:00:14. > :00:14.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:15. > :00:19.MPs vote later on the Article 50 bill - a day after Holyrood rejected
:00:20. > :00:23.triggering the process to leave the EU.
:00:24. > :00:29.And the proposed Jobcentre closures in Scotland go under the spotlight.
:00:30. > :00:30.And, here at Westminster, after the debate,
:00:31. > :00:33.MPs will have their final vote on UK Government legislation
:00:34. > :00:42.MPs will vote again later on the bill that could see
:00:43. > :00:45.the formal start of the UK's exit from the EU.
:00:46. > :00:47.They'll consider a number of changes, including protecting
:00:48. > :00:49.the rights of EU citizens living in Britain.
:00:50. > :00:52.The bill will then pass to the House of Lords.
:00:53. > :00:54.It follows a vote at Holyrood yesterday where MSPs voted
:00:55. > :00:58.overwhelmingly to reject the triggering of Article 50.
:00:59. > :01:01.Today, Scotland's Brexit minister, Mike Russell, has held talks
:01:02. > :01:04.with his UK counterpart, David Davis.
:01:05. > :01:07.Let's talk now to our Westminster Correspondent, David Porter,
:01:08. > :01:18.and our Political Editor, Brian Taylor.
:01:19. > :01:24.David, first, just bring us up-to-date on the contortions of
:01:25. > :01:29.this. The bill being voted through today, are there any concessions by
:01:30. > :01:35.the government in it? It depends who you talk to. Yesterday, the Brexit
:01:36. > :01:39.minister, David Jones, got up in the House of Commons and said that MPs
:01:40. > :01:43.would be given a vote on the deal that had been agreed, when it is
:01:44. > :01:47.agreed, that the House of Commons and the Lords would get to vote on
:01:48. > :01:52.it before it goes to the European Parliament for them to say yes or
:01:53. > :01:55.no. Some people saw that as a concession, and then they thought a
:01:56. > :02:00.little harder about it and they thought, well, that was what Theresa
:02:01. > :02:05.May was saying anyway. Because what became evident was that MPs will get
:02:06. > :02:09.a vote on the final deal that is done, but if they reject that vote,
:02:10. > :02:16.then the UK will leave the European Union without any deal and will fall
:02:17. > :02:18.back on what is known as the World Trade Organisation rules, which
:02:19. > :02:24.basically would be worse probably than any deal that had been struck.
:02:25. > :02:28.In effect, what Theresa May is doing, rather than conceding, is
:02:29. > :02:33.metaphorically putting a gun to some MPs' heads and saying, of course you
:02:34. > :02:37.can have a vote on the deal but, if you reject it, we are still leaving
:02:38. > :02:42.the EU and they will not be any deal on the table, we will have to be out
:02:43. > :02:48.in the cold, so to speak, with the heart, cliff edge Brexit. -- hard.
:02:49. > :02:52.So I don't think you can regard that as a concession. To make it clear,
:02:53. > :02:57.some MPs wanted a vote that meant that, should they vote against the
:02:58. > :03:00.final deal, that meant the British government had to go back to
:03:01. > :03:06.Brussels and say, they don't like that, we'll have to negotiate
:03:07. > :03:10.something else. That is what is not going to happen? Yes, also the UK
:03:11. > :03:16.Government says at the moment. They explicitly say, if MPs reject the
:03:17. > :03:21.deal, that deal will not go ahead, but there will be no deal. She will
:03:22. > :03:24.not be going back for a second set of negotiations saying, look,
:03:25. > :03:28.frankly, the guys and girls don't agree with that, can we have another
:03:29. > :03:33.go? She says that will not be the case. A number of amendments and
:03:34. > :03:37.changes have been put forward in the House of Commons in the three days
:03:38. > :03:41.they have been debating this bill in committee, going through the
:03:42. > :03:46.nitty-gritty. So far, none of the changes or amendments have been
:03:47. > :03:49.backed. I think Theresa May and her ministers are fairly confident they
:03:50. > :03:54.will get it through tonight with a large majority and, so far, they do
:03:55. > :04:00.not think they have to compromise too much on this. Much talk again
:04:01. > :04:05.today, Brian, about the independence referendum 2, as it's called. The
:04:06. > :04:08.revelation that the British government might be thinking there
:04:09. > :04:14.might be won is hardly a revelation, is it? No, they have been thoughts
:04:15. > :04:19.that the government is preparing for the possibility of a second
:04:20. > :04:23.independence referendum. Well, of course they are, it is what
:04:24. > :04:29.governments do, preparing for every potential process that might impact
:04:30. > :04:34.upon them. So of course the UK Government are preparing. Are they
:04:35. > :04:39.preparing for the eventuality of independence? No, they are not. Just
:04:40. > :04:42.as it is fairly evident they didn't prepare for the eventuality of
:04:43. > :04:46.Britain leaving the EU. But they are preparing for the process. In
:04:47. > :04:51.Scotland, things have been choreographed. There is choreography
:04:52. > :04:54.going to match the developments at Westminster. The Scottish cup would
:04:55. > :05:00.have put forward what they regard as compromise proposals on Scottish
:05:01. > :05:05.membership of the EU single market by the EEA. You have a succession of
:05:06. > :05:11.votes at Holyrood, including the one last night, in which, by 3-1, MSPs
:05:12. > :05:18.said, don't go ahead with the trigger of Article 50. It is a
:05:19. > :05:22.series of challenges. Brian, I'm interested on your take on this.
:05:23. > :05:27.There is clearly a debate going on in the SNP or the broader Yes
:05:28. > :05:30.campaign about what they say if they have another referendum. Some people
:05:31. > :05:37.would say, what they should say is not Scotland in Europe but an
:05:38. > :05:41.independent Scotland which would join Efta but not be in the customs
:05:42. > :05:44.union, so there wouldn't have to be a border with England. Alex Salmond
:05:45. > :05:50.seems to be saying that isn't it. What is your take? Bearing in mind
:05:51. > :05:54.what is happening, Britain withdrawing from the European Union
:05:55. > :05:56.and, according to the Prime Minister, the single market, the
:05:57. > :06:02.proposal from the Scottish Government is that Scotland stays in
:06:03. > :06:05.the single market via the EA with the agreement in support of the UK.
:06:06. > :06:09.That might be, if the Scottish Government get their way, where we
:06:10. > :06:13.are just prior to a referendum on independence. That is confusing that
:06:14. > :06:19.with the ultimate objective, which would still be Scottish membership
:06:20. > :06:24.of the EU. David, we will be back with you later. I was going to say
:06:25. > :06:25.that I hope it doesn't start raining, but that means that it
:06:26. > :06:25.will! I'm joined by the Daily Record's
:06:26. > :06:36.Political Editor, David Clegg. What do you make of all this? As we
:06:37. > :06:40.were saying, it's hardly surprising. It would be more amazing if the
:06:41. > :06:45.British government was not aware there might be another referendum.
:06:46. > :06:48.Nicola Sturgeon said every day that she is on the cusp of another
:06:49. > :06:52.referendum. If they were not considering that, it would be
:06:53. > :06:56.surprising. I think we are getting to a level of rhetoric now where we
:06:57. > :07:03.are almost passed the point of no return. The SNP conference is on
:07:04. > :07:06.March 17. All of the assembled SNP grassroots supporters will be there
:07:07. > :07:10.and they will want to hear something significant from Nicola Sturgeon
:07:11. > :07:12.about independence, and she won't be able to get out of conference
:07:13. > :07:20.without giving them something. She has already said not this year. The
:07:21. > :07:24.most obvious thing she could do is, as we know, it requires the
:07:25. > :07:28.permission of the UK Government for the Scottish Parliament to hold a
:07:29. > :07:32.referendum through a section 30 order, so I would expect at some
:07:33. > :07:36.point in the next few weeks Nicola Sturgeon will specifically ask for
:07:37. > :07:40.that. That does not commit heard anything. The referendum bill would
:07:41. > :07:44.still have to pass and set it down the road. There has been some
:07:45. > :07:48.suggestion from Michael Fallon, among others, that the British
:07:49. > :07:53.government might say, look, you have the right to have a referendum, just
:07:54. > :07:57.not while we are negotiating Brexit. You had one, you have decided. They
:07:58. > :08:00.could actually stop the SNP holding one before the final Brexit steel
:08:01. > :08:06.was done and the British government would presumably say,, the polls
:08:07. > :08:12.show that people don't want a referendum. Politically, would that
:08:13. > :08:16.be suicide? That would be difficult. The discussions going on between the
:08:17. > :08:21.SNP and the UK Government are about how they respond. On the one hand,
:08:22. > :08:24.among Conservative voters in Scotland, it would probably be
:08:25. > :08:28.pretty popular to block a referendum, but how does it leave
:08:29. > :08:32.the general mood of the country? Clearly, at some point, if Nicola
:08:33. > :08:36.Sturgeon continues to be the most popular politician with the most
:08:37. > :08:43.popular party, at some point you will have to quit her. I think we
:08:44. > :08:50.all have great experience of referendums. -- you will have to
:08:51. > :08:53.give it to her. A mood is important. Comments by David Mundell and
:08:54. > :08:57.Theresa May, they are floating this one, rather than taking a hard line?
:08:58. > :09:03.There was an idea that Michael Fallon when he had shot his mouth
:09:04. > :09:07.off when he said, you're not going to get it. I think there was
:09:08. > :09:12.probably tactics, sending him out to fly a kite and see what the response
:09:13. > :09:18.was. What they have decided about that is probably another question.
:09:19. > :09:22.Yes, seeing it full of bullet holes! The UK Government have an equally
:09:23. > :09:25.difficult decision about how to deal with it if she pulls the trigger.
:09:26. > :09:27.Plans to close a number of Jobcentres across Scotland
:09:28. > :09:29.are being scrutinised by politicians at both Holyrood and Westminster.
:09:30. > :09:31.Unions say the proposals will see around 10% of centres
:09:32. > :09:35.Opponents say those searching for work will suffer,
:09:36. > :09:37.but the UK government argues more people are finding help
:09:38. > :09:40.Joining me now to discuss the implications of the move
:09:41. > :09:50.is Martin Bright from the employment charity The Creative Society.
:09:51. > :10:05.Martin, can you hear me? Hello, Martin Bright? Hello? No, I'm... I'm
:10:06. > :10:08.afraid he can't hear me. We will come back to that interview, if we
:10:09. > :10:12.manage to get Martin Bright in sound as well as vision. In the meantime,
:10:13. > :10:18.what we were talking about there, do you think it would be... As I say, I
:10:19. > :10:22.can see the British government saying, OK, you can have a
:10:23. > :10:26.referendum, we don't want to stand, but just not while we are doing the
:10:27. > :10:33.negotiations. Would that be seem up here, do you think, as common sense
:10:34. > :10:38.or a great infringement on our right to do this? Like everything else, I
:10:39. > :10:43.suspect it would split opinion. Clearly, it makes logistical sense,
:10:44. > :10:46.given the nature of the difficulty and complications that the UK
:10:47. > :10:51.Government are going to have negotiating a deal, to also be
:10:52. > :10:54.trying to wage a referendum campaign in Scotland would be an absolute
:10:55. > :10:59.nightmare, so they would be very keen to avoid it. Whether that gets
:11:00. > :11:05.them into a position where they say, you can't have this referendum now,
:11:06. > :11:09.but let us get the deal sorted, let the people in Scotland know what the
:11:10. > :11:20.Brexit offer looks like and then you can have one, and they could maybe
:11:21. > :11:25.do that. Generally hostile to independence, but do you think the
:11:26. > :11:29.British government is playing this correctly? There is a perception
:11:30. > :11:34.that they are a bit tin eared. They could have come and said, look, this
:11:35. > :11:37.is a marvellous opportunity, Brexit. We can't wait, we are setting up
:11:38. > :11:42.committees with the Scottish Government to discuss agriculture,
:11:43. > :11:47.tax rates, rather than just saying, oh, we will consult with you and
:11:48. > :11:52.then leaving the Scottish Government too, as far as we can see, not
:11:53. > :11:59.reasonably say, you haven't done any of the things you said you would.
:12:00. > :12:05.The record towards independence is still an issue to be as peshmerga
:12:06. > :12:08.still to be decided maybe. In terms of the UK Government, I think there
:12:09. > :12:13.is a feeling in a suspicion that I certainly share that the advice and
:12:14. > :12:19.the way that the UK Government is directing the Scottish question in
:12:20. > :12:23.the aftermath of Brexit has not been particularly well advised. It has
:12:24. > :12:28.seemed that, almost every point, Scotland's interests have been
:12:29. > :12:31.pretty far down the pecking order, and that obviously leads to
:12:32. > :12:38.resentment, and that can be a problem. You wouldn't need to be the
:12:39. > :12:43.most brilliant special adviser in the world to tell them how to do it
:12:44. > :12:47.better, would you? No. In their defence, they have had it not to
:12:48. > :12:54.deal with, taking over the mess left by the Brexit administration. --
:12:55. > :12:57.Brexit referendum. The news about the discussions that are happening
:12:58. > :13:02.is maybe that they are trying to get on top of it but they have a lot of
:13:03. > :13:06.work to do. I think we can now talk to Martin Bright from The Creative
:13:07. > :13:13.Society, who is interested in the question of Jobcentres. You can now
:13:14. > :13:19.hear me, can you? I can. Do you think Jobcentres are past their sell
:13:20. > :13:25.by date? Do you call them silos of despair or something like that? Yes,
:13:26. > :13:30.I think Jobcentres were a good 20th century solution to the 20th century
:13:31. > :13:35.problem. They are pretty good at providing large numbers of jobs in
:13:36. > :13:39.retail or manufacturing in periods of very high unemployment. The
:13:40. > :13:44.problem now is that they are essentially benefits offices and the
:13:45. > :13:51.function of actually creating jobs is no longer really there. These are
:13:52. > :13:57.places that people do not want to go to, they are unpleasant places and
:13:58. > :14:04.they are not suited to job creation in the 21st century. It isn't all
:14:05. > :14:10.that long ago since the Jobcentre bit was separate from the benefits
:14:11. > :14:15.of this bit, isn't it? Was it not new Labour who merged them? There
:14:16. > :14:19.has been a whole history of back and forward between these functions
:14:20. > :14:24.being merged and separated. It has always been a problem when they've
:14:25. > :14:27.been separate because, if it's just the benefits of this, it's a really
:14:28. > :14:33.unpleasant place to be, and best some logic in attaching a job
:14:34. > :14:38.creation element. -- if it's just the benefits office. The moment you
:14:39. > :14:44.do that, the Jobcentre element becomes poisoned by the benefits
:14:45. > :14:49.office. We just need to rethink it. If someone is genuinely perhaps not
:14:50. > :14:53.even claiming benefits, just genuinely getting a job, does it
:14:54. > :14:59.make it the kind of place you don't want to go into? Yes, particularly
:15:00. > :15:04.in recent years when benefit sanctions have become so severe,
:15:05. > :15:09.NIMBY attempt to stop people becoming part of the benefits
:15:10. > :15:14.culture, -- in the attempt. These are places that people associate
:15:15. > :15:19.with punishment. Could you give us an example. I know that Europe --
:15:20. > :15:24.your organisation is involved in and some councils have effectively been
:15:25. > :15:30.trying to bypass the system and do something else. What are they trying
:15:31. > :15:32.to do? They have been a number of different approaches from local
:15:33. > :15:38.authorities and small charities like us to take the functions of job
:15:39. > :15:41.creation element of the Jobcentres out of the physical buildings
:15:42. > :15:47.themselves and place them elsewhere. You either go to places where young
:15:48. > :15:52.people are, youth centres or further education colleges, or indeed, in
:15:53. > :15:56.our case, we work with the creative sector, so you trying to take these
:15:57. > :16:02.functions into arts institutions. You make a very important point,
:16:03. > :16:05.which I want to make you to make the game, which is that your view is
:16:06. > :16:11.that, in this day and getting a job isn't about going into a government
:16:12. > :16:17.office and sitting behind a desk. If you are a young person, you need
:16:18. > :16:20.informal skills. That is what you are trying to encourage? Our point
:16:21. > :16:25.is that the sort of jobs you want to get in this day and age are not
:16:26. > :16:28.industrialised jobs. These are jobs where you need to use initiative,
:16:29. > :16:31.you need soft skills and you will not pick these up in effectively
:16:32. > :16:36.benefit offices and Jobcentres. Let's cross now to the chamber
:16:37. > :16:38.at Holyrood for the start of that debate on the proposed Jobcentre
:16:39. > :16:40.closures in Scotland. The Employability and Training
:16:41. > :16:57.Minister, Jamie Hepburn, Indeed this is a UK Government who
:16:58. > :17:03.seems not even to know where Glasgow is, and the House of Commons when
:17:04. > :17:08.asked about the close euros in Glasgow, one MP said the Minister
:17:09. > :17:12.for employment, the UK Minister for employment, was in muscle Borough
:17:13. > :17:17.two weeks ago, that in itself was one example of how far removed the
:17:18. > :17:22.UK Government is from local communities in Scotland. If these
:17:23. > :17:27.proposals were not bad enough, on 26th January it was again with no
:17:28. > :17:31.consultation, there was announced a further raft of closures across the
:17:32. > :17:37.UK and across Scotland. This lack of forewarning came despite myself
:17:38. > :17:43.having raised directly the fear to have provided such previously with
:17:44. > :17:47.Glasgow when I met in January. I wrote to him before that meeting. I
:17:48. > :17:51.have to say by some miraculous coincidence with this being the day
:17:52. > :17:55.of the debate he has replied to that letter today. What stands out at
:17:56. > :17:58.first glance in that letter is that there is not particularly much
:17:59. > :18:02.additional information, there is no commitment to consulting on all the
:18:03. > :18:06.closures and particularly disappointing is the failure by
:18:07. > :18:11.MrHinds to commit to visit the communities and the people who we
:18:12. > :18:16.impacted on the ground to truly understand the real concerns and I
:18:17. > :18:21.would continue to urge him to come and visit those communities. These
:18:22. > :18:25.proposals, these further proposals that were revealed on 26th January,
:18:26. > :18:31.and a further 16 sites on other parts of Scotland, nine Jobcentres
:18:32. > :18:37.six, back offices in one centre for health and disability assessment. It
:18:38. > :18:45.could mean the closure of a further six Jobcentres. We also learned from
:18:46. > :18:51.the press that a Jobcentre not even listed on the planned closure list
:18:52. > :18:54.is planned to move to Falkirk. We continue to find out details from
:18:55. > :18:59.the media rather than directly from the UK Government is a continuing
:19:00. > :19:02.demonstration of the failure to properly communicate these
:19:03. > :19:06.decisions. We know staff and services will move from the current
:19:07. > :19:10.Jobcentre before March 2018, that's a move that involves a distance of
:19:11. > :19:15.2. 9 miles. Had this been judged to be 0. 1 of a mile more a
:19:16. > :19:19.consultation on closure would have been required. It is my view that
:19:20. > :19:23.any proposal for closure should be open to consultation. The UK
:19:24. > :19:27.Government can't just make decisions based on lines of circles on a map
:19:28. > :19:31.which it seems very clear is formed how much of the decisions about
:19:32. > :19:35.sites to be closed has been made. I want to highlight my concerns about
:19:36. > :19:40.these plans, concerns echoed by the First Minister in this chamber last
:19:41. > :19:44.week and concerns I have heard directly from people who will be
:19:45. > :19:48.affected. The fact... Let's speak to some MSPs now.
:19:49. > :19:50.From the SNP, we have Ben Macpherson,
:19:51. > :19:52.Maurice Golden is from the Scottish Conservatives,
:19:53. > :19:58.and, from the Scottish Greens, Alison Johnstone.
:19:59. > :20:03.Well, my apologies, you won't have heard him, we were talking to
:20:04. > :20:07.someone from the Creativity Society talking about alternatives for
:20:08. > :20:10.Jobcentres, making the point that they're entirely 20th century and
:20:11. > :20:14.that not only is there no need for the ones that are going to be
:20:15. > :20:19.closed, arguably we need to think of some alternative to Jobcentres as a
:20:20. > :20:24.whole. Well, as you said I have not been able to hear the conversation
:20:25. > :20:27.you had earlier but the journey of the move from Jobcentres to
:20:28. > :20:32.Jobcentre Plus was obviously something that happened over the
:20:33. > :20:36.Labour Government in Westminster. I think at the moment the way that our
:20:37. > :20:40.benefits system works and the accessibility issues there are
:20:41. > :20:46.around making sure that there are physical assets in communities where
:20:47. > :20:49.people can go and make the claims to social security that they have
:20:50. > :20:53.rights to, that in the here and now in today in the communities that I
:20:54. > :20:57.represent and I am sure many others on the panel will agree, that
:20:58. > :21:02.Jobcentres are absolutely crucial. We do live in an age where there is
:21:03. > :21:06.more digital access but I think some people don't have that capacity. You
:21:07. > :21:10.are concerned about people claiming benefits having to travel. You don't
:21:11. > :21:19.seem to be mentioning somebody looking for a job. Well, of course
:21:20. > :21:23.Jobcentre Plus and that's the distinction combines both those
:21:24. > :21:27.services. So the support that there is in a Jobcentre, I am a member of
:21:28. > :21:31.the social security committee, we visited a Jobcentre recently, I have
:21:32. > :21:35.done so in my own constituency. Provided in terms of supporting
:21:36. > :21:39.individuals to apply for jobs, the work coaches who are there which are
:21:40. > :21:43.new initiatives of universal credit and there is still work to make sure
:21:44. > :21:48.that's delivered more effectively and more compassionately and
:21:49. > :21:51.supportively are essential. So I think as we move into the times
:21:52. > :21:55.ahead, absolutely Jobcentres are crucial, both for helping people to
:21:56. > :22:01.access the benefits that they have an absolute right to under law and
:22:02. > :22:05.in terms of the society that we believe in where we People's Quiz
:22:06. > :22:10.when they're in difficulty and to help them -- where people are in
:22:11. > :22:18.difficulty and to help them into work and the work schemes that the
:22:19. > :22:21.Scottish Government are going to change and implement without the
:22:22. > :22:25.conditionality within that and that will help provide a more supportive
:22:26. > :22:30.environment. Colin Smith, there you are, yes, we are getting to you. We
:22:31. > :22:34.have got to you. I can see there might be issues for people on some
:22:35. > :22:37.types of benefit but all this row about it's unfair people have to
:22:38. > :22:40.travel three miles, if you are looking for a job and you can't
:22:41. > :22:45.travel three miles to a Jobcentre you are not going to have much
:22:46. > :22:48.chance of getting a job. I live in a rural area and there aren't
:22:49. > :22:51.Jobcentres three miles apart in that particular region, people do have to
:22:52. > :22:56.travel and will have to travel bigger distances as a result of
:22:57. > :23:00.these changes. There are 139,000 skts currently out of work this
:23:01. > :23:04.Scotland. We need to be providing more help to get people into help,
:23:05. > :23:08.not providing less help. The Tory argument... Aren't you missing the
:23:09. > :23:11.point. The argument from the Government and others, including the
:23:12. > :23:16.chap we were talking about the Creative Society, they're not saying
:23:17. > :23:19.they don't want to help people get jobs, they're saying that Jobcentres
:23:20. > :23:23.are a completely 20th century way of doing that. If you want to get a job
:23:24. > :23:27.you can do it on the internet, it's more important particularly with
:23:28. > :23:31.young people to encourage them to use word of mouth and to develop
:23:32. > :23:37.their social skills. The whole idea you get a job by walking into a
:23:38. > :23:40.Government office and sitting behind a desk is outdated. I don't agree
:23:41. > :23:45.that the support provided through Jobcentres is not useful to people.
:23:46. > :23:51.Can you explain why the statistics show that only 36% of the people who
:23:52. > :23:54.go to Jobcentres get a job? 36% is a substantial number of people. The
:23:55. > :23:57.reality is the argument the Tories are putting forward is that the
:23:58. > :24:01.reason for these Jobcentre closures is that unemployment has fallen. The
:24:02. > :24:05.reality is it is 14% higher than it was during the financial crisis. We
:24:06. > :24:09.need to be providing more support for people to get into work, not
:24:10. > :24:11.less. What's important people are losing their jobs as a result of
:24:12. > :24:13.these closures, several hundred people will be out of work in
:24:14. > :24:18.Scotland because they won't have a job to go to in a Jobcentre. There
:24:19. > :24:23.is an area... You are not seriously suggesting keeping Jobcentres open
:24:24. > :24:27.as a job creation programme? One of the proposals in my own
:24:28. > :24:30.constituency, a town with one of the highest levels of unemployment in
:24:31. > :24:33.Scotland, yet they're proposing to move a call centre to somewhere else
:24:34. > :24:37.in Scotland. It's a wrong-headed decision that will take jobs away
:24:38. > :24:40.from that local community and is unrealistic to expect those people
:24:41. > :24:47.to travel across Scotland for that employment. Alison Johnson, can we
:24:48. > :24:51.try you on this, because both the previous people are basically saying
:24:52. > :24:55.we need to help people get jobs. The people who want to close the
:24:56. > :24:59.Jobcentres are not saying they don't want to have people find jobs,
:25:00. > :25:03.they're saying if only a third of people ever go to a Jobcentre
:25:04. > :25:05.actually get a job, there is clearly a problem so we should start
:25:06. > :25:10.thinking about doing this in a different way. Well, I would agree
:25:11. > :25:13.with Colin in that a third of people is a significant number. That's
:25:14. > :25:18.pathetic for a Government agency that's supposed to be getting people
:25:19. > :25:21.jobs. They can always do better, I agree wholeheartedly. Would we
:25:22. > :25:24.consider removing a GP surgery from a heart of a community? This is one
:25:25. > :25:30.of the most important services that we as a society can offer. The lack
:25:31. > :25:35.of consultation is quite, frankly, frightening. You simply can't go
:25:36. > :25:38.about closing Jobcentres willy-nilly. On the social security
:25:39. > :25:41.committee we have been taking evidence from a lot of people who
:25:42. > :25:44.have significant difficulties engaging with technology. We have
:25:45. > :25:48.been hearing from citizens advice and others about how much time
:25:49. > :25:51.they're spending getting people an e-mail account, showing them how to
:25:52. > :25:55.use the internet. So one size will never fit all. I wouldn't suggest
:25:56. > :25:59.for a second that we have too many Jobcentres, I think we should be
:26:00. > :26:04.investing in this if we are serious about having a working participant
:26:05. > :26:07.of society. Even from the way you have described the problem, the this
:26:08. > :26:11.you are suggesting investing in doesn't sound to me very much like a
:26:12. > :26:15.Jobcentre. No one is saying we shouldn't invest money in helping
:26:16. > :26:18.people who can't use e-mail because they're not going to get a job
:26:19. > :26:22.unless they can do that, but you don't need Jobcentres for that. I
:26:23. > :26:27.think we do. We have staff there who are trained and expert at helping
:26:28. > :26:31.find out what would best suit the client and ensuring that the client
:26:32. > :26:36.has a pathway into that work. Do you know the statistics? The statistics
:26:37. > :26:40.may be worse if we remove Jobcentres from our communities. Inclusion
:26:41. > :26:44.Scotland are really concerned about the impact on disabled, those using
:26:45. > :26:47.the service who have disabilities. Three miles might be nothing if you
:26:48. > :26:51.are able-bodied and in good health but it can be a significant barrier
:26:52. > :26:56.to those who don't enjoy good health. Maurice Golden, that's a
:26:57. > :27:00.point, if you are disabled it is easy, you might say people who are
:27:01. > :27:03.able-bodied and looking for work as I said earlier, if they can't go
:27:04. > :27:06.three miles to a Jobcentre what's the point of trying to get them a
:27:07. > :27:12.job, but if you are disabled that might be a serious issue. Well, yes,
:27:13. > :27:15.and that's why we need further consultation on any of the proposed
:27:16. > :27:21.closures but I think one thing that you may not have picked up from some
:27:22. > :27:24.of my colleagues is that down in Westminster, both the Labour and SNP
:27:25. > :27:28.have supported a modernisation of the Jobcentres. There is a
:27:29. > :27:35.recognition that, for example, the claimant count in Glasgow has gone
:27:36. > :27:38.down by 44% since 2010. More and more people are accessing Jobcentres
:27:39. > :27:42.online. So that's something that we should all be working towards. Do
:27:43. > :27:46.you think there is a case, again, as I apologise to Colin, I know you
:27:47. > :27:51.didn't hear Martin Bright, the chap from the Creative Society, but one
:27:52. > :27:56.of the points he makes is that while the New Labour's merger of the
:27:57. > :28:01.Benefits Agency with the jobs agency might have been well intentioned,
:28:02. > :28:04.actually the way it's turned out is it makes these places really dismal
:28:05. > :28:07.and there might be an argument for separating the two out again? Well,
:28:08. > :28:12.I know when I have been unemployed in the past I have used Jobcentres,
:28:13. > :28:16.I find them helpful in helping people to find work. They did it for
:28:17. > :28:25.me and I know they're doing it for others. They made you an MSP? They
:28:26. > :28:34.didn't get me this job. Tell us which Jobcentre that is then! Well,
:28:35. > :28:37.I am sure I can point you to it once we finish this conversation, if you
:28:38. > :28:41.are looking for a change in career! All right, we will have to leave it
:28:42. > :28:46.there. Thank you all very much indeed. A quick shot of all you
:28:47. > :28:48.standing looking marvellous, thank you.
:28:49. > :28:50.And now to this week's Prime Minister's Questions,
:28:51. > :28:52.where the subject of health and, especially,
:28:53. > :28:55.Jeremy Corbyn accused the UK Government of arranging
:28:56. > :28:59.a "sweetheart deal" with a Tory-led council to stop a controversial
:29:00. > :29:08.The Labour leader asked Theresa May to "come clean" on how much
:29:09. > :29:12.money had been offered to Surrey County Council.
:29:13. > :29:23.I wonder if it's to do with the fact they both represent Surrey
:29:24. > :29:28.constituencies. MrSpeaker, there was a second text from Surrey County
:29:29. > :29:34.Council leader to Nick and in the second text it says the numbers you
:29:35. > :29:39.indicated are the numbers that I understand are acceptable for me to
:29:40. > :29:44.accept and call off the R. Now I have been reading a bit of John Le
:29:45. > :29:53.Carre and apparently R means referendum. It's very subtle all
:29:54. > :30:00.this. And he goes on to say in his text to Nick, if it is possible for
:30:01. > :30:07.that info to be sent to myself I can then revert back soonest, really
:30:08. > :30:14.want to kill this off. So, how much did the Government offer Surrey to
:30:15. > :30:20.kill this off? And is the same sweetheart deal on offer to every
:30:21. > :30:25.council facing the social care crisis created by her Government? I
:30:26. > :30:29.have made clear to the right honourable gentleman what has been
:30:30. > :30:35.made available to every council, which is the ability to raise the
:30:36. > :30:45.preset. Yet again what we get from Labour are alternative facts. What
:30:46. > :30:51.they really need is an alternative leader. When the Prime Minister was
:30:52. > :30:56.in Edinburgh on 15th July last year she pledged that she would and I
:30:57. > :31:03.quote, not trigger Article 50 until she had an agreed UK-wide approach.
:31:04. > :31:08.So given that the Scottish parliament has voted overwhelmingly
:31:09. > :31:10.against her approach and all bar one MP representing a Scottish
:31:11. > :31:17.constituency in this House of Commons has voted against her
:31:18. > :31:22.approach, she does not have an agreed UK-wide approach.
:31:23. > :31:29.As the Prime Minister knows, a lot of people in Scotland watch Prime
:31:30. > :31:34.Minister's Questions, so will she killed those viewers in Scotland
:31:35. > :31:41.whether she intends to keep her word to people in Scotland or not? --
:31:42. > :31:44.will she tell. We are ensuring that we work closely with the Scottish
:31:45. > :31:48.Government and the other devolved administrations as we take this
:31:49. > :31:52.forward. I would remind the honourable gentleman that the
:31:53. > :31:55.Supreme Court was very clear that the Scottish parliament does not
:31:56. > :32:00.have a veto on the triggering of Article 50. The bill that is going
:32:01. > :32:04.through the house obviously is giving the power to the government
:32:05. > :32:09.to trigger Article 50. I would also remind him of this point, because he
:32:10. > :32:14.constantly refers to the interests of Scotland inside the EU. An
:32:15. > :32:21.independent Scotland would not be in the European Union. Does the Prime
:32:22. > :32:25.Minister agree that, in a 21st century parliament, the rules should
:32:26. > :32:30.not enable any member to speak the 58 minutes in a three-hour debate?
:32:31. > :32:33.Does she agree that the rules should be changed to prevent filibustering
:32:34. > :32:40.and ensure that members from all sides have their share of the time
:32:41. > :32:42.available? I have to say I find that a curious question from the
:32:43. > :32:51.honourable gentleman. Last night, I was out of the house between the two
:32:52. > :32:54.votes. I switched on the BBC Parliamentary channel and I saw the
:32:55. > :33:05.honourable gentleman speaking. I turned over to something else. I
:33:06. > :33:08.switched back. I switched back to the Parliamentary channel. I saw the
:33:09. > :33:14.honourable gentleman still speaking. I switched over to something else. I
:33:15. > :33:19.switched back and the honourable gentleman was still speaking. He is
:33:20. > :33:20.the last person to complain about in this house.
:33:21. > :33:22.Well, for reaction to that, here's our Westminster correspondent
:33:23. > :33:36.Hopefully still dry and with some MPs put yes, it still dry and I've
:33:37. > :33:39.got MPs, but it is very cold. I've got Alistair Carmichael for the
:33:40. > :33:43.Liberal Democrats, Ian Murray for Labour, Kirsten Oswald for the SNP
:33:44. > :33:47.and Iain Stewart for the Conservatives. You have all said you
:33:48. > :33:51.are desperate to talk about Brexit, and it is my wish to help you in
:33:52. > :33:55.this, because you've been talking about it for five days in the House
:33:56. > :33:59.of Commons. Five days in, the government has not been defeated.
:34:00. > :34:04.You are probably quite glad about that. Is it all been worth it and
:34:05. > :34:08.has anything changed since we started discussing Brexit? The court
:34:09. > :34:13.decision in a few weeks ago were quite parliament to have a debate
:34:14. > :34:16.so, if you are having a debate, you have full consideration of all the
:34:17. > :34:19.issues and we have certainly at that. I am pleased we are keeping
:34:20. > :34:25.the bill is simple. It's the start of the process, not the negotiation
:34:26. > :34:30.itself. It's the authorisation for the government to start it. I hope
:34:31. > :34:34.this goes through so we can get on with the negotiations about the deal
:34:35. > :34:37.that works for the country. The court said it had to happen and
:34:38. > :34:42.therefore it had to happen. Your party seems less than impressed with
:34:43. > :34:48.the way it's gone. Is less than impressive. We have a one line bill,
:34:49. > :34:52.a white Paper that arrived in the middle of the process which, from
:34:53. > :34:57.looking at it, seems to mostly consist of blank space itself. There
:34:58. > :35:00.are some difficulties in persuading me that we've had a full and
:35:01. > :35:05.thorough discussion of it. In the midst of that, we've had a Scottish
:35:06. > :35:09.parliament who have clearly had strong views, in my view is those of
:35:10. > :35:14.the Scottish people, but we have had difficulty making that heard here
:35:15. > :35:18.and are being persuaded that the government is taking that on board.
:35:19. > :35:22.I think much more should be done to persuade people that the government
:35:23. > :35:27.are really taking it on board. Very few issues link you and the SNP, but
:35:28. > :35:32.this is one that does tonight presumably you will again vote
:35:33. > :35:37.against triggering Article 50? I will, because the bill has not been
:35:38. > :35:40.changed or altered. I don't know why the government had to be dragged by
:35:41. > :35:44.the Supreme Court to bring this process because they are just
:35:45. > :35:47.running it through. They could have done that last July and we would
:35:48. > :35:51.have been much further ahead. They fought the process and now they are
:35:52. > :35:56.fighting to be able to amend it. I have never seen as many amendments
:35:57. > :36:00.to a bill as I have seen in this process, but they are all concerned
:36:01. > :36:03.with the big issues about EU nationals, the effect on the
:36:04. > :36:06.economy, parliament having a say, etc. We will not reverse the
:36:07. > :36:12.arguments again. But none of that has been accepted. The key thing
:36:13. > :36:16.here, and it would be interesting to get the government response, every
:36:17. > :36:20.bill that goes through the House of Commons chamber has a report stage,
:36:21. > :36:24.and that is a separate stage to report back to the house a bill that
:36:25. > :36:28.has been amended. There is no report stage, so the government that had no
:36:29. > :36:32.intention of accepting any amendments so the process is a sham
:36:33. > :36:37.and it highlights the fact that Brexit doesn't mean Brexit if it
:36:38. > :36:42.means a Tory Brexit. If it goes through unamended, that is a result
:36:43. > :36:45.of the Parliamentary arithmetic, isn't it? It probably will go
:36:46. > :36:49.through this evening but that doesn't change the politics of it.
:36:50. > :36:55.We have got two years of this still to go and the future of EU nationals
:36:56. > :36:58.living in the UK, for example, our nationals living in other parts of
:36:59. > :37:03.the EU, these are problems that still have to be faced and dealt
:37:04. > :37:08.with. Yes, it's an issue of Parliamentary arithmetic, but for
:37:09. > :37:12.me, the issue is that the reason this bill is almost certain to go
:37:13. > :37:15.through unamended is that the Labour Party has thrown in the towel on
:37:16. > :37:21.just about every significant vote we have had. You know that it only
:37:22. > :37:25.works, parliament only works when the official opposition does the job
:37:26. > :37:33.it is there to do and offers meaningful opposition. When Jeremy
:37:34. > :37:38.Corbyn marches into the division lobby shoulder to shoulder with
:37:39. > :37:43.Theresa May... It is disingenuous to say that we have stopped this
:37:44. > :37:54.bill... Tory rebels, adding them... Simon Petra -- you would have had a
:37:55. > :37:58.chance of getting Tory rebels. Eight Tory rebels yesterday, that was it.
:37:59. > :38:03.You have thrown in the towel at every turn. You are better than
:38:04. > :38:09.that. We know that you like talking about Brexit at every turn. But
:38:10. > :38:16.another idea is that of a second Scottish independence ever read on.
:38:17. > :38:20.As we progress towards Brexit, are we moving towards one? I don't think
:38:21. > :38:24.so. There is clear evidence that Scotland and the people of Scotland
:38:25. > :38:26.don't want one. Frankly, I think the Scottish Government should engage
:38:27. > :38:31.constructively in the Brexit process. Looking at the additional
:38:32. > :38:34.powers that potentially could be devolved to Scotland, and working
:38:35. > :38:39.with the government on this, rather than creating uncertainty for
:38:40. > :38:43.everyone by keeping this threat of another referendum alive. Tell us
:38:44. > :38:49.when the second referendum is going to be. I think it is these gentlemen
:38:50. > :38:53.to look to to discover where we are with this. Some of the things that
:38:54. > :38:56.Ian said were extraordinary. The Scottish Cabinet has been engaging
:38:57. > :39:02.constructively with the UK Government throughout the process.
:39:03. > :39:07.The missing link... So take the independence referendum of the
:39:08. > :39:10.table. The missing link is that the UK Government seems unwilling to
:39:11. > :39:15.engage in compromise. If I can finish, it is unacceptable to the
:39:16. > :39:20.people that are watching all this, with some astonishment, I would
:39:21. > :39:23.think, to see the way that the Scottish representatives are being
:39:24. > :39:26.dealt with and to see that their government in Scotland is not being
:39:27. > :39:31.listened to. In terms of the GMC, I think it's pretty clear that the
:39:32. > :39:34.Scottish reference -- Scottish representatives are not being
:39:35. > :39:42.listened to either. Are we moving towards Indyref 2? I don't think so,
:39:43. > :39:45.because I don't think Nicola Sturgeon wants a second referendum,
:39:46. > :39:50.and I think we should quickly get this off the table so it doesn't
:39:51. > :39:53.confuse Brexit so we can work towards a Brexit that works for the
:39:54. > :39:59.whole UK, including Scotland. The bill is going through tonight and we
:40:00. > :40:02.are leaving the EU. We have to do all that we can to get the best
:40:03. > :40:09.deal. And the best deal for Scotland. Alistair Carmichael, you
:40:10. > :40:12.are a former Scottish secretary. We hear reports today that the Scottish
:40:13. > :40:16.office of the UK Government is planning for a second independence
:40:17. > :40:23.referendum. Does that ring true for you? I'm not going to second-guess
:40:24. > :40:32.that. The difficulty for Chryston and the SNP is that they are using
:40:33. > :40:38.this, the Brexit issue, as a lever to get Scotland out of the UK. Now,
:40:39. > :40:42.really, what they should be doing if they are sincere in their commitment
:40:43. > :40:48.to the EU, they should be working with other people in other parts of
:40:49. > :40:51.the UK who share their views and focusing on that, rather than seeing
:40:52. > :40:56.everything through the prism of Scottish independence. Much though
:40:57. > :40:59.it pains me to agree with Ian on this occasion, it's right, you do
:41:00. > :41:06.really need to take the Indyref off the table on this occasion. We'll
:41:07. > :41:11.have to leave it there. They have to go back in the House of Commons.
:41:12. > :41:14.They have some voting at 5pm. There are something like ten separate
:41:15. > :41:23.votes, so they are going to go back and prepare for that, but at least
:41:24. > :41:27.they will be in the warm. Big issues, Brexit, Indyref 2. Let's
:41:28. > :41:30.narrow it down to Labour. Is there any sense of them getting it
:41:31. > :41:36.together? What Ian Murray was arguing there flatly contradicts
:41:37. > :41:40.what his party leader is arguing. I don't think there is, frankly. The
:41:41. > :41:44.debate we are having that will there be another independence referendum,
:41:45. > :41:48.what discussions are the government having, the Labour Party are nowhere
:41:49. > :41:53.near that. The last independence referendum on the known site was
:41:54. > :41:59.almost entirely a label one. Anything that... The Labour Party at
:42:00. > :42:05.the moment doesn't seem to know what day it is. Or what, I mean, they
:42:06. > :42:09.would say they had a line on independence, they are against a
:42:10. > :42:12.referendum, but we have had varying suggestions they might not be
:42:13. > :42:15.institutionally in favour of independence but some might campaign
:42:16. > :42:22.for it and then they can't do that... They have learnt... What is
:42:23. > :42:26.hoped this is the fact that, as I say, you have just had Ian Murray,
:42:27. > :42:33.the only Labour MP in Scotland, and what he is saying is, he is
:42:34. > :42:38.justifying voting against the way that his party leader is ordered
:42:39. > :42:42.them to vote in a three line whip. While defending the approach his
:42:43. > :42:44.party is taking, which is astonishing. Yesterday, at the
:42:45. > :42:50.Scottish Parliament, we had a trio of rebels that are considered to be
:42:51. > :42:54.Jeremy Corbyn supporters but then voted against the way Kezia Dugdale
:42:55. > :43:00.was instructing her MSPs. They are completely at sea. The problem for
:43:01. > :43:02.them is that all parties tend to have a field Mavericks. Jeremy
:43:03. > :43:11.Corbyn was a maverick in the Labour Party. But this is right down the
:43:12. > :43:15.middle. -- a feud mavericks. In the next essential problem with the SNP,
:43:16. > :43:19.their sole purpose is to agitate for independence. The Labour has all
:43:20. > :43:27.been -- always been about something else but in a political environment
:43:28. > :43:32.across the UK entirely defined by constitutional attrition. It is
:43:33. > :43:37.almost like the pop charts are sewn up and Labour are saying, actually,
:43:38. > :43:41.we are into jazz. And nobody is listening to jazz right now. I have
:43:42. > :43:45.a pet theory, which is that the party which stands to benefit most
:43:46. > :43:52.from the second referendum is Labour, because it might end up for
:43:53. > :43:53.them. Do you mean if it is a yes vote? Or a no vote.
:43:54. > :43:57.FMQs is on BBC Two Scotland at midday tomorrow.
:43:58. > :44:11.See how he turned his life around from being the Scottish bad boy...