:00:18. > :00:25.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up in the
:00:26. > :00:28.programme... Child abuse survivors accuse the Education Secretary of
:00:29. > :00:33.the coming complicit in the cover-up of offences for refusing to change
:00:34. > :00:40.the terms of the government inquiry. And Holyrood MSPsdebate labour calls
:00:41. > :00:45.to protect education spending over the next five years. As the clock is
:00:46. > :00:49.ticking here at Westminster at the Prime Minister agrees that he wants
:00:50. > :00:56.an agreement on the financial deal that will underpin more Scottish
:00:57. > :00:58.devolution. Survivors of child abuse have accused the Scottish Government
:00:59. > :01:04.of becoming complicit in the cover-up of offences. Able demand
:01:05. > :01:08.ministers change the remit of the inquiry established to investigate
:01:09. > :01:10.allegations but also social affairs correspondent reports the government
:01:11. > :01:19.says it's already done that and Allegations of abuse at the former
:01:20. > :01:23.border gust is Abbey School are among the high-profile being
:01:24. > :01:27.considered in the Independent inquiry announced by the Scottish
:01:28. > :01:30.Government. Ministers said Scotland's widest ever inquiry and
:01:31. > :01:34.the report in four years. But campaigners including this catholic
:01:35. > :01:41.priest say it's not wide enough. Many allegations include abuse in
:01:42. > :01:44.parishes will not be covered. It doesn't include people who were
:01:45. > :01:52.abused within care homes and needs to be broadened because the inquiry
:01:53. > :01:58.needs to listen to everybody. And it can't be selective. Abuse survivors
:01:59. > :02:01.like Andy Lavery said the government must listen to those who have been
:02:02. > :02:06.calling for the inquiry to be widened. We had no consent what
:02:07. > :02:09.happened as children, we have no consent now, they are ignoring us
:02:10. > :02:14.now and they did when we were children. I they complicit? I
:02:15. > :02:20.couldn't offer an opinion either way but what has happened is full and
:02:21. > :02:22.discriminatory and its effect on us is devastating. Ministers say by
:02:23. > :02:25.restricting the inquiry to residential care it will be able to
:02:26. > :02:31.report more quickly and that is important. Survivors want to see
:02:32. > :02:38.inquiry get on with its job, come with meaningful resolutions in a
:02:39. > :02:43.timescale and they don't want to be disheartened by having to wait an
:02:44. > :02:47.excessive amount of time. Before there is an outcome. But even some
:02:48. > :02:52.in the Catholic Church now say by excluding its activities the inquiry
:02:53. > :02:57.will not be shining a light on all of Scotland's dark corners of the
:02:58. > :03:02.government claimed. Regal Alderson joins me now. Where
:03:03. > :03:09.has this allegation of complicity come from? It's coming from a group
:03:10. > :03:16.called in care survivors in Scotland. What they say is and other
:03:17. > :03:21.groups say similar things... By not looking at, for instance, the
:03:22. > :03:26.Catholic Church and the abuse which is widely accepted to have taken
:03:27. > :03:30.place within the Catholic Church by priests, in parishes and churches
:03:31. > :03:33.and parish missions and so forth... The government is effectively
:03:34. > :03:39.closing those investigations down and therefore it is being claimed,
:03:40. > :03:45.that they are complicit in hiding that abuse in a way that has been
:03:46. > :03:52.hidden for many decades. Just to be clear, the distinction here is that
:03:53. > :03:55.in say a catholic school... Or some sort of educational institution that
:03:56. > :04:03.was staffed by priests... That will be covered. No, it won't. Remit of
:04:04. > :04:09.the inquiry is simply to look at allegations of abuse in residential
:04:10. > :04:15.institutions. Residential schools, boarding schools, that's the thing,
:04:16. > :04:19.whether operated by the state, private organisations are by the
:04:20. > :04:23.church. And also, children who were fostered or sent away from perhaps
:04:24. > :04:26.the central Gulf of Scotland to be fostered elsewhere in Scotland, that
:04:27. > :04:33.is what will include. It include allegations of abuse may have taken
:04:34. > :04:39.place in a day school, for instance, if someone abused children while in
:04:40. > :04:42.the care of a primary or secondary school in the state sector, it won't
:04:43. > :04:46.include allegations of abuse in parishes or indeed organisations
:04:47. > :04:50.like the Scouts, Army cadets are the Salvation Army. Why does the
:04:51. > :04:55.government not extended? It is not obvious why they would not want
:04:56. > :04:59.everything to come out? They say it's because everyone wants this
:05:00. > :05:06.inquiry to report as quickly as possible. It has a four Europe time
:05:07. > :05:10.period to do so, until October 2019 and by widening the remit the
:05:11. > :05:15.government argues it would take longer and that would be detrimental
:05:16. > :05:19.to the hopes of survivors who want to see a line drawn under the
:05:20. > :05:25.swansong all. But, I have to say, that is what is happening in England
:05:26. > :05:28.and Wales and other enquiries around the world and survivors say why
:05:29. > :05:33.don't we look at what they are doing because we would like the same?
:05:34. > :05:37.Thank you. My guest for today is the daily record's political editor
:05:38. > :05:44.David Clegg. Briefly... What do you make of this? Clearly a sort of
:05:45. > :05:49.clash, right against right, speed... It's a difficult situation for the
:05:50. > :05:53.Scottish Government because, I mean, there is no political aspect to
:05:54. > :05:57.this, they want to get this inquiry to be as effective and speedy as
:05:58. > :06:04.possible but it's a very difficult, sensitive situation. If they are in
:06:05. > :06:07.a situation where enquiries elsewhere in England and around the
:06:08. > :06:12.world or broader... That is potentially... It could put them in
:06:13. > :06:16.difficulty and survivors groups say they are becoming complicit or they
:06:17. > :06:20.are letting the Catholic Church off the hook. It is very emotive
:06:21. > :06:25.language and the Scottish Government will be very keen to ward off any
:06:26. > :06:31.allegations like that. But equally, it's already taken four years to do
:06:32. > :06:35.it under that remit, the inquiry has said they are going to take elderly
:06:36. > :06:38.people and people who are ill, prioritise their evidence so they
:06:39. > :06:44.can get that done as quickly as possible. But it is such a wide
:06:45. > :06:48.remit already, there is such an extensive kind of brief to cover, I
:06:49. > :06:52.think it's pretty difficult. We are about to watch a bit of
:06:53. > :06:56.Parliamentary debate, which is ostensibly about education, I will
:06:57. > :07:01.just clarify or could you clarify... This is all becoming a proxy for we
:07:02. > :07:08.will put your taxi up by 1p, no, we won't. -- put your taxes up. I
:07:09. > :07:12.suspect the lot of the debate this afternoon will focus on the use is
:07:13. > :07:15.not what they are discussing his priorities, that is what the Labour
:07:16. > :07:20.Party in particular, they brought this debate, it's what they are
:07:21. > :07:23.trying to frame this upcoming Holyrood election on, which is they
:07:24. > :07:28.have said they will put income tax up to invest in public services,
:07:29. > :07:32.specifically education. Today they are citing figures from the
:07:33. > :07:38.Parliament's mutual information centre, saying they think education
:07:39. > :07:42.could be facing a 16% cut of the next five years under the SNP plans.
:07:43. > :07:48.I'm sure the Scottish Government will deny that. Presumably that is
:07:49. > :07:52.based on an old set of assumptions? Because this money is largely
:07:53. > :07:57.diverted through local authorities, most local authority spending is.
:07:58. > :08:01.Just to make clear, it's very confusing, education is to some
:08:02. > :08:05.extent, a large extent, at the discretion of local authorities,
:08:06. > :08:08.they can decide if they have a lump of money that may have been cut,
:08:09. > :08:13.they will say we can prioritise education and put the money into
:08:14. > :08:17.that. In some regards their hands are tied, it's difficult, the
:08:18. > :08:23.central question we will get to today is should we be taxing more to
:08:24. > :08:27.spend more? Particularly because the Scottish Parliament has the power to
:08:28. > :08:29.do that and depending on the fiscal framework negotiations which are
:08:30. > :08:35.ongoing, they could have more powers to do so in the years ahead. David,
:08:36. > :08:40.don't go away. Let's go to the chamber. Labourer leading ad debate
:08:41. > :08:43.on the future prosperity of Scotland calling for education spending to be
:08:44. > :08:51.protected in real terms over the next five years. I'm not quite sure
:08:52. > :08:55.who is speaking... Let's go and see. The terms of the motion are
:08:56. > :09:01.substantially more narrowly drawn to refer to education. Can you advise
:09:02. > :09:05.me whether... Or do please, let's hear the point of order. Which
:09:06. > :09:10.constitutes the title of the debate and the terms of the motion, stand
:09:11. > :09:14.equally in determining what we may consider to be the subject of the
:09:15. > :09:18.debate. In particular... Not because I envisage this will be what will
:09:19. > :09:23.happen, for future reference, we did he in order for someone to make a
:09:24. > :09:28.speech that referred to Scotland's future prosperity but made no
:09:29. > :09:33.reference to education? And, presiding officer, it's of course a
:09:34. > :09:35.very debate on education we are about to have and I don't intend to
:09:36. > :09:43.diminish the importance of that subject. Many thanks, order, please.
:09:44. > :09:45.The member is correct that I can stop a member speaking if they
:09:46. > :09:50.depart from the subject of the debate. Stop in fact, most members
:09:51. > :09:55.in this chamber was no on occasion I have been known to do so. The
:09:56. > :10:00.subject of the debate is determined by the terms of the motion and the
:10:01. > :10:04.amendment and not the title of the motion. I judge whether then our
:10:05. > :10:11.contribution is relevant in each case. And in this case, Mr
:10:12. > :10:14.Stephenson asks about, I would advise the member to refer to
:10:15. > :10:19.education in his contribution given the terms of the motion and the
:10:20. > :10:27.amendments. Thank you. We now turn to the next item of business. The
:10:28. > :10:31.debate on motion number 15,588, in the name of Iain Gray. The future
:10:32. > :10:35.prosperity of Scotland. Could those members who wish to contribute
:10:36. > :10:42.please press the request to speak buttons now... And by Colin Kezia
:10:43. > :10:48.Dugdale to speak to and move the motion in the name of Iain Gray, 14
:10:49. > :10:54.minutes please. Thank you, presiding officer. Education is my passion. I
:10:55. > :10:59.was raised by teachers, I learned from them all education can enrich
:11:00. > :11:03.lives and overcome any predetermined destiny. Education offers a first
:11:04. > :11:06.chance for individuals to blossom into the people they are capable of
:11:07. > :11:13.becoming. And a second chance to start again. To choose a new life.
:11:14. > :11:18.Our schools and nurseries or where we place our children's future into
:11:19. > :11:21.the trust of the government's hands, our colleges and universities or
:11:22. > :11:27.where we seek the future prosperity of our very nation. Education is
:11:28. > :11:35.both an anti-poverty policy and our most important economic policy.
:11:36. > :11:39.Education is everything. I nurseries, schools, colleges and
:11:40. > :11:42.universities either stay away out of disadvantage, they either map which
:11:43. > :11:46.shows us where to locate our potential. Ask any of the big
:11:47. > :11:51.thinkers on the left, joseph Stiglitz tells us if we do not
:11:52. > :11:53.invest in education we are transmitting advantages and
:11:54. > :12:00.disadvantages across generations. Thomas Picardy tells us the best way
:12:01. > :12:06.to increase wages and two red juice wage inequality in the long run is
:12:07. > :12:11.to invest in education and in skill. But the sad truth is that investing
:12:12. > :12:15.in education has not been the priority of this SNP government.
:12:16. > :12:21.When this parliament was established in 1999, we spent ?204 more per
:12:22. > :12:28.person than the UK average and education. Today that difference has
:12:29. > :12:32.fallen to just ?18. We still have higher public spending than the rest
:12:33. > :12:38.of the UK, we just don't spend it on education. Education must be our
:12:39. > :12:44.national priority, the very first call for resources, the very last
:12:45. > :12:51.place that we choose to cut. Yet, the SNP cut and cut and cut...
:12:52. > :12:56.Teacher numbers are added ten year low after local councils have been
:12:57. > :13:01.cut and cut. The amount spent on primary schools has been spent by
:13:02. > :13:09.?560, primary school pupils, cut... Secondary spent per pupil cut ?285,
:13:10. > :13:16.even nurseries, supposedly the signature policy of this First
:13:17. > :13:19.Minister cut by ?290 per person. Audit Scotland found every local
:13:20. > :13:23.authority has cut spending and almost every council has had to cut
:13:24. > :13:28.teacher numbers. This is a government who came to power
:13:29. > :13:34.promising to cut primary one to three class sizes to 18 or less yet
:13:35. > :13:39.today, just one in eight are in classes under 18. And one in four of
:13:40. > :13:46.five to seven-year-olds are taught in classes of more than 25. Yet the
:13:47. > :13:50.SNP just keep on cutting, more cuts to childcare, ?130 million less for
:13:51. > :13:54.education in the current budget, hundreds of millions of pounds more
:13:55. > :14:00.cuts to the local authorities that run our local schools.
:14:01. > :14:04.That was Kezia Dugdale speaking. We will be back in the chamber for the
:14:05. > :14:10.government response. Right now I am joined from the Garden Lobby by
:14:11. > :14:18.Murdo Fraser, Jackie Baillie, Tammy Scott and Kevin Stewart. Kevin,
:14:19. > :14:23.let's get to the fact we had a litany of accusations from Kezia
:14:24. > :14:28.Dugdale that education budgets are cut but will they be cut? I think
:14:29. > :14:33.maybe what we heard, would have been better heard in an English
:14:34. > :14:40.literature class. What we had is a work of fiction. We are spending
:14:41. > :14:46.seven point to billion pounds in education, some ?208 million more
:14:47. > :14:52.than was spent under the last administration. We have invested
:14:53. > :14:58.heavily in early years, and increase the amount of nursery... Sorry...
:14:59. > :15:01.You are about to debate the budget but will you spend more on education
:15:02. > :15:07.in the coming financial year when you spend this financial year? The
:15:08. > :15:10.budget will rise by 1% when you strip the technicalities, that is a
:15:11. > :15:13.fact, rather than the fiction that Kezia Dugdale has just spun in the
:15:14. > :15:19.chamber. Jackie Baillie, if that's the case, the education budget will
:15:20. > :15:25.rise by 1%, I presume, Kevin Stewart means in real terms. What is all the
:15:26. > :15:31.fuss about? I'm afraid Kevin Stewart is wrong and to describe the work of
:15:32. > :15:33.Audit Scotland as a piece of fiction or the independent experts in the
:15:34. > :15:37.Scottish Parliament Information Centre as somehow pulling the ball
:15:38. > :15:42.over people's eyes is not true. The facts are, 4000 fewer teachers in
:15:43. > :15:46.the classroom in Scotland today than when the SNP came to power. Hang
:15:47. > :15:50.on... Just the sake of clarity, let's forget about that. The
:15:51. > :15:54.question I asked Kevin Stewart is Will there be less spending on
:15:55. > :15:57.education in the coming financial year under the budget John Swinney
:15:58. > :16:03.has laid out there was in this financial year? I am afraid there
:16:04. > :16:08.will be. Look at the education budget itself, 130 million stripped
:16:09. > :16:11.from that, if you cut hundreds of millions of pounds from local
:16:12. > :16:14.authorities who are principally responsible for schools and
:16:15. > :16:20.teachers, then inevitably, you will have cuts there as well. I cannot
:16:21. > :16:23.squeeze the budget any further. Without cutting into one of the
:16:24. > :16:29.biggest parts of the budget, the education budget. If what you have
:16:30. > :16:34.said is true, why not abandon the squeeze on council tax rather than
:16:35. > :16:36.say you want to put income tax up then local authorities could charge
:16:37. > :16:41.as much as they like and they could spend on education. The reality is a
:16:42. > :16:46.1% increase in the council tax would only deliver ?19 million of
:16:47. > :16:50.additional resources, they are facing local government, a cutup
:16:51. > :16:54.hundreds of millions of pounds and it's a cut to the core budget from
:16:55. > :16:58.central government that cannot be made up by simply abandoning the
:16:59. > :17:03.council tax freeze. All right, Tavish Scott, we are in danger of
:17:04. > :17:07.getting toward some clarity, it's not that the education budget will
:17:08. > :17:11.necessarily be cut, Jackie Baillie seems to argue that the cut to local
:17:12. > :17:15.authorities are such that they won't have a choice but to cut education.
:17:16. > :17:18.Why not... You might have to put council tax up a lot, why not just
:17:19. > :17:26.say to councils, you decide? The councils can't decide anything
:17:27. > :17:32.now because they don't have that ability. What I am suggesting is why
:17:33. > :17:40.not say to councils, we will lift capital tax-free is. But the
:17:41. > :17:44.Scottish Government, as you know when not doing that. For the reason
:17:45. > :17:50.Jackie correctly gave, I would have to raise council tax across each
:17:51. > :17:55.authority, it would be so significant and would make so much
:17:56. > :18:00.difference to the ?500 million SNP cuts that are now being imposed on
:18:01. > :18:03.local government. And local councils are the bodies that run our schools
:18:04. > :18:08.and will face these agonising decisions. In the weeks to come when
:18:09. > :18:15.they have to set their budgets, you will see SNP cuts right across
:18:16. > :18:18.Scotland. I think it is a very sad day for the investments we should
:18:19. > :18:26.have an education which is a proposal for the Liberal Democrats.
:18:27. > :18:34.You are not in favour of putting taxes up? Do you accept... Let me
:18:35. > :18:39.ask you the question I asked Jackie Baillie and Kevin Stewart, in your
:18:40. > :18:43.assessment, will education spending next year the greater or smaller
:18:44. > :18:51.than in the current financial year? These decisions are essentially ones
:18:52. > :18:55.for local authorities to take. I still think local authorities can
:18:56. > :18:59.spend their overall budget smarter and make sure we are protecting
:19:00. > :19:03.front-line services. Then give you two examples. If a school attainment
:19:04. > :19:08.fund that the Scottish Government currently overseas to help
:19:09. > :19:12.disadvantaged pupils, we don't think the current means to deliver that is
:19:13. > :19:17.getting to the right pupils and we want to change that system to make
:19:18. > :19:21.sure it goes direct to schools and headteachers to distribute rather
:19:22. > :19:24.through local authorities. The second problem is within the
:19:25. > :19:28.authority, there are still authorities who have their
:19:29. > :19:33.priorities wrong. My local council is spending nearly ?900,000 on
:19:34. > :19:37.relocating their council chambers from the fifth floor to the ground
:19:38. > :19:40.floor of the headquarters building. When money is short, and schools are
:19:41. > :19:49.short of money, that is not a priority. Let's do a quick wide
:19:50. > :19:55.swing round to Kevin Stewart again. There he is, yes. Kevin Stewart,
:19:56. > :19:59.what is your response to the point that both Jackie Baillie and Tavish
:20:00. > :20:04.Scott made which is that technically there may not be a cut in education
:20:05. > :20:07.budget but that is because it is at the discretion of local authorities?
:20:08. > :20:11.And they will not have any choice if you cut their budgets, except to
:20:12. > :20:16.pass that on to some extent, no matter how much they try not to, to
:20:17. > :20:22.education. So you're just being hypocritical. First off, I think
:20:23. > :20:30.they are being hypocritical because what none of them have said is about
:20:31. > :20:37.the cut to the Scottish block budget from Westminster. We are spending
:20:38. > :20:43.?7.2 billion on education, that is up from the previous administration
:20:44. > :20:47.by ?208 million. Local authorities have decisions to make that I would
:20:48. > :20:52.say that local authorities have the ability to look at other areas,
:20:53. > :20:57.shared services and various other things and make any savings there
:20:58. > :21:04.rather than front-line services and education. Beyond that, in terms of
:21:05. > :21:09.local authorities, major investment is going into social care... What
:21:10. > :21:13.you are effectively saying is local authorities should preserve spending
:21:14. > :21:17.on education and absolutely hammer everything else. No, what I am
:21:18. > :21:19.saying is local authorities should preserve front-line services and
:21:20. > :21:23.what they should do is look at things like shared services. In
:21:24. > :21:30.Aberdeen city when I would be cancelled there, we entered into a
:21:31. > :21:37.deal with Aberdeen chart joint procurement unit and save several
:21:38. > :21:40.hundred thousand pounds. That is not happening right across the country
:21:41. > :21:45.and councils need to look at these things and to deal with these first.
:21:46. > :21:51.Jackie Baillie, Kevin Stewart have the point. We had the chairman of
:21:52. > :21:58.Koestler on the Sunday politics a few weeks ago and he accepted this
:21:59. > :22:08.cuts since 2010 had not had a particular effect on local services.
:22:09. > :22:11.Both Kevin Stewart and Murdo Fraser say this is pressuring local
:22:12. > :22:20.authorities to do things more efficiently. Clearly there was a lot
:22:21. > :22:23.of fat to be cut. Local authorities have for years been making
:22:24. > :22:27.efficiency savings, trying to do things smarter, working with each
:22:28. > :22:31.other to cut down on cost. And that is good. We would expect that to
:22:32. > :22:36.happen as a matter of course but the scale of these cuts, hundreds of
:22:37. > :22:40.millions of pounds, demonstrate that not only has education already been
:22:41. > :22:44.cut despite what is being said to you here, we know education is being
:22:45. > :22:47.cut. We know people are contemplating cuts to education in
:22:48. > :22:56.future because they have nowhere else to go. Let me say to you, these
:22:57. > :23:09.are John Swinney's cuts. Tory, Westminster cuts. Tavish Scott, the
:23:10. > :23:12.point being made about efficiency, there is financial pressure, no one
:23:13. > :23:17.likes to see local authority employees either losing their jobs
:23:18. > :23:21.not been replaced, but the fact is there was plenty you could without
:23:22. > :23:25.cutting front-line services so there is no need to do what you want to
:23:26. > :23:27.do, which is to raise everybody's income tax to pay for services that
:23:28. > :23:46.could be paid for anyway. Absolute nonsense! What Kevin
:23:47. > :23:50.Stewart just said, and I think that is illustrative of this government,
:23:51. > :23:55.there is nothing they will not interfere in. There is nothing they
:23:56. > :24:00.will tell local government not to do. On schools, the Scottish
:24:01. > :24:07.Government are imposing teacher numbers deal and they are
:24:08. > :24:16.imposing... Good for education. Briefly, Murdo Fraser... What we see
:24:17. > :24:22.here is a combination of Labour and Liberal Democrats hammering
:24:23. > :24:27.hard-working families across Scotland by putting up their taxes.
:24:28. > :24:32.We note people across Scotland are still there are already feeling the
:24:33. > :24:42.tax. I am glad that the SNP are taking... It gladdens my Tory hard
:24:43. > :24:51.to see these people take a Tory line! Back to the chamber were now
:24:52. > :24:55.Labour are calling today for education spending to be protected
:24:56. > :24:58.in real terms over the next five years. The Education Secretary
:24:59. > :25:10.Angela Constance is responding for the government now. Last year record
:25:11. > :25:13.number of young people left school, record numbers of people attaining
:25:14. > :25:19.age qualifications from colleagues and record numbers of Scottish
:25:20. > :25:27.domiciled students are applying to go to university in Scotland this
:25:28. > :25:33.year. We are also making progress in closing the attainment gap with an
:25:34. > :25:43.increase in the number of school leavers from the 20% most deprived
:25:44. > :25:55.communities achieve three or more... No, go to make some progress first.
:25:56. > :25:58.This year, UCAS figures showed a 50% increase in university applications
:25:59. > :26:05.from 18-year-olds in the most disadvantaged areas of Scotland
:26:06. > :26:14.since 2006. Perhaps later. Others have acknowledged this progress. All
:26:15. > :26:17.available measures of educational outcome have improved, including
:26:18. > :26:24.performance of children from the most deprived areas of Scotland. The
:26:25. > :26:29.though ECD review identified upward trends in attainment and
:26:30. > :26:33.destinations. Sadly, you would not know any of this if you only ever
:26:34. > :26:41.listen to Scottish Labour. I will later. There is more to do... My
:26:42. > :26:47.prerogative. There is more to do, so we are all also investing in
:26:48. > :26:50.specific priorities to improve all children's literacy and numerous the
:26:51. > :26:55.skills while also closing the attainment gap between children from
:26:56. > :27:09.most and least deprived communities. Perhaps later. The campaign for all
:27:10. > :27:13.China Murdo Fraser families with -- all primary one children have been
:27:14. > :27:18.given additional counting and writing materials. Acts have been
:27:19. > :27:23.given to every library in Scotland and a national campaign has achieved
:27:24. > :27:28.a remarkable 100,000 wrap page views. Perhaps Scottish Labour
:27:29. > :27:34.should pay more attention to the read, write, Count campaign. They
:27:35. > :27:42.clearly are having a little problem and need to do a little bit more
:27:43. > :27:53.work on their new Morrissey. How else -- work on their new Morrissey.
:27:54. > :27:55.How else do you explain the fiction concocted by Labour about spending
:27:56. > :28:00.over the next four years? It is based on a full spring is. We
:28:01. > :28:08.haven't set any tax or spending plans beyond next year. That was the
:28:09. > :28:12.Education Secretary speaking there. Now two prime ministers questions
:28:13. > :28:15.where the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn attacked the government on
:28:16. > :28:19.its housing policies. He pressed David Cameron on the problems the
:28:20. > :28:23.young and vulnerable were having on getting onto the housing ladder by
:28:24. > :28:33.highlighting the case of a 20-year-old girl, Rosie, who lives
:28:34. > :28:39.in London. Rosie says, I work incredibly hard at my job, yet I am
:28:40. > :28:45.still having to live at home with my parents. The lack of housing options
:28:46. > :28:49.are forcing her to consider moving. Even leaving the country. She asked
:28:50. > :28:54.the Prime Minister what action he is going to take to help young people
:28:55. > :28:58.and families suffering from unrealistic House prices and
:28:59. > :29:03.uncapped rates to get somewhere safe and secure to live. What I would say
:29:04. > :29:07.to Rosie, the Rosie who wrote to him, we want to do everything we can
:29:08. > :29:10.to help young people get on the housing ladder. That is why we have
:29:11. > :29:18.these help to save isomers and I hope she is looking at that. We're
:29:19. > :29:22.cutting Rosie's taxes so this year which she will be able to earn
:29:23. > :29:30.?11,000 before she pays tax. She will be able to buy, through the
:29:31. > :29:38.right to buy extension. Through right to buy that -- crew helped to
:29:39. > :29:50.buy, we are helping people buy their own places with our assistance. Why
:29:51. > :29:56.is the UK Treasury proposing plans that may be detrimental towards
:29:57. > :29:58.Scotland to the June of ?3 billion? Festival, we accept the Smith
:29:59. > :30:03.principles of no detriment. There are two principles. No detriment to
:30:04. > :30:07.Scotland at the time when this Chancellor is made in terms of
:30:08. > :30:11.Scotland having these new tax-raising powers and then no
:30:12. > :30:16.detriment to Scottish taxpayers but also to the rest of the UK taxpayers
:30:17. > :30:19.who we have to bear in mind as we take into account this important
:30:20. > :30:24.negotiation post-op I have had good conversations with the First
:30:25. > :30:28.Minister, negotiations are underway. I want to successfully complete this
:30:29. > :30:32.important piece of devolution in a fair and reasonable way and these
:30:33. > :30:35.negotiations should continue. Let me remind the Right Honourable
:30:36. > :30:41.gentleman, if we had full fiscal devolution with oil revenues having
:30:42. > :30:45.collapsed by 94%, the right honourable gentleman and his party
:30:46. > :30:59.would be just weeks away from a financial calamity for Scotland. In
:31:00. > :31:02.the context of the referendum, in EU membership, don't voters have a
:31:03. > :31:07.right to know that what is promised by the UK Government can be trusted
:31:08. > :31:12.and will be delivered in full? Will be premised tell the Treasury that
:31:13. > :31:15.time is running out on delivering a fair fiscal framework and they must
:31:16. > :31:21.agree a deal that is their best to be people of Scotland and fair to
:31:22. > :31:24.the rest of the United Kingdom. I can tell him everything that has
:31:25. > :31:28.been committed to by this government will be delivered. We committed to
:31:29. > :31:35.this huge act of devolution to Scotland and we have delivered it.
:31:36. > :31:39.All the things we said we would, including vital Smith principles.
:31:40. > :31:44.There is an ongoing negotiation to reach a fair settlement and I would
:31:45. > :31:47.say to the Scottish First Minister and Finance Minister, they have to
:31:48. > :31:53.recognise there must be fairness across the rest of the UK to that
:31:54. > :31:58.with goodwill, I can tell you no one is keener on agreement than me. I
:31:59. > :32:02.want the Scottish National Party here and in Holyrood to have to
:32:03. > :32:07.start making decisions. Which taxes are you going to raise? What will
:32:08. > :32:11.you do with benefits? I want to get rid of this grievance agenda and let
:32:12. > :32:12.you get on with the governing agenda and then we can see what you're made
:32:13. > :32:23.of. David Porter is on College Green
:32:24. > :32:30.insomuch sunshine I am surprised he is not in shorts and sandals. What
:32:31. > :32:37.an appalling prospect. Firstly, I start off with an apology, we have a
:32:38. > :32:41.protest by London taxi drivers, you wait ages for a taxi to come and
:32:42. > :32:45.then 500 turned up at once and we have a police helicopter as well so
:32:46. > :32:53.we will try and battled through it. If it's noisy, apologies in advance.
:32:54. > :32:59.The panel this afternoon, Nicola Stephen, Marion Fellows and Alberto
:33:00. > :33:05.Costa. Let's deal with one subject. The fiscal framework, its technical
:33:06. > :33:10.but important. Alberto, the UK Government according to the SNP is
:33:11. > :33:15.trying to pull a fast one on the Scottish Government? It's the
:33:16. > :33:20.complete reverse. The UK Parliament transferring enormous powers to the
:33:21. > :33:25.Scottish parliament, all that this fiscal framework. There's goodwill
:33:26. > :33:28.amongst the parties here in Westminster with the exception of
:33:29. > :33:35.the SNP and I understand that John Swinney has made some headway. What
:33:36. > :33:39.I don't understand is that Nicola Sturgeon isn't agreeing to the
:33:40. > :33:42.reasonable deal on the table, I fear for the people of Scotland and most
:33:43. > :33:50.importantly, it's they are for all of the United Kingdom. Marion, the
:33:51. > :33:55.SNP, it is the fault of the Scottish Government? No, it's not the fault
:33:56. > :34:01.of the Scottish Government, I think Alberto is on the flyer of his own.
:34:02. > :34:05.The First Minister Road to the prime ministers said we were anxious to
:34:06. > :34:11.get the fiscal agreement in place but in the Smith Commission, as you
:34:12. > :34:15.saw, it's no detriment and that's the important sticking point. Ian
:34:16. > :34:20.Murray, you're going to say something like a plague on both
:34:21. > :34:23.their houses. At an international climate change agreement in December
:34:24. > :34:26.it was put together in less time, this but the agreement was put
:34:27. > :34:31.together by five political parties in less time and the G20 came
:34:32. > :34:36.together for $1 trillion deal in less time. I think both parties need
:34:37. > :34:40.to stop playing games, stay at the negotiating table, no one will thank
:34:41. > :34:43.them for walking away, come to an agreement on how this can go forward
:34:44. > :34:46.even on a temp rebased as to get the powers through and they can come
:34:47. > :34:51.back and look at it again in the future but the important thing here
:34:52. > :34:54.is a deal needs to be done. These are significant powers in terms of
:34:55. > :34:57.the Scottish Parliament, one of the most powerful devolved parliaments
:34:58. > :35:00.in the world and to walk away from any negotiations would do a
:35:01. > :35:05.disservice to the Scottish people and what we saw in Scottish
:35:06. > :35:08.questions and PMQs today was an unwillingness on both sides, I think
:35:09. > :35:15.there's good faith on both sides but we need to stay at the table until
:35:16. > :35:18.all this is done. Jim Gallaher has said and others... Eddie Leie is not
:35:19. > :35:23.impossible, it's a straightforward exercise, we need political will.
:35:24. > :35:27.You've been in government and party to negotiations similar to this in
:35:28. > :35:33.the past, can you understand why it's taken so long? I understand the
:35:34. > :35:35.challenge. It's a big devolution of more challenge to the Scottish
:35:36. > :35:42.Parliament. -- devolution of more power. The federal structure in
:35:43. > :35:45.Scotland... It brings with this the possibility that we have to find a
:35:46. > :35:50.different way of resolving disagreements because they might
:35:51. > :35:54.stumble to an agreement. The SNP must surely accept the new Paris,
:35:55. > :35:59.they are substantial and to turn their backs and that would be a
:36:00. > :36:02.disaster for them and frankly, the UK Government, conservatives, or
:36:03. > :36:07.want shot of this, they don't want it hanging over a future Parliament
:36:08. > :36:10.or the EU referendum. There is a lot of good sense and reaching an
:36:11. > :36:14.agreement at double B squabbles in the future and if you have a federal
:36:15. > :36:18.structure like Australia and Canada, you have some sort of body to
:36:19. > :36:22.resolve these disputes because a party like the right-wing
:36:23. > :36:26.conservatives in London and the SNP in Edinburgh, they will always
:36:27. > :36:31.followed up issues and we need a sensible and mature way of resolving
:36:32. > :36:34.squabbles. Alberto, from an English point of view, I know you represent
:36:35. > :36:38.an English seat, de Leeuw finders resistance from your English
:36:39. > :36:43.colleagues, to put it crudely, you say to the Chancellor don't give
:36:44. > :36:47.them too much? Not at all, I represent a British constituency in
:36:48. > :36:51.the British Parliament, let me be clear. What there is, a tremendous
:36:52. > :36:56.amount of goodwill, not from a right-wing party but a central and
:36:57. > :37:00.balanced Conservative government and let's not forget, we have to live
:37:01. > :37:05.helicopters flying over us, let's not forget, that were not for the
:37:06. > :37:09.Conservative Party there wouldn't have in the Scotland Bill but we
:37:10. > :37:14.presented to the Parliament and that we got through from the Parliament.
:37:15. > :37:17.As Ian said, we are giving extensive powers to the Scottish Parliament
:37:18. > :37:22.and the fact is we are at the negotiating table, it's the Scottish
:37:23. > :37:25.Government and Nicola Sturgeon in particular that for some reason,
:37:26. > :37:30.doesn't want to take up these opportunities. I think we can take
:37:31. > :37:34.it that wasn't Nicola Sturgeon arriving! In the helicopter. Does
:37:35. > :37:38.the Scottish Government really want a deal or are you willing to walk
:37:39. > :37:42.away from it and say, we tried to get a deal for Scotland, it wasn't
:37:43. > :37:49.good enough, were in the middle of an election campaign, tough. I think
:37:50. > :37:54.Alberto has entirely the wrong idea, I don't think you read the letter
:37:55. > :37:56.that the First Minister wrote to the Prime Minister... He did not
:37:57. > :38:00.understand that... Nicola Sturgeon was quite explicit that she wants
:38:01. > :38:05.more powers for the Scottish Parliament and she wants stand-by
:38:06. > :38:10.for the Smith Commission promised, it's no threat to the UK or Scotland
:38:11. > :38:14.and we need per capita indexation for that. Ian Murray, with
:38:15. > :38:20.hindsight, was the Smith Commission pulling a bit of a fast one, it
:38:21. > :38:25.seemed quite innocuous at the time? But in effect, it's difficult. Lord
:38:26. > :38:30.Smith himself said it's easy enough to resolve with the political will
:38:31. > :38:38.to do so, everyone misquote squat Smith said, it's 95, three four...
:38:39. > :38:42.No detriment to either party, with the decision that each party mix.
:38:43. > :38:46.It's not difficult, it's been misquoted on a number of occasions
:38:47. > :38:50.and slightly misquoted in Nicola Sturgeon's letter to the Prime
:38:51. > :38:54.Minister but she asks for three things, transparency, as laid out
:38:55. > :38:57.the principles she wants to negotiate on and she has extended
:38:58. > :39:00.the negotiation time frame. I've been asking for that first six
:39:01. > :39:04.months and I welcome it but let's get the deal done. As someone who's
:39:05. > :39:09.been in government, do you think they will get a deal? On balance, I
:39:10. > :39:13.think they probably will but I agree with Ian, transparency would have
:39:14. > :39:18.helped a great deal, if we knew what was happening behind closed door is
:39:19. > :39:22.then each of us would have been able to come to a much fairer judgement
:39:23. > :39:24.on exactly what is happening and I think it would've been more likely
:39:25. > :39:30.that the parties would have been towards an agreement. Behind closed
:39:31. > :39:34.doors is not a good way to deal government, -- to do government, it
:39:35. > :39:40.should be much more open. Thank you all very much. That's it from us for
:39:41. > :39:45.the taxi drivers of London and the helicopter pilots of London as well.
:39:46. > :39:49.Gordon, back to you. It sounds like world War three is about to break
:39:50. > :39:54.out. You had better go and jump in a cab. David Clegg is here. Let's jump
:39:55. > :39:59.back to the MSPswrote, and interested in your take on what
:40:00. > :40:04.saying to people we are going to put taxes up as likely to be an election
:40:05. > :40:09.winner. The political orthodoxy says it won't be an person opinion poll
:40:10. > :40:12.saying only 30% of people would support and 1p increase in taxes
:40:13. > :40:16.although that's higher than the Labour Party is currently polling so
:40:17. > :40:23.perhaps there is solace and not for them. I think the central point here
:40:24. > :40:27.is that Labour is not expect them to be in government to implement this
:40:28. > :40:30.and it's more about a way of changing the discussion of
:40:31. > :40:35.recalibrating the debate, they want to have a discussion about political
:40:36. > :40:39.choices about taxation and spending, so they cannot talk about the
:40:40. > :40:43.constitution, effectively... And you can see where they are trying to
:40:44. > :40:48.position themselves, to say to some other supporter of orders --
:40:49. > :40:54.supporters and voters, we are left wing. People who monitored the
:40:55. > :40:58.Scottish Parliament said the SNP tugs left but act Centre, they are
:40:59. > :41:06.trying to get the realisation out to a wider public, it has been the
:41:07. > :41:09.idea... Occupying that... That Labour traditionally Saturn, that is
:41:10. > :41:13.a way to move them away from that. But there's a problem... We heard in
:41:14. > :41:19.that discussion, it's actually very ambiguous. These decisions will be
:41:20. > :41:22.made by local government, if you put taxes up don't you need to make it
:41:23. > :41:27.for something specific this will not happen on this we put a penny on
:41:28. > :41:32.income tax, you wanted to happen, we will put a penny on income tax. They
:41:33. > :41:36.are trying to focus it on schools and that's good ground because
:41:37. > :41:39.anyone who has experience of schools in recent years knows there are less
:41:40. > :41:46.teachers, less resources, more strained so if they can connect
:41:47. > :41:52.those two points, we want to put tax up on the better off, if they can
:41:53. > :41:56.explain the rebate idea for people earning under ?20,000, which was
:41:57. > :42:00.quite conjugated to explain and also quite difficult in terms of
:42:01. > :42:05.practicality and say, we will do to help schools, you can see is
:42:06. > :42:10.political logic. One argument I've heard, people say 45% to voted yes
:42:11. > :42:14.in a referendum were not going to be won over by Labour in the selection,
:42:15. > :42:19.it's the 55% they need to win over and they make not be as inclined to
:42:20. > :42:22.go for a rise in income tax, therefore the policy is
:42:23. > :42:27.self-defeating. You could argue that because there is a general idea that
:42:28. > :42:33.it was the middle classes that voted no and the less well off that voted
:42:34. > :42:37.yes. If Labour's electoral strategy is to work within 35% they are never
:42:38. > :42:43.going to get back into government. Want back into government they have
:42:44. > :42:48.to stop that division, its Scottish politics is defined by yes or no for
:42:49. > :42:52.the foreseeable future, Labour are done. We have to leave it there.
:42:53. > :42:56.Thank you. That's all from us for this afternoon. We'll be back on
:42:57. > :43:51.Sunday but until then, goodbye. Hello, and a very warm welcome to
:43:52. > :43:56.Westminster for February's Scottish questions. No shortage of topics for
:43:57. > :43:57.our MPs to get their teeth into, ranging from the financial
:43:58. > :43:58.challenges of the