:00:21. > :00:26.Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up: Accusations the Scottish
:00:27. > :00:30.government is failing to meet manifesto pledges on schools as new
:00:31. > :00:35.figures show a rise in average class sizes. People in Pretoria paid
:00:36. > :00:40.tribute to Nelson Mandela, as his Coffin lies in state. MSPs remember
:00:41. > :00:51.the man and his connections to Scotland. Here at Westminster, party
:00:52. > :00:56.leaders due up to give -- trash plans to give a pay rise to MPs. Can
:00:57. > :01:04.they stop it? The average class size of tuple is in primary 1-3 has
:01:05. > :01:12.increased to 23. The SNP pledge that all memory class sizes would be
:01:13. > :01:20.smaller as failed. -- primary class sizes. They blamed extreme financial
:01:21. > :01:26.pressure for missing the target. We have achieved the maximum in law. We
:01:27. > :01:32.now need to see whether we can put primary to an primary three into
:01:33. > :01:36.law. The class sizes of 18, in a time of extreme financial pressure,
:01:37. > :01:40.we have not got that, but we have maintained, and in hands, the
:01:41. > :01:49.quality of Scottish education. -- enhanced. We are joined by Mike Wade
:01:50. > :01:55.from The Times, and also by the education correspondent Jamie
:01:56. > :02:00.McIvor. It seems like bad news for the Education Secretary. Certainly,
:02:01. > :02:07.when it comes to class sizes, it will be something of a political
:02:08. > :02:12.argument. This is this that is the -- this is the bulletin that the
:02:13. > :02:17.government published. There is much in it that the government is proud
:02:18. > :02:22.of. They are keen to highlight things such as more probationary
:02:23. > :02:25.teachers getting jobs, fewer pupils in bad buildings, and a drop in the
:02:26. > :02:29.number of pupils being excluded, but I think it is the issue of class
:02:30. > :02:34.sizes that will be seized on. There has been a big drop in the number of
:02:35. > :02:46.pupils in primary one, two and three, and a significant rise in
:02:47. > :02:50.four, five and six. Cutting class sizes has been a priority since they
:02:51. > :02:55.came to office. As we were hearing, there is a limit of 25 on primary
:02:56. > :03:03.one pupils, and that is being kept too. There are only a few hundred
:03:04. > :03:07.pupils in classes of more than 25. There are exceptional reasons why
:03:08. > :03:10.that happens. I think it is the fact that the average class sizes are
:03:11. > :03:16.creeping up again, the direction of travel is not going the way the
:03:17. > :03:22.government would like, it is that that is the issue. Mike Wade, lots
:03:23. > :03:27.of good news in those statistics, but also, this is a key target for
:03:28. > :03:35.them pointed out by the SNP Government, education, education
:03:36. > :03:40.education, always a key priority. It goes to the heart of another policy,
:03:41. > :03:43.the council tax freeze. Local authorities have got their hands
:03:44. > :03:51.tied to some degree. When you look at that, it is quite specific, these
:03:52. > :03:58.numbers should have fallen. They have missed their target quite
:03:59. > :04:03.substantially. It was set in 2010. They have missed that for the third
:04:04. > :04:09.year running. The Education Secretary was blaming extreme
:04:10. > :04:12.financial pressures. The local authorities under a funding squeeze
:04:13. > :04:18.at the moment. What is the problem and how might it be resolved?
:04:19. > :04:22.Education is a national service which local authorities are
:04:23. > :04:28.entrusted to provide. Although the government and local authorities can
:04:29. > :04:32.agree priorities, at the end of the day, some local authorities have
:04:33. > :04:39.different priorities in spending money. In education, the tension
:04:40. > :04:43.comes to the fore. Mike Russell was pointing out in the clip that we
:04:44. > :04:51.showed that education in Scotland was improving. Rumack years, but
:04:52. > :04:57.they have made such a great play in the White Paper and recent weeks
:04:58. > :05:05.about the focus on education, on parents, it is just bad news to have
:05:06. > :05:08.this kind of thing, he said there was something particularly good
:05:09. > :05:13.about some aspects of the statistics. I could not see it. It
:05:14. > :05:17.does not look good at all. This is something voters really care about.
:05:18. > :05:25.We will be back later. Jamie McIvor, thank you for that. An audience has
:05:26. > :05:29.questioned Alex Salmond on the White Paper for independence yesterday.
:05:30. > :05:33.Civic Scotland and business were among the audience who put
:05:34. > :05:36.questions, ranging from Scotland's role in Europe to the future state
:05:37. > :05:42.of the economy. We start with a question on childcare. Don't believe
:05:43. > :05:46.there isn't a single woman in Scotland that would want to embrace
:05:47. > :05:55.this, I Will you make sure it gets out there? -- how do you? Politics
:05:56. > :05:58.is failing a significant section of our community and the referendum
:05:59. > :06:02.will not reach these people because they have lost confidence in
:06:03. > :06:10.politics. Are you worried about Madrid? I reflect along with other
:06:11. > :06:13.business associations and increasing frustration in the business
:06:14. > :06:18.community. What we need to see either costings which back-up the
:06:19. > :06:22.reassurances which are offered. On a variety of subjects, we will be
:06:23. > :06:29.publishing more. The White Paper is our platform. People want to engage
:06:30. > :06:35.in the debate. That was the first minister speaking at the meeting.
:06:36. > :06:38.That was a quickfire round look at some of the questions that were
:06:39. > :06:45.there. You were at the meeting. What was the general feeling? It was a
:06:46. > :06:50.funny event, in a way. I find it amazing that the government can take
:06:51. > :06:57.so much time to take this on the road. But they are creating debate
:06:58. > :07:03.around the issues, which is very interesting. As a journalist, I am
:07:04. > :07:08.inclined to be cynical. It is in my DNA. But travelling away from that,
:07:09. > :07:13.I spoke to people at the meeting and they were impressed. They were
:07:14. > :07:18.impressed that issues I had just referred to like early years had
:07:19. > :07:24.been raised. The danger for better together is that they allowed the
:07:25. > :07:29.SNP and the yes campaign to dominate those issues. They can say they are
:07:30. > :07:36.the only people talking about these things in Scotland. I really think
:07:37. > :07:40.that is an interesting issue and I know there are a lot of people who
:07:41. > :07:49.don't know, and I think you might see some movement, whatever the
:07:50. > :07:53.polling says. We started with the clip on childcare, that was a huge
:07:54. > :07:58.issue. How much did people discuss that yesterday and what was the
:07:59. > :08:03.focus of that? Your clip has picked up from memory pretty much all the
:08:04. > :08:13.questions about that. It was very broad. Their work logical -- there
:08:14. > :08:18.was some critical voiceplu-mac. I think the reaction was positive.
:08:19. > :08:24.They got hundreds of people into a room and they made them think, what
:08:25. > :08:29.shape do we want Scotland to be? You might not agree with that but it was
:08:30. > :08:35.an interesting discussion. Alex Salmond was saying he would publish
:08:36. > :08:39.more detail. Was the White Paper meant to be definitive in terms of
:08:40. > :08:44.what was laid out? It is interesting he says there will be more detail.
:08:45. > :08:49.That was my impression, that it was meant to be definitive, and in the
:08:50. > :08:52.months before you were hearing there was a worry that there would be
:08:53. > :08:57.nothing there, and in fact there was hundreds of pages, the one thing
:08:58. > :09:05.was, there was not a cost structure, there was no Bill, what it would
:09:06. > :09:07.cost. It seems to me, the White Paper suggest that you could have
:09:08. > :09:11.everything, you could have this and this and this, what struck me was
:09:12. > :09:20.you could have this or this, you cannot have childcare on a Swedish
:09:21. > :09:26.model and low taxation. You have to make a choice. Moving onto the next
:09:27. > :09:31.issue, the live statement in Parliament coming up in a moment,
:09:32. > :09:38.the finance secretary is going to speak about the budget for 2015,
:09:39. > :09:44.local authorities, the councils will be watching with interest. With
:09:45. > :09:52.bated breath, it is unlucky or ironic, coming out on the same day
:09:53. > :09:59.as the school statistics. What you feel instinctively is what we always
:10:00. > :10:05.call Cinderella services, literary services are really suffering here.
:10:06. > :10:11.They will suffer some more. John Swinney will lay out in the
:10:12. > :10:13.statement some of the partnership working is that they have with local
:10:14. > :10:18.authorities when it comes to schools, the number of teachers,
:10:19. > :10:21.probably talking about the council tax as well. It does seem local
:10:22. > :10:26.authorities are under pressure because of the council tax freeze.
:10:27. > :10:35.Massively under pressure. The council tax freeze seems to me as
:10:36. > :10:41.very strange policy, I have never really understood it. It is not a
:10:42. > :10:46.fair tax, it penalises people at the lower end to the benefit of people
:10:47. > :10:51.who can afford to pay it. I don't understood that, I have never
:10:52. > :10:56.understood it. It is interesting that this ties in with the previous
:10:57. > :11:05.discussion about education funding, class sizes. Very much so. If you
:11:06. > :11:09.have had kids in school, you just hear this all the time. This
:11:10. > :11:17.constant tension about school resources is there all the time.
:11:18. > :11:22.Ministers are burying their heads in the sand if they don't hear that. It
:11:23. > :11:27.is very evident if you're a parent. Thanks very much for that. The
:11:28. > :11:32.Presiding Officer is now speaking in the parliament just now. I think the
:11:33. > :11:38.finance secretary John Swinney is just taking his seat in the chamber,
:11:39. > :11:42.ready to give that statement on the financial settlement for local
:11:43. > :11:47.authorities, 2014-2015. After that, we will be hearing from the Scottish
:11:48. > :11:53.Conservative-led debate on the Autumn Statement. Here is John
:11:54. > :11:58.Swinney with that statement. There should be no interruptions or
:11:59. > :12:04.interventions. I call on John Swinney, you have ten minutes. I
:12:05. > :12:07.statement will cover two topics. I will update the local government
:12:08. > :12:11.settlement for the current financial year, set out the terms of the
:12:12. > :12:19.provisional settlement, and confirm the overall total figures for
:12:20. > :12:25.2015-2016. I will update Parliament on the business rate proposals for
:12:26. > :12:30.Scotland. Copies of the tables containing the information are
:12:31. > :12:33.available. This plays a major role in local partnerships that are
:12:34. > :12:36.essential to the delivery of the outcomes that matter for the people
:12:37. > :12:42.of Scotland. In recognising this we have maintained our strong
:12:43. > :12:49.partnership with COSLA. We have set agreements against a backdrop of
:12:50. > :12:54.continued financial constraints in Scotland from the United Kingdom
:12:55. > :12:59.government. Turing this period, we have remained committed to that
:13:00. > :13:02.partnership and protected local government as much as possible to
:13:03. > :13:12.shield communities from the worst of these cuts. Between 2007-2008 and
:13:13. > :13:20.2012-2013, the resources increased by 4.6%, and local government
:13:21. > :13:30.budgets improved by 8.9%. This degree of protection has continued
:13:31. > :13:34.and between 2013-2014 and 2015-2016, the resources under the Scottish
:13:35. > :13:43.Government's control will increase by 2%. -- 0.2%. The share of total
:13:44. > :13:47.revenue funding within the government control will have
:13:48. > :13:50.increased. There can be no argument whilst times have been tight, local
:13:51. > :13:57.government has been fairly funded. The figures resulting from the
:13:58. > :14:01.Spending Review resulted in a flat cash settlement on a like-for-like
:14:02. > :14:07.basis compared to an 8% cash reduction in England over the same
:14:08. > :14:12.period. In connection with 2013-2014, I am able to confirm some
:14:13. > :14:19.additional funding for lip -- over ?60 million. That has been discussed
:14:20. > :14:23.with COSLA. This sum will be partially offset by a recovery of
:14:24. > :14:27.around ?41 million from local authorities in respect of both
:14:28. > :14:30.committed and uncommitted police reserves that have been returned to
:14:31. > :14:33.local authorities following the winding up of the former joint
:14:34. > :14:39.boards and the successful establishment of police Scotland.
:14:40. > :14:42.This ?41 million represents the Scottish Government's share of the
:14:43. > :14:48.outstanding reserves. The additional sums are as follows: ?27.5 million
:14:49. > :14:54.previously held back for the teacher induction scheme, ?20 million to top
:14:55. > :14:58.up discretionary housing payments, ?4 million for second languages and
:14:59. > :15:02.?2.5 million in respect of the National care home contract. On a
:15:03. > :15:07.like-for-like basis, the 2015 settlement represents cash with
:15:08. > :15:12.additional funding for extra responsibilities. We have also
:15:13. > :15:15.continued to honour our commitment to maintain local government's share
:15:16. > :15:21.of the overall capital resources within the Scottish budget. The
:15:22. > :15:23.settlement originally set out as part of the three-year local
:15:24. > :15:30.government finance settlement covering the period to 2015 has been
:15:31. > :15:34.maintained this by the significant challenges presented by the recent
:15:35. > :15:37.outcome of the various UK budgets and the June 2013 spending round
:15:38. > :15:44.which have resulted in further cuts in post on the budget for 2015. None
:15:45. > :15:57.of those reductions in Scotland's budget which resulted to ?40.6
:15:58. > :16:01.million in 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 have been passed on to local
:16:02. > :16:07.government. Support will amount to almost ?10.6 billion, including
:16:08. > :16:11.revenue and capital funding along with income raised from business
:16:12. > :16:15.rates. Within the total funding package it will amount to ?985
:16:16. > :16:27.million, including the funding to deliver council tax freeze. Capital
:16:28. > :16:31.of ?773 million. The total includes a further 81 million to deliver on
:16:32. > :16:36.the commitment to fully fund the additional cost of early learning
:16:37. > :16:42.and childcare. This is ?51 million from revenue costs and 30 million
:16:43. > :16:46.for capital expenditure. As of August 20 14, three-year-olds and
:16:47. > :16:53.four-year-olds will be eligible for 600 hours of care, and increase on
:16:54. > :16:59.the 475 currently. This package will save the average family ?707 a
:17:00. > :17:06.year, per child. The total revenue includes small changes since the
:17:07. > :17:10.publication of the draft budget. The main being the addition of the 20
:17:11. > :17:15.million for the discretionary housing payments to alleviate the
:17:16. > :17:19.impact of the bedroom tax. As part of the partnership approach, local
:17:20. > :17:23.government agreed to deliver priorities for the people of
:17:24. > :17:28.Scotland. The agreement was described in my letter to this list
:17:29. > :17:33.macro that set out the terms of the settlement. As part of it, local
:17:34. > :17:37.authorities will freeze the council tax, which has continued to help
:17:38. > :17:43.families in tough times. Maintain teacher numbers in line with new
:17:44. > :17:48.above numbers, secure places the probationers and work with the NHS
:17:49. > :17:55.to the integration of adult health and social care. The Finance
:17:56. > :18:00.Secretary speaking live. After those proceedings, MSPs will debate the
:18:01. > :18:05.Autumn Statement. If you want to get the debate live, you can watch it on
:18:06. > :18:10.the BBC democracy live website from 3:10pm. The Conservative lead debate
:18:11. > :18:21.praises the work of George Osborne and opponents criticise it. We can
:18:22. > :18:27.discuss that now. SNP's Jamie Hepburn. Iain Gray from Labour. And
:18:28. > :18:30.the Conservatives' Murdo Fraser. There is praise the George Osborne
:18:31. > :18:37.in the debate, led by your colleague Gavin Brown, but what about the
:18:38. > :18:40.amendment put forward that the austerity drive has resulted in
:18:41. > :18:47.opportunities for growth being missed? The economy is 5.9 smaller,
:18:48. > :18:53.five but 9% in 2015, than forecast in 2010. John Swinney and his
:18:54. > :19:00.colleagues have been left looking ridiculous following the recovery in
:19:01. > :19:03.the UK over the past year. They told us relentlessly over the past five
:19:04. > :19:10.years that the austerity programme would choke off any recovery, that
:19:11. > :19:19.we would never see the economy grow and their hat to be a plan B. Time
:19:20. > :19:23.after time we heard SNP spokespeople trotting out these lines and they
:19:24. > :19:28.have been proven wrong. The economy is growing faster than virtually any
:19:29. > :19:34.other Western economy as a result of those decisions the UK government
:19:35. > :19:37.took. It is right we congratulate the UK government and we recognise
:19:38. > :19:43.the benefit to Scotland from the Autumn Statement. Scottish
:19:44. > :19:46.businesses will benefit by 45 million through the scrapping of
:19:47. > :19:54.employers national short runs contributions for the under 21. And
:19:55. > :20:03.a consequence of ?308 million of the decisions taken by George Osborne.
:20:04. > :20:07.Jamie Hepburn, you have been made to look ridiculous according to Mr
:20:08. > :20:17.Fraser with the growth projections revised upwards. I do not think so.
:20:18. > :20:24.You made the point, Andrew, that in terms of where growth is now, and
:20:25. > :20:29.2015, it is lower than forecast in 2010 and it is interesting to hear
:20:30. > :20:34.Murdo Fraser and talk of the UK economy growing faster than any
:20:35. > :20:40.other developed country, which is predicted by the office of budget
:20:41. > :20:43.responsibility. It is interesting to see the conservative than an
:20:44. > :20:47.spokesperson leading the debate for the Tories. He was with me at the
:20:48. > :20:52.Finance committee last week and we had a professor, David Bell, telling
:20:53. > :21:00.us that forecast record of the office the budget responsibility is
:21:01. > :21:04.not that good. Labour are in an awkward position. We heard is the
:21:05. > :21:09.mantra that their hat to be a plan B, but when you hear these figures,
:21:10. > :21:14.you hear about the economy growing, does it leave you in a difficult
:21:15. > :21:17.position? In your amendment, you focus on calling for the Scottish
:21:18. > :21:24.government to use more money for childcare. That is right. I feel
:21:25. > :21:29.sorry for Murdo Fraser in a way because this is an attempt by the
:21:30. > :21:34.Tories here to get in on George Osborne's Autumn Statement, which
:21:35. > :21:39.was meant to proclaim the recovery had happened and austerity worked,
:21:40. > :21:44.and that unravels. The day after, opinion polls showed that 70% of the
:21:45. > :21:50.public do not believe there is a recovery, which is not surprising.
:21:51. > :21:54.In general, people are ?1600 a year worse off than when the Tories came
:21:55. > :22:01.to power. We can argue about numbers on the deficit, but people do not
:22:02. > :22:11.feel a recovery because their wages are worth less and they buy less.
:22:12. > :22:15.They feel a squeeze. There is an opportunity for the SNP in the
:22:16. > :22:20.Autumn Statement. He is correct when he says there are over ?300 million
:22:21. > :22:25.of consequence, additional money coming to the Scottish government
:22:26. > :22:32.over the next two years. That is what our amendment focuses on. We
:22:33. > :22:37.say to the SNP, since they launched the White Paper on childcare, the
:22:38. > :22:40.importance and the transformational power of extending childcare, and
:22:41. > :22:45.when asked why they would not do that, they said they did not have
:22:46. > :22:51.the money. They do have money now. They should use it for this
:22:52. > :22:56.priority, we say. Murdo Fraser, it is a cost of living crisis, that is
:22:57. > :23:01.the Labour mantra. I would say gently to him that it was not a
:23:02. > :23:07.Conservative government that was in power when the economic crisis
:23:08. > :23:11.happened. We are dealing with a legacy of economic mismanagement
:23:12. > :23:16.taken by the previous government. It lasted longer than we hoped, the
:23:17. > :23:21.recession, which we saw across the euro zone. We are coming out of
:23:22. > :23:26.that. The Labour Party needs to take responsibility with the decisions
:23:27. > :23:31.they took in government. We saw from Ed Balls last week and today, no
:23:32. > :23:35.access items from the Labour Party for the current state of the
:23:36. > :23:40.economy. We know times are hard. They are starting to get better,
:23:41. > :23:44.slowly, and that is good news. It was not the Conservative government
:23:45. > :23:52.that cause that to happen. The second point he put to Mr Byrne. Mr
:23:53. > :23:58.Graves says you can use the money to pay for childcare provision. -- Iain
:23:59. > :24:05.Gray. This is the hope in Scotland's future, the White Paper,
:24:06. > :24:11.why not use the money now? I agree, people at the sharp end of the
:24:12. > :24:17.economy would question the recovery and I agree with the comments that
:24:18. > :24:21.Iain Gray made. In terms of childcare, he made the point about
:24:22. > :24:27.the money coming for a two-year period. He had put in a childcare --
:24:28. > :24:33.if you put a childcare policy in, it has to be for the long-term. We have
:24:34. > :24:37.ambitious plans. We just heard in the statement from John Swinney, the
:24:38. > :24:46.extension of the number of hours per year. Going up from 475 up to 600.
:24:47. > :24:55.At the heart of the White Paper we have a proposal to have every child
:24:56. > :25:00.over the age of one getting the childcare, costing ?700 million a
:25:01. > :25:09.year, there is no way we could afford that under devolution. We
:25:10. > :25:13.have two leave it there. Thanks. The body of Nelson Mandela is lying in
:25:14. > :25:16.state in Pretoria. Thousands of people are queuing to pay their
:25:17. > :25:18.respects. Mr Mandela died last Thursday and many people across
:25:19. > :25:21.Scotland have been remembering their role in the anti-apartheid campaign.
:25:22. > :25:26.Yesterday in Parliament, MSPs gave their tributes to the former ANC
:25:27. > :25:30.leader. He provided an example to people across the planet and
:25:31. > :25:34.encouraged us to live up to our better natures. He inspired us to
:25:35. > :25:41.work for the day in the words that resounded around the parliament that
:25:42. > :25:48.when it was open, . Today, this Parliament extends our condolences
:25:49. > :25:52.to the great man's family and to the people of South Africa. The world is
:25:53. > :26:00.much poorer for his passing, but much richer for his life. When
:26:01. > :26:06.Nelson Mandela walked out of jail, tall, dignified, smiling, unbroken,
:26:07. > :26:12.how many found hope again? A belief that change may be possible because
:26:13. > :26:15.of this man and because of the decisions to Roy Cott and support
:26:16. > :26:22.sanctions and to challenge investment in South Africa --
:26:23. > :26:27.boycott. That work could make a difference and there was a point in
:26:28. > :26:32.politics and campaigning. He was the best of Africa and humanity, he was
:26:33. > :26:37.the best of us all. Many members of my party did not reckon lies
:26:38. > :26:43.apartheid for the grave violation of human dignity it was and did not act
:26:44. > :26:46.the struggle to end it. It is a stain on the party as they find
:26:47. > :26:52.themselves on the wrong side of history. Nelson Mandela did not just
:26:53. > :26:56.speak for South Africa, but to the world. His message of faith,
:26:57. > :27:03.forgiveness and human dignity makes him a man for all time. Today as we
:27:04. > :27:09.reflect his life, he lifts is up to work to a better world, where, as he
:27:10. > :27:14.said, we close the circle and we howled the advent of a glorious
:27:15. > :27:23.summer of a partnership for freedom, peace, prosperity and friendship.
:27:24. > :27:29.Consigning war, poverty and racism and injustice to history might seem
:27:30. > :27:33.impossible. We will need the sense of justice, the courage, the
:27:34. > :27:38.resilience and humanity who showed if we are ever to be able to say as
:27:39. > :27:49.he did, it always seems in possible until it is done. -- impossible. We
:27:50. > :27:51.can speak to Mike and weighed again. Many memories of Nelson
:27:52. > :28:11.Mandela. -- -- Mike Wade. There were fantastic
:28:12. > :28:15.scenes. At football matches, a minute's applause. Everywhere I have
:28:16. > :28:26.been. People remember. It is right they are in motion. As one pointed
:28:27. > :28:30.out, the stain on her party, an interesting article by Brian Wilson
:28:31. > :28:33.in the Scotsman newspaper saying that those who campaigned against
:28:34. > :28:41.apartheid were not numerous in Scotland. In specific periods he was
:28:42. > :28:51.talking about that was true. He said there is a need to look at history,
:28:52. > :28:56.warts and all. This was when Peter Hain cut his political teeth, and
:28:57. > :29:02.Brian Wilson, these people were arrested. They were treated badly.
:29:03. > :29:07.They were not popular. Rugby crowds booed them when they wanted the tour
:29:08. > :29:11.to go ahead. She was very good to point that out, saying we were not
:29:12. > :29:25.always on the right side. Interesting but Alex Salmond quoted
:29:26. > :29:35.Robert Burns. When you think of the slave plantation and the massive
:29:36. > :29:44.Rhondda. The fact of history. A lot -- -- massive wrong. Over the past
:29:45. > :29:52.few weeks we have cupboards -- cover the debate on plans to abolish
:29:53. > :29:54.corroboration. The centuries old legal measure requires evidence from
:29:55. > :29:57.two sources in criminal trials. Yesterday, experts giving evidence
:29:58. > :30:00.to the Justice Committee were asked whether there were enough safeguards
:30:01. > :30:03.in the Criminal Scotland Bill to avoid miscarriages of justice if it
:30:04. > :30:07.was removed. This will sound like a circular argument. The fact there is
:30:08. > :30:11.a requirement for sufficiency of evidence is more important than
:30:12. > :30:18.people have recognised, because, in fact, given the tendency for the
:30:19. > :30:22.legal profession to be quite conservative, they will not need to
:30:23. > :30:27.look far in the interpretation of sufficiency to find that they
:30:28. > :30:33.discover corroboration would provide the sufficiency. Again, I suspect
:30:34. > :30:40.the discussion will come full circle and in order for prosecutors and the
:30:41. > :30:45.jury, particularly with sexual offences and domestic abuse, and in
:30:46. > :30:50.cases involving children, I think that juries will look to have the
:30:51. > :30:55.security of something equivalent to corroboration in order to achieve
:30:56. > :31:03.sufficiency. They will be charged by the judge to find that. You would
:31:04. > :31:07.find that into sources. If it went to the Scottish Law commission, it
:31:08. > :31:16.could have a detailed look at other safeguards, would sufficiency ensure
:31:17. > :31:24.that you would be protected from the credible but lying witness? We heard
:31:25. > :31:30.the Cabinet Secretary stressed he wants to widen access to justice. I
:31:31. > :31:36.wonder what the view is about whether or not this will result in
:31:37. > :31:45.more prosecutions, but not necessarily more convictions. We
:31:46. > :31:49.have seen evidence from the police and the Crown office suggesting
:31:50. > :31:55.there would be additional prosecutions. We know from evidence
:31:56. > :32:00.that it is very difficult to get a conviction without corroboration, so
:32:01. > :32:05.the ultimate number of convictions would be unlikely to go up. The
:32:06. > :32:13.danger with abolishing it is it is unlikely that you create another --
:32:14. > :32:21.a number of wrongful convictions but you let cases through the net.
:32:22. > :32:26.Numbers are likely to be small. The point was made about sending people
:32:27. > :32:32.to court, which is a risky prosecution that fails. The party
:32:33. > :32:36.would be acquitted. They took the view that the woman would rather go
:32:37. > :32:44.to court. What do you say about that? I do not see court as therapy.
:32:45. > :32:47.If it was better that they got to tell their story, there would then
:32:48. > :32:56.be a culture change in the judiciary. I cannot add anything to
:32:57. > :33:00.your comments. There is difficulty with seeing court as a therapeutic
:33:01. > :33:04.process. It is not a view that is expressed very often by people who
:33:05. > :33:08.have been through the process. Now to Prime Minister's Questions where
:33:09. > :33:14.David Cameron and Ed Miliband have criticised plans to award MPs and
:33:15. > :33:17.11% pay rise. The Prime Minister said the recommendations of the
:33:18. > :33:21.Parliamentary watchdog would be simply unacceptable.
:33:22. > :33:28.Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, does the Prime Minister agree with me that
:33:29. > :33:32.given the crisis ordinary families are facing in their living
:33:33. > :33:37.standards, MPs should not be awarded a pay rise many times above
:33:38. > :33:41.inflation? I do agree with him about that issue. It would be wrong for
:33:42. > :33:45.MPs to get a big pay rise at a time of public sector pay restraint. All
:33:46. > :33:50.three party leaders agree on that, we have all made that point, and we
:33:51. > :33:54.should be clear that what they have said is not a final recommendation.
:33:55. > :33:56.The reason this is not the right time for this pay rise is because
:33:57. > :34:00.most people are going through the biggest cost of living crisis in a
:34:01. > :34:05.generation, and I want to turn to that cost of living crisis. Last
:34:06. > :34:13.Thursday, the Chancellor claimed living standards were rising. That
:34:14. > :34:15.is just not the case, is it? I thought the Institute of fiscal
:34:16. > :34:20.studies put this very clearly, they said, we have had a great big
:34:21. > :34:24.recession, we have had the biggest recession in a hundred years. It
:34:25. > :34:29.would be astonishing if household incomes had not fallen and earnings
:34:30. > :34:44.had not fallen, but the fact is that is the legacy of what they left us.
:34:45. > :34:52.A great start. Can I thank the Prime Minister for saving my marriage?
:34:53. > :34:56.Carolyn was just about to sign the divorce papers when she heard the
:34:57. > :35:03.report that if we stayed together we would be in line for a sweet ?150 a
:35:04. > :35:10.year tax break. But if, as the Prime Minister says, marriage must be
:35:11. > :35:14.underpinned by the tax system, why is it since the tax allowance was
:35:15. > :35:22.abolished the divorce rate has gone down? I am delighted happiness is
:35:23. > :35:26.maintained in the Harris household, but I could put it another way. It
:35:27. > :35:32.was only when I started talking about the allowance that the Leader
:35:33. > :35:39.of the Opposition tied the knot. The tax system moves in mysterious ways.
:35:40. > :35:41.Abolishing roaming charges is one of the big victories for British
:35:42. > :35:46.consumers we might get from remaining in the European Union. As
:35:47. > :35:49.the Prime Minister had the opportunity to discuss international
:35:50. > :35:56.mobile phone usage with any other European heads of government in the
:35:57. > :36:00.last day off -- last day? You could say, in a roundabout way. You should
:36:01. > :36:04.always remember that television cameras are always on, but I would
:36:05. > :36:08.say Nelson Mandela Place an extraordinary role in his life and
:36:09. > :36:11.death of bringing people together, and when a member of the Kinnock
:36:12. > :36:18.family ask for a photograph I thought it only polite to say yes. A
:36:19. > :36:22.reference to the photograph David Cameron was taking yesterday at the
:36:23. > :36:28.Nelson Mandela tribute. Our correspondent is standing by. It is
:36:29. > :36:33.over to you. Thank you. I promise I will not take a photograph. There
:36:34. > :36:39.will be discussion about what people might call self-interest. MPs
:36:40. > :36:42.getting an 11% pay increase. How can they justify it? Can they do
:36:43. > :36:51.anything to stop it? Joining me are Angus MacNeil and Jeremy Purvis. He
:36:52. > :36:56.has recently taken his seat in the House of Lords. Jeremy Purvis, you
:36:57. > :37:03.were in Hollywood, no Westminster, it does not affect you directly.
:37:04. > :37:10.This is dreadful, isn't it? A committee recommending a pay
:37:11. > :37:14.increase. Yes, and especially what sacrifices workers have had over the
:37:15. > :37:19.last couple of years, I think there is an indefensible position. I am
:37:20. > :37:25.pleased that the Scottish parliament have made a decision to break the
:37:26. > :37:28.link. I think many of your viewers would be confused as to why there
:37:29. > :37:34.was a link, but that is how the system was established. I think many
:37:35. > :37:40.senior MPs in my party have said they would not take it anyway, so
:37:41. > :37:47.they are trying to send a strong signal. Angus MacNeil, how can this
:37:48. > :37:56.problem be resolved? It is an independent committee. They come up
:37:57. > :38:05.with the recommendation and now you could be embarrassed if it goes
:38:06. > :38:09.ahead. MPs are seething because they are left to come and defend or
:38:10. > :38:18.explain. I am an string the question but it should be IPSA and soaring.
:38:19. > :38:26.-- and syringa question. -- giving the answer to the question. There is
:38:27. > :38:31.no way this can be justified at all. Where are IPSA? They should be
:38:32. > :38:38.defending the ludicrous idea. In fairness, they will probably come
:38:39. > :38:47.out and give their cancers. -- answers. Surely no MPs cannot set
:38:48. > :38:51.their own wages? They are not, this is independent, I do not have
:38:52. > :39:01.anything to do with this, I think the situation is a mess. The mood of
:39:02. > :39:09.MPs across political parties is they have left MPs with eggs on their
:39:10. > :39:13.faces. This is the issue of IPSA, it is nothing to do with me or the MPs.
:39:14. > :39:21.They should sort this out and they should not be suggesting this at a
:39:22. > :39:26.time like this. I cannot say this is justified. Jeremy Purvis, you
:39:27. > :39:36.alluded that the Scottish Parliament might separate. -- separate what
:39:37. > :39:42.they get. The trouble is, if you do separate that, is there a temptation
:39:43. > :39:48.for MSPs to set their own page? I think that discussions are positive,
:39:49. > :39:55.but it does not necessarily mean the link should be broken with the
:39:56. > :39:58.allowances scheme, the Parliament in Scotland put in a more open and
:39:59. > :40:03.transparent scheme that I operated under as an MSP, I did not have the
:40:04. > :40:10.controversy that this institution had when I was in Holyrood. That was
:40:11. > :40:16.the MSPs themselves. Having a system that was more open, greater
:40:17. > :40:19.accountability, there can be some areas where you set the parameters
:40:20. > :40:23.of what a public representative should have as their pay and
:40:24. > :40:27.conditions. Within that, there can be independent bodies that make sure
:40:28. > :40:37.it is fleeced, administered, and the crucial aspect is transparency. --
:40:38. > :40:42.policed. It is a week since the Autumn Statement at Westminster, for
:40:43. > :40:47.very obvious reasons, over shadowed by what happened in South Africa.
:40:48. > :40:51.One week later, does the Autumn Statement still look as though it
:40:52. > :40:54.will get growth back to where it is needed? I hope so, and certainly
:40:55. > :40:59.some of the measures will be positive for Scotland. One measure
:41:00. > :41:01.that has not had the profile it deserves is getting rid of the
:41:02. > :41:08.national insurance contribution for under 21. My own area in the
:41:09. > :41:15.Borders, in the rural areas of Scotland, MPs will begin in support
:41:16. > :41:18.to help young people. -- be given support. It means there is extra
:41:19. > :41:22.money to the Scottish budget. That means there is pressure on the SNP
:41:23. > :41:26.Government to make sure that they make a contribution, but as far as
:41:27. > :41:31.supporting an economy that is starting to grow and the
:41:32. > :41:35.contribution that Lib Dems have made for macroeconomic growth, it is
:41:36. > :41:39.positive for Scotland. Angus MacNeil, is it going to get growth
:41:40. > :41:44.back? The policies that have been followed by the Chancellor have
:41:45. > :41:50.delayed growth. The economy is smaller than it was in 2010. Workers
:41:51. > :41:56.are worst off. That is unprecedented. We have passenger
:41:57. > :42:00.duty strangling growth in Scotland, it is a management tool for
:42:01. > :42:06.Heathrow. The answers are not the answer is for Scotland, which is why
:42:07. > :42:09.people will vote Yes and move powers to Scotland. Only then can we get
:42:10. > :42:14.the right policies to fit the Scottish economy rather than being
:42:15. > :42:21.with the asperity of George Osborne -- austerity. It is a fairly safe
:42:22. > :42:26.bet that the 18th of September might, in conversation once or twice
:42:27. > :42:32.in the coming year. From us, goodbye.
:42:33. > :42:42.I am joined once again by Mike Wade. One final thought. MPs are cotton
:42:43. > :42:51.between a rock and a hard place with their salary. -- caught. They have
:42:52. > :42:54.outsourced it and nobody is happy. I cannot see any MP coming forward to
:42:55. > :43:01.say that they deserve the rise. I think they should be fairly
:43:02. > :43:07.well-paid. I think MPs land up about the same level of popularity with
:43:08. > :43:13.journalists but I think they do an important job. The mistake was
:43:14. > :43:17.perhaps not when the expenses scandal came up, which is really
:43:18. > :43:29.tied with how cruelly paid they are, to land the boil. -- hourly paid --
:43:30. > :43:33.poorly. Scotland has separated the salaries, MSPs will have lower
:43:34. > :43:39.salaries. That is probably for them, I suppose. Fair enough. Mike
:43:40. > :43:43.Wade, thank you for your company. That is all we have time for this
:43:44. > :43:49.week. We are back at the same time next week. 2:30pm on BBC Two. It
:43:50. > :43:50.will be the final programme of the year. Thanks for your company.
:43:51. > :43:52.Goodbye.