:00:17. > :00:20.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:20. > :00:22.programme: There's an angry reaction as the Scottish government
:00:22. > :00:26.has just confirmed none of the Beauly-Denny power line will be
:00:26. > :00:30.laid underground. As Scotland's Fisheries Minister
:00:30. > :00:35.sets out his reaction to the EU cod recovery plan, we hear from a
:00:35. > :00:38.worried industry. And here at Westminster, David
:00:38. > :00:45.Cameron says he will fight for Britain's interests at this week's
:00:45. > :00:48.crucial EU summit on the debt crisis.
:00:48. > :00:51.In the last few minutes, the Scottish government has confirmed
:00:51. > :01:00.that parts of the new Beauly to Denny power line will be laid
:01:00. > :01:03.underground. - not be laid. Objectors to the scheme had hoped
:01:03. > :01:10.unsightly pylons would be replaced by cables, which would protect the
:01:10. > :01:16.beauty of the landscape. Let's hear what the minister had to say.
:01:16. > :01:20.The upgrade is a key to the new jobs and renewables. The upgrade is
:01:20. > :01:24.essential for us to reach our renewables target, and for ensuring
:01:24. > :01:30.energy security. Consent for the line therefore had widespread
:01:30. > :01:34.support across this Parliament. My predecessor announced consent for
:01:34. > :01:38.the Beauly-Denny line in Parliament on 6th January 2010. The consent
:01:38. > :01:42.attached a number of conditions to protect the public. Also the
:01:42. > :01:46.environment and our culture heritage, and also to take into
:01:46. > :01:51.account the views of communities along the length of the line. Those
:01:51. > :01:55.conditions are being met. Existing pylons are coming down, and work is
:01:55. > :01:59.progressing apiece. When consent was granted, the importance of
:01:59. > :02:04.mitigating the him impact of the line at Stirling was recognised and
:02:04. > :02:07.the condition was imposed accordingly. In short, condition 19
:02:07. > :02:11.requires that proposals for mitigating the visual impact of the
:02:11. > :02:15.line near Stirling must be approved by Scottish ministers before the
:02:15. > :02:19.towers and a transmission line can be erected. Following a lengthy
:02:19. > :02:23.process of engagement and consultation, Scottish Power
:02:23. > :02:28.Transmission submitted proposals for that skirling visual impact
:02:28. > :02:34.mitigation scheme on 26th August of this year. I wish to inform
:02:34. > :02:37.Parliament that I am approving those proposals for the 400 KV line,
:02:37. > :02:45.but with some important and additional further proposals to
:02:45. > :02:49.this decision, I have taken into account all the relevant material
:02:49. > :02:52.considerations, and have had regard to the views presented by Stirling
:02:52. > :02:57.council representing the communities involved. I have also
:02:57. > :03:02.considered the views of my consultants, Scottish Natural
:03:02. > :03:07.Heritage, and Scottish government officials, as well as the findings
:03:07. > :03:11.of the reporter to the public inquiry in 2009. I have toured the
:03:11. > :03:16.length of the consented line covered by a condition 19 with my
:03:16. > :03:19.consultants and officials. I have considered carefully the proposals
:03:19. > :03:22.contained in the scheme. The proposals made by Scottish Power
:03:22. > :03:26.Transmission employ mitigation methods, including landscape
:03:26. > :03:32.reinforcement, the underground in of existing low-voltage overhead
:03:32. > :03:35.lines, and other compensatory measures in seven locations. These
:03:35. > :03:42.proposals offer an important level of mitigation to landscape and
:03:42. > :03:47.visual impact of the line. Let's be clear. The Beauly-Denny overhead
:03:47. > :03:51.Line upgrade is the most important infrastructure upgrade in several
:03:51. > :03:54.generations. There is a pressing need to get on with this
:03:54. > :03:59.development. The transition -- transmission network was built in
:03:59. > :04:04.the 50s and designed to transport electricity generated by large
:04:04. > :04:07.plants located close to their sources of fuel, namely the coal
:04:07. > :04:12.fields of England and the central belt of Scotland. The renewables
:04:12. > :04:17.ambitions of modern Scotland have a very different requirements. Energy
:04:17. > :04:22.generated at the periphery must now be transported to the centres of
:04:22. > :04:25.population. That clean green energy revolution is transforming Scotland,
:04:25. > :04:30.building on our distinctive competitive advantage in renewable
:04:30. > :04:36.energy. It is, presiding officer, delivering thousands of jobs and
:04:36. > :04:39.hundreds of millions of pounds of investment. Condition 19 requires
:04:39. > :04:43.that Scottish ministers consult with Stirling Castle before
:04:43. > :04:47.approving proposals and this requirement has been met. I have
:04:47. > :04:52.undertaken a formal consultation with the council, beginning on 30th
:04:52. > :04:56.August, which extended from 30 to 45 days. My officials have melt
:04:56. > :05:01.which -- met with Stirling council on several occasions, and I
:05:01. > :05:04.recently did so myself to hear their views first-hand. In making
:05:04. > :05:09.this decision I have been mindful of the views of many in sterling
:05:09. > :05:13.that theShould be underground. Underground in the upgrade in the
:05:13. > :05:18.sterling area was comprehensively examined during the public inquiry,
:05:18. > :05:25.and subsequently in the report produced for skirling council --
:05:25. > :05:30.Stirling council I have considered all of the recent relevant reports
:05:30. > :05:34.on underground ring of High Voltage transmission lines. Objective
:05:34. > :05:39.consideration leads me to conclude that the net reduction in impact
:05:39. > :05:44.realised from underground link the route would be relatively modest in
:05:44. > :05:48.most occasions, especially once the potential impact of the ceiling and
:05:48. > :05:53.compounds are taken into account. The evidence presented is that but
:05:53. > :05:56.in the lines underground would require a ceiling and compound at
:05:56. > :06:00.the point where the line is underground and then we services.
:06:00. > :06:06.These compounds would have a significant impact in their own
:06:06. > :06:13.right. Such compounds for a 400 KV transmission line would be of the
:06:13. > :06:17.size upwards of 30 by 80 metres - almost as big as a football pitch.
:06:17. > :06:24.This would have to be accommodated into the landscape, instead of the
:06:24. > :06:31.pylons. Estimates for the cost of but in the lines underground very
:06:31. > :06:37.from �28.7 million for a section of only 1.6 kilometres up to �263
:06:37. > :06:44.million for putting the whole route underground. I do not find it
:06:44. > :06:48.appropriate to seek approval from Ofgem for spending up to �263
:06:49. > :06:53.million of electricity consumers' money, especially at a time of such
:06:53. > :06:56.economic difficulty. Given the issues and the limited
:06:56. > :07:03.environmental benefits that putting the lines underground would bring,
:07:03. > :07:05.it simply cannot be justified. Underground is normally only
:07:05. > :07:08.considered as a mitigation intervention to address
:07:08. > :07:12.extraordinary circumstances where major adverse impact are predicted,
:07:12. > :07:16.and where it would be effective where other mitigation options are
:07:16. > :07:23.ruled out as ineffective. While I have listened carefully to views
:07:23. > :07:27.from all sides, I agree with the findings of the reporter, as well
:07:27. > :07:31.as our own report, and have agreed that these exceptional
:07:31. > :07:35.circumstances do not apply to sterling. The conclusion of the
:07:35. > :07:38.public inquiry and of my consultants was that the impact of
:07:38. > :07:44.the consented line at Stirling are, in the main, my neck to moderate at
:07:44. > :07:53.first. And, the prospect of programme delays is also important.
:07:53. > :07:57.A timely Beaulieu Denny upgrade his critical to the wider programme of
:07:57. > :08:01.road reinforcement required for Scotland to realise it's almost --
:08:02. > :08:07.enormous renewable potential. Best estimates suggest that put in the
:08:07. > :08:11.lines underground would lead to a delay of approximately two - three
:08:11. > :08:15.years. Clearly, therefore, there would be financial impact in terms
:08:15. > :08:19.of restraining renewables, but the wider implications that such delays
:08:19. > :08:23.would have on great improvements and renewables Investment would
:08:23. > :08:26.carry even greater economic problems. Overall, I conclude that
:08:26. > :08:30.the position of the reported to the public inquiry remains appropriate,
:08:30. > :08:34.having regard to the cost of the alternatives, the technical
:08:34. > :08:38.problems associated with it, and to the limited environmental benefits
:08:38. > :08:42.that it would offer, the case made for but in the lines underground
:08:42. > :08:45.has not been justified. If it is not appropriate to underground the
:08:45. > :08:50.main 400 KV line, the question remains as to how best you can
:08:50. > :08:58.further protect and support the communities affected. First, I have
:08:58. > :09:03.requested that the existing overhead 132 gave the line is
:09:03. > :09:06.underground. This will give -- carried a cost of �12.9 million for
:09:06. > :09:13.seven kilometres of steel pylons removed. This represents a much
:09:13. > :09:18.more efficient use of money than the �28.7 billion for a section of
:09:18. > :09:24.only 1.6 kilometres, or of the �263 million for a section of a 15
:09:24. > :09:28.kilometres, and it will not delay the main Beauly-Denny development.
:09:28. > :09:33.The costs are justified. The reported to the public inquiry
:09:33. > :09:38.recognised that the benefit this option bring to the wide area,
:09:38. > :09:42.providing both landscape and visual benefits by reducing the wire scape.
:09:42. > :09:47.My consultants recognise the value of this proposal, surmising that it
:09:47. > :09:50.produced direct visual benefits for South and eastern areas by
:09:50. > :09:55.offsetting the impact of the proposed line, as well as providing
:09:55. > :10:01.both landscape and visual benefits to the wider area by reducing the
:10:01. > :10:05.wire escape. I am satisfied that between the lines underground in
:10:05. > :10:10.this case is justified. But in underground an existing line is a
:10:10. > :10:14.different proposition to a 400 KV line. It will be achieved at lower
:10:14. > :10:18.costs and will not delay the project, and it will not require
:10:18. > :10:26.further sealing and compounds. It will deliver significant benefits
:10:26. > :10:30.at manageable costs. Secondly, I have asked that wider landscape
:10:30. > :10:34.enhancement is pursued, developing the Central Scotland green networks
:10:34. > :10:38.initiative in the area. My consultants have recommended a
:10:38. > :10:42.wider landscape enhancement scheme to deliver a range of benefits. The
:10:42. > :10:46.costs of this would be known until the relevant parties work together
:10:46. > :10:50.to develop the scheme. But I would ask you to consider for a moment
:10:50. > :10:53.what even a fraction of the money that some have proposed to spend on
:10:53. > :10:58.underground lines would do for specific landscape in the 80s in
:10:58. > :11:01.the area that will deliver long and lasting benefits of two communities
:11:01. > :11:04.in the sterling area. Such an enhanced scheme will also assist
:11:04. > :11:08.the Scottish government to make progress against a number of
:11:08. > :11:13.national performance indicators, namely increasing people's use of
:11:13. > :11:16.Scotland's outdoors through the provision of cycle paths, support
:11:16. > :11:23.biodiversity through the creation of woodland habitat, and reducing
:11:23. > :11:29.Scotland's carbon foot print by creating new wooden. Scottish Power
:11:29. > :11:32.Transmission must now work alongside Stirling council, the
:11:32. > :11:36.Forestry Commission and other relevant parties to develop a broad
:11:36. > :11:40.sweep of proposals for improvements to amenities in the area. Most
:11:40. > :11:44.importantly, I encourage the communities involved to actively
:11:44. > :11:48.engage with this process to facilitate the environmental
:11:48. > :11:53.improvements in their area. My opinion is that this represents an
:11:53. > :11:57.affordable option with the potential to provide substantial
:11:57. > :12:01.long-lasting landscape biodiversity and civic amenity benefits.
:12:02. > :12:08.Particular mention has been made of the increase in webscape where the
:12:08. > :12:16.consented line meets the existing twin overhead power lines. This has
:12:16. > :12:22.been highlighted by both the public inquiry and our inquiry. This area
:12:22. > :12:26.will benefit significantly from the proposals but will remain greatly
:12:26. > :12:31.affected by existing and new power lines. I have therefore asked that
:12:31. > :12:37.particular attention is given to this area. Furthermore, I also take
:12:37. > :12:40.on board expressed in packs on the area of great landscape value.
:12:40. > :12:44.Although my consultants agree that impact here are not of a
:12:44. > :12:50.significance which affect the integrity, I have also asked that
:12:50. > :12:55.particular intention is paid to improving this in this area. This
:12:55. > :13:00.is an important issue. I have been acutely conscious of the feelings
:13:00. > :13:03.of the communities in the area of the consented overhead line. The
:13:03. > :13:07.communities who have played an active role in this process and
:13:07. > :13:10.made a substantial contribution. My decision represents a way forward
:13:10. > :13:13.which maximises the potential benefits to the people of sterling
:13:13. > :13:19.from the costs which are incurred by the public and avoids the later
:13:19. > :13:23.this crucial development. Mike decision has been made available
:13:23. > :13:25.and I commend this decision to the parliament.
:13:25. > :13:33.Let's get some analysis now on that statement from our Environment
:13:33. > :13:36.Correspondent David Miller. How will campaigners who wanted to
:13:36. > :13:41.see this stretch of line being put underground react to this news, do
:13:41. > :13:44.you think? I think we can expect them to react with dismay. Speaking
:13:44. > :13:48.to some of them before the ministerial statement, they were
:13:48. > :13:52.already fearing the worst. They were talking about a failure of the
:13:52. > :13:56.democratic process. They were talking about a shoddy decision by
:13:56. > :14:02.the Scottish government. Clearly, they are very angry. They will take
:14:02. > :14:06.some time to consider their position, but it is very difficult,
:14:06. > :14:09.given the strength of the minister's statement, to see where
:14:09. > :14:13.their campaign will go from here. It is now clear that the Beauly-
:14:13. > :14:18.Denny line will be built over ground in the sterling area, and
:14:18. > :14:22.that is because -- has caused real concern for many local people.
:14:22. > :14:28.was Scottish Power approached to put in the lines underground?
:14:28. > :14:31.Primarily on the grounds of cost. The company says that in the line
:14:31. > :14:36.underground in this area, on this 12 mile stretch of the line, would
:14:36. > :14:40.be the equivalent of building a four-lane motorway underground. We
:14:40. > :14:43.had the Minister saying there will be an additional cost of �263
:14:44. > :14:50.million. The company has always argued that the environmental
:14:50. > :14:55.benefits would not justified the cost. They point out that the cost
:14:56. > :15:00.for this work, as indeed applies to any upgrade of the power great, has
:15:00. > :15:04.to be met by consumers. That is the way the industry is structured in
:15:04. > :15:07.this country, so an extra �263 million will put in the Line
:15:07. > :15:11.Underground would be paid for by you and me, and everyone else who
:15:11. > :15:16.pays an electricity bill. Beauly-Denny project has been
:15:16. > :15:20.considered very controversially and it has been difficult politically
:15:20. > :15:24.for the Scottish government as well. What you think it is so important?
:15:24. > :15:30.It is important because, of course, the Scottish government puts such
:15:30. > :15:33.massive weight on the importance of building a green energy industry in
:15:34. > :15:37.Scotland. We have heard the First Minister Alex Salmond say time and
:15:37. > :15:42.time again that Scotland is a Europe's green energy powerhouse.
:15:42. > :15:49.The problem for Scotland is that many of our green energy resources
:15:49. > :15:53.are in the north of the country. For example, tidal and wave
:15:53. > :15:58.projects tend to be centred on the north coast. Orkney is a leader
:15:58. > :16:02.there. Wind farms tend to be in relatively remote areas, and that
:16:02. > :16:06.is something we will see as we continue to develop offshore wind
:16:06. > :16:10.generation in Scotland, so the challenge is getting that power to
:16:10. > :16:14.the Central Belt where most of the consumers are, and potentially
:16:14. > :16:19.exporting it on to England and the rest of the UK. To do that, the
:16:19. > :16:25.Scottish government, the renewable energy industry, are clear that
:16:25. > :16:35.Beauly-Denny must happen quickly if we are to cash in on a fat green
:16:35. > :16:39.A leading mar debt analyst said it is preposterous to believe an
:16:39. > :16:44.independent referendum would not create uncertainty for investors.
:16:44. > :16:48.Peter Atherton was ghifg was giving evidence this morning. His
:16:48. > :16:54.appearance comes less than a month after Citigroup warned green
:16:54. > :16:59.investment could be at risk because Which companies are you aware of
:16:59. > :17:03.have indicated to yourself or to your company that they are not
:17:03. > :17:08.going to invest in Scotland as a result of the independence
:17:08. > :17:13.referendum? We didn't say that they had and we didn't urge anybody to
:17:13. > :17:21.not invest in Scotland. We said people should show caution because
:17:21. > :17:25.the independence, the chance that Scotland succeeds from the UK is an
:17:25. > :17:30.asset risk and the referendum itself creates a degree of
:17:30. > :17:34.uncertainty. We have just written a report highlighting the urn
:17:34. > :17:38.certainty created by the French Presidental election for the
:17:38. > :17:48.utility sector. We did a report ahead of the Spanish general
:17:48. > :17:55.election about the risks and and uncertainty, election create risk
:17:55. > :17:59.and uncertainty. To suggest that Scotland having a referendum
:17:59. > :18:08.referendum carries no uncertainty and no risk for particular sectors
:18:08. > :18:12.is preposterous. Your report says it threat
:18:12. > :18:18.threatens investment. You don't know what is going to happen and
:18:18. > :18:24.also it has been shot by by the investments in Scotland by large
:18:24. > :18:27.companies and by Peter Jones of the Times who says assumption devalue
:18:27. > :18:33.the Citigroup and the future, something which I agree.
:18:33. > :18:37.The idea that you can have alreferendum on -- a referendum on
:18:37. > :18:42.succession and not believe that creates uncertainty in certain
:18:42. > :18:48.sectors like utilities is preposterous. The second second
:18:48. > :18:54.point is on, you know, if you believe that the UK Government
:18:54. > :18:59.can't meet its targets without importing renewable power from
:18:59. > :19:05.Scotland, that's fine. They will no doubt be happy therefore to sign a
:19:05. > :19:12.PPA for that power or agree as we have set out in our second report
:19:12. > :19:17.to say yes, yes, yes to the three questions we set out. Ask them. You
:19:17. > :19:22.need somebody who has the money or has the consumer base to say, "We
:19:22. > :19:27.will back these assets with the level of subsidy we are backing
:19:27. > :19:34.them for the pay back period of the investment." It is simple stuff.
:19:34. > :19:39.If Scotland becomes independent so England or the rest of the UK
:19:39. > :19:44.whatever it might be called would then think, "Do we try to meet our
:19:44. > :19:50.renewable energy targets by buying green energy from Scotland or
:19:50. > :19:53.elsewhere?" Now how would the price of that energy be determined?
:19:53. > :19:56.Treasury, for example, would be concerned about having an open-
:19:56. > :20:01.ended commitment to a foreign country that they could continue to
:20:01. > :20:05.to build whatever they wanted to build and that would be subsidised
:20:05. > :20:09.by the consumers in England and Wales. In the same way that the UK
:20:09. > :20:14.doesn't provide Ireland or France or Holland with an open-ended
:20:14. > :20:23.commitment to buy whatever renewable power they produce.
:20:23. > :20:28.I am joined by Professor John Curtis. Thank you. Before we get to
:20:28. > :20:36.Citigroup. Let's talk about the power line first. Do you think the
:20:36. > :20:41.decision was expected? In the minister's view, the cost wasn't
:20:41. > :20:47.worth incurring given the costs in terms of the visual impairment.
:20:47. > :20:53.What it does illustrate, there are potential obstacles in the way of
:20:53. > :20:58.the realisation of the SNP's vision of a green energy Scotland. As the
:20:58. > :21:03.minister pointed out, he has got to get the electricity through win and
:21:03. > :21:08.wave -- win and wave power from the north of Scotland to the south of
:21:08. > :21:13.Scotland, that requires a power line. We know wind power, again
:21:13. > :21:19.potentially causes a lot of anxiety and argument because people don't
:21:19. > :21:23.necessarily like the wind turbines. The idea of renewable energy sounds
:21:23. > :21:29.great. The Government regards it as being essential to its case for an
:21:29. > :21:33.independent Scotland, but it can cause internal political
:21:33. > :21:36.difficulties and this has been one of the biggest source and
:21:36. > :21:43.disagreements about how the green revolution should be implemented.
:21:43. > :21:46.How does this play out for the SNP? Was it tricky for them before the
:21:46. > :21:51.election and now they have had to make this controversial decision?
:21:51. > :21:55.It is a decision easier to make this side of the election and I
:21:55. > :22:00.heard inside the minister's tone, there is a amount of parking going
:22:00. > :22:03.on. Scottish Power had come up with proposals for trying to ameliorate
:22:03. > :22:09.some of the environmental impact of creating the line and the minister
:22:10. > :22:15.seemed to be saying, "I'm going to insist on more." We are going to
:22:15. > :22:19.have to put more tree to say hide the power line. He is trying to
:22:19. > :22:24.minimise the extent of the opposition by saying, "You may not
:22:24. > :22:29.like this, but you will get compensation." Which might improve
:22:29. > :22:36.the landscape. He is He is trying to deal as carefully as he can.
:22:37. > :22:41.Watch out for fierce politics and a tough decision which any Government
:22:41. > :22:46.has it make while in office. Citigroup, Atherton was blunt in
:22:46. > :22:49.what he was saying, wasn't he? are back to renewables again.
:22:49. > :22:53.Essential to the Citigroup report they were discussing there, was an
:22:53. > :22:57.argument that if Scotland were to become independent, there are
:22:57. > :23:03.question marks about how you could fund the generation of that
:23:03. > :23:07.electricity merely on the basis of demand from within Scotland. The
:23:07. > :23:12.SNP's response to that, "we are going to sell the energy to
:23:12. > :23:16.England." What Mr Atherton was saying, of course, that's fine, but
:23:16. > :23:19.you cannot assume in the long run that a separate England would buy
:23:19. > :23:24.that energy. We can argue about whether or not Citigroup were wise
:23:24. > :23:27.to fall into the general argument about the referendum creating
:23:27. > :23:30.uncertainty which was almost bound to raise a political argument.
:23:30. > :23:35.That's one of the arguments the opponents of the nationalists make,
:23:35. > :23:38.but it is more spes specific arguments about if indeed a
:23:38. > :23:43.renewable Scotland is going to be an economic Powerhouse, it has got
:23:43. > :23:51.to be able to sell its energy and will people be willing to buy it?.
:23:51. > :23:58.That raises an important question about the SNP's energy strategy.
:23:58. > :24:02.We have people like like Citigroup worrying about the dangers of
:24:02. > :24:07.independence. How damaging is it for the Government, do you think?
:24:07. > :24:11.Certainly, the economic arguments about independence as I was
:24:11. > :24:17.pointing out are crucial and part of that argument now is about well,
:24:17. > :24:21.about the timing of the referendum. The parties had little enthusiasm
:24:21. > :24:24.for a referendum before May. Now one seems inevitable, they want to
:24:24. > :24:29.hold one quickly. Part of the reason they are saying that, as
:24:29. > :24:34.long as this issue is uncertain and we won't know what the outcome is,
:24:34. > :24:39.this creates uncertainty. The SNP are insistent on keeping to their
:24:39. > :24:44.timetable and insisting on making a decision about independence isn't
:24:44. > :24:48.disadvantaged. I suspect Citigroup will not be the first set of city
:24:48. > :24:52.analysts sitting in London who will say, "You need to be aware of, at
:24:52. > :24:57.least one of the potential sources of uncertainty is whether or not
:24:57. > :25:00.Scotland becomes independent." If you think this is important, I
:25:00. > :25:09.suspect you will see those arguments being made again.
:25:09. > :25:15.An angry reaction to the Scottish Government's decision not to place
:25:15. > :25:18.any of the new power line underground.
:25:18. > :25:28.Labour has asked why there was a two year delay in making this
:25:28. > :25:31.decision? Many campaigners will be angry they were given false hope.
:25:31. > :25:35.Now, Europe was the big issue during Prime Minister's Questions
:25:35. > :25:39.this afternoon. David Cameron was asked if he would attempt to define
:25:39. > :25:42.the UK's role within the European Union at the EU Summit on Friday.
:25:43. > :25:47.The Prime Minister faced questions about the future of nationalised
:25:47. > :25:53.banks and how the Government's spending cuts were affecting women.
:25:53. > :25:58.Let me remind him on the eve of the biggest postal -- post-war
:25:58. > :26:03.rebellion, he was telling his backbenchers, he was telling his
:26:03. > :26:07.backbenchers that the opportunity of treaty change would mean in the
:26:07. > :26:13.future the repatriation of powers. That was his position six weeks ago.
:26:13. > :26:19.Today he writes an article in the Times, 1,000 word article, not one
:26:19. > :26:25.mention of the phrase, "Repatriation of powers." Why does
:26:25. > :26:29.the Prime Minister think it is in the national interests to tell his
:26:29. > :26:35.backbenchers one thing and his European partners another.
:26:35. > :26:39.Yes, what we want to do particularly in the area of
:26:39. > :26:45.financial services, where this country has a massive national
:26:45. > :26:50.interest, let's remind him, it is 10% of GDP, it is 3% of our trade
:26:50. > :26:56.surplus, 7% of UK employment. I want to make sure we have more
:26:56. > :27:01.power and control in the UK to determine these things.
:27:01. > :27:06.Last year the Prime Minister's manifesto promised to repatriate
:27:06. > :27:10.legal rights, criminal justice and employment and social legislation.
:27:10. > :27:13.His article in the Times this morning is silent on these issues
:27:13. > :27:18.and the Justice Secretary said this agenda is not realistic anyway.
:27:18. > :27:24.Does the Prime Minister regret leading his party up the garden
:27:24. > :27:29.path and forcing himself into a choice between ditching his
:27:29. > :27:34.manifesto or vetoing a treaty that maybe essential to avoid huge
:27:34. > :27:38.damage to the UK economy? What I regret is the party opposite gave
:27:38. > :27:42.away so many powers. It is going to take a while to get some of them
:27:42. > :27:45.back. But We're making progress. When he was in Government, when he
:27:45. > :27:49.was in Government, there were repeated increases in the EU budget.
:27:49. > :27:52.This year, we have achieved an EU budget freeze. When he was in
:27:52. > :27:55.Government, he gave away the bail out power and we had to pour
:27:55. > :27:59.billions of pounds into other countries. We've got that power
:27:59. > :28:04.back and I believe with strong negotiations, standing up for
:28:04. > :28:08.Britain, we can help clear up the mess that Labour left us.
:28:08. > :28:13.Can I tell the Prime Minister that small and medium enterprises in my
:28:13. > :28:17.constituency are having grave difficulty accessing reasonable
:28:17. > :28:21.finance and major contributors to that is lack of competition. Will
:28:21. > :28:25.the Government considering breaking up the nationalised banks in order
:28:25. > :28:28.to be able to create more competition on the high street?
:28:28. > :28:33.I do think we have opportunities to increase the competition on the
:28:33. > :28:35.high street and as we look to return the State banks back into
:28:35. > :28:39.the private sector we will have further opportunities. We have
:28:39. > :28:44.managed to take one step forward which is to get Northern Rock back
:28:44. > :28:45.out there, lending to businesses and to households properly
:28:45. > :28:51.established in the north-east of England.
:28:51. > :28:57.The Prime Minister today has refused to accept that women and
:28:57. > :29:04.children will bear the brunt of his failed economic policy. No wonder
:29:04. > :29:08.he continues to turn off women. Will he accept the Treasury's own
:29:08. > :29:13.figures that 100,000 more children will be living in poverty as a
:29:14. > :29:18.result of his policies? What I would say to the honourable
:29:18. > :29:21.lady is how on earth does it advantage women and children to
:29:21. > :29:27.pile them up with debt after debt after debt that they then have to
:29:27. > :29:32.pay back? We have been standing here for 33 minutes, all we've
:29:32. > :29:36.heard is proposals for for tax reductions, for spending increases,
:29:36. > :29:39.for reforms they wouldn't go ahead with, for scrapping the changes to
:29:39. > :29:42.public sector pensions. They would take the women and children that we
:29:42. > :29:46.are concerned about, pile them high with debt and let them live under
:29:46. > :29:50.that burden for the rest of their days.
:29:50. > :29:53.Let's stay at Westminster. Our correspondent is standing by on
:29:53. > :29:58.College Green. Europe is a developing story at
:29:58. > :30:03.Westminster, this week, isn't it? It was interesting at Prime
:30:03. > :30:06.Minister's Questions, something like 14 of the questions in the 35
:30:06. > :30:10.minutes minutes there was at Prime Minister's Questions were to do
:30:10. > :30:14.with Europe. In the last couple of hours, the Mayor of London, Boris
:30:14. > :30:18.Johnson, has added his two pen eth to the argument. He said if there
:30:18. > :30:22.is any economic treaty then Britain must have a referendum on that.
:30:22. > :30:26.That's interesting because Boris Johnson is not always helpful to
:30:26. > :30:32.the Tory cause even though he is the conservative Mayor of London,
:30:32. > :30:34.but significant, in an interview with The Spectator magazine, the
:30:34. > :30:39.Northern Ireland Secretary, said he thinks there will be a referendum
:30:39. > :30:43.on all things European which would on the face of it at least appear
:30:43. > :30:50.to be at odds with what David Cameron is saying. Yes, Europe is a
:30:50. > :30:54.big issue and to discuss that with me I'm joined by two Scottish MPs,
:30:54. > :30:58.one from the Liberal Democrats and one for Labour.
:30:58. > :31:05.As far as Labour is concern, is this a party political issue or is
:31:05. > :31:14.the euro crisis now important that British Parliamentarians have to
:31:15. > :31:18.In a sense, it should not be a party issue. When you have got
:31:18. > :31:22.Conservative MPs obsessed with repatriating powers, when we should
:31:23. > :31:25.be sorting out the European economy. The IMF is predicting that the
:31:25. > :31:30.Eurozone could slip into recession next year. There is a jobs and
:31:30. > :31:32.growth crisis, as well as a debt crisis in Europe. We need to see
:31:33. > :31:36.strong leadership, and the Prime Minister should not be having to
:31:36. > :31:39.negotiate with his own Cabinet or his backbenchers. He should be
:31:39. > :31:43.offering that strong leadership and showing that we need a solution to
:31:43. > :31:47.this, we need a fund that will be sufficient to bail out and deal
:31:47. > :31:51.with countries which get into difficulties, but also that hard
:31:51. > :31:55.wires growth and economic expansion into this crisis. That is what is
:31:55. > :31:58.going to get us out of it. David Cameron has started a of
:31:58. > :32:03.every sentence about Europe, "the most vital and important thing is
:32:03. > :32:06.that we do get a deal to save the Euro". Precisely, but his
:32:06. > :32:11.backbenchers think the most important thing is to repatriate
:32:11. > :32:14.social policy and other powers. You can't have it both ways. You can't
:32:14. > :32:17.give them a Northern Lincolns it this is the most important issue
:32:17. > :32:22.and tried to finesse it when it comes to the economy. The European
:32:22. > :32:25.economy is the most important aspect that faces discussions in
:32:25. > :32:29.Parliament at the moment. It is the biggest trading market. We have to
:32:29. > :32:32.get it right. The Prime Minister should be offering leadership, but
:32:32. > :32:37.today it seems he is offering a surrender to some of his
:32:37. > :32:40.backbenchers. Your party is part of the coalition, the smaller party in
:32:40. > :32:45.the coalition. It is generally thought to be more Europhile than
:32:45. > :32:50.most parties at Westminster. How much a big problem is this for the
:32:50. > :32:54.coalition? I agree with what Willie has been saying. This is not about
:32:54. > :32:58.party politics. It is not about what is happening within the
:32:58. > :33:02.coalition. It is more important than that. What we do need to do is
:33:02. > :33:06.sort at the Eurozone crisis, and that means strong leadership, not
:33:06. > :33:12.only from David Cameron, George Osborne, but also, more importantly,
:33:12. > :33:18.from the European leaders. We have had a talk of big bazookas now for
:33:18. > :33:22.about two months. It really has got to the stage where we need action,
:33:22. > :33:28.tough action, and fast action to sort this crisis at. You in the
:33:28. > :33:34.House of Commons, you saw how MP after MP, Tory MP after Tory MP,
:33:34. > :33:39.stood up and said, yes, if you get a deal, we want a say on that and
:33:39. > :33:44.the UK wants a say on that. Yes, but the Lib Dems have probably been
:33:44. > :33:48.the party that has maintained its mind in the greatest possible way
:33:48. > :33:51.throughout all of this Parliament and before. We have always said
:33:51. > :33:54.that if there is a significant treaty that alters the balance of
:33:54. > :33:58.power between Europe and Britain that we should have a referendum,
:33:58. > :34:02.but that is not what has happened in the last 18 months. I don't
:34:02. > :34:05.think it is what is going to happen in the next week. But if it is,
:34:05. > :34:09.then that is the stance that we should have. Really, this is not
:34:09. > :34:15.what we need right now. A referendum on Europe it would be a
:34:15. > :34:20.massive diversion from the real struggle that we have in the
:34:20. > :34:25.economy, and it is not what we should be looking for. A question
:34:25. > :34:29.to you both. Is it perhaps a case that the general electorate is more
:34:29. > :34:33.Euro-sceptic than MPs generally? And perhaps, MPs are slightly out
:34:33. > :34:37.of step with the electorate? don't believe so. I think Europe
:34:37. > :34:40.needs to be reformed. We need to complete the single market because
:34:41. > :34:45.that will drive growth. Having a single energy market would create
:34:45. > :34:49.new opportunities for Scottish jobs, for UK jobs in the energy sector. I
:34:49. > :34:53.think we should be getting on and doing things like that, but not
:34:53. > :34:56.repatriating social policy. The priority is not about ending
:34:56. > :35:00.workers' rights or destroying the protections that have been hard
:35:00. > :35:03.fought in Europe. We need growth and jobs in Europe, and we have it
:35:03. > :35:08.by making sure that those countries which have the ability to spend a
:35:08. > :35:11.bit more, as Germany and some of the other countries do, do so to
:35:11. > :35:15.help the solidarity with the other states who are in difficulty.
:35:15. > :35:20.same question to you, are you out of step with the electorate?
:35:20. > :35:25.don't think so. When people are given a full explanation of how
:35:25. > :35:29.much of our trade is with Europe, what a separation would actually
:35:29. > :35:34.mean, that they are, by and large, supportive of being part of Europe
:35:35. > :35:38.because that is where the majority of our trade is. If it wasn't going
:35:38. > :35:41.there, if we somehow started to look for trade elsewhere, that
:35:41. > :35:45.would be a massive blow to our economy and we would see jobs lost,
:35:45. > :35:49.we would see a massive hit on the economic growth in this country. I
:35:50. > :35:53.did think that is what the UK people want to see. A brief
:35:53. > :35:57.question - do you think we will get a deal on the euro crisis this
:35:57. > :36:02.week? We need one, and the Prime Minister should be fighting for
:36:02. > :36:07.that, not fighting with his own party. I am hopeful that we will
:36:07. > :36:12.get a deal, but this has gone on for too long. I am heartened by
:36:12. > :36:14.what David Cameron said today. He is absolutely clear about the need
:36:14. > :36:19.for protecting financial services in this country, about trying to
:36:19. > :36:22.get a deal in Europe, and not focused on trying to renegotiate
:36:22. > :36:26.these social chapter or anything else. Thank you both for joining us
:36:26. > :36:30.this afternoon. Andrew, you get a flavour of the feeling down here at
:36:30. > :36:34.Westminster. Certainly, Europe is one of those issues which again is
:36:34. > :36:37.coming back and seems to be causing quite a few problems for the Prime
:36:37. > :36:40.Minister. You it certainly does, thank you for that. In the past few
:36:40. > :36:42.minutes, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs has made a statement
:36:43. > :36:51.on the Cod Recovery Plan. Our Political Correspondent Cameron
:36:52. > :36:56.Buttle joins us now. What is the background to this?
:36:56. > :36:59.This all centres around the concern from the EU that Scottish waters
:36:59. > :37:03.are being over-fished. This is all about how long Scottish boats can
:37:03. > :37:08.spend at sea, and that has a huge impact on Scottish fishermen. We
:37:08. > :37:12.are talking about an industry worth �445 million. It employs 5,000
:37:12. > :37:16.people. UK and Scottish fisheries ministers are working together on
:37:16. > :37:24.this and presenting a united front. They are disputing EU figures over
:37:24. > :37:28.cod catch. They say got accounts for 5% of Scotland's total catch.
:37:28. > :37:31.Those EU figures could lead to cuts in time at sea which could
:37:31. > :37:35.potentially have devastating consequences for the Scottish
:37:35. > :37:41.fishing industry. What did the Cabinet sector have to say? He was
:37:41. > :37:45.pretty bullish. They are still talking about it in the chamber. He
:37:45. > :37:49.is talking tough. He says the EU approach is fatally flawed. They
:37:49. > :37:54.are demanding that stocks are demanded -- decided on a case-by-
:37:54. > :37:59.case basis. With regard to court, he says that since 2007, the cod
:37:59. > :38:02.catch has more than half. He claims that cod catch is still low but
:38:02. > :38:06.steadily recovering. Because of these EU figures, he said they are
:38:06. > :38:10.facing the prospect of massive cuts in time spent at sea for Scottish
:38:10. > :38:16.vessels. He claims that EU officials have made decisions
:38:16. > :38:21.through illegal technicality and he says these figures don't make sense.
:38:21. > :38:25.He says enough is enough - of these figures and moves up not
:38:25. > :38:29.justifiable. He says he will have a strong voice and looks to have a
:38:29. > :38:33.strong impact on the stocks which take place next week. Thank you for
:38:33. > :38:37.that. Let's get some industry reaction
:38:37. > :38:41.from Alan Coghill, President of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,
:38:41. > :38:45.and he is in Edinburgh studio. We have just had that statement in the
:38:45. > :38:49.past few minutes. I take it there is a great deal of concern in the
:38:49. > :38:53.industry at the moment about these talks coming up, and what might
:38:53. > :38:57.happen for the industry? Yes, indeed. We have suffered a great
:38:57. > :39:01.deal of pain to achieve where we are at the present time. The
:39:01. > :39:06.Scottish fishing industry has taken a great deal of measures to improve
:39:06. > :39:10.the situation, to cut the mortality of cod, which is the basis for the
:39:10. > :39:14.Cod Recovery Plan, and we are made -- now faced with cuts which will
:39:14. > :39:19.make our fleet unviable. It is not just a case of boats at sea. It is
:39:19. > :39:23.about jobs at sea and on shore. It would be a major blow to Scotland
:39:23. > :39:27.if this was carried through. have seen massive cuts in the fleet
:39:27. > :39:33.over the past 10 years, and you say these cuts could make it unviable.
:39:33. > :39:38.How many boats could be lost if these cuts to go ahead? We have
:39:38. > :39:43.already seen some 300 boats taken out of the Scottish fleet over the
:39:43. > :39:48.last 10 years. With the present proposals of something like 50 days
:39:48. > :39:53.at sea for white fish boats, this would make all but those who are
:39:53. > :39:58.able to go on to cash totally unviable. Politically, how does
:39:58. > :40:04.this work? Cameron Buttle was telling us there is a united front,
:40:04. > :40:07.the four home nations are making the same. To Brussels. Is there a
:40:07. > :40:14.possibility that this could be overturned? Did they carry enough
:40:14. > :40:17.weight to get that overturned? we can only try. It will take a
:40:17. > :40:21.very determined effort, but the industry is wholly behind the
:40:21. > :40:28.government in trying to make the efforts and to try and prove the
:40:28. > :40:30.case. We are back in this by some of the responsible environmental
:40:30. > :40:35.organisations who have been totally with us in what we have carried out
:40:35. > :40:40.in a conservation credit scheme and so on. They have been part of this.
:40:40. > :40:46.The fishing fleet themselves have carried out measures in
:40:46. > :40:48.conservation and buying new gear and taking cameras aboard - there
:40:49. > :40:52.are so many things we have done that we have not been given credit
:40:52. > :40:55.for. Is there a danger of the industry being accused of crying
:40:55. > :40:59.wolf? 10 years ago we thought this was the end of the industry because
:40:59. > :41:02.of the massive cuts in the fleet, and now we are hearing this rather
:41:02. > :41:07.bleak outlook. Do you think the industry could be accused of crying
:41:07. > :41:11.wolf? Certainly, some people would see it that way. In effect, what
:41:11. > :41:16.we're saying now is that we have endured all these cuts over a
:41:16. > :41:21.period. We have made the best of them. We have lost a lot of boats
:41:21. > :41:26.in the time, and we are now at a stage where we need to ensure that
:41:26. > :41:29.we have got supplies ashore and afloat, and we have got to look
:41:29. > :41:33.hard at this. We really have to look at the whole system of where
:41:33. > :41:38.we are. Alan Coghill from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,
:41:38. > :41:41.thank you for joining me. I am joined once again by Professor
:41:41. > :41:46.John Curtice from Strathclyde University. Let's go back to what
:41:46. > :41:49.we were talking about at Westminster and the developing a
:41:49. > :41:53.euro problems. It is a developing problem for David Cameron as well,
:41:53. > :41:58.isn't it? There are two reasons why it is a problem for David Cameron.
:41:58. > :42:03.Number one is that it is opening a fissure between the conservative
:42:03. > :42:06.elements of the Government and Conservative backbenchers. Many new
:42:06. > :42:11.Conservative backbenchers are pretty Euro-sceptic. One of two of
:42:11. > :42:15.them would clearly like to get out of the EU. They feel that the
:42:15. > :42:19.existing coalition stance, which is essentially that we will have a
:42:19. > :42:24.referendum if there are proposals for Britain to give more powers to
:42:24. > :42:28.Brussels, but that equally the Conservatives wish to try to
:42:28. > :42:32.negotiate existing powers back from Brussels, which is part of the
:42:32. > :42:36.Conservative manifesto - that was effectively dropped. In a sense,
:42:36. > :42:40.they are hoping that if there has to be an EU treaty because of the
:42:40. > :42:44.Eurozone crisis, maybe that could be used as a lever to try and get
:42:44. > :42:48.some of that, despite the fact it is not coalition policy. Secondly,
:42:48. > :42:50.it is a problem for David Cameron because it causes tension between
:42:51. > :42:54.the Conservative ministers in the government and the Liberal
:42:54. > :42:58.Democrats. The Lib Dems, although they are nothing like as Europhile
:42:58. > :43:01.as there were a few years ago, are undoubtedly most pro-European of
:43:01. > :43:05.the parties. That policy stance of the coalition was essentially the
:43:05. > :43:08.compromise between the two parties. In a sense, it was a compromise
:43:08. > :43:11.that was predicated on the assumption that Europe would not be
:43:11. > :43:14.a significant issue for this government, for the duration of its
:43:14. > :43:20.five-year term. Well, that expectation has been overturned
:43:20. > :43:24.because of the Eurozone crisis, and there by that old tension and
:43:24. > :43:29.argument that Europe as a result has resurfaced to the Government's
:43:29. > :43:33.potential political difficulty. are one of the core 1000 of the
:43:33. > :43:37.Scottish Social attitudes Survey - one interesting point in that was
:43:37. > :43:43.as 65% of Scots would support independence if there were �500
:43:43. > :43:47.better off. It does lead to people saying baby are -- they are being
:43:47. > :43:51.bought and sold for some and bold. We gave people a set of three
:43:51. > :43:54.questions. Festival, let's assume that it was accepted that the
:43:54. > :43:59.standard of living in Scotland under independence will be the same
:43:59. > :44:07.as at the moment - how would you vote? We then said, what would you
:44:07. > :44:12.do if Scotland were to be �500 worth -- worst of it. But many 25%
:44:12. > :44:17.instead of 50% voted for independence. And what if you were
:44:17. > :44:20.�500 better off? And 65% said they would vote. This is a simple way of
:44:20. > :44:24.highlighting a point that is very clearly there in the underlying
:44:24. > :44:28.survey data, and that is that at the moment, if you think that
:44:28. > :44:33.Scotland would be better off, Scott and's economy would be stronger in
:44:33. > :44:36.the wake of independence, you tend to fail confident about the idea,
:44:36. > :44:40.and if you feel confident about the idea then you tend to be famed for
:44:40. > :44:43.-- in favour of independence. But if you think that Scotland's
:44:43. > :44:46.economy would be weaker at the moment, you tend to be worried
:44:46. > :44:50.about the consequences of independence, and therefore you
:44:51. > :44:54.tend not to back it. It is already clearly there in the things that
:44:54. > :45:01.are already shaping people's attitudes towards independence. The
:45:01. > :45:05.other thing that emerges is that at the moment people are not clear if
:45:05. > :45:09.they would be �500 better or worse off. We have got about a third of
:45:09. > :45:13.people saying that Scotland's economy would be better and
:45:13. > :45:21.independence. Fewer than that but not far short of a third say that
:45:21. > :45:24.they would be weaker. With the other third in the middle. It is
:45:24. > :45:28.clear that this economic argument is crucial. The debate about
:45:28. > :45:32.independence is partly about identity and partly about our
:45:32. > :45:36.Scottishness, but it is also about whether or not we can link identity
:45:36. > :45:41.to economic advantage or not. On that second issue, the debate has
:45:41. > :45:44.not been won or lost by either side. Unionists think we are afraid of
:45:44. > :45:47.independence but they are exaggerating the case. Equally,
:45:47. > :45:57.Alex Salmond has a lot of work to do to persuade the majority of
:45:57. > :45:57.
:45:57. > :46:04.people in Scotland that this was of I am joined by Murdoch Frazer and
:46:04. > :46:09.Robb Gibson from the SNP. Good afternoon, gentleman. Let's hear
:46:09. > :46:12.your reaction to the news. The Energy Minister clearly pointing
:46:12. > :46:17.out the decision why the line couldn't be put underground. He
:46:17. > :46:21.made a strong case, didn't he? is a slap in the face for the the
:46:21. > :46:24.community in Stirling who were united they wanted to see
:46:24. > :46:32.undergrounding. You have to remember it wean just the people of
:46:32. > :46:39.Stirling, it was Stirling Council including the SNP group on the
:46:39. > :46:45.council, two local Scottish ministers were firm in case their
:46:45. > :46:49.case for undergrounding. This decision will be viewed with dismay
:46:49. > :46:53.by people in Stirling. They will feel the Scottish Government avoid
:46:53. > :46:57.their views and they will wonder what is the point in having
:46:57. > :47:03.consultations if their views are ignored.
:47:03. > :47:11.People will be disappointed, but the fact is the cost was �263
:47:11. > :47:16.million as the Energy Minister pointed out. It was �263 million
:47:16. > :47:21.million spread over a UK population of 60 million over the lifetime of
:47:21. > :47:25.this line which would be decades. It would amount to pennies per year
:47:25. > :47:30.on the electricity bill of every consumer in the country as against
:47:30. > :47:33.the billions of pounds that we are paying as a subsidy towards
:47:33. > :47:39.renewable energy energy projects across the country. From the point
:47:39. > :47:43.of view of protecting the landscape and the environment and around
:47:43. > :47:48.Stirling, it was a price worth paying and and that was the viewed
:47:48. > :47:53.shared by all political parties representing Stirling.
:47:53. > :47:56.Robb Gibson, what would you have to say? The SNP made a big play about
:47:56. > :48:01.looking into this before the election election because SNP
:48:01. > :48:04.candidates were getting it in the neck on the doorstep, on this side
:48:04. > :48:09.of the election, you come back with this disappointing news for them?
:48:09. > :48:16.The cost element is very important. It is It is important to recognise
:48:16. > :48:20.for a fraction of the cost for undergrounding a lot of mitigations
:48:20. > :48:26.and biodiversity projects will help the environment around Stirling,
:48:26. > :48:36.but it will allow people to take part in the huge mitigation of
:48:36. > :48:38.
:48:38. > :48:41.climate gases which this line helps. That power is going to power the
:48:41. > :48:44.central belt and further south in the future. So Stirling can play
:48:44. > :48:48.its part and indeed there will be many jobs for people in Stirling as
:48:48. > :48:51.a result. Do you think painting the pylons
:48:51. > :48:56.green will make that much of a difference for people living in the
:48:56. > :48:59.area? Well, I wonder if people have seen the pylons or whether they
:48:59. > :49:05.disappear into the landscape. I believe when it is built, it will
:49:05. > :49:09.not be noticed so much and I don't believe that the concerns which
:49:09. > :49:14.people have are grounded in the fact that they feel it is an
:49:14. > :49:19.interference, but the minister has taken every concern of the reporter
:49:19. > :49:22.and the consultants to make sure that some changes have been made
:49:22. > :49:27.and the Undergrounding of the line is one of of these.
:49:27. > :49:31.Do you accept the SNP were disahonest about this -- disHonnest
:49:31. > :49:35.about this, they could have misled people in the run-up of the
:49:35. > :49:39.election? This is a vast scheme. It is part of a vital national project
:49:39. > :49:42.and getting it right was what the previous Energy Minister said. That
:49:43. > :49:50.consultation with local people did take place. That is honourable and
:49:50. > :49:53.indeed, they have been listened to. Rob Gibson was pointing out that it
:49:53. > :49:56.is a necessary energy scheme. Do you accept that and people have to
:49:56. > :50:01.live unfortunately with the consequences? We've never argued
:50:01. > :50:04.against the need for the power line upgrade. Our argument was that it
:50:04. > :50:11.was possible to accommodate undergrounding in sensitive areas
:50:11. > :50:14.at a cost which in relation to the broader landscape would have been
:50:14. > :50:17.an insignificant one overall. People in Stirling will be
:50:17. > :50:21.disappointed by the decision and they will feel the Scottish
:50:21. > :50:25.Government says one thing in advance of an election and
:50:25. > :50:28.something different once the election is out of the way.
:50:28. > :50:31.Thank you very much. The Chancellor made his Autumn
:50:31. > :50:36.Statement last week with those disappointing growth figures that
:50:36. > :50:46.has an impact on Scotland and the finance secretary, John Swinney is
:50:46. > :50:53.
:50:53. > :50:56.giving his reaction in the chamber Would he accept that the United
:50:56. > :51:05.Kingdom coalition Government inherited a level of debt that was
:51:05. > :51:09.the largest in the G7? I know she follows my contribution
:51:09. > :51:14.ins Parliament. I -- contributions in Parliament. I don't think she
:51:14. > :51:21.will have noticed me shirking from apportioning responsibility to the
:51:21. > :51:25.difficult inheritance that faced the Conservative-Liberal Government
:51:25. > :51:29.in the summer of 2010. My point is the point about balance between
:51:29. > :51:33.fiscal consolidation and promoting economic growth and if I look back
:51:33. > :51:37.to my proposition that I was advancing before the Autumn
:51:37. > :51:41.Statement of additional borrowing of �20 billion for example to
:51:42. > :51:47.invest in capital investment which would have had an effect in
:51:47. > :51:50.Scotland of about �2 billion. There was an element of opinion which was
:51:50. > :51:57.saying this was a terrible amount of extra money to borrow and then
:51:57. > :52:03.we fin the Chancellor is -- find the Chancellor is borrowing �158
:52:03. > :52:07.billion more than he forecast in 2010. That made me more modest in
:52:07. > :52:10.the propositions I was putting forward in that context. This is
:52:10. > :52:14.the point about what is the balance of preparing the public finances
:52:14. > :52:19.with the incentives and the encouragement to promote economic
:52:19. > :52:22.growth within our society. And the lack of a coherent economic plab
:52:22. > :52:27.from the United Kingdom and the decision to cut public expenditure
:52:27. > :52:31.too quickly and too deeply brought that economic recovery to a very
:52:31. > :52:35.clear halt. Now, we, as a Government, have not been alone in
:52:35. > :52:39.setting out our concerns. For the last 14 months, we have joined with
:52:39. > :52:42.the other devolved administrations to speak out against the pace and
:52:42. > :52:50.the scale of the spending cuts and to call on the Chancellor to
:52:50. > :52:54.respond to the to the weakening economic economic outlook.
:52:54. > :52:58.And I characterised the scale of investment that we thought was
:52:58. > :53:08.important, but the UK Government's policies are not supporting growth.
:53:08. > :53:09.
:53:09. > :53:16.The UK economy grew by 0.5% and the OBR's forecast suggests it will
:53:17. > :53:24.shrink during the following quarter. Recovery is vital in the UK to
:53:24. > :53:28.Scotland's recovery. Can I ask what impact this will
:53:28. > :53:33.have on the Scottish Government's Spending Review? And what impact it
:53:33. > :53:38.will have on business rates revenue forecasts? That's a fair point.
:53:38. > :53:44.What I would point him to is the evidence I shared with the economy
:53:44. > :53:49.committee some weeks ago which was that in the year of greatest
:53:49. > :53:53.economic difficulty of 2008/2009, there was still an increase in the
:53:53. > :53:57.overall take of business rates because of buoyancy within the
:53:57. > :54:02.business rates equation. As I've also said to Parliament, I keep
:54:02. > :54:06.these factors under review, but what commitments we make in the
:54:06. > :54:09.Spending Review to the provision of non-domistic rates income and it
:54:09. > :54:13.will be a subject that that will be part of the Local Government
:54:13. > :54:18.statement tomorrow to Parliament when we offer that figure, the
:54:18. > :54:22.Government is guaranteeing that figure as part of the Spending
:54:22. > :54:26.Review settlement. This Government will do all that we can within the
:54:26. > :54:30.economic powers that we have to support economic recovery, enhance
:54:30. > :54:34.economic security and to create employment. As a result of our
:54:34. > :54:38.actions, Scotland's recession was short and shallower than for the
:54:38. > :54:42.rest of the UK k and we have a a -- United Kingdom and we have a higher
:54:42. > :54:45.rate of employment than the rest of the UK. The work of our enterprise
:54:45. > :54:53.agencies is helping to attract new investment and major international
:54:53. > :54:57.companies to Scotland, Del, Amazon, are just a few of the companies
:54:57. > :55:01.that announced new investments in Scotland and we continue to embark
:55:01. > :55:05.on ambitious proposals to connect with major developing markets in
:55:05. > :55:13.China, there is a continued drive for global, there is a continued
:55:13. > :55:16.driver of of of global growth and we are working hard to create
:55:16. > :55:23.opportunities for Scottish companies.
:55:23. > :55:26.Well, let's pick up on a couple of issues with Professor John Curtice.
:55:26. > :55:32.The finance secretary was saying, it was the usual comments, I
:55:32. > :55:37.suppose, but how did the Autumn Statement leave Scotland? The truth
:55:37. > :55:41.is it leaves Scotland in the same pickle as the rest of the United
:55:41. > :55:46.Kingdom. A situation of low growth and strain on the public finances.
:55:46. > :55:50.I suppose if John Swinney were feeling charity charitable, he
:55:50. > :55:57.might have been willing to point out in some respects, one element
:55:57. > :56:00.of the Autumn Statement mirrored the SNP's strategy. The SNP has
:56:00. > :56:04.actually shifted current expenditure into capital
:56:04. > :56:07.expenditure on the grounds this is a way of promoting growth. Although
:56:07. > :56:12.Mr Osbourne couldn't shift a great deal, he in the Autumn Statement,
:56:12. > :56:18.one of the few things that was in it in terms of trying to promote
:56:18. > :56:24.growth, was shifting things out of overseas expenditure towards
:56:24. > :56:30.capital expenditure. Mr Osbourne has been reading Mr Swinney's
:56:30. > :56:37.speeches more than Mr Swinney would care to acknowledge.
:56:37. > :56:41.Do you think it was a proud edifice they have built up or was it built
:56:41. > :56:45.up on a base of sand? Under the Scotland Bill that's going through
:56:45. > :56:53.Westminster and assuming Holyrood accede to being passed, the
:56:54. > :56:57.Scottish Government will have a degree of borrowing power.
:56:57. > :57:02.It It served two function, one to give some idea there are things in
:57:02. > :57:05.the short-term that the Government is helping to achieve in existing
:57:05. > :57:09.financial constraints. It would have part of the broader thing that
:57:09. > :57:13.this Government is trying to do which is to make people feel
:57:13. > :57:17.confident about Scotland's future and it was saying, "An independent
:57:17. > :57:21.Scotland, these are the kinds of ambitions we have." In general,
:57:21. > :57:26.despite the economic backdrop, on the one hand the Government has got
:57:26. > :57:29.to be criticising the current UK Government, it is always they are
:57:29. > :57:33.going to be paining this vision that things will be better under
:57:33. > :57:39.independence because that's part of the wider independence argument.
:57:39. > :57:42.John, this is the Christmas card that the Chief Secretary to the
:57:42. > :57:50.Treasury, Danny Alexander was giving out. He was called a ginger
:57:50. > :57:53.rodent by the deputy Labour Party leader, Harriet Harman in 2010 and
:57:53. > :57:58.his card is a red squirrel. It shows some people have a sense of
:57:58. > :58:04.humour. Maybe Harriet will be sent a card
:58:04. > :58:10.by the chief secretary! Danny Alexander one of the key
:58:10. > :58:13.figures in Westminster now? He is one of these crucial roles, he is
:58:13. > :58:18.responsible fort nation's public expenditure and he has been
:58:18. > :58:24.involved in trying to cut public expenditure. Some people felt in
:58:24. > :58:29.some respects Danny Alexander is seen as keener on this than some of
:58:29. > :58:32.his Conservative colleagues. Danny Alexander is one of the four people
:58:32. > :58:35.together with Francis Maude and the Deputy Prime Minister who are
:58:35. > :58:39.responsible for keeping the coalition together on a day-to-day
:58:39. > :58:44.basis. He is a crucial player at Westminster.