:00:22. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: The heat is on
:00:27. > :00:32.as arguments rage about the site of new coal power plant in North
:00:32. > :00:39.Ayrshire. New leader but same old Tories? We look at how the Scottish
:00:39. > :00:43.Tories plan to move forward with the Ruth Davidson.
:00:43. > :00:47.And Scottish teachers plan to walk out on strike for the first time in
:00:47. > :00:56.25 years. The UK Border agency roared rages
:00:56. > :01:00.for the third day in a role. -- a row.
:01:00. > :01:09.First, plans to build a new coal- fired power station in North
:01:09. > :01:12.Ayrshire. The council have received a record 20,000-plus objections. I
:01:12. > :01:22.am joined by our environment correspondent, David Mellor. Good
:01:22. > :01:22.
:01:23. > :01:27.afternoon. It was the background. - - gave us.
:01:27. > :01:30.What is being advocated is a large coal-fired power station.
:01:30. > :01:34.Environmental campaigners argue that it would be a travesty for
:01:34. > :01:40.Scotland to build a new coal-fired power station at a time when the
:01:40. > :01:45.country is working hard to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions in a
:01:45. > :01:51.bid to meet its legally binding climate change targets. So this has
:01:51. > :01:58.proved to be something of a battle royal between environmentalists and
:01:58. > :02:01.the company behind the proposal, Ayrshire POWER. It argues that it
:02:01. > :02:08.is using carbon capture and storage technology to minimise the
:02:08. > :02:11.greenhouse gas is being pumped into the atmosphere. To start with,
:02:11. > :02:16.around a quarter of the Co2 emissions would be captured. That
:02:16. > :02:19.would rise in the years ahead. The environmentalists do not buy this
:02:19. > :02:24.argument. They say we should not be building any more coal-fired power
:02:24. > :02:33.stations. We are waiting on the decision from the council. Can you
:02:33. > :02:37.talk us through what might happen? Councillors began meeting at around
:02:37. > :02:43.2pm. We expect the meeting to be fairly swift in reaching a
:02:43. > :02:51.conclusion. They are, as you mentioned, being encouraged to
:02:51. > :02:55.reject the proposal from Ayrshire Power. If there is a public inquiry,
:02:55. > :03:00.it will bounce back to Scottish ministers who will ultimately have
:03:00. > :03:10.to make a decision. Whatever happens today, the company say they
:03:10. > :03:12.will still fight on. They say that the opportunities for Ayrshire are
:03:13. > :03:19.too big and too important to give up that fight.
:03:20. > :03:26.I understand we have some news from Aberdeenshire about carbon capture
:03:26. > :03:34.there? Yes. It is absolutely crucial of Scotland is to meet its
:03:34. > :03:38.climate change targets. It allows - - carbon capture allows power
:03:38. > :03:45.generators to capture the emissions and store them beneath the sea. We
:03:45. > :03:51.had been expecting proposals to be implemented on an industrial scale
:03:51. > :04:01.at the Long Gannet power station. Those proposals will not be
:04:01. > :04:02.
:04:02. > :04:07.supported, largely because of cost. Attention now focuses on Peterhead
:04:07. > :04:17.and the gas fired power station there. An agreement has been made
:04:17. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:26.with Shell. And a great -- a great deal of enthusiasm and optimism
:04:26. > :04:28.from that programme. The message from the Scottish government is
:04:29. > :04:31.that we have to get on with developing the technology and the
:04:31. > :04:35.UK Government has to come up with funding soon.
:04:35. > :04:38.Thank you for that. We will be back with you later if we hear any
:04:38. > :04:40.breaking news. The Scottish Tories have a new
:04:40. > :04:45.leader in the shape of Ruth Davidson. A little over six months
:04:45. > :04:49.ago it would have been almost impossible for the former
:04:49. > :04:55.journalist to become party boss. Her decision to stand in the
:04:55. > :05:00.contest was greeted with great surprise. Many members obviously
:05:01. > :05:04.took fright at Murdo Fraser's plan to ditch the party name. Ms
:05:04. > :05:08.Davidson insists that the party will now reunited. I a leadership
:05:08. > :05:13.election is now the four -- is exactly the form where people will
:05:13. > :05:20.put forward their ideas of where they want the party to go. We do
:05:20. > :05:23.not have an electoral college, it is one member one vote. I came
:05:23. > :05:28.through as the leader of the direction the party wants to going.
:05:28. > :05:32.The party will come together now, because that is what parties do
:05:32. > :05:36.after elections such as this. I am joined in the Garden Lobby by
:05:36. > :05:43.John Lamont, Ruth Davidson's campaign manager, and by Alex
:05:43. > :05:50.Johnstone, a Murdo Fraser supporter. Thank you for joining me. Firstly,
:05:50. > :05:55.John Lomond, Murdo Fraser said it was time to adapt or die. What are
:05:55. > :06:01.you going to do? Will you die under the new regime? Not at all. I am
:06:01. > :06:07.delighted that Ruth has been elected. We had a very lively and
:06:07. > :06:17.vigorous debate during the election. I am pleased that she came through
:06:17. > :06:18.
:06:18. > :06:20.that as the winner. The party is confident that the candidates will
:06:20. > :06:27.come together and the party will come together.
:06:27. > :06:34.By the Fraser pointed out that there is no future -- Murdo Fraser
:06:34. > :06:40.pointed out that there is no future for the party as it stands. It is
:06:40. > :06:43.perfectly common in any leader, such -- contest for the different
:06:43. > :06:51.candidates to express different views and then, when it is over, to
:06:51. > :07:01.come together. The challenge for the leader and all was who aspire
:07:01. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:11.to be elected is to ensure that as many people bought Conservative as
:07:11. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:19.possibly can. I am sure that all MSPs, all Conservatives, regardless
:07:19. > :07:25.of how they voted, will ensure that is their aim we all have. If John
:07:25. > :07:28.Lamont, speaking about Murdo Fraser's views and opinions, they
:07:28. > :07:33.were strong beliefs that something had to change.
:07:33. > :07:37.You were a supporter. I take it that you held those beliefs, too.
:07:37. > :07:44.How will you adapt to the current form of the party? I am a very
:07:45. > :07:47.loyal supporter of Murdo Fraser. This is one of the most vigorous
:07:47. > :07:54.and high profile public debates within a party ever in Scotland.
:07:54. > :07:59.What we got out of it was the respect of a great number of people.
:07:59. > :08:02.The result, which was a close one, was decisive. It decided that Ruth
:08:02. > :08:07.Davidson would be our next leader and that the party will, I assure
:08:07. > :08:12.you, pull together a run that leadership. We know that unity is
:08:12. > :08:18.key to success in politics. After a public debate, you will now see
:08:18. > :08:21.unity. It was a very close-fought thing and there is a great section
:08:21. > :08:27.of party members out there to believe that rebranding was the way
:08:27. > :08:32.forward. That is now not going to happen. How can you, as members,
:08:32. > :08:38.inhabit a disabled party? As I say, the result was close but it was
:08:38. > :08:44.decisive. I believe that Ruth's leadership will take us in a
:08:44. > :08:47.slightly different direction from Murdo Fraser's. It will be forward
:08:47. > :08:53.looking and evolutionary. We will be a party that is more effective
:08:53. > :08:57.than in the past. When you have these kind of discussions it is
:08:57. > :09:00.important that you take the electorate seriously. Although the
:09:00. > :09:04.electorate was limited to Conservatives, the participation
:09:04. > :09:08.rate was very high. We have consulted widely and included as
:09:08. > :09:12.many people as we can in the process, and we have a result. It
:09:13. > :09:16.may not be the result I was walking for but it is decisive.
:09:16. > :09:21.John Le Mans, Alex is saying that the process of change will be
:09:21. > :09:25.evolutionary. It has not worked under Annabel Goldie, who was, by
:09:25. > :09:31.all accounts, a very popular leader. How will it work under Ruth
:09:32. > :09:35.Davidson? How will you that -- how will you attract support?
:09:35. > :09:45.Conservative Party in Scotland understands it needs to change. All
:09:45. > :09:47.of the candidates understand the importance of us reconfiguring
:09:47. > :09:51.ourselves to make ourselves more attractive to the electorate.
:09:51. > :10:00.You tried that with Annabel Goldie but it simply did not work. I am
:10:00. > :10:03.not sure about that. Ruth Davidson has been very clear
:10:04. > :10:10.about the need for substantial change in our party. It is about a
:10:10. > :10:18.generational shift. It is the first time we have had a leader as young
:10:18. > :10:21.as Ruth. She has a huge mandate to move things forward. I am sure that
:10:21. > :10:24.her new team, once it is announced tomorrow, will be able to move
:10:24. > :10:28.forward and re-energised the party to make sure we are the electoral
:10:28. > :10:32.force that we need to be in Scotland.
:10:32. > :10:35.Alex Johnstone, the party is going to be re-energised - what do you
:10:35. > :10:39.want to see change in? There is a lot that has to change but this is
:10:39. > :10:41.not the time to discuss it. Rhys Davids in needs to be put in a
:10:41. > :10:47.position where she can take authority or the party and she will
:10:47. > :10:51.have my support in that. She is young, fresh and vigorous. In fact,
:10:51. > :10:56.I actually discovered that she is not much older than some of my
:10:56. > :10:59.children, always a hard experience for any man! She brings new energy
:10:59. > :11:02.and enthusiasm and a sense of direction, which I think she will
:11:02. > :11:08.stamp on the party in the months to come.
:11:08. > :11:10.Thank you very much. Let's discuss this with our
:11:10. > :11:17.political commentator for the afternoon, Hamish Macdonell. Good
:11:17. > :11:21.afternoon. What do you make of those points? The two diametrically
:11:21. > :11:28.opposed sides are coming together in a new Conservative Party - do
:11:28. > :11:33.you think they can come together? How can that be the case for people
:11:33. > :11:41.who are on -- who, last week, were on opposite sides of the party. It
:11:41. > :11:49.was a very divisive contest. Remember, we had one candidate who
:11:49. > :11:53.was going to disband the party and former new one. He won something
:11:53. > :11:57.like 40% of the votes cast. It was divisive and there are big issues
:11:57. > :12:05.here that cannot be swept under the carpet quickly. One of those issues
:12:05. > :12:09.was concerns about donors. One donor was on Newsnight on Monday
:12:09. > :12:13.and said he was going to put his donations on hold. Do you think
:12:13. > :12:18.that Ruth Davidson has the backing from the donors, from a large
:12:18. > :12:23.section of the membership who voted for Murdo Fraser? The party will
:12:23. > :12:27.continue to have donor's, and very powerful borders as well. I think
:12:27. > :12:32.that the Murdo Fraser's point was that he wanted to open up the party
:12:32. > :12:37.to get more donors and members in. Ruth Davison's job was to try to
:12:37. > :12:41.unite the people who have gone away saying, I do not like the way the
:12:41. > :12:48.party is going. She is trying to bring them back and bring the
:12:48. > :12:51.supporters back. It is a hard job. We were talking about how they
:12:51. > :12:55.could increase their support from their core support at the moment.
:12:55. > :12:59.Alex Johnstone was talking about evolutionary change, but that was
:12:59. > :13:07.attempted under Annabel Goldie, wasn't it? Yes, and it is difficult
:13:07. > :13:15.to see where that change will come from. Annabel Goldie was a popular
:13:15. > :13:18.leader. She ended up with one MP. That is the same number they have
:13:18. > :13:23.had for the past three might general elections in Scotland. The
:13:23. > :13:28.party is on its bedrock of support and a number of leaders and
:13:28. > :13:31.strategists have tried to lift it up. None has managed to do so. Ruth
:13:31. > :13:34.Davidson is tasked with that and I would be interested to see how she
:13:34. > :13:38.will achieve it. Thank you very much.
:13:38. > :13:42.In just over 20 years, the over- sixties will make up a third of
:13:42. > :13:47.Scotland's population. Delivering decent and affordable services to
:13:47. > :13:57.that group is a challenge to any government and it is the subject of
:13:57. > :14:01.a debate in Holyrood this afternoon. Let us go to the chamber now.
:14:01. > :14:05.Essential services are going to be important to shifting balances of
:14:05. > :14:09.care. I know, as a former occupational therapist, he will
:14:09. > :14:14.bring understanding and insight to this issue, which is particularly
:14:15. > :14:18.welcome. I absolutely well come the initiative announced by the
:14:18. > :14:21.minister, but I wonder whether it will address all the points and
:14:21. > :14:31.concerns that have been raised. If I would encourage him to make the
:14:31. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:43.scope as broad as possible. The second issue is the nature of re-
:14:43. > :14:52.
:14:52. > :14:55.able month teams -- re-ablement teams.
:14:55. > :14:59.Many councils have been investing in training for their staff to
:14:59. > :15:08.fulfil roles that the Government for seize up, yet not one of them
:15:08. > :15:14.has been involved in any way whatsoever. I do not want to think
:15:14. > :15:17.that is an oversight but, whatever the reason, I would be genuinely
:15:17. > :15:21.Gradel of the minister could consider that. The third issue is
:15:21. > :15:27.the change fund for all the peoples services. I think we would
:15:27. > :15:30.acknowledge that �70 million is but a small fraction of the �4.5
:15:30. > :15:35.billion spent on social care. The test will be in the change that
:15:35. > :15:44.that pot of money generates. There is some disquiet with the operation
:15:44. > :15:49.of the fund so far - concerns about substitution. One commentator said
:15:49. > :15:52.that the funds must not be spent as a way of providing existing
:15:52. > :15:56.services are spent by local authorities and the NHS board to
:15:56. > :16:00.plug existing funding gaps. There are concerns on the ground that
:16:00. > :16:04.that is happening. There are also concerns that the fund is not
:16:04. > :16:08.focused on prevention, which I think we all acknowledge is also
:16:08. > :16:12.the way forward to lower public spending and delivering out comes
:16:12. > :16:22.with something like only 18% of the spend identified currently as
:16:22. > :16:25.
:16:25. > :16:31.Perhaps even more worryingly, we hear that the change fund will end
:16:31. > :16:38.up having spent more than that. It would appear that only one the 7th
:16:38. > :16:42.of the fund has been spent in the first half of the year. Local
:16:42. > :16:47.authorities will be encouraged to spend the remaining money in the
:16:47. > :16:52.second half of the year. The concern is that it is about getting
:16:52. > :16:59.money out of the door quickly, rather than considering what it is
:16:59. > :17:03.best spent on. The minister will be aware of another challenge to
:17:03. > :17:08.helping people stay in the wrong homes and that is the apparent
:17:08. > :17:13.reduction in budget for aids and adaptations. Often very small
:17:13. > :17:18.pieces of equipment or an adjustment to a home is enough to
:17:18. > :17:22.give someone the independence they need to remain in their own home.
:17:22. > :17:32.Waiting times for these appear to be lengthening. Charges are being
:17:32. > :17:37.introduced. I know of a family that waited for over a year. Do you
:17:37. > :17:42.share the concerns I have that there has been at 25% cut in the
:17:42. > :17:47.budget to register a social landlords for housing adaptations?
:17:47. > :17:51.I am about to share with you are an example that happen within the
:17:51. > :17:55.context of a registered social landlords. A family had to wait for
:17:55. > :18:00.a year for fight will -- the vital assistance that resulted in the
:18:00. > :18:06.child having to be readmitted to hospital because the local
:18:06. > :18:10.authority was unable to provide it time late support in the way of
:18:10. > :18:16.adaptation. The minister will have the support of these benches if he
:18:16. > :18:23.can improve the situation. Finally, I want to address delayed discharge.
:18:23. > :18:28.This is an area I think we can all agree requires further action. She
:18:28. > :18:34.announced that she wanted to reduce delayed discharge to two weeks. I
:18:34. > :18:39.support her in that aspiration. But the problem is that having reached
:18:39. > :18:44.zero, following the successful plan implemented by the previous Labour
:18:44. > :18:48.administration and carried on by the SNP, we're now starting to see
:18:48. > :18:58.delayed discharge figures going the wrong way. Despite a promise made
:18:58. > :18:59.
:18:59. > :19:08.in this chamber by his predecessor, sure Robson, that waits of over six
:19:08. > :19:14.weeks would be zero, there were 96 people delayed within the last six
:19:14. > :19:22.months. You are watching Politics Scotland
:19:22. > :19:28.from the BBC. Still to come on the programme: I take full
:19:28. > :19:32.responsibility for my decisions and Brodie Clark must take full
:19:32. > :19:35.responsibility for his actions. Mounting pressure on Theresa May.
:19:35. > :19:42.The Home Secretary is forced to explain herself once again as the
:19:42. > :19:44.row over the relaxation of border controls continues.
:19:44. > :19:48.Scottish schools are facing the prospect of industrial action for
:19:48. > :19:55.the first time in almost 25 years. The EIS - the country's largest
:19:55. > :19:57.teaching union - will strike at the end of the month. The Scottish
:19:57. > :19:59.Secondary Teachers' Association is awaiting the result of its strike
:19:59. > :20:02.ballot. And the Association of Headteachers and Deputes have
:20:02. > :20:08.already voted for industrial action. Our reporter has been looking at
:20:08. > :20:12.why teachers are wanting to walk out the classrooms.
:20:12. > :20:17.This woman has been teaching for 14 years. She says she loves her job.
:20:17. > :20:21.Recently, she feels her profession has come under attack. That is why
:20:21. > :20:27.she has voted to strike. workload has gone through the roof
:20:27. > :20:33.of. We have had a pay freeze. We have seen an attack on our
:20:33. > :20:39.conditions. To now be in a position where we are being asked to pay
:20:39. > :20:49.more into our pension and work longer for less back, people just
:20:49. > :20:52.
:20:52. > :21:00.feel it is the final straw. last time teachers went on strike
:21:00. > :21:06.was the 1980s. How significant is this strike? There is concern about
:21:06. > :21:11.pensions. But there is a deeper sense. The EIS is now behaving much
:21:11. > :21:17.more like an ordinary trade union. In the 1980s, it was more of a
:21:17. > :21:23.professional association. In the 1980s, the strikes were about the
:21:23. > :21:29.status of education and policies. This forthcoming strike is more
:21:29. > :21:33.about pay and pensions. That is a striking change. Like a up -- like
:21:33. > :21:38.other public sector workers, teachers face the prospect of
:21:38. > :21:46.making higher pension contributions for a smaller payment upon
:21:46. > :21:51.retirement. Our teachers likely to get a better offer? A chance in a
:21:51. > :21:54.lifetime means that people and the public sector will have access to
:21:54. > :22:01.equality pensions which are not available to others and the private
:22:01. > :22:04.sector. The private sector are having to pay contributions towards
:22:04. > :22:10.the cost of these through their taxes. That is often a sore point
:22:10. > :22:17.for me any people. The EIS says its patience is being too it -- being
:22:17. > :22:23.tested. But how do parents feel? The world is on the verge of
:22:23. > :22:29.collapse. We don't need a striker. I think the situation must be dire
:22:29. > :22:33.if teachers feel that they need to strike. Pensions are reserved to
:22:33. > :22:38.Westminster. The Scottish Government says it agrees with the
:22:38. > :22:43.campaign of the EIS but is against a strike. I am hundred -- I am glad
:22:43. > :22:52.the understand our concerns. We have tried negotiating and it has
:22:52. > :22:57.got us know there. After almost 25 years, the EIS might be rusty about
:22:58. > :23:02.strikes, but they will have plenty of company it when the strike on
:23:02. > :23:09.the St Andrew's Day. I am joined now in the studio by
:23:09. > :23:15.Susan Quinn from the EIS. Why exactly do you want to go on strike
:23:15. > :23:20.on St Andrews Day? Pay, pensions or both? We do not want to go on
:23:20. > :23:29.strike, but we feel we have been forced into that position. The
:23:29. > :23:36.strikers about proposed changes to pensions. That is the bigger issue.
:23:36. > :23:40.As we saw in that report, it is the straw that broke the Kamal's back.
:23:40. > :23:45.A number of changes have taken place which have rarely challenged
:23:45. > :23:50.teachers in be saying years. have seen a lot of unrest in the
:23:50. > :23:57.public sector regarding pensions. We are hearing that the EIS are
:23:57. > :24:02.behaving like other trade unions. People and the private sector do
:24:02. > :24:06.not have these gold-plated pension pots. They are not gold-plated. The
:24:06. > :24:12.EIS and others feel for our colleagues within the private
:24:12. > :24:16.sector. We understand that their pensions are not what they should
:24:16. > :24:20.be. However, our pensions should not be brought down to a level just
:24:20. > :24:25.because there's are not good enough. They should get there has improved
:24:25. > :24:29.in order that they have a proper retirement. Pretty sure pension
:24:29. > :24:35.scheme in Scotland is one that is funded by teachers. We are
:24:35. > :24:39.taxpayers. We pay twice into it because we pay our wrong
:24:39. > :24:42.contributions and then we pay our own taxes on top of that. There is
:24:42. > :24:48.nothing in our proposals which suggest that our pension pot are
:24:48. > :24:58.not workable within themselves. We do not believe the proposed changes
:24:58. > :24:58.
:24:58. > :25:01.are about the and Saints -- on sustainability of our pensions.
:25:01. > :25:06.you not accept that since devolution the settlement teachers
:25:06. > :25:12.have received has been historically very good? The settlement teachers
:25:12. > :25:16.have received? We are currently in the middle of a two year pay freeze.
:25:16. > :25:22.We have a situation where our supply teachers are being paid less
:25:22. > :25:31.than they were six months ago. We're in a position where we
:25:31. > :25:35.negotiated 10 years ago with send the McCrone agreement -- within the
:25:35. > :25:40.McCrone agreement a pay settlement over a three-year period. Since
:25:40. > :25:45.then, what we have had has been in line with other public sectors. We
:25:45. > :25:52.have not had anything additional to that in the subsequent seven years
:25:52. > :25:57.from that point. That settlement was significant. Let's look at what
:25:57. > :26:05.the parents were saying. I was a primary pupil and remember the
:26:05. > :26:12.teachers' strikes in the 1980s. What do you say to parents whose
:26:12. > :26:18.children will suffer under these strikes? I also was a pupil at that
:26:18. > :26:23.time. We need to consider what people want from teachers. If the
:26:23. > :26:27.proposals go through it as they are, what we're will see will be
:26:27. > :26:32.teachers in the classroom for 68 years old. Teaching is a highly
:26:32. > :26:37.challenging job. Parents need to understand that in order to do the
:26:37. > :26:41.job well, they have to be properly motivated and properly supported.
:26:41. > :26:47.The difficulties we have our that if these proposals are forced
:26:47. > :26:54.through, teachers will become demotivated and there will be many
:26:54. > :26:58.older teachers in front of young classes. We have a position were we
:26:58. > :27:02.don't think that is in the best interests of education. We're
:27:02. > :27:06.trying to bring through young teachers. What we will see is a
:27:06. > :27:12.much older profession in the long run if these proposals go through.
:27:12. > :27:16.It is not just about our pensions. We have an educational argument for
:27:16. > :27:19.this as well. Thank you for coming in to speak to us.
:27:19. > :27:22.Concerns have been raised in the Scotland Bill Committee at Holyrood
:27:22. > :27:24.after a witness claimed UK ministers had told him they would
:27:24. > :27:27.not devolve corporation tax to Scotland. Dr Graham Gudgin, an
:27:27. > :27:29.economic adviser to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland,
:27:29. > :27:33.warned that if the Scottish Government continued to press for
:27:33. > :27:36.the powers, they could damage Northern Ireland's chances. This
:27:36. > :27:42.left the SNP questioning whether that means the end of the respect
:27:42. > :27:47.agenda. Here is a taster of what was discussed.
:27:47. > :27:52.It seems to me that the Scottish position is quite unlike Northern
:27:52. > :28:00.Ireland. It does not sure the weaknesses to the same extent.
:28:00. > :28:04.Reading Scottish documents, there is usually a claim about
:28:04. > :28:14.corporation tax. In the UK firmament, Scotland is pretty much
:28:14. > :28:21.
:28:21. > :28:29.an average region. The current coalition... My information, which
:28:29. > :28:33.I think is very reliable, is that a Tory lead coalition will not
:28:33. > :28:37.devolve corporation tax to Scotland under any circumstances. If
:28:37. > :28:42.Scotland keeps pressing this, it looks like the most likely outcome
:28:42. > :28:46.will be that they will retire from this altogether and Northern
:28:46. > :28:49.Ireland will not get it either. There is quite a responsibility on
:28:50. > :28:57.the Scottish Government in pursuing this. You could damage Northern
:28:57. > :29:02.Ireland quite a bit. It would also, I think, damage Scotland's long-
:29:02. > :29:08.term prospects of getting this. If Northern Ireland got it in the
:29:09. > :29:13.short term, it will be easier to argue for it in Scotland in the
:29:13. > :29:21.long term. Let me put this strongly. The Scottish Government seems to be
:29:21. > :29:24.blundering into this. I share the frustration of CBI Scotland
:29:24. > :29:28.regarding the discussion paper from the Scottish Government. It is a
:29:28. > :29:33.very one-sided document and says almost nothing about the costs of
:29:33. > :29:43.doing this. Any policy is probably good value if he would like to keep
:29:43. > :29:46.
:29:46. > :29:52.the other costs out of it. quoted earlier the CBI. You did say
:29:52. > :29:57.that they tend to scare the pants of people. You did not quote people
:29:57. > :30:04.like the Federation of Small Business are people like Jim McColl
:30:04. > :30:10.who gave evidence to the committee. That is one successful businessman
:30:10. > :30:15.who takes the opposite view of the CBI. Would you agree that there is
:30:15. > :30:22.not a unanimity of view across business about whether or not
:30:22. > :30:28.corporation tax should be devolved to Scotland. And two per train debt
:30:28. > :30:34.-- and to betray it as an devolution of power is incorrect?
:30:34. > :30:41.Yes, I quite agree that there are diverse views. Inside Government in
:30:41. > :30:47.London, the CBI is not on board and that fact has been taken very
:30:47. > :30:53.seriously. We're being told by the UK Government that their minds have
:30:54. > :31:00.not been made up and there is it respect agenda for this Parliament.
:31:00. > :31:05.You seem to be suggesting that their mind has already been made up.
:31:05. > :31:10.You said that you have heard from close sources in the UK Government
:31:10. > :31:14.that under no circumstances would stop and get corporation tax. That
:31:14. > :31:19.rather negates the language that has been used by UK ministers. That
:31:19. > :31:23.is very concerning not only for this Parliament and the Scottish
:31:23. > :31:28.Government, but for this committee who have been spending many hours
:31:28. > :31:36.in serious examination of these issues are. Doesn't it rather
:31:36. > :31:40.undermine the issue of the respect I do not know what UK Government
:31:40. > :31:45.ministers have told you but I am telling you clearly what they have
:31:45. > :31:49.told me privately. Are you saying that UK Government ministers are
:31:49. > :31:52.saying that this committee is wasting its time talking about
:31:53. > :31:59.corporation tax? Yes. That is the short answer.
:31:59. > :32:02.The committee agreed to send Dr Gudgin's evidence to UK Government
:32:02. > :32:08.ministers to find out if they were wasting their time. A spokesman
:32:08. > :32:18.from the Scotland Office game was this line. He said, any changes to
:32:18. > :32:21.
:32:21. > :32:24.the Bill must be based on detailed evidence and cross-party consensus.
:32:24. > :32:33.Let's pick up on this issue with our political commentator, Hamish
:32:33. > :32:37.Macdonell. Quite extraordinary evidence, there. Quite so. We now
:32:37. > :32:40.know what the UK Government's position is on this. I think it is
:32:40. > :32:48.unlikely we will get corporation tax. I think there are bigger
:32:48. > :32:53.issues to be considered. It was mentioned in the report about the
:32:53. > :32:58.respect agenda. I just get the impression that this is the start
:32:58. > :33:02.of a process which will see the end of that agenda. I think this is a
:33:02. > :33:06.sign, and we will see others in the weeks to come, of the UK Government
:33:07. > :33:15.starting to play hardball with the Scottish government and say, no,
:33:15. > :33:25.you cannot of all these things that you want. -- you cannot have.
:33:25. > :33:30.
:33:30. > :33:32.It is claimed... The Northern Ireland administration have been
:33:32. > :33:37.asking for corporation tax for valid reasons because of their
:33:37. > :33:41.proximity to the Republic of Ireland for many years. They see
:33:41. > :33:46.Scotland as latecomers to the scene, trying to get something that they
:33:46. > :33:50.have been pushing for for some time, and getting in the way of the
:33:50. > :33:54.Northern Irish solution. Peter Robinson was making that
:33:54. > :33:59.point might very clearly during the summer. Where does this leave the
:33:59. > :34:02.Scottish government now? Did they ever hope that corporation tax
:34:02. > :34:07.might be devolved north of the border? They did, very much so.
:34:08. > :34:16.They used the argument to say that they had a mandate here in Scotland
:34:16. > :34:26.and that gave them the right to demand the sorts -- these sorts of
:34:26. > :34:29.
:34:29. > :34:33.changes. There could be a real battle between the two
:34:33. > :34:38.administrations. Let us look at what the next stage
:34:38. > :34:47.is. What do you think might happen with the Scotland Bill further down
:34:47. > :34:50.the line? I think there is a chance that the Scottish government may
:34:50. > :34:57.not give legislative consent to the Scotland Bill. You would then be in
:34:57. > :35:02.a situation where the UK Government has passed a Bill and it would be
:35:02. > :35:05.knocked back by a technical motion in the Scottish Parliament. What
:35:05. > :35:09.does the UK Government do at that stage? We are in uncharted
:35:09. > :35:13.territory again. You would have a constitutional battle between a
:35:13. > :35:18.government up here that has a mandate and the majority and the
:35:18. > :35:22.government in Westminster which the end his -- the SNP says has no
:35:22. > :35:26.mandate up here. Thank you for the moment.
:35:26. > :35:30.Ed Miliband has said that the row over relaxed UK border controls
:35:30. > :35:35.over the summer has turned into a complete fiasco. David Cameron said
:35:35. > :35:40.he backed his Home Secretary following claim and counter-claim
:35:40. > :35:45.about what actually happened. At PMQs, Mr Cameron was also asked why
:35:45. > :35:55.RBS bankers were getting �500 million in bonuses. The Prime
:35:55. > :35:56.
:35:56. > :35:59.Minister cannot tell us how many millions of people were let in
:35:59. > :36:03.under the relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr
:36:03. > :36:07.Speaker, is it not totally unacceptable that the Home
:36:07. > :36:12.Secretary chose to relax border controls in July, and Devine
:36:12. > :36:18.yesterday she could not tell us which airports and ports it applied
:36:18. > :36:23.to, how many took it up and for how long? She provided those figures.
:36:23. > :36:31.The figures for the number of arrests are as follows. Firearms -
:36:31. > :36:35.a 100% increase in seizures, illegal immigrants... The simple
:36:35. > :36:41.fact that the Right Honourable Gentleman has to accept, and I
:36:41. > :36:45.think everyone has to accept, is this: The head of the UK Border
:36:45. > :36:51.agency, who also did not know that this unauthorised action was taking
:36:51. > :36:59.place, he said this, and I think it is very important for the house to
:36:59. > :37:02.understand. He said this: Brodie Clark admitted to be on 2nd
:37:02. > :37:06.November that on a number of occasions this year he authorised
:37:06. > :37:10.his staff to go further than ministerial action. I therefore
:37:10. > :37:15.suspended him from his duties. In my opinion, it was right for
:37:15. > :37:19.officials to have recommended the pilot so we focused our attention
:37:19. > :37:22.on high risks to our border. It is unacceptable that one of my
:37:22. > :37:26.officials went further than was approved. That is why he was
:37:26. > :37:30.suspended, that is why the one Secretary back to that decision,
:37:30. > :37:34.but is a bit -- but it is an important issue at understand that
:37:34. > :37:38.Brodie Clark was suspended by their head of the UK Border agency. It
:37:38. > :37:48.was a decision, quite rightly, taken by him, backed by the warm
:37:48. > :37:49.
:37:49. > :37:53.Secretary, backed by me. Is it not utterly typical Mr Speaker, that
:37:54. > :37:58.they claim things have nothing to do with them. Is it not the end --
:37:58. > :38:04.is it not indefensible that the Royal Bank of Scotland should now
:38:04. > :38:11.be paying over �500 million in bonuses this year? No, I do not
:38:11. > :38:21.think it is on accept that -- it is acceptable. We will be making our
:38:21. > :38:21.
:38:21. > :38:26.views known. War is a failure of politics. The people who go to war
:38:26. > :38:32.are not politicians, they are brave service people who die in the
:38:32. > :38:36.service of their country. Could I asked my right honourable friend to
:38:36. > :38:42.point out that the poppy is not a political symbol, it is a symbol
:38:42. > :38:51.that says we respect the sacrifice made by people on behalf of their
:38:51. > :38:58.budget. I will certainly do that. It is also about asking membership
:38:58. > :39:04.bodies of FIFA to take a strong line about this. This is not a line
:39:04. > :39:11.about -- an issue about left or right. We all do it, even if we do
:39:11. > :39:15.not approve of the Warsaw that people were fighting him. We do it
:39:15. > :39:22.to recognise the fact that people have made a sacrifice. I hope it
:39:22. > :39:26.can make people think again. Let us stay in the row about UK
:39:26. > :39:29.passport controls. We got to David Porter at Westminster. A very
:39:30. > :39:33.interesting Prime Minister's Question Time today. Do you think
:39:33. > :39:41.Theresa May is safe for the moment? I think she has difficult questions
:39:41. > :39:45.to answer. It has all the indications that it will go on for
:39:45. > :39:49.a few days yet, just because of the choreography of things. Brodie
:39:49. > :39:53.Clarke is likely to be giving evidence to the Home Affairs
:39:53. > :39:56.Committee next week. That means that the row will continue at least
:39:57. > :40:05.until then. It is that becoming, I think, one of those questions not
:40:05. > :40:08.just about Theresa May but perhaps more importantly about her judgment
:40:08. > :40:18.and to our competence. At the moment she has the full backing of
:40:18. > :40:19.
:40:19. > :40:29.the Prime Minister. The 4th -- for the third time in three days in a
:40:29. > :40:30.
:40:30. > :40:37.role she is having to defend herself. If there are no has been
:40:37. > :40:42.any communication with Harar members of her department that the
:40:42. > :40:46.relaxation was OK, then she would be in real trouble. She came men
:40:46. > :40:50.promising that these things would not happen. This proves how
:40:50. > :40:55.difficult the Home Office is to control. There is a saying here
:40:55. > :40:59.that the Home Office is the graveyard of many a politician will
:40:59. > :41:03.stop the UK Border agency, to use John Reid's phrase from a few years
:41:03. > :41:08.ago, not fit for purpose. There are many politicians who still believe
:41:08. > :41:11.that is the case. Immigration will always be a controversial issue.
:41:11. > :41:15.For many in the Conservative Party it is a touchstone issue. They said
:41:15. > :41:23.they would get on top of it. Again, although this is perhaps not to do
:41:23. > :41:28.with numbers of people coming end to settle in Britain, it is linked
:41:28. > :41:31.to it. I think the most damaging part for Teresa me so far has been
:41:31. > :41:34.that statement she made to the House of Commons on Monday when she
:41:34. > :41:42.said she did not know how many people are coming to Britain
:41:42. > :41:46.because of this extra relaxation and she did not know how many
:41:46. > :41:50.people should have been the subject of more strength -- stringent
:41:50. > :41:57.regulations. It seems, at the moment, she is still not able to
:41:57. > :42:02.come up with that figure of the number of people who should not be
:42:02. > :42:04.here. That is very damaging for her politically. The oppositional that
:42:04. > :42:10.and that is why they are trying to capitalise on it.
:42:10. > :42:14.David Porter, thanks very much. Some breaking news. We have heard
:42:14. > :42:19.that councillors in North Ayrshire have rejected proposals for a new
:42:19. > :42:25.coal-fired power station to be built at Hunterston. That will now
:42:25. > :42:28.go to a public inquiry. Let us pick up on some political
:42:28. > :42:34.issues in the PoW -- in the company of our political commentator,
:42:34. > :42:37.Hamish Macdonell. Hamish, let us go back to Theresa May and the
:42:37. > :42:41.passport control row. A hugely damaging for the Prime Minister and
:42:41. > :42:44.a one Secretary, isn't it? Absolutely. I remember from my days
:42:44. > :42:47.in Westminster that there was a tradition around ministers that
:42:47. > :42:51.went back many years that you did not blame civil servants when
:42:51. > :42:57.things went wrong because they could not answer for themselves.
:42:57. > :43:01.Theresa May has done that. She has blamed Brodie Clark public for this.
:43:01. > :43:10.It is no surprise that he has hit back at her, and hit back very hard
:43:10. > :43:14.indeed. This comes down to who knew what and when. It Brodie Clarke can
:43:14. > :43:19.prove that Theresa May knew more than she said she did at the time
:43:19. > :43:24.then, yes, I think she is probably finished at point. It has a long
:43:24. > :43:29.way to go but she has got herself into some trouble. It is
:43:29. > :43:33.interesting how civil servants do hit back these days. The Prime
:43:33. > :43:39.Minister, after losing his Defence Secretary a few weeks ago, he
:43:39. > :43:47.cannot really lose a Home Secretary now, can he? To lose one it is
:43:47. > :43:51.careless, losing two would be disastrous. Theresa May is showing
:43:51. > :43:56.herself to be rather accident prone. If you remember the Conservative
:43:56. > :43:59.Party Conference, she got herself into a hot water over a cat and
:43:59. > :44:03.whether a person was expelled or not and then a row with Kenneth
:44:03. > :44:06.Clarke. She has not shown herself to be the safe pair of hands that
:44:06. > :44:10.any Prime Minister would like to have been a Home Office. That is a
:44:10. > :44:15.problem for the Prime Minister. and it proves how troublesome the
:44:15. > :44:19.Home Office is. It is, very much so. As David said, it is the graveyard
:44:19. > :44:28.for many political ambitions. He will be hoping it is not hers.
:44:28. > :44:32.Thank you. Do remember that we have Scottish
:44:32. > :44:37.Questions after 11pm tonight. David Porter will be back with that. That
:44:37. > :44:41.is all we have time for. We are back at the usual time of 2:30pm on