:00:18. > :00:19.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:20. > :00:22.Coming up on the programme: official figures reveal the impact
:00:23. > :00:26.the sharp decline in the North Sea oil sector,
:00:27. > :00:31.The Government's promised to speed up payments to farmers hit
:00:32. > :00:33.by delays, but the Conservatives are calling for an inquiry.
:00:34. > :00:40.And here at Westminster, will the SNP scupper plans by the UK
:00:41. > :00:42.Government to relax the rules on Sunday trading in England
:00:43. > :00:50.Newly published figures show the impact on Scotland's economy
:00:51. > :00:54.The slump in the oil price means Scotland's overall tax take per head
:00:55. > :00:59.lags behind the UK for the first time since the start of the 1980s.
:01:00. > :01:01.Ministers insist Scotland's economy remains fundamentally strong,
:01:02. > :01:05.only outpaced by London and the south-east of England.
:01:06. > :01:10.But opposition leaders say Scotland would have faced big cuts
:01:11. > :01:11.in spending if Scots had opted for independence.
:01:12. > :01:18.Our Political Editor Brian Taylor has this report.
:01:19. > :01:24.These slump in prices and lower tax revenues, and has now worked through
:01:25. > :01:31.to Scotland's balance sheet. We are talking here about 2014 slash 2015.
:01:32. > :01:37.It is reckoned that Scotland's share of oil revenues was 1.8 alien
:01:38. > :01:42.pounds. That is down from really ?4 billion in the previous year, a
:01:43. > :01:45.reduction of this defies %. Scottish Ministers visit a high-tech site in
:01:46. > :01:49.Edinburgh and stressed that Scotland's onshore economy is
:01:50. > :01:52.growing, compensating for problems in the North Sea. They admit the
:01:53. > :01:57.figures are challenging. There is no getting away from the fact that yes,
:01:58. > :02:01.this is a difficult time for the oil and gas sector, and that is
:02:02. > :02:04.reflected in the figures, but Scotland's economy is strong. And if
:02:05. > :02:09.you look over the medium-term, that strength is obvious. If you look at
:02:10. > :02:14.higher employment, higher product growth, that strength is obvious.
:02:15. > :02:18.The growth in onshore revenues like Spain that of the UK. Scotland's
:02:19. > :02:23.overall tax take her head, including oil, is fractionally lower than that
:02:24. > :02:28.of the UK for the first time in 36 years. The oil revenue figures may
:02:29. > :02:32.be worse in the current financial year. Critics say that means
:02:33. > :02:37.Scotland would have been in big trouble if we had voted for
:02:38. > :02:41.independence. We would have been facing huge cuts now if Scotland had
:02:42. > :02:44.voted for independence. The deficit has doubled, it would have had a
:02:45. > :02:51.huge impact on public services, cuts to schools, cuts to hospitals. And
:02:52. > :02:57.each time of asking, the SNP misled the people about the scale of that
:02:58. > :03:01.deficit. But Ministers say North Sea oil has sent a total of ?300 billion
:03:02. > :03:05.to the Treasury without any oil fund being established in Scotland. They
:03:06. > :03:06.have urged the Chancellor to assist the industry in the forthcoming
:03:07. > :03:07.budget. And our Political Correspondent
:03:08. > :03:25.Andrew Kerr is following the story Is this causing a stramash? It is,
:03:26. > :03:31.in a way. In a way, it is a very dry document full of facts and figures
:03:32. > :03:36.and percentages, but at the heart of it lie perhaps arguments and against
:03:37. > :03:40.independence. It is a profit and loss account for Scotland. You had
:03:41. > :03:44.the First Minister saying, things are quite bad and the North Sea at
:03:45. > :03:49.the moment, but onshore the economy is performing quite strongly. But
:03:50. > :03:54.when you look at it, there has been a 55 percentage decline in revenue
:03:55. > :04:01.from Rossi oil and gas, perhaps showing the importance of that to
:04:02. > :04:03.the Scottish economy. And of course the prounion parties, Labour,
:04:04. > :04:07.Tories, the Lib Dems, they are saying that we have dodged a bullet
:04:08. > :04:12.here when it comes to independence. If people had voted yes for
:04:13. > :04:17.independence Scotland would have been becoming an independent country
:04:18. > :04:19.in the next couple of weeks. So this dry document highlights the key
:04:20. > :04:27.arguments behind the independence debate. There has been a stramash
:04:28. > :04:31.year I suppose. There was talk there that we had been misled. You could
:04:32. > :04:34.put another interpretation on it, obviously this is a difficult point
:04:35. > :04:39.for the Scottish Government, but they could reasonably say, look, we
:04:40. > :04:44.could not possibly have known that the oil prices were going to for
:04:45. > :04:50.that much nobody else did either. Or they would have made a fortune.
:04:51. > :04:52.Indeed. And the Scottish Government points to UK Government figures
:04:53. > :04:56.looking ahead to the same period which should perhaps the same amount
:04:57. > :04:59.of revenue coming in, and the Scottish Government would also point
:05:00. > :05:03.out that the price of oil goes up and down, the north-east of Scotland
:05:04. > :05:09.has benefited from that in the past, it has suffered the drops in the
:05:10. > :05:15.late 1980s and early 1990s as well. But I think the key point here is
:05:16. > :05:18.that perhaps there was too much emphasis placed on oil, although the
:05:19. > :05:22.Scottish Government were saying at the time that oil was just a bonus.
:05:23. > :05:28.It depends on your political point of view on that one. But I think it
:05:29. > :05:33.is an interesting point that the parties here continue to argue. And
:05:34. > :05:38.as Brian said in that piece, these figures do not take into account the
:05:39. > :05:41.current financial year, which in 2015 was pretty devastating for the
:05:42. > :05:45.North Sea oil industry, 2016 as well. We have seen a lot more job
:05:46. > :05:51.losses. So when we get the next round of figures, these will be even
:05:52. > :05:53.worse. Those glory days, we will be saying, when we get next year's
:05:54. > :05:55.figures. And my guest this afternoon
:05:56. > :05:57.is Andy Maciver, who was formerly Head of Communications
:05:58. > :06:07.for the Scottish Conservatives This is difficult for the Scottish
:06:08. > :06:11.Government. Very. A lot of the problem has been caused by the
:06:12. > :06:15.amount of stock the bit in the oil price during the referendum debate.
:06:16. > :06:19.They did not have to frame it quite like that. As you said," addicted
:06:20. > :06:24.the price was going to come down quite as much, but the emphasis they
:06:25. > :06:27.put on oil during the referendum debate is what has caused these
:06:28. > :06:35.problems now. It was not just emphasis. They now say that they
:06:36. > :06:38.always said oil was today bonus. But every single figure they produced to
:06:39. > :06:45.forecast Scotland's budget on independence included oil at $113
:06:46. > :06:51.per barrel. And if they had created an economic case based on oil being
:06:52. > :06:54.a bonus, it would been a much more sound campaign anyway. And they
:06:55. > :06:58.could have that economic case for Scotland being independent without
:06:59. > :07:02.oil. It is possible to do. There is another side to this, which the
:07:03. > :07:06.Government has pointed out, if you look at revenues in Scotland by
:07:07. > :07:09.capita, only London and the South-East and east of England are
:07:10. > :07:14.ahead of Scotland. We are ahead of the UK average. That is a wholesale
:07:15. > :07:20.transformation, I think, from the 1980s would have been average or
:07:21. > :07:23.below. Absolutely. It does highlight that Scotland is actually a pretty
:07:24. > :07:26.good shape. It highlights another problem which is that emphasis is
:07:27. > :07:30.far too much on spending and not on raising. A lot of this is on how
:07:31. > :07:33.much public spending would have needed to be cut if Scotland had an
:07:34. > :07:37.independent, but if they were looking more through the looking
:07:38. > :07:40.glass of reform and savings appear rather than always looking at
:07:41. > :07:44.expenditure, they could have balanced these two things much more
:07:45. > :07:46.effectively permitted. Andy, would be back with you later on.
:07:47. > :07:48.Now to Westminster, where the SNP are set to side
:07:49. > :07:51.with Labour and Conservative rebels, in blocking the Government's plan
:07:52. > :07:53.to extend Sunday opening hours in England and Wales.
:07:54. > :07:55.Our Westminster Correspondent David Porter joins us now.
:07:56. > :08:07.It is becoming controversial because the SNP were not supposed to be
:08:08. > :08:10.voting on matters which I'm sure most English MPs would consider have
:08:11. > :08:17.nothing to do with Scotland. On the face of it it does seem rather
:08:18. > :08:21.strange that the SNP is intervening on legislation which technically
:08:22. > :08:24.just involves England and Wales, and that is to relax or liberalise
:08:25. > :08:28.Sunday trading laws in England and Wales. At the moment shops in
:08:29. > :08:32.Scotland are open for longer on Sunday than they are in England, in
:08:33. > :08:37.England large stores can only open continuously for six hours.
:08:38. > :08:44.Supermarkets and things open from 10am until 4pm. This legislation
:08:45. > :08:49.would allow those laws to be liberalised, that is, to be relaxed.
:08:50. > :08:52.The SNP says that at the moment workers in Scotland are paid a
:08:53. > :08:56.premium, paid more for working on Sunday. They are worried that if the
:08:57. > :09:02.liberalisation happens around the UK, and if in essence in other Wales
:09:03. > :09:06.catch up with Scotland, depending on your point of view, or go down the
:09:07. > :09:10.Scottish route, you will have a situation where in future companies
:09:11. > :09:13.say, this is UK wide, so you do not need these premium payments in
:09:14. > :09:17.Scotland. They are arguing that although they are in favour of
:09:18. > :09:21.Sunday trading, they are seeking to try to protect Scottish workers.
:09:22. > :09:28.Something else which is important in a Scottish political context, the
:09:29. > :09:31.SNP have looked at this and thought about the Holyrood election
:09:32. > :09:33.campaign. What would happen if they supported the UK Government or
:09:34. > :09:37.abstained? Labour would then go after them saying, you are propping
:09:38. > :09:41.up the Conservatives on this measure. That would not play well
:09:42. > :09:48.amongst many in Scotland in the Holyrood election campaign. Thanks,
:09:49. > :09:55.but do not go away, we will be back with you later on. Andy Maciver,
:09:56. > :10:00.this is an odd one. You will vote against what we have in Scotland
:10:01. > :10:06.because we're worried about... I understood something about wages?
:10:07. > :10:09.Yes, if employers consider this to be a UK wide issue, then the premium
:10:10. > :10:15.wages that Scottish workers are on a Sunday would no longer be there. If
:10:16. > :10:18.you want to create a case for being able to vote on everything because
:10:19. > :10:21.of the impact it has on Scotland, you could probably create that case
:10:22. > :10:25.if you wanted, because it will always be some impact somewhere,
:10:26. > :10:29.whether it is finance or some theoretical impact. But this is
:10:30. > :10:33.stretching it quite far, I think, to vote on this. I think the impact is
:10:34. > :10:38.very marginal, possibly zero, quite speculative. This thing that Alex
:10:39. > :10:42.Salmond used to say, that he was quite happy not to vote on
:10:43. > :10:46.English... That is the window publicly, is it? That has gone. That
:10:47. > :10:49.has been replaced by politics and political imperative. David is
:10:50. > :10:52.correct that this is a political move, no question whatsoever.
:10:53. > :10:54.The Conservatives are leading the debate in the Holyrood chamber
:10:55. > :10:57.today, focusing on the delayed payment of Common Agricultural
:10:58. > :11:02.The EU subsidy is designed to act as a safety net for farmers
:11:03. > :11:04.and crofters by supplementing their main business income.
:11:05. > :11:07.And the money is allocated by the Scottish Government.
:11:08. > :11:10.But the payments have been affected by major issues due to the IT system
:11:11. > :11:24.Alex Fergusson, the conservative spokesperson for Rural Affairs
:11:25. > :11:29.is on his feet, let's cross over to the chamber.
:11:30. > :11:34.I hope this time the Cabinet Secretary can deliver. Yesterday's
:11:35. > :11:39.announcement followed the recent trend of last-minute announcements
:11:40. > :11:42.that a cynic might think was designed purely to deflect growing
:11:43. > :11:49.criticism. First we had the announcement of a 20 billion
:11:50. > :11:56.last-ditch loan fund, after a beating a promise to be tempestuous.
:11:57. > :11:58.And last week after debate about the timing of payments, the Cabinet
:11:59. > :12:04.secretary announced he would make national funds available to make
:12:05. > :12:09.sure that these payments where the' sixes of a million, would be paid in
:12:10. > :12:13.March as usual. And now the Cabinet Secretary has waved his magic wand
:12:14. > :12:17.and found the money from national funds to deflect this growing crisis
:12:18. > :12:23.once again. No wonder the still cared was able once again to smile
:12:24. > :12:28.again in the Chamber, which was nice to see after weeks of growing and
:12:29. > :12:31.justified criticism. And it is as well that his colleague Mr Swinney
:12:32. > :12:39.appears to have such deep pockets when it is expedient to do so.
:12:40. > :12:41.However, this opportune announcement may deflect immediate criticism but
:12:42. > :12:47.it will not make the underlying problems disappear. And we need to
:12:48. > :12:52.look at how we have arrived at this sorry state of affairs. That was
:12:53. > :12:56.back in the 11th of June 2014 that the Cabinet secretary made the
:12:57. > :13:00.announcement on how the new support system would operate in Scotland.
:13:01. > :13:03.And it was in many ways a momentous announcement because it moved us
:13:04. > :13:10.away from a support system based largely on productivity to one based
:13:11. > :13:14.on area alone. Which in Scotland, which he defied % of land is
:13:15. > :13:20.classified as less favoured, presents no small challenge. -- 85%.
:13:21. > :13:22.And the broader shift away from support payments in the south and
:13:23. > :13:28.east of the country towards the north and the West. It truly great
:13:29. > :13:31.challenge indeed. And thanks to the eminently sensible decision of the
:13:32. > :13:35.UK Government to negotiate Scotland's ability to design and
:13:36. > :13:38.implement a CAP support system tailor-made to Scottish conditions,
:13:39. > :13:44.the responsibility for that system they squarely with the Scottish
:13:45. > :13:49.Government from day one. Later, if I may. How to best mitigate against
:13:50. > :13:53.the most averaging impact of these reforms have been this a bit of
:13:54. > :13:56.intense discussion, debate and consultation over many preceding
:13:57. > :14:00.months, and they continued right up to the 59th minute of the 11th hour
:14:01. > :14:03.as various sectors within the agricultural industry made their
:14:04. > :14:08.case for special considerations. I recall meeting with the Cabinet
:14:09. > :14:14.secretary to discuss the concerns of the beef breeding sector on the eve
:14:15. > :14:17.of the announcement. Final decisions were being made at the very last
:14:18. > :14:23.minute. The eventual outcome as detailed by the announcement in June
:14:24. > :14:27.2014 was generally thought to be a genuine effort to please everyone.
:14:28. > :14:32.As the Cabinet secretary himself did at the time, fitting square pegs
:14:33. > :14:35.into round holes. On the problem of trying to please everyone, as I said
:14:36. > :14:39.at the time, is that you can end up pleasing practically no one. That is
:14:40. > :14:42.pretty much what seems to have happened when you look at where we
:14:43. > :14:48.are today. Because despite yesterday's announcement, the whole
:14:49. > :14:52.regime is in disarray. It is an unfortunate situation that remains
:14:53. > :14:58.100% of the Scottish Government's meeting. I'm grateful to him for
:14:59. > :15:04.giving way. I wonder if at this moment he would specify the bits of
:15:05. > :15:08.the inference that were put in place by the Cabinet secretary that he
:15:09. > :15:11.would have done differently? I am coming to that, because we do not
:15:12. > :15:14.need to look any further than the new IT system that the Cabinet
:15:15. > :15:18.secretary commissioned to operate the new regime to find out. And the
:15:19. > :15:22.warnings were there for all to see from the moment the single
:15:23. > :15:26.application form window for applications opened in March 20 15.
:15:27. > :15:31.We now know that industry experts were issuing warnings about the
:15:32. > :15:35.likely problems in mid-2014, but the Government had other priorities on
:15:36. > :15:39.its mind at that particular time. From the outset, those trying to use
:15:40. > :15:42.the online application system reported extreme difficulties,
:15:43. > :15:44.describing it as unfit for purpose and totally flawed in many respects.
:15:45. > :15:51.I vividly recall being taken through that process, and could only agree
:15:52. > :15:55.with one person's frustrated assessment that would be far better
:15:56. > :15:58.to revert to a paper-based application process, something I
:15:59. > :16:03.would have considered doing, which is of course what later record. That
:16:04. > :16:05.is exactly what the UK Government did. An action that has them much
:16:06. > :16:11.derided by the Cabinet secretary, but which resulted in farmers south
:16:12. > :16:14.of the border being furnished with paper forms preloaded with the
:16:15. > :16:19.previous year's information, enabling both applications and
:16:20. > :16:21.payments to be made on time. Furthermore, that delay allowed
:16:22. > :16:25.technicians to get on with building a system which I believe is now fit
:16:26. > :16:29.for purpose and ready to receive 2016 applications. That is a
:16:30. > :16:33.sensible plan B, and it appears that the Scottish Government did not have
:16:34. > :16:36.one. Every time the Cabinet secretary was challenged about these
:16:37. > :16:40.problems, he repeated that the changes here in Scotland were really
:16:41. > :16:45.complex, and the staff are working around the clock to overcome the
:16:46. > :16:49.difficulties. And I'm sure they did, I do not doubt that. And yes, it was
:16:50. > :16:53.a complex system, but I repeat that it was and still is a system
:16:54. > :16:57.designed, in fermented and signed off by the Cabinet secretary alone.
:16:58. > :16:59.The responsibility for both it and its values rest with him and him
:17:00. > :17:01.alone. The Conservatives' Rural Affairs
:17:02. > :17:03.spokesperson Alex Fergusson speaking And we'll be back to hear
:17:04. > :17:08.from the Government in that debate Now I'm joined from
:17:09. > :17:13.the Scottish Parliament's lobby by Stewart Maxwell from the SNP,
:17:14. > :17:15.Labour's Jackie Baillie and the Liberal Democrats'
:17:16. > :17:29.Liam McArthur. The figures that emerged today, can
:17:30. > :17:33.I read from the White Paper that the Scottish Government produced during
:17:34. > :17:43.the defendant 's referendum campaign? It said," by independents
:17:44. > :17:49.in 2016/2017, Scotland's deficit is forecast to have fallen to 2.5% and
:17:50. > :17:54.3.2% of GDP." Would you like to comment? If you're saying that every
:17:55. > :17:58.single and it's got the estimate that while price is wrong, I would
:17:59. > :18:02.agree with you. Certainly, we got it wrong. The First Minister has been
:18:03. > :18:04.clear on that. But the UK Government, the Department of
:18:05. > :18:10.energy, said it would be even higher. There is a world crisis in
:18:11. > :18:14.terms of the oil industry, nobody is denying that. And of course it has
:18:15. > :18:19.also hit here in Scotland. The fact remains that the underlying Scottish
:18:20. > :18:23.economy is fundamentally strong. The problem with that argument is that
:18:24. > :18:28.you now say, we only ever said oil was a bonus, the underlying economy
:18:29. > :18:30.is strong. But as reflected in that quote I gave you, every single
:18:31. > :18:35.forecast of Scotland's economy and fiscal situation that the SNP
:18:36. > :18:43.produced during the referendum campaign included oil at $113 per
:18:44. > :18:46.barrel. You did not say, here is our position without oil and user
:18:47. > :18:51.position with oil, as in that quote I gave you, you included all the oil
:18:52. > :18:55.money. I'm sorry, we made it very clear that oil was a bonus, and are
:18:56. > :18:59.fundamentally the Scottish economy excluding oil was roughly in line
:19:00. > :19:05.with the rest of the UK. But the fact is, the UK Prime Minister said
:19:06. > :19:10.that if we voted no, that would be a ?200 billion oil bonanza. Perhaps he
:19:11. > :19:14.should come and apologise on your programme. The fact is everybody got
:19:15. > :19:18.this wrong in terms of estimates of oil price. It was a prediction, we
:19:19. > :19:23.got it wrong and everybody else did, that is a fact. But the fundamental
:19:24. > :19:29.position that the Scottish economy is fundamentally strong, we have
:19:30. > :19:32.seen a ?6 billion growth in onshore revenues. The fact is it is a strong
:19:33. > :19:37.economy and we should be pleased about that at the same time
:19:38. > :19:42.recognising the difficulties. Jackie Baillie, it was an understandable
:19:43. > :19:45.error. Quite simply the SNP misled the people of Scotland in advance of
:19:46. > :19:49.the referendum. The figures published today tell us that not
:19:50. > :19:54.only would I deficit have doubled, but we would have been facing ?15
:19:55. > :20:00.billion of cuts. In perspective, that is more than the entirety of
:20:01. > :20:03.the health budget for Scotland. You say misled. They got it wrong.
:20:04. > :20:07.Stewart Maxwell has accepted that. It is a bit much to say the misled
:20:08. > :20:12.people. You did not know the oil price was going to crash anymore
:20:13. > :20:14.than they did. I think everybody was saying that the instability of oil
:20:15. > :20:18.prices is something that has featured in the past, there was
:20:19. > :20:24.always a deficit because Scotland then and now Angeli spends more than
:20:25. > :20:28.we raising revenue, so that was good to be a deficit. But the scale of
:20:29. > :20:31.the deficit now is double what they imagined it would be. The
:20:32. > :20:33.consequences of that for people would have been the closure of
:20:34. > :20:40.hospitals and schools, devastating cuts. That is not nonsense. This
:20:41. > :20:46.Government cut ?500 million from the budget. They are now talking about
:20:47. > :20:54.cutting... They would have had to cut ?15 billion budget. Liam
:20:55. > :20:58.McCarthy, can we see you? The other side of this, whether Scottish
:20:59. > :21:02.Government has a point, is things have changed since the 1980s,
:21:03. > :21:10.haven't they? Because actually revenues in Scotland per capita
:21:11. > :21:15.good, both most areas of the UK apart from the South-East of
:21:16. > :21:18.England. He suggested that have reaped been facing the prospect of
:21:19. > :21:22.an independent Scotland in two weeks, the finances of the newly
:21:23. > :21:27.independent nation would have been fairly ruinous. Whether or not it is
:21:28. > :21:35.misled, what is evident from the figures today is that the Scottish
:21:36. > :21:38.Government got this badly wrong. Anybody who assert that can predict
:21:39. > :21:41.with great confidence for the oil price will be going forward needs to
:21:42. > :21:46.be treated with a degree of scepticism. But Jackie Baillie is
:21:47. > :21:50.absolutely right. We passed a budget in this parliament a couple of weeks
:21:51. > :21:55.back with ?500 million of cuts for local authorities. Had we had to
:21:56. > :21:59.contend with the sort of Blackhall in the middle of our finances
:22:00. > :22:01.presented through these figures, those decisions for local
:22:02. > :22:08.authorities up and down the country would have been considerably worse.
:22:09. > :22:19.Annabel Goldie will stop body make of these Figures? I'm not alone in
:22:20. > :22:22.breathing a sigh of relief at Scotland rejected to vote for
:22:23. > :22:27.independence. I remember taking part in debates before the referendum and
:22:28. > :22:34.I remember saying that I thought the illustration offered by the SNP
:22:35. > :22:36.about that first year of an independent Scotland's finances were
:22:37. > :22:40.grossly overestimated revenues and dangerously ambitious at minimising
:22:41. > :22:45.expenditure. And the chickens have come home to roost. What we have to
:22:46. > :22:50.accept is that Scotland has a deficit of about ?15 billion at the
:22:51. > :23:00.moment. In terms of our GDP, that is about 10% of our GDP. The rest of
:23:01. > :23:04.the UK, it is 4.9% of GDP deficit. What it makes clear is that when we
:23:05. > :23:08.said in challenging economic times there is strength in the partnership
:23:09. > :23:13.of the United Kingdom, that is being read large and reaffirmed and
:23:14. > :23:16.becoming clear for all to see. People are heaving a sigh of relief
:23:17. > :23:23.that they did not fall for that prospect as was put before us back
:23:24. > :23:28.in 2014. You mentioned chickens, you're leading the debate in
:23:29. > :23:31.agriculture. Listen to Alex Ferguson there, OK, a computer has gone
:23:32. > :23:39.wrong, why is that the fault of the Government? Government IT systems,
:23:40. > :23:45.whether run by Tories of our Scottish Nationalist or labour are
:23:46. > :23:52.with the disaster. -- are always a disaster. It is twofold. Firstly,
:23:53. > :23:57.yes, computer systems may play up, but you have to have available a
:23:58. > :24:00.reserve plan. In the second aspect is, we are talking about people who
:24:01. > :24:04.in the main are not wealthy, not affluent. We are talking about
:24:05. > :24:10.farmers struggling to make ends meet. I understand that, but the
:24:11. > :24:13.point is that Government IT systems are notorious, it is a bit rich to
:24:14. > :24:18.say it is the fault of the SNP Government. As you know that having
:24:19. > :24:24.NHS IT systems in England have gone disastrously wrong. Yes, but if you
:24:25. > :24:27.let makes when the final part of my point, we're dealing with what I
:24:28. > :24:37.might call a client caught out there. -- a client caught. They have
:24:38. > :24:41.been expending money on feet, on bedding, other forms of agricultural
:24:42. > :24:45.activity. They need money to comment. The Scottish Government
:24:46. > :24:48.should have, the moment it realised the system was going off the rails,
:24:49. > :24:52.they should have stepped in with a workable alternative to minimise the
:24:53. > :24:57.financial worry and difficulty for our farmers, and they did not do
:24:58. > :25:04.that. If we can get by ground to Stewart Maxwell, would you like to
:25:05. > :25:10.answer that point? You should have acted earlier. Let's put it in
:25:11. > :25:14.perspective. Payments have to be owned by the end of June. Over half
:25:15. > :25:19.of farmers and crofters have had payments, and the governed as a
:25:20. > :25:21.poster will be a ?200 million package of advance payments for
:25:22. > :25:26.those who have not yet received their payments by the end of March.
:25:27. > :25:32.The garment has stepped in. It is making sure our agricultural sector
:25:33. > :25:36.is protected. The fact is more than half of already received payments,
:25:37. > :25:42.and those who have not will be able to access this ?200 million of
:25:43. > :25:48.advance payments. The Government is doing the right thing and protecting
:25:49. > :25:52.the agricultural sector. Liam McArthur, what is wrong with what
:25:53. > :25:59.Stewart has set? There might be delayed, but these things happen. I
:26:00. > :26:02.will not hold Stewart Maxwell responsible for this, but the
:26:03. > :26:06.difficulty is it is at least three or four much months late in
:26:07. > :26:10.happening. People have been told since last summer that everything
:26:11. > :26:14.would be OK, payments would go out in December and most would have the
:26:15. > :26:16.appearance by the end of January. Nobody saw how that would be
:26:17. > :26:26.possible with an IT system showing signs of fragility from the get go.
:26:27. > :26:30.Annabel is right. With no plan B, in relation to payments out the border
:26:31. > :26:32.there was, meaning that farmers south of the border had been
:26:33. > :26:38.receiving payments in a timely fashion. Richard was too busy
:26:39. > :26:44.criticising poetical opponents and farmers for throwing bricks before
:26:45. > :26:47.he finally realised this was utterly unsustainable, that rural economies
:26:48. > :26:56.were being starved of invaluable funding. ?300 million of funding.
:26:57. > :26:59.Jackie Baillie, I can see that it is your job to oppose, that this is
:27:00. > :27:06.almost normal with Government IT systems. It has happened in the NHS.
:27:07. > :27:10.Balmer care, the date went online, did not work because the IT systems
:27:11. > :27:23.did not work. It seems to happen with Government. --. ObamaCare. The
:27:24. > :27:28.issue is, Government should anticipate this. Just as you are
:27:29. > :27:37.describing failures in IT systems, they should have had and the' a
:27:38. > :27:41.back-up. Every time it was raised in the Chamber, we were reassured that
:27:42. > :27:44.the Government was on the case, now we find months later they have not
:27:45. > :27:48.been, and it had been pushed into doing something because we are
:27:49. > :27:49.approaching an election. I think farmers deserve much better than
:27:50. > :27:51.that. Back to the chamber now,
:27:52. > :27:54.where the Conservatives have been calling for an independent inquiry
:27:55. > :27:56.into problems with payments of the Common Agricultural
:27:57. > :27:59.Policy fund to farmers. Richard Lochhead, the Rural Affairs
:28:00. > :28:14.Secretary is responding now Her decisions here in Scotland,
:28:15. > :28:19.supported by this Parliament, added more complexity on top of all that.
:28:20. > :28:24.The timescale forgetting those decisions and lamented was very
:28:25. > :28:30.tight indeed. For the first pillar of policy, Derek payments, the EE
:28:31. > :28:34.you did not adopt systems before the scheme is due to start, and the
:28:35. > :28:38.detailed rules were later than that. For the second pillar, the situation
:28:39. > :28:42.is even worse. It should have started on the 1st of January 20 14.
:28:43. > :28:46.Europe had not set out all the rules by then. It is only because of
:28:47. > :28:50.transition arrangements which the Scottish Government fought for that
:28:51. > :28:55.we avoided a disastrous gap between programmes. In light of this
:28:56. > :28:59.timescale we were clear with stakeholders that extra policy
:29:00. > :29:04.details that they were asking for, and in some cases insisting upon,
:29:05. > :29:10.would inevitably affect payments to some degree. And at least in the
:29:11. > :29:15.first year. In the first year we have a new system invented for the
:29:16. > :29:21.first time, and many one-off tasks to undertake. We knew undertaking
:29:22. > :29:25.the timescale was a tall order, but we were determined and I said this
:29:26. > :29:27.at the time, to get payments out as early as possible within the
:29:28. > :29:34.seven-month payment timetable window that Europe lays down. We all knew
:29:35. > :29:42.the risks, something the industry itself acknowledges, and we all
:29:43. > :29:45.agreed the risks were worth taking. In light of his point about the
:29:46. > :29:50.seven-month payment timetable. Will he confirm today that every crofting
:29:51. > :29:57.former across Scotland will receive their full CAP payment before the
:29:58. > :29:59.30th of June timetable? Clearly that is absolutely our determination
:30:00. > :30:04.because you want to avoid fines from liver, and if we do not have 95%
:30:05. > :30:09.payments paid we are subject to fines. -- avoid fines from Europe.
:30:10. > :30:15.We will make every effort to avoid that. In terms of the risks worth
:30:16. > :30:20.taking. We agree these risks were worth taking, but having said that,
:30:21. > :30:23.I completely understand the difficult position farmers and
:30:24. > :30:26.crofters find themselves in due to the poor prices and extreme weather
:30:27. > :30:31.we have experienced in recent months. I said last year that while
:30:32. > :30:35.we do have it impossible to get payments out as soon as possible,
:30:36. > :30:38.this was not a normal year and farmers should be prepared for that.
:30:39. > :30:44.I'll discuss these issues with the banks briefly. Does he think that
:30:45. > :30:51.having a better weather and better prices the shambles of the IT system
:30:52. > :30:55.would be more acceptable? Order! If you speak to any farmer and crofter
:30:56. > :30:58.crosscut and you will tell them they are serious issues and you may find
:30:59. > :31:02.it a laughing matter, but there are many businesses suffering right now
:31:03. > :31:09.because of these issues. We happen working tirelessly. We started
:31:10. > :31:14.making first instalment in December. By now we have in making payments to
:31:15. > :31:17.over 10,500 farmers and crofters in Scotland, worth 85% of their total
:31:18. > :31:24.payments complete with initial target of at least 70%. That is just
:31:25. > :31:30.around 59% farmers and crofters have been paid as of today. But we have
:31:31. > :31:35.not been progressing as anticipated. As I have said many times, this is
:31:36. > :31:38.deeply disappointing. Where we are at the moment is not good enough,
:31:39. > :31:42.and for that I did apologise to the industry. By the IT system is
:31:43. > :31:47.working, but not anywhere near as quickly as we all want. And I fully
:31:48. > :31:51.accept that. Under the EE rules, we have to complete detailed checks and
:31:52. > :31:54.every claim before we can authorise payments, and it is only after
:31:55. > :31:59.payments are made that we're reimbursed by the European Union.
:32:00. > :32:07.The IT system has to validate each and every claim against 400,000
:32:08. > :32:12.fields, and over 500 EU rules. Just think of that for a second. Every
:32:13. > :32:18.claim, 400,000 fields, over 500 EU rules. Officials are constantly
:32:19. > :32:25.having to improve the IHT we are using, and that Europe says we have
:32:26. > :32:28.to use to speed up cases. We have drafted extra staff into offices,
:32:29. > :32:34.and our teams up and working day and night. As I said before and say
:32:35. > :32:41.again today, Ministers believe we have to learn lessons. A new report
:32:42. > :32:44.will be produced in due course, and will support any subsequent enquiry
:32:45. > :32:49.in the future, but clearly that is a matter for the next Parliament as
:32:50. > :32:59.the NFC West president said himself quite rightly this morning.
:33:00. > :33:08.Getting Scotland divided into three payment regions has been a massive
:33:09. > :33:11.challenge. It was a problem in England with the last cap reform
:33:12. > :33:17.when it went disastrously wrong for them. I am told at this stage they
:33:18. > :33:21.are paid less than 4% of their businesses, less than 4% of their
:33:22. > :33:25.businesses. We are going through reforms they went through in 2005
:33:26. > :33:33.plus another set of reforms on top of that. Wales this time, could not
:33:34. > :33:37.find a model at all so they abandon the idea. In Scotland, many key
:33:38. > :33:40.players in the industry were insistent that there had to be three
:33:41. > :33:41.regions are not the two that the Scottish Government originally
:33:42. > :33:43.consulted upon. The Social Justice Secretary Alex
:33:44. > :33:45.Neil says the Scottish Government remains committed to ending gender
:33:46. > :33:47.inequality in Scotland, Yesterday - on International Women's
:33:48. > :33:52.Day - he was asked by fellow SNP MSP Christina McKelvie what ministers
:33:53. > :33:54.were doing to ensure women were properly represented in leading
:33:55. > :34:10.roles in the private As the member knows, in terms of
:34:11. > :34:17.public and private fund sector, we're doing everything we can to
:34:18. > :34:20.encourage gender balance and of course 50-50 by 2020 is a key part
:34:21. > :34:24.of the Government's strategy. Although B did not have the
:34:25. > :34:31.legislative power to enforce private sector organisations to engage in
:34:32. > :34:34.50-50, as a major user of private services, we are using whatever
:34:35. > :34:43.influence we can to try to encourage companies to do it and then reap the
:34:44. > :34:47.benefits of having 50-50 by 2020. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will
:34:48. > :34:51.agree with me not just about goals in public and private sectors but
:34:52. > :34:55.one of the main issues is still gender inequality pay gap and I
:34:56. > :35:00.wonder if he could give us an update that the Scottish Government has
:35:01. > :35:05.taken to close the gender pay gap. In the public sector, the main area
:35:06. > :35:09.is in relation to equal pay and local authorities and there are
:35:10. > :35:15.still 45 local authorities in Scotland who have not finally
:35:16. > :35:20.settled their claims. -- for or five. It is the Cabinet Secretary's
:35:21. > :35:23.responsibility to encourage them to complete the settlement of these
:35:24. > :35:26.claims as as soon as possible because I know in North Lanarkshire
:35:27. > :35:34.alone for example billable 4000 people, mainly women, is still
:35:35. > :35:39.outstanding and I think the time it has taken since the original equal
:35:40. > :35:43.pay act was passed and since the existing negotiations were held
:35:44. > :35:47.about 12 or 15 years ago, that there is no excuse now for any outstanding
:35:48. > :35:55.claims still to be settled in this day and age. I'm sure the Cabinet
:35:56. > :35:59.Secretary is as shocked as I am by the University College union's
:36:00. > :36:06.report highlighting the gender pay gap in their -- our colleges and
:36:07. > :36:10.universities. The worst one is the University of Highlands and Islands
:36:11. > :36:21.which shows male lecturers are paid ?18,000 more than their female
:36:22. > :36:24.equivalents. This is unacceptable in a publicly funded institution. What
:36:25. > :36:30.is the Cabinet Secretary going to do about it? Throughout the public
:36:31. > :36:32.sector, we want to see equal pay implemented including local
:36:33. > :36:38.authority sectors but also in the academic sector, both universities
:36:39. > :36:42.and colleges as well and what we will do is everything in our power
:36:43. > :36:46.to try and encourage and ensure that those funded through the public
:36:47. > :36:47.sector and taxpayer actually fulfil a requirement of equal pay for equal
:36:48. > :37:02.work. Back to the discussion about the
:37:03. > :37:08.figures. Let say we accept what Stewart Maxwell was saying about oil
:37:09. > :37:12.being a bonus, this idea that should Scotland vote to stay in the EU if
:37:13. > :37:15.Britain votes to leave and will have another independence referendum,
:37:16. > :37:19.this is going to become much more current again, isn't it, because we
:37:20. > :37:27.would need to have projections for what the real situations would be in
:37:28. > :37:30.a independent Scotland now. That is where people misjudge the link
:37:31. > :37:33.between the European referendum and a second independence referendum
:37:34. > :37:40.because the link is only present if the polling significantly changes in
:37:41. > :37:44.favour of a Yes vote here. It would be based on the currency issue,
:37:45. > :37:48.which is much more complicated now. Do we want to attach it to the pound
:37:49. > :37:53.if it is out of the EU? I don't think you could do that. Would we
:37:54. > :37:58.have to go into the year now if we were entering the youth from a point
:37:59. > :38:01.of being outside? But you are correct, I think we go from the
:38:02. > :38:05.point where the fiscal circumstances are vastly different in a second
:38:06. > :38:09.independence referendum campaign than they were in the first one so I
:38:10. > :38:14.think it is not quite as simple as just thinking pulling out of the EU
:38:15. > :38:19.means an independence referendum, it is a whole new set of circumstances
:38:20. > :38:23.to base judgments on. But if there's going to be a referendum or even a
:38:24. > :38:27.campaign for one on independence, shouldn't these things be discussed
:38:28. > :38:32.right now? What currency would Scotland be part of? What would the
:38:33. > :38:38.public think? How would the finance the deficit that has grown since the
:38:39. > :38:42.last one? The SNP knows these issues are the reasons that they lost.
:38:43. > :38:45.Fundamentally, that is why they lost the first one. You would think they
:38:46. > :38:49.would be discussing about now. My money as they're not discussing it
:38:50. > :38:54.because they don't think they will be holding a independence referendum
:38:55. > :38:58.any time soon. Whichever way people vote, I don't think it is on the
:38:59. > :39:01.Scottish Government or Nicola Sturgeon's radar to push for a
:39:02. > :39:06.second independence referendum soon which is going to cause internal
:39:07. > :39:11.problems in the party. I remember when Ross Finnie was agricultural
:39:12. > :39:17.minister and it was a big row about something in the water in the hills
:39:18. > :39:21.and he said to me after a programme, I supposed to go up and take samples
:39:22. > :39:30.every night or it's my fault? There is a bit of that this computer
:39:31. > :39:37.thing. Is he meant to get a Windows 10 manual and work out what is going
:39:38. > :39:47.on? IG solutions and Government don't work very well. -- IT. Any
:39:48. > :39:52.time something goes wrong with the Scottish Government, the opposition
:39:53. > :39:57.have to leap on it. I don't think it will be a lingering issue. They have
:39:58. > :39:58.to pursue the companies who are doing it.
:39:59. > :40:03.And now to Prime Ministers Questions.
:40:04. > :40:05.The Labour leader attacked David Cameron for his government's
:40:06. > :40:09.But the Prime Minister defended it, saying there were 480,000,
:40:10. > :40:12.fewer children living in workless households,
:40:13. > :40:14.because of his party's success with growing the economy.
:40:15. > :40:23.Mr Cameron said this was evidence of them tackling the problem.
:40:24. > :40:29.If there is more money is available to be spent on children's services,
:40:30. > :40:33.why are there another 500,000 children living in poverty because
:40:34. > :40:37.of the policies of this Government? If we really do have the strong
:40:38. > :40:43.economy that the Prime Minister claims, then why did the Chancellor
:40:44. > :40:48.warned last week, I quote, we may need to make further reductions. Who
:40:49. > :40:56.will these reductions follow on, the disabled? Pensioners? Women? Will he
:40:57. > :41:03.rule out attacking those groups? He will see the budget next week when
:41:04. > :41:06.the Chancellor who has an excellent record of stealing the nation's
:41:07. > :41:12.economy will stand up to give them but the gentleman just made some
:41:13. > :41:16.remarks about child poverty. Since 2010, there are 680,000 fewer
:41:17. > :41:22.workless households. Think about what that means. 680,000 households
:41:23. > :41:29.where someone is bringing home a wage, putting food on the table and
:41:30. > :41:34.paying less taxes. There are 40,000 fewer members were no member has
:41:35. > :41:42.ever worked -- fewer houses and 480,000 children fewer living in
:41:43. > :41:47.poverty households. This is about having a growing economy, increased
:41:48. > :41:53.childcare, things never delivered by Labour. The refugee crisis is the
:41:54. > :42:00.biggest crisis across Europe. As the Prime Minister ashamed that in a UK
:42:01. > :42:03.Government programme, trafficking victims were locked up without food
:42:04. > :42:09.and asylum seeking children were forced to sleep on concrete floors
:42:10. > :42:16.that patients with diarrhoea were denied access to showers and the
:42:17. > :42:22.woman was beaten at a detention centre. As the Prime Minister
:42:23. > :42:26.ashamed of this? I will look at the points he makes. I would save our
:42:27. > :42:29.asylum system is fair and Britain through the ages has given people
:42:30. > :42:35.asylum from torture and persecution. When it comes to the issue of
:42:36. > :42:39.resettling Syrian refugees, it was instructed at this week's European
:42:40. > :42:43.Council with the chart showing how many countries have actually settled
:42:44. > :42:49.Syrian refugees, Britain has done better than any other country except
:42:50. > :42:54.for Germany. 76% of the cost of a bottle of whiskey is taxed. Last
:42:55. > :42:58.year, the Government's 2% cut on duty increased revenue to the
:42:59. > :43:02.Treasury by ?102 million. Will he accept that one of our products is
:43:03. > :43:08.taxed too much and body join me and the Scotch Whisky Association and
:43:09. > :43:11.calling for a further 2% reduction? The Chancellor and I have
:43:12. > :43:17.consistently backed Scottish whiskey and it's vital industry but let me
:43:18. > :43:21.say this to him, on the day that the profit and loss account comes out
:43:22. > :43:27.for Scotland, you can see there is a ?15 billion gap that Scotland would
:43:28. > :43:34.face if it was outside the United Kingdom. I dread to think what
:43:35. > :43:39.taxation would have to be levied not just on whiskey, but petrol, work,
:43:40. > :43:43.income, Holmes. That's the prospect of life outside the native kingdom.
:43:44. > :43:48.That's why I'm so glad we voted to stay together. On Sunday we
:43:49. > :43:51.celebrated Mother's Day and yesterday, International Women's
:43:52. > :43:55.Day, and members working to celebrate women on both occasions.
:43:56. > :44:01.Why then has this Government introduced cuts to public services,
:44:02. > :44:08.child benefit and reductions in work-related benefits that have left
:44:09. > :44:11.mothers ?13 billion worse off? The one thing I share with the
:44:12. > :44:16.honourable lady is it was right to celebrate Mother's Day. I spent it
:44:17. > :44:23.with my mother but I think it said enough about her! It was a privilege
:44:24. > :44:25.to welcome to number ten is inspirational women from all walks
:44:26. > :44:31.of life to Mark International Women's Day I'm not saying the
:44:32. > :44:36.Government has solved all of these problems but we have more women in
:44:37. > :44:39.work, higher pay, lower taxes, better child care and better
:44:40. > :44:45.pensions and when it comes to the thing that Government needs to do,
:44:46. > :44:47.we're appointing more women to senior positions, public
:44:48. > :44:50.appointments. The honour system is now reflecting women. The pay gap is
:44:51. > :44:53.now at its lowest published level. Our Westminster correspondent
:44:54. > :45:11.David Porter has been joined It's the type of tropical heat which
:45:12. > :45:14.is wet and precipitates. It is Wednesday so we're going to talk
:45:15. > :45:17.about things that happened on Sunday, namely the Sunday trading
:45:18. > :45:27.Bill which is going for Commons this afternoon. Joining me are my guests,
:45:28. > :45:36.Lord Percy for the Liberal Democrats, Conservatives, the SNP.
:45:37. > :45:42.What is the SNP doing deciding what will be Westminster policy on an
:45:43. > :45:47.issue that doesn't affect Scotland? It does affect Scotland in terms of
:45:48. > :45:50.those boys in the retail sector, many of whom are on low pay and
:45:51. > :45:55.enjoy a Sunday premium for working on a Sunday and despite seeking
:45:56. > :45:58.assurances that will not be accorded, the Government has not
:45:59. > :46:01.been prepared to either devolve legislation to make sure that is set
:46:02. > :46:06.in statute or to put it on the face of its bill to we are protecting
:46:07. > :46:10.about 33% of retail workers who will be affected if this goes through.
:46:11. > :46:18.But not everyone in Scotland who works on a Sunday gets a premium.
:46:19. > :46:22.Many of them don't get that premium. This legislation would devolve power
:46:23. > :46:26.to local authorities in England and Wales. I repeat the question, why is
:46:27. > :46:31.the Scottish National Party getting involved? Because it could see about
:46:32. > :46:35.33% of people working in the retail sector lose money. We said we would
:46:36. > :46:38.come here and stand up for those in our society that need support.
:46:39. > :46:43.That's what we're doing. I don't see any inherent hypocrisy around that.
:46:44. > :46:48.If the Government was not recognising that, we could have done
:46:49. > :46:51.something. We ask for devolution, they rejected it. This is an issue
:46:52. > :46:54.of their own making. The issue is not about the SNP footing against
:46:55. > :47:02.this, it is about Conservatives voting against it. -- voting. Do you
:47:03. > :47:08.buy that argument, that if you can get your own MPs onside whatever the
:47:09. > :47:13.SNP did would be irrelevant? I don't think anyone buys this argument.
:47:14. > :47:16.This is just rank hypocrisy of the SNP. They just want a key grievance
:47:17. > :47:20.year between the people of England and Wales and the people of
:47:21. > :47:23.Scotland. They have a lack of Sunday trading laws in Scotland but are
:47:24. > :47:27.poking their nose into an England and Wales matter only, simply to
:47:28. > :47:33.cause grievance. There is no other reason. The pretence of the SNP that
:47:34. > :47:38.this is somehow protecting workers has just been laid bare by yourself,
:47:39. > :47:42.by your own survey, by suggesting that very few people in Scotland
:47:43. > :47:48.actually get this premium so it is complete nonsense. This is the SNP
:47:49. > :47:52.playing games, creating grievance where they shouldn't be. What they
:47:53. > :47:58.should be really -- what we should really be asking ourselves is why is
:47:59. > :48:04.there a ?15 billion deficit in Scotland for 2014, 2015? That is why
:48:05. > :48:09.the -- what they should be answering, why the people of
:48:10. > :48:13.Scotland have been let down. What if your ministers had been more
:48:14. > :48:19.accommodating with your own MPs, but you wouldn't have got into this? We
:48:20. > :48:22.are a broad church and I understand there may 20 Conservative MPs who
:48:23. > :48:27.might not support the Government. I will be supporting the Government
:48:28. > :48:30.but let's focus on at the issue is, the SNP don't want English words for
:48:31. > :48:33.English laws, they want to book their nose into areas that don't
:48:34. > :48:37.concern them and have breached their own promise to the Scottish people.
:48:38. > :48:41.They promised they would not interfere on a matter of principle
:48:42. > :48:47.on England and Wales matters only. In this case, even if it concerns
:48:48. > :48:51.the matter of paint -- colour of paint, they will pull their nose in.
:48:52. > :48:54.Are you happy this is common cause with the SNP when this does not
:48:55. > :49:01.affect Scotland as directly as many people would think would be an issue
:49:02. > :49:05.to campaign on? It is right to say that Sunday trading in Scotland is
:49:06. > :49:09.deregulated, it has been since 1994, but don't have to listen to us with
:49:10. > :49:13.regards to the effect of Scottish workers, listen to the trade union
:49:14. > :49:16.who have been getting representations from tens of
:49:17. > :49:19.thousands of their own members saying they will lose terms and
:49:20. > :49:23.conditions for working on a Sunday service is not a political thing but
:49:24. > :49:27.the two things that from this, the Conservatives on a majority so they
:49:28. > :49:32.cannot persuade their own backbenchers to vote for this, they
:49:33. > :49:37.won't get any legislation through. The SNP have try to do a deal with
:49:38. > :49:39.the Conservatives on this for the last few months. Angus Robertson
:49:40. > :49:43.said she would absolutely not vote for this legislation. It took them
:49:44. > :49:47.until late last night to see that they wouldn't you can draw from that
:49:48. > :49:51.that they're willing to protect English foxes when they said they
:49:52. > :49:56.would not board for fox hunting changes in England. They were not
:49:57. > :49:59.willing to protect shop workers. I think they have serious questions to
:50:00. > :50:06.answer about the games they are playing. You return from Canada
:50:07. > :50:11.early to take part in the sport. Sunday trading is enormous and
:50:12. > :50:19.Canada, isn't it? It depends what province you're in, I think, but it
:50:20. > :50:22.is a matter of principle here. In my constituency, Scottish workers in
:50:23. > :50:28.Asda and Tesco and other big shops might lose their Sunday premium.
:50:29. > :50:31.Asda have said they will lose its all I am standing up for shop
:50:32. > :50:36.workers. I only wish the Conservatives and SNP would have
:50:37. > :50:41.done the same. As far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned, that you
:50:42. > :50:45.have worries about Scottish workers if this becomes a UK wide that
:50:46. > :50:52.people will work for longer -- shop for longer on Sunday, they will lose
:50:53. > :50:59.payments? Someone who worked across the borders, it will not be affected
:51:00. > :51:03.by what Callan says, so constitutionally he is wrong on the
:51:04. > :51:09.basis of contractual requirements but it goes to a deeper issue. I
:51:10. > :51:13.voted on Sunday trading in the Scottish Parliament and at no stage
:51:14. > :51:17.did the SNP make any of those arguments there. I expect Ian is
:51:18. > :51:22.right, they started this process of Government with one possession and
:51:23. > :51:27.changed it when they saw another political opportunity but that is
:51:28. > :51:31.their possession, they said they would not vote on English issues,
:51:32. > :51:37.they do wish to raise grievance. My only problem is that at the moment
:51:38. > :51:42.it is shop workers they claim to defend. They didn't stab at this
:51:43. > :51:45.position when they knew that the facts then, and they didn't start
:51:46. > :51:49.when I was watching on this in the Scottish parliament so the rank
:51:50. > :51:57.hypocrisy from them is shameful. Sometimes an opposition party's duty
:51:58. > :52:02.is to oppose. Opposition to whom? On what basis of this being done? Shop
:52:03. > :52:06.workers would be dropped like a hot stone if it did not suit their
:52:07. > :52:11.constitutional purpose. What about public sector workers? What about
:52:12. > :52:19.binmen and the lorry drivers? What about nurses? The SNP are saying
:52:20. > :52:32.they want differentials. The cool about it -- they crow. How much are
:52:33. > :52:38.you worried this as seen on the wrong side of your argument? People
:52:39. > :52:48.would say Dewar propping up the Tories at Westminster. That wouldn't
:52:49. > :52:54.play well in the Holyrood election. The Tories are going to undermine
:52:55. > :52:58.people's pay and we have three political parties all taking the
:52:59. > :53:01.opportunity to attack the SNP. No one has a problem with anyone else
:53:02. > :53:08.watching honestly the Northern Irish MPs. We are taking our time, we have
:53:09. > :53:11.established, talked with retailers, talked with the Government to see if
:53:12. > :53:16.they would make concessions to allay the fears and we have done that and
:53:17. > :53:19.the Government has refused to meet what really quite reasonable
:53:20. > :53:24.suggestions from the SNP at around this. If anyone is to blame for
:53:25. > :53:27.this, it is the Government. We have tried to protect Scottish workers
:53:28. > :53:32.and we have failed because the Government stopped us. How damaging
:53:33. > :53:39.be if the Government was defeated on this this afternoon? It is right
:53:40. > :53:43.that the viewers she once and for all the rank hypocrisy of the SNP.
:53:44. > :53:50.This is a game that the SNP are playing. This is not the position of
:53:51. > :53:54.the SNP, the position of the SNP is to play games. They want to create
:53:55. > :54:03.grievance where there is none. The ad in charge of Scotland, there is a
:54:04. > :54:07.?15 billion deficit for 2014, to -- 2015. That is where they should be
:54:08. > :54:12.focusing. Did you think you will win this afternoon? It looks like there
:54:13. > :54:16.is a significant rebellion on the Conservative backbenchers. There are
:54:17. > :54:21.a lot of people in England and Wales who do not want this to go through.
:54:22. > :54:23.But it is absolutely right. The SNP tonight after the general election
:54:24. > :54:28.and said they supported English word for English laws and that they would
:54:29. > :54:31.vote to bring down fox hunting changes that but will make
:54:32. > :54:36.equalising with Scotland. It is rank hypocrisy and they are playing with
:54:37. > :54:42.shop workers. Final answer from you, is this going to put the matter to
:54:43. > :54:46.that one way or another? No, because if the SNP carry on this position it
:54:47. > :54:52.will be for all workers but it is unclear if it will apply to workers
:54:53. > :54:59.across all sectors. They have said no, so it is purely political. Thank
:55:00. > :55:03.you. Somehow I think we can probably carry on until Sunday about talking
:55:04. > :55:10.about this issue but we can't. Back to you in the studio.
:55:11. > :55:22.What exactly is the Labour position on this? They're against it because
:55:23. > :55:32.what? They're against it generally speaking, it would appear. Iain
:55:33. > :55:36.Murray is going to vote obviously. It is not the position Labour are
:55:37. > :55:41.taking because he is voting on it. Some of them have at times. Some
:55:42. > :55:50.would argue it is in their interest not to alert because they reject the
:55:51. > :56:01.premise. They simply reject the premise. I don't think all of them
:56:02. > :56:05.could. There are arguing it is not good for shop workers. Ian Murray
:56:06. > :56:08.outlined that Asda have said shop workers in Scotland could lose out
:56:09. > :56:12.as a result of this. I don't think there is any certainty about this. I
:56:13. > :56:17.think he's arguing that shop workers and England could as well because
:56:18. > :56:25.they might be forced to do... They could be forced to work Sundays,
:56:26. > :56:29.yes. I think he's arguing to a degree on a Scottish bases. I think
:56:30. > :56:32.he is seeing his constituents in Edinburgh could also lose out
:56:33. > :56:38.because if they work in a big store, they may take a duty position. If
:56:39. > :56:43.the Government losers, is it an important decision? In the grand
:56:44. > :56:46.scheme of things I don't think it is going to be something we will
:56:47. > :56:52.remember. It is less about the issue and what about the fact the SNP are
:56:53. > :56:54.voting on it. When we look at it as journalists and political
:56:55. > :56:58.commentators, what we will remember is not the issue but the fact the
:56:59. > :57:02.SNP voted on it is another interesting constitutional matter.
:57:03. > :57:11.It's maybe not true if you're working in M True but what the
:57:12. > :57:15.opposition politicians have said is that the Tories have a majority so
:57:16. > :57:17.if they could quell in a billion on their own backbenchers they could
:57:18. > :57:22.push this through anyway so that is a valid point. There is opposition
:57:23. > :57:29.to this that is not about sticking up shop workers. Stuff that was
:57:30. > :57:37.abandoned in Scotland as Iain Murray said in 1984. Mainly opposition from
:57:38. > :57:42.Tory MPs who are going to vote against the Government on it for
:57:43. > :57:46.religious reasons. It looks like it is not going to go through and they
:57:47. > :57:47.will have to wait until we have a more solid majority to return to.
:57:48. > :57:51.You can keep up with the latest debates from Holyrood on the BBC's
:57:52. > :57:56.I'll be back this weekend on BBC One with Sunday Politics.