0:00:14 > 0:00:19Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up: north Sea oil is at the
0:00:19 > 0:00:26heart of the debate as the latest figures show how much Scotland put
0:00:26 > 0:00:33in and takes out the UK pot of cash. Fairer prices at the pumps as the
0:00:33 > 0:00:37cost of fuel rocket. We will hear from campaigners. And hear that
0:00:37 > 0:00:45Westminster, the Prime Minister leads tributes to the six British
0:00:45 > 0:00:54soldiers killed in Afghanistan. The political top today is all about
0:00:54 > 0:00:58the government expenditure and revenue Scotland Review. The
0:00:58 > 0:01:02opposition say that Finance Secretary cannot add up. Joining me
0:01:02 > 0:01:11is the political editor for the Times. Thanks for joining me.
0:01:11 > 0:01:17Looking at these figures, is it all lies and statistics? It is Spain.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Who do you believe? I think the SNP are probably right in the sense
0:01:21 > 0:01:26that the fiscal deficit of an independent Scotland would be less
0:01:26 > 0:01:32severe than that of the UK as a whole. That is the good news for
0:01:32 > 0:01:41the SNP. The bad news is that a person reading of the diggers leads
0:01:41 > 0:01:49you to believe that an independent Scotland's economy would be wholly
0:01:49 > 0:01:55dependent on fluctuating while revenues. -- figures. I would think
0:01:55 > 0:02:00that up on the basic figures, and a key figure probably is the fiscal
0:02:00 > 0:02:05deficit, I think we have to believe the SNP on that. Going further
0:02:05 > 0:02:11along on the subject, it brings into question the whole idea of an
0:02:11 > 0:02:16oil funds and with an Alex Salmond could possibly get away with
0:02:16 > 0:02:21spending �1 billion, or putting away �1 billion per year into an
0:02:21 > 0:02:25oil find. He has recently confirmed that is not a plan for the short-
0:02:25 > 0:02:32term but perhaps the long term. I think these figures rather confirm
0:02:32 > 0:02:37that view. It is quite a dry aspect of politics but it is fundamentally
0:02:37 > 0:02:42critical to the independence debate. Whoever wins the economic argument,
0:02:42 > 0:02:46you could probably say, will went to the referendum. The closer we
0:02:46 > 0:02:52get to the referendum, the more focused there will be on the cold,
0:02:52 > 0:02:59hard figures. Remember, people will not be deciding on what happens for
0:02:59 > 0:03:04example to the BBC. There will be happen -- deciding on what happens
0:03:04 > 0:03:08to their pocket books and their wallets. It is hard for people to
0:03:08 > 0:03:14make a decision because they have these two differing perspectives
0:03:14 > 0:03:20and they do not know who to believe. The it all depends on how it is
0:03:20 > 0:03:26presented by the respective sides. Who can simplify it for people and
0:03:26 > 0:03:340.2 unalterable fact. As I say that, I know full well that economics is
0:03:34 > 0:03:38a dismal science and is full of unalterable fact. Let's move on to
0:03:38 > 0:03:44Vince Cable and his attack on the UK coalition government's
0:03:44 > 0:03:48priorities and criticising the lack of growth. If I was being kind to
0:03:48 > 0:03:53be coalition I would said there was a dialogue but if I was being
0:03:53 > 0:03:58realistic, I would say there is a fight going on. It is an argument
0:03:58 > 0:04:04between what do you tax - income or wealth? The curious thing about
0:04:04 > 0:04:10this argument is it is not divided down straight play with them and
0:04:10 > 0:04:14Tory lines. Some Tories, including Cabinet ministers, like William
0:04:14 > 0:04:19Hague and George Osborne, who said that wealth should be taxed more
0:04:19 > 0:04:29than we income. Unfortunately David Cameron does not appear to think
0:04:29 > 0:04:31
0:04:31 > 0:04:39that. The Times portrait that in an amusing way. Yes and Michael Gove
0:04:39 > 0:04:44was portrayed as part of that welly boot brigade. Today at Holyrood, a
0:04:44 > 0:04:49debate on the health committee report which called for a bad
0:04:49 > 0:04:53review of the ten-year-old National Care Standards. MSPs also said
0:04:53 > 0:05:03equality and human rights should also be embedded in the delivery of
0:05:03 > 0:05:06
0:05:06 > 0:05:09care services. We will cost to the temper now. -- cross to the chamber.
0:05:09 > 0:05:16This was the committee's first inquiry of the parliamentary
0:05:16 > 0:05:19session and I would like to take the opportunity to thank the 51
0:05:19 > 0:05:27organisations who submitted evidence to the inquiry and indeed
0:05:27 > 0:05:35the clerks, and particularly the service users and carers that we
0:05:35 > 0:05:44met on our fact-finding visits. The report will enable us to provide
0:05:44 > 0:05:48the Government with a very clear as deer on areas for improvement.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52While we found the system sufficiently rigorous to identify
0:05:52 > 0:05:55care service for older people which are failing to deliver a high
0:05:55 > 0:06:02quality care, there are still some areas the Government needs to
0:06:02 > 0:06:08address. I will cover those areas related to inspections of care
0:06:08 > 0:06:11services, complaints to National Care Standards, the workforce,
0:06:11 > 0:06:17commissioning and procurement practices and I am sure that other
0:06:17 > 0:06:21members of the committee will pick up on other subject. A key issue
0:06:21 > 0:06:26raised was a criticism of the proposed reduction in the frequency
0:06:26 > 0:06:31of inspections of care homes conducted by the care inspectorate.
0:06:31 > 0:06:36We are pleased that the committee's inquiry prompted the government to
0:06:36 > 0:06:42address this concern by increasing the frequency of inspections. They
0:06:42 > 0:06:46are conducted against four themes. But not all seems our cover that
0:06:46 > 0:06:52each inspection. This was criticised by eight Scotland who
0:06:52 > 0:06:57felt the age scheme should be assessed as part of the whole
0:06:57 > 0:07:01review. Whenever a -- when an inspection is conducted there seems
0:07:01 > 0:07:05to be some contradiction between the Government and the care
0:07:05 > 0:07:15inspectorate's in response to the issue of inspecting against four
0:07:15 > 0:07:16
0:07:16 > 0:07:21themes. The Government states that the care inspectorate is assessing.
0:07:21 > 0:07:28However, the care inspectorate's response states this is not the
0:07:28 > 0:07:35case. All four themes are inspected in medium to high risk assessments,
0:07:35 > 0:07:40but only a sample of 10% of better- performing services will have all
0:07:40 > 0:07:45quality teams inspected. Therefore, the care inspectorate will not be
0:07:45 > 0:07:52providing a blanket approach to all of these themes being inspected for
0:07:52 > 0:07:59all inspections. To provide maximum insurance about quality of care,
0:07:59 > 0:08:05the Cabinet Secretary believes that all four teams should be covered.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that? The committee also calls on
0:08:10 > 0:08:17the Scottish Government to ensure the care Inspector as the necessary
0:08:17 > 0:08:21support to fulfil their roles. We also heard evidence that there
0:08:21 > 0:08:26should be greater support from whistleblowers. Our recommendation
0:08:26 > 0:08:31was that the care inspectorate published guidance for all staff to
0:08:31 > 0:08:34raise concerns on a confidential basis. The government's response
0:08:34 > 0:08:40refers to the Scottish social services guidance however this
0:08:40 > 0:08:44guidance does not make specific reference to the confidentiality of
0:08:44 > 0:08:49whistleblowers being protected. I therefore see the Cabinet
0:08:49 > 0:08:53Secretary's views on the issue of confidentiality in relation to
0:08:53 > 0:08:57whistle blowing. Another key recommendation of the report called
0:08:57 > 0:09:00for the government to conduct a review on the National Care
0:09:00 > 0:09:05Standards. We are pleased the Government accepted a
0:09:05 > 0:09:08recommendation by announcing it will conduct a review of the
0:09:08 > 0:09:15National Care Standards. I asked the Government to tell us when this
0:09:15 > 0:09:19review will get under way. As well as being in need of an update, the
0:09:19 > 0:09:24committee felt that the National Care Standards should have equality
0:09:24 > 0:09:27and human rights issues at their very hard. The Scottish Human
0:09:27 > 0:09:32Rights Commission told me they believe the care inspectorate
0:09:32 > 0:09:38should be encouraged to develop its understanding of human rights
0:09:38 > 0:09:43standards as they apply in care settings. The right to be free from
0:09:43 > 0:09:47unattended or careless neglect. The right to be protected from
0:09:47 > 0:09:56pharmaceutical or medical abuse. The right to live as independently
0:09:56 > 0:10:00as possible. Respect for privacy. Respect for modesty. The government
0:10:00 > 0:10:04response to this report made no explicit reference to human rights
0:10:04 > 0:10:07although I am keen to hear an assurance from the Cabinet
0:10:07 > 0:10:13Secretary that human rights will indeed be embedded in the National
0:10:13 > 0:10:17Care Standards. This can only help improve people's understanding of
0:10:17 > 0:10:24how they can be delivered in practice. Another area considered
0:10:24 > 0:10:29by the committee was for the care workforce. The workforce is vital
0:10:29 > 0:10:34to ensure our care services of the highest quality. For many years,
0:10:34 > 0:10:40the Social care workforce has been undervalued. The workforce is often
0:10:40 > 0:10:46poorly paid. Poorly treated. Poorly trained. The workforce needs to be
0:10:46 > 0:10:50registered, invested in and paid at least the living wage. We heard
0:10:50 > 0:10:54from Lord Sutherland during our evidence sessions that there were
0:10:54 > 0:10:58no incidents is in the ad -- in Edinburgh up their care home staff
0:10:58 > 0:11:06had left their jobs during the summer to take castle jobs at the
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Edinburgh Festival. Because it paid better. What does that say about
0:11:11 > 0:11:16the value we place on that work force? Good Commission and
0:11:16 > 0:11:20procurement practices go hand in hand in determining the quality of
0:11:20 > 0:11:26the care delivered by our care services. The committee supports
0:11:26 > 0:11:29the view held by the collision of care and support providers that the
0:11:29 > 0:11:34care they inspect and has far fewer teeth are to challenge
0:11:35 > 0:11:43commissioning practice compared with its powers of intervention in
0:11:43 > 0:11:52service delivery. The government's response is at odds with this view.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56See CPS have reiterated their position on the issue. There is no
0:11:56 > 0:12:03standard for commissioning and procurement on which to assess an
0:12:03 > 0:12:08authority's performance. There are no minimum frequency of inspection
0:12:08 > 0:12:12of these functions. And there are no provisions under which the care
0:12:12 > 0:12:18inspectorate can issue improvement or condition notices for poor
0:12:18 > 0:12:21practice in commissioning. In the light of these comments, and last
0:12:21 > 0:12:28week's publication of the Audit Scotland report on commissioning,
0:12:28 > 0:12:34which I will quote from, they said, councils have been slow to develop
0:12:35 > 0:12:39strategic commissioning. Only 11 of 32 council area has had a
0:12:39 > 0:12:45commissioning strategies covering all social care services. They also
0:12:45 > 0:12:51noted that there is a risk that councils focus too much on reducing
0:12:51 > 0:12:59costs when procuring services and give up insufficient regard to the
0:12:59 > 0:13:08range and quality of services and their impact on individuals. Given
0:13:08 > 0:13:17the position of a sea CPS and Audit Scotland's report, will the
0:13:17 > 0:13:20government explore further? I am sure I speak for all of my
0:13:20 > 0:13:25colleagues on the committee when I say that I do not see this debate
0:13:25 > 0:13:29as an end to our work on this issue. Indeed, our current inquiry into
0:13:29 > 0:13:33the integration of health and social care will doubtless raise
0:13:33 > 0:13:38issues about the assessment and monitoring of different services.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42We will also explored in further detail the provision of care and
0:13:42 > 0:13:47home services during our forthcoming scrutiny of the self
0:13:47 > 0:13:51directed support bill. Finally, I believe that we all recognise the
0:13:52 > 0:13:57commitment to elderly care has been promoted across government, across
0:13:57 > 0:14:03parties, and across this Parliament. I believe we must maintain this
0:14:03 > 0:14:09commitment and never lose sight of the fact that dignity, compassion,
0:14:09 > 0:14:12kindness should always be at the heart of care for the elderly.
0:14:12 > 0:14:22Presiding officer, I believe our inquiry has been about doing just
0:14:22 > 0:14:28
0:14:28 > 0:14:32that. I: Nicola Sturgeon. Thank you. I welcome this debate on the
0:14:32 > 0:14:36regulation of care for older people brought forward by the committee
0:14:37 > 0:14:41following their inquiry and report on what I consider to be a matter
0:14:41 > 0:14:51of fundamental importance. I want to complement Duncan McNeill on
0:14:51 > 0:14:52
0:14:52 > 0:14:57what I taught was a very good and passionate speech. After the
0:14:57 > 0:15:00election last year and in response to some understandable concerns, I
0:15:00 > 0:15:04made clear my personal commitment and the commitment of the
0:15:04 > 0:15:09government to improving care for older people in Scotland, something
0:15:09 > 0:15:14we have continued to be a firm sense, in words and indeed in the
0:15:14 > 0:15:18actions we have taken. The care we provide for our roles are people is
0:15:18 > 0:15:27generally good but in my view, being generally good is not good
0:15:27 > 0:15:32enough. Incidents like those at the care, and remind us of the need to
0:15:32 > 0:15:36be constantly vigilant and to be asking how to do things better. In
0:15:36 > 0:15:40the evidence I gave to the Committee on 4th October, I
0:15:40 > 0:15:45confirmed the importance the Government attaches to this inquiry.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50We get assurance that the analysis of issues and recommendations would
0:15:50 > 0:15:53form a key part of our commitment to continued to review the read the
0:15:53 > 0:16:03lesson of care so I thank the Committee for the work they have
0:16:03 > 0:16:07done and the recommendations they We have seen a new regulatory
0:16:07 > 0:16:15landscape taking shape over the past year. The care inspectorate
0:16:15 > 0:16:20was established as a regulator for care services. That has contributed
0:16:20 > 0:16:25significantly to the simplification of the scrutiny landscape,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29particularly regulation of care. As part of the -- these reforms, we
0:16:29 > 0:16:33introduced a review building on the existing systems in place for
0:16:33 > 0:16:39service users. I am pleased to see the committee's report welcomed the
0:16:39 > 0:16:44steps taken by the care inspectorate to engage uses in this
0:16:44 > 0:16:48process. It is also important to note on record that some of the
0:16:48 > 0:16:57other initiatives the care inspectorate has been taking to
0:16:57 > 0:17:00improve involvement of carers and users themselves, that comes as
0:17:00 > 0:17:08part of a wider programme of improvements including changes to
0:17:08 > 0:17:13the inspection and how findings of inspections are publicised. All of
0:17:13 > 0:17:16this and the recommendations of the Health Committee's report is
0:17:16 > 0:17:21important to improve public confidence in a regulation regime
0:17:21 > 0:17:24and to ensure care continues to improve, highlighting high
0:17:24 > 0:17:28performance as well as poor performance. As Duncan McNeil has
0:17:28 > 0:17:33said, in the autumn I announced a number of other steps I would take
0:17:33 > 0:17:39to strengthen the regulatory regime and improve public confidence in
0:17:39 > 0:17:45regulation. That followed from the tragic incidents at a nursing home
0:17:45 > 0:17:48and was in part to in response to public concern arising from a BBC
0:17:48 > 0:17:58Panorama investigation of the Winterbourne care few home in
0:17:58 > 0:17:58
0:17:58 > 0:18:02England. To honour that commitment, these regulations came into force
0:18:02 > 0:18:08in February this year, which meant that the committee's call that they
0:18:08 > 0:18:13may eat for the increased inspection frequency to commence
0:18:13 > 0:18:17before April this year. The regulations now make it a statutory
0:18:17 > 0:18:21requirement that all care services are inspected at least once every
0:18:21 > 0:18:2412 months as the minimum frequency. They also stipulate that
0:18:24 > 0:18:28inspections should be carried out on an unannounced basis and that
0:18:28 > 0:18:33the same regime will also apply to care homes services for the elderly,
0:18:33 > 0:18:37which is an important aspect of care for the elderly. We will
0:18:37 > 0:18:42continue to work with other agencies as well as the UK
0:18:42 > 0:18:50Government to bring forward recommendations for financial
0:18:50 > 0:18:55robustness in the sector. We will respond to a recent report on
0:18:55 > 0:19:00commissioning as well. In response to the committee's concerns about
0:19:00 > 0:19:07resources, we have also made clear that we will continue to ensure
0:19:07 > 0:19:15appropriate funding will be found. Efforts and resources will be
0:19:15 > 0:19:19targeted where they are most needed, in particularly -- in particular,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22the proposed budget settlement for the next financial year. The care
0:19:22 > 0:19:28inspectorate is not as funded by government but also by the fees
0:19:28 > 0:19:32that it charges. I intend to launch a review of the 10 spectra's fees
0:19:32 > 0:19:38by means of a public consultation. My intention is that that the
0:19:38 > 0:19:41system will be in place for 2013 and that will mean the - we meet
0:19:41 > 0:19:51the committee's request that the Government clarify its intentions
0:19:51 > 0:19:54
0:19:54 > 0:19:58for fees charged by the care inspectorate. We intend a
0:19:58 > 0:20:03consultation to be under way by June of this year. I think it is
0:20:03 > 0:20:08important that we consider such a review in the context of the work
0:20:08 > 0:20:12on the integration of health and social care services, new models of
0:20:12 > 0:20:16care and the implementation of dementia standards. I would also
0:20:16 > 0:20:20give Duncan McNeil assurance that human rights will be at the centre
0:20:20 > 0:20:25of that review and at the centre of the National Care Standards, just
0:20:25 > 0:20:29as they are already at the centre of our dementia standards. Finally,
0:20:29 > 0:20:35as well as the work in older people's care, the care
0:20:35 > 0:20:45inspectorate is currently developing a new approach to
0:20:45 > 0:20:48
0:20:48 > 0:20:53working together with the diverse services. That also demonstrates
0:20:53 > 0:20:59the importance we all place on driving improvement in person
0:20:59 > 0:21:03scented accountable services in a genuinely joined-up way. I said in
0:21:03 > 0:21:13my statement last September and I repeat today, I fully intend to
0:21:13 > 0:21:14
0:21:14 > 0:21:18listen to concerns and to debate on the regulatory regime. I have no
0:21:18 > 0:21:23doubt this is an issue we will come back to debate in Parliament on
0:21:23 > 0:21:28many occasions. It is vital, and they take this responsibility
0:21:28 > 0:21:31squarely, to make sure that we take whatever steps required to ensure
0:21:31 > 0:21:37confidence in the care system and in the regulation of that care
0:21:37 > 0:21:41system. I want to thank the Health and Sport Committee for its work
0:21:41 > 0:21:44and say that I look forward to working with them and others in the
0:21:44 > 0:21:51chamber to continue to provide services that older people have the
0:21:51 > 0:21:56right to expect. Let us get some reaction from a
0:21:56 > 0:22:00senior policy and parliamentary officer for Age Scotland, Callum
0:22:00 > 0:22:05Chomczuk. Your charity was mentioned in the debate. We heard
0:22:06 > 0:22:10from Duncan McNeil that he was concerned about the reduction of
0:22:10 > 0:22:17the number of inspections. How come said I knew about that? The charity
0:22:17 > 0:22:21of fairly -- very pleased that they are investigating the regulation of
0:22:21 > 0:22:31care for the people. As the Cabinet Secretary mention, a number of
0:22:31 > 0:22:34
0:22:34 > 0:22:37cases raised concern. One example, a care home when from been rated as
0:22:37 > 0:22:42good to being close down in matter of months because of the standards
0:22:42 > 0:22:47of care. Our submission to the committee made it clear that we
0:22:47 > 0:22:51thought they should be an increased level of inspections, a greater
0:22:51 > 0:22:54frequency of inspections. They should also be announced. We are
0:22:54 > 0:23:02pleased to see that the Government has responded to this
0:23:03 > 0:23:06recommendation. Duncan McNeil also pointed out the need for increased
0:23:06 > 0:23:12protection for whistleblowers, people, maybe staff, who complain
0:23:12 > 0:23:16about the lack of care in some homes. Do you feel they have enough
0:23:16 > 0:23:23protection? I think there will always be ways the inspection
0:23:23 > 0:23:29regime can improve. Protecting whistleblowers is essential to that.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32We found that there was a real lack of engagement with service users,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35and most people would agree that service users have to be at the
0:23:35 > 0:23:39centre of any regulation regime. They have to be consulted fully to
0:23:39 > 0:23:44make sure their views are taken into account so that inspectors can
0:23:44 > 0:23:47get a real understanding of what is going on in care homes. Nicola
0:23:47 > 0:23:51Sturgeon promised a review of National Care Standards in June.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55She pointed out that equality and human rights would be at the heart
0:23:55 > 0:24:00of that. I suppose that is the mark of a decent modern society, is a
0:24:00 > 0:24:04de? Absolutely. We really welcomed the progress made by the Government
0:24:04 > 0:24:11on this issue and many other issues relating to the care of older
0:24:11 > 0:24:17people. Catt plays an important part of the society, but we all
0:24:17 > 0:24:21agree that the best approach is to try to treat older people in the
0:24:21 > 0:24:29community and at home for as long as possible. It is not only cheetah
0:24:29 > 0:24:34-- cheaper, but what older people one. For Duncan McNeil also made a
0:24:34 > 0:24:39point about the value of the workforce. It was concern into here
0:24:39 > 0:24:42that some members of the workforce going work at the Edinburgh
0:24:42 > 0:24:47Festival because they earn more money there. While some people in
0:24:47 > 0:24:52care homes paid so little, when some of the owners make a very tidy
0:24:52 > 0:24:56profit? Duncan McNeil raises a very important. There. Standards of
0:24:56 > 0:25:00staff and training of staff and leadership of the management in
0:25:00 > 0:25:04care homes are absolutely central to ensuring we have got a really
0:25:04 > 0:25:08high standards and that vulnerable older people are looked after at
0:25:08 > 0:25:15the highest possible levels. We have to have much more specialist
0:25:15 > 0:25:19staff in care homes. Dementia is increasingly prevalent across the
0:25:19 > 0:25:23country. It is important that people who suffer from dementia in
0:25:23 > 0:25:27care homes have access to specialist nurses. This is not
0:25:27 > 0:25:34widespread across the country. It is something we hope the Government
0:25:34 > 0:25:40will invest in. Your original point was well made, that many care home
0:25:41 > 0:25:45staff are underpaid. The Government should make sure that proper
0:25:45 > 0:25:52salaries are in place. Callum Chomczuk from Age Scotland, Thank
0:25:52 > 0:25:56you very much.. The Finance Secretary John Swinney
0:25:56 > 0:26:00said that Scotland is in a stronger financial position than the rest of
0:26:00 > 0:26:08the UK, but Labour said figures show the benefits of sharing risk
0:26:08 > 0:26:13and reward are part of the Union. I am joined by Kenneth Gibson from
0:26:13 > 0:26:19the MSP, Ken Macintosh from Labour and Tavish Scott from the Liberal
0:26:19 > 0:26:26Democrats. Kenneth Gibson, I was saying to Angus McLeod, is it all
0:26:26 > 0:26:30lies, damned lies and statistics? He was telling the truth here?
0:26:30 > 0:26:35think people can log on to the Scottish Parliament website and see
0:26:35 > 0:26:38the figures. The Labour press release is being economical with
0:26:38 > 0:26:43the trees, but what was clearly shown by the figures is that
0:26:43 > 0:26:50everyone in Scotland would be �510 a year better off if we were
0:26:50 > 0:26:55independent. You point out that the Scottish -- Scotland's gave 9.6% of
0:26:55 > 0:27:00the cash and receive 9.3% of it back. Labour point out there is at
0:27:00 > 0:27:06an annual �19 billion deficit from Scotland to the rest of the UK. It
0:27:06 > 0:27:10is difficult to work out he was right. That is why people should go
0:27:10 > 0:27:20and look for themselves on their website. Labour's figures, that �19
0:27:20 > 0:27:22
0:27:23 > 0:27:27million figure is suspicious. It is surprising that Labour did not the
0:27:27 > 0:27:31much larger UK figure, because it shows, to be in a much stronger
0:27:31 > 0:27:41fiscal position. Ken Macintosh from Labour, the SNP criticises your
0:27:41 > 0:27:46figure. Who is writing this debate? I think the comparison is quite
0:27:46 > 0:27:53interesting. Kenneth Gibson is suggesting that we are drowning in
0:27:54 > 0:27:57debt. That is not much of an argument, I have to say. The a
0:27:57 > 0:28:00interesting argument he came up with there is that his figure
0:28:01 > 0:28:07produced from the First Minister that Scots would be �500 pay year
0:28:07 > 0:28:13better off, that bears a fascinating similarity to a figure
0:28:13 > 0:28:16from opinion polls recently that Scots were -- if Scots were offered
0:28:16 > 0:28:21�500 a year more, they might be more willing to vote for
0:28:21 > 0:28:25independence. This figure is more to do with the SNP's political will
0:28:25 > 0:28:34than with economic reality. Tavish Scott, Your leader Willie Rennie
0:28:34 > 0:28:43set that Mr Swinney could not add up. I dread to be the -- bring the
0:28:43 > 0:28:47Coalition into this, but if the UK governments had a bit more growth,
0:28:47 > 0:28:52we would not be in this position. think the think the UK Government
0:28:52 > 0:28:55is right is to have budget responsibility. People watching
0:28:55 > 0:28:58today would not believe any politician on any figure because
0:28:59 > 0:29:02they are being manipulated for political purposes. The one thing
0:29:02 > 0:29:05the UK Government has done to try to get it right is to try to take
0:29:05 > 0:29:08the politics out of the Government's statistics and put in
0:29:08 > 0:29:12an independent body he then produce a report quite separate from the
0:29:12 > 0:29:16political process. Then politicians can argue about the interpretation
0:29:16 > 0:29:20of that. What we need in Scotland is that approach. Why would you
0:29:20 > 0:29:25believe a word the SNP government say when they want to manipulate
0:29:25 > 0:29:27those figures to make the garda bid for independence? Now is the time
0:29:27 > 0:29:31it Scotland's team have an independent body so that we can
0:29:31 > 0:29:37argue about the figures, but that we do so once the figures have been
0:29:37 > 0:29:47produced by an independent body. Tavish Scott, you have been arguing
0:29:47 > 0:29:49
0:29:49 > 0:29:58for devo max. The security of spending has been debated recently.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02Under de faire plus, welfare would be devolved fruit -- to Scotland.
0:30:03 > 0:30:09do not been there is any consistency -- in consistency. The
0:30:09 > 0:30:12point I am making, not about devolution plus, it is about the
0:30:12 > 0:30:16independence of government figures and statistics. The people who
0:30:16 > 0:30:19depend on them, whether they are economists talk businesses or other
0:30:19 > 0:30:24organisations in the country, they should have confidence in the
0:30:24 > 0:30:28figures that are produced by government. Irrespective of whether
0:30:28 > 0:30:33you believe in devolution plus or independence or the status quo, you
0:30:33 > 0:30:37should believe that the Government figures are independent. Kenneth
0:30:37 > 0:30:42Mackintosh -- Ken Macintosh from Labour, you say that the positive
0:30:42 > 0:30:49aspect is the redistributive element of the UK. A scholar to
0:30:49 > 0:30:53porter goes alone? I do not think that at all. I do not accept that
0:30:53 > 0:30:57Scotland is a nation of subsidy junkies. But that is the point
0:30:57 > 0:31:01you're making, the redistributive element. No, the point I'm making
0:31:01 > 0:31:05is that we share the risks and rewards, the good times and the bad.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09We are part of the UK economy. It is difficult to see Scotland as a
0:31:09 > 0:31:13separate economy from the UK. We are very much part of the same
0:31:13 > 0:31:18economy and with all the strands of that. We're not as one economy
0:31:18 > 0:31:23based on one commodity, or oil, but a huge manufacturing base. We have
0:31:23 > 0:31:27a huge university sector so shared with the UK. We have a common
0:31:27 > 0:31:33taxation basis. That makes for a fantastic trading opportunity and
0:31:33 > 0:31:38it makes for shared risk. We have all got pensions in this country. A
0:31:38 > 0:31:42lot of people are worried about them. I would rather have my
0:31:42 > 0:31:46pension risk pooled and shared with everyone in the UK with the whole
0:31:46 > 0:31:51UK economy behind that and take a chance as people have done in
0:31:51 > 0:32:01Greece and Ireland and all these other countries of -- on more
0:32:01 > 0:32:03
0:32:03 > 0:32:07Part of the benefit is surely the �470 billion in capital injection
0:32:07 > 0:32:12and fiscal guarantees following the Bank crisis, that is not included
0:32:12 > 0:32:19in these figures? That is nonsense because the amount of money that
0:32:19 > 0:32:23went into that was based on where the assets were based. Am
0:32:23 > 0:32:28suggesting to people to look at the figures for themselves on our
0:32:28 > 0:32:32website. The reality is that the dead polecat but having an
0:32:32 > 0:32:37independent Scotland would be lower than in the UK. We to export
0:32:37 > 0:32:45building's per year and we are part of a European and global economy,
0:32:45 > 0:32:51not just the UK. I think we can look at what other smaller
0:32:51 > 0:32:56countries like Norway, Singapore, Sweden, and we believe and an
0:32:56 > 0:33:05independent Scotland that would be progressive and prosperous. Thank
0:33:05 > 0:33:09you very much. Angus MacLeod from the Times is still with me. Did
0:33:09 > 0:33:18Kenneth Gibson nail that point on the banks and the fiscal
0:33:18 > 0:33:23guarantees? I think he sidestepped it. The point he made about growth
0:33:23 > 0:33:26this is an important one. We are only two weeks away, but it and the
0:33:26 > 0:33:30Chancellor is under a Supreme pressure at the moment to try to
0:33:30 > 0:33:37come up with measures that inject growth into the economy on both
0:33:37 > 0:33:42sides of the border. That brings us to Tavish Scott's point about an
0:33:42 > 0:33:47office for budget responsibility. The function of the Office for
0:33:47 > 0:33:49budget responsibility has not worked out very well for the
0:33:50 > 0:33:54treasure the of the Chancellor because it has repeatedly pointed
0:33:54 > 0:34:00out the low levels of growth of the UK economy. What will George
0:34:00 > 0:34:04Osborne to in two weeks' time to promote that growth? Tavish Scott
0:34:04 > 0:34:09is pointing out it would be good for Scotland. People can look at
0:34:09 > 0:34:14these figures on the Parliament website. But it is difficult to
0:34:14 > 0:34:19extrapolate from them. There is a huge benefit here of neutrality. If
0:34:19 > 0:34:23that lies with an office of budget responsibility, that is self-
0:34:23 > 0:34:28evidently better. Political parties always have another agenda when it
0:34:28 > 0:34:33comes to figure's. Johann Lamont made the point at the level
0:34:33 > 0:34:37conference at the weekend, the redistributive element of the UK.
0:34:37 > 0:34:43Does that make it sound like Scotland is relying on handouts
0:34:44 > 0:34:48from down south? I don't think so. I view of how the UK economy
0:34:48 > 0:34:52operates is that it is a two way process. You cannot say that a
0:34:52 > 0:35:00country that produces as much in North Sea oil revenues as Scotland
0:35:00 > 0:35:03as is simply keeping them to itself. You cannot say of the UK, that can
0:35:03 > 0:35:09afford something like the bank bail-out, is doing nothing for
0:35:09 > 0:35:13Scotland. It is a two way process. When 11 part of the country is in
0:35:13 > 0:35:17problems, there is another part of the country to help out, and that
0:35:17 > 0:35:23is one of the fundamentals for the argument for the union that is
0:35:23 > 0:35:26being made by the Unionist parties. Thank you very much. Fuel
0:35:26 > 0:35:32protesters are lobbying Parliament to try to persuade the Chancellor
0:35:32 > 0:35:39to lower tax on petrol and diesel. They say it would create tens of
0:35:39 > 0:35:42thousands of jobs. We will cost to Westminster and our reporter David
0:35:42 > 0:35:47Porter. There has been a lot of reaction about the sad news from
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Afghanistan about the deaths of six British soldiers? That's right.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54That news came through just a couple of hours before the
0:35:54 > 0:36:00highlight of the parliamentary we peer at Prime Minister's Question
0:36:00 > 0:36:05Time. I think many MPs were very saddened by what had happened but
0:36:05 > 0:36:09it also brought home very sharply the fact that we are in a very wide
0:36:09 > 0:36:13and real conflict in Afghanistan and from time to time, incidents
0:36:13 > 0:36:18like this will happen, which unfortunately end in the loss of
0:36:18 > 0:36:23life, the loss of one life is very serious but when you lose as many
0:36:23 > 0:36:28people as this in one single incident, it really does bring home
0:36:28 > 0:36:32the nature of the conflict in Afghanistan. Talking to many people
0:36:32 > 0:36:37here at Westminster, they say it just reminds them of the situation
0:36:37 > 0:36:41in Afghanistan and wanting for the clarity of the government's long-
0:36:41 > 0:36:46term intentions as far as Afghanistan is concerned. Here at
0:36:46 > 0:36:49Westminster today it has been very busy. As you mentioned in your
0:36:49 > 0:36:57introduction, there is a major lobby going on at Westminster of
0:36:57 > 0:37:00those who would like to see a reduction in fuel duty. Many
0:37:00 > 0:37:06hundreds of protesters are here at Westminster now lobbying their MPs
0:37:06 > 0:37:11across the road in the Houses of Parliament. One person who has has
0:37:11 > 0:37:16died -- has joined me is Howard Cox. Thank you for coming from that
0:37:16 > 0:37:21lobby to join us. In essence, what is the argument you are putting to
0:37:21 > 0:37:26MPs? We want the government to change their mind set about fuel
0:37:26 > 0:37:32duty. In the past it has always gone up and that is only making the
0:37:32 > 0:37:37price, 60% of fuel is on fuel duty, and it is making it unsustainable.
0:37:37 > 0:37:42It is crippling businesses, communities and people at home.
0:37:42 > 0:37:46They cannot continue at this level of steel prices. We are trying to
0:37:46 > 0:37:53convince the government, very simply, to cut duty to get the
0:37:53 > 0:38:00economy motoring. In a report that we commissioned, from the centre of
0:38:00 > 0:38:08Economics and Business Research, a modest 2.5 pence cut in duty will
0:38:08 > 0:38:13generate 175,000 jobs and 0.33 % growth in GDP. All of this at no
0:38:13 > 0:38:18cost to the Treasury. I think most people would be confused if you say
0:38:18 > 0:38:24you can reduce the tax on something, how will the Treasury get more
0:38:24 > 0:38:27money as a result? Simply because it will stimulate the economy.
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Economists with brains better than the have worked tirelessly for the
0:38:31 > 0:38:35last months and they have gone through, using the Treasury's own
0:38:35 > 0:38:40model and figures, they have come up with the fact that 2.5 pence
0:38:40 > 0:38:45will cost the Treasury no money and it will generate jobs. People
0:38:45 > 0:38:53coming off the dole will mean less benefit being paid, people spending
0:38:53 > 0:38:57more in the community generally, more VAT, more pay-as-you-earn tax.
0:38:57 > 0:39:02We think it is worth it. Politically, it would be very
0:39:02 > 0:39:07popular but it would not help the government's green credentials.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11Many people talk to us about this. We are quite green are cells but at
0:39:11 > 0:39:17the moment we cannot afford to be green. We have to get the economy
0:39:17 > 0:39:27motoring. Once money is coming then we can produce more efficient fuel-
0:39:27 > 0:39:28
0:39:28 > 0:39:31efficient energy suppliers. Thank you very much. As we were
0:39:32 > 0:39:36mentioning, very busy day here at Westminster and inevitably the news
0:39:36 > 0:39:40that came out of Afghanistan first thing this morning meant that Prime
0:39:40 > 0:39:45Minister's Question Time would perhaps be a rather more muted
0:39:45 > 0:39:51affair than is normally the case. The Prime Minister and a lot of MPs
0:39:51 > 0:39:57wanted to pay tribute to those who had died in Afghanistan. Here is a
0:39:57 > 0:40:01flavour of pm cues from earlier today. -- Prime Minister's
0:40:01 > 0:40:06questions. Can I join the Prime Minister than expressing a profound
0:40:06 > 0:40:10sadness at the News of the six soldiers who lost their lives in
0:40:10 > 0:40:15Afghanistan. It reminds us of the sacrifice that our servicemen make
0:40:15 > 0:40:20on our behalf. They demonstrate the art most service and courage. Are
0:40:20 > 0:40:23we know them and of those who have lost their lives in Afghanistan an
0:40:23 > 0:40:28immense debt of gratitude and our thoughts are with their family,
0:40:28 > 0:40:31friends and colleagues at this terrible time. The commander of the
0:40:31 > 0:40:34battalion said to me today that his men have high morale. They know
0:40:34 > 0:40:41they are doing an important mission for the future of this country and
0:40:41 > 0:40:45the world and they want our support as they go about it. An odd
0:40:45 > 0:40:50delivery driver from Dartford to as a married father of study and the
0:40:50 > 0:40:56sole earner for his family. He worked 20 hours per week. From next
0:40:56 > 0:41:00week, unless you work 24 hours per week, he will lose all of his
0:41:00 > 0:41:04working tax credit. He says he has approached his employer to increase
0:41:04 > 0:41:12his hours but has been told there simply are not the hours there. He
0:41:12 > 0:41:16would love to work full-time. What is the Prime Minister's advice?
0:41:16 > 0:41:22me set the context for this. I will answer the question very directly.
0:41:22 > 0:41:27We need to reform the tax credit system because we have a massive
0:41:27 > 0:41:32budget deficit. When we came to office, tax credits were going to
0:41:32 > 0:41:35nine out of ten families including people write up the income scale,
0:41:36 > 0:41:40including members of parliament. What we are doing is dealing with
0:41:40 > 0:41:44the basic unfairness that we would ask a single parent to work 16
0:41:44 > 0:41:50hours before getting access to the tax credit system. It is only right
0:41:50 > 0:41:56to say to couples that between them they should work 24 hours. 12 hour
0:41:56 > 0:42:00siege. If they do that they will be better off. The reality is that
0:42:00 > 0:42:05Loring, families will lose their tax credits. Middle-income families
0:42:05 > 0:42:09are losing their child benefit. Does the Prime Minister understand
0:42:09 > 0:42:14why people just don't believe him when he says we are all in this
0:42:14 > 0:42:19together? I really think it is time for the right honourable gentleman
0:42:19 > 0:42:23to listen to his own shadow chief secretary, who said that we must
0:42:23 > 0:42:28ensure we passed the test of fiscal credibility. If we don't get this
0:42:28 > 0:42:38right, doesn't matter what we say about anything else. She is right.
0:42:38 > 0:42:39
0:42:39 > 0:42:49Reducing our deficit means tough decisions. Question number 10.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51
0:42:51 > 0:42:54look forward to visiting Scotland soon. I am not so sure of that I
0:42:54 > 0:42:59know he is coming to my constituency very soon indeed.
0:42:59 > 0:43:09Indeed, later this month, to the Tory party conference in Troon, he
0:43:09 > 0:43:14will be there. But I want to know whether are not he agrees with me
0:43:14 > 0:43:17that the uncertainty that is being created by the nationalists around
0:43:17 > 0:43:22this separatist idea of a referendum that has been delayed
0:43:22 > 0:43:27longer than it should be is not leading to an uncertainty of inward
0:43:27 > 0:43:31investment spot in my constituency and elsewhere? Will they come with
0:43:31 > 0:43:36me while he is in train to see some inward investment or potential
0:43:36 > 0:43:42inward investments? It is a promise to made to me at a meeting one year
0:43:42 > 0:43:52ago. When he asked me this question a year ago I did actually made with
0:43:52 > 0:43:54
0:43:54 > 0:44:00a delegation from his constituency. I agree with every word he said. If
0:44:00 > 0:44:04he wants to come and share the platform with me, he is welcome.
0:44:04 > 0:44:09There while Bank of Scotland has recently axed 300 jobs mostly in
0:44:09 > 0:44:13Adam and London but they have not gone completely. They have all been
0:44:13 > 0:44:16outsourced to India. The Prime Minister than the Government are
0:44:16 > 0:44:22the biggest shareholders on behalf of stakeholders, so when will the
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Prime Minister stand up to RBS and prevent these needless job losses?
0:44:26 > 0:44:32The most important thing we have to do with the Royal Bank of Scotland
0:44:32 > 0:44:37is recognise that a last government Putin on behalf of the country �45
0:44:37 > 0:44:41billion into that bank. At his �2,500 for every working family in
0:44:41 > 0:44:45the country. The most important thing is to get that money back.
0:44:45 > 0:44:50RBS must return to health, deal with its bad loans, deal with the
0:44:50 > 0:44:53trouble it got into and grow the rest of its business. Then be added
0:44:53 > 0:44:59in a position that we can return people the money they put into bat
0:44:59 > 0:45:09back. Ba was Prime Minister's Question Time from earlier today. I
0:45:09 > 0:45:11
0:45:11 > 0:45:13am now joined by three Scottish MPs. Gentlemen, I think we all agree a
0:45:13 > 0:45:18slightly different flavour about Prime Minister's Question Time
0:45:18 > 0:45:28today because of bad news from Afghanistan. It reminds us that we
0:45:28 > 0:45:32
0:45:32 > 0:45:39are still in a very real conflict Tragic news from Afghanistan today
0:45:39 > 0:45:43and our Hearts go out to those involved. There were a number of
0:45:43 > 0:45:49MPs he did not want to open questions on the policy, but wanted
0:45:49 > 0:45:53to know when British troops would be coming home. There is in -- an
0:45:53 > 0:45:57issue about when troops are coming home. It is important that
0:45:57 > 0:46:04Afghanistan is left in a secure position. We have to balance --
0:46:04 > 0:46:07balance that. But it was a sombre start to PMQs. As far as the
0:46:07 > 0:46:12Coalition government goes, it is one of those things that happens
0:46:12 > 0:46:15when you why a government when it is on your watch, there is nothing
0:46:15 > 0:46:19you can really do about it. In this case, the House has to come
0:46:19 > 0:46:26together. Yes, it was tragic news from Afghanistan and my thoughts
0:46:26 > 0:46:31are with the family. -- families. It is a difficult situation in
0:46:31 > 0:46:35government as this timetable of handing over to local forces by
0:46:35 > 0:46:392015, that is a timetable we have to stick to. Moving on to another
0:46:39 > 0:46:45subject, something you are all interested in, the fuel duty
0:46:45 > 0:46:48debates. We have a lobby at Westminster this afternoon. Alan
0:46:48 > 0:46:52Reid, I am not expecting you to write the budget, but how important
0:46:52 > 0:46:58is it at for a -- as an MP in a rural area, that the Government
0:46:58 > 0:47:03does more and recognises the problems? In a rural area like
0:47:03 > 0:47:11Argyll and Bute, fuel prices are a tremendous problem. This government
0:47:11 > 0:47:20has done a great deal. They abolished Labour's fuel duty, and
0:47:20 > 0:47:30so on 1st April, fuel duty will be 10p less than if Labour had to kept
0:47:30 > 0:47:31
0:47:31 > 0:47:35power. As a government, we have done a great deal. I hope the
0:47:35 > 0:47:40Chancellor will have spare cash in his budget to be able to reduce
0:47:40 > 0:47:45fuel duty, but it is a difficult balancing act. My preference for
0:47:45 > 0:47:48tax cuts would be to increase the personal allowance for income tax.
0:47:48 > 0:47:52What should the Chancellor be doing to address this problem, which
0:47:52 > 0:47:58despite everything Alan Reid has said, is still causing real head
0:47:58 > 0:48:01for many people? It is as much a problem for people in urban and
0:48:01 > 0:48:08suburban Lanarkshire as it is in rural areas. In many of those areas
0:48:08 > 0:48:12in my constituency, there isn't -- not much alternative that -- to
0:48:12 > 0:48:16using your card to get to work. It is a serious situation. In the last
0:48:16 > 0:48:21two years, the price of petrol has gone up under this government. In
0:48:21 > 0:48:27that time, demand the Treasury has taken has increased. Our policy is
0:48:27 > 0:48:30that we should immediately have a 2.5% cut in the VAT rate, which
0:48:30 > 0:48:38would take three pence off the price of the pound immediately for
0:48:38 > 0:48:44diesel and petrol. I am not sure if the Chancellor has already ruled
0:48:44 > 0:48:47out doing anything for fuel duty in the Budget, so it may be too late.
0:48:47 > 0:48:52Your constituency is worst hit because of its geographical
0:48:52 > 0:48:59location. At the end of the day, it is people and communities where you
0:48:59 > 0:49:06live who have to pay more for your fuel -- their fuel. Unfortunately,
0:49:06 > 0:49:16since the 5p could came in, the jury is out whether that was ate a
0:49:16 > 0:49:18
0:49:18 > 0:49:26general increase orate profiteering increase. On the wider point, the
0:49:26 > 0:49:33fuel stabiliser has gained a lot more currency. The Liberals were in
0:49:33 > 0:49:36favour of that before they came to government. Labour, Wendy VAT
0:49:36 > 0:49:41increased, people did not vote against that. Labour decided that
0:49:41 > 0:49:48they seemed quite happy with that. They sat on their hands. It is
0:49:48 > 0:49:51quite galling to now here Labour protests about VAT. It would be
0:49:51 > 0:49:57remiss of me not to mention the GERS figures that have come back
0:49:57 > 0:50:03today. You are saying that people would be better off in an
0:50:03 > 0:50:09independent Scotland. The straight figures are that Scotland is a 0.4%
0:50:09 > 0:50:14of the population providing 9.6% of taxation. We have a deficit of 4.4%,
0:50:14 > 0:50:18the UK have a deficit of 6.6%. Scotland is in aid if -- better
0:50:18 > 0:50:22fiscal position than the rest of the UK. I hope that the parties do
0:50:22 > 0:50:27not talks, and down and celebrate this good news. It is ironic
0:50:27 > 0:50:32hearing and is talking about straight figures from the SNP. Over
0:50:32 > 0:50:42the past 25 years, Scotland has spent more than eight raised. That
0:50:42 > 0:50:48is why the union should continue. Scotland does contribute a higher
0:50:48 > 0:50:58share of taxation to the UK and it received a higher Crone reserve --
0:50:58 > 0:51:01
0:51:01 > 0:51:08pro rata share. The SNP government up at him that the fuel cost to the
0:51:08 > 0:51:12Western Isles. That is a question we will have to leave. The clock
0:51:12 > 0:51:17has beaten us. Thank you very much. We may get in Greenock on some
0:51:17 > 0:51:21things like fuel, but when it comes to the figures about what Scotland
0:51:21 > 0:51:25puts in and takes out of the pot, you will not be surprised, there is
0:51:25 > 0:51:28no agreement whatsoever. The debate continues. A
0:51:28 > 0:51:32Conservative moved to stop the Scottish Government bringing in the
0:51:32 > 0:51:35so-called Tesco tax has been defeated. The Conservative MSP
0:51:35 > 0:51:40Margaret Mitchell told the local government committee that plans
0:51:41 > 0:51:46were nothing more than a tax raid on a profitable company - a
0:51:46 > 0:51:50profitable companies. The so-called tax attack -- Tesco
0:51:50 > 0:51:57tax will come in from April. It means that large retailers to sell
0:51:57 > 0:52:03alcohol and cigarettes will be hit. It will last for three years and
0:52:03 > 0:52:06raised it to �95 million. The Conservative Margaret Mitchell one
0:52:06 > 0:52:14to be planned thrown out at the local government committee this
0:52:15 > 0:52:20morning. Can the Minister explained this tax? How can it help economic
0:52:20 > 0:52:26recovery and combat unemployment, notably youth unemployment? As it
0:52:26 > 0:52:31happens, you are well aware that even with the knowledge that this
0:52:31 > 0:52:36supplement was being created, that has not deterred retailers from new
0:52:36 > 0:52:40investments in Scotland. That includes announcements extra
0:52:40 > 0:52:45employment in the country. The proof is in the pudding. Investment
0:52:45 > 0:52:53is still ongoing in Scotland and it is not just the format stores I
0:52:53 > 0:53:00mentioned in relation to Astor. We need to make sure we have a
0:53:00 > 0:53:07workforce fit for the future. To put this in context of the overall
0:53:07 > 0:53:11economy, �90 million contribution they have a three years pales into
0:53:11 > 0:53:17insignificance compared to the UK Government's contributions. This
0:53:17 > 0:53:21will affect job creation and the retail sector. Despite this, the
0:53:21 > 0:53:26Scottish government has refused to carry out a business Regulatory
0:53:26 > 0:53:30Impact Assessment. This refusal contradicts best-practice
0:53:30 > 0:53:36guidelines and the recommendations of the Scottish Government's UN
0:53:36 > 0:53:44Regulatory advising groups. This is a fraction of the profits of the
0:53:44 > 0:53:51large companies. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It would
0:53:51 > 0:54:01come from 1% of non-domestic premises in Scotland. That is 240
0:54:01 > 0:54:07of 217,000 commercial - a 270,000 commercial prospects. Of the
0:54:07 > 0:54:10companies affected, of these 200 - man most of them are still
0:54:10 > 0:54:14announcing new investment in Scotland. Here the Conservatives
0:54:14 > 0:54:24were looking for help -- for help from Scottish Labour, their hopes
0:54:24 > 0:54:25
0:54:25 > 0:54:30were dashed. It would be wrong for us to oppose this. We are going to
0:54:30 > 0:54:38have to support this measure, however, we are disappointed that
0:54:38 > 0:54:43an impact assessment has not been done with regards to the
0:54:43 > 0:54:47consultation. What is the impact on business and unemployment? Margaret
0:54:47 > 0:54:53Mitchell said she had heard nothing from the Minister or his fellow at
0:54:53 > 0:54:58SNP MSPs on the Kentish -- committee. This is an anti-
0:54:58 > 0:55:04competitive tax which will raise �95 million, endanger jobs and
0:55:05 > 0:55:13investment in Scotland. It sends out a worrying precedent message
0:55:13 > 0:55:16that if you make profits, then we do not mind if we make you or put
0:55:16 > 0:55:20you at a competitive disadvantage to the rest of England by baking
0:55:20 > 0:55:27business rates higher. Questions were asked about how the money
0:55:27 > 0:55:32raised would be spent. The Minister said he could not make -- out line
0:55:32 > 0:55:37where the money would go. It is appropriate that those with the
0:55:37 > 0:55:41broadest shoulders bear a little bit more of the burden, and I think
0:55:41 > 0:55:45that the largest supermarkets and Scotland are some of those with the
0:55:45 > 0:55:52broadest shoulders. With Labour backing the SNP, the motion was
0:55:52 > 0:55:55easily defeated. The result is one for the motion, five against the
0:55:56 > 0:55:59motion, the motion is defeated. We are galloping towards the end of
0:55:59 > 0:56:08the programme. That has picked up on one other issue with Angus
0:56:08 > 0:56:12MacLeod. This weekend it is the SNP conference. An important speech for
0:56:12 > 0:56:22Alex Salmond, isn't it? Yes we are in the middle of the conference
0:56:22 > 0:56:24
0:56:24 > 0:56:28season. The speech she this weekend is a big chance for the SNP. A lot
0:56:28 > 0:56:36of people will be interested to see what Alex Salmond says and how he
0:56:36 > 0:56:39goes about it. I think the key strand which has emerged from SNP
0:56:40 > 0:56:46strategy since the new year is this whole strand of reassurance. Salmon
0:56:46 > 0:56:54will use his speech to try to convince people they should not be
0:56:54 > 0:56:59scared of independence. They want to tell people that Scotland going
0:56:59 > 0:57:03on its own does not mean the end to their lives as they know it. It
0:57:03 > 0:57:10will be reassurance. Alex Salmond, a very good and able conference
0:57:10 > 0:57:14speaker, I think he will seize his chance to drive that message of
0:57:14 > 0:57:21reassurance home. It is an opportunity to rally the delegates
0:57:22 > 0:57:28in the hall. He has an almost evangelical mission to spread the
0:57:28 > 0:57:35word on the ground. Yes, but it has to go be on the audience in the
0:57:35 > 0:57:39hall. No-one is better than that than the SNP, getting the troops
0:57:39 > 0:57:44out. People do not have to be convinced of the case, the SNP will
0:57:44 > 0:57:47go right and propagated. Alex Salmond has to go beyond that
0:57:47 > 0:57:52immediate audience and talk to people outside because the polls
0:57:52 > 0:57:59are not where the SNP wants them to be. We have had another one today
0:57:59 > 0:58:03sharing independence somewhere in the low thirties. They want to see
0:58:03 > 0:58:08progress poll on pole. Alex Salmond's main concern this weekend
0:58:08 > 0:58:12is to talk to people outside the conference. Very briefly, it will
0:58:12 > 0:58:19be an at the Sirte that is different from the Lib Dem and
0:58:19 > 0:58:25Labour conferences. Yes. I will take your word for it because I was
0:58:25 > 0:58:30at another conference, but the SNP will be an active place this week
0:58:31 > 0:58:38in Glasgow. Thank you very much. That is all we have time for on