:00:18. > :00:19.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:20. > :00:24.Another rise in unemployment in Scotland, as the number of jobless
:00:25. > :00:30.Summing up has begun in the legal bid to oust the Orkney and
:00:31. > :00:35.And with Westminster in recess, the Prime Minister joins
:00:36. > :00:41.an international summit on the migration crisis.
:00:42. > :00:44.The controversy over welfare reforms continues.
:00:45. > :00:46.The Scottish Secretary, David Mundell, has brushed aside
:00:47. > :00:50.warnings that any welfare benefits topped up in Scotland might be
:00:51. > :00:55.And the latest unemployment figures released today show the number
:00:56. > :00:58.of people out of work in Scotland has gone up, despite falling
:00:59. > :01:03.We'll also head to the chamber where there's a debate
:01:04. > :01:06.on the Succession Bill, which looks to reform inheritance law.
:01:07. > :01:09.Before then, let's talk to my guest for the afternoon, political
:01:10. > :01:27.Let's talk about this bottle and rows over welfare. There is a
:01:28. > :01:33.different dynamic here. What is your take on that? I would like to say
:01:34. > :01:37.the process story of the Scotland Bill has come to an end, the story
:01:38. > :01:43.of how it is going through the various chambers but we have not got
:01:44. > :01:47.there. It has to get through the Lords and then the Scottish
:01:48. > :01:52.Parliament, neither of which is a foregone conclusion, but we are
:01:53. > :01:57.getting towards the end of this process and then we can stop talking
:01:58. > :02:01.about the process of the bill and move on to the different stage,
:02:02. > :02:06.which is how it will come into effect, what the parties will do and
:02:07. > :02:13.how they would use it. And although there has in theory be in power to
:02:14. > :02:18.raise income tax here since 1999, it has never been used by any parties,
:02:19. > :02:23.but this time they will have to make decisions, even if it is to stay the
:02:24. > :02:30.same. It is a 2-part process, yes we have had that power of tax since
:02:31. > :02:33.then and next year we get limited income tax powers but there is
:02:34. > :02:40.general acceptance that the powers that comment next year, not by the
:02:41. > :02:45.Scotland will process, or a blunt tool, so the real income tax powers
:02:46. > :02:49.we will get when this bill comes into force a year later, it means
:02:50. > :02:53.parties will have to go into this election in May with manifestos
:02:54. > :02:59.sitting at what they will do with these tax powers and the next
:03:00. > :03:03.powers, so we should get some proper break down on what the parties will
:03:04. > :03:10.do with the money. Labour are taking a risk saying to better people
:03:11. > :03:15.Scotland, you will not get the tax breaks George Osborne will give you,
:03:16. > :03:20.the SNP have to decide whether to say that. One might say Labour have
:03:21. > :03:24.not much chance of winning the election so could say what they
:03:25. > :03:29.like, but they are giving the impression they will raise taxes. I
:03:30. > :03:34.think Conservatives will say they will lower taxes so the question is
:03:35. > :03:36.what the SNP will do. We will be back with you shortly.
:03:37. > :03:38.To the chamber at Holyrood now, where MSPs are being asked to
:03:39. > :03:40.support the principles of the government's Succession Bill.
:03:41. > :03:43.It aims to update the laws governing wills and inheritance.
:03:44. > :03:46.The convenor of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, which has
:03:47. > :03:49.been considering the bill, will give his view, but first let's listen in
:03:50. > :03:56.to the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs, Paul Wheelhouse.
:03:57. > :04:05.It will operate with the law as it stands, and continued to be relevant
:04:06. > :04:10.should the law be changed. We also undertake to consider at the
:04:11. > :04:15.relevant time the need to consolidate this bill with any
:04:16. > :04:21.subsequent belt. The committee recommended that the Parliament
:04:22. > :04:26.agrees to the principles of the bill and I move that Parliament agrees to
:04:27. > :04:31.the general principles. Ike now call on Nigel Don to speak on behalf of
:04:32. > :04:38.the delegate powers and law reform committee. I welcome the opportunity
:04:39. > :04:43.to speak on behalf of the committee on the succession belt. This is a
:04:44. > :04:50.Scotland Law Commission Bill, the second such to be considered either
:04:51. > :04:57.committee following the bill in 2013 which provided that law reform bills
:04:58. > :05:02.may be referred to this committee. Before talking about the specifics,
:05:03. > :05:07.I want to reflect on the role of the Scottish Law Commission. It
:05:08. > :05:13.recommends reforms aimed at up eating and improving Scottish law.
:05:14. > :05:16.Until recently the take-up of Scottish Law Commission inspired
:05:17. > :05:22.bills has been low. This process allows those bills to be given
:05:23. > :05:27.recommendations and for reforms to be implement it. We must do what we
:05:28. > :05:33.can to make sure Scots law is up to date and accessible. The standard
:05:34. > :05:37.procedure is committee is reviewing the process and I hope the outcome
:05:38. > :05:42.is one that builds on the process we have made in improving the
:05:43. > :05:48.implementation of Scottish Law Commission reports. Turning to the
:05:49. > :05:52.bill itself, I would like to thank those who gave evidence to the
:05:53. > :05:57.committee. In addition to submissions received, we heard from
:05:58. > :06:04.legal and academic representatives. The bill covers complex matters and
:06:05. > :06:10.the evidence received was greatly appreciated by the committee. The
:06:11. > :06:15.bill covers a desperate selection of measures relating to succession law.
:06:16. > :06:20.It originates from eight 2009 report of the Scottish Law Commission which
:06:21. > :06:26.it self built on the recommendations of laws of 1990 which had not been
:06:27. > :06:32.implemented, and that makes the point. There has been a long-held
:06:33. > :06:40.recognition of the need for reform in this area. This reflected the
:06:41. > :06:45.fact the bill contributes to this process and the committee
:06:46. > :06:52.acknowledges the need for reforming. This bill is, however, as already
:06:53. > :06:59.mentioned, only part of the reform of succession law. The 2009 report
:07:00. > :07:03.contains proposals which would make more wide reaching reforms to the
:07:04. > :07:11.door of succession. The Government is consulting on those proposals.
:07:12. > :07:16.The committee misers the matter requires further consideration and
:07:17. > :07:22.also that those matters may not be appropriate for this bill. It
:07:23. > :07:27.further appreciates the necessity of a further bill on recession.
:07:28. > :07:34.Nevertheless having to bills in succession may present challenges
:07:35. > :07:37.and maybe confusing for users of the legislation, so the committee
:07:38. > :07:42.discussed whether there should be valued in consolidating legislation
:07:43. > :07:48.after the second bill and there was support for that. In considering
:07:49. > :07:53.consolidation, the committee welcomes this commitment as this
:07:54. > :07:56.will improve accessibility of the law for the public, something
:07:57. > :08:04.Parliament should always strive to do. This is a complex area of law
:08:05. > :08:11.but one which impacts on the public. The committee welcomes the
:08:12. > :08:17.Government's recognition on this and updated guidance on what to do after
:08:18. > :08:22.death. It would be helped pull to have guidance on what people need to
:08:23. > :08:26.do before death and encourages the Government to reflect on the
:08:27. > :08:31.benefits of guidance, as we should all be aware of the desirability of
:08:32. > :08:38.a properly unction in Bell. The build covers various measures in
:08:39. > :08:40.relation to succession and I have no intention of covering most of them.
:08:41. > :08:41.Unemployment in Scotland has gone up again.
:08:42. > :08:43.Between July and September, the number of jobless rose
:08:44. > :08:48.In the UK as a whole, the number of people out
:08:49. > :08:52.Our reporter Jackie O'Brien has been to the Cromarty Firth,
:08:53. > :08:54.where rig repair and fabrication jobs have been hit by
:08:55. > :09:09.All will work Robert McNichol is one of thousands laid off over the past
:09:10. > :09:13.few months. At the age of 25 the father of two from Easter Ross is
:09:14. > :09:20.having to improve his welding skills to make himself more employable.
:09:21. > :09:26.When I started off it was quite easy, now it is difficult, I have
:09:27. > :09:31.had to come in and upscale and get SVQs to help me stay in the
:09:32. > :09:36.industry. It is able to step up the ladder but hopefully I can get back
:09:37. > :09:42.into the industry and climb back up the ladder. The jobless total across
:09:43. > :09:47.the UK fell by more than 100 thousand but it is up in Scotland
:09:48. > :09:53.for the second period in a row. The number of rigs in the Cromarty Firth
:09:54. > :09:57.is indicative of the downturn in work and inactivity of sure, and
:09:58. > :10:05.those dependent on maintenance and servicing contracts warned there is
:10:06. > :10:11.no quick fix on the horizon. We have been suffering, but we hope there is
:10:12. > :10:16.light at the end of the tunnel. It will take a long time to reach
:10:17. > :10:22.cover, maybe not next year or the following year, but I have no doubt
:10:23. > :10:27.the figures today are reflected in the industry right now. The Scottish
:10:28. > :10:32.Government points out youth employment is up, an area where it
:10:33. > :10:33.says Scotland continues to outperform the UK.
:10:34. > :10:38.I'm joined now from Holyrood by the SNP's Christina McKelvie.
:10:39. > :10:43.And from the Conservatives, Murdo Fraser.
:10:44. > :10:50.Margot Fraser, I'm sure you can list figures which show Scotland is not
:10:51. > :10:56.doing terribly well at compared to the rest of the UK but is there any
:10:57. > :11:00.reason to worry this is down to more than the obvious fact of what has
:11:01. > :11:07.happened to the oil and gas industry? For years we have listened
:11:08. > :11:11.to people from the SNP government went on unemployment figures in
:11:12. > :11:15.Scotland were at the end the UK, trying to claim credit for that, so
:11:16. > :11:19.now the figures have gone the other way is for several months we need
:11:20. > :11:24.you here from the Government what their explanation is. These figures
:11:25. > :11:31.are not the only economic indicator that have gone poorly relative to
:11:32. > :11:38.the rest of the UK. We have seen GDP growth trailing the UK, against the
:11:39. > :11:43.historic trend. Oil and gas is an important sector for Scotland, we
:11:44. > :11:49.have seen 65,000 job losses and that is important, but low energy costs
:11:50. > :11:54.are a good thing for the economy, for business and industrial users,
:11:55. > :11:59.and for the consumer because they put more money in consumers'
:12:00. > :12:02.pockets, Seward you would expect that decline to be balanced in the
:12:03. > :12:08.rest of the economy, so the fact that is not being shown would cause
:12:09. > :12:18.concerns in relation to why Scotland uniquely in the UK is not doing so
:12:19. > :12:22.well. Kristina McKelvie, there was a period of time when unemployment
:12:23. > :12:25.figures were better in Scotland than they were a downside, every time
:12:26. > :12:32.that happened the Government would claim credit for it, so what is your
:12:33. > :12:37.explanation now? There are challenges in the job market now but
:12:38. > :12:42.we have an increase of 3000 people in work the highest levels of e-mail
:12:43. > :12:49.unemployment, 34,000 additional young people, the highest number in
:12:50. > :12:54.work since 2008, but we're not denying there are challenges. Murdo
:12:55. > :12:58.cannot write off the fact the oil and gas industry does not have a
:12:59. > :13:05.proportional impact on job figures in Scotland, it has had, but he
:13:06. > :13:10.should look closer to home, he is a wind farm denier and some renewable
:13:11. > :13:17.energy companies have lost jobs in the past few weeks so he cannot take
:13:18. > :13:22.all these things in silos, you have to take responsibility for all that
:13:23. > :13:26.but the Chancellor's austerity agenda and not investing in capital
:13:27. > :13:34.projects has had an impact on job figures. Not in the rest of the UK.
:13:35. > :13:40.The UK is growing faster than any other OECD country at the moment,
:13:41. > :13:44.during the whole recession Britain's performance in jobs has
:13:45. > :13:48.been better than most other European countries, so what do you mean when
:13:49. > :13:55.you say it is the fault of George Osborne? Murdo cannot walk away from
:13:56. > :14:00.the fact the impact on Scotland is disproportionate on the oil and gas
:14:01. > :14:05.industry. The attack on renewable energy is causing job losses. We
:14:06. > :14:10.will not walk away either from trying to injure we keep people in
:14:11. > :14:16.work, that is why the Government is investing in capital projects. Drew
:14:17. > :14:22.Smith, are these comparisons not artificial anyway, comparing
:14:23. > :14:26.Scotland with the rest of the UK? If you look at Scotland compared to
:14:27. > :14:31.other areas, it is much of a muchness, unemployment here is a bit
:14:32. > :14:43.wetter than the North of England but in the south of England, employment
:14:44. > :14:47.is a bit better there, and the comparisons are not very meaningful,
:14:48. > :14:53.are they? It is true to say Scotland is a hugely integrated part of the
:14:54. > :14:58.whole UK economy, so trends we see in the rest of the UK are unlikely
:14:59. > :15:02.to be reflected in Scotland but Murdo makes a fair point to say
:15:03. > :15:07.where we have seen upwards trend in Scotland the Government have been
:15:08. > :15:13.quick to claim credit for that, so they are clear that they can make a
:15:14. > :15:20.difference they say so when things go well. That is an ad hominem point
:15:21. > :15:28.by the SNP press office but does not tell us anything meaningful. We need
:15:29. > :15:33.to see strategic long-term look out where you can make a real
:15:34. > :15:37.difference, identify sectors, oil and gas is not the only important
:15:38. > :15:42.one, in the past we have talked up the potential of renewable energies
:15:43. > :15:48.that that has not translated to the level of jobs. One thing we know is
:15:49. > :15:54.that construction jobs have been better here than over the UK as a
:15:55. > :15:58.whole. If there was one area of the economy the Government has influence
:15:59. > :16:04.on it is construction, and it seems to be big infrastructure projects
:16:05. > :16:09.that have boosted construction jobs here and are mitigating the effects.
:16:10. > :16:15.Where there is good news in the construction industry, no one will
:16:16. > :16:19.deny that, capital investment is hugely important for the economy but
:16:20. > :16:24.one thing we have seen in the figures is what is happening with
:16:25. > :16:28.women's employment and there are actions the Government can take
:16:29. > :16:35.their in terms of support for childcare, training, the impact of
:16:36. > :16:42.job losses in the public sector, these are important to different
:16:43. > :16:46.sections of the Labour market. Murdo Fraser, when you look at Scotland
:16:47. > :16:53.compared to other areas of the UK, it is just about average by every
:16:54. > :16:59.measure you care to look at. The UK as a whole is doing better, I accept
:17:00. > :17:04.that if you break down parts of the UK we are doing better than some and
:17:05. > :17:09.worse than others, but going against the trend of the last six or seven
:17:10. > :17:14.years, unemployment in Scotland has been low work than the UK but in the
:17:15. > :17:18.past six months we have seen a reversal, so Scotland is falling
:17:19. > :17:19.past six months we have seen a behind on unemployment and GDP
:17:20. > :17:23.growth behind on unemployment and GDP
:17:24. > :17:29.actions of the Scottish Government are important here. I don't think
:17:30. > :17:34.talk of a second independence referendum helps confidence and we
:17:35. > :17:38.have had a lot of that, as we see more tax powers devolved to the
:17:39. > :17:41.Scottish Parliament, how we use those powers will be very important
:17:42. > :17:49.in terms of encouraging a business friendly environment. I want to ask
:17:50. > :17:53.you about tax credits. Ruth Davidson said she was against what George
:17:54. > :18:00.Osborne was planning to do. Did you agree? Ruth was saying it was not
:18:01. > :18:05.the principal of changes to tax credits she was concerned about but
:18:06. > :18:11.that timescale whereby the increases in income we delivered would not be
:18:12. > :18:16.matched by reductions in tax credit because these came in from April. I
:18:17. > :18:22.am with Ruth Davidson on that, it is a fair point. Should George Osborne
:18:23. > :18:29.mitigate the effects of tax credit cuts in full in his Autumn
:18:30. > :18:34.Statement? We are looking for to seeing what measures can be brought
:18:35. > :18:40.for just. That is not the same as saying he should mitigate these
:18:41. > :18:46.measures in full. We have to bear in mind affordability, we are still
:18:47. > :18:51.dealing with a pickled financial situation and if the Government
:18:52. > :18:56.feels the UK is not going far enough, in terms of the Scotland
:18:57. > :19:00.will which has just completed its passage in the House of Commons,
:19:01. > :19:09.they will get the ability to top up tax credits if they feel the
:19:10. > :19:13.Government has not gone far enough. Christina McKelvie, did you feel
:19:14. > :19:21.John Swinney should mitigate the effects? He should do what he can to
:19:22. > :19:27.make sure people are not hammered I'd be affected on them. That is
:19:28. > :19:39.different from saying he should mitigate the effects in full. We are
:19:40. > :19:41.not clear whether mitigating any affect of the tax credit cuts will
:19:42. > :19:45.be possible. We took evidence in the welfare reform committee yesterday
:19:46. > :19:51.that suggested any top up we gave could be clawed back. Drew Smith,
:19:52. > :19:56.you presumably want them mitigate it in full but as you have not
:19:57. > :20:02.identified any money to be paid for it can you tell us how you will pay
:20:03. > :20:09.four? We want to see them mitigate it and Alex Neil was clear on behalf
:20:10. > :20:14.of the Government that that would be possible with changes the Scotland
:20:15. > :20:18.Bill will bring in, so politicians there will be able to choose to
:20:19. > :20:23.mitigate those cuts to tax credits and make sure families are not
:20:24. > :20:31.hammered. Some of that will inform -- will involve choices, for example
:20:32. > :20:40.around the SNP DCs and. You have not found money to pay for it. We would
:20:41. > :20:47.not go ahead with that huge tax cut. That doesn't give you any money
:20:48. > :20:51.either. These things would give money if the tax changes went ahead,
:20:52. > :20:56.you would see politicians like ourselves a less in tax as a result
:20:57. > :21:02.of that and we would rather see that money spent on the offending people
:21:03. > :21:05.in the face of these cuts to tax credits. We will have to leave it
:21:06. > :21:06.there. Back now to the chamber,
:21:07. > :21:08.where MSPs are considering the government's new Succession
:21:09. > :21:11.Bill, which aims to update the laws The Conservatives' John
:21:12. > :21:23.Scott is responding now. New pieces of legislation at a later
:21:24. > :21:27.stage, which is welcome. This is a sensible piece of legislation,
:21:28. > :21:32.although limited in scope inspirations will have a significant
:21:33. > :21:39.impact on people's affected by this area of law and its focus should not
:21:40. > :21:44.limit its importance. Scottish Conservatives will therefore support
:21:45. > :21:50.the bill at stage one. I now turn to the short open debate. I call
:21:51. > :21:57.Stewart Stevenson, to be followed by Richard Baker. An interesting bill,
:21:58. > :22:04.which we have been dealing with and I want to address the director of
:22:05. > :22:10.provisions at sector three and four. In particular taking note of what
:22:11. > :22:18.the minister said as reported in section 73 of the report, that we
:22:19. > :22:25.are only looking at what the testator has wanted and has clearly
:22:26. > :22:29.expressed when it is not reflected in the bill as grounds for
:22:30. > :22:37.ratification. We will continue to reflect on whether software could be
:22:38. > :22:42.considered as a third party, contributing to misrepresentation in
:22:43. > :22:48.the resulting bill of the intentions of the testator. There is a point in
:22:49. > :22:53.their that we have to consider, which is different from using
:22:54. > :22:59.electronic means to take a template and fill in the blanks with one's
:23:00. > :23:03.intentions because there one is keen from the intention of the testator
:23:04. > :23:09.through the keyboard into the document without any intermediate
:23:10. > :23:14.computer for a programmer for programme operation, but thinking
:23:15. > :23:19.about it further, there is a third party when there is a computer
:23:20. > :23:26.programme involved. There is the programmer who produced it, and like
:23:27. > :23:29.all programmes it is impossible to guarantee a programme, however
:23:30. > :23:35.simple it may be, to be free from potential air, and it may well be
:23:36. > :23:41.that even though the testator keyed, let's say, I wish to leave all my
:23:42. > :23:48.assets to my spouse, that is all they say, it is still possible for a
:23:49. > :23:50.computer programme to scramble that and misspell spouse, for the sake of
:23:51. > :23:51.argument. Now, the House of Commons is
:23:52. > :23:54.in recess just now, but our Westminster Correspondent David
:23:55. > :24:06.Porter remains doggedly on duty. Although not indoors, David, they
:24:07. > :24:09.have thrown you out again. They gave us one week when they made us think
:24:10. > :24:15.we would have a nice dry time and next week they throw us out to the
:24:16. > :24:21.elements, the elements are quite kind and let's hope that continues.
:24:22. > :24:27.David Cameron is at a European summit, a serious issue but is there
:24:28. > :24:33.a political dimension to this? Yes, from his point of view and the other
:24:34. > :24:38.59 leaders on the EU and the African states. This is a meeting in Malta
:24:39. > :24:44.to look at the ongoing migration crisis, something like 800 thousand
:24:45. > :24:50.people who have moved from Africa I see to the Mediterranean and Europe
:24:51. > :24:56.since January this year, and it is a good indication of the way this
:24:57. > :25:02.story is moving and changing, when the meeting was first mooted in
:25:03. > :25:06.April, the problem was with migrants coming over from countries like
:25:07. > :25:11.Somalia and Eritrea, but since then the focus has been on the increasing
:25:12. > :25:17.number of people from Iraq and Syria and that type of area, and what both
:25:18. > :25:23.the African nations and European Union will be trying to do is find
:25:24. > :25:29.some way of trying to keep evil in their home countries if they can and
:25:30. > :25:33.then if they do come to Europe, trying to persuade them to go back
:25:34. > :25:41.to the areas where they can feel safe. The EU says it is willing to
:25:42. > :25:46.give something like ?1.3 billion, also expecting members of the EU to
:25:47. > :25:50.give funds to try to take people back to the areas where they can
:25:51. > :25:55.feel safe on the African continent, but it is a good example of when
:25:56. > :26:02.this meeting was set up they were dealing with one problem but that
:26:03. > :26:06.has now expanded and I think no one would in anyway want to minimise
:26:07. > :26:11.this year misery that people have suffered because of what is going on
:26:12. > :26:16.in Syria and Iraq. They are trying to find a way through this problem
:26:17. > :26:24.but that will not be easy by any stretch of the imagination. David
:26:25. > :26:30.Cameron has laid out his demands, I am interested in your sense of how
:26:31. > :26:37.that is going down there. Yesterday he came out with 14 issues, the big
:26:38. > :26:43.one for him was paying benefits for migrants who come from within the EU
:26:44. > :26:47.and how he wanted that restricted, although he said there may be room
:26:48. > :26:52.for compromise. What was noticeable was that when a statement was made
:26:53. > :27:00.in the House of Commons, by his Europe Minister, David Livingstone,
:27:01. > :27:05.who is in Edinburgh today, quite how many Conservative back benches were
:27:06. > :27:12.not impressed with what was put forth. One of them said, is that
:27:13. > :27:17.it? Another called it a pig in a poke. The your scab 61 Tim to be far
:27:18. > :27:24.more ambitious in his negotiations with the EU. They want him to
:27:25. > :27:28.pitchfork are more and David Lidington got quite a rough ride in
:27:29. > :27:33.the Commons. It even Cameron looks at newspapers this morning he will
:27:34. > :27:39.not find them supporting him at all in that. What he now has to do is
:27:40. > :27:45.make sure in these negotiations begin in earnest with other members
:27:46. > :27:50.of the EU, and the wider European Council next month, that he kept
:27:51. > :27:55.something he can bring back and sell to the House of Commons, that he can
:27:56. > :28:02.either say yes, this is a good deal and I would like us to stay in the
:28:03. > :28:06.EU, for if that doesn't go, if they can say to his backbenchers, it is
:28:07. > :28:12.Pelosi deal, we ought to recommend coming out of the EU, it is that
:28:13. > :28:18.they in political terms. David Cameron knows this Parliament and in
:28:19. > :28:25.his second term as Prime Minister will be Carter right by the deal he
:28:26. > :28:26.gets on Europe. David, we look forward to speaking to you next
:28:27. > :28:35.week. We were talking about the problems
:28:36. > :28:40.with tax decisions but that talk with MSPs might illustrate the
:28:41. > :28:49.problem, we did not get clear answers about whether the tax cuts
:28:50. > :28:55.should be mitigated in full. The SNP want to have them mitigate it in
:28:56. > :28:56.full, Labour can say they want it but they can't because they have no
:28:57. > :29:02.chance of being elected, to be fair but they can't because they have no
:29:03. > :29:06.to John Swinney he has every right to say he cannot give an answer
:29:07. > :29:09.until he knows what the Chancellor will
:29:10. > :29:13.until he knows what the Chancellor his decision John Swinney sensei he
:29:14. > :29:19.until he knows what the Chancellor now knows how much money he has and
:29:20. > :29:22.what to do with it, so he can do that but he is also looking for
:29:23. > :29:29.excuses to dodge this for another few weeks. Because there was still
:29:30. > :29:34.the argument, I thought it had been accepted they could do this if they
:29:35. > :29:42.wanted. It has been accepted they could do this. But Christina
:29:43. > :29:48.McKelvie seem to say it could be clawed back in some way. The
:29:49. > :29:58.consensus is the Scottish Government can mitigate the effect that it
:29:59. > :30:00.would be difficult and all those discussions have to go on
:30:01. > :30:04.behind-the-scenes but there is acceptance that there will be an
:30:05. > :30:08.ability for them to mitigate it. Europe, David Cameron has laid out
:30:09. > :30:16.his demands, a Sunday Times poll came out with what the
:30:17. > :30:21.recommendations might be. There is confusion about whether there is a
:30:22. > :30:26.split in attitudes between Scotland and the UK when it comes to the UK,
:30:27. > :30:35.and according to this poll Scotland were 65% in favour of staying,
:30:36. > :30:39.whereas Europe were 52% in favour of staying, so there is a big gap they
:30:40. > :30:47.have Nicola Sturgeon has highlighted on many occasions saying Scotland
:30:48. > :30:51.was friendly per as Europe was Eurosceptic, which in the view of
:30:52. > :30:57.Nicola Sturgeon would trigger another referendum. Even if the
:30:58. > :31:04.polls have not changed, which was the latest criterion. The European
:31:05. > :31:09.dimension is important if there is a clear split in opinion between
:31:10. > :31:12.Scotland and England. As we always hey, it is just one poll.
:31:13. > :31:14.Summing up has begun in the legal bid
:31:15. > :31:16.to oust the Orkney and Shetland MP Alistair Carmichael.
:31:17. > :31:19.Four of his constituents claim he broke election law
:31:20. > :31:21.because he lied about his involvement in a leaked memo
:31:22. > :31:22.during the general election campaign.
:31:23. > :31:23.Our Scotland Correspondent, Kevin Keane,
:31:24. > :31:32.has been following developments and joins me now from the newsroom.
:31:33. > :31:40.Today, as you said, has been a chance for the lawyers for the two
:31:41. > :31:46.sides to state their case and talk about the legal aspect of this and
:31:47. > :31:49.the law, and to some B for them. The big box office days were yesterday
:31:50. > :31:54.and the day before. Those were the days when Alistair Carmichael
:31:55. > :31:59.himself gave evidence. That did not happen with cameras present which is
:32:00. > :32:05.what has happened before and after, but this is not expected to give
:32:06. > :32:07.evidence on camera. We heard him say he regretted enormously being
:32:08. > :32:13.involved in the leaking of this memo. He was adamant yesterday that
:32:14. > :32:19.he still believes that the suggestion in the memo that Nicola
:32:20. > :32:22.Sturgeon wanted David Cameron to be returned as Prime Minister in the
:32:23. > :32:28.general election is still what he believes that she thinks. He
:32:29. > :32:32.believes that the First Minister and Nationalists still, insight, believe
:32:33. > :32:39.that that is good for the cause of nationalism. It set out by saying
:32:40. > :32:43.that they can set Scotland apart from Westminster, and that widens
:32:44. > :32:48.the gap and allows them to kind of flourish. We heard more details over
:32:49. > :32:52.the course of the last two days in terms of his actions after the
:32:53. > :32:56.leaking of that memo, the fact that he lied to Channel 4 News and to the
:32:57. > :33:01.Daily Record about his involvement. He has admitted that he lied. We
:33:02. > :33:07.also heard that he was less than truthful to the Cabinet Office
:33:08. > :33:09.inquiry. He was given a questionnaire along with 20 other
:33:10. > :33:15.people to fill in, he didn't answer all the questions and he was quite
:33:16. > :33:24.evasive buy it. Lots of the Dell coming out. -- lots of detail.
:33:25. > :33:29.Briefly, tell what happens next. The judges will sum up and provide a
:33:30. > :33:33.determination, as to whether or not he breached the terms of their
:33:34. > :33:38.Representation of the People Act. If he did then he will at that point
:33:39. > :33:43.loses seat. It is a formality to go through where it has to be passed on
:33:44. > :33:47.to the House of Commons, but essentially if it is determined that
:33:48. > :33:50.he broke that Act, the terms of it, then he will lose his seat.
:33:51. > :33:53.SNP, Labour and Liberal Democrat MSPs condemned the UK Government's
:33:54. > :33:55.Trade Union Bill in a vote at Holyrood yesterday, saying it
:33:56. > :33:58.restricts workers' rights to bargain collectively and take strike action.
:33:59. > :34:00.The Conservatives argue it's necessary to ensure
:34:01. > :34:02.strikes only take place when there's a substantial
:34:03. > :34:07.The Scottish Government and Scottish Labour are now seeking
:34:08. > :34:09.a vote to exclude Scotland from the Bill entirely
:34:10. > :34:12.and have taken legal advice on the issue.
:34:13. > :34:14.The Fair Work Secretary, Roseanna Cunningham,
:34:15. > :34:19.argued the Scottish Parliament needs a veto.
:34:20. > :34:26.Presiding Officer, I am disappointed if not surprised to note that at no
:34:27. > :34:31.point ahead of publishing the bill did the UK Government seek our views
:34:32. > :34:35.on how these measures will apply to Scotland. This legislation, unless
:34:36. > :34:39.amended, will undoubtedly have an impact on how many of our public
:34:40. > :34:44.sector bodies operate in areas of devolved responsibility. The UK
:34:45. > :34:47.Government have made no attempt to understand the Scottish position,
:34:48. > :34:51.and no attempt to address the concerns we have raised. That stance
:34:52. > :34:56.was very evident on Tuesday 13th October when I together with Graham
:34:57. > :35:00.Smith from the S TUC gave evidence to the House of Commons standing
:35:01. > :35:04.committee on the bill, an interesting experience with a
:35:05. > :35:07.different speech, it has to be said. Tory members on a committee made it
:35:08. > :35:11.crystal clear that they have not the slightest interest on the potential
:35:12. > :35:15.impact of this bill. They intend to legislate regardless of any
:35:16. > :35:20.consequences. This is just not acceptable. It does not reflect a
:35:21. > :35:24.mature devolution settlement and it is one of the reasons why I have
:35:25. > :35:29.asked that Scotland be excluded from the legislation altogether. At the
:35:30. > :35:32.very least, given the significant impact it will have, I believe the
:35:33. > :35:36.UK Government had to seek the approval of this Parliament before
:35:37. > :35:42.enforcing this legislation in Scotland. If the Act goes as it is
:35:43. > :35:47.just now then it will destabilise the balance of the employer-employee
:35:48. > :35:49.relationship, making it more difficult for employees to have
:35:50. > :35:53.their voice heard, it will encourage conflict with unions and make
:35:54. > :35:59.employees feel further removed from their working environment. Trade
:36:00. > :36:04.unionism is a part of me and who I am. That is true for pretty well all
:36:05. > :36:10.of my colleagues on these ventures and some on the other ventures, too.
:36:11. > :36:15.It is true of the mining communities I serve, and the party I represent,
:36:16. > :36:19.founded by a trade unionist, Keir Hardie, so that the values and
:36:20. > :36:23.purposes of trade unionism would find political expression in
:36:24. > :36:26.Parliament. The inference that the trade union movement is somehow one
:36:27. > :36:31.of mindless militancy is just absurd. Industrial action already
:36:32. > :36:36.requires the support of members in the ballots and the attempt on the
:36:37. > :36:40.bill to impose thresholds on those ballots, which no one elected
:36:41. > :36:50.politician would countenance when it came to their own election... These
:36:51. > :36:56.are an anti-democratic outrage. Moving a ban on agency workers
:36:57. > :37:01.replacing strikers is an attempt to take industrial relations not back
:37:02. > :37:04.the last century but the one before. Restrictions on facility time
:37:05. > :37:07.compromising the right of representatives to have time off for
:37:08. > :37:10.trade union work, that is a naked attempt to undermine the day-to-day
:37:11. > :37:16.work of union Retford resenting their members. Let me deal briefly
:37:17. > :37:19.with these elements of the Trade Union Bill to put them on the
:37:20. > :37:22.record. The Conservative manifesto commitment was that strike should
:37:23. > :37:25.only be the result of a clear, positive position based on a ballot
:37:26. > :37:31.in which half of the workforce had voted. The turnout threshold is an
:37:32. > :37:34.important and fair step to rebalance the interest of employers,
:37:35. > :37:39.employees, the public and the rights of trade unions. In relation to
:37:40. > :37:42.essential public services such as health, education, fire and
:37:43. > :37:46.Transport, industrial action in these services would require the
:37:47. > :37:49.support of at least 40% of all those entitled to take part in strike
:37:50. > :37:54.ballots as well as a majority of those actually turning out to vote.
:37:55. > :37:58.There are numerous examples we have had in the past of strikes in
:37:59. > :38:03.essential services that have gone ahead on a pro-level of support from
:38:04. > :38:07.members. Unison ballot members on NHS England including nurses,
:38:08. > :38:12.paramedics and cooks on September 2014 for strike action. Just sitting
:38:13. > :38:18.% of those voted and 11% of all union members voted in favour. The
:38:19. > :38:23.Trade Union Bill is not the operation of effective and
:38:24. > :38:28.democratic trade unions, but a means to neuter them from properly
:38:29. > :38:33.representing their members. This bill is purely party political. It
:38:34. > :38:36.does not help address industrial disputes and simply seeks to
:38:37. > :38:42.undermine the Labour Party. We believe that responsible trade
:38:43. > :38:46.unions are vital in standing up for the rights of workers, improving
:38:47. > :38:49.productivity and protecting against workplace abuse and bullying.
:38:50. > :38:53.Our Political Editor Brian Taylor is at Holyrood.
:38:54. > :39:01.I am intrigued by this idea that some of the parties are consulting
:39:02. > :39:05.their lawyers about this. I'm sure that we're all delighted because we
:39:06. > :39:12.see lawyers making more money, but what is it that they are proposing
:39:13. > :39:15.to do? If this was simply a debate, and you heard the Passion of the
:39:16. > :39:19.specials there, you heard the impassioned arguments on the various
:39:20. > :39:23.sides, if that was all that was taking place then it would just be a
:39:24. > :39:27.contribution to the wider discussion about trade union power with the
:39:28. > :39:30.decision being taken about Westminster, but two things are
:39:31. > :39:36.being suggested. Roseanna Cunningham, the Minister, requested
:39:37. > :39:40.and pleaded that Scotland be excluded from the bill altogether,
:39:41. > :39:43.from the provisions of the bill. That has not been accepted. Her
:39:44. > :39:54.fallback position is to say that there should be a consent motion, a
:39:55. > :39:59.Sewell motion on whether the Scotland part of the bill should go
:40:00. > :40:03.ahead. It is felt that devolved powers are being entrenched upon and
:40:04. > :40:08.Scotland is entitled to have a say. I am certain the UK Government will
:40:09. > :40:11.object to that argument and say that this is a reserved matter and they
:40:12. > :40:17.are entitled to legislate on this for the whole of the UK. In which
:40:18. > :40:20.case it may end up being a constitutional legal battle and that
:40:21. > :40:25.ends up going to the Supreme Court, hence the early consultation of
:40:26. > :40:30.lawyers. The court battle, it would be just the Scottish Government but
:40:31. > :40:33.Scottish Labour and the Scottish Lib Dems saying that the Scottish
:40:34. > :40:39.Parliament has a legal right to be consulted on this and has not been,
:40:40. > :40:43.and therefore, they asked the court to ensure that the British
:40:44. > :40:47.Government consults about it. If it goes to the Supreme Court to fulfil
:40:48. > :40:52.the function that used to be done by the committee of the Privy Council
:40:53. > :40:57.ruling on devolution matters, on the ambit of power, the argument will
:40:58. > :41:01.not be whether or not the bill is a good thing or not, it will be where
:41:02. > :41:07.the power lies. Does the power lies solely with Westminster on this, as
:41:08. > :41:11.the UK Government will undoubtedly argue, or is it shared, as Roseanna
:41:12. > :41:17.Cunningham argued, saying that it infringed upon the Scottish
:41:18. > :41:22.Government's relationship with its employees? That is what they will be
:41:23. > :41:25.asked to rule upon, if it is hybrid across the two parliaments there
:41:26. > :41:33.could be a case for a consent motion which would undoubtedly be thwarted
:41:34. > :41:36.given the political mood here at Hollywood but the UK Government will
:41:37. > :41:40.say that they are vital to govern on this for the whole of the UK. Tax
:41:41. > :41:47.credits, do we have an political Armistice on this until George
:41:48. > :41:52.Osborne makes his Autumn Statement? John Swinney wants to match the sum
:41:53. > :41:56.extent the Labour front tax credits although he argues that it is
:41:57. > :42:00.impractical and unworkable on its present form. At the same time, that
:42:01. > :42:04.is a forward offer, he has to consider operating within a fixed
:42:05. > :42:08.budget and more generally he does not want to abandon any notion of
:42:09. > :42:12.fiscal prudence, with an eye on Middle Scotland.
:42:13. > :42:14.Police Scotland have been told to postpone further moves towards
:42:15. > :42:16.a national call-handling system, because of weaknesses in the way
:42:17. > :42:20.An Inspector of Constabulary review was ordered
:42:21. > :42:23.after police took three days to respond to a report of a crash
:42:24. > :42:26.The main opposition at Holyrood, described the report
:42:27. > :42:31.The Justice Secretary, Michael Matheson, said he'd arranged
:42:32. > :42:34.for inspectors to make unannounced visits to call-handling centres,
:42:35. > :42:36.with immediate effect, in a bid to deliver some
:42:37. > :42:47.The report contains 30 recommendations. Police Scotland
:42:48. > :42:52.have a steward me that they will implement them all. The report
:42:53. > :42:59.confirms that significant progress has already been made. It gives a
:43:00. > :43:03.clear direction to Police Scotland were further improvements are
:43:04. > :43:09.needed. It includes in governance and programme management, staff
:43:10. > :43:15.communication and training, technology and equality assurance.
:43:16. > :43:18.The report contains a series of criticisms programme management and
:43:19. > :43:23.governance in place around the restructuring programme. While
:43:24. > :43:26.performance has now stabilised, it is essential that these issues are
:43:27. > :43:30.addressed before the remaining phases of the change programme are
:43:31. > :43:36.progressed. I have discussed this with Andrew Flannigan, Chair of the
:43:37. > :43:39.SPA and Police Scotland. They have confirmed independent experts will
:43:40. > :43:46.be brought in to provide strong assurance therefore any decision is
:43:47. > :43:52.taken regarding the implementation of proposed changes to Aberdeen,
:43:53. > :43:58.Dundee and Inverness centres. The SPA have continued to monitor, since
:43:59. > :44:01.April, to monitor performance on a weekly basis. Any debt in
:44:02. > :44:04.performance such as was experienced in Bilston Glen Elliott this year
:44:05. > :44:13.will become quickly apparent and will trigger rapid intervention. --
:44:14. > :44:17.earlier this year. Reports around quality of customer service, call
:44:18. > :44:22.handling and grading, I want to make sure that standards are maintained
:44:23. > :44:26.in these areas and improvements being implemented by police Scotland
:44:27. > :44:35.deliver that required improvements. I therefore asked HMICS to make
:44:36. > :44:38.unannounced visits to call centres across the country. This will begin
:44:39. > :44:45.with immediate effect and will be ongoing until the restructuring is
:44:46. > :44:50.complete. This government will continue to work tirelessly to
:44:51. > :44:59.strengthen policing in Scotland even further. The language of
:45:00. > :45:04.management-speak and acronyms, the HMIC report is damning. Two years
:45:05. > :45:11.since Police Scotland was formed we still see systemic failures in
:45:12. > :45:16.important aspects of policing. The report boasts savings of 1.8 billion
:45:17. > :45:19.on policing whilst forcing it to spend an additional 1.4 million on
:45:20. > :45:26.overtime. This is a massive failure in strategic management. The report
:45:27. > :45:30.uses the word assurance on 304 occasions but we have had so many
:45:31. > :45:35.assurances on policing that have come to nothing. The litany of
:45:36. > :45:37.failures listed are extraordinary. IP systems offering only basic
:45:38. > :45:42.functionality with questionable stability. A lack of resources for
:45:43. > :45:48.front-line staff. Weak local management. Inadequate oversight of
:45:49. > :45:53.call centre rationalisation. A narrower approach to the scrutiny of
:45:54. > :45:58.major projects by SPA and Police Scotland. No framework to measure
:45:59. > :46:03.stated benefits. Key staff on that project board lacking experience and
:46:04. > :46:08.training. A lack of staff. And those who are their reporting low morale.
:46:09. > :46:13.31% of officers and civilian staff responded to the HMIC survey and
:46:14. > :46:20.spoke negatively about the 101 service. And we need so many
:46:21. > :46:25.improvements. Giving we have heard all of these assurances uttered by
:46:26. > :46:28.the Cabinet Secretary, before, and restated today, what possible
:46:29. > :46:33.confidence can the general public have that the call handling in
:46:34. > :46:37.Scotland is fit for purpose to ensure that history is not
:46:38. > :46:40.repeated? We now need to make sure that in areas where am we have
:46:41. > :46:45.identified deficiencies in the management of this change, that
:46:46. > :46:48.these are then taken forward. Bringing into question the quality
:46:49. > :46:50.of inspection undertaken by the Inspectorate, I don't think does
:46:51. > :46:53.anybody a service in here. Time for some final thoughts from
:46:54. > :47:01.Hamish MacDonnell. This police business. A few
:47:02. > :47:07.unannounced visits to call centres. It will not make the controversy go
:47:08. > :47:12.away. It was hard to avoid the impression of stable doors being
:47:13. > :47:15.bolted when the horse has disappeared over the horizon. These
:47:16. > :47:22.are problems that have been going on for some time. Unannounced visits,
:47:23. > :47:25.they will not make the controversy over Police Scotland go away. At the
:47:26. > :47:29.root of the problem for the call handling system is the same as the
:47:30. > :47:34.root of all this problems with Police Scotland, it comes down to
:47:35. > :47:36.the creation of Police Scotland and the breaking up of the eight
:47:37. > :47:43.regional forces that had been there for some time. With call handling,
:47:44. > :47:50.there were 11 call centres moving to three. It is that change which has
:47:51. > :47:53.caused problems. Any time that governments and IT systems come into
:47:54. > :47:57.connection, remember the NHS system in England, it just seems like a
:47:58. > :48:02.recipe for disaster. You have restructuring, IT systems and
:48:03. > :48:08.cost-cutting, it was a recipe for disaster from the word go. This
:48:09. > :48:12.argument over trade unions. It is interesting this idea that there
:48:13. > :48:16.might be a legal challenge with Labour on the same side as the SNP
:48:17. > :48:22.and Lib Dems. Politically, it is a smart move. I'm surprised that we
:48:23. > :48:25.have not had this before. When you start to break up that Westminster
:48:26. > :48:29.power, there has not been a real controversy over were that power
:48:30. > :48:33.lies, and now we have got the first one. It is smart, because of this
:48:34. > :48:35.goes against the Scottish Government and goes all the way to the Supreme
:48:36. > :48:39.Court and judges rule that and goes all the way to the Supreme
:48:40. > :48:42.Westminster has the power, the Scottish Government can turn round
:48:43. > :48:46.and say, they are just riding roughshod over our rights. The
:48:47. > :48:50.powers of the division did not go far enough, regardless of anything
:48:51. > :48:58.that is coming in. That may be the long-term aim. Are they asking for
:48:59. > :49:01.the right to be consulted? I know they would like Scotland to be
:49:02. > :49:06.excluded completely but are they asking for the right to be able to
:49:07. > :49:10.do anything differently? They asking for the right to be consulted and to
:49:11. > :49:17.have a legislative consent motion that would allow them to see, this
:49:18. > :49:22.does not apply in Scotland. They want Scotland to be taken away from
:49:23. > :49:26.the powers of the bill, so you have what is effectively a Brit reserved
:49:27. > :49:29.matter, something the Westminster government thinks should apply to
:49:30. > :49:30.the whole of the UK, and the Scottish Government wants to get
:49:31. > :49:32.itself out of it. We'll be back next Wednesday
:49:33. > :49:36.at 3 o'clock.