:00:20. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to the first Politics Scotland of 2012. The new
:00:26. > :00:29.political year starts with a bang. We have a date for the referendum.
:00:29. > :00:34.Edinburgh and London now embark on a mammoth tussle ahead of the
:00:34. > :00:41.historic vote. A date for the referendum has to be the autumn of
:00:41. > :00:44.2014, because this is the biggest decision the people of Scotland has
:00:44. > :00:48.made for 300 years. The constitutional genie is now
:00:48. > :00:52.well and truly out of the bottle. And here at Westminster, a rare
:00:52. > :00:57.show of unity between Labour and the Conservatives on the issue.
:00:57. > :01:00.It has been quite a week. And it is still only Wednesday. London and
:01:00. > :01:04.Edinburgh's competing plans for an independence referendum have been
:01:04. > :01:07.raised again at Westminster today. The Labour leader has called for
:01:07. > :01:11.cross-party talks. The Prime Minister has repeated that the vote
:01:11. > :01:13.in autumn 2014 would be unlawful under existing devolved powers. Let
:01:13. > :01:15.us discuss this further with Professor John Curtice of
:01:15. > :01:22.Strathclyde University and political editor Brian Taylor. Good
:01:22. > :01:26.afternoon to you both. Brian, it has been some week already. Before
:01:26. > :01:31.we get into various issues, can you give an update on where we stand?
:01:31. > :01:36.We have gone from a period on Sunday and Monday where there was
:01:36. > :01:41.something of an aggressive tone from Westminster, a sense of
:01:41. > :01:47.putting Alex Salmond in his box, and perhaps understandably a at an
:01:47. > :01:52.assertive response from Mr Salmond. Then we had Michael Moore's
:01:52. > :01:55.statement, which was more conciliatory in tone, of wanting to
:01:55. > :02:00.work with the Scottish Government to find a resolution to what he
:02:00. > :02:05.believes a legal issues with the referendum that Alex Salmon does
:02:05. > :02:09.not believe exists. We have had responses from Alex Salmond that he
:02:09. > :02:14.can top that because Fiat, but will not because seat everything away.
:02:14. > :02:18.He is negotiating from a position of said -- from a position of
:02:18. > :02:23.strength. The Scottish Government will want to run the referendum
:02:23. > :02:30.here, a founding and basing it in Scotland, setting the date of what
:02:30. > :02:33.and 2014, which Alex Salmond announced last night. And the
:02:33. > :02:39.possibility of a second question on devo max. And also the possibility
:02:39. > :02:44.of 16-17-year-olds being allowed to vote. Alex Salmond is not making
:02:44. > :02:48.concessions on any of these points down the line, but there may be
:02:48. > :02:54.concessions on both sides if the referendum goes ahead. It will go
:02:54. > :03:01.ahead, but it has to be accepted. Concessions on both sides. Do you
:03:01. > :03:06.think we are reaching some kind of agreement? We're closer, but not
:03:06. > :03:13.there, and no guarantee we will secure an agreement. Mr Salmond
:03:13. > :03:17.announcing the referendum in autumn 2014, towards the beginning of the
:03:17. > :03:22.time frame he had given as, that means the difference between
:03:22. > :03:29.Hermann the UK coalition Government, which is 2013, is not so great. --
:03:29. > :03:33.the difference between him and the UK coalition Government. But the
:03:33. > :03:36.16-17-year-olds will be allowed to vote will not be so central. I
:03:37. > :03:41.think the one that is the real difficult issue potentially is the
:03:41. > :03:46.question of whether or not there will be one or two referendum
:03:46. > :03:50.questions. For the time being, even though the SNP say the preferences
:03:50. > :03:55.for one question, because all they are interested in his independence,
:03:55. > :04:01.they are insisting they want to keep alive the possibility of
:04:01. > :04:09.including devolution max. I will just interrupt, we are going live
:04:09. > :04:13.to Holyrood, where there has been a point of order.
:04:13. > :04:18.They took 47 questions from members of parliament. In Scotland, the
:04:18. > :04:22.First Minister announced his date for the referendum, not to the
:04:22. > :04:27.Scottish Parliament but to Sky News. Ryan Taylor disputes that fight
:04:27. > :04:30.outside. Given this decision relates to what they have First
:04:30. > :04:35.Minister called the first question -- the biggest question for
:04:35. > :04:42.Scotstoun 300 years, that the Government is involved with the
:04:42. > :04:48.respect agenda, will they make a statement to this Parliament today?
:04:48. > :04:55.Will you not be able to respond positively to such a risk is --
:04:55. > :04:58.such respect when it to be made? response to they are point of order,
:04:58. > :05:08.I have had no request from the Government or time to make a
:05:08. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:14.statement today. The next item of business is a debate on motion
:05:14. > :05:18.number 167 on education and Culture Committee's inquiry... That is the
:05:18. > :05:22.presiding officer replying to a point of order from the Lib Dem
:05:22. > :05:28.leader asking why did date of the referendum was announced to Brian
:05:29. > :05:33.Taylor, not the parliament. What do you make of that? Just to pick up
:05:33. > :05:38.on that point, I spoke about the first break been on BBC Radio
:05:38. > :05:43.Scotland, but I am not competitive about these things. It is an
:05:43. > :05:48.intriguing point that he is making. Some are suggesting that last
:05:48. > :05:54.night's denies that was rushed and forced by circumstances. -- that
:05:54. > :05:58.last night's statement. This has been worked on for quite some time.
:05:58. > :06:07.Is it possible that the announcement last night was handy
:06:07. > :06:11.in that it -- in that it worked alongside the Secretary of State
:06:11. > :06:14.for Scotland's statement? This will ultimately be a Parliamentary
:06:14. > :06:19.matter and when it comes to the state than being made in terms of
:06:19. > :06:22.announcing the details of the proposed consultation and also down
:06:22. > :06:27.the line a referendum Bill, if it is to be processed through this
:06:27. > :06:32.parliament, that will certainly be a Parliamentary matter. It is
:06:32. > :06:35.almost undoubtedly true that if the same point of order had been raised
:06:35. > :06:40.with John Bercow in relation to a UK Government, John Bercow would
:06:40. > :06:43.not have given such a short reply. He is insistent that ministers
:06:43. > :06:49.should make their announcements and Parliament and he would have
:06:49. > :06:55.insisted ministers should come to the chamber. Just on the date of
:06:55. > :07:00.autumn 2014, not so much a date as a season, what do you make of that?
:07:00. > :07:06.Why is 2014 significant? Many people claim it is a good time to
:07:06. > :07:12.do it, because Scotland may well feel particularly nationalist with
:07:12. > :07:18.the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, the Commonwealth Games,
:07:18. > :07:23.where Scotland is its own country, but the truth is it was all so
:07:23. > :07:28.obvious that that is a clear and obvious time for doing it. It
:07:28. > :07:33.Scotland were to vote yes, there will have to be Nicosia she's
:07:33. > :07:37.between the Scottish and UK governments. Presumably the
:07:37. > :07:42.Scottish Government want to be around for those so. Leaving it too
:07:42. > :07:47.late and their term, there would be election -- there would be an
:07:47. > :07:52.election and the SNP would be out of power. Thank you for joining us.
:07:52. > :07:58.Let us go back to Holyrood and speak to Nicola Sturgeon. Good
:07:58. > :08:06.afternoon. I just want your reaction to that. Back of order
:08:06. > :08:11.from Willie Rennie. 2014 it is an important date chiming with other
:08:11. > :08:17.significant ones. Why was that announced? The final decision will
:08:17. > :08:20.be Parliament, as Brian Taylor just said. The First Minister set out
:08:20. > :08:26.clearly yesterday why we have arrived at the conclusion of a
:08:26. > :08:30.preferred date of autumn 2014. We are about to have a consultation,
:08:30. > :08:33.then a legislator process, a convention in Scotland of a six-
:08:33. > :08:38.month period between the passing of legislation under any referendum
:08:38. > :08:43.taking place. We do not want to coincide with the Commonwealth
:08:43. > :08:48.Games or European elections in June 2014, so that takes us to autumn
:08:48. > :08:52.2014, giving maximum time for the people in Scotland to discuss and
:08:52. > :08:56.debate this extremely important issue, the most important issue the
:08:57. > :09:02.people Scotland will have taken him 300 years. The First Minister talks
:09:02. > :09:05.about the respect agenda from West Minister, but wasn't this
:09:05. > :09:10.disrespectful to announce this when the Secretary of State was on his
:09:11. > :09:13.feet in the House of Commons? Scottish cabinet was scheduled to
:09:13. > :09:17.discuss and sign of the consultation paper that will launch
:09:17. > :09:21.before the end of this month. The difference between the Scottish and
:09:21. > :09:25.Westminster governments is we have thought about this for some time.
:09:25. > :09:30.Everything coming from Westminster would suggest that they have been
:09:30. > :09:35.rushing it, grasping at it, trying to wrest control. I think that is
:09:35. > :09:39.why we have ended up in such a mess this week. But we are where we are
:09:39. > :09:42.now and will discuss matters with the Westminster Government. But
:09:42. > :09:47.there is an important principle at stake for the Scottish Government,
:09:47. > :09:51.that the referendum should be made, built and arranged in Scotland and
:09:51. > :09:56.the people of Scotland should decide. And it has been a busy
:09:56. > :10:00.couple of days. What are your reactions to Westminster? Ed
:10:00. > :10:03.Miliband wanted immediate cross- party talks about the timing and
:10:03. > :10:08.nature of the question and the involvement of the Electoral
:10:08. > :10:11.Commission. What is your reaction? There will be lots of debates.
:10:11. > :10:16.There is one tomorrow morning on other matters mentioned here. We
:10:16. > :10:20.will set out thinking on all of that and the consultation we will
:10:20. > :10:24.publish within the next few weeks. The most telling thing in
:10:24. > :10:29.Westminster earlier is that Labour was siding with the Tory Liberal
:10:29. > :10:33.coalition. I do not think that will go down well in Scotland. Whatever
:10:33. > :10:38.the people in Scotland think about independence, one of four, against
:10:38. > :10:41.it or have not made up their mind, the overwhelming consensus is that
:10:41. > :10:45.the decision should be made in Scotland. I do not think people
:10:45. > :10:50.will appreciate a Westminster coalition tried to wrest control
:10:50. > :10:56.away. I want to talk about that win Ed Miliband made about the
:10:56. > :10:59.Electoral Commission. A Scottish spokesman has accused the Electoral
:10:59. > :11:04.Commission of been politicised and questioned their independence.
:11:04. > :11:11.Would you question that the body that run the 2007 agger successful
:11:11. > :11:13.2011 election? I will not get into questions of any body. We will
:11:13. > :11:18.publish the consultation paper would be in the next couple of
:11:18. > :11:22.weeks, which will set out thinking on an entire range of matters. The
:11:22. > :11:26.key principle we are discussing this week is the principle that it
:11:26. > :11:32.is for the Scottish Parliament and people to be in charge, both of
:11:32. > :11:36.this process and the final outcome. On that principle, opinion rests
:11:36. > :11:41.with the opinion of the SNP Government. We have your
:11:41. > :11:44.consultation coming out on the 23rd January. As the Westminster
:11:44. > :11:49.coverage have their consultation coming out. On this afternoon, what
:11:49. > :11:53.I knew it issues with the Westminster Government? How can we
:11:53. > :11:59.reach consensus for as the Prime Minister said a clear, legal
:11:59. > :12:01.decisive and fair referendum? will be a clear, legal decisive
:12:01. > :12:07.referendum and the Scottish Parliament has the ability to hold
:12:07. > :12:11.that. As we have made clear earlier this week, we do not think we need
:12:11. > :12:16.a transfer of legal power, but we will not stand in the we of
:12:16. > :12:22.Westminster wanting to do that. What we object to is any octet --
:12:22. > :12:26.is any attempt to attach strings or conditions to that. We will talk to
:12:26. > :12:29.the Westminster Government. The key point is the people of Scotland
:12:29. > :12:37.should get the right to choose their own future and will get to do
:12:37. > :12:43.that in the autumn of 2014. Times described devo max as maquis.
:12:43. > :12:49.You think the question is getting murkier and it could be dropped and
:12:49. > :12:52.just have a simple yes or no question? We stand what
:12:52. > :12:56.independence and believe in independence. That is the option we
:12:56. > :13:04.want and is the one we will campaign for, but we are democrats
:13:04. > :13:06.and are not the only people with an there should be another option on
:13:07. > :13:11.the ballot paper, that has to be listened to and it is wrong to rule
:13:11. > :13:15.that out at the moment. If you listen to other parties, these
:13:15. > :13:18.parties now trying to dictate the choice and restrict the choice the
:13:18. > :13:23.Scottish people should have, at the same parties that spent the last
:13:23. > :13:28.four years trying to block a referendum altogether. The decision
:13:28. > :13:33.rests with the Scottish people and that is how it should and will be.
:13:33. > :13:38.Deputy First Minister, thank you for joining us.
:13:38. > :13:40.Let us turn attention to another issue now. In the chamber at
:13:40. > :13:43.Holyrood, they are debating the educational attainment of looked
:13:43. > :13:47.after children or, as they are sometimes known, children in care.
:13:47. > :13:54.I am joined by Brian Evans of the charity Children First. Good
:13:54. > :13:58.afternoon. What are you looking for this afternoon? We are looking for
:13:58. > :14:03.continued and growing investment in the early years for children. We
:14:03. > :14:06.recognise that children up to the age of three, their brains develop
:14:06. > :14:10.most and they do not want to wait until children are in school before
:14:10. > :14:14.drawing attention to the fact some children are attaining less well
:14:14. > :14:19.than others. It is continued and growing investment in the early
:14:19. > :14:24.years for children. And we know that significant lead in those
:14:24. > :14:28.early years the attachment with parents, style of parenting, the
:14:28. > :14:32.environment in the home, whether parents play with their children,
:14:32. > :14:35.whether parents read with their children, all of those things are
:14:35. > :14:41.important for development and impact on the educational
:14:41. > :14:43.attainment of children as children get older. All these things, the
:14:43. > :14:48.intervention at early as possible stages, is what we are looking
:14:48. > :14:51.bored. What comparisons are there between the educational attainment
:14:51. > :14:56.of looked after children and children who grew up with parents
:14:56. > :15:01.of other guardians at home? When you look at all the factors, issues
:15:01. > :15:05.to do with child attendance at school, attainment at school, the
:15:05. > :15:10.positive destinations which have achieved when children at Leeds
:15:10. > :15:15.School, although those a less good for children who have been looked
:15:15. > :15:19.after. -- when children leave school. You can look at children
:15:19. > :15:25.looked after at home or in residential or foster care, those
:15:25. > :15:30.looked after in their own homes, in all those areas, the achievements
:15:30. > :15:33.are less good than those in residential or foster care. It is
:15:33. > :15:43.those looked after at home, we want to make sure the support from their
:15:43. > :15:46.families is there, make sure their What difference is there in
:15:46. > :15:54.spending money in the early years, and those who are post 16
:15:54. > :15:57.education? We need to think about all the factors in choke line. If
:15:57. > :16:05.you intervene early, you can improve their life chances on a
:16:05. > :16:09.whole range of areas, so for terms of health, emotional health,
:16:09. > :16:14.education, and in terms of avoiding negative outcomes. For India -- for
:16:14. > :16:17.instance, involvement in youth crime, and teenage pregnancy. If
:16:17. > :16:24.you intervene early, you can avoid lots of negative outcomes, and
:16:24. > :16:32.improve the other outcomes than when you try to intervene at a
:16:32. > :16:38.later stage. Even in primary school, the gap between the most and least
:16:38. > :16:48.advantage is significant. We will return to you and a second. Let us
:16:48. > :16:51.
:16:51. > :16:55.to meet some of these tireless individuals during their visit to
:16:55. > :17:01.Glasgow in November, and I would like to pay tribute to the work
:17:01. > :17:05.they do. This debate is unusual because there is no report to
:17:05. > :17:11.debate. We wanted to do things differently, to try to get the
:17:11. > :17:14.views of members across the chamber, before we wrote the report. This
:17:14. > :17:21.parliament is beginning to think about the reform agenda, crosses
:17:21. > :17:26.many committees, and perhaps this is our start but others wish to
:17:26. > :17:30.follow. On the issue as important as this, I am delighted that all
:17:30. > :17:34.members, regardless of whether they are on the educational committee,
:17:34. > :17:39.regardless of their party allegiance, and regardless of the
:17:39. > :17:42.area of Scotland represent, have the opportunity to influence the
:17:42. > :17:45.committee's final report. I look forward to hearing the
:17:45. > :17:50.contributions. Members will listen carefully this morning, and my hope
:17:50. > :17:58.is that this debate will shape our report that is robust, rigorous and
:17:58. > :18:02.informative. Hopefully this will contribute to making a difference
:18:02. > :18:06.to looked after children. Many of these children have been failed.
:18:06. > :18:14.Betws not keep on repeating that failure. Let us get it right for a
:18:14. > :18:23.pre- looked after child. But us get some reaction. That was
:18:23. > :18:29.Stuart Maxwell. Do you think he was saying what you were looking for?
:18:29. > :18:39.Yes, it is a good point to try to take it away from political agenda
:18:39. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:43.as. It has -- one issue that has become political is whether a child
:18:43. > :18:47.has adopted or not, and we want to take that out of the political
:18:47. > :18:51.frame. It is focused on what is best for the child. Whether a child
:18:51. > :18:55.should be adopted or not, and how quickly that should happen is an
:18:56. > :19:02.issue that should be taken on assessment of that child's needs,
:19:02. > :19:07.the ability of the parents to care for the child and whether there is
:19:07. > :19:10.appropriate placement. That is one area that has become politically
:19:10. > :19:13.fraught, and I welcome the fact that he is saying that these issues
:19:13. > :19:23.should be taken out of the political friend, and they should
:19:23. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:30.be addressed in a non-political we. Was that a problem in the past?
:19:30. > :19:38.clear drive for the SNP is to intervene at an earlier stage. It
:19:38. > :19:43.is not necessarily a bigger problem in the past, but we want to form a
:19:43. > :19:47.collaborative approach between all parties, and see what evidence is
:19:47. > :19:57.out there, and move forward on that evidence, rather than on a
:19:57. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:02.political approach. Brian Evans, from the charity children first a -
:20:02. > :20:12.- Children First. Still to come: I passionately
:20:12. > :20:15.
:20:15. > :20:20.believe that we are stronger David Cameron fields questions in
:20:20. > :20:25.Prime Minister's Questions. The Scottish Green Party are pro-
:20:25. > :20:30.independence, and have called for the referendum to be called, as
:20:30. > :20:37.they put it, without strings. Patrick Harvie is with us. What is
:20:37. > :20:47.your reaction to the tumultuous events over the past few days?
:20:47. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:55.I would love to see the programme the thick of it deal with the past
:20:55. > :20:59.few days. It has been very satirical. However, as things
:20:59. > :21:08.settle down, after the bizarre events of the last few days, I
:21:08. > :21:18.think both governments have the opportunity to give ground a little,
:21:18. > :21:25.
:21:25. > :21:29.the SNP could... Scotland should determine matters, not have them
:21:29. > :21:39.attached conditions to the power that the UK Government wanted all.
:21:39. > :21:42.If we could have some ground given by both governments, we to move on
:21:42. > :21:47.to questions about policy and division. That is where the debate
:21:47. > :21:50.should be. What kind of country do we want to be? That is the point
:21:50. > :21:54.that the Prime Minister and Ed Miliband were making, to try to get
:21:54. > :22:00.away from the process. If we can keep on the process bought a little
:22:00. > :22:04.bit longer, you mentioned a lulling 16 and 17 year-olds are the board.
:22:04. > :22:10.Why is that so important? Why do you think the UK Government are
:22:10. > :22:14.opposed to that? They do not seem to want to debate about that in
:22:14. > :22:24.relation to the referendum or the wider electoral system. I am open
:22:24. > :22:27.to the debate about this. A referendum about Scotland's future,
:22:27. > :22:32.there is an additional argument that says that people who are
:22:32. > :22:35.growing up, people there are maybe just below the 18 years old
:22:35. > :22:40.threshold, are going to be living their lives in the Scotland that is
:22:40. > :22:44.decided by this referendum, and I think many of them who want to be
:22:44. > :22:49.politically engaged, who we should want and welcome their political
:22:49. > :22:52.engagement and interest, they will be more encouraged to take an
:22:52. > :22:56.interest in the future of the country if they have got a say.
:22:56. > :23:00.This is a good opportunity to move on the debate about whether 16 and
:23:00. > :23:06.17 year-olds who pay tax, who can work and have other aspects of
:23:06. > :23:16.their lives that are addled, should have a say in the Ritz -- the
:23:16. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:54.running of the country. If the SNP Thank you for joining us.
:23:54. > :23:58.I am joined by Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University.
:23:58. > :24:03.Just to pick up on the electoral commission., how do you think this
:24:03. > :24:11.will come out in the wash? Patrick Harvie said the bigwigs on the
:24:11. > :24:17.commission might end up being in the Scottish commission. Part of
:24:17. > :24:22.the reservation that they have is that this should be a referendum
:24:22. > :24:26.made and undertaken by Scott and, so being run by an ordination --
:24:26. > :24:30.organisation that is UK wage may at least be part of their objections.
:24:31. > :24:33.The obvious potential source of compromises that may be that
:24:33. > :24:41.Scotland Commissioner John McCormick should be regarded as the
:24:41. > :24:45.accounting officer. In practice, the officers of the commission,
:24:45. > :24:50.should perhaps still be called upon to run the referendum. It has to be
:24:50. > :24:56.said, if you look at the draft that the SNP came up with before the
:24:56. > :25:05.2011 victory, they are very close to the UK rules. There are only
:25:05. > :25:09.minor changes. Let us focus on the legality issue.
:25:09. > :25:13.This has been the main thing of the Westminster government. Where has
:25:13. > :25:17.this come from? Before Christmas it may be did not seem such an
:25:17. > :25:24.important point, and there was talk of a consultative referendum. Was
:25:24. > :25:31.that bubbling and are the surface? There has always been doubt as to
:25:31. > :25:36.whether the SNP could Crafter referendum that would be within the
:25:36. > :25:40.confidence of the Scottish Parliament, given that the issue of
:25:40. > :25:44.this constitutional position, and the Union of the crimes between
:25:44. > :25:48.England and Scotland, was a so- called reserved matter in Scotland,
:25:48. > :25:52.and that is something that still lies within the remit of the
:25:52. > :25:56.Westminster Parliament. The way that the SNP have tried to deal
:25:56. > :26:03.with this is to say it if we craft the question and a certain kind of
:26:03. > :26:06.way, for example by talking about asking the Scottish government to
:26:06. > :26:16.hold negotiations that might lead to independence, we might think
:26:16. > :26:22.
:26:22. > :26:31.that we are safe and able. But any question that is worded to
:26:31. > :26:34.encourage independence is outside the remit. There is a distinguished
:26:34. > :26:37.professor in Edinburgh that says the Scottish Parliament could have
:26:37. > :26:41.the constitutional ability to do this, and another equally famous
:26:41. > :26:46.one in Glasgow things that they would not. It is an area of dispute,
:26:46. > :26:52.and one could see how it is possible that this might go through
:26:52. > :26:54.the courts. Thank you very much. The issue of
:26:54. > :26:57.the independence referendum dominated Scottish questions at
:26:57. > :27:02.Westminster this morning. We will have coverage of that after this
:27:02. > :27:05.programme. Here is a flavour of what happened.
:27:05. > :27:12.Will the Minister acknowledged that international companies investing
:27:12. > :27:21.in Scotland since the election of the SNP Scottish government and
:27:21. > :27:27.include Hewlett-Packard, does the... What I acknowledge his these
:27:27. > :27:29.companies have invested in spite of the uncertainty. Think of the level
:27:29. > :27:34.of investment Scotland could achieve if there was not
:27:34. > :27:40.uncertainty. Angus Robertson for. That is the usual mantra be here
:27:40. > :27:44.from the Government, so perhaps he can answer Scotland's leading
:27:44. > :27:49.entrepreneur, who said, business is not concerned about the
:27:49. > :27:53.independence referendum. Whilst many of us in business are
:27:53. > :27:57.convinced about is that the prospect and future of the country
:27:57. > :28:01.depends upon securing economic powers through constitutional
:28:01. > :28:08.change. Will the UK Government dropped its bullish conditions so
:28:08. > :28:13.we can secure the change? -- it's foolish conditions?
:28:13. > :28:18.He is entitled to his opinion, as is any other citizen of Scotland.
:28:18. > :28:24.And I am sure you will encourage them to contribute to our
:28:24. > :28:29.consultation on the independence referendum. There will be an
:28:29. > :28:31.independence referendum in 2014, decided by the people of Scotland.
:28:31. > :28:35.If the Secretary of State is so concerned about the legal powers of
:28:35. > :28:41.the referendum, why does he not devolve the legal powers without
:28:41. > :28:46.condition, and I see the Prime Minister has walked an honest
:28:46. > :28:54.debate. I would encourage him to come to Scotland as much as
:28:54. > :28:58.possible,... The Prime Minister will be a full
:28:58. > :29:01.participant in the debate, as will all people across the United
:29:01. > :29:06.Kingdom. What is important is that we have a referendum made in
:29:06. > :29:15.Scotland for the people in Scotland about this and future in Scotland.
:29:15. > :29:18.-- about our future. Before we can get near this, we have to make sure
:29:18. > :29:23.it is illegal. I hope the Scottish government will work with us to
:29:23. > :29:27.ensure that is the case. Let us stay at Westminster for
:29:27. > :29:30.Prime Minister's Questions. In an unusual outbreak of consensus,
:29:30. > :29:34.David Cameron and Ed Miliband stated their commitment to the
:29:34. > :29:40.union. The Labour leader called for cross-party talks on the referendum
:29:40. > :29:45.in Scott and. We believe the United Kingdom
:29:45. > :29:49.benefits the people of Scotland and the people of the best of United
:29:49. > :29:53.Kingdom in equal measure. We are stronger together. Does the Prime
:29:53. > :29:57.Minister agree that we must make the case for the union not simply
:29:57. > :30:03.against separatism, but the positive case about the shared
:30:03. > :30:07.benefits to us all about Scotland's part in the United Kingdom? The
:30:07. > :30:17.shared economic interests, the shared institutions, Defence forces
:30:17. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:24.and the BBC, and the shared values This is an area where we are in
:30:24. > :30:27.100% agreement. I pass to believe in the future of our United Kingdom,
:30:27. > :30:32.stronger together rather than breaking apart. I am sad we are
:30:32. > :30:37.even having this debate, but we have to respect the fact that
:30:37. > :30:41.Scotland voted for a separatist party at the elections. The first
:30:41. > :30:46.thing that is right to do is make E-Clear the legal position about a
:30:46. > :30:52.referendum, which is what the Scottish Secretary has been doing.
:30:52. > :30:57.-- make clear. We want a referendum made in Scotland and held in
:30:57. > :31:02.Scotland. I look forward to have been the debate, because there have
:31:02. > :31:06.been too many in the SNP who are happy to talk about the process,
:31:06. > :31:11.but do not want to talk about the substance. I sometimes feel
:31:11. > :31:20.listening to them it is not a referendum at the want, it is
:31:20. > :31:27.another referendum. Let us keep our mac country together. This is not
:31:27. > :31:32.about a fight about process between the Westminster Government and the
:31:32. > :31:35.Westminster -- between Westminster and Scottish Government. Or between
:31:35. > :31:39.the Prime Minister and First Minister. We need immediate cross-
:31:39. > :31:42.party talks in Scotland about timing of the referendum, the
:31:42. > :31:49.nature of the questions and a vital involvement of the Electoral
:31:49. > :31:53.Commission. The Scottish Government was elected what an overwhelming
:31:53. > :32:01.mandate to deliver an independence referendum in the second half of
:32:01. > :32:06.the Parliamentary term. It is that back. In contrast, the Conservative
:32:06. > :32:12.Party has less members of parliament than there are giant
:32:12. > :32:18.pandas in Edinburgh Zoo. White is the Prime Minister tried to emulate
:32:18. > :32:22.Margaret Thatcher by dictating to Scotland? Why it the opposite, a be
:32:22. > :32:27.want to give Scotland the power to hold a legal referendum. -- quite
:32:27. > :32:33.the opposite, we want. Quite across this house, there is uniform belief
:32:33. > :32:37.that needs to happen so discussions can be entered into about timing,
:32:38. > :32:42.the nature of the referendum, to make sure it is fair, decisive, the
:32:42. > :32:46.people of Scotland deserve nothing less. Let us cross live to
:32:46. > :32:49.Westminster now. Standing by on College Green is Westminster
:32:49. > :32:54.Correspondent David Porter with a panel of guests after an historic
:32:54. > :32:59.week in politics. It has been. And it is only
:32:59. > :33:03.Wednesday. Who knows what will happen in the next couple of days?
:33:03. > :33:08.To talk about those topics and going forward, I am joined by four
:33:08. > :33:14.guests who know the Scottish scene well. Some are responsible for
:33:14. > :33:20.making part of the policy. David Mundell, Margaret Curran, Malcolm
:33:20. > :33:27.Bruce and Stewart Hosie. Stewart Hosie, let me begin with you, did
:33:27. > :33:36.Alex Salmond announce a referendum date because of the initiative that
:33:36. > :33:41.had happened down here? No mac, absolutely not. -- no. The one
:33:41. > :33:46.thing we conceit is that Alex played a blinder on this and was
:33:46. > :33:51.not bounced into it by anything the UK Government did. Malcolm Bruce,
:33:52. > :33:59.do you can car? It was not heeded it just as Michael Moore made his
:33:59. > :34:03.statement. -- do you agree? He did not seem to respect a Scottish
:34:03. > :34:08.Parliament either. But the situation has now moved on, we now
:34:08. > :34:12.have a certain date. What needs to be clear is the question is legal,
:34:12. > :34:16.fair and decisive and we could move to the debate as to whether
:34:17. > :34:23.Scotland should leave the union or not. This has moved the debate
:34:23. > :34:27.firmly into that camp. Margaret Curran, one striking thing is the
:34:27. > :34:31.outbreak of unity between your party and the coalition Government.
:34:32. > :34:36.I think what is important is this does not descend into squabbles.
:34:36. > :34:40.But that is between Alex Salmond and David Cameron particularly,
:34:40. > :34:47.because the referendum belongs to the people of Scotland. Process is
:34:47. > :34:52.important, but we need to get on to Scotland's future. David Mundell,
:34:52. > :34:56.as the Scotland Office Minister, you and your boss have said, as was
:34:56. > :35:02.the Prime Minister, that you want the referendum's sooner rather than
:35:02. > :35:07.later. The SNP wanted in the autumn of 2014, will it take place then or
:35:07. > :35:12.before? We are having a consultation. That was announced
:35:12. > :35:16.yesterday. Then the Scottish Government came forward with a
:35:16. > :35:21.preferred date and we welcome that, because in the months of discussion
:35:21. > :35:25.we have had, there had been no indication as to when the
:35:25. > :35:31.referendum might take place. We have had clarification on the
:35:31. > :35:35.question, the fact that Nicola Sturgeon indicated it would be a
:35:35. > :35:41.question on in or out independence. Mr Salmond himself has acknowledged
:35:41. > :35:44.the legality issue is, so we have moved tremendously. We have a
:35:44. > :35:49.consultation out there, or want to see all Scottish interests coming
:35:49. > :35:54.forward with their views on the timing, the franchise, the conduct
:35:54. > :35:58.of the election. Bob a point of clarity, you regard what the SNP
:35:58. > :36:02.had said as nearly part of a consultation exercise and will not
:36:02. > :36:06.be found by it? It is a consultation exercise we are
:36:06. > :36:10.holding, the Scottish Government have a legitimate view to put
:36:10. > :36:14.forward. But as there has been made clear, the Scottish Parliament
:36:14. > :36:19.cannot hold a referendum, cannot set the date, that has to be the
:36:19. > :36:23.subject of discussion between Westminster and Scotland and we
:36:23. > :36:33.welcome the opportunity. Margaret Curran, on the date of the
:36:33. > :36:35.
:36:35. > :36:40.referendum, do you favour before bottom 2014? -- autumn 2014?
:36:40. > :36:46.will be 7.5 years since the SNP came to power, a long time for your
:36:46. > :36:50.most all the mental belief and flagship policy. Johann Lamont is
:36:50. > :36:55.clear that we need this sooner rather than later. The SNP say it
:36:55. > :37:01.is a solution to all of Scotland's problems. We cannot have it hanging
:37:01. > :37:07.over a us for ever. It is an important question. Let us decide
:37:07. > :37:13.it as all four main parties agreed. One single question yes or no.
:37:13. > :37:17.now rather than later, do you think it should be before autumn 2014?
:37:17. > :37:22.cannot see the arguments for delaying yet, having been in power
:37:22. > :37:28.for so many years. We have had consultations, referendum plans
:37:28. > :37:33.published before, why take so long? The question is it is political
:37:33. > :37:39.expediency. It is not a principle at stake here. Malcolm Bruce, could
:37:39. > :37:43.be held earlier? Of course it could, but it has to be decided in
:37:43. > :37:46.Scotland. The governments of Britain and Scotland need to talk
:37:46. > :37:51.together to decide the best thing to have it and on what basis, who
:37:51. > :37:55.will set the question and administer it? It has to be fair,
:37:55. > :38:00.legal and decisive on it will not have the confidence of the people
:38:00. > :38:04.of Scotland. That is another reason for a straight question. The issue
:38:04. > :38:11.of more Paris is not something the SNP have added been interested in.
:38:11. > :38:17.-- more Paras. The SNP want independence, nothing else. You
:38:17. > :38:23.want to negotiate what to do. are not too keen on new spending
:38:23. > :38:26.this process out? That is how this is being spun. The Scottish
:38:26. > :38:33.Government has the mandate to hold this referendum. The First Minister
:38:33. > :38:38.has announced the date. This legality issue is a red herring.
:38:38. > :38:44.The Scotsman was right today, saying what the UK Government has
:38:44. > :38:49.said is against international convention. The referendum will be
:38:49. > :38:55.held in the autumn of 2014. I agree with Malcolm that the question will
:38:55. > :39:01.be set in Scotland, so we cannot have interference. We were elected
:39:01. > :39:06.in Scotland, too. But we have a mandate to hold a referendum.
:39:06. > :39:10.sure the question is clear, fair and decisive. It is not the issue
:39:11. > :39:16.for one party. It will not have the confidence of the people of
:39:16. > :39:21.Scotland if it is not clear and decisive. The question to each of
:39:21. > :39:25.you, despite all the rhetoric we are getting, at the end of the day,
:39:25. > :39:30.there will need to be negotiations and compromised by all sides to get
:39:30. > :39:36.this through. There have to be discussions, but it is clear where
:39:36. > :39:39.the mandate for the referendum lies. There is a legal entitlement for
:39:39. > :39:44.the Scottish Government to halt a consultative referendum and that is
:39:44. > :39:47.what will happen. Malcolm Bruce, there has to be compromise? There
:39:47. > :39:52.will have to be and Alex Salmond has acknowledged the two
:39:52. > :39:57.governments will have to tock. Both have an interest in the outcome and
:39:57. > :40:02.need to talk for the benefit of the people of Scotland. It should be
:40:02. > :40:08.cross-party in Scotland, because we have to have that consensus. We
:40:08. > :40:13.have done that in the past and can do that again. Let us be sensible,
:40:13. > :40:17.rational and co-operative. From the UK Government's point of view, you
:40:17. > :40:22.are willing to talk and no go see it, David Mundell? Possibly there
:40:22. > :40:27.will be compromise on the date, question or franchise? We are
:40:27. > :40:32.consulting, or want the referendum to be legal, fair and decisive. I
:40:32. > :40:36.cannot understand why anyone would want anything different. Those in
:40:36. > :40:44.the SNP have campaigned three years and will want the opportunity for a
:40:44. > :40:51.vote on that basis. Thank you all very much for joining me. The clock
:40:51. > :40:53.has beaten us or the time. Over the days, months and years to come, I
:40:53. > :40:59.think we will be revisiting this subject.
:40:59. > :41:01.Thank you very much for that. Let us pick up on some of those issues
:41:01. > :41:05.now in the company of this afternoon's political commentator
:41:05. > :41:10.Professor John Curtice. Let us take a step back for a moment and look
:41:10. > :41:16.at the strategy the UK Government have been pursuing. On Monday, firm
:41:16. > :41:23.and hard on this, trying to hit the SNP. Was that a decision that had
:41:23. > :41:27.been taken some time before, a strategy to hit the SNP? I am not
:41:27. > :41:31.sure if that was a planned strategy and it clearly was not a strategy
:41:31. > :41:37.were the two parts of the conceits -- two parts of the coalition were
:41:37. > :41:41.singing from the same hymn sheet. One Sunday night, there was this
:41:41. > :41:46.outbreak of the news that the UK Government was going to try and
:41:46. > :41:51.think about paving the way for the referendum to be held. That made
:41:51. > :41:56.the London media have set up and realise that indeed does referendum
:41:56. > :42:02.was going to be held and that may be Scotland would leave the union.
:42:02. > :42:05.But secondly, the UK Government was going to discuss setting a very
:42:05. > :42:12.tight timetable for when this referendum would be held, sooner
:42:12. > :42:22.rather than later, and that it was only going to be about independence
:42:22. > :42:22.
:42:22. > :42:26.yes or no. But this not so much about a legal problem, but came
:42:26. > :42:30.across as the UK Government saying, unless you do this, you will not be
:42:30. > :42:34.allowed to hold your referendum. There was immediately a sense of
:42:34. > :42:39.conflict. The first thing that happened was when the coalition
:42:39. > :42:46.Government cabinet discussed this, it was decided not to call on a
:42:46. > :42:53.hard day on the referendum, as was briefed to the press beforehand,
:42:53. > :42:57.and now a 48 hours, we have the situation where Michael Moore is
:42:57. > :43:03.opting for a different tone as that of David Cameron on Sunday, a tone
:43:03. > :43:06.which says, there are some issues here, we accept you have the
:43:06. > :43:11.mandate and we think we need to pass should have powers to let this
:43:11. > :43:17.happen, but we have some problems about what can be done and need to
:43:17. > :43:22.discuss it. Parts of that tour and have been adopted -- perhaps at
:43:22. > :43:26.that tone was adopted 48 hours earlier, the position of the UK
:43:26. > :43:30.Government would be stronger. us talk about the issue of
:43:30. > :43:35.independence and the process. What will this mean for normal people
:43:35. > :43:40.actually voting in this? We are discussing this, does this engage
:43:40. > :43:46.people or even put people of independence? There is no doubt the
:43:46. > :43:51.debate about process will not have much interest amongst the public.
:43:51. > :43:54.But at the heart of this dispute is an argument about whether or not
:43:54. > :43:58.the Scottish Parliament has the right to be able to hold a
:43:58. > :44:02.referendum itself on independence or whether Westminster should be
:44:02. > :44:07.involved. That goes to the heart of the issue of substance behind this
:44:07. > :44:10.debate, because those who believe in independence believe the
:44:10. > :44:13.Scottish Parliament should be able to determine all matters for
:44:13. > :44:18.Scotland and there should not be any involvement from London at all.
:44:18. > :44:24.That process is already anticipating the eventual debate
:44:24. > :44:30.about substance. Thank you for that and for your company. And that is
:44:30. > :44:33.all we have time for this afternoon. Remember to join us tomorrow at
:44:33. > :44:39.noon formed First Minister's Questions, which should be