:00:15. > :00:17.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:18. > :00:20.Coming up on the programme this afternoon:
:00:21. > :00:23.How will Scotland trade with the European Union following Brexit?
:00:24. > :00:29.And John Swinney is probed about the legal
:00:30. > :00:36.And here at Westminster - more questions, but not
:00:37. > :00:41.necessarily answers, on exactly what Brexit will mean.
:00:42. > :00:45.This afternoon, Nicola Sturgeon faced questions from MSPs on Europe.
:00:46. > :00:49.She said it's misguided to think Brexit will be fine
:00:50. > :00:51.and that she remains profoundly concerned about the impact on
:00:52. > :00:55.Our poltiical editor Brian Taylor has been
:00:56. > :01:02.following events and joins us from the Scottish Parliament.
:01:03. > :01:09.What is happening? Thank you. Basically, three parliaments but one
:01:10. > :01:13.topic, Brexit. We will be hearing later about the position at
:01:14. > :01:20.Westminster. The Parliamentary leader asked me by Minister about
:01:21. > :01:24.the aspects of Brexit, the financial institutions and he asked her to
:01:25. > :01:29.confirm it would be an objective of Britain to Remain as a member of the
:01:30. > :01:33.European single market. Membership, once again as last week, the Prime
:01:34. > :01:38.Minister declined to use those precise terms. She just said in
:01:39. > :01:42.general terms Britain would seek the best outcome. In the European
:01:43. > :01:46.Parliament, we had the commission president dealing with the prospect
:01:47. > :01:52.of the European union without Britain and dealing, as it would
:01:53. > :02:00.imagine, with two in an upbeat way. Last year, he said there was not
:02:01. > :02:07.enough Europe in the. The objective of greater integration could be
:02:08. > :02:11.achieved in the absence of Britain, he suggested. He talked about the
:02:12. > :02:16.single market and said the could not be membership of the single market
:02:17. > :02:21.without accepting the transfer of Labour. He said he could Named
:02:22. > :02:29.Persons you could not have the ala carte single market. Holyrood will
:02:30. > :02:33.begin to debate the issue of the European Union and Scotland's place
:02:34. > :02:36.within that. We will hear from the Minister dealing with negotiations
:02:37. > :02:41.on behalf of the Scottish Government. He is due to meet David
:02:42. > :02:44.Davis, the Brexit minister in the UK Government tomorrow. What we're
:02:45. > :02:50.trying to do is set the parameters. The Scottish Government wants to
:02:51. > :02:55.embed itself into the European committee and intervals negotiation
:02:56. > :03:03.proceedings. She does not want to be window and just consulted and patted
:03:04. > :03:08.upon the head. She once an actual role in formulating Britain's
:03:09. > :03:14.position and accepting after article 50 is triggered, it will be
:03:15. > :03:18.negotiation and Scotland needs to be in on the ground floor. Nicholas
:03:19. > :03:25.Sturridge and said it was gobsmacking that there had not been
:03:26. > :03:30.a position advanced ready by the UK Government. -- Nicola Sturgeon. She
:03:31. > :03:35.said when she was doing the referendum on UK Independence she
:03:36. > :03:41.was expected to have plans from a to Z and now the UK Government does not
:03:42. > :03:47.have a plan. WHILST SEEKING A POSITION ON THE UK GOVERNMENT
:03:48. > :03:51.NEGOTIATIONS, the starting point was not Independence but if those
:03:52. > :03:56.negotiations failed to produce a result in Scotland's interest, it
:03:57. > :03:57.would be wrong to keep the option of independence referendum of the
:03:58. > :03:59.table. The national roll-out of the scheme
:04:00. > :04:02.which assigns a "state guardian" to every child in Scotland,
:04:03. > :04:05.has been delayed for a year after the Supreme Court branded
:04:06. > :04:07.elements of it unlawful. The Education Secretary John Swinney
:04:08. > :04:09.told a Holyrood Committee this morning he could not provide
:04:10. > :04:12.guarantees that pilots of the controversial Named Person
:04:13. > :04:18.policy had kept within the law. Our local government correspondent
:04:19. > :04:22.Jamie McIvor has more. Well, of course the question
:04:23. > :04:27.on named person is really whether the practicalities
:04:28. > :04:28.of the scheme will actually be different to those
:04:29. > :04:31.which were originally envisaged. To remind you, the scheme should
:04:32. > :04:34.have come into effect by now. The government hopes to have it up
:04:35. > :04:39.and running by next August after what they say will be a
:04:40. > :04:42.period of intense engagement. There is obviously the
:04:43. > :04:44.question of how the government deals with the concerns
:04:45. > :04:57.of the Supreme Court Mr Swinney said he was confident
:04:58. > :05:01.local authorities had not fallen foul of data sharing, although he
:05:02. > :05:06.accepted he could not guarantee they had kept within the law. There is
:05:07. > :05:09.also the issue of whether the practicalities will change. Labour
:05:10. > :05:11.would like to see 16 and 17-year-olds taken out.
:05:12. > :05:13.The party that actually opposes the scheme in principle
:05:14. > :05:20.Their education spokeswoman Liz Smith questioned John Swinney.
:05:21. > :05:29.When it comes to the overall arching aim of this policy that the supreme
:05:30. > :05:35.court said it was benign and legitimate. He also is a com it does
:05:36. > :05:39.not require any current policy change. Surely that cannot be
:05:40. > :05:45.correct when one aspect of the policy has been ruled unlawful. I
:05:46. > :05:50.think the point Liz Smith misses out on that question is the fact we are
:05:51. > :05:57.putting all of these provisions into statute as new provisions. The point
:05:58. > :06:01.I was trying to get across in the statement last Thursday is that
:06:02. > :06:05.essentially the Government is advancing a new legal framework,
:06:06. > :06:12.which this policy is to be delivered. That requires to be
:06:13. > :06:15.compatible with both the requirements and the test that the
:06:16. > :06:22.Supreme Court applied to this particular legislation. It is that
:06:23. > :06:33.legal framework that has to be compatible. John Swinney has been
:06:34. > :06:37.busy, hasn't he? Yesterday he was talking about education. Tell us
:06:38. > :06:42.about that. This consultation will be very interesting.
:06:43. > :06:45.The government sees it all as being about empowering head teachers -
:06:46. > :06:46.devolving as much power to schools as possible.
:06:47. > :06:49.There will also be regional boards designed to help schools
:06:50. > :06:50.across different areas work together.
:06:51. > :06:53.But the big question is just what role councils might actually be
:06:54. > :06:57.They'll have to make the case for every practical power over
:06:58. > :07:02.One question yesterday was whether schools would be able
:07:03. > :07:13.Well, one person put it to me that the question might well be
:07:14. > :07:16.what council control they'd actually be opting out of in practice once
:07:17. > :07:20.This could be a significant moment in the turf war between central
:07:21. > :07:24.But I think people in education will be more concerned
:07:25. > :07:29.about the practicalities here, not about the turf
:07:30. > :07:33.My guest today is Andy Maciver, director of the PR agency
:07:34. > :07:34.Message Matters, and former head of communications
:07:35. > :07:50.Both these issues, some questions. The Named Persons, I am not
:07:51. > :07:54.understanding this. If it has been ruled to be unlawful and of John
:07:55. > :07:59.Swinney is saying he cannot guarantee the way the pilots have
:08:00. > :08:03.been operated over the past year is lawful, he also seems to be seeing
:08:04. > :08:07.there is not a need for much change. I think he was seeing the pilots
:08:08. > :08:12.were operated successfully by local authorities and the problem with
:08:13. > :08:17.that was data protection. He seems to be saying that the legislation
:08:18. > :08:21.will be new. When this scheme gets rolled out nationwide, it will be
:08:22. > :08:25.new legislation and therefore that legislation will be compliant with
:08:26. > :08:31.everything in is to be compliant... They will have to change it, want a
:08:32. > :08:34.bid to take account of what the supreme court says? He has accepted
:08:35. > :08:38.that before. I don't think he accepted it in the answer to Liz
:08:39. > :08:43.Smith, but he has done before. The legal aspects of this will be ironed
:08:44. > :08:47.out. If they want this scheme to go ahead, clearly they will have to
:08:48. > :08:53.iron out any aspects. The bigger danger and is the perception of the
:08:54. > :09:02.hope policy. It is a difficult policy for the SNP mac. It is one of
:09:03. > :09:07.the policies and which public are against. They are not under much
:09:08. > :09:15.pressure from opposition, are they? Labour are still in favour of it.
:09:16. > :09:19.Labour's current position is that it should not extend up to
:09:20. > :09:23.18-year-olds. They want to limit it to 16-year-olds instead. That is
:09:24. > :09:26.hardly tackling the point of principle... The only opposition to
:09:27. > :09:30.it as from the Tories. I think from the Tories point of view, the onto
:09:31. > :09:35.an issue here. This is something that could go on for years and years
:09:36. > :09:40.and could be an election issue next time around. We are the only party
:09:41. > :09:50.that have the opposition to it. The SNP's own voters are against this
:09:51. > :09:53.policy as well. They say that has not been expressed properly and the
:09:54. > :09:56.media have not handled it properly. They have a big job to do to turn
:09:57. > :10:00.around. I am not understanding this education stuff. John Swinney says
:10:01. > :10:05.the consultation, big changes. When I read about what the changes are, I
:10:06. > :10:10.cannot actually work anything out. I do not think much has been said yet.
:10:11. > :10:14.We have had two small statements, in terms of education over the last
:10:15. > :10:20.week. The Nicholas Durden programme for Government and yesterday's
:10:21. > :10:24.statement, neither of which said a great deal. -- Nicola Sturgeon. They
:10:25. > :10:28.are going to make big changes in education and they say this is one
:10:29. > :10:33.big policy where they can make a massive change. I think they have
:10:34. > :10:39.something planned in that respect. It is very interesting at the moment
:10:40. > :10:43.because, as you know, over the past decade or more, education is, we
:10:44. > :10:48.need more money, we need more money. The SNP are thinking about this
:10:49. > :10:52.different way, aren't they? The hour thinking about London and perhaps
:10:53. > :11:01.the ruling out selection but that does not mean they could not import
:11:02. > :11:04.some ideas. They have ruled out selection in academies and that is
:11:05. > :11:09.because they did not want to be seen doing anything like England is
:11:10. > :11:15.doing. What John Swinney announced yesterday, removing authority
:11:16. > :11:19.control, is a huge step. It will be difficult to do that and they will
:11:20. > :11:23.have to take on local authorities and teaching unions, who will oppose
:11:24. > :11:26.it all. It is going to take a lot of courage and a lot of blood cult will
:11:27. > :11:34.to make a big difference in education. -- courage. Not enough
:11:35. > :11:40.information yesterday to see whether they are going to do that or take
:11:41. > :11:43.all the steps that are required. Passing powers to headteachers is
:11:44. > :11:48.what we do in Europe. It is important for them, they have staked
:11:49. > :11:54.their reputation on it. It cannot be waffle. The note we are struggling
:11:55. > :11:56.here. It is not doing well and the 08. We will be back with you in a
:11:57. > :11:57.moment. The issue of the European Union
:11:58. > :12:00.will take centre stage Mike Russell, the minister charged
:12:01. > :12:03.with making the Scottish case in negotiations,
:12:04. > :12:05.will urge political rivals to agree that Scotland must not be
:12:06. > :12:07."dragged from the single market". Let's cross over to
:12:08. > :12:18.the debating chamber. I think Mike Russell is on his feet.
:12:19. > :12:26.The shared aim of every member in this chamber and our country. I
:12:27. > :12:31.would like to echo how welcome for the report, which makes a valuable
:12:32. > :12:36.contribution and rightly prioritises access to the single market and
:12:37. > :12:40.reassurance for European nationals here. The key player in the
:12:41. > :12:44.engagement of the UK with Europe once observed that success of
:12:45. > :12:50.Butcombe offers requires the ability to get a good nights sleep with a
:12:51. > :12:54.key sense of history. -- political office. I do think the history of
:12:55. > :12:58.the post-war engagement with Europe is instructive. Written stood aside
:12:59. > :13:04.when the nations that were divided came together and envisaged a
:13:05. > :13:12.comment future in the 1950s. When confronted by steady British
:13:13. > :13:15.decline, we changed our minds in the 1960s and vetoed applications to
:13:16. > :13:22.join on two occasions. We were concerned that the UK had, what he
:13:23. > :13:26.described, as deep seated hostility to European engagement. He was
:13:27. > :13:31.talking about experience cost that deep-seated hostility drove the
:13:32. > :13:46.Leave campaign this year and still drives some of the hardest
:13:47. > :13:54.Brexiteers. In the 1970s was the. The UK had decided to deny itself
:13:55. > :13:59.and as people, end Heath's words, the opportunity available to us in a
:14:00. > :14:03.wider and more prosperous stage. Leaving, as he feared we might, so
:14:04. > :14:09.many aspects affecting our daily lives to be settled outside. The
:14:10. > :14:14.question for us in this chamber today is therefore a very clear, how
:14:15. > :14:19.do we stop that happening? How do we avoid the damage that will be caused
:14:20. > :14:26.for a Brexit we did not vote for and do not believe it will improve our
:14:27. > :14:32.nation. On the 28th... We did not vote for it... We participated in
:14:33. > :14:40.that vote as members of the United Kingdom.
:14:41. > :14:50.I am sure he is delighted with from the Tories. There is a basic
:14:51. > :14:52.difference between he and I on our understanding of nationhood. I
:14:53. > :14:55.understand that the people of Scotland are sovereign, they have
:14:56. > :15:01.the right to be sovereign, they should be heard. On the 20th of
:15:02. > :15:04.June... On the 28th of June, this Parliament entrusted the Scottish
:15:05. > :15:10.Parliament with a mandate which gave practical effect for the Democratic
:15:11. > :15:14.will of the people of Scotland. All options must include independence to
:15:15. > :15:18.protect Aaron -- relationship with the EU, our place in the single
:15:19. > :15:23.market and the benefits that flow from that. Since then, the Scottish
:15:24. > :15:26.Government has sought clarity from the Prime Minister and her new
:15:27. > :15:30.secretary for exiting the EU on how they will engage with the Scottish
:15:31. > :15:33.Government. I will come back to that later. I want to take the
:15:34. > :15:36.opportunity to reiterate this government's commitment to
:15:37. > :15:40.delivering on the mandate and invite this Parliament to continue to
:15:41. > :15:45.engage in all efforts to do so. That process is well underway. Her
:15:46. > :15:48.government has reassured business, and ensured that EU nationals who
:15:49. > :15:54.have chosen to make Scotland their home continue to feel welcome. In
:15:55. > :15:56.July the 1st Minister outlined five vital national interests which must
:15:57. > :16:01.underpin the actions of the government as we move forward. The
:16:02. > :16:04.Democratic interest, the economic interest, the maintenance of social
:16:05. > :16:06.protection, the principle of solidarity and the ability to
:16:07. > :16:12.exercise influence on decision-making. As we go forward
:16:13. > :16:15.according to the mandate set for us by the Scottish people and by this
:16:16. > :16:19.Parliament, we must continuously examine how those interests will be
:16:20. > :16:27.affected by and make the best protected within all the options
:16:28. > :16:31.that are open to us. Of course. The mandate given to us by our votes
:16:32. > :16:37.here in the Scottish Government, he quotes emphatically not a vote for a
:16:38. > :16:40.second referendum on independence. It seems to have changed since that
:16:41. > :16:46.thought. I would advise the Member to listen
:16:47. > :16:50.to Nick Clegg, who said yesterday he would have voted for independence!
:16:51. > :16:58.He is out of tune even with his own party. In July, the First Minister
:16:59. > :17:03.outlined five major interest. As we go forward according to the mandate
:17:04. > :17:05.set for us by the Scottish people and the Parliament, we will
:17:06. > :17:08.continuously examine how those interests will be affected by and
:17:09. > :17:14.might be best protected within the options which are open to us. All of
:17:15. > :17:18.the options. To provide the best advice from a wide range of
:17:19. > :17:20.experience and expertise, the First Minister established a standing
:17:21. > :17:24.Council of experts which has met twice. The new Cabinet subcommittee
:17:25. > :17:30.will meet for the first time next week. All Scottish ministers have
:17:31. > :17:33.been fully committed to working on the result of the referendum. The
:17:34. > :17:36.Deputy First Minister provided reassurance to EU students. The
:17:37. > :17:40.Minister for further education is working with the University of
:17:41. > :17:46.Scotland. Roseanna Cunningham has met with a wide range of
:17:47. > :17:49.environmental spokespersons who have spoken about the key role of EU
:17:50. > :17:52.membership in tackling environmental issues.
:17:53. > :17:54.Right, some good news on the economy.
:17:55. > :17:57.Unemployment has fallen, both in Scotland and across the UK.
:17:58. > :18:00.In fact, the rate in Scotland is now lower than the UK rate.
:18:01. > :18:03.Except, wasn't Brexit supposed to lead to economic disaster?
:18:04. > :18:06.Our economics editor Douglas Fraser is here.
:18:07. > :18:14.Give us the numbers. These are the monthly figures, which
:18:15. > :18:22.cover May, June and July. Those seeking work in Scotland is down by
:18:23. > :18:29.29,000 to 130,000. The other point rate is at 4.7%, pretty healthy.
:18:30. > :18:35.There is always a healthy number of people moving between jobs. The
:18:36. > :18:39.number is lower than the 4.9% figure for the UK as a whole for
:18:40. > :18:45.unemployment. There was clearly a gap opening up, and it has moved to
:18:46. > :18:51.Scotland's advantage. UK unemployment falling as well, but
:18:52. > :18:55.most of it was accounted for by what was happening in Scotland. This
:18:56. > :19:02.covers three months over the Brexit referendum, June 23. This covers
:19:03. > :19:07.May, June and July. It is too early to say, it is no real guide to the
:19:08. > :19:12.impact of the Brexit vote on the labour market. We are not quite
:19:13. > :19:16.clear how it is going to feed through, and we won't be for quite a
:19:17. > :19:19.few months to come. If there were two have been a sudden impact you
:19:20. > :19:28.might have expected to see it in the claimant count. Not a great deal of
:19:29. > :19:31.change in that can't. These figures are obviously welcomed by the
:19:32. > :19:37.political leadership of Scotland's different governments, but Brexit is
:19:38. > :19:42.what is concerning the Scottish Government in particular. The
:19:43. > :19:48.effects that they fear in future job numbers. Keith Brown was a visiting
:19:49. > :19:53.standard life in Edinburgh when we caught up with him.
:19:54. > :19:57.We see from different places concerns about future investment
:19:58. > :20:03.levels, confidence. As these figures demonstrate, we have been building
:20:04. > :20:07.up to a very positive and resilient economy in terms of employment.
:20:08. > :20:11.Those things do represent a danger, it is not inevitable, it is down to
:20:12. > :20:16.us to make sure that we mitigate any effect of Brexit. We would be in a
:20:17. > :20:21.better position if we did not have the uncertainty which wrecks it
:20:22. > :20:24.represents. There has been a debate going on
:20:25. > :20:27.about whether the quite bad performance of the Scottish economy
:20:28. > :20:31.until these figures was just to do with the problems in the oil
:20:32. > :20:38.industry or whether other factors were involved? This might indicate
:20:39. > :20:42.it is just the oil industry? It is unclear. Economists felt that
:20:43. > :20:45.something else was happening beyond Oil Gas UK the sole clinician as
:20:46. > :20:52.to why Scotland were doing relatively badly. The reasons for
:20:53. > :20:55.what we have seen, one of them coming from the Office for National
:20:56. > :20:59.Statistics which gathers these figures, there may have been a
:21:00. > :21:05.statistical quirk earlier this year that made them look relatively bad,
:21:06. > :21:09.the trend they reckon is fairly flat. There is no central pattern
:21:10. > :21:14.from breaking down and drilling down into these figures. Construction UK
:21:15. > :21:22.wide looks pretty strong and is getting better from an employment
:21:23. > :21:26.point of view. One explanation may be that this is not just a question
:21:27. > :21:30.of unemployed people finding jobs. If you look at the number of people
:21:31. > :21:38.who are considered to be economic league in active, -- economic league
:21:39. > :21:43.in active. If you are looking after children or elderly parents or
:21:44. > :21:50.whatever. Also students can't is in active -- count as inactive. The
:21:51. > :22:02.number of them has risen to roughly the same level as unemployment.
:22:03. > :22:08.The point being, because unemployed figures are surveys, if I count
:22:09. > :22:18.myself as being economic league inactive, nothing much has changed?
:22:19. > :22:26.People are making decisions for lots of perfectly and good reasons. But
:22:27. > :22:30.they are counting themselves out of the workforce, and that can have an
:22:31. > :22:34.effect on the economy, students also, that has an effect on the
:22:35. > :22:40.economy as well. But it is unclear what is happening with the jobs
:22:41. > :22:43.market at the moment. A lot of other indicators that we're getting,
:22:44. > :22:47.surveys, are completely contradictory. We have had two about
:22:48. > :22:51.Scotland already this week which are pointing in completely different
:22:52. > :22:53.directions as to the level of confidence that recruiters have.
:22:54. > :22:57.Thank you, Douglas. Let's pick up on today's top stories
:22:58. > :23:01.with a quartet of MSPs at Holyrood. I'm joined by James Dornan
:23:02. > :23:03.from the SNP, the Conservative Liz Smith, Rhoda Grant
:23:04. > :23:22.from Labour and John Finnie First of all, Brexit, James Dornan.
:23:23. > :23:27.I'm a bit unclear listening to make Russell exactly what it is you're
:23:28. > :23:34.trying to achieve here. We are trying to achieve two things,
:23:35. > :23:38.to ensure that the UK Government recognises the devolved competencies
:23:39. > :23:42.of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. But the more important
:23:43. > :23:46.thing is we want to make sure that we continue to be part of the common
:23:47. > :23:52.market. But the various attempts by Nicola
:23:53. > :23:56.Sturgeon and others to convince European leaders that in some ways
:23:57. > :24:04.Scotland could have a different deal from the rest of the UK on Brexit
:24:05. > :24:07.have achieved what, precisely? They have made sure that people
:24:08. > :24:12.remember that Scotland is here as a nation on its own, it is not just
:24:13. > :24:15.part of the UK. You haven't achieved any
:24:16. > :24:18.commitments. At this stage we are still part of
:24:19. > :24:22.the UK, we are still fighting to make sure the rest of the UK
:24:23. > :24:27.recognises that there is a particular need for Scotland's voice
:24:28. > :24:32.to be heard. When you are not suggesting what Nicola Sturgeon
:24:33. > :24:38.should have said is, Scotland voted to stay in, never mind. She is
:24:39. > :24:43.fighting for the people of Scotland. I am asking whether there have been
:24:44. > :24:47.any commitments made by anyone in Europe, either that Scotland can
:24:48. > :24:51.stay in the UK and have a different deal with Europe than the rest of
:24:52. > :24:54.the UK, or that an independent Scotland would be welcomed with open
:24:55. > :24:59.arms into the single market? There has been quite a lot of noise to
:25:00. > :25:05.suggest that Scotland would be welcome into the European market.
:25:06. > :25:08.The issue now is that everything is being looked at, every option is
:25:09. > :25:12.being investigated by Scotland. We are trying to find, no matter the
:25:13. > :25:16.circumstances, the best deal for Scotland. That is the job of the
:25:17. > :25:20.Scottish Government and that is what we are doing to the best of our
:25:21. > :25:26.abilities. Louis Smith, there you are. What do
:25:27. > :25:30.you make of this? Has the Scottish Government achieved anything
:25:31. > :25:34.concrete so far? The most important thing is we do get a good deal for
:25:35. > :25:37.Scotland but within the United Kingdom. The prime Minster has been
:25:38. > :25:41.crystal clear that the Scottish Government will be fully consulted
:25:42. > :25:45.on the negotiations that have to take place, and that is quite right.
:25:46. > :25:49.This is a decision for the UK, and we have to be absolutely clear that
:25:50. > :25:53.all of the devolved sections of the UK are involved in that process.
:25:54. > :25:58.But he would not approve of the Scottish Government or the Welsh or
:25:59. > :26:04.Northern Ireland government having some sort of veto, even in the sense
:26:05. > :26:08.that Theresa May cannot agree on something unless she gets the
:26:09. > :26:12.approval of the other governments? This decision was taken by the whole
:26:13. > :26:15.of the UK, we have to respect that decision. Clearly there were
:26:16. > :26:19.differences within that decision, and we have to listen to the people
:26:20. > :26:25.on both sides so that we do get the best deal for Scotland, and also
:26:26. > :26:33.Scotland within the United Kingdom. Rhoda Grant, what does Labour make
:26:34. > :26:38.of all this? We respect how the Scottish people voted in both
:26:39. > :26:42.referendums, they want to be part of the UK and also want to be part of
:26:43. > :26:50.Europe. We would hope that every storm is uncovered to see -- should
:26:51. > :26:55.Nicola Sturgeon be able to veto anything Theresa May once?
:26:56. > :27:00.I would like to share with us what she has done. It is very difficult
:27:01. > :27:04.to support her if she will not tell us what she is doing. It seems to me
:27:05. > :27:08.that she is talking up an independence referendum but not
:27:09. > :27:12.clearly showing what she is trying to do to get what the Scottish
:27:13. > :27:17.people want within a UK settlement, which is what they voted for just
:27:18. > :27:22.over a year ago. We need to make sure the Scottish people get both
:27:23. > :27:25.things as far as we can possibly do that within the settlement we have.
:27:26. > :27:29.We want her to share that information with us so we can
:27:30. > :27:35.continue to support her doing that. John Finnie, is there anything else
:27:36. > :27:40.the Scottish Government can do? They do not have a strong hand in this,
:27:41. > :27:44.do they? I think the strong hand the Scottish Government have is that
:27:45. > :27:52.they will be positive about the future of Scotland in Europe. There
:27:53. > :28:00.is a bit of a phoney war ongoing. We do need to secure the best possible
:28:01. > :28:02.deal for Scotland. We hope that continues to be our maximum
:28:03. > :28:06.involvement in Europe. That remains to be seen, never mind all of the
:28:07. > :28:14.questions asked of the previous referendum. There has been nothing
:28:15. > :28:17.from the UK Government. Early days, and it is important people engage in
:28:18. > :28:23.a positive way. That is what seeing from the First Minister.
:28:24. > :28:28.There has been no plan A. Theresa May and the rest of the government
:28:29. > :28:34.work at by surprise when the result went the way it did, they had no
:28:35. > :28:41.plans to move forward on it. Theresa May was a reluctant remainder. This
:28:42. > :28:43.government should have had some plans for what would have happened
:28:44. > :28:48.no matter what the result was. There has been nothing, I spoke earlier on
:28:49. > :28:55.about devolved competencies. What happens if the impact of the Brexit
:28:56. > :29:03.decision is going to impact on devolved competencies? The
:29:04. > :29:10.Conservatives and Labour supporters. But that is not what trees may have
:29:11. > :29:14.said. She has been adamant that all the departments will be involved in
:29:15. > :29:20.the negotiations. What that would suggest is there is
:29:21. > :29:25.some manner of veto available to the other side. If they are going to be
:29:26. > :29:31.involved in negotiations they have to be allowed to say no.
:29:32. > :29:37.There are at least two life legal proceedings going on, is that is the
:29:38. > :29:49.case the question of a legislative consent motion comes under way.
:29:50. > :29:53.We're running out of time, I want to get the opinion of all of you on
:29:54. > :29:58.something else, which is this Named Persons statement John Swinney is
:29:59. > :30:04.greatly making. Liz Smith, this is a big issue. Where you satisfied with
:30:05. > :30:09.what John Swinney had to say? Not really, because there is a
:30:10. > :30:12.process that, over many months now, this policy has lost the trust of
:30:13. > :30:22.the people in Scotland. There are many concerns that the case laws are
:30:23. > :30:26.so significant that it is very difficult for them to deliver that
:30:27. > :30:29.policy in the way it is intended. And with the Supreme Court ruling,
:30:30. > :30:36.one Section of that policy, the data-sharing aspects, has been ruled
:30:37. > :30:40.unlawful, as have the situations... Can I just ask you this, do you
:30:41. > :30:43.think it would be possible to implement the Named Persons
:30:44. > :30:50.legislation in anything like its original form if those data-sharing
:30:51. > :30:58.element are taken away? It cannot be in its original form.
:30:59. > :31:02.As a substantial policy? No, because the Supreme Court has
:31:03. > :31:06.made the ruling that that Section of the young people's act is unlawful,
:31:07. > :31:08.so it cannot go ahead in the way it was originally intended.
:31:09. > :31:20.How is it going to differ? The data sharing part of it will be
:31:21. > :31:25.made legal. They will change it around. It wasn't so much what they
:31:26. > :31:30.were doing, it was the fact they had not done it properly. They change
:31:31. > :31:34.the law to make the regulations and it will go on in a similar fashion
:31:35. > :31:38.as it was before. I had to laugh when Liz said that she did not think
:31:39. > :31:43.that John and said the questions and the lack of trust. There is a lack
:31:44. > :31:48.of trust because there has been a concerted campaign to muddy the name
:31:49. > :31:52.of the Named Persons. Named Persons is clearly a good policy and it is
:31:53. > :31:58.going to protect children. I think we should get behind it. Briefly,
:31:59. > :32:02.Labour and some of the leading figures are against this policy but
:32:03. > :32:08.you seem to be in favour of it. We are in favour of anything that
:32:09. > :32:13.protects children. A policy designed to protect children, this Government
:32:14. > :32:17.has made such a hash of it. You think it's a great policy, they just
:32:18. > :32:22.have not implemented it well? The way they have drawn this legislation
:32:23. > :32:27.and it is interesting to see it has fallen foul and they are going to
:32:28. > :32:31.change it. It seems a strange way of listening to what people are saying.
:32:32. > :32:35.There are real concerns and they have to address those concerns to
:32:36. > :32:40.build confidence. If this policy does not have the confidence of the
:32:41. > :32:46.public, of course it will not work. Just to be clear, as it stands now,
:32:47. > :32:52.Labour supports it has no confidence in it? Which? We expect... As it
:32:53. > :32:59.stands now? It needs to change to address the concerns people have.
:33:00. > :33:03.All right, there has to be a policy via that protects children who are
:33:04. > :33:09.not flagged up to the initial channels. John Finney, briefly. Good
:33:10. > :33:12.as from the same part of the world as me and the Highlands have
:33:13. > :33:20.implemented this policy for a number of years. It was not well hampered
:33:21. > :33:21.handled. We support the Named Persons. Thank you very much indeed
:33:22. > :33:22.for that. And now to this week's
:33:23. > :33:24.Prime Ministers Questions, where exchanges were dominated
:33:25. > :33:27.by the issue of grammar schools. The Labour Leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:33:28. > :33:29.pressed Theresa May, on why her government
:33:30. > :33:31.wanted to expand a system, which his evidence suggested,
:33:32. > :33:33.let children down But she disagreed, saying
:33:34. > :33:48.the attainment gap in grammar Mr Speaker, I asked the Prime
:33:49. > :33:53.Minister she could name any experts that could help her in this policy
:33:54. > :34:00.and she was not able to. Can I caught one expert at her? John is a
:34:01. > :34:06.teacher. -- quote. He wrote to me and said the education and teachers
:34:07. > :34:10.have made strides forward to improve the quality of the curriculum. Why
:34:11. > :34:15.not find all schools properly and let us do the job? The evidence of
:34:16. > :34:21.the effects of selection is bliss, in Kent, which has a grammar school
:34:22. > :34:29.system, 27% of pupils on free school meals get five good GCSEs, compared
:34:30. > :34:32.with 45% in London. We are all for spreading good practice, but why
:34:33. > :34:37.does the Prime Minister went to expand the system that can only let
:34:38. > :34:40.children down? Can I say to the right Honourable gentleman that he
:34:41. > :34:56.needs to stop casting his mind back to the 1950s. What we will be doing
:34:57. > :35:00.is ensuring that we are able to provide good school places for the
:35:01. > :35:06.one and a quarter million children who are in schools that are failing,
:35:07. > :35:11.and adequate or need improvement. When we look at the impact of
:35:12. > :35:15.grammar schools and you look at attainment for disadvantaged and
:35:16. > :35:19.non-disadvantaged children, the attainment gap in grammar schools is
:35:20. > :35:23.virtually zero, which it is not in other schools. It is opportunity for
:35:24. > :35:28.young people to go were their talents will take them. I know the
:35:29. > :35:41.right honourable gentleman believes in equality of outcome. I believe in
:35:42. > :35:47.equality of opportunity. He believes in levelling down, we believe in
:35:48. > :35:52.levelling up. Last week the Prime Minister was unwilling or unable to
:35:53. > :35:56.give assurances about Remain in the single European market. Today, she
:35:57. > :36:04.has been unwilling or unable to give assurances to the financial sector.
:36:05. > :36:10.Meanwhile, millions of people from across the United Kingdom depend on
:36:11. > :36:14.freedom of movement across the United to admit European union for
:36:15. > :36:19.pleasure and work. The face the prospect of having to apply and pay
:36:20. > :36:26.for abusers. As the Prime Minister in favour of protecting free Visa
:36:27. > :36:32.travel? There was a clear message from the British people at the time
:36:33. > :36:36.of the referendum vote that they wanted to see an end of free
:36:37. > :36:40.movement as it operated, they wanted to see control of the movement of
:36:41. > :36:44.people from the European Union into the UK and that is what we will
:36:45. > :36:50.deliver. Nine-year-old Mohammed is one of child refugees alone in
:36:51. > :36:56.Syria. His family fled the country, believing he was dead and now live
:36:57. > :37:01.in Midlothian. He has been identified as alive but has now been
:37:02. > :37:06.kidnapped, badly beaten and left for dead before being found it again. He
:37:07. > :37:10.now lives in fear of daily attacks or sexual violence and assault.
:37:11. > :37:15.Would-be Prime Minister agreed to meet with me to the Government can
:37:16. > :37:20.take to reunite Mohammed with his devastated family and give him the
:37:21. > :37:26.support over, his ordeal. Obviously, I am not aware of the details of the
:37:27. > :37:32.individual case. The Home Secretary has heard him and if he would like
:37:33. > :37:37.to write to him with the details. There are rules that allow family
:37:38. > :37:42.reunion to take place. We are, as a country, has committed to take a
:37:43. > :37:44.number of children who are vulnerable and potentially bindable
:37:45. > :37:51.from sexual violence from the region around Syria, to ensure we can
:37:52. > :37:57.resettle them around the UK. My home is my friend the Home Secretary will
:37:58. > :37:57.look at the case. -- right honourable friend.
:37:58. > :38:03.Well, what kind of reaction did that get from Westminster's politicians?
:38:04. > :38:05.Our correspondent David Porter is on College Green
:38:06. > :38:18.I don't want you doing your rain dance. It is a lovely day here at
:38:19. > :38:21.Wes Mr -- Westminster. Prime Minister question Time, as we have
:38:22. > :38:31.just heard there. Let's get some reaction to it. Iain Murray for
:38:32. > :38:35.Labour. Jeremy Purvis for the Liberal Democrat. Ian Stewart, I
:38:36. > :38:40.will begin with you first. We keep being told that Brexit means Brexit.
:38:41. > :38:45.Is it now not time that your Government put some flesh on the
:38:46. > :38:48.bone on that? That work is ongoing at the moment and in consultation
:38:49. > :38:52.with the devolved governments. Theresa May has been quite clear we
:38:53. > :38:57.are not going to provide a running commentary of this. The same way
:38:58. > :39:00.that the Scottish Government negotiated the fiscal framework last
:39:01. > :39:05.year, these are complex negotiations. We will not provide a
:39:06. > :39:09.running commentary. We will get a sensible trade agreement with
:39:10. > :39:12.Europe. Also, this is an important point, we start scoping out new
:39:13. > :39:18.opportunities for this country. We are already looking at scoping trade
:39:19. > :39:23.arrangements with Australia, Mexico and many other countries. We have to
:39:24. > :39:26.look forward. You are now working in the new international treaty
:39:27. > :39:30.parliament. I am sure were never used it to businessmen, they say,
:39:31. > :39:38.give us a clue about your thinking. We need this type of information.
:39:39. > :39:43.The future of our trading agreement with the European union is, we need
:39:44. > :39:49.to be doing... We have to start exporting more. This country exports
:39:50. > :39:55.27% of its GDP. The European average is 48. That is not good enough. That
:39:56. > :40:01.is what we have to get back on the agenda and prove our export
:40:02. > :40:08.performance. -- improve. Was Liam Fox right to describe UK businessmen
:40:09. > :40:12.as fat and lazy and more interested in golf? I think if you read the
:40:13. > :40:18.full context on his remarks, he was making that very important point. We
:40:19. > :40:24.have not been exporting enough as a country. Only 11% of UK countries
:40:25. > :40:27.actually export. Our prosperity as a country is based on as trading in
:40:28. > :40:32.the past and we have to get back to that tradition. Iain Murray, Dubai
:40:33. > :40:38.that argument that, quite reasonably, the Government cannot
:40:39. > :40:42.give us too much information? -- do you buy? The reason they cannot give
:40:43. > :40:48.us a running commentary is that they have nothing to comment on. Nobody
:40:49. > :40:51.knows what Brexit means. Ian Stewart says quite reasonably that we need
:40:52. > :40:55.to be a better trading and exporting nation, at the same time, this
:40:56. > :41:01.Government has cut is from our biggest trading partner. There are
:41:02. > :41:04.big issues here. The Government cannot take or keep the UK in the
:41:05. > :41:08.single market without doing something about immigration. There
:41:09. > :41:12.is a big problem there. How are they going to get round this? That is the
:41:13. > :41:17.big question everyone will be and skiing. I agree we need to be more
:41:18. > :41:20.positive. If we are coming out of the European Union, let's look at
:41:21. > :41:25.the opportunities and make the best of a bad situation. The Government
:41:26. > :41:34.have no idea what they are doing and cannot square the difficult circles
:41:35. > :41:37.of single market, access to the EU, immigration and how much they pay
:41:38. > :41:40.that. A lot of people would say, if your party leader had done more and
:41:41. > :41:44.got the Labour vote out, we would not be where we are today. The
:41:45. > :41:48.Labour vote did come out but some parts of the country voted to Leave
:41:49. > :41:52.the European Union because they have concerns about immigration and how
:41:53. > :41:55.their communities are being run by this Conservative Government. We
:41:56. > :42:00.tried hard to put a positive slant on why we should stay in the
:42:01. > :42:05.European Union. All of the positive stuff was dismissed as
:42:06. > :42:09.scaremongering. That is an echo of 2014 independence referendum. We
:42:10. > :42:17.need the best possible deal for the UK. Make sure Scotland's position is
:42:18. > :42:21.protected. Making sure, crucially, Scotland stays within the United
:42:22. > :42:26.Kingdom. That is what people voted for. Mike Russell from your party in
:42:27. > :42:30.Scotland and representing the Scottish Government is down holding
:42:31. > :42:35.talks tomorrow with David Davis. What are the nature of the
:42:36. > :42:40.discussions you want to see? I went to see him and good luck to Mike. To
:42:41. > :42:45.get more information from the UK Government. We have just heard from
:42:46. > :42:49.Ian and the Conservative Party that Liam Fox wants to talk about trade
:42:50. > :42:53.deals. We do not even have the basics of whether we will be part of
:42:54. > :42:58.the single market. That is the basic. We're not talking about the
:42:59. > :43:03.minutiae of this. That is a big information. I am hoping Mike
:43:04. > :43:08.Russell will be more successful than we have been in parliament trying to
:43:09. > :43:11.pry out these bigger details. Think about the impact on universities,
:43:12. > :43:16.environment, a whole range of areas we have not heard anything about. We
:43:17. > :43:22.have heard a lot of rhetoric from your Government and Edinburgh. Is it
:43:23. > :43:28.reasonable to be able to dot the eyes and cross the Tees? This is not
:43:29. > :43:35.about doing that. Thiss these are big substantial issues. EU nationals
:43:36. > :43:39.and trying to give business more confidence. A lot more leadership
:43:40. > :43:41.from the Scottish Government to did not have powers over our
:43:42. > :43:48.relationship than the Government to actually has those powers. Your
:43:49. > :43:53.party is on record as being the most pro-European party. We are not with
:43:54. > :43:57.your party wants to be now. From your point of view, the Liberal
:43:58. > :44:02.Democrat point of view, does the UK means the best of what you would
:44:03. > :44:06.make is a bad job? We do not know where we are going. Three months
:44:07. > :44:10.after the referendum, nothing from the Government at all. Even setting
:44:11. > :44:15.terms of where we would like to be. I think the people of the country,
:44:16. > :44:19.Scotland in particular, are blind to actually where we're going to go.
:44:20. > :44:24.That is why many have argued that what ever comes out of the
:44:25. > :44:28.negotiations, when and if article 50 is activated, that should be put to
:44:29. > :44:33.the people for a referendum. I think that is justified. We are getting a
:44:34. > :44:37.running commentary it does that David Davies and Liam Fox have been
:44:38. > :44:40.designed from Downing Street. The running commentary is the personal
:44:41. > :44:49.views of the Ministers that we should be relying upon. Even in my
:44:50. > :44:52.place, we have had a letter from a minister asking our opinions about
:44:53. > :44:57.where we should be going per Brexit. Not a briefing from the Minister.
:44:58. > :45:03.One of the big differences is that we had, from the Treasury, the top
:45:04. > :45:07.areas of where they are going to be a discussion and there was
:45:08. > :45:10.parliamentary scrutiny about that. Nothing is happening from the
:45:11. > :45:14.Government about that. If we think we're going to be a vacuum for the
:45:15. > :45:16.next couple of years, I think the parliament and the people will
:45:17. > :45:25.become and rightly so. Finally, you believe before any deal
:45:26. > :45:31.on Brexit is ratified that there needs to be a second referendum or a
:45:32. > :45:33.general election? If there is a general election
:45:34. > :45:39.first, that will give us a strong signal. But the Brexit eel will have
:45:40. > :45:44.to be ratified by the British people -- deal. If there is any
:45:45. > :45:49.backtracking on NHS funding access to the single market, all the things
:45:50. > :45:52.that were promised, is not going to be guaranteed by the deal, then the
:45:53. > :45:58.people of this country should have the opportunity of ratifying this
:45:59. > :46:03.deal. Everybody, thank you very much for
:46:04. > :46:10.joining me. Some information, the unsolicited and from the --
:46:11. > :46:16.intervention we had there, we at 2.8 that Tottenham are playing Monaco
:46:17. > :46:21.tonight. And other football teams are
:46:22. > :46:26.available. Thanks, David. Let's go back briefly to the Named Persons
:46:27. > :46:32.issue. You think this is a difficult one for the Scottish Government.
:46:33. > :46:37.I do. It is unusual for the Scottish Government, the SNP, to be on the
:46:38. > :46:44.wrong side of public opinion. They are on the wrong side of SNP opinion
:46:45. > :46:49.on Named Persons. Their own supporters seem to be against it.
:46:50. > :46:53.They are doing a lot of blaming of pressure groups and the media and so
:46:54. > :46:59.on, that is part of politics. Liz Smith says it cannot be the same
:47:00. > :47:04.legislation because some of it has been knocked down. James Dornan and
:47:05. > :47:09.John Swinney appeared to be seen, it will be much the same apart from a
:47:10. > :47:13.few technical things. Who's right? They might be saying the same thing.
:47:14. > :47:19.Liz Smith was saying the legislation as a whole cannot go forward because
:47:20. > :47:23.one part of it has been removed by the Supreme Court. James Dornan was
:47:24. > :47:28.saying we will fix that bit and the rest will follow. It will get the
:47:29. > :47:32.point where the legislation goes forward. The bigger issue is that it
:47:33. > :47:38.shows no sign of being any more popular. There are big question
:47:39. > :47:41.marks as to the effectiveness of it. Could you work out what Labour's
:47:42. > :47:48.policy is supposed to be? I struggled with that. The problem
:47:49. > :47:54.with Labour is that ideologically it agrees with the SNP on lots of
:47:55. > :47:59.things. As the SNP agreed with Labour on lots of things when Labour
:48:00. > :48:03.were in power. That has been the problem with them.
:48:04. > :48:06.You detect a subtle shift in the Scottish Government's position on
:48:07. > :48:14.Europe. Yes, it's position has changed
:48:15. > :48:18.significantly. After the referendum the position was we want to be in
:48:19. > :48:24.Europe. It has now moved to single market access. The pro-independence
:48:25. > :48:29.polling has not shifted by anything like what they expected it to since
:48:30. > :48:34.the Brexit vote. We're pretty much 50-50 on independence, give or take.
:48:35. > :48:37.The expected at this point in the game they would be seeing numbers
:48:38. > :48:45.like 62% in favour because of breakfast -- exit. -- 60%.
:48:46. > :48:48.Thank you very much for being with us this afternoon, Andy.
:48:49. > :48:49.Join us for First Minister's Questions tomorrow
:48:50. > :48:55.We'll be back at the same time next Wednesday.