:00:17. > :00:19.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:20. > :00:23.South Thanet is still being considered, but there'll be no
:00:24. > :00:27.criminal charges following inquiries into Conservative Party election
:00:28. > :00:33.And we'll be asking why Scotland's education system
:00:34. > :00:38.And here at Westminster, it's a lot quieter than usual
:00:39. > :00:47.because the politicains are all away trying to win their jobs back.
:00:48. > :00:50.After examining files from 14 police forces,
:00:51. > :00:52.the Crown Prosecution Service said today that whilst
:00:53. > :00:54.there was evidence of inaccurate spending returns,
:00:55. > :00:58.they don't think it warranted criminal prosecution.
:00:59. > :01:00.There must have been a palpable "phew!"
:01:01. > :01:07.With me throughout today's programme to discuss this
:01:08. > :01:09.and other matters of import is the political
:01:10. > :01:12.But first, let's cross to College Green, where our
:01:13. > :01:14.Westminster correspondent David Porter is basking in
:01:15. > :01:31.What is the reaction to this CPS business? I think you are right,
:01:32. > :01:38.Gordon, as far as the Conservatives are concerned, it is palpable
:01:39. > :01:42.relief. To some extent, this falls into the category of the story of
:01:43. > :01:46.the dog that didn't bite. If it had been the other way round, and we
:01:47. > :01:50.were talking about prosecutions this afternoon, that would have been a
:01:51. > :01:56.huge dislocation to the Conservatives' election campaign.
:01:57. > :01:59.Tomorrow is the deadline for candidates to be selected and to
:02:00. > :02:03.make sure their names get on the ballot paper. It would have been
:02:04. > :02:10.inconceivable that there had been a number of conservatives facing
:02:11. > :02:13.possible prosecution to play any part in that campaign, so the
:02:14. > :02:18.Conservatives would have had to parachute candidates in at short
:02:19. > :02:23.notice. And it would have meant a real jolt to Theresa May's campaign.
:02:24. > :02:27.So far, she has conducted this campaign along the lines of saying
:02:28. > :02:30.that it is between her and Jeremy Corbyn, that is the choice people
:02:31. > :02:36.have to make, and it is all about trust. If we had had a situation
:02:37. > :02:39.where the CPS had said it believed that criminal activity had taken
:02:40. > :02:46.place and there was a legal case to answer in the criminal court, that
:02:47. > :02:52.would have totally changed the nature of this election campaign. As
:02:53. > :02:58.to the reaction of Jeremy Corbyn, to put it mildly, he said he was
:02:59. > :03:04.surprised when he commented after the decision came out. Nicola
:03:05. > :03:08.Sturgeon of the SNP said the Conservatives still have questions
:03:09. > :03:14.to answer about this whole affair. It is worth remembering that their
:03:15. > :03:19.wrist still -- there is still one case in South Thanet that police
:03:20. > :03:25.have files on and could possibly go to the CPS. It is worth remembering
:03:26. > :03:29.that the Conservatives were fined ?70,000 of what went on in the 20
:03:30. > :03:37.15th election by the Electoral Commission. That was a civil fine, a
:03:38. > :03:48.record for a political party. The CPS have decided that it does not
:03:49. > :03:53.meet the threshold for a criminal prosecution. South Thanet, as I
:03:54. > :04:01.understand it, the papers went in late. On the basis of the case there
:04:02. > :04:04.is the same as in the other areas, presumably we can expect no
:04:05. > :04:12.prosecution there either, because it would be inconsistent. Common-sense
:04:13. > :04:15.would indicate that there was some precedent. What happened in one
:04:16. > :04:22.constituency may be different from what happened in another. In 2015,
:04:23. > :04:25.the Conservatives said their battle buses out in marginal
:04:26. > :04:30.constituencies, the vast majority of which they won in the 2015 election,
:04:31. > :04:35.and there was some confusion, let's put it that way, about the way that
:04:36. > :04:40.expenses were totalled up, whether they were local or national. There
:04:41. > :04:52.are very strict rules governing what is local and what is national.
:04:53. > :04:55.Another point to remember is that police forces were given extra time
:04:56. > :05:00.to look at the cases they had before them and collect evidence. It may
:05:01. > :05:05.well just be that in the case of Kent, they are a little behind the
:05:06. > :05:13.other forces. South Thanet is interesting because it is the seat
:05:14. > :05:18.which Nigel Farage fought, and the Conservatives were extremely
:05:19. > :05:24.relieved to defeat him. We may well have a case where those files from
:05:25. > :05:28.Kent could go to the CPS and could be decided on within the next couple
:05:29. > :05:33.of weeks, which of course, would fall within the election period. OK,
:05:34. > :05:39.David. Thanks for that. We will see you later on in the programme if you
:05:40. > :05:44.are not bound to a crisp by then! Alf, for you make of this? It is
:05:45. > :05:46.difficult for the opposition parties because they cannot challenge it
:05:47. > :05:52.without looking like they are challenging the judiciary rather
:05:53. > :05:58.than the Conservatives. The fact that the CPS have said there is no
:05:59. > :06:02.case in almost all but one means there is not much they can do about
:06:03. > :06:07.it other than keep a close eye on the number of as is and hotel rooms
:06:08. > :06:11.that are being built around the country over the next four weeks. It
:06:12. > :06:18.is a big boost for the Tories, isn't it? Because that air of sleaze was
:06:19. > :06:22.hanging over the campaign, and it's now gone. Not just that, if they had
:06:23. > :06:25.said there was a case to answer, there would be a number of seats
:06:26. > :06:32.where they would struggle to put up a candidate. It was obviously a huge
:06:33. > :06:39.relief to them, but it doesn't answer the deeper question of how
:06:40. > :06:44.parties actually go about running elections, how they spend money, get
:06:45. > :06:49.round the rules, either by omission or consciously, and that's probably
:06:50. > :06:57.an area that has to be looked at again, because it's become a much
:06:58. > :07:01.more televisual experience, fighting elections, and things like battle
:07:02. > :07:08.buses and shock troops into marginal seats is part of the game. It will
:07:09. > :07:11.be an ongoing issue, I think, given the levels at which they are allowed
:07:12. > :07:16.to spend within the rules. What is your general impression of the
:07:17. > :07:27.things so far? Pretty grim. What do you mean? The campaign? Yes. I just
:07:28. > :07:31.sense that every commitment has attached to it a tax pledge as to
:07:32. > :07:35.how they will raise the money. There is no real debate about the bigger
:07:36. > :07:41.issues, like the education issue that we'll be talking about in a
:07:42. > :07:46.little while. There's no kind of root and branch depth of debate
:07:47. > :07:55.about that. It's all just seems to be overly static and staged, every
:07:56. > :07:58.day a different subject, a different promise, not much engagement across
:07:59. > :08:11.the parties. The Prime Minister is stepping back from doing leaders'
:08:12. > :08:16.debates, sitting on the sofa at the One Show. From her point of view,
:08:17. > :08:21.does it look like that is what she wants, steady, stable campaigning
:08:22. > :08:27.for a steady, stable result? You are using the two keywords of their
:08:28. > :08:32.campaign - steady and stable. Is there anything Labour can do to
:08:33. > :08:37.disrupt that? What they seem to be doing in a number of those seats
:08:38. > :08:42.with a majority of under 5000, where they are struggling, it seems a lot
:08:43. > :08:45.of the candidates are playing a very local campaign and ignoring the
:08:46. > :08:50.noise about whether Jeremy Corbyn has got it or not on the national
:08:51. > :08:53.stage. We will talk about Scotland later, but first...
:08:54. > :08:55.The Education Secretary, John Swinney, has made a statement
:08:56. > :08:57.to MSPs on literacy levels in Scottish schools.
:08:58. > :08:59.Research published yesterday by the Scottish Government
:09:00. > :09:00.suggests that children's writing performance has slipped
:09:01. > :09:06.A cross-section of children in Primary 4, Primary 7
:09:07. > :09:08.and the second year of secondary school were assessed
:09:09. > :09:13.The most significant fall in writing standards was amongst second years.
:09:14. > :09:17.Swinney outlined some of the key areas where the education
:09:18. > :09:28.We need to get better tracking the progress of each pupil over the
:09:29. > :09:32.course their career. This requirement has meant we had not
:09:33. > :09:35.been as effective as we need to be in identifying where young people
:09:36. > :09:39.may need additional support. We need to be clearer about the standards
:09:40. > :09:44.expected in our classrooms. This is meant teachers are not always been
:09:45. > :09:49.certain about what is required to meet each curriculum for excellence
:09:50. > :09:52.level in literacy, numeracy and across the curriculum areas. Too
:09:53. > :09:57.much well-meaning but overbearing guidance has been produced
:09:58. > :10:01.nationally, locally and sometimes in schools themselves, which has
:10:02. > :10:05.created too much clutter in the curriculum and can divert time from
:10:06. > :10:08.teaching and learning. We need to ensure literacy skills are fully
:10:09. > :10:12.embedded across the curriculum. Inspection evidence found that the
:10:13. > :10:20.potential impact of establishing literacy, numeracy and health and
:10:21. > :10:24.well-being as areas as priorities for teachers has not been fully
:10:25. > :10:30.realised. While the statistics are disappointed, we published data in
:10:31. > :10:35.December 2016 based on teacher judgment demonstrating that 84% of
:10:36. > :10:41.pupils in Scotland achieved the required level by the end of S3.
:10:42. > :10:44.Whilst the survey helps identify emerging issues, the national
:10:45. > :10:47.improvement framework provides us with the data allows us to target
:10:48. > :10:54.improvement in specific parts of Scotland. There will be many parents
:10:55. > :10:58.across Scotland who see the statistics as nothing short of
:10:59. > :11:03.shameful, most especially those which reflect the persistence of the
:11:04. > :11:09.attainment gap, the decline in literacy skills, and those who are
:11:10. > :11:13.not meeting the required standards in writing at all. Could I ask the
:11:14. > :11:16.Cabinet Secretary, does he agree with some of the teachers who have
:11:17. > :11:22.responded to the education committee's call for evidence who
:11:23. > :11:29.psyched that falling teacher numbers and additional classroom bureaucracy
:11:30. > :11:36.are the pressures that prevent -- who state that falling teacher
:11:37. > :11:39.numbers... Does he agree with a literacy expert who says there is a
:11:40. > :11:42.lack of focus to ensure teachers have a depth of knowledge in maths
:11:43. > :11:47.and literacy, and that teacher training is falling short in this
:11:48. > :11:52.area? And does he now accepts that a wide range of data is now essential
:11:53. > :11:58.if we are to effectively measure the curriculum for excellence and it was
:11:59. > :12:01.a mistake to move Scotland from other measurements given their
:12:02. > :12:08.ability to provide better quality evidence? The Cabinet Secretary says
:12:09. > :12:13.that today's statistics confront the case for reform, but they confirmed
:12:14. > :12:16.the case against his Government's ten year stewardship of education.
:12:17. > :12:21.He says he can't turn it round overnight. His Government has had
:12:22. > :12:25.ten years. A generation of children have passed through school while
:12:26. > :12:31.they were getting up to speed. How many years does he need? In those
:12:32. > :12:36.ten years, we have lost over 4000 teachers from our schools, over 1000
:12:37. > :12:40.support staff, the spend per pupil has fallen and class sizes have
:12:41. > :12:45.grown to some of the biggest in the developed world. The Cabinet
:12:46. > :12:49.Secretary promises clear lines of sight, new benchmarks and a new
:12:50. > :12:55.framework on the improvement hub - when is he going to promise as more
:12:56. > :13:01.teachers with more support and more resources to let them do the job
:13:02. > :13:08.they love and want to do? Isn't that the fundamental reform we need now?
:13:09. > :13:12.Thank you. As has been mentioned, the core issue is that there are far
:13:13. > :13:15.fewer staff in our schools than a decade ago, and it will be cold
:13:16. > :13:18.comfort to teachers to hear from the Cabinet Secretary that there are
:13:19. > :13:23.slightly more than there were a year ago, but there are 4000 fewer than
:13:24. > :13:28.there were a decade ago. No governance review will change the
:13:29. > :13:31.core issue. Those delivering education in Scotland weren't asking
:13:32. > :13:36.for the review. They want their cut colleagues back. We have lost a
:13:37. > :13:40.third of school librarians, so I would ask the Cabinet Secretary,
:13:41. > :13:46.what impact does he think that 100 lost librarians have had on reading
:13:47. > :13:52.and writing levels? I will do my best to try to ensure that we raise
:13:53. > :13:55.the appreciation and understanding of the value of library services in
:13:56. > :13:59.our schools through the strategy that I will take forward, and I will
:14:00. > :14:06.work with local authorities to try to gain their participation. I thank
:14:07. > :14:10.the Cabinet Secretary for early side of his statement. These results
:14:11. > :14:16.confirm that pupils and teachers are paying a heavy price after ten years
:14:17. > :14:22.of this SNP Government. Teachers have condemned inconsistencies and
:14:23. > :14:28.changes that have issued forth, more than 1000 pages of evidence to be
:14:29. > :14:33.considered tomorrow demonstrate that perfectly. What confidence can there
:14:34. > :14:40.be that this secretary has got it right this time? We will continue on
:14:41. > :14:44.the relentless agenda I have set out so that we can liberate teachers to
:14:45. > :14:45.concentrate on what we need them too, which is learning and teaching.
:14:46. > :15:00.Well, the problem is that the statistics are going in the opposite
:15:01. > :15:07.direction that the ministers would want it to. The First Minister
:15:08. > :15:12.herself has said this is the one thing she wants to be judged on and
:15:13. > :15:17.it isn't going well. I think all parties in a sense they're a bit of
:15:18. > :15:22.the blame because you don't make curriculum better just by calling it
:15:23. > :15:27.a curriculum for excellence, attaching that word to it. It's got
:15:28. > :15:31.to be in the daily teaching and learning that goes on in classrooms
:15:32. > :15:36.between the teachers and students. It's about the quality of that
:15:37. > :15:44.relationship and the numbers are showing that it's going in
:15:45. > :15:51.absolutely the wrong direction. That curriculum for excellence was a
:15:52. > :15:55.labour- Liberal Democrat idea. Whatever has happened has nothing to
:15:56. > :15:59.do with curriculum of excellent, but it seems that it has got something
:16:00. > :16:09.to do with it? There are number of educational experts have said that
:16:10. > :16:12.the way it has been introduced and delivered has diminished some
:16:13. > :16:21.importance of some skill issues. The other thing about this survey is
:16:22. > :16:26.that is the last one because they aren't going to do any more which
:16:27. > :16:36.means it suggests they don't like what they are finding. One has some
:16:37. > :16:42.sympathy for John Swinney because although the opposition are saying
:16:43. > :16:48.that the SNP have been in power for ten years, John Swinney has been
:16:49. > :16:57.doing it for less than a year, and Nicola Sturgeon has staked her claim
:16:58. > :17:02.on it. I'm not sure that there is anything that could instantaneously
:17:03. > :17:07.start turning things around. Della mac there's a bigger backdrop that
:17:08. > :17:12.these children are being taught in the digital environment. The way
:17:13. > :17:17.they absorb knowledge outside school is more through tablets and phones.
:17:18. > :17:27.He wants more power and money to headteachers than before. They want
:17:28. > :17:32.more testing at more stages because they want hard evidence. They've
:17:33. > :17:40.been trying to do this for years. I served on the MacCormack committee
:17:41. > :17:45.with the principle of Stirling University looking at teacher
:17:46. > :17:50.employment and the role of head teachers. Nothing came of it. We got
:17:51. > :17:54.a rapport together. Some people liked it, some people didn't, but
:17:55. > :18:00.nothing happened to it and it disappeared down a black hole mac.
:18:01. > :18:07.nothing happened to it and it disappeared down a black hole.
:18:08. > :18:21.Lets Joynson MSP. -- let's join some MFP is.
:18:22. > :18:33.Let's talk about the fact that there will be no prosecutions for
:18:34. > :18:38.Conservative MPs over that bus incident. There's still one case
:18:39. > :18:44.outstanding as it currently stands, so they are still not off the hook
:18:45. > :18:49.and it will be an election issue, I would imagine. James Kelly, what do
:18:50. > :18:55.you think? What is clear from this, leaving the decision from the CPS,
:18:56. > :19:03.the Tories are being bankrolled by big business. The focus here is that
:19:04. > :19:14.many people who are donating to the Labour Party... I'm sorry, I was
:19:15. > :19:24.asking you about your opinion on the lack of prosecution for Conservative
:19:25. > :19:33.MPs over electoral funding, not your funding. It doesn't get away from
:19:34. > :19:41.the issues, we want a Government that many not for the few and that's
:19:42. > :19:47.what Labour be focusing on. Mark, standing beside you. What is your
:19:48. > :19:54.reaction to this? Do you have to take a view of the CPS as an
:19:55. > :20:01.independent body? Yes. But it's disappointing. There is a wider
:20:02. > :20:12.crisis within the Tory party. We are seeing terrible comments on Facebook
:20:13. > :20:25.from a number of elected Tory MPs. I feel there is an ethical crisis
:20:26. > :20:33.there. What do you make of this? It now seems to me that parties can
:20:34. > :20:37.flood that constituency with bus-loads of people, and then charge
:20:38. > :20:44.it to a campaign. It's not what I would understand as a local
:20:45. > :20:47.campaign, are you saying that irrespective of the lack of
:20:48. > :20:57.prosecutions, there is an ethical issue about spending? Flooding
:20:58. > :21:02.constituency with workers from your campaign can make a difference. It
:21:03. > :21:11.definitely made a difference in the election two years ago. Liz Smith,
:21:12. > :21:15.I'm not ignoring you, I was leaving you to last because it's your party
:21:16. > :21:30.that is in the dock. Do you understand the point average Scot is
:21:31. > :21:33.making, let's take it that the CPS... Claiming it's part of the
:21:34. > :21:50.national campaign which clearly benefits the local and to... There
:21:51. > :21:57.are ethical issues about elections. You were fined ?75,000. Absolutely,
:21:58. > :22:01.we need to learn lessons from this. I imagine you have no interest in
:22:02. > :22:09.changing the subject from that to talking about the SNP's record on
:22:10. > :22:15.education. I think I've spoken out in the last 24-48 hours on the SNP's
:22:16. > :22:17.record of education when it comes to the disappointing figures from the
:22:18. > :22:35.SS LN about literacy. We've heard from trainees, new and
:22:36. > :22:41.existing teachers. Do we have to say now, do you think that there is a
:22:42. > :22:44.problem with the curriculum for excellence, or is it an
:22:45. > :22:51.extraordinary coincidence that the decline in standards, in Scotland's
:22:52. > :23:01.schools seems to chronologically go together with the introduction for
:23:02. > :23:05.Curriculum For Excellence. I think it's to do with delivery issues. If
:23:06. > :23:10.I go to one of the teachers giving evidence this morning, he summed it
:23:11. > :23:17.up beautifully. He says if you had to define it, I'm not sure how you
:23:18. > :23:28.would do that. You would welcome the direction the John Swinney is going
:23:29. > :23:36.in, more testing in schools, bypassing local authorities. I want
:23:37. > :23:40.to separate out two issues there. Changing the school system to allow
:23:41. > :23:46.headteachers to have a greater say over how they run their schools is
:23:47. > :23:52.one, but when it comes to the organisation of this curriculum, we
:23:53. > :23:59.are not bound by the redundant sheets of paper and guidance that
:24:00. > :24:03.John Swinney has had to get rid of. The big picture here is that this is
:24:04. > :24:08.the issue most important to you and these figures, after ten years of
:24:09. > :24:17.the SNP in Government are pretty shocking, aren't they? I think these
:24:18. > :24:30.figures confirm what we already know about the Pisa results... You can't
:24:31. > :24:35.just say that. I think what you need to be careful to do is look at what
:24:36. > :24:41.is happening between P7 and S2. That's where we need to focus. This
:24:42. > :24:45.extract standards across Scotland nationally so people have a better
:24:46. > :24:52.understanding of standards... The point I'm making and you have to
:24:53. > :24:56.accept this is that under the SNP, the education system, which you see
:24:57. > :25:06.is the most important things you, apart from the constitution has got
:25:07. > :25:14.worse. The education is a vital... You can't point to any progress, can
:25:15. > :25:18.you. We've got record figures in positive destinations so it's not
:25:19. > :25:25.all doom and gloom. Going down that track is a dangerous narrative we've
:25:26. > :25:28.got people working hard in classrooms. We need to be careful
:25:29. > :25:31.about the language and narrative. It's not all doom and gloom...
:25:32. > :25:57.Please don't use the excuse of... You disagree with the direction John
:25:58. > :26:04.Swinney is going in. You think that's wrong? I think the critical
:26:05. > :26:12.issue here is funding. The SNP have taken 1.5 billion pounds out of
:26:13. > :26:22.cancel funds -- council funds, which means less vacancies. Can I ask you
:26:23. > :26:32.the question on funding? Why is that the school system in England has
:26:33. > :26:38.come from well behind the Scottish system and has now overtaken it when
:26:39. > :26:42.they spend something between 10-15% less on schools in England than in
:26:43. > :26:49.Scotland? You can't get away from the fact if you've got less teachers
:26:50. > :26:53.and support staff in schools... The English have done it and they are
:26:54. > :27:02.doing better than we are. That's a funding issue and that's something
:27:03. > :27:06.the S and P -- SNP can't get away from. It doesn't seem to matter to
:27:07. > :27:17.you that the evidence in England's is the opposite from what you are
:27:18. > :27:22.saying. You look at how best to service the schools, but ultimately
:27:23. > :27:38.if you're going to take 1.5 billion pounds out of public services that's
:27:39. > :27:42.what will suffer. Tavish Scott,, what do you think England have
:27:43. > :27:49.called up and overtaken us I can't just be about funding. They have
:27:50. > :27:56.academy schools, autonomy, a different structure, and Gordon, as
:27:57. > :27:58.you well know, they always have. It's important to remember... You
:27:59. > :28:23.can't just say that. You can! Pisa makes up the figures. Are you
:28:24. > :28:30.wanting an Ofsted inspection regime like their? Highly expensive and
:28:31. > :28:37.aggressive. There are profound differences between how you teach. I
:28:38. > :28:42.know fully well what you are describing, but what I am suggesting
:28:43. > :28:45.to you is that the changes we argue for here are two separate the
:28:46. > :28:52.functions of education between the expected on one hand and the policy
:28:53. > :29:06.on the other hand which has produced 20,000 pages of guidance, the
:29:07. > :29:10.bureaucracy... Are there any practical suggestions as to what
:29:11. > :29:16.John Swinney could do that would have an effect on this quite
:29:17. > :29:21.quickly? We made one rack to cool suggestion which was invented to the
:29:22. > :29:37.budget negotiations which was ?160 million coming into councils. --
:29:38. > :29:48.practical suggestions John Swinney wants to fund schools while avoiding
:29:49. > :29:52.councils. Headteachers they wanted the managing ring fenced budgets,
:29:53. > :29:58.they want to lead their schools and be able to do that, working in
:29:59. > :30:06.school clusters. We're running out of time, in one sentence describe
:30:07. > :30:15.what this campaign is going to be about the year your party. One
:30:16. > :30:18.sentence for the Liberal Democrats, it's about representing you
:30:19. > :30:27.correctly and properly so you have a real champion so we don't end up in
:30:28. > :30:37.endless constitutional navel-gazing over independence. Do we need a
:30:38. > :30:43.sentence for a new? -- from you? Get Patrick Harvie in to join Caroline
:30:44. > :30:53.Lucas who does wonderful job in Westminster. Stop a Tory third term
:30:54. > :30:57.and send a message to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP that we don't
:30:58. > :31:05.want a second independence referendum. Continued revival in
:31:06. > :31:10.Scotland in sharing that the Conservatives have more MPs. You
:31:11. > :31:16.forgot to say to stop another independence referendum!
:31:17. > :31:26.I'm off message! Sending MPs from Scotland to stand up in Westminster
:31:27. > :31:31.against Theresa May and the Conservatives' austerity agenda. A
:31:32. > :31:32.lovely shot of you altogether there! Thank you for joining us.
:31:33. > :31:33.MSPs have backed controversial legislation to integrate
:31:34. > :31:35.the British Transport Police with Police Scotland.
:31:36. > :31:38.66 MSPs voted in favour of the Bill, with 44 against it.
:31:39. > :31:41.But among the concerns heard at last evening's Holyrood debate
:31:42. > :31:48.They've cited fears about passenger safety, staff career prospects,
:31:49. > :31:51.The Transport Minister Humza Yousaf tried to offer
:31:52. > :32:05.The aim in this bill is to establish a framework using these newly
:32:06. > :32:11.devolved powers to ensure that railway policing in Scotland is
:32:12. > :32:16.accountable to the people of Scotland. An important
:32:17. > :32:24.recommendation in the report is one seeking an assurance that the terms,
:32:25. > :32:28.conditions, benefits and pensions of PTP officers and staff will not be
:32:29. > :32:32.adversely affected on transferring to Police Scotland. I am happy to
:32:33. > :32:39.give that assurance today. The Scottish Government has listened
:32:40. > :32:43.closely to the issues raised and has offered a triple lock guarantee that
:32:44. > :32:48.secures jobs, pay and pensions through the course of integration.
:32:49. > :32:54.Should integration proceed, Police Scotland intends to maintain a
:32:55. > :32:59.specialist railway policing function within its broader structure. The
:33:00. > :33:04.policy memorandum states that this approach will retain the specialist
:33:05. > :33:13.skills, knowledge and experience that BT P officers and staff have
:33:14. > :33:20.built. However, retraining BTP officers and staff is largely
:33:21. > :33:26.dependent on whether their current terms, conditions and rights are
:33:27. > :33:31.guaranteed. Those representing BTP officers and staff have not yet been
:33:32. > :33:35.reassured. Clearly, this needs to be urgently resolved. The committee has
:33:36. > :33:43.therefore asked the Scottish Government to provide an update on
:33:44. > :33:51.progress during this debate, and to ensure that terms and conditions
:33:52. > :33:55.will not be adversely affected were integration to proceed. I thank the
:33:56. > :34:04.Cabinet Secretary for his update but remain extremely concerned that this
:34:05. > :34:08.is unresolved. Unlike those on the SNP benches, we recognise there is
:34:09. > :34:14.more than one way to achieve the outcome. The SNP has single-mindedly
:34:15. > :34:18.focused on the integration of BTP into Police Scotland, so much so
:34:19. > :34:21.that it did not bother to include alternative approaches in the
:34:22. > :34:29.consultation launched last summer. The paper sets out three procedures,
:34:30. > :34:35.including breaking up the BTP and absorbing its Scottish operations
:34:36. > :34:38.into Police Scotland, but in the BTA's experienced and professional
:34:39. > :34:42.opinion, this option could result in confusion over who would record and
:34:43. > :34:47.investigate crimes, risk compromising the joined up policing
:34:48. > :34:53.of railways and cross-border efforts to combat terrorism and extremism,
:34:54. > :34:57.all serious issues, all with serious implications. I would like to extend
:34:58. > :35:01.my thanks to the committee for the evidence sessions they have held,
:35:02. > :35:06.and as a substitute member, I was able to take part in the session
:35:07. > :35:09.with railway operators. It was the sessions that highlighted the number
:35:10. > :35:14.of concerns regarding this bill that has helped us reach our position
:35:15. > :35:19.today, and Scottish Labour will not be supporting the general principles
:35:20. > :35:23.of this bill. There is a division amongst members and during the
:35:24. > :35:26.course of this afternoon, I hope the Government will listen to these
:35:27. > :35:29.concerns, a tree to withdraw the bill, and work with interested
:35:30. > :35:33.parties and bodies to look at the full range of options available for
:35:34. > :35:40.the future of railway policing in Scotland. We have had responses from
:35:41. > :35:43.RMT today opposing the bill and raising significant concerns about
:35:44. > :35:48.Bieber ocean of specialised skills and expertise and the risks to
:35:49. > :35:51.safety and security. It has been argued we are here today as a result
:35:52. > :35:56.of the Smith Commission but it is worth remembering what was agreed to
:35:57. > :36:01.within the Smith Commission, which was for the vouchers are pretty bad
:36:02. > :36:05.but the gallon -- which was for the functions of the police service in
:36:06. > :36:11.Scotland to remain a devolved matter. -- to be a devolved matter.
:36:12. > :36:21.There has been some ill informed comment about the response to
:36:22. > :36:24.terrorism. It will be an entirely coordinated situation while this
:36:25. > :36:32.proposal to go ahead. The issue of timing. Even worth full integration
:36:33. > :36:36.of BTP felt to be the most sensible and logical route to take, and most
:36:37. > :36:41.witnesses did not, it can scarcely be claimed by any other than its
:36:42. > :36:45.most ardent supporters that this is an ideal time to contemplate such a
:36:46. > :36:54.move. Chronic levels of structural debt, a failed IT project, and
:36:55. > :36:58.morale that could certainly be better. Surely only Police
:36:59. > :37:01.Scotland's worst enemy could see this as an opportune moment have
:37:02. > :37:09.voiced by the change of the organisation. I remain open to being
:37:10. > :37:14.persuaded about the concerns I have set out, but if they are not
:37:15. > :37:15.addressed, Scottish Lib Dems will be unable to support the passing of
:37:16. > :37:24.this bill. Alf, this integration proposal, what
:37:25. > :37:30.do you make of it? It is part of a bigger picture, I think, isn't it?
:37:31. > :37:33.In a number of areas, the SNP Government progressively over ten
:37:34. > :37:39.years has sought to centralise quite a lot of things. They just recently
:37:40. > :37:46.had a rather bizarre and ultimately unsuccessful attempt at putting the
:37:47. > :37:54.two enterprise agencies together in one body, and then decided it wasn't
:37:55. > :37:59.a good idea after all. Whether it is a good idea for British Transport
:38:00. > :38:04.Police, I'm no great expert on policing structures, but it has been
:38:05. > :38:11.a separate entity. It is not my experience that Police Scotland as a
:38:12. > :38:19.unified police force has been and are now Lloyd express -- has been a
:38:20. > :38:24.complete success. You wonder what instinctively drives all of this on.
:38:25. > :38:29.On the other hand, people on the outside in this day and age will
:38:30. > :38:33.say, sorry, why do you have to have a special police force for the
:38:34. > :38:39.railways? Why not for the motorways? I doubt one person in ten or 100
:38:40. > :38:43.knows there is a separate police force for transport, for the
:38:44. > :38:48.railways. It is pretty decent Eric territory for most people, but it
:38:49. > :38:55.speaks to a kind of guiding principle when it comes to changing
:38:56. > :38:59.structures. The structural point I suppose that could be argued is that
:39:00. > :39:03.once they put in place Police Scotland and you didn't have
:39:04. > :39:06.regional police forces, I'm assuming that transport police has to be
:39:07. > :39:10.national. So you now have a national police force and you could put the
:39:11. > :39:17.national transport police into that, which you didn't have before. There
:39:18. > :39:19.are then legacy issues about entitlements and pensions and how
:39:20. > :39:23.that is integrated into the new structure. As we have seen in the
:39:24. > :39:27.past, that can cause problems as well, in the longer term. Back to
:39:28. > :39:32.the election, what do you think it will be about in the next few weeks?
:39:33. > :39:36.In Scotland, it is an odd one with general elections, because all that
:39:37. > :39:41.stuff we were talking about regarding education is technically
:39:42. > :39:43.irrelevant to this election. It is not strictly speaking relevant in
:39:44. > :39:49.the sense that it is a devolved issue. I think they're going to make
:39:50. > :39:52.big pictures about things like education, the future of the health
:39:53. > :39:58.service, and they will come and go as the issue of the day, but the
:39:59. > :40:03.bigger battle in Scotland really is about the extent to which that
:40:04. > :40:10.extraordinary result two years ago, where the SNP got 50% of the vote
:40:11. > :40:15.and all but three of the MPs, how much retrenchment back from that
:40:16. > :40:21.there will be because of this recent surge in support for the Tories in
:40:22. > :40:27.Scotland. Some of us are old enough to remember when Tories were still
:40:28. > :40:33.quite popular in Scotland, and even Glasgow City Council had progressive
:40:34. > :40:41.local Tories who were quite a major force. In the historical sense, it's
:40:42. > :40:45.not that unusual, but it is unusual, given the dog years after Thatcher's
:40:46. > :40:51.arrival in power and the Tories almost being wiped off the electoral
:40:52. > :40:54.map. Briefly, can you see Labour... If this is really about
:40:55. > :41:07.independence, and it seems to be this make -- to some extent a proxy
:41:08. > :41:11.for it, is there anything that Labour or the Lib Dems can do to
:41:12. > :41:16.steal that away from the Tories? I think both Labour and the Lib Dems
:41:17. > :41:21.might pick up the odd seat here and there. Labour might hold the one
:41:22. > :41:25.they've got, the Lib Dems might hold the one they have in the islands.
:41:26. > :41:36.Apart from that, it will be marginal change, I think, and the big battle
:41:37. > :41:43.will be how far this search, whether tactical or whatever, -- how this
:41:44. > :41:47.surge for the Tories, how far it goes.
:41:48. > :41:52.Let's get some final thoughts from Alf Young.
:41:53. > :41:59.Back to David. What do you think the big themes will be? We are in
:42:00. > :42:03.political no man's land. All the parties now have got into the habit
:42:04. > :42:09.of having campaign launches, and then they have manifesto launches.
:42:10. > :42:14.We have had a campaign launched this week, the manifestos next week. We
:42:15. > :42:17.are getting individual policies but not the full picture and it is only
:42:18. > :42:22.when we see the full picture and we can go through it and say, money you
:42:23. > :42:26.want to spend on this you have already said he will race from that,
:42:27. > :42:30.that will give us more information. That will come next week, but I
:42:31. > :42:36.think without a shadow of a doubt the election down here is very much
:42:37. > :42:41.being framed with Brexit in mind, and I think, quite frankly, it will
:42:42. > :42:45.come down to who the electorate feel best represent them in the Brexit
:42:46. > :42:51.negotiations - Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn. Just casting an eye over the
:42:52. > :42:58.local election results in England last week, what became very apparent
:42:59. > :43:02.is that the Ukip vote collapsed, and by and large, the Ukip vote in
:43:03. > :43:05.England went across to the Conservatives. What had happened
:43:06. > :43:08.previously, and certainly in previous elections, is that
:43:09. > :43:16.supporters who had perhaps gone from Labour to Ukip, it now appears that
:43:17. > :43:21.Ukip supporters, if local elections are to be believed, are going back
:43:22. > :43:25.to the Conservatives. The Conservatives are very bullish,
:43:26. > :43:28.trying to talk down any speculation of a landslide. They say they will
:43:29. > :43:33.be fighting for every seat. You only have to see whether Prime Minister
:43:34. > :43:37.is going. They are putting a lot of effort in the east and West Midlands
:43:38. > :43:43.in England, which has a clutch of marginal seats. Frankly, that is
:43:44. > :43:47.where UK elections are always won or lost, in those marginal seats.
:43:48. > :43:52.Speaking to Labour people, they are very downbeat at the moment. No one
:43:53. > :43:56.I have spoken to from any party thinks that Labour will win this
:43:57. > :44:00.election. Speaking to Labour people, a lot of them are very downcast and
:44:01. > :44:08.think it could be a very bad day for them on the 8th of June. Yeah, one
:44:09. > :44:13.of the things that makes this more surreal is that you were saying to
:44:14. > :44:18.some extent this will be about Brexit and which version of it you
:44:19. > :44:22.want. Of course, the Government hasn't made it entirely clear
:44:23. > :44:26.exactly what it is it wants to negotiate for. Know, and that is
:44:27. > :44:30.incredibly frustrating from a journalistic point of view, but also
:44:31. > :44:34.from the point of view of the electorate. It is one of those
:44:35. > :44:39.campaigns were, by and large, the politicians are not out meeting the
:44:40. > :44:42.electorate. We are really quite constrained in the opportunities we
:44:43. > :44:46.get to interview senior politicians, so from that point of view, it is
:44:47. > :44:50.very frustrating. But I think perhaps one of the reasons we are
:44:51. > :44:53.not getting more information is because the Government at the
:44:54. > :44:57.moment, if it is re-elected, does not know quite how it is going to
:44:58. > :45:06.negotiate this. It says it wants to do X, Y and Z, but you might find
:45:07. > :45:11.that the European community, when it comes back after the election, says,
:45:12. > :45:15.you may want that, but we want other things which are far more important
:45:16. > :45:21.to us. Whoever wins, there will be a very long, protracted and tough
:45:22. > :45:25.negotiation about the ghosts -- about Brexit. We are having an
:45:26. > :45:32.election about a subject we have no idea how the endgame is going to
:45:33. > :45:36.apply. -- is going to play out. Thank you, David. Alf, the other
:45:37. > :45:42.issue that arises is, do you agree that this will be about Brexit? At
:45:43. > :45:52.least down south? Or will it become about other things by default? It's
:45:53. > :45:59.bound to be about Brexit to a degree, but the problem about doing
:46:00. > :46:11.that is that there is so little that we know about negotiations to come.
:46:12. > :46:17.Theresa May's favourite words are strong and stable, I'll stick up the
:46:18. > :46:25.country. Would you trust that? It will come up north and south of the
:46:26. > :46:28.border. This stories today about GPs in European countries who are
:46:29. > :46:38.staying here who will probably be able to stay. It won't all be about
:46:39. > :46:43.that. Will it be about tax and spending? Well, if it's conducted in
:46:44. > :46:48.the way that we think, money for education, more money for the health
:46:49. > :46:57.service and so on, another raid on corporate taxation, what will we put
:46:58. > :47:03.it back up to? Set that rate against what Macron might do in France, or
:47:04. > :47:15.what Trump finally does in America with corporate taxation, all of the
:47:16. > :47:20.companies we depend on in our economies are global, so they will
:47:21. > :47:27.decide where they stay and where they pay their tax. I'm finding my
:47:28. > :47:30.appetite for more of the same, diminishing with the day. We have
:47:31. > :47:37.only started. That's a bit of a worry. Can you see a big Corbyn
:47:38. > :47:44.breakthrough? Note. I don't see what the basis of that would be. He had a
:47:45. > :47:53.chance yesterday to say we are not going to seek to stay in afterwards
:47:54. > :47:56.and he fudged it. Thank you, Alf. We will be back at the weekend with
:47:57. > :48:05.Sunday politics. See you then. Because you're the one
:48:06. > :48:14.that passes the money across. This is the third time your daughter
:48:15. > :48:19.has being trafficked.