:00:16. > :00:19.Good afternoon and welcome to the programme.
:00:20. > :00:21.The Scottish Government's top law officer is to argue that Holyrood
:00:22. > :00:25.needs to be consulted before the UK can begin the formal
:00:26. > :00:29.And as standards of reading and science in Scottish
:00:30. > :00:42.schools are declining, at least relatively, is Curriculum
:00:43. > :00:46.And here at Westminster, MPs have begun debating the UK
:00:47. > :00:48.Government's timetable for leaving the European Union.
:00:49. > :00:50.It's day three of the four-day hearing at the Supreme Court
:00:51. > :00:54.as lawyers make the case as to why parliament and not government has
:00:55. > :00:56.the authority to trigger Article 50 to leave the European Union.
:00:57. > :00:59.The Lord Advocate, James Wolffe, is expected to make
:01:00. > :01:01.the Scottish Government's case later today.
:01:02. > :01:02.Our political correspondent Nick Eardley is outside
:01:03. > :01:16.What is the Lord advocate going to say? Well, Gordon, his argument is
:01:17. > :01:23.based on two things. Firstly, that it is Parliament, not government,
:01:24. > :01:30.under Scots law, which can change legislation. He will build on that
:01:31. > :01:33.and say that it would affect devolved areas, and for this reason,
:01:34. > :01:39.Holyrood would also have to give its consent. He says in particular that
:01:40. > :01:41.leaving the EU would change the competence of the Scottish
:01:42. > :01:45.Government and the Scottish Parliament, and also that laws
:01:46. > :01:49.passed by Holyrood which were aimed at Scotland but which were designed
:01:50. > :01:53.around EU law come which had been required as a result of our EU
:01:54. > :01:58.membership, that they will also change when the UK leaves the EU. In
:01:59. > :02:03.summary, he says that means that under the load legislative consent
:02:04. > :02:07.process, Holyrood must have its say, too. I take it that is someone
:02:08. > :02:11.having some kind of protest in the background, not selling sports
:02:12. > :02:16.socks? There are a number of interested parties in this process,
:02:17. > :02:21.Gordon. This man seems to be talking about something which is not quite
:02:22. > :02:25.to do with the case! What has happened earlier today? So far,
:02:26. > :02:31.we've had the UK Government making its case that the royal prerogative,
:02:32. > :02:36.executive powers, are enough to start the Brexit process, triggering
:02:37. > :02:41.Article 50. That's based on their belief that the referendum
:02:42. > :02:45.transferred the decision to the people, and they told the government
:02:46. > :02:49.to act on their will, which was to get us out of the European Union.
:02:50. > :02:53.They argue that when Parliament agreed to hold the referendum, that
:02:54. > :02:56.gave the consent to the UK Government to go ahead and trigger
:02:57. > :03:00.article 50. This morning we have heard a summary of the ordinance
:03:01. > :03:05.against, the argument which was successful at the High Court before,
:03:06. > :03:08.which was that essentially, Parliament still needs to have its
:03:09. > :03:11.say, because it is sovereign. Well, over at Parliament
:03:12. > :03:13.it's a rather busy day. Let's speak to our Westminster
:03:14. > :03:20.correspondent David Porter. You do not seem to have so many
:03:21. > :03:25.people shouting at you as make had? Not yes,, anyway trick there is an
:03:26. > :03:33.awful lot going on here in the Houses of Parliament. We have had
:03:34. > :03:37.the Scottish minister in charge of Brexit appearing before MPs today.
:03:38. > :03:42.He has been appearing before the Scottish Affairs Committee, looking
:03:43. > :03:47.at Scotland's relationship with Europe. He, Mike Russell, is now
:03:48. > :03:51.about to go into a meeting with UK ministers and ministers from the
:03:52. > :03:55.devolved nations, a Brexit committee where they are discussing the nuts
:03:56. > :03:59.and bolts of how Brexit will happen. And as we speak in the House of
:04:00. > :04:02.Commons behind me, MPs are discussing the timetable which has
:04:03. > :04:08.been put forward by the UK Government for leaving the European
:04:09. > :04:12.Union. On each of these specific meetings, very interesting
:04:13. > :04:18.information coming out. It shows in spades I think how one issue,
:04:19. > :04:22.Brexit, is dominating This Place behind me, and of course, as we have
:04:23. > :04:27.been hearing from nick, a few hundred yards up the road come of
:04:28. > :04:32.the legal and political processes, focused on one issue at the moment,
:04:33. > :04:35.and that is Brexit. You say there is some interesting information coming
:04:36. > :04:40.out, but are we getting anywhere, are we getting any clearer on any of
:04:41. > :04:44.this? We are inching forward to. It is true to say that we are not
:04:45. > :04:47.perhaps getting the road map that we would all like, but we are inching
:04:48. > :04:54.forward with information. Let's take the Scottish Affairs Committee,
:04:55. > :04:57.where Mike Russell was giving information, and we are getting a
:04:58. > :05:01.feeling of how those negotiations are going between the UK Government
:05:02. > :05:05.and the devolved administrations. He admitted that he was frustrated by
:05:06. > :05:10.the pace of negotiations. He said it was not really discussions at the
:05:11. > :05:14.moment -- it was not really negotiations at the moment, it was
:05:15. > :05:19.just discussions. He also said that it was self-evident that if the UK
:05:20. > :05:24.left the European Union, they would no longer be members of the single
:05:25. > :05:29.market. That is a lot different, to access to the single market. This
:05:30. > :05:36.afternoon we will be getting towards discussing article 50. And talking
:05:37. > :05:41.about the government showing us a plan about its approach to article
:05:42. > :05:49.50. But that could mean lots of different things to different
:05:50. > :05:57.people, that plan. Crucially, adding that article 50 must be triggered by
:05:58. > :05:59.the end of March next year. Don't go away, we will be back with you later
:06:00. > :06:01.on. Now, the Scottish Labour leader,
:06:02. > :06:03.Kezia Dugdale, is calling for a new Act of Union to transform
:06:04. > :06:05.the constitutional Our political editor,
:06:06. > :06:20.Brian Taylor, can tell us more. This is Labour, 2.0, is it? I think
:06:21. > :06:25.success of Scottish Labour leaders here at Holyrood have really
:06:26. > :06:29.struggled to find a convincing, coherent narrative to deal with the
:06:30. > :06:33.constitution, to a large extent because they did not want to be
:06:34. > :06:36.going down that road. They wanted to be talking about socialism and
:06:37. > :06:43.poverty and issues which are traditionally associated with the
:06:44. > :06:49.Labour Party. It remains the fault line in Scotland, pushed up the
:06:50. > :06:53.rankings again by Brexit, that constitutional question. On the one
:06:54. > :06:58.hand Labour could not match the SNP for, if you like, standing up for
:06:59. > :07:01.Scotland, as the SNP would say. On the other hand Labour found
:07:02. > :07:06.themselves increasingly unable to match the Conservative Party with
:07:07. > :07:08.its resurgent unionist offering. And the Labour Party were slightly
:07:09. > :07:12.nervous about the word unionist, with connotations from Northern
:07:13. > :07:17.Ireland which sometimes wash over to Scotland. They are now seeking a way
:07:18. > :07:27.through, an answer to that conundrum. And Kezia Dugdale says
:07:28. > :07:31.this lies potentially in English regionalism, added to the nations,
:07:32. > :07:35.it lies in added powers for Holyrood, including over employment
:07:36. > :07:40.issues. She believes that this gives Labour a narrative, a narrative to
:07:41. > :07:47.offer to compete with the Conservative Sandi SNP. The Scottish
:07:48. > :07:50.Labour Party is our giving a federal solution for the whole of the United
:07:51. > :07:55.Kingdom, where we can devolve more powers to Scotland to reflect our
:07:56. > :07:58.own circumstances. We are very firmly saying that we want to remain
:07:59. > :08:01.part of the United Kingdom, because it's the best possible way to
:08:02. > :08:07.redistribute wealth across our islands. That is what people voted
:08:08. > :08:12.for in 2014. This might be very fine, but I wonder about the timing
:08:13. > :08:14.of it. There is lots of focus at the moment on the perceived failings of
:08:15. > :08:21.the Scottish Government on things like health and education. Everybody
:08:22. > :08:25.is talking about Brexit, and Labour go, hey, there is a zebra, and talk
:08:26. > :08:31.about something completed different, I wonder whether anyone is paying
:08:32. > :08:34.any attention! The rivals at Holyrood are saying this is
:08:35. > :08:41.desperation by Labour. They are also talking about Jeremy Corbyn and the
:08:42. > :08:44.idea of a constitutional convention - is that part of Labour Party
:08:45. > :08:49.policy to go down the road of regionalism? But Kezia Dugdale
:08:50. > :08:57.putting this forward is frankly strategic as well as policy. She is
:08:58. > :09:02.not going to give up the challenge over health and education. And some
:09:03. > :09:06.in the Labour ranks leave she was effective when she was saying to
:09:07. > :09:09.Nicola Sturgeon, stick to the day job. But perhaps reluctantly they
:09:10. > :09:14.have come to the conclusion that they need a story on the table with
:09:15. > :09:18.regard to the constitutional question. And they believe that this
:09:19. > :09:22.story on the table about the Scottish situation and the UK
:09:23. > :09:26.situation, and the need to maintain that, they believe it gives them a
:09:27. > :09:32.narrative to begin discussions about Brexit, about the UK's place in
:09:33. > :09:39.relation to European nations and Scotland's place as well.
:09:40. > :09:42.Well, to discuss the day's stories, I'm joined by the Daily
:09:43. > :09:44.Record's Political Editor, David Clegg.
:09:45. > :09:49.What do you make of this Labour thing? I think it speaks to the
:09:50. > :09:55.uncertainty that exit has brought about and what Labour and especially
:09:56. > :10:01.Scottish Labour's response to it should be. There was a bit of a
:10:02. > :10:05.controversy when Kezia Dugdale was quoted in an interview saying that
:10:06. > :10:08.it was not inconceivable that she could support Scottish independence
:10:09. > :10:11.if there was a vote to leave the European Union. That subsequently
:10:12. > :10:15.happened and what the Scottish Labour response to it is going to be
:10:16. > :10:18.in response to the constitution has been one of the questions which
:10:19. > :10:22.Kezia Dugdale and the people around her have struggled with. This today
:10:23. > :10:27.is about Brexit as much as it is about Labour's response to the
:10:28. > :10:35.Scottish question. They think there is an opportunity with Brexit
:10:36. > :10:40.problems, and all the upheaval, to maybe look again at how we can
:10:41. > :10:44.resolve the desire for independence amongst such a strong minority in
:10:45. > :10:49.Scotland and what Labour's response to that is. But I do agree on one
:10:50. > :10:53.issue, that it has been felt in the last few weeks, I feel, at the
:10:54. > :10:59.Scottish Parliament, that Labour in opposition are beginning to make
:11:00. > :11:01.some headway as regards chipping away at the SNP's previously
:11:02. > :11:10.impervious reputation for efficiency in government. We've seen health
:11:11. > :11:14.stats, education stats, problems with the trains. So the fact that
:11:15. > :11:18.they're once again having to switch attention to the Costa Jewish and I
:11:19. > :11:22.think will be a for them. They pick a quiet period and then say, we're
:11:23. > :11:29.going to relaunch the Scottish Labour Party, here's how we're going
:11:30. > :11:35.to do it. Pick a quiet period perhaps, but there's not been many
:11:36. > :11:38.quiet periods in Scottish politics! What is your take on the court case
:11:39. > :11:42.in London? I think the Scottish element is actually the most
:11:43. > :11:46.important. I was interviewing Sir Keir Starmer yesterday and he was
:11:47. > :11:51.very clear that the Labour Party will not frustrate Article 54 so, I
:11:52. > :11:55.don't think Theresa May has a lot to worry about from the Westminster
:11:56. > :11:59.Parliament in regards to that. If there is a finding that not only
:12:00. > :12:04.does Westminster have to have a say, but the Scottish Parliament should
:12:05. > :12:10.also get to express its view on that, then that is a major, major
:12:11. > :12:12.headache for the UK Government, because it's inconceivable I think
:12:13. > :12:21.that the Scottish Parliament would vote to trigger Article 50 and that
:12:22. > :12:29.could lead to a constitutional crisis. Alex Salmond was saying that
:12:30. > :12:33.it might lead to a constitutional crisis, others say it is neither
:12:34. > :12:38.here nor there. What is your view on that? I think if there was a ruling
:12:39. > :12:43.from this court case that the Scottish Parliament should have its
:12:44. > :12:46.say, it gives Nicola Sturgeon a lot more leverage in regards to trying
:12:47. > :12:51.to push the UK Government into a type of Brexit which would be more
:12:52. > :12:59.palatable to her rent to the SNP. And if that doesn't happen, I think
:13:00. > :13:02.it is almost impossible to see how we do not end up in a situation
:13:03. > :13:07.where the Scottish Government is calling for a second independence
:13:08. > :13:12.referendum, if the UK Government says, you are not having a motion.
:13:13. > :13:17.That would cause major, major difficulties, I think. But they
:13:18. > :13:22.could allow one and then say, we hear what you are saying, but that
:13:23. > :13:28.cannot override the referendum vote? You wonder what the point of it is,
:13:29. > :13:29.then. Let us reflect on that and come back to you about this later
:13:30. > :13:32.on. Let's cross to the chamber now
:13:33. > :13:34.where the annual debate on sea fisheries and the end of year
:13:35. > :13:52.negotiations is taking place. As usual there are other stocks
:13:53. > :13:55.where the advice has been different. In the North Sea there are cuts
:13:56. > :14:03.advised for haddock, herring, cod and waiting. For the latter two, the
:14:04. > :14:08.cuts are particularly challenging, given that they are being phased
:14:09. > :14:11.into the landing obligation for 2017, when reductions in quota will
:14:12. > :14:15.increase the risk of choking the mixed fishery. I should underline,
:14:16. > :14:20.the Scottish Government remains committed to the ambition of
:14:21. > :14:24.elimination of discounts, but in implementing the discard ban, we
:14:25. > :14:30.must also tackle the challenge of choked species. We must protect the
:14:31. > :14:33.livelihoods of our fishermen and we must prevent a situation where
:14:34. > :14:36.athlete is unnecessarily tied to the quayside, where there is still quota
:14:37. > :14:46.available to fish. We are playing an active role in the
:14:47. > :14:50.regional groups in which we have an interest to drive forward policy
:14:51. > :14:55.solutions to choke risks. We should not be afraid to be radical where
:14:56. > :14:58.the situation calls for it. I raised this issue with other Fisheries
:14:59. > :15:03.Ministers at the November council in Brussels. Following the effective
:15:04. > :15:08.end of the cod recovery plan and an end to which I shed no tears, I
:15:09. > :15:13.welcome the cod days at sea will be a thing of the past. This should
:15:14. > :15:17.help the fleet adapt to the landing obligation by providing the scope to
:15:18. > :15:26.move to different grounds to control catches of certain stocks.
:15:27. > :15:31.I thank the Cabinet secretary for taking an intervention. One of the
:15:32. > :15:36.ways of catching for the market and catching in terms of the quota
:15:37. > :15:39.that's there and that's unused would be a collaborative approach between
:15:40. > :15:44.our fishermen working in real-time in terms of the data that they have
:15:45. > :15:50.available to them and the quotas that are available and that might be
:15:51. > :15:56.something worth pursuing in terms of reducing discard as well. Well, yes,
:15:57. > :16:01.I do agree with Mr Scott that there are a great many measures in which
:16:02. > :16:08.the choke problem can be ameliorated. Obviously, quota swaps
:16:09. > :16:12.are one method of doing that. Interarea swaps are another method
:16:13. > :16:15.of doing that. Flexibility and measures of flexibility are an
:16:16. > :16:19.additional way of doing that. Measures which control effort or
:16:20. > :16:24.design to limit effort and measures which enable smaller fish to escape,
:16:25. > :16:28.these are all kind of a combination of measures which are required but
:16:29. > :16:31.I'm pleased the member raised it because it has given me the
:16:32. > :16:36.opportunity to agree with Mr Scott and others who raise this as
:16:37. > :16:41.possibly the most serious issue that faces the industry at the moment in
:16:42. > :16:47.relation to the Common Fisheries Policy. So I'm grateful to Mr Scott
:16:48. > :16:54.for doing that and if I can find my place I will revert this point to
:16:55. > :16:59.the script. Yes, so returning to the autumn negotiations, they will have
:17:00. > :17:04.a critical role to play by making available in 2017 additional quota
:17:05. > :17:09.top-ups to cover catches of fish that were previously discarded, but
:17:10. > :17:12.will now have to be landed. Of course, what stands between the
:17:13. > :17:16.scientific advice and the final quota for next year are the
:17:17. > :17:20.negotiations themselves where balances and compromises sometimes
:17:21. > :17:24.need to be found. This year's talks are now well underway and have
:17:25. > :17:31.already delivered some strong results. The coastal State talks for
:17:32. > :17:36.mackerel took place in October and delivered a 14% increase for 2017.
:17:37. > :17:41.At current prices this equates to a value of around ?218 million for
:17:42. > :17:44.Scotland. An increase of ?28 million on 2016.
:17:45. > :17:47.That was the Secretary for Rural Economy, Fergus Ewing,
:17:48. > :17:50.leading the debate on sea fishing quotas.
:17:51. > :17:56.Now, the Education Secretary has told MSPs the latest international
:17:57. > :17:58.rankings of Scotland's schools "do not make comfortable reading",
:17:59. > :18:01.but says his government is carrying out a raft of reforms.
:18:02. > :18:03.In a statement to Holyrood yesterday, Mr Swinney said
:18:04. > :18:06.the latest data reinforced the case for the "radical change"
:18:07. > :18:09.the Scottish Government was now pursuing.
:18:10. > :18:16.The programme for international student assessment run by the OECD
:18:17. > :18:19.every three years assz the skills of 15-year-old in 72 countries in
:18:20. > :18:23.reading, maths and science. The results for the most recent
:18:24. > :18:27.assessments under taken two years ago in March 2015 were published
:18:28. > :18:32.this morning. The figures for Scotland do not make comfortable
:18:33. > :18:36.reading, but they do reinforce the need for the reforms to our school
:18:37. > :18:40.system that now underway. While they show that Scotland's scores are
:18:41. > :18:44.similar to the average in all three areas tested, they also show that
:18:45. > :18:48.compared to 2012, our performance in science and reading has fallen. In
:18:49. > :18:54.science and maths, we are now below the levels at which we performed in
:18:55. > :18:59.2006, and more countries have outperformed Scotland in all three
:19:00. > :19:08.areas than at any time since PISA began. Closing the poverty
:19:09. > :19:17.attainment gap is a complex challenge which is not unique to
:19:18. > :19:21.Scotland. However, there is still a gap between pupils from the least
:19:22. > :19:25.and the most disadvantaged backgrounds around three years worth
:19:26. > :19:30.of schooling according to the OECD. In its review report published this
:19:31. > :19:33.time last year, the OECD said that curriculum for excellence was an
:19:34. > :19:39.important reform that was the right approach for Scotland. The OECD said
:19:40. > :19:44.we'd got the design right, but we needed to take further steps to
:19:45. > :19:47.secure the benefits of that new approach in all parts of the
:19:48. > :19:52.country. The Government's plan for reform were set out in the delivery
:19:53. > :19:57.plan which was published in June following the national education
:19:58. > :20:01.summit. This programme is bold ambitious and in parts
:20:02. > :20:06.controversial. But we now must be clear, reform is required. This data
:20:07. > :20:13.reinforces the case for radical change that the Government is
:20:14. > :20:19.determined to pursue. Not only are we below the OECD average, but the
:20:20. > :20:24.most recent trends since the last set of PISA results in 2012 tell us
:20:25. > :20:29.that Scotland is actually heading backwards in two measurements. Would
:20:30. > :20:33.the Cabinet secretary accept that the statistics published today are a
:20:34. > :20:36.damning indictment of the SNP's education policies in our schools
:20:37. > :20:40.and would he accept they call into question the effective delivery of
:20:41. > :20:44.the curriculum for excellence? And would he tell us why when the
:20:45. > :20:49.promotion of stem subjects is supposed to be a top priority for
:20:50. > :20:54.the SNP, there are weaknesses in Scotland in science in comparison
:20:55. > :20:59.with competitor nations. When we asked the OECD to consider the
:21:00. > :21:03.approach to the implementation of CFE and the condition of Scottish
:21:04. > :21:07.education I put on record the OECD's view and their view was the
:21:08. > :21:11.curriculum for excellence was the correct reform to be under taken.
:21:12. > :21:15.These results are the legacy of ten years of SNP Government. Ten years
:21:16. > :21:20.of cuts to education budgets, cuts to council funding and cuts to
:21:21. > :21:24.teacher numbers. When the budget comes forward next week, it must
:21:25. > :21:30.protect education spending and begin to reinstate the cuts of the past
:21:31. > :21:35.decade. Will the Cabinet secretary promise that reform? My long serving
:21:36. > :21:40.experience as the Finance Minister in this Parliament enables me to
:21:41. > :21:44.know and to understand that when the Labour Party come along here,
:21:45. > :21:48.complaining about a lack of money for particular areas of policy,
:21:49. > :21:52.they're not very good and they weren't very good over the long
:21:53. > :21:58.period in time in which I was the Finance Minister of telling us where
:21:59. > :22:00.the money would come to make good any of the issues raised in the
:22:01. > :22:02.statement today. That was John Swinney responding
:22:03. > :22:05.to Ian Gray and Liz Smith who criticised the Government
:22:06. > :22:06.for the Curriculum for Well, just to remind you,
:22:07. > :22:10.those PISA figures compare education standards here
:22:11. > :22:11.with 70 other countries. Yesterday the survey
:22:12. > :22:16.showed our worst ever performance with standards slipping
:22:17. > :22:17.in science and reading. Let's speak to Keir Bloomer
:22:18. > :22:35.who helped design Scotland's These verbal contortions to try to
:22:36. > :22:40.say that relative decline in standards has got nothing whatsoever
:22:41. > :22:45.to do with curriculum for excellence don't seem convincing, do they? I
:22:46. > :22:51.thinker unconvincing. It is the right reform to be pursuing, but we
:22:52. > :22:58.have been pursuing it ineffectively. Right, but hang on, when you say it
:22:59. > :23:01.is the right reform. The OECD document that John Swinney was
:23:02. > :23:04.quoting from there, accepts that there is no hard evidence that
:23:05. > :23:07.curriculum for excellence has had any beneficial effect? There is no
:23:08. > :23:12.hard evidence one way or the other. This is one of the serious problems
:23:13. > :23:16.that no proper evaluation was set-up at the outset. There are no baseline
:23:17. > :23:22.figures available. So there is no basis upon which comparisons can be
:23:23. > :23:27.made. It is a singular failure. Sorry to interrupt you. This is a
:23:28. > :23:34.persistent problem, this is not just the SNP, but the previous Lib-Lab
:23:35. > :23:40.Government as well. There is a consistency in policy where they
:23:41. > :23:47.trumpet new policies and don't put in any mechanism to judge whether it
:23:48. > :23:52.is a success or failurement there was no mechanisms to evaluate
:23:53. > :23:57.whether the integration of health and social services were working, we
:23:58. > :24:00.have nothing in place to establish if the curriculum for excellence is
:24:01. > :24:04.working or not, is there? Absolutely. I agree with you.
:24:05. > :24:10.Governments of all complexions have done this. And over the ensuing
:24:11. > :24:13.years there have been many reports from the Government itself, from
:24:14. > :24:16.education Scotland and the inspectorate, which have proclaimed
:24:17. > :24:21.the successes of curriculum for excellence and the evidence for that
:24:22. > :24:27.simply is not there. But why is it in Scotland, in England they don't
:24:28. > :24:30.do this. They map out targets and they make public declarations on
:24:31. > :24:38.whether they have met the targets or not. Why are we reluctant to do that
:24:39. > :24:45.in Scotland? I'm not the person to ask. You might have asked the
:24:46. > :24:48.Cabinet secretary to do that. PISA is the most important international
:24:49. > :24:53.survey, but it is not the only one. We used to belong to two others and
:24:54. > :24:57.the current Government withdrew us from them so we have less evidence
:24:58. > :25:02.than we had before. That's a step they should reverse by the way. The
:25:03. > :25:09.national testing regime, which is going to be implemented, it doesn't
:25:10. > :25:12.seem to fit very easy with curriculum for excellence, but at
:25:13. > :25:16.least it should give us some measurable result? It should. There
:25:17. > :25:22.is something important to be said. Apart from our decline in PISA which
:25:23. > :25:26.you are focussing this programme on, we have declined in read lation to
:25:27. > :25:32.the Government's own survey of literacy and numeracy which is
:25:33. > :25:38.conducted each year, alternate years literacy and numeracy. That shows a
:25:39. > :25:41.decline, in PISA we are declining to other countries, what you're
:25:42. > :25:45.mentioning is evidence of an actual decline? Absoluteliment one of the
:25:46. > :25:49.things that worries me about the new regime of national testing is that
:25:50. > :25:54.the survey of literacy and numeracy will be stopped and I think given
:25:55. > :25:59.the situation that we're now in, we urgently need to have a continuous
:26:00. > :26:02.timeline of comparable results so while I'm not opposed to the
:26:03. > :26:08.introduction of the new standardised tests, I think we have to also to
:26:09. > :26:11.retain SSLN for the time being. But would you accept with this new
:26:12. > :26:16.national testing regime, one thing that's important, is that the raw
:26:17. > :26:21.data on these things need to be examined? There has been all sorts
:26:22. > :26:23.of talks that the tests would be supplemented with teacher
:26:24. > :26:27.assessment. If we are going to get to a situation where we have raw
:26:28. > :26:32.data, where we can actually compare different schools and different
:26:33. > :26:35.pupils within schools, we need hard data, not teacher assessments? I'm
:26:36. > :26:40.less interested in comparing schools with other schools. I think that a
:26:41. > :26:44.relatively short standardised assessment under taken infrequently
:26:45. > :26:47.and in relation to small areas of the curriculum, albeit very
:26:48. > :26:51.important ones, will not give us data that is useful at the level of
:26:52. > :26:55.the individual pupil or the individual school. What it will
:26:56. > :26:59.however allow us to do is to monitor the performance of the system as a
:27:00. > :27:04.whole and that is worthwhile. You also want some mechanism, don't you?
:27:05. > :27:10.Not to do down schools, but so there can be a mechanism for spreading
:27:11. > :27:15.best practise? That's got little to do with making the comparison that
:27:16. > :27:20.is you're talking about. We have so far been really rather ineffective
:27:21. > :27:24.at spreading best practise. What is of concern in all that's happened
:27:25. > :27:28.recently in relation to curriculum for excellence has been the
:27:29. > :27:33.ineffectiveness of the guidance provided to schools. It has been
:27:34. > :27:36.burdon Somme, but it has not been successful in terms of spreading
:27:37. > :27:37.good practise. Thank you for joining us this
:27:38. > :27:40.afternoon. Now let's speak to some
:27:41. > :27:42.MSPs at Holyrood. I'm joined by Gillian
:27:43. > :27:47.Martin for the SNP, I'm joined by Gillian Martin
:27:48. > :27:49.for the SNP, the Conservatives' Dean Lochart, Neil Bibby
:27:50. > :27:57.from Labour, and Liam McArthur It does seem extraordinary leaving
:27:58. > :28:02.to one side whether this is the fault of curriculum for excellence,
:28:03. > :28:06.the fact there is, according to Keir Bloomer there is no system in place
:28:07. > :28:10.to test whether it is having any effect, good or bad or not seems
:28:11. > :28:20.extraordinary? Well, the thing is you can't one thing and then the
:28:21. > :28:25.other. If you introduce testing, that's introducing workload. We're
:28:26. > :28:30.trying to leave teachers free to teach. When you add lower layer of
:28:31. > :28:33.testing just to satisfy some report that is get traipsed out in the
:28:34. > :28:37.media, what that does to teachers on the ground is give them more admin
:28:38. > :28:42.to do and less time to focus on teaching and learning. There is some
:28:43. > :28:45.misunderstanding here. It is the SNP Government that introduces a new
:28:46. > :28:51.level of testing. You're saying something it is to do with the
:28:52. > :28:56.media, it is your own party? You're requesting that we have more data in
:28:57. > :28:58.order to write the reports. We are engaging with schools and education
:28:59. > :29:02.authorities across Scotland to find out what's happening on the ground,
:29:03. > :29:06.to find out what parents want and what pupils want and what teachers
:29:07. > :29:11.want most importantly and they all say to us that they want more time
:29:12. > :29:15.to teach and spend less time on bureaucracy. I'm sure they do. Are
:29:16. > :29:21.you saying it is not important to have anything in place so you can
:29:22. > :29:25.test whether curriculum for excellence is important or not? We
:29:26. > :29:30.have lots of indicators as to whether curriculum for excellence is
:29:31. > :29:33.working. We were told there is none. There is increased levels of pupils
:29:34. > :29:36.going to university, increased levels of people going to college,
:29:37. > :29:42.better higher results than we have seen in the last few years and good
:29:43. > :29:46.results in maths fours and maths fives. Surely that's an indication
:29:47. > :29:50.of whether our schools are working. Teachers want less bur October crass
:29:51. > :29:56.crisis and more time to focus on the day job of teaching and learning. If
:29:57. > :29:59.you look at the OECD results and that's about the teacher pupil
:30:00. > :30:03.relationships in Scotland. They are better than a lot of places across
:30:04. > :30:06.the world. For me as a parent and the wife of a teacher, it is more
:30:07. > :30:13.important than collecting a whole lot of data.
:30:14. > :30:19.Would you accept that point, that in fact there is a battery of measures
:30:20. > :30:26.in place by which we can measure this? No, I don't think that's
:30:27. > :30:31.right. I think people have lost confidence in the exams. These
:30:32. > :30:35.reports show that in the last decade, Scotland's education system
:30:36. > :30:40.has slipped quite badly in many areas compared with other areas in
:30:41. > :30:43.the UK and in Europe. I would agree that less bureaucracy has to be
:30:44. > :30:48.imposed on teachers, but that is the case of the government streamlining
:30:49. > :30:51.guidance and giving more support to teachers and about devolving powers
:30:52. > :31:00.to headteachers sober that they can make the right decisions for their
:31:01. > :31:14.schools. If that's being done, those results are not coming through. You
:31:15. > :31:17.are hardly innocent in this, you, because Curriculum for Excellence
:31:18. > :31:23.was your idea in the first place? I think these results are very
:31:24. > :31:27.concerning. But key concern at the moment is that we've got 4000 fewer
:31:28. > :31:32.teachers in our schools since the SNP came to power in 2007. The
:31:33. > :31:42.problem is, teachers are having to do ever more work, because cash and
:31:43. > :31:46.fewer of them in the classrooms. The key question for next week will be,
:31:47. > :31:52.what will they do with the education budget going forward? You take no
:31:53. > :31:57.responsibility for this, even though Curriculum for Excellence was a
:31:58. > :32:02.Labour project? I think those concerns about the mentation of
:32:03. > :32:05.Curriculum for Excellence, I still think Curriculum for Excellence
:32:06. > :32:10.itself is a good idea. But we have 4000 fewer teachers. So that
:32:11. > :32:14.explains everything, all right. This is your fault as well, you will also
:32:15. > :32:18.involved in implementing Curriculum for Excellence. And I come back to
:32:19. > :32:23.the point, we had this report about the Health Service, saying there was
:32:24. > :32:31.no mechanism in place to judge whether these new policies were
:32:32. > :32:31.working or not. With the benefit of hindsight, do you accept that when
:32:32. > :32:33.Curriculum for Excellence was started, there should have been more
:32:34. > :32:38.measures put in place so that the public could know whether it was
:32:39. > :32:42.working? I would echo the comments made by Neil around supporting
:32:43. > :32:45.Curriculum for Excellence. I still believe it is the right approach.
:32:46. > :32:50.And I think what the education committee heard during the course of
:32:51. > :33:00.the last session... You keep saying... There is nothing... You
:33:01. > :33:04.don't want to have any basis on which you can make that statement?
:33:05. > :33:08.If you would let me finish, I was going to say that the evidence heard
:33:09. > :33:13.by the education committee when the Scottish Government was rolling out
:33:14. > :33:16.its plans for national standardised testing, which will add to the Brio
:33:17. > :33:21.Chrissy for teachers, the evidence we heard was, there is no lack of
:33:22. > :33:27.data out there. Standardised testing is taking place across the piece.
:33:28. > :33:31.It's the lack of a sensible use of the data which exists which has led
:33:32. > :33:36.us to this position. So that we have national standardised testing rolled
:33:37. > :33:42.out, with 23,000 pages of guidance from ministers to teachers. But it
:33:43. > :33:45.does not seem to be making any difference in terms of them being
:33:46. > :33:48.able to deliver the Curriculum for Excellence as it was envisaged.
:33:49. > :33:59.You're not in favour of any additional measures, so we know
:34:00. > :34:04.whether Curriculum for Excellence is working as I say, the education
:34:05. > :34:10.committee in its evidence heard that there is ample data already. I think
:34:11. > :34:15.Fife Council was one of those who suggested to the committee that they
:34:16. > :34:19.have the data on how any pupil within their area is performing at
:34:20. > :34:23.any point in time. It's the way in which that data is used which I
:34:24. > :34:33.think is the problem. Their rather than a series of new tests, why not
:34:34. > :34:41.use the data that we have more effectively to drive up standards?
:34:42. > :34:47.What is your reply to that - the argument is that there is plenty of
:34:48. > :34:56.data, there's need for these new tests, they're just setting up
:34:57. > :34:58.school league tables have I think they are treating assessment as
:34:59. > :35:05.being just league tables, and that's not the case. Liam McArthur is wrong
:35:06. > :35:10.because it is not going to lead to league tables, it is going to allow
:35:11. > :35:13.teachers to make judgments on the attainment of pupils in their class
:35:14. > :35:17.in a way which they know best. Effectively, we are looking at the
:35:18. > :35:22.data which came from the OECD and putting in measures to make sure
:35:23. > :35:27.that we take up the recommendations of what this data actually showed us
:35:28. > :35:34.in 2015. Can I come on to a point about the amount of material - the
:35:35. > :35:37.material which the education committee was very critical of was
:35:38. > :35:41.actually coming from education Scotland, and they're taking on
:35:42. > :35:46.board that they were issuing far too much guidance. That is not coming
:35:47. > :35:52.from ministers, it is coming from Education Scotland, and they have
:35:53. > :35:57.made a commitment to address that. Labour is in favour of these new
:35:58. > :36:03.national tests, isn't it? We do not want to see a return to league
:36:04. > :36:07.tables or teaching to the test. But is there -- if there is a case for
:36:08. > :36:12.gathering more data, we will look at that sorry, is that a yes, Ore no?
:36:13. > :36:19.It is about providing schools with the resources. We have seen a cut in
:36:20. > :36:23.4000 teachers over the past ten years. The key thing about driving
:36:24. > :36:27.attainment is actually putting the resources into schools, which have
:36:28. > :36:33.been cut back over the past ten years. That will be a key test for
:36:34. > :36:37.the SNP government budget next week. One of the conclusions of the report
:36:38. > :36:39.this year was that in advanced countries, flinging more money at
:36:40. > :36:43.schools does not make the slightest bit of difference, yet you're
:36:44. > :36:47.obviously intending to fling more money at it? Well, the last Labour
:36:48. > :36:55.government made a significant investment in schools in Scotland.
:36:56. > :36:57.The point I made was that the OECD concludes that in advanced
:36:58. > :37:02.countries, flinging more money at schools is not the important thing
:37:03. > :37:06.you need to do? When I'm speaking to teachers, teachers are concerned
:37:07. > :37:11.about the amount of resources. I'm sure teachers was like more money.
:37:12. > :37:16.From speaking to teachers, they've got less time to spend with
:37:17. > :37:20.individual pupils, class sizes are bigger, and that is affecting their
:37:21. > :37:26.ability to give children the best possible education. We are running
:37:27. > :37:31.out of time. I presume you are going to give Gillian her unequivocal
:37:32. > :37:40.support for these new national tests? I think it is about making
:37:41. > :37:44.the that that set the tests more accountable to parents and to
:37:45. > :37:48.teachers. We have seen recently questions about it not being fit for
:37:49. > :37:50.purpose cleaner so more work needs to be done not just around the
:37:51. > :37:53.number of teachers and around guidance for the national
:37:54. > :38:01.curriculum, but it's about setting that tests for children to act as a
:38:02. > :38:11.benchmark. I think we will leave it but Archie thank you all very much
:38:12. > :38:17.indeed. David, sorry to come this, but in health as well as in
:38:18. > :38:22.education, almost everything in Scotland - everyone talks about an
:38:23. > :38:25.evidence -based policy, but they never put anything in place so that
:38:26. > :38:30.we can ever know whether it has worked or not? I think the point
:38:31. > :38:34.they made about the international testing regimes which the Scottish
:38:35. > :38:38.Government pulled out of gives the game away. They didn't like the
:38:39. > :38:42.results so they do not play the game and more. That gives them a big
:38:43. > :38:49.problem. I am not sure where to start with some of that conversation
:38:50. > :38:51.there. This report is absolutely scandalous, a terrible set of
:38:52. > :38:56.results. We are looking at a generation of children who will be
:38:57. > :39:01.able to read and write in a way which is not as good as their
:39:02. > :39:07.parents. Standards are declining. I'm not sure it is quite as new a
:39:08. > :39:12.thing as... Even back in the 1990s, when you could argue there was a
:39:13. > :39:15.tremendous complacency amongst the establishment of here, when they
:39:16. > :39:20.used to say Scotland have the best education system in the world. It
:39:21. > :39:26.just is not true any more. Even within the UK, it looks like
:39:27. > :39:31.England, from a very low base, has caught up and overtaken? I heard one
:39:32. > :39:35.of the education bosses in England was blaming Scotland for bringing
:39:36. > :39:39.the UK average down in this table! But I think part of the problem is
:39:40. > :39:45.that this has been going on for a long time. It's not just the current
:39:46. > :39:48.SNP administration. Obviously, they have to take the lion's share of
:39:49. > :39:53.responsibilities. But the Liberal Democrats also, it was going down
:39:54. > :40:01.during their time in office as well. Not quite so dramatically. Not quite
:40:02. > :40:06.so dramatically, but... I do think that resources are important here.
:40:07. > :40:09.The number of teachers has gone down, as they were pointing out, but
:40:10. > :40:17.it is also classroom assistants, all the other supporters well. The
:40:18. > :40:21.argument that more enterprising and innovative ways of dealing with a
:40:22. > :40:26.lack of teachers could be used, doing some of the things which have
:40:27. > :40:30.been done in England... Certainly there has not been an adequate
:40:31. > :40:34.policy response. The basic problem seems to be that less teachers will
:40:35. > :40:37.lead to problems in the education system unless you take radical
:40:38. > :40:44.action, which they have not done. The problem now is that this is
:40:45. > :40:52.tried in an oil tanker, isn't it? So even if John Swinney's policies are
:40:53. > :40:55.all wonderful, it could be well into the next decade before we see much
:40:56. > :41:00.of a result? I think there is an argument to be made that it is ten
:41:01. > :41:05.years at the minimum before you start to yield results for changes
:41:06. > :41:12.you put in place. It has to be from the beginning of a child's school
:41:13. > :41:18.career. And then it progresses through the whole school system. I'm
:41:19. > :41:22.sure you will tell me I'm whistling in the wind, but isn't this
:41:23. > :41:25.precisely the sort of issue where the Scottish Parliament was supposed
:41:26. > :41:31.to be different? To the parties were supposed to get together and say,
:41:32. > :41:40.this is not a big ideological divide? They could all sit down and
:41:41. > :41:44.have a big commission and come up with a cross Parliament Street
:41:45. > :41:48.consensus? It might not work, but at least it had been done? Of the
:41:49. > :41:53.exchange from Hollywood there is anything to go by, it doesn't look
:41:54. > :41:59.like that is going to happen. I have to say, one thing this report has is
:42:00. > :42:03.a damning indictment, because since the creation of the Scottish
:42:04. > :42:06.Parliament, since education was devolved, things have got worse year
:42:07. > :42:19.on year. On that cheerful thought, we can go back to London.
:42:20. > :42:25.It is not me you should be concentrating on, it is the Labour
:42:26. > :42:28.Scottish leader Kezia Dugdale, who has been down in London today
:42:29. > :42:35.putting forward the idea of a new act of union - why do we need a new
:42:36. > :42:39.act of union? We need an act of union to save the union. When I look
:42:40. > :42:43.at the state of politics across the UK today, I see a country divided
:42:44. > :42:47.between Tory nationalism and SNP nationalism. I want to do what I
:42:48. > :42:52.think many people want to see, which is to bring those divides together.
:42:53. > :42:55.People in Scotland who voted both yes, and know and say, we can have a
:42:56. > :42:58.new phase of devolution which brings more powers to the Scottish
:42:59. > :43:02.Parliament, so, a can make decisions to determine local circumstances,
:43:03. > :43:08.but keep that safety net of the United Kingdom, which I was so proud
:43:09. > :43:10.to fight for. Brexit forces us to be honest, and I think there is an
:43:11. > :43:16.opportunity there which we must rasp. Does that mean that any new
:43:17. > :43:20.act union would presage a federal United Kingdom? I want to see a
:43:21. > :43:24.federal solution for the whole of the United Kingdom. That is why I
:43:25. > :43:26.want to see a people's Constitutional convention to bring
:43:27. > :43:30.together for an aspects of Scottish and UK civic life, to talk about
:43:31. > :43:35.where power should best sit. It is not just talking about parliaments,
:43:36. > :43:38.power from the palace behind me and Hollywood, it is about communities,
:43:39. > :43:42.it is about electoral reform, abolition of the House of Lords, a
:43:43. > :43:46.lot of these issues are long overdue. It is absolutely essential
:43:47. > :43:49.in my view, about part of that process of healing the divides in
:43:50. > :43:52.our country and bringing the country back together. Only the Labour Party
:43:53. > :43:57.can do that. Is the danger that if you have a UK-wide Constitutional
:43:58. > :44:01.Convention, it will become a UK-wide talking shop, with a very little
:44:02. > :44:04.action? What I have said is that it should not just consider these
:44:05. > :44:09.issues, it should actually produce the act of union which I am calling
:44:10. > :44:13.for, so that we would have an end product which is a result of this
:44:14. > :44:17.wide consultation. All of the reasons people have lost faith in
:44:18. > :44:20.politics, what makes it unique is, it is about healing the divisions in
:44:21. > :44:24.our country. This is not a healthy way to do our politics. We are
:44:25. > :44:28.forced into corners of black and white, when so much of what we need
:44:29. > :44:31.to do is in that grey area of consensus and compromise. I am
:44:32. > :44:36.putting forward a positive, exciting proposal which I think can heal our
:44:37. > :44:40.country and and plead pleased to see the reception it is getting today.
:44:41. > :44:44.Would it to some extent be devo max, not just for Scotland but for the
:44:45. > :44:46.whole of the United Kingdom, with a town the size of Manchester, for
:44:47. > :44:50.instance, having the same powers as a city the size of Glasgow, at the
:44:51. > :44:55.great cities of the United Kingdom had more power and could actually
:44:56. > :44:59.take decisions involving health, education, at a citywide level?
:45:00. > :45:08.Raez It is not good for me to dictate toning gland. I think there
:45:09. > :45:12.is a conversation to be had across England about where power best sits.
:45:13. > :45:15.It could be a number of things, Assemblies, parliaments, more
:45:16. > :45:18.mayors, more regional solutions to these problems, but that's a
:45:19. > :45:21.conversation for England to have and that's why a UK-wide federal
:45:22. > :45:25.solution is so important. One question, you're down here today
:45:26. > :45:29.while MPs are discussing the timetable for Brexit. How important
:45:30. > :45:35.is it that the UK Government comes up with a detailed plan and
:45:36. > :45:39.secondly, that your party, the Labour Party, agrees that Article 50
:45:40. > :45:42.should be triggered by the end of March next year? Well, we wouldn't
:45:43. > :45:47.behaving the debate in the House of Commons if it wasn't for the work of
:45:48. > :45:51.Keir Starmer who forced the Tory Government to put some sort of plan
:45:52. > :45:54.about what breaks the really means ahead of Article 50 being triggered.
:45:55. > :45:57.We have a Prime Minister in this country with thousands of civil
:45:58. > :46:03.servants at her disposal and she can't tell us whether she is
:46:04. > :46:05.advocating hard Brexit or right-wing Brexit or if there is a softer
:46:06. > :46:13.version which is the Labour Party would like to see, which is single
:46:14. > :46:17.market, tariff-free access. I want what most Scottish people want, to
:46:18. > :46:20.remain part of the United Kingdom and as close a relationship with
:46:21. > :46:23.Europe as possible. Kezia Dugdale, thank you very much. Thank you for
:46:24. > :46:25.taking the time to join us this afternoon. Gordon, for the time
:46:26. > :46:29.being, back to you. Now to this week's Prime
:46:30. > :46:31.Ministers Questions, which was without the Prime Minister
:46:32. > :46:34.and the Leader of the Opposition, Instead, the Leader of the House
:46:35. > :46:37.of Commons, David Lidington, stood in for Mrs May,
:46:38. > :46:40.while the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Emily Thornberry,
:46:41. > :46:41.replaced Jeremy Corbyn. Ms Thornberry chose to press
:46:42. > :46:45.the Government on whether it wanted to remain in the Customs Union
:46:46. > :46:54.after leaving the EU. We welcome the Government's decision
:46:55. > :46:57.to accept our motion today that they will show Parliament their plan for
:46:58. > :47:02.Brexit before Article 50 is triggered. So can I ask the Leader
:47:03. > :47:07.of the House one central question about this plan? Does the Government
:47:08. > :47:11.want the UK to remain part of the customs union? The Government has
:47:12. > :47:16.always made it clear that we would seek to give initial clarity about
:47:17. > :47:19.our position at the earliest opportunity, but it has been the
:47:20. > :47:23.case as my Right Honourable friend the Prime Minister has said many
:47:24. > :47:26.times that one of our core objectives is going to be to secure
:47:27. > :47:31.the maximum freedom for British companies both to have access to and
:47:32. > :47:37.operate within the single European market. Some of the most deprived
:47:38. > :47:41.communities in the country are in Glasgow and today we learn
:47:42. > :47:48.apparently that the Government plans to close Jobcentres in those very
:47:49. > :47:55.communities. In Parkhead, in Easter House, and Castle Milk and Anna's
:47:56. > :47:59.Land and Merry Hill. Is it true the Government is planning to close
:48:00. > :48:04.these important offices and add misery to the tens of thousands of
:48:05. > :48:09.people in Glasgow who currently use these centres? Well, clearly, the
:48:10. > :48:12.Department for Work and Pensions like every Government department
:48:13. > :48:17.does look from time to time at its estates, at the number of offices
:48:18. > :48:21.that it has, but the Right Honourable gentleman makes a
:48:22. > :48:26.reasonable point on behalf of people in Glasgow. I will ask my Right
:48:27. > :48:32.Honourable friend the Work and Pensions Secretary to contact him
:48:33. > :48:42.with the details that he's seeking. I'm sorry Mr Speaker, that's not
:48:43. > :48:46.good enough. The department... I'm being heckled. Being heckled when
:48:47. > :48:53.dealing with communities that are still deprived does not behold Tory
:48:54. > :48:58.members well in Scotland. The Leader of the House is correct to say, the
:48:59. > :49:06.Leader of the House is correct to say that the Department of Work and
:49:07. > :49:15.Pensions has plans to cut the estate by 20%. What the DWP is planning to
:49:16. > :49:20.do to Glasgow is to cut it by 50%. Why is this Government planning to
:49:21. > :49:24.disproportionately cut vital Jobcentres in some of the most
:49:25. > :49:30.deprived communities in our country? Why?
:49:31. > :49:35.The key element in any such decision that a Government department has to
:49:36. > :49:39.make is not the raw number of offices that there should be, but
:49:40. > :49:43.about how accessible the offices and the services which they provide
:49:44. > :49:50.continue to be to the people who need to use them and I am confident
:49:51. > :49:54.that it is that criteria that is at the heart of my Right Honourable
:49:55. > :49:58.friend's thinking in planning for the future of offices in Scotland
:49:59. > :50:03.and everywhere else in the United Kingdom. Does the Leader of the
:50:04. > :50:07.House agree that tonight's vote on the Prime Minister's amendment,
:50:08. > :50:10.which we fully support, is a vote of the highest significance and great
:50:11. > :50:14.importance because for the first time honourable and Right Honourable
:50:15. > :50:18.members of this House will have the opportunity to vote on whether they
:50:19. > :50:22.respect the will of the people of the United Kingdom and whether they
:50:23. > :50:26.will get on and implementing it, but people will be able to read in
:50:27. > :50:30.Hansard tomorrow who stands by respecting the will of the people of
:50:31. > :50:36.the United Kingdom and would he also agree that the more... I'm sure that
:50:37. > :50:45.he will, the more red, white and blue he makes it the better for us
:50:46. > :50:50.on the Unionist benches. The Right Honourable gentleman, as
:50:51. > :50:55.so often, makes a very powerful and important point. The vote tonight
:50:56. > :51:01.will be the first opportunity for members of this House to decide
:51:02. > :51:06.whether or not they support the Government's timetable of triggering
:51:07. > :51:11.Arle 50 by the end of March 2017. And any Right Honourable member who
:51:12. > :51:15.votes against that motion will in my view be seeking to thwart the
:51:16. > :51:20.outcome of the referendum in the most profoundly undemocratic
:51:21. > :51:24.fashion. Let's go back to David Porter. This
:51:25. > :51:28.time he has a bunch of MPs, haven't you, David? Yes, I have. A busy day
:51:29. > :51:36.at Westminster. So let's get straight to it. Joining me is
:51:37. > :51:39.Stephen getens and Alberta Costa and Alistair Carmichael. The debate is
:51:40. > :51:42.going on, gentlemen thank you very much for coming out and joining me.
:51:43. > :51:46.Alistair Carmichael will the Liberal Democrats be supporting the Labour
:51:47. > :51:51.Party and the Conservatives in this? No, we will not. It seems to me that
:51:52. > :51:57.the Labour Party think that it is the obof the official to give a get
:51:58. > :52:02.out of jail card to Theresa May yet again. We will only support the
:52:03. > :52:05.motion if it allowed a referendum on the deal when we know what that deal
:52:06. > :52:10.is going to be. Without that, there is no way we're supporting it. It is
:52:11. > :52:14.your argument, we have a plan, but we don't have any details? That's
:52:15. > :52:19.the other main objection to this. It is not just that there is a lack of
:52:20. > :52:23.clarity about the end point for the process, it is the fact that we have
:52:24. > :52:29.not been told what the plan is. We're not being told what the
:52:30. > :52:33.Government will achieve. It is fair enough to say they don't want to
:52:34. > :52:36.give a running commentary, but I think Parliament really deserves to
:52:37. > :52:42.be told where it is the Government wants to take us. That's a good
:52:43. > :52:45.point, isn't it? You are elected representatives, we know there is
:52:46. > :52:49.going to be Brexit. Why can the UK Government not come forward and give
:52:50. > :52:56.as many details as possible about what is going on? Well, I think the
:52:57. > :53:00.Government has said it is going to the outer plan prior to engaging
:53:01. > :53:03.Article 50, that's what the amendment is about and I'm
:53:04. > :53:09.supporting the Government's amendment on this. We cannot have a
:53:10. > :53:13.running commentary on the specifics of the negotiation, but I agree with
:53:14. > :53:16.the colleagues in the House of Commons across the parties that we
:53:17. > :53:22.need to have a plan and that's what the Government is agreeing to do
:53:23. > :53:27.today with the amendment. OK. So we get a plan, but if we get very few
:53:28. > :53:32.details on that plan, it's a cunning plan that we don't know what it is
:53:33. > :53:37.going to be? Well, let's just see what the details are David and maybe
:53:38. > :53:40.we can discuss it once we get the plan, but I'm certainly voting for
:53:41. > :53:46.Government amendment which is to have a plan, prior to engaging
:53:47. > :53:51.Article 50. I think that's the right and sensible, there is a helicopter
:53:52. > :53:56.buzzing ahead, but that's the right and mindful. Anyone would think it
:53:57. > :54:00.is the Government whips, but I trust that's not the case. Stephen, you
:54:01. > :54:05.will be voting against it as well. Is it because you say it doesn't go
:54:06. > :54:09.anywhere near far enough? Alistair made a good point, Labour are
:54:10. > :54:14.letting the Government off the hook and Alberto made our point for us,
:54:15. > :54:17.we don't have any details. We're almost six months on from the
:54:18. > :54:21.referendum, it is pretty irresponsible not to give us any
:54:22. > :54:24.details with the single market, EU nationals, all the certainty that
:54:25. > :54:26.businesses need and that others need when you have this momentous
:54:27. > :54:29.decision. Furthermore, it doesn't say anything about the role of the
:54:30. > :54:33.devolved administrations and there should be a role because this will
:54:34. > :54:36.have an impact on their responsibilities. You can understand
:54:37. > :54:39.the argument well, if we go into negotiation we're not going to tell
:54:40. > :54:44.those we're negotiating with what our bottom lines are? Well, they're
:54:45. > :54:47.not telling anybody anything, I'm not sure how you can have a
:54:48. > :54:50.negotiation when you don't have a negotiating position. They've told
:54:51. > :54:54.us nothing and at this point I would have thought a bit of Parliamentary
:54:55. > :54:58.scrutiny might be helpful because it might tease out some of the really
:54:59. > :55:02.important points, but let's remember have an impact on every single one
:55:03. > :55:06.of us. The Supreme Court meeting just a few hundred yards away from
:55:07. > :55:11.us may say that it is Parliament that has to take the decision, not
:55:12. > :55:16.the Government, so the judges may do what you want the Government to do?
:55:17. > :55:20.Having read the judgement at the High Court, it was a well argued
:55:21. > :55:24.case and I would hope that it would be sustained by the Supreme Court
:55:25. > :55:32.because I think for the Government to try and rule a decree at a time
:55:33. > :55:36.like this, it is frankly outrageous. Alberto's point about a plan is an
:55:37. > :55:40.interesting one. If we were standing here on 25th June saying we want a
:55:41. > :55:43.plan. Yes, it would to the be reasonable two days after the
:55:44. > :55:46.referendum to be demanding a plan, but we're not two days after the
:55:47. > :55:53.referendum, it is five months, it will be six months plus before we
:55:54. > :55:56.see an outline of a plan. I think we're entitled to something. Would
:55:57. > :55:59.it not be sensible for the UK Government to say whatever happens
:56:00. > :56:02.at the Supreme Court, we will have legislation, Parliament can decide,
:56:03. > :56:07.and then we can get on with Article 50? I don't disagree with much of
:56:08. > :56:11.what Alistair said. Look, we were both on the same side of the EU
:56:12. > :56:14.referendum. The Government has made an amendment tonight, it will
:56:15. > :56:18.produce a plan. Let's wait and see what the plan says and we can chat
:56:19. > :56:22.again, David, but I'm supporting the Government's amendment that it will
:56:23. > :56:26.bring forth a plan, prior to engaging Article 50. Stephen, a
:56:27. > :56:30.final word, how important is it when the plan comes forward that
:56:31. > :56:36.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are fully encompassed in that? This
:56:37. > :56:39.has an important impact on areas of responsibility of the Scottish
:56:40. > :56:42.Parliament, food and drink sector, energy, climate change, it is
:56:43. > :56:50.important they must have a say. This is a big, big decision. They have to
:56:51. > :56:53.have their say. Thank you very much. Gordon, Alberto said he thinks we
:56:54. > :56:57.might be discussing that again. That's the one prediction that I
:56:58. > :57:03.think all of us can agree with. We will be discussing this at great
:57:04. > :57:08.length! The Liberal Democrats look very
:57:09. > :57:12.chipper again. The Richmond by-election put wind in their sails
:57:13. > :57:18.and it looks like they could get a bounce in England.
:57:19. > :57:22.Let's say you took half of the 48, and said they want another
:57:23. > :57:25.referendum, that gives you 24% which for Liberal Democrats means you've
:57:26. > :57:30.died and gone to heaven, but if you're Labour or the Conservatives
:57:31. > :57:34.remainers, actually, you've got to worry about the people who voted no
:57:35. > :57:38.and not alienate them by appearing to ignore the result that the
:57:39. > :57:42.referendum? You're defending seats that had both majorities for both
:57:43. > :57:46.sides. So I think, the Lib Dems could benefit. There is a Scottish
:57:47. > :57:49.dimension to that as well. There is a million people who voted leave in
:57:50. > :57:53.Scotland. I'm not sure what political party in Scotland is
:57:54. > :58:00.talking to them at the minute. Ukip isn't really doing it up here, is
:58:01. > :58:04.it? No. Obviously, I think, Ukip and David Coburn their Scottish leader
:58:05. > :58:08.who is an MEP is not a particularly impressive politician to put it
:58:09. > :58:12.diplomatically. I think if they had someone with a bit more talent
:58:13. > :58:14.leading them in Scotland, you could see Ukip making strides at the
:58:15. > :58:18.moment. Or perhaps the Conservatives. It is a difficult
:58:19. > :58:22.one. Everybody knows Ruth Davidson was in favour of the European Union,
:58:23. > :58:25.but maybe she could try and position the Conservatives, would that work?
:58:26. > :58:32.The SNP are trying to put her there as it is. So it may, I wonder if
:58:33. > :58:34.some people who voted leave, but had voted Tory in the past could be
:58:35. > :58:38.leaning towards the Conservatives now. It is a possibility. Labour
:58:39. > :58:44.don't seem to be going there, do they? Certainly not. Kezia Dugdale
:58:45. > :58:47.has been so clear about remain and they are taking a distinct remain
:58:48. > :58:48.position than the UK Labour leadership. David, thank you very
:58:49. > :58:51.much. Join us for First Minister's
:58:52. > :58:53.Questions tomorrow on BBC Does it hurt you to touch
:58:54. > :59:04.the control? Yeah. To be able to sign my name
:59:05. > :59:07.would be an incredible thing. Graham needs a better way
:59:08. > :59:10.to communicate. What if the best brains in Britain
:59:11. > :59:13.could help to fix your life? You know you're doing it
:59:14. > :59:17.for the right reasons, Gah! Did it just work?
:59:18. > :59:22.It's life-changing.