this talk about independence - you concentrate on making sure you
:26:27. > :26:32.run Scotland properly? With the Brexit vote, it has obviously raised
:26:33. > :26:35.the prospect of a second independence referendum, Nicola
:26:36. > :26:40.Sturgeon saying after the result that another one was highly likely.
:26:41. > :26:45.But Ruth's woods today were probably two people in England, Wales and
:26:46. > :26:51.Northern Ireland more than people in Scotland. In Scotland, you can't get
:26:52. > :26:57.away from the prospect of a second independence referendum. Ruth could
:26:58. > :27:02.have made that speech any day of the week in Scotland. But this was her
:27:03. > :27:06.speaking to a UK audience, sending a message to the rest of Britain that
:27:07. > :27:13.there was more than one voice coming from Scotland, not just Nicola
:27:14. > :27:17.Sturgeon's. She set herself up by being the strong opposition, and
:27:18. > :27:21.here she was very shrewdly not just speaking to England about Scotland,
:27:22. > :27:26.but framing herself as a UK patriot, making herself look bigger on a
:27:27. > :27:31.British stage. Knew what Ruth Davidson. Watch where she will end
:27:32. > :27:39.up. She's the new Boris of the Tory party. They love her. She can say
:27:40. > :27:46.and do anything. Thank you for joining me. I will let you go and
:27:47. > :27:47.write your copy. Gordon, back to you.
:27:48. > :27:50.Now, plans to raise the council tax for the four highest bands
:27:51. > :27:53.MSPs on Holyrood's Local Government Committee voted to back
:27:54. > :28:03.Our Political Correspondent Andrew Kerr has more.
:28:04. > :28:13.This is a sort of rubber stamp for what we knew before. But a loss of
:28:14. > :28:17.MSPs would like more to be done. That's right. There is controversy
:28:18. > :28:23.about what the Scottish Government are proposing to do with the council
:28:24. > :28:28.tax. The SNP had been in favour of a local income tax and the Labour
:28:29. > :28:34.Party on the Scottish Greens favour more radical reform. But now the
:28:35. > :28:37.SNP, the Scottish Government, are saying they are going to increase
:28:38. > :28:43.the four highest bands. The finance secretary came before the local
:28:44. > :28:49.government committee Parliament today and this was rubber-stamped by
:28:50. > :28:54.them. It was voted through 4-2. But his opponents characterised this as
:28:55. > :28:59.a clever wheeze, because along with getting that money, ?500 million
:29:00. > :29:03.over the course of the Parliament, by raising those four bands, there
:29:04. > :29:09.will be ?100 million from an attainment fund that will be
:29:10. > :29:13.targeted at the poorest pupils and going directly to headteachers,
:29:14. > :29:18.using the free school meals as the determining factor. So the councils
:29:19. > :29:22.still get to keep all the money they raise, but the Scottish Government
:29:23. > :29:26.will decide through the revenue support grant how much money they
:29:27. > :29:31.received essentially. So those well of councils like East Renfrewshire
:29:32. > :29:35.or East Dunbartonshire will get less money through their support grant,
:29:36. > :29:42.but they are raising more money through their council tax. It is an
:29:43. > :29:47.interesting one. Some opposition have been opposed to this. The
:29:48. > :29:53.Conservatives say that is breaking local accountability. Others like
:29:54. > :29:55.the Greens and Labour want Scotland to do more with council tax.
:29:56. > :29:58.The Finance Secretary has promised to give MSPs more details
:29:59. > :30:01.on Holyrood's budget in an attempt to stave off a political row.
:30:02. > :30:04.Derek Mackay took part in a parliamentary debate
:30:05. > :30:06.led by the Finance Committee yesterday, and told MSPs
:30:07. > :30:08.he would provide additional "strategic information" to help them
:30:09. > :30:24.And I will committee supporter move towards a more flexible approach to
:30:25. > :30:27.financial security and scrutiny that might be carried out throughout the
:30:28. > :30:31.year? This should not be viewed as a replacement for scrutiny of the
:30:32. > :30:35.Government's actual spending proposals. The committee recognises
:30:36. > :30:40.that this year is different given the unique set of circumstances that
:30:41. > :30:47.currently exist as a consequence of Brexit is imminent -- and the
:30:48. > :30:50.imminent devolution for the tax powers, the committee sought to work
:30:51. > :30:55.with the Cabinet Secretary and considering what level information
:30:56. > :31:01.could reasonably be provided to support scrutiny top prior to the
:31:02. > :31:04.budget draft being published. The Cabinet Secretary informed the
:31:05. > :31:06.committee on the 7th of September that he would be willing to produce
:31:07. > :31:10.as much scenario planning information as possible. There
:31:11. > :31:17.followed an exchange of letters between the Cabinet Secretary and
:31:18. > :31:21.finance committee. Let me make it clear today as we did in our letter
:31:22. > :31:25.on the 21st of September that the committee would find it unacceptable
:31:26. > :31:28.if he confronts he is not prepared to publish any such information in
:31:29. > :31:34.advance of the draft budget being published. I reiterate my
:31:35. > :31:37.willingness to to provide the committee with additional Tijuca
:31:38. > :31:42.information to assist committees in preparing for the Autumn Statement
:31:43. > :31:45.and draft budget. It on the 7th of September I offered to provide
:31:46. > :31:48.further work and updated economic financial modelling that could
:31:49. > :31:53.provide analysis that demonstrates the impact in changes of economic
:31:54. > :31:58.performance would have on the Scottish budget. I can go further
:31:59. > :32:02.about the detail that the finance committee was requested but I
:32:03. > :32:05.certainly intend to the commitment made to the finance committee about
:32:06. > :32:10.providing further information, what I can't do is provide a draft
:32:11. > :32:14.spending plan and budget, that would be a draft budget. I will hold true
:32:15. > :32:19.to what I promised the finance committee and a happy to take
:32:20. > :32:22.intervention. I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for giving way. He
:32:23. > :32:27.knows very well the committee looked at that letter from him at the
:32:28. > :32:31.beginning of September and sent what it amounted to was unacceptable. He
:32:32. > :32:34.also goes before he gets to speak today that a majority of this
:32:35. > :32:38.Parliament have already formally recorded a for him to put scenario
:32:39. > :32:43.planning information indicative figures into the public domain by
:32:44. > :32:48.the end of the October recess. We could have pushed this and so
:32:49. > :32:52.dramatic headlines at the end of the day and a vote at five o'clock but
:32:53. > :32:56.we bent over backwards I think of the committee has, to give the
:32:57. > :32:59.Cabinet Secretary alternatives to producing a draft budgets because we
:33:00. > :33:04.understand the difficulty he is in. Is he not going to say anything
:33:05. > :33:07.following the position he offered at the beginning of September to go
:33:08. > :33:11.further than he has gone so far and allow Parliament to do it job in
:33:12. > :33:18.budget scrutiny? What I have said to the chamber is that I will honour
:33:19. > :33:21.the commitment given to the finance committee around sharing as much
:33:22. > :33:27.information as I possibly can. But I cannot produce a scenario plan that
:33:28. > :33:29.is a spending draft budget without having all of the information that
:33:30. > :33:36.will come from the Chancellor's Autumn Statement. The finance
:33:37. > :33:39.secretary had a choice when he came into the chamber 's afternoon to
:33:40. > :33:43.either listen to the Parliament which has expressed a number of
:33:44. > :33:49.signature is for the motion and offer concessions to meet Parliament
:33:50. > :33:53.and the finance committee halfway or can and brazen it out, I regret very
:33:54. > :33:58.much he decided to take the latter path in that debates afternoon and
:33:59. > :34:01.brazen it out. By refusing to publish as much information as
:34:02. > :34:05.possible in advance of the publication of the draft budget
:34:06. > :34:09.later this year Derek Mackay is treating this Parliament with
:34:10. > :34:13.contempt. Particularly since he is going back on a promise he has
:34:14. > :34:16.previously made to this Parliament. The late publication of the
:34:17. > :34:22.Chancellor's Autumn Statement has consequences for the budgets, of
:34:23. > :34:25.course, but it isn't sufficient justification for Derek Mackay's
:34:26. > :34:31.refusal to publish indicative figures and budget scenario planning
:34:32. > :34:35.information. As we have heard the Scottish Government has delayed its
:34:36. > :34:41.draft budget until December, leaving Holyrood's it is just a few weeks
:34:42. > :34:46.for scrutiny. Earlier this book to Derek Mackay and asked for his
:34:47. > :34:49.response to criticism he showed contempt for Parliament over his
:34:50. > :34:55.handling of the timetable. Finance committee itself recognised that I
:34:56. > :35:01.had a justifiable case to delay publishing the Scottish draft budget
:35:02. > :35:06.and until on to the Chancellor's autumn 's timid with a of Brexit
:35:07. > :35:09.adding uncertainty into the system. Finance committee said that the
:35:10. > :35:13.Niger likely to have a justifiable case that has been widely accepted.
:35:14. > :35:16.A recognised some members of Parliament were more information,
:35:17. > :35:19.they ask for most of scenario planning and have said I will
:35:20. > :35:23.provide that and have always tried to provide as much information as I
:35:24. > :35:27.possibly can but the crux of this issue is the Chancellor's Autumn
:35:28. > :35:32.Statement will be opportunity for UK Government to reset economic and
:35:33. > :35:36.fiscal policy, that is what they have said they would do. Or reason
:35:37. > :35:40.be the Chancellor said in this Tory party conference speech that the
:35:41. > :35:45.economy would face a roller-coaster ride. I expect some significant
:35:46. > :35:48.announcements in the Chancellor Bosma Autumn Statement which clearly
:35:49. > :35:53.impact the Scottish budget and is also closer to the forecast of the
:35:54. > :35:56.OBR that will drive the title's decisions and I think it is right
:35:57. > :36:00.and proper that three weeks after the Chancellor's Autumn Statement,
:36:01. > :36:04.which is a very significant in the chat calendar of decision-making for
:36:05. > :36:09.the UK Government and respect the Scottish Government so profoundly
:36:10. > :36:14.that I deliver a budget three weeks after that. What a variation are we
:36:15. > :36:18.talking bout roughly? When we take to get the new measures coming to
:36:19. > :36:24.the Scottish Parliament plus the fact that Philip Hammond has said he
:36:25. > :36:29.will not stick by George Osborne's austerity measures, what kind of
:36:30. > :36:34.magnitude of change are we speaking about? We don't know, which is why
:36:35. > :36:37.it is called uncertainty. The title and the Chief Secretary of the
:36:38. > :36:42.Church as Ray has not give me an indication of what it means for
:36:43. > :36:48.Scotland in the barn spending or for tax policy, revenue or capital. We
:36:49. > :36:50.don't really know what is coming in the Chancellor's Autumn Statement so
:36:51. > :36:55.I don't know what impact is about to be in Scotland but based on
:36:56. > :37:00.everything said publicly is likely to be significant of what we also
:37:01. > :37:04.know is all economic consensus is that of Brexit, the vote and
:37:05. > :37:07.outcome, will have a profound impact and a range of different scenarios
:37:08. > :37:12.on the UK and Scottish economy which will have to be taken into account
:37:13. > :37:18.in the Chancellor's decisions in October. Presumably when you and the
:37:19. > :37:24.officials are planning, are you assuming your budget will be cut in
:37:25. > :37:28.either cash or real terms or are you assuming you will have cash for
:37:29. > :37:34.real-time increases? There is already proposed by the UK
:37:35. > :37:38.Government terms reduction cash increase and there has been real
:37:39. > :37:41.terms reduction is to Scotland's budget and that is likely to
:37:42. > :37:46.continue. Are they abandoning their plans? The UK Government has said
:37:47. > :37:51.they are abandoning their targets on fiscal surplus, which is one bid of
:37:52. > :37:55.information but they don't say how they will achieve that what the
:37:56. > :38:00.current skills would be and we can only guess what that means for
:38:01. > :38:03.revenue and capital and really importantly on tax, whatever we do
:38:04. > :38:07.with these new powers coming to the Scottish Parliament on tax, what
:38:08. > :38:11.they do and we do is relative and I might not be able to generate more
:38:12. > :38:14.spending power or resources for Scotland if I don't know what the UK
:38:15. > :38:24.Government is about to do and we have no idea if Philip Hammond will
:38:25. > :38:28.follow the budget. When do you expect to be able to produce a draft
:38:29. > :38:33.budget? I have outlined the Parliament that I would, and this is
:38:34. > :38:38.a challenging timescale but I've committed to it, produce a Scottish
:38:39. > :38:41.draft budget three weeks after the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, which
:38:42. > :38:43.relies on the most up-to-date forecasts and all the information
:38:44. > :38:46.coming from the Chancellor and that would lead to a Scottish draft
:38:47. > :38:48.budget is being published on Thursday the 15th of December. We
:38:49. > :39:03.have to leave it there. Thank you. You think he has been perfectly
:39:04. > :39:07.reasonable? I do have sympathy with Derek Mackay on this. It is pretty
:39:08. > :39:15.difficult if you are down in the end of the line as he is. If Philip
:39:16. > :39:18.Hammond pairing -- preparing his Autumn Statement, he doesn't really
:39:19. > :39:22.think that all about what the Scottish position is and yet Derek
:39:23. > :39:26.Mackay has to wait until the Autumn Statement is delivered and then he
:39:27. > :39:29.has to put his budget together and put it to parliament, it must get
:39:30. > :39:34.put to all sorts of committees and eventually get past and put into law
:39:35. > :39:38.by April. That window is pretty tight. I think Derek Mackay is a
:39:39. > :39:43.difficult position because he cannot plan. Because nobody has any idea
:39:44. > :39:48.except those hobbled away the Treasury exactly what Philip Hammond
:39:49. > :39:52.is going to do. If he produces these indicative figures or whatever he
:39:53. > :39:55.has agreed to, they will be meaningless? The committee has asked
:39:56. > :40:00.for scenario planning which presumably means Derek Mackay says,
:40:01. > :40:05.if the Chancellor cuts this, we can do that but if he gives us more
:40:06. > :40:08.money we will do this. In terms of planning ahead, that is pretty
:40:09. > :40:14.useless because until we get the figures and see exactly what Philip
:40:15. > :40:19.Hammond will do and how he will change things around the net
:40:20. > :40:25.scenario planning is basically useless. I actually only spotted
:40:26. > :40:32.looking back at that interview that his away, one of the things he seems
:40:33. > :40:36.to be saying is it is not just the budget figures I've got to worry
:40:37. > :40:40.about, I've got to get the economic forecast the Treasury make in the
:40:41. > :40:44.budget because we will have to raise taxes and how much of those taxes
:40:45. > :40:48.will amount to be have to take into account the economic forces the
:40:49. > :40:53.Treasury and OBR are making? I think that is very significant in part it
:40:54. > :40:58.has to be seen in the context that the SNP are very keen there at all
:40:59. > :41:02.possible not to raise taxes, particularly in contacts. They will
:41:03. > :41:05.put up the higher rate and they will not bring forward the cuts the UK
:41:06. > :41:09.Government will do to the higher rate but the rest of it they
:41:10. > :41:13.desperately want to keep where it is. Derek Mackay was saying he might
:41:14. > :41:17.have to look at raising taxes but what he will try and do is look at
:41:18. > :41:22.the figures and find any way he possibly can not to raise taxes. You
:41:23. > :41:29.also have to give the SNP hats off to their ability to execute U-turns.
:41:30. > :41:34.On the council tax, there you are, rubber-stamping it away, this was
:41:35. > :41:37.the hated council tax they were willing to abolish. What has
:41:38. > :41:40.happened is you've had after nine years of council tax freeze the
:41:41. > :41:45.complaints from local Government have got louder and louder until the
:41:46. > :41:49.SNP have realised they cannot resist them any more and they have to give
:41:50. > :41:54.councils the ability tourist council tax, which they have done. That was
:41:55. > :41:59.a cornerstone of SNP local Government policy for the past
:42:00. > :42:05.decade and it is gone. Given that have changed these bands and made a
:42:06. > :42:09.song and dance about it, that is a change, OK, but presumably it locks
:42:10. > :42:13.the council tax system in place? It does, there is one more significant
:42:14. > :42:18.change that it creates a fund that could be used for schools around the
:42:19. > :42:21.country, effectively although not officially taking it from the
:42:22. > :42:26.councils that raise the most money. In that sense that is beginning to
:42:27. > :42:30.break the link of local accountability for the money that is
:42:31. > :42:35.raised locally and spent locally. I think as that starts to go through
:42:36. > :42:40.your get more complaints. Democratic complaints about the breaking of
:42:41. > :42:45.that link. Looking at the bigger picture, Derek Mackay is saying you
:42:46. > :42:48.think sensibly, please, I cannot, with DPL figures because I don't
:42:49. > :42:54.know what had Philip Hammond will do, part of this new we are on the
:42:55. > :42:58.side of this working people is the given up the fiscal surplus targets
:42:59. > :43:04.that George Osborne had. Labour are committed to an enormous programme
:43:05. > :43:09.of public spending. Due think it is possible that people like the IMF
:43:10. > :43:16.are more in favour of saying fiscal expansion should have gone together
:43:17. > :43:19.with quantitative easing? There is a shift going on. Yes, and what the
:43:20. > :43:24.Scottish Government are probably expecting is for the UK Government
:43:25. > :43:27.to let them spend much more in capital projects, there is hence in
:43:28. > :43:31.the week that infrastructure is the new big thing to spend money on.
:43:32. > :43:36.What's Derek Mackay is hoping that the UK Government will spend more
:43:37. > :43:40.capital projects and you'll get the Biard consequentialist but what he
:43:41. > :43:43.doesn't know is whether the rest of the revenue money is going to go up
:43:44. > :43:47.and that is the balance that has to be done, it is fine getting billions
:43:48. > :43:51.of pounds extra to build new roads and hospitals, but if there isn't
:43:52. > :43:52.extra money to go into the NHS or teachers that has to be found
:43:53. > :43:56.elsewhere. Again, don't go away. New powers are being devolved
:43:57. > :43:59.to Holyrood that will mean from April 2017, MSPs
:44:00. > :44:01.will for the first time have the ability to design
:44:02. > :44:03.employment services for disabled people and those at risk
:44:04. > :44:13.of long-term unemployment. The Minister for employability and
:44:14. > :44:16.training Jimmy Hepburn is leading the debate for the Scottish
:44:17. > :44:20.Government. We come to the significant point career move to
:44:21. > :44:25.designing services to deliver importantly this Government could
:44:26. > :44:28.potentially deliver new powers for Scotland in interest of the people
:44:29. > :44:34.of Scotland and with dignity and respect central to our thinking. I
:44:35. > :44:37.would like to set out the way forward for the smooth and seamless
:44:38. > :44:43.delivery of new devolved services and how those services will support
:44:44. > :44:48.people into employment. Today I will also set out where will use the
:44:49. > :44:51.powers differently in Scotland, including on how devolved deployment
:44:52. > :44:54.programme will interact with the systems of conditionality and the
:44:55. > :44:58.sanctions that remain reserved to Westminster. Today is also the
:44:59. > :45:03.opportunity for members to set out their views on these matters, I look
:45:04. > :45:08.forward to the debate to be clear at the outset, is to always useful to
:45:09. > :45:11.have clarity at the outset, today we will not be supporting the
:45:12. > :45:17.Conservative amendment but we will be supporting Labour amendment had
:45:18. > :45:20.it been accepted we would also happily it supported the Green
:45:21. > :45:25.amendment. We have a significant and unique opportunity to deliver the
:45:26. > :45:29.employment support in Scotland. I intend to take that opportunity to
:45:30. > :45:33.deliver employment support services that will reflect fair work in
:45:34. > :45:37.social economic conclusion and put emphasis on partnership delivery of
:45:38. > :45:40.building on our strength and boasting public and private sector
:45:41. > :45:43.and local authorities are third sector and specialist delivery and
:45:44. > :45:47.treat service users with respect and have services that will take people
:45:48. > :45:50.with us and encourage and support people into work rather than
:45:51. > :45:56.cajoling them regardless of their individual circumstances.
:45:57. > :46:02.Delivering new powers is not without its challenges. There are
:46:03. > :46:14.limitations in the powers being devised by the UK Government.
:46:15. > :46:20.The devolution committee of the last parliamentary session shared our
:46:21. > :46:24.disappointment that the degree of devolution does not deliver on the
:46:25. > :46:28.Smith commission's recommendation. A week after the publication of the
:46:29. > :46:33.agreement, the UK Government, despite our strong case for swift
:46:34. > :46:37.transfer of powers, announced that rather than devolved services on
:46:38. > :46:41.expiry of the current commercial arrangement in March 2016 as had
:46:42. > :46:48.been agreed, it would actually extend the contract to March 2000
:46:49. > :46:51.17. Then in the UK 2015 autumn Budget Statement, the then
:46:52. > :46:53.Chancellor announced the replacement of current programmes with a new
:46:54. > :46:58.work and health programme in England and Wales. That programme is still
:46:59. > :47:01.undefined, meaning disabled people and those who are long term
:47:02. > :47:07.unemployed in England and Wales still do not know what support
:47:08. > :47:10.services they will have. We are determined to give people in
:47:11. > :47:11.Scotland certainty about the future support programme.
:47:12. > :47:14.Now let's speak to some MSPs at Holyrood.
:47:15. > :47:17.I'm joined by George Adam from the SNP, the Conservatives'
:47:18. > :47:19.Graham Simpson, Daniel Johnson for Labour, and Ross Greer
:47:20. > :47:34.Jawed Adam -- jawed Adam, on the business of helping long term
:47:35. > :47:42.unemployed people get back to work, you have a chance to look at new
:47:43. > :47:45.solutions, look at some of the Scandinavian systems that you claim
:47:46. > :47:52.to admire so much and implement something completely different. What
:47:53. > :47:56.is it? You make a great point. We are at the beginning of something
:47:57. > :48:01.new and more powers that we can take something forward the people in
:48:02. > :48:04.Scotland with. But one point underlined by the Cabinet Secretary
:48:05. > :48:09.was that you have a position where we are getting these powers and the
:48:10. > :48:17.Tory government are taking away 87% of the budget from the DWP at the
:48:18. > :48:21.same time. They are effectively saying, there are your powers, but
:48:22. > :48:26.they are taking away. That is the difference between and it is ?7
:48:27. > :48:31.million. So yes, we are at a place where we can do something different
:48:32. > :48:35.on as the minister said. We have the opportunity to do things
:48:36. > :48:43.differently. We have the ability to treat people with respect. But what?
:48:44. > :48:48.What are you going to do that is different? We will make sure it is
:48:49. > :48:51.all people centred. We will make sure the individual is true to with
:48:52. > :48:56.respect, not like currently, where they just feel like they are a
:48:57. > :49:04.number. What is the new radical system? Actually, treating people
:49:05. > :49:11.with respect is a radical system. That is a good start. We are dealing
:49:12. > :49:15.with people's lives and how they go about them. It is important that
:49:16. > :49:19.respect is at the heart of that. So if you are asking me what is
:49:20. > :49:23.radical, that is a radical start. So you are not going to have a
:49:24. > :49:31.different system, you are just going to be nice to people? I was not as
:49:32. > :49:33.flippant as that, Gordon. I said we would give people an opportunity to
:49:34. > :49:46.build something, but it will take time to see what we can do. Graham
:49:47. > :49:50.Simpson. I was expecting you to appear with a donkey jacket and a
:49:51. > :49:53.scarf and a copy of the morning star under your arm, given Theresa May's
:49:54. > :49:58.speech. Do you have any radical ideas for what the Scottish
:49:59. > :50:03.Government can do? Sorry, I don't own a donkey jacket, never have
:50:04. > :50:08.done. George Adam has given you know answers to the questions, and they
:50:09. > :50:12.never do. They always want to blame somebody else, blame Westminster.
:50:13. > :50:17.Powers are transferring out to the Scottish Government. It is up to
:50:18. > :50:26.them to come up with proposals. You come up with some. Why do I have to?
:50:27. > :50:30.Because you are the main opposition. It is up to the SNP government to
:50:31. > :50:36.tell us what to do with the powers. If you look at the Work Programme as
:50:37. > :50:41.it has been operating, more than 47,000 Scots are now in work, next
:50:42. > :50:44.to the Work Programme. It is up to people like George Adam and his pals
:50:45. > :50:51.to say what has gone wrong with that. Daniel Johnson, let's try
:50:52. > :50:59.third time lucky. Have you got any good ideas, or any ideas? Labour,
:51:00. > :51:04.from the get go, have been talking about devolving and looking at how
:51:05. > :51:07.decisions can be made locally. If the Work Programme is to be
:51:08. > :51:13.effective, it has to respond to local need. So Labour has that
:51:14. > :51:20.proposal. Sorry, I missed what the proposal was. Making it local,
:51:21. > :51:30.making decisions about the Work Programme at a local level. What
:51:31. > :51:35.does that mean? Rather than making centralised decisions, having a one
:51:36. > :51:40.size fits all, we are looking at localised employment issues. We know
:51:41. > :51:43.what is happening in the north-east and we have seen other issues in the
:51:44. > :51:51.steel industry. By making those decisions locally, we can have a
:51:52. > :51:56.more responsive system. Ross Greer, this is your big chance. We have had
:51:57. > :52:01.been nice to people, it is not up to the Tories to come up with ideas,
:52:02. > :52:05.and be local. Have you got anything to be that? Yes. The Greens have
:52:06. > :52:09.done the research and found out that we can stop sanctions in Scotland.
:52:10. > :52:13.We know that the sanctions regime that is part of the Work Programme
:52:14. > :52:19.doesn't help people get into work. It really hurts the people it is
:52:20. > :52:23.affecting. There are 13,000 people in Scotland at risk of being
:52:24. > :52:27.sanctioned once we take full control over social security. We have
:52:28. > :52:31.figured out how to stop those sanctions and it looks like the
:52:32. > :52:35.Scottish Government has agreed. There is one specific proposal, to
:52:36. > :52:39.end the sanctions regime and save dozens from the misery the Tories
:52:40. > :52:44.have been inflicting. Are you saying that if you are on benefits in
:52:45. > :52:48.Scotland, you can just not turn up to any meetings you are supposed to
:52:49. > :52:52.turn up to, and there is no possibility of any consequences? But
:52:53. > :52:58.we know the sanctions regime doesn't work. You are supposed to encourage
:52:59. > :53:03.people into work. We know that punishment doesn't work. Even if
:53:04. > :53:07.people feel it is the right thing to do, which I don't understand, but we
:53:08. > :53:11.know from the evidence that it doesn't work, so why continue to do
:53:12. > :53:18.it when all it is doing is hurting the people being sanctioned? I am
:53:19. > :53:22.not sure what you would get in the Eurovision Song Contest for that,
:53:23. > :53:27.because that is just an idea for not punishing people who do not abide by
:53:28. > :53:32.the rules. You were asking for specific proposals. I have given you
:53:33. > :53:35.one. You said the Scottish Government agree with that. Let's
:53:36. > :53:38.see if George Adam is prepared to agree that people will have no
:53:39. > :53:47.sanctions on them, no matter what they do. We need a balanced system.
:53:48. > :53:51.Ross Greer says you have agreed with his idea of no sanctions. The
:53:52. > :53:55.weather current system is, I constantly have to deal with
:53:56. > :53:59.constituents coming in who have been recently sanctioned and they are
:54:00. > :54:06.tragic cases. But there will always be a situation where we have to have
:54:07. > :54:14.checks and balances. So it is not no sanctions, but different once? You
:54:15. > :54:21.have misunderstood me again, Gordon. We are having a bad day! There will
:54:22. > :54:24.always be a need to checks and balances, but the sanctions regime
:54:25. > :54:32.we currently have is causing heartache throughout Scotland and
:54:33. > :54:36.that has to go. Graham Simpson, as a conservative, you don't want to take
:54:37. > :54:42.a position on any of this? Renaming sanctions, is that a good idea? If
:54:43. > :54:48.you want. Call it incentives if you want. We have had more than half a
:54:49. > :54:55.million people throughout the UK who have got into work through the Work
:54:56. > :55:00.Programme. Your question to Ross Greer was right, and he didn't
:55:01. > :55:08.really cover it. Should you have any sanctions? Of course you should. I
:55:09. > :55:15.thought you didn't have any views on the matter, because you are not the
:55:16. > :55:21.government. You ask me about sanctions. I am giving you an
:55:22. > :55:27.opinion. You call sanctions incentives, but incentives shouldn't
:55:28. > :55:35.drive people to suicide. Can you justify that? Hang on, give Daniel
:55:36. > :55:43.Johnson a chance. So you want local sanctions, presumably? We need to
:55:44. > :55:48.move away from talk about sanctions. Sanctions are not talk. But it is
:55:49. > :55:53.all stick and no carrot, and that is the problem. Excluding people does
:55:54. > :55:59.not work. We have to leave it there. Thank you all for joining us. Hamish
:56:00. > :56:08.is still here. It is an opportunity, isn't it? We talk about Scandinavian
:56:09. > :56:12.systems. They could reinvent the welfare system. Two points to make.
:56:13. > :56:15.Firstly, they were trying to make their way through it. This is
:56:16. > :56:21.extremely complicated. The whole benefits system is just a mire of
:56:22. > :56:26.benefits and Saxons and it is very hard to unpick one part on its own
:56:27. > :56:32.without affecting the other parts. The other part is that social
:56:33. > :56:35.security is being devolved in part. The Scottish Government is not
:56:36. > :56:40.getting complete control of everything the DWP does. So it is
:56:41. > :56:44.limited in what it can do. If it had complete control of that and of the
:56:45. > :56:47.tax system, perhaps it could bring in some Scandinavian changes. But
:56:48. > :56:56.the scope for change is pretty limited. But there is also the point
:56:57. > :56:59.you made there. For example, the Blair government didn't make any
:57:00. > :57:03.serious changes to the welfare system, birth because they realised
:57:04. > :57:09.that it is impossible. No matter what you do with the welfare system,
:57:10. > :57:13.somebody suffers. You are only going to make changes to the welfare
:57:14. > :57:16.system if you want to cut the money going to it. The Blair government
:57:17. > :57:20.decided that if money was going to come in and go out, it would not
:57:21. > :57:24.alter the way it dealt with the benefit system. The Conservative
:57:25. > :57:28.view is different. There is an ideological drive to try and get
:57:29. > :57:33.more people off benefits and to bring more sanctions in, which the
:57:34. > :57:37.Scottish Government want to resist. But it is fiendishly difficult to
:57:38. > :57:49.make the changes that do change the system. OK. And of conference, they
:57:50. > :57:52.are all leaving. The SNP might object to that. But I mean today was
:57:53. > :57:57.the end of the Tory party conference. Do we know anything more
:57:58. > :58:04.about what the governance of Britain will be like over the next few
:58:05. > :58:09.years? We know where Theresa May is coming from. She was a fairly blank
:58:10. > :58:13.piece of paper until the start of this conference. Today, she has set
:58:14. > :58:20.out where she once the party to go. She does want it to be the party of
:58:21. > :58:22.blue collar Conservatism, working-class Conservatism, the
:58:23. > :58:26.people who drifted to Ukip and some who drifted to Labour. She wants to
:58:27. > :58:30.make a complete break with what she sees as the Bullingdon club elitism
:58:31. > :58:35.of the Cameron years, the Chipping Norton set and all of that. And
:58:36. > :58:38.grammar schools is part of it. The meritocracy part of it. We have to
:58:39. > :58:40.leave it there. Join us for First Minister's
:58:41. > :58:43.Questions tomorrow on