:00:15. > :00:20.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:20. > :00:24.programme: The new anti-sectarian bill will be
:00:24. > :00:28.passed at Holyrood this afternoon in the face of fierce opposition.
:00:28. > :00:31.Unemployment in Scotland is now higher than the UK total. The First
:00:31. > :00:37.Minister wants a UK jobs summit. Scottish Labour say that's a red
:00:37. > :00:42.herring. And here at Westminster, as well as
:00:42. > :00:46.the economy, it's Europe that won't go away.
:00:46. > :00:51.Unemployment in Scotland has risen and the rate is now higher than in
:00:51. > :00:59.the rest of the UK. The latest figures show more than 220,000
:00:59. > :01:02.Scots are now unemployed. Our Business Editor Douglas Fraser
:01:02. > :01:06.joins me now. I'm also joined by the political editor of The
:01:06. > :01:10.Scotsman and Scotland on Sunday, Eddie Barnes. Douglas, it can you
:01:10. > :01:13.tell me more about the state of things at the moment? We expected
:01:14. > :01:16.unemployment to rise. We have government cutbacks and the private
:01:16. > :01:20.sector employer that is very cautious because of the state of
:01:20. > :01:24.the eurozone, they are holding off on hiring people, so they are not
:01:24. > :01:28.taking up the slack in the way the Government hoped they would. In
:01:29. > :01:33.Scotland, 220,000 more people between August and October were
:01:33. > :01:38.seeking work during those three months. Only one part of all the
:01:38. > :01:42.Nations and Regions of England had as sharp an increase, that was
:01:42. > :01:49.eastern England. He says got them dislike it worse off than the rest
:01:49. > :01:54.of the UK average, that is true -- Scotland is worse-off. It is also
:01:54. > :02:04.strikingly close to the UK average. We are talking about a 0.5% of the
:02:04. > :02:08.workforce seeking work during those three months -- 8.5%. We are pretty
:02:08. > :02:17.close to the UK average. I think that is the bid worth stressing.
:02:17. > :02:21.The other way of looking at it, is those on unemployment benefit. A
:02:22. > :02:28.lot of people are looking for jobs but don't see it that allowance. If
:02:28. > :02:34.you look at that, it fell last month by 500 to 143,000. Did all
:02:34. > :02:39.the figures that we have got today, it is the only one that is positive
:02:39. > :02:43.-- in all. Where are we with youth unemployment? There was a lot of
:02:43. > :02:47.concern last month. It was a breakthrough for the whole of the
:02:47. > :02:50.UK, going through one million and it has increased. We have more
:02:50. > :02:55.analysis of the data from the Office of National Statistics which
:02:55. > :03:01.shows that Scotland's youth unemployment is substantially worst,
:03:01. > :03:05.23%, that is nearly one in four young people looking for work
:03:06. > :03:10.during this period. The problems are similar north and south of the
:03:10. > :03:17.border but it is of the same scale, nevertheless it is a bigger worry
:03:17. > :03:21.for Scotland, particularly because we have got these people not in
:03:21. > :03:25.education or employment or training. It is a bigger tale in Scotland in
:03:25. > :03:30.terms of it is harder to get in to imply that if they don't have these
:03:30. > :03:33.skills. Eddie, how does this play politically? Before, when the
:03:33. > :03:38.figures were better than the rest of the UK, the Scottish government
:03:38. > :03:42.could take credit. What is happening now? You are right, the
:03:42. > :03:45.link between the lower unemployment rates and as the Scottish
:03:45. > :03:51.government solid, their work on infrastructure and boosting
:03:51. > :03:59.construction, they made that link pretty clear -- as the Scottish
:03:59. > :04:05.Baba Ahmed saw it. Obviously, that has taken a hit today. He hasn't
:04:05. > :04:08.been able to come out and say, look, the plans are still working. The
:04:08. > :04:13.opposition parties are taking full advantage and pointing out that
:04:13. > :04:18.suddenly, the statistics are going wrong that he has to take the blame
:04:18. > :04:23.for that. I think credit and blame are interesting issues. If you look
:04:23. > :04:27.at some of the polling done around election time, what tends to happen,
:04:27. > :04:32.went people's living standards drop, they blamed the UK Government
:04:32. > :04:36.rather than the Scottish government. It will be interesting to see if
:04:36. > :04:42.that Pan soured when the trend continues. Douglas, the retail
:04:42. > :04:45.figures came out today and they are pretty gloomy as well. The Scottish
:04:45. > :04:50.retail consortium, they are saying the monthly figures for November
:04:50. > :04:55.are the worst for they have seen in 12 years, 1.3% down. If you take
:04:55. > :04:58.food out, they are 3% down. From the retailer's point of view, we
:04:59. > :05:03.are being told to be more careful about borrowing and spending so it
:05:03. > :05:07.makes sense for some people to pull back, but the Christmas spend is
:05:07. > :05:10.crucial for retailers and they have the advantage of one extra Saturday
:05:10. > :05:14.compared to last year, so they hope Christmas Eve could make the
:05:14. > :05:19.difference to get the figures up. Douglas and Eddie, thank you very
:05:19. > :05:21.much. The big story at Holyrood this
:05:21. > :05:25.afternoon is the stage-three debate on the controversial Offensive
:05:25. > :05:31.Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Bill.
:05:31. > :05:33.Our political editor Brian Taylor is there. It sounded as though the
:05:33. > :05:38.First Minister was pretty determined to go ahead with
:05:38. > :05:42.legislation as is. But very determined would be the answer.
:05:42. > :05:46.There was a surge in the early stages for consensus and it looked
:05:46. > :05:50.as though it might be possible in the aftermath of troubles that was
:05:50. > :05:55.seen in a Scottish football, particularly the Old Firm last
:05:55. > :05:58.season, but the consensus has evaporated. The opposition parties
:05:58. > :06:02.see the shape that has finally emerged as being a necessary and
:06:02. > :06:05.possibly damaging, particularly with regard to football.
:06:06. > :06:13.Threatening communications first novel, the idea that material that
:06:13. > :06:19.could cause beer or alarm through the post or online -- Fiat. And in
:06:19. > :06:24.regard to football, offensive behaviour, sectarian chanting, etc.
:06:24. > :06:28.That is what is particularly drawing contention. Opposition MSPs
:06:28. > :06:34.are saying you can handle it by legislation and it may make things
:06:34. > :06:38.worse if football fans feel victimised by this legislation.
:06:38. > :06:41.Alex Salmond is saying that is not the case at there is a gap in the
:06:41. > :06:49.law which requires bloody glad he is very vehement indeed that the
:06:49. > :06:56.sort of behaviour is not be tolerated -- requires a plugging.
:06:56. > :06:59.We couldn't get any MSPs to get on the programme, there will be 100%
:06:59. > :07:05.attendance and the Chamber. Does the party feel slightly under siege
:07:05. > :07:09.at the moment? There is a running vote taking place, because it is
:07:09. > :07:14.staged three, with various amendments, so there will be a
:07:14. > :07:18.running vote under way. They vote on the amendments at various points.
:07:18. > :07:22.You are never quite sure where one of those amendments is going to
:07:22. > :07:28.come, so sensible whips in all of the parties want all of their MSPs
:07:28. > :07:33.mustard around their aprons, so they can deploy them if necessary.
:07:33. > :07:37.Do you think the SNP government are looking at the criticism and ever
:07:37. > :07:43.regret going full steam ahead with these proposals? Dear get the
:07:43. > :07:48.impression they were bounced into this? -- do you. Self bounced if
:07:48. > :07:51.you like, they thought there was a huge problem. Alex Salmond points
:07:51. > :07:55.regularly to the advice given by the lord advocate and the police
:07:55. > :07:58.saying there is a gap in the law with regard to behaviour at
:07:58. > :08:03.football grounds that courts don't always deal with in a uniform way,
:08:03. > :08:08.for example a breach of the peace prosecution. As a consequence, Alex
:08:08. > :08:11.Salmond believes it can be filled. Secondly, it is stiffer penalties
:08:11. > :08:16.regarding threatening communications, it is five years in
:08:16. > :08:21.jail for that one, a much tougher penalty. Thirdly, that there is
:08:21. > :08:25.this more general point of the nature of contemporary Scotland,
:08:25. > :08:30.that Parliament should send a message with regard to that.
:08:30. > :08:34.Opposition MSPs are saying you can send the message, we all say we are
:08:34. > :08:38.against and -- sectarianism, but this is not the right Bill to do it
:08:38. > :08:43.and could be harmful. It will be tested in practice. Scottish
:08:43. > :08:47.ministers are open to the idea of reviewing the way this works at the
:08:47. > :08:50.two football seasons have gone by. Ministers are also saying this is
:08:50. > :08:55.not the end of the matter but the beginning and there will be further
:08:55. > :08:59.initiatives in the field up tackling sectarianism through
:08:59. > :09:06.education and I expect one of those as early as next week. Brian Taylor,
:09:06. > :09:10.thank you very much. With the studio is Eddie Barnes. We were
:09:10. > :09:14.just talking about the SNP government being bounced or self-
:09:14. > :09:19.bounced into this legislation. Do you think they ever regret going
:09:19. > :09:22.full steam ahead? I think that question can only be answered at
:09:22. > :09:26.once the powers come into law and we see them being implemented.
:09:26. > :09:30.Clearly, this isn't what they wanted today in Parliament, they
:09:30. > :09:36.wanted to get a consensus from opposition parties and they haven't
:09:36. > :09:40.got that. In fact, they have got a united opposition. The test of that
:09:40. > :09:45.will be when it comes to being implemented, when we actually see
:09:45. > :09:49.what happens at Dyfed makes any differences and if the fans feel
:09:49. > :09:54.victimised -- and if. And what the reaction will be inside football
:09:54. > :09:58.grounds to the new legislation. That is the moment it will be
:09:58. > :10:03.tested and that that point, we will see if they regretted. The proof of
:10:03. > :10:08.the pudding will be in the eating. As Brian Taylor was saying, that
:10:08. > :10:11.ministers were considering looking at it two seasons down the line.
:10:11. > :10:15.think that is quite sensible, because nobody knows at the moment
:10:16. > :10:19.exactly what the reaction is going to be. We do know from people who
:10:19. > :10:23.have looked at this that there are existing laws that we have seen
:10:23. > :10:28.people prosecuted successfully for offences in and around football
:10:28. > :10:31.grounds, so with our people can be prosecuted. The question is whether
:10:31. > :10:35.this is going to add something or worse for the Scottish government,
:10:35. > :10:40.if it is actually going to cause more harm as the opposition parties
:10:40. > :10:44.are saying. That a two-year test is probably necessary. When you see
:10:44. > :10:48.football fan speaking, they are quite often unclear as to what the
:10:48. > :10:52.legislation means. Is that a good law if people are not sure what
:10:52. > :10:55.they can and cannot do? That is the problem about thought it was
:10:55. > :10:59.interesting yesterday were the Scottish government sent out a
:10:59. > :11:04.press release which specified what this wasn't. It said this will not
:11:04. > :11:09.stop you using harsh language when it comes to another religion or
:11:09. > :11:14.another belief system. They are actually having to specified that
:11:14. > :11:20.this isn't a complete and utter stop on your right to free speech.
:11:20. > :11:25.That in a sense is admitting to the problems of the interpretation of
:11:25. > :11:31.it. It boils down to implementation. If the fans and people around
:11:31. > :11:37.football can see this is being implemented in a sense will stop
:11:37. > :11:40.then the question will become of what was the point? Is the Scottish
:11:40. > :11:45.government going to have the back this up with a wider and he
:11:45. > :11:48.sectarian initiatives, rather than just having this? -- and he
:11:48. > :11:55.sectarian. That is the one thing in Parliament there is concerns about,
:11:55. > :12:02.these proposals, the bigger issue remains and that is about attitudes
:12:03. > :12:05.and did not so much about law and penalties and five-year prison
:12:05. > :12:11.sentences and how do you change Scottish society? That is a bigger
:12:11. > :12:14.task. Some of those points are included in the Labour Action Plan,
:12:14. > :12:20.the anti- sectarian initiative, which has about six months after
:12:20. > :12:24.these proposals. Is that a bit cynical? They are politicians, they
:12:25. > :12:28.need to show there is something there that explains their
:12:28. > :12:34.opposition to these laws. Perhaps they may have learned a lesson from
:12:34. > :12:40.the alcohol Bell, where they were seen to be far too oppositionist --
:12:40. > :12:42.something and say this is what we would back instead. Perhaps they
:12:42. > :12:47.are learning. Eddie, thank you very much.
:12:47. > :12:54.Let's go live to the chain that Holyrood and the commentator there
:12:54. > :12:58.is Sarah Patton son. Bash chamber. We are in the amendment stage of
:12:58. > :13:04.these final debates, there are 10 amendments this afternoon. We
:13:04. > :13:08.should get them finished within the hour. The Conservatives want a more
:13:08. > :13:11.defined list of what constitutes offensive, but the SNP government
:13:11. > :13:17.believe that is too prescriptive and she would be constantly
:13:17. > :13:23.changing the law to include more offensive chants and S MPs have
:13:23. > :13:28.already voted on that first and ended and voted that down -- MSPs.
:13:28. > :13:33.Also, another suggested amendment was for the public to be consulted
:13:33. > :13:40.if the new ball was changed in any way and there are various technical
:13:40. > :13:47.amendments. At the moment, David McLetchie is speaking to his second
:13:47. > :13:55.technical amendment, which is so the legislation does not clash with
:13:55. > :13:59.Behaviour which is expressing hatred, stirring up hatred against
:13:59. > :14:04.members of a religious group or cultural group with perceived
:14:04. > :14:09.religious affiliations etc. All the statutory aggravations are offences
:14:09. > :14:15.aggravated by hatred, dislike, stirring up hatred against people
:14:15. > :14:20.that are members of a particular religious group or affiliated to a
:14:20. > :14:24.social group with perceived such affiliation. How can we have a
:14:24. > :14:29.aggregation of something that is already an offence? It makes
:14:29. > :14:33.absolutely no sense at all. That is exactly of course why the
:14:33. > :14:37.instructions are contained as they are in the Lord Advocate's
:14:37. > :14:41.guidelines. What I seek to do is to bring this on to the face of the
:14:41. > :14:45.bill so it is not just a matter for guidelines. The minister very
:14:45. > :14:51.fairly says, yes, but we still won the guidelines to applied to the
:14:51. > :14:56.generalised offences. -- still want. That is where we fundamentally
:14:56. > :15:00.differ. I think this built should not have generalised offences and
:15:00. > :15:04.should be specifically focused on the behaviour that it was
:15:04. > :15:08.introduced to address, which his behaviour of an anti-sectarian
:15:08. > :15:14.nature. So as before, there is a fundamental division of opinion on
:15:14. > :15:19.this and I will be pressing my amendment to the vote. The question
:15:19. > :15:29.is that amendment number two be agreed to. Are we all agreed? We
:15:29. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:36.will move to a vote. The period for voting is one minute. STUDIO. OK,
:15:36. > :15:40.this is where the MSPs start milling around. They are chatting
:15:40. > :15:43.away. There has been a great deal of disquiet about how the laws will
:15:43. > :15:49.work in practice and the bill has already been amended by the
:15:49. > :15:52.Government at committee stage. They put in an explicit freedom of
:15:52. > :15:58.expression protection. So if you are preacher standing on your
:15:58. > :16:03.soapbox saying that the world is going to end, then you cannot be
:16:03. > :16:09.lifted by the police. They may also include hatred based on somebody's
:16:09. > :16:13.age or gender. And also a formal review of the legislation after two
:16:13. > :16:18.for football seasons. After this amendment number two, Roseanna
:16:18. > :16:24.Cunningham, the minister in charge, as a technical amendment about that
:16:24. > :16:31.future review which actually allows legislation to be amended. David
:16:31. > :16:34.McLetchie there, just waiting. That is his particular amendment.
:16:34. > :16:43.Talking to the First Minister, Alex Salmond, over the chamber. Now the
:16:43. > :16:48.vote. The vote is as follows. Yes, 14. No, 101. There were no
:16:48. > :16:54.abstentions and the amendment is therefore not agreed to. We now
:16:54. > :16:59.move to Group Three. I call amendment No. 3... A STUDIO: OK,
:16:59. > :17:04.this is number three. That is Roseanna Cunningham, the minister,
:17:04. > :17:07.and it allows the legislation to be amended in the future. That was
:17:07. > :17:11.after two football seasons, the review that they promised. The
:17:11. > :17:15.Government says that the main thing is that the police and the courts
:17:16. > :17:21.have asked for additional tools to do their jobs because they believe
:17:21. > :17:24.the existing law falls short. Let's cross back to the Chamber to hear
:17:24. > :17:27.what the minister in charge has to say. The Government has given a
:17:27. > :17:32.clear commitment that we will consult on any substantial changes
:17:32. > :17:40.to be made using these powers. The amendment is intended to make clear
:17:40. > :17:48.that where necessary, for example to assure compliance with the law,
:17:48. > :17:52.which we are obliged to do, section 15 can be in regard to a type of
:17:52. > :17:56.behaviour in section two. Persons must be present in sufficient
:17:56. > :18:04.numbers for public disorder to be likely to be incited as a result of
:18:04. > :18:12.a kind of behaviour. I move amendment three. David McLetchie.
:18:12. > :18:16.Thank you. David McLetchie speaking against the motion. In an
:18:16. > :18:19.extraordinary way, this demonstrates exactly what is wrong
:18:19. > :18:26.with the bill. Essentially what is happening in this amendment, and
:18:26. > :18:30.indeed with the other amendments, which were launched at stage two,
:18:30. > :18:36.which is... I think we will leave the chamber proceedings there. We
:18:37. > :18:41.have another seven amendments to go. Thank you. David McLetchie speaking
:18:41. > :18:45.there. Let's have another quick chat with Eddie Barnes, political
:18:45. > :18:49.editor of Scotland On Sunday and The Scotsman. When will this
:18:49. > :18:53.legislation come into force? Well, it requires Royal Assent, which
:18:53. > :18:59.usually takes four weeks to come through. Normally we would expect
:18:59. > :19:04.it to come in at the end of January. I think this is potentially a very
:19:04. > :19:07.important point, that has got his Government has to handle well,
:19:07. > :19:11.because the last thing they would want would be a huge fanfare to be
:19:11. > :19:15.made about these plans coming in, and to have that reaction the
:19:15. > :19:18.following Saturday, at whichever football ground it happens to be.
:19:18. > :19:22.There is a danger that this whole legislation could face that type of
:19:22. > :19:32.response from a football crowd, which leaves the police in a
:19:32. > :19:33.
:19:33. > :19:37.position where they cannot arrest 20,000 people. It requires careful
:19:37. > :19:41.handling as to how it is brought in. Will it be brought in before the
:19:42. > :19:45.end of this football season, I wonder? We have got no clarity on a
:19:45. > :19:51.Scottish Government on that and it is an interesting point. The media
:19:51. > :19:56.will be watching as well. absolutely. That first week has the
:19:56. > :20:00.potential to be quite tricky for the Government so it requires
:20:00. > :20:04.careful handling. How does the handling of the anti-sectarian
:20:04. > :20:11.problem by the current Scottish Government compare to the previous
:20:11. > :20:18.Jack McConnell administration? think what he tried to do was much
:20:18. > :20:21.more on the educational, social changes. There are high profile
:20:21. > :20:25.photographs of the cardinal, with the Moderator of the church of
:20:25. > :20:32.Scotland, but the trouble with that was it did not seem to be going
:20:32. > :20:37.anywhere. There was a certain loss of patience among some of the
:20:37. > :20:39.people involved in it. And also that sense that somehow faith
:20:39. > :20:43.groups and religious organisations were almost being blamed for
:20:43. > :20:49.sectarianism, rather than being seen as people that could help to
:20:49. > :20:53.solve it. It just ran out of steam. This legislation almost stands out
:20:53. > :21:01.on its own. If you remember, it was a reaction against the scenes that
:21:01. > :21:06.we saw in April and May. They were unprecedented in their ferocity, in
:21:06. > :21:10.terms of the death threats against Neil Lennon and others. You saw it
:21:10. > :21:15.at the Old Firm games. This stands out on its own. The question of how
:21:15. > :21:20.you take on the jack McConnell the agenda, which is still waiting to
:21:20. > :21:25.be picked up, remains to be asked. I think it is quite pertinent.
:21:25. > :21:29.Thank you very much. Let's get some more reaction to this now. We are
:21:29. > :21:33.joined by Graham Pearson from Labour, former director of the
:21:33. > :21:38.Scottish crime and drug enforcement agency, and by the political
:21:38. > :21:44.commentator George Kerevan, who was an SNP candidate at the last
:21:44. > :21:48.Holyrood election. George is in the Edinburgh studio. There have been
:21:48. > :21:53.many questions as to why we need these new laws. The police asked
:21:53. > :21:56.for them. Do you think it is a power grab by the police? Should it
:21:56. > :22:00.be the democratically elected representatives that decide what
:22:01. > :22:07.laws should be made? It is a democratically elected people
:22:07. > :22:10.making the laws. It is happening in technicolour this afternoon. I
:22:10. > :22:13.think there comes a time when you look at what happened at the Old
:22:13. > :22:17.Firm games last year that mainstream Scotland has to say
:22:17. > :22:21.enough is enough. Sometimes you have to pass laws to make it clear
:22:21. > :22:24.to everybody that we cannot go on as we have. For all of my lifetime
:22:24. > :22:29.there has been big victory going on and we have swept it under the
:22:29. > :22:33.carpet and it is time to change that. -- bigotry. It is a shame
:22:33. > :22:37.other parties cannot get behind it. Graham Pearson, your former Police
:22:37. > :22:42.colleagues have asked for these laws. Why are you not supporting
:22:42. > :22:46.them? Essentially I believe there are better ways of resolving the
:22:46. > :22:52.issues that we are dealing with just now. George mentioned the
:22:52. > :22:56.goings-on at the various football matches. In the last four years at
:22:56. > :23:01.Old Firm games, there are fewer than a dozen fans arrested and an
:23:01. > :23:04.absence of violence at these Games. What we need is for the football
:23:04. > :23:10.authorities and the clubs to take responsibility for managing these
:23:10. > :23:19.football events, and by ensuring that the minority who are not
:23:19. > :23:27.wanted at the Games are put out of football altogether, not by putting
:23:27. > :23:32.people in jail. That is the way to resolve it. It is a sledgehammer to
:23:32. > :23:35.crack a nut, as Graham Pearson is pointing out. It is drawing a line
:23:35. > :23:42.in the sand. Of course we need cultural change and Winnie the
:23:42. > :23:46.education. That has been going on. -- we need the education. I have
:23:46. > :23:51.paid tribute to Jack McConnell. He was a brave politician and he
:23:51. > :23:56.deserves credit for starting it. But it cannot just be talking and
:23:56. > :24:02.talking all the time. We need something very definite. I am
:24:02. > :24:07.surprised by the degree to which the opposition have stood on the
:24:07. > :24:12.sidelines in this one. I think that is wrong of them. I think it is
:24:12. > :24:16.very sensible for Roseanna Cunningham to say that we will try
:24:16. > :24:20.it for two years, hold out for consensus and try it for two years
:24:20. > :24:25.and if it does not work, come back. That should be enough to bring the
:24:25. > :24:31.parties around the table. The fact that they are still saying no shows
:24:31. > :24:36.they are a little bit pusillanimous. Why are you on the sidelines? You
:24:36. > :24:40.knew this would be passed with the SNP majority. Why have you not
:24:40. > :24:47.decided to be more constructive and mature about this? We have tried to
:24:47. > :24:51.be more constructive. We have tried to add some advice on how to take
:24:51. > :24:54.things forward. The SNP's understanding of consensus is that
:24:54. > :24:58.they have their own way from the start and they deliver what they
:24:58. > :25:03.initially set out to deliver. We do not even have an SNP spokesperson
:25:03. > :25:07.here to defend the situation. What we have tried to suggest is that we
:25:07. > :25:11.have laws that are currently being enforced and people are being
:25:11. > :25:19.arrested, prosecuted and sent to jail where appropriate. What we
:25:19. > :25:23.need to do, and George was quite right to acknowledge Jack
:25:23. > :25:26.McConnell's contribution, for five years we have done nothing about
:25:26. > :25:31.sectarianism and we should be pressing all the right buttons to
:25:31. > :25:35.make sure that when clubs misbehave, they face the penalties. When fans
:25:35. > :25:39.misbehave, they should face the penalties. But it is not for the
:25:39. > :25:42.justice system to sweep up all the ills of society. On the one hand we
:25:42. > :25:47.have a justice minister saying there are too many people being in
:25:47. > :25:54.present. On the other hand, we have an amendment to a bill, where we do
:25:54. > :25:58.not have a clear view of what the offences are. Labour has put
:25:58. > :26:02.forward proposals six months after the original proposals were
:26:02. > :26:09.published. Is this a cynical attempt to be constructive? Not at
:26:09. > :26:15.will. At stage two I set out the main planks of that proposal.
:26:15. > :26:19.Roseanna Cunningham was good enough to acknowledge that it was a
:26:19. > :26:23.positive contribution. But not once has anybody spoken to me about the
:26:23. > :26:27.detail of that contribution from the Government, or taking any of
:26:27. > :26:30.the elements on board. And there were 12 stages within that action
:26:30. > :26:34.plan which taken together would rid us of sectarianism and we would
:26:34. > :26:39.make sure it was done in a positive way. It is not a healthy society
:26:39. > :26:49.that merely delivers laws because the police once them. George
:26:49. > :26:49.
:26:49. > :26:53.Kerevan, that was Labour's attempt to tackle sectarianism at the root
:26:53. > :26:58.problem. Is that better than putting focus on football songs?
:26:58. > :27:02.we have to do both. I would be worried if anyone in the SNP
:27:02. > :27:06.claimed to have a monopoly of wisdom on this. We have to work
:27:06. > :27:10.together. It is not just a question of society. Sometimes we need to
:27:10. > :27:14.stand up and say, we are being counted and this cannot go on. If
:27:14. > :27:21.we look at the terrible things that happened last year, his problem is
:27:21. > :27:25.not going away. It is a dramatic problem and it is in our midst. The
:27:25. > :27:29.educated people have swept is under the table and we cannot do that
:27:29. > :27:36.anymore. It is not true to say that the current legislation was working.
:27:36. > :27:39.We have breach of the peace laws because the way they have been
:27:39. > :27:49.interpreted by the courts have meant that they have often back-
:27:49. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:54.pedalled on using these laws to combat bigotry. It is now 10 to
:27:54. > :27:59.make a big statement and we need to do that together. -- it is now time.
:27:59. > :28:01.Thank you. A group of football fans have been prevented from watching a
:28:01. > :28:08.sectarian debate in a Scottish Parliament because they were
:28:08. > :28:18.wearing gritters T-shirts. They closing spelt out fans not
:28:18. > :28:22.criminals and they were banned from We will be live at Westminster
:28:22. > :28:28.after the Prime Minister's resounding No to the rest of Europe.
:28:28. > :28:33.There were roundly -- rowdy exchanges between David Cameron at
:28:33. > :28:37.Ed Miliband at the last PMQs of the year. Rising youth unemployment was
:28:37. > :28:43.one of the key issues. Here is a flavour of the debate. The whole
:28:43. > :28:46.house will have had, he cannot deny, the central economic claim that he
:28:47. > :28:50.made that the private sector would fill the gap left by the public
:28:50. > :28:55.sector and it has not been that, he has broken his promise and today's
:28:55. > :29:01.figures confirm also that youth and imply that not only remains above
:29:01. > :29:05.one million, it is still rising -- youth unemployment. And long-term
:29:05. > :29:10.youth unemployment has gone up by 93% since he made his new year
:29:10. > :29:14.pledge on jobs. Isn't the reality that he is betraying a whole
:29:14. > :29:20.generation of young people? won't take lectures from a party
:29:20. > :29:24.that put up UK unemployment by 40%. That is the case. Even his brother
:29:24. > :29:29.admitted the other day that youth unemployment was not a problem
:29:29. > :29:35.invented by this government, it has been going up since 2004. Let me
:29:35. > :29:41.explain what we are doing. Through the youth contract, we are
:29:41. > :29:44.providing 160,000 new jobs with private sector subsidies. With
:29:44. > :29:49.250,000 work-experience places, half of those people are actually
:29:49. > :29:55.getting jobs and getting off benefits within two months. That is
:29:55. > :29:59.20 times more effective than the Future Jobs Fund. The absolute key
:30:00. > :30:08.to this is getting the economy moving. We need a private sector
:30:08. > :30:12.jobs. And it is this government that has got interest rates down to
:30:12. > :30:16.2%, that is why we have the prospects of growth, whereas his
:30:16. > :30:22.plans offer more spending, more borrowing, more debt, more of the
:30:22. > :30:25.mess that we started with. Speaker, the truth is that his
:30:25. > :30:30.promises to young people for next year are as worthless as the
:30:30. > :30:36.promises he made in 2011. Let's turn from his broken promise on
:30:36. > :30:42.jobs to his broken promise on the coalition. Mr Speaker, let me say
:30:42. > :30:52.it is good to see the Deputy Prime Minister back...
:30:52. > :30:58.CHEERING. This is what he said... Calm down,
:30:58. > :31:04.calm down. This is what he said in his new year's message for 2011, I
:31:04. > :31:09.will place at a copy of the library of a house so everyone can see it.
:31:09. > :31:15.He said coalition politics is not always straightforward. But I
:31:15. > :31:25.believe we are bringing in a whole new style of government.
:31:25. > :31:29.
:31:29. > :31:37.Bath. -- There is more. "and a more collegiate approach." I am bound to
:31:37. > :31:41.ask, of what has gone wrong? I well and serve. Look, no one in this
:31:41. > :31:46.house is going to be surprised that Conservatives and Liberal Democrats
:31:46. > :31:52.don't always agree about Europe. Let me reassure him, he shouldn't
:31:52. > :31:55.believe everything he reads in the papers. It is not that bad. It is
:31:55. > :32:05.not like Webb Brothers, are already thing.
:32:05. > :32:13.
:32:13. > :32:17.CHEERING. He certainly walked into that one!
:32:18. > :32:21.It was a better deal for Britain that he should have got and that is
:32:21. > :32:27.what the Deputy Prime Minister himself says. Here is the truth.
:32:27. > :32:32.Last week, he made a catastrophic mistake. This week we discover
:32:32. > :32:35.unemployment at its highest level for 17 years. Mr Speaker, this
:32:35. > :32:42.Prime Minister thinks he is born to rule. The truth is, he's just not
:32:42. > :32:48.very good at it. Even the soundbite was recycled from a previous PMQs.
:32:48. > :32:51.So on Wednesday, the answer was no, today, I think the answer is maybe.
:32:51. > :33:00.This leader of the Labour Party makes weakness and indecision an
:33:00. > :33:05.art form. Now, he was giving me my end-of-year report. Let me keep --
:33:05. > :33:15.give him his. He told us that the start-up year in his message that
:33:15. > :33:15.
:33:15. > :33:19.the fightback started in Scotland. said he would cut the deficit, we
:33:19. > :33:24.haven't seen that. He said he would stand up to vested interest but
:33:24. > :33:29.back the biggest strike for years. We all know he has done one thing,
:33:29. > :33:34.he has completely united his party. Every single one has asked Santa
:33:35. > :33:40.for the same thing a, a new leader for Christmas. Let's stay at
:33:40. > :33:44.Westminster and joined David Porter. -- and join. On Twitter, the Prime
:33:44. > :33:50.Minister was said to have done well at PMQs. Is he managing to control
:33:50. > :33:57.the European issue? The final PMQs of 2011 aback think he will be
:33:57. > :34:02.relieved that the way it went. Two issues dominating PMQs, Europe and
:34:02. > :34:07.the economy, added some ways, those two issues can fight together --
:34:07. > :34:14.and in some ways. To discuss that, I am joined by four observers of
:34:14. > :34:21.the Scottish political sweet -- seen. Jo Swinson, buried their
:34:21. > :34:26.cloud -- Mary MacLeod, Cathy Jamieson and Stewart Hosie. Jo
:34:26. > :34:31.Swinson, we really should start on the economy. Today's and imply that
:34:31. > :34:36.figures, however look at that -- however you look at them, bad for
:34:36. > :34:39.the UK and bad for Scotland? It is deeply worrying, that is why it is
:34:39. > :34:42.important that everyone works together. The Scottish government
:34:42. > :34:46.have responsibility for many aspects but of fears that the
:34:46. > :34:51.coalition government with the Liberal Democrat secretary of state,
:34:51. > :34:55.very keen to get out there and find solutions -- obvious that. We have
:34:55. > :34:59.been holding summits, bringing together employers and colleges and
:34:59. > :35:04.young people to try and get particularly young people into work.
:35:04. > :35:08.We know that youth unemployment is the most damaging and that is why
:35:08. > :35:11.the recently announced youth contract to get young people into
:35:11. > :35:18.jobs are other very much for four by the Liberal Democrats, is such
:35:18. > :35:22.good news. -- very much fought for. We need to get people into jobs
:35:22. > :35:27.that have fully reverse these numbers. Mary MacLeod, a week after
:35:27. > :35:30.week, David Cameron says that unemployment is a terrible waste.
:35:31. > :35:36.Youth unemployment in particular. But month after month, the figures
:35:36. > :35:41.are going up, there is no sign of it turning. We are certainly
:35:41. > :35:43.looking forward to doing something about that right now. It is
:35:43. > :35:48.something we inherited but need to do something about and that is why
:35:48. > :35:51.we have put money into doing things like work-experience and
:35:51. > :35:55.apprenticeships, making sure that we change the welfare system so
:35:55. > :36:00.that young people are doing work experience and apprenticeships and
:36:00. > :36:05.it counts towards them gaining experience to go on and get a job.
:36:05. > :36:09.We did our how critically important it is. I also think we should, and
:36:10. > :36:17.the media can help other tour Cup Britain in terms of what we can
:36:17. > :36:21.deliver and the great skills that we have -- talk up. Cathy Jamieson,
:36:21. > :36:26.from the Labour point of view, or to some extent it is a free hit in
:36:26. > :36:31.political terms, but it is a brutal fact that if the jobs are not there
:36:31. > :36:36.you cannot just create them. This is too important for it to be as
:36:36. > :36:40.simple free hit politically, although I will make a number of
:36:40. > :36:44.political points. 25,000 more people on the dole coming up to
:36:44. > :36:49.Christmas, a youth Anna Blyth it at crisis levels. We are seeing
:36:49. > :36:54.unemployment levels at crisis levels for the over fifties as well.
:36:54. > :36:57.We are losing jobs in the public sector fast the that jobs and the
:36:57. > :37:01.private sector are being created and Labour has been arguing for a
:37:01. > :37:06.change of course or the five-point plan we have been putting forward,
:37:06. > :37:11.getting people back into work, back into the construction industry and
:37:11. > :37:16.infrastructure and a real focus on youth unemployment. The one thing I
:37:16. > :37:19.will say is I will welcome the -- appointment of the youth employment
:37:19. > :37:25.minister, I think that is a welcome step but it is not meant to be
:37:25. > :37:29.enough. Stewart Hosie, you would not been that some of those
:37:29. > :37:34.comments. Your government is responsible in Scotland -- you were
:37:34. > :37:40.nodding. It now has higher and imply that than the rest of the UK,
:37:40. > :37:44.what can your cover would be doing? A bit is a bandit is a
:37:44. > :37:48.disappointing and there is a balance -- it is up and it is. The
:37:48. > :37:52.Scottish situation is reversed, there are more private sector jobs
:37:52. > :37:57.created than public sector jobs lost but that does not hold the
:37:57. > :38:01.fact that across the UK, it is reversed. And with 50% plus the
:38:01. > :38:08.youth and in private, these are extraordinary figures. All
:38:09. > :38:16.governments need to do everything. There is an opportunity to make
:38:16. > :38:21.sure children and youth gets training and apprenticeship but the
:38:21. > :38:27.key thing is creating jobs, whether it is direct capital investment and
:38:27. > :38:32.I think the Chancellor was wrong in refusing to be profiled and hand
:38:32. > :38:36.direct capital investment to create jobs now. If things are bad now,
:38:36. > :38:41.Stewart Hosie, if the euro implodes, they are going to be a whole lot
:38:41. > :38:47.worse. He is Britain in a better place now than a week ago before
:38:47. > :38:52.David Cameron invoked the veto -- is Britain. No, we are now or
:38:52. > :38:56.isolated. I want the euro to survive and be strong because the
:38:56. > :39:01.recovery will largely be measured by exporting into a strong eurozone
:39:01. > :39:05.and a strong EU, so we need less of the Petit euro-sceptics sniping
:39:05. > :39:08.from the sidelines and as much support as possible to make sure
:39:08. > :39:12.the euro survives and is strong and we can export into the growing
:39:12. > :39:16.European car economy for the benefit of Scotland about the UK
:39:16. > :39:21.and the rest of Europe. Cathy Jamieson, if Ed Miliband had been
:39:21. > :39:25.there, would he have invoked the veto or signed up to the deal?
:39:25. > :39:30.Let's be clear, our veto means to stop it going ahead. The others
:39:30. > :39:35.have gone ahead without us. What Ed Miliband has said repeatedly is he
:39:35. > :39:40.would have stayed at the table to try and negotiate a better deal and
:39:40. > :39:44.it seems that Michael Moore is in support of our position now. The
:39:44. > :39:50.important thing is we cannot allow things simply to be a sombre side
:39:50. > :39:56.like not having a voice at the table, -- bus on the sidelines, and
:39:56. > :39:59.the danger is that is what is going to happens. Mary, some people on
:39:59. > :40:04.the Conservative backbenches are happy about what has happened. They
:40:04. > :40:09.want to see this as the start of repatriating more powers from the
:40:09. > :40:13.EU back to Great Britain. That will cause tensions for your party.
:40:13. > :40:18.don't think so. There are various using the party about Europe but
:40:18. > :40:21.one thing the Prime Minister was right about his standing up for
:40:21. > :40:27.British national interests. He said he was going to do it and he did it
:40:27. > :40:31.and that was right. In terms of the particle but we have all said that
:40:31. > :40:36.most others want more powers repatriated to the UK -- in terms
:40:36. > :40:40.of the party. Europe has too much control. We want to be it -- a
:40:40. > :40:45.strong partner in a single market but we want to make sure we have
:40:45. > :40:48.Alliance sovereignty and make our decisions and are not constantly
:40:48. > :40:53.overruled by Europe. You were critical of the Prime Minister on
:40:53. > :40:56.Monday, you thought he could have done a better job of negotiating.
:40:56. > :41:03.Have the Liberal Democrats been bulldozed in the coalition? Not at
:41:03. > :41:05.all. I think the Liberal Democrats are providing what is a very
:41:05. > :41:10.essential remembrance for the coalition government, that, as
:41:10. > :41:15.Stewart says, at trade with Europe is so important for the economic
:41:15. > :41:19.recovery and been engaged with EU partners is vital. The Cabinet
:41:19. > :41:22.agreed just yesterday that there would be a proactive strategy of
:41:22. > :41:27.real engagement with the European partners. Liberal Democrat
:41:27. > :41:31.ministers have been building these alliances to try and the regulator
:41:31. > :41:36.and help British businesses and their Iraq like-minded crunchers
:41:36. > :41:43.across the EU -- there are like- minded countries across the EU.
:41:43. > :41:47.Crystal ball gazing time, is the euro going to survive in 2012?
:41:47. > :41:51.very much hope so. We did have a crystal ball but it is not out of
:41:51. > :41:55.the bloodshed, there is still be possibility with the political
:41:56. > :42:00.wealth -- we are not out of the project but with the possibility of
:42:00. > :42:03.the political will, I really hope it will. I hope we have a strong
:42:03. > :42:09.British economy and more jobs with less and imply that but I do not
:42:09. > :42:12.have great hopes for the euro. -- employment. The consequences are
:42:12. > :42:15.that collapsing would be devastating for the economy.
:42:15. > :42:21.there is proper support for the sovereign markets in Europe, it
:42:21. > :42:26.will survive. If it doesn't, we may be in serious trouble. All love you,
:42:26. > :42:30.thank you very much. So there you have it -- all of you. Hopes that
:42:30. > :42:35.the euro will survive, but not everyone is so sure. David Porter
:42:35. > :42:38.at Westminster, thank you very much. So as we've been hearing,
:42:38. > :42:45.unemployment in Scotland has risen again to 8.5%, taking it above the
:42:45. > :42:47.UK average of 8.3%. Another worrying figure is the number of
:42:47. > :42:50.young people looking for work. Latest figures show just under a
:42:50. > :42:53.quarter of 18-to-24-year-olds in Scotland are unemployed. So what's
:42:53. > :43:01.it like for young people who are struggling to find a job? Hayley
:43:01. > :43:06.Jarvis has been finding out. It is pretty difficult. Really
:43:06. > :43:11.searching hard. Matthew is 18 and looking for work. He wants to
:43:11. > :43:15.become a joiner so has enrolled on a course in Glasgow, where
:43:15. > :43:21.craftsmen help young people pick up new skills. That he feels employers
:43:21. > :43:26.are not interested in his generation. -- Matthew. Workplaces
:43:26. > :43:31.are looking for experience, we have not got it and be any way to get it
:43:31. > :43:35.is did have a job. I want a chance to get experience. Kieran, also 18,
:43:35. > :43:40.has been trying to get a job since May. What does he think the
:43:40. > :43:44.Government can do to help people in his position? We need funding so
:43:44. > :43:54.that training can go on longer. It is just a short period of work to
:43:54. > :43:58.17 year-old Glenn Campbell has been job-hunting for five months. He
:43:58. > :44:03.said he is struggling to pay his way. I have no money with my
:44:03. > :44:10.friends at the weekend. I just have no money. There is not much out
:44:11. > :44:15.there and not much help either. Glasgow, the 16-18 year-olds are
:44:15. > :44:18.getting help to find work at the Glasgow Regeneration Agency. For
:44:18. > :44:24.Fraser Michie, one of the most frustrating things about being
:44:24. > :44:28.unemployed, the boredom. There is nothing to do at the weekend, so I
:44:28. > :44:33.end up doing stupid things like getting drunk. I just don't do
:44:33. > :44:37.anything. Rachel is also 17 and left school in May. She wants to
:44:37. > :44:45.work with animals. She said that repeated not backs are affecting
:44:45. > :44:50.her confidence. -- knock backs. is at an all-time low. I think I
:44:50. > :44:54.have done well but I never have. Thomas has been looking for a job
:44:55. > :44:59.for six months. He just wants an employer to give him a chance.
:44:59. > :45:03.is quite annoying. A means you cannot get any job at all, unless
:45:03. > :45:07.you go to the JobCentre, and even then lots of the ones that you find
:45:07. > :45:12.there are just work experience. you need someone to give you a
:45:12. > :45:16.break? Basically. To discuss employment figures further, I am
:45:16. > :45:21.joined by Amy Dalrymple from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce.
:45:21. > :45:26.Thank you for coming in. There was concern from your chief executive
:45:26. > :45:31.about the number of young people unemployed. What is the story from
:45:31. > :45:34.businesses down on the ground when it comes to youth unemployment?
:45:34. > :45:38.is businesses that will be creating jobs for them. Business is the only
:45:38. > :45:42.sector with the capacity to do that and you can see that if you delve
:45:42. > :45:46.into the figures. Private sector employment has actually gone up and
:45:46. > :45:51.the decrease comes from the public sector. It is really important that
:45:51. > :45:53.businesses are supported to create these jobs. There is a lot of
:45:53. > :45:59.uncertainty in the economy and businesses need help and support
:45:59. > :46:04.from the Government. That will give them the posh, the incentive, to
:46:04. > :46:09.create jobs for our young people. - - the plush. That is what we are
:46:09. > :46:17.calling for. How can that help be targeted? National Insurance
:46:17. > :46:21.holidays, for example? No. We are doing a lot of work on skills as
:46:21. > :46:25.part of this got his Government reform proposals. One of the things
:46:25. > :46:29.that we will be calling for will be employability money that is spread
:46:29. > :46:32.around the training providers at the moment to be directed more at
:46:32. > :46:38.businesses, so that the businesses themselves are in control and can
:46:38. > :46:48.use that money to take in young, unemployed people, giving them a
:46:48. > :46:54.chance of getting a job, and saving the tragedy that we see today of so
:46:54. > :46:56.many looking for work, on the scrapheap at the age of 20.
:46:56. > :47:04.quarter of 1824 year-olds are unemployed, which is a lot of
:47:05. > :47:08.people. -- 18-24 year-olds. Are you impress that there is a new youth
:47:09. > :47:15.unemployment minister in the Scottish Government? I absolutely.
:47:15. > :47:19.We welcome the fact that they give it such priority that they have
:47:19. > :47:25.appointed a minister. I will be seeking an early meeting with her.
:47:25. > :47:31.Alex Salmond has looked at a meeting between the leaders of the
:47:31. > :47:34.devolved Nations and the UK Government to come up with a plan.
:47:34. > :47:38.Angela Constance has expressed a willingness to meet with businesses,
:47:38. > :47:44.but because it is businesses, because it is the private sector
:47:44. > :47:47.that has the capacity to create jobs for people, it is really
:47:47. > :47:50.important that there is proper engagement going on there. It is
:47:50. > :47:54.not just something that the Government can help within
:47:55. > :47:58.isolation. You have got to engage with our members, really. The Prime
:47:58. > :48:02.Minister was emphasising that point at PMQs today, that private
:48:02. > :48:07.business has to create that. We have seen a fall in the number of
:48:07. > :48:12.public sector workers as well. Our business people too scared to move
:48:12. > :48:16.forward, too scared to invest? The economic situation that we are
:48:16. > :48:25.facing is frightening for lots of people. It depends on which sector
:48:25. > :48:32.that you look at. Some sectors are doing better than others. There are
:48:32. > :48:37.lots of problems with skills in some sectors. In other areas, the
:48:37. > :48:41.British Retail Consortium released figures yesterday, and they are
:48:41. > :48:44.struggling and they are worried. If you are struggling, you have not
:48:44. > :48:53.got the confidence to take on the investment that a member of staff
:48:53. > :48:57.can be. Total sales fell by 1.3% in November, falling at the fastest
:48:57. > :49:07.rate since they began compiling those figures 12 years ago. It
:49:07. > :49:08.
:49:08. > :49:16.looks pretty gloomy on the High Street. Yes, it is a continuation
:49:16. > :49:24.of the ferry unoptimistic trend, I have to say. -- very. A Christmas
:49:24. > :49:27.and how much people decide to spend will be crucial. We are seeing the
:49:27. > :49:31.same figures that we have seen for seven months, with people shopping
:49:31. > :49:38.online, supermarkets buying for increasingly canny customers.
:49:38. > :49:42.Shopping habits are changing. The Mary Portas report on our high
:49:42. > :49:52.streets was released yesterday, and it looks at towns and retailers
:49:52. > :49:58.needing to adapt to a new shop a mentality. We will be doing lots of
:49:58. > :50:03.work with our members based in towns. Not just retailers. It is
:50:03. > :50:08.across the business sectors. But it does include retailers. We want to
:50:08. > :50:13.make sure that businesses can adapt to the economic situation that we
:50:13. > :50:15.are still finding ourselves in. Dalrymple from the Scottish
:50:15. > :50:21.Chambers of Commerce, thank you for joining us.
:50:21. > :50:24.Let's go back to the chamber once again. MSPs have been voting on the
:50:24. > :50:28.new anti-sectarian legislation. They have voted through the
:50:28. > :50:34.amendments and now the debate is starting. Our commentator is Sarah
:50:34. > :50:38.Patterson. Thank you. We have finished all the amendments. The
:50:38. > :50:41.Green Party MSP is pushing to ensure that the Scottish Government
:50:41. > :50:45.has to consult the public no matter how minor the change to the bill.
:50:45. > :50:51.That has been voted down. But he did win an agreement that the
:50:51. > :50:59.review that is going to be carried out after two football seasons will
:50:59. > :51:07.be debated at that time by MSPs. The minister was suggesting a
:51:07. > :51:11.curious technical change. The legislation stated that British
:51:11. > :51:14.citizens would be affected, but of course that had to be changed to
:51:14. > :51:18.Scottish residence. On all of the opposition benches they are
:51:18. > :51:25.unanimous that they will not support these new laws. The
:51:25. > :51:28.Scottish Government is saying that it is the new step towards tackling
:51:29. > :51:33.the scourge of sectarianism. We have had the amendments and now we
:51:33. > :51:41.have the meat of the political heat in the closing debate. Roseanna
:51:41. > :51:47.Cunningham, the minister in charge, is on her feet in the chamber.
:51:47. > :51:52.I attended the Joint Action Group Meeting at Hampden. The SPL, backed
:51:52. > :51:56.by the SFL and the SFA have agreed their proposals to tackling
:51:56. > :52:01.unacceptable supporter conduct, promoting higher standards of clubs
:52:01. > :52:05.and introducing a new, independent sanctioning regime. So we are
:52:05. > :52:12.seeing new, focus action from the police and we will seek tougher
:52:12. > :52:15.standards for football clubs applied by the football authorities.
:52:15. > :52:20.What of Government? The critical role for Government in his
:52:20. > :52:24.partnership is to make sure that the law is fit for purpose. -- in
:52:24. > :52:30.this partnership. The question was asked whether current laws are
:52:30. > :52:33.adequate to ensure the unacceptable behaviour we are seeing is stopped.
:52:33. > :52:38.A fundamental change was not required, but the expected vice was
:52:38. > :52:42.clear. The laws could be improved, both in terms of tackling sectarian
:52:42. > :52:46.and other offensive behaviour at football matches, and
:52:46. > :52:52.communications in particular on the internet. This simple point seems
:52:52. > :52:59.to have been lost in what I think is a fog of denial and sometimes
:52:59. > :53:04.apparently wilful misunderstanding. James Kelly. I thank the Minister
:53:04. > :53:08.for taking intervention. The minister cites this as the view of
:53:08. > :53:12.the Joint Action Group but it was also the view of the football
:53:12. > :53:16.club's that action needed to be implemented. Football clubs know
:53:16. > :53:22.perfectly well that they should get their house in order. The advice on
:53:22. > :53:26.the experts was clear. A change in the law would assist police and
:53:26. > :53:32.prosecutors in stamping out this most visible form of sectarianism.
:53:32. > :53:36.In the face of this expert advice, the Government's responsibility to
:53:36. > :53:46.act was clear. We have always fully accepted that this was about
:53:46. > :53:46.
:53:46. > :53:52.evolution, not revolution in law, sharpening the tours are -- tours
:53:52. > :53:55.are available and not getting a new ones. It is very difficult to
:53:55. > :54:00.reconcile the view that these measures add nothing to the
:54:00. > :54:06.existing law and are therefore an necessary, with the idea often
:54:06. > :54:10.expressed in almost the same breath that they are unworkable and not
:54:10. > :54:14.liberal. Roseanna Cunningham speaking about the new anti-
:54:14. > :54:17.sectarian legislation. I am joined for the final time by our political
:54:17. > :54:22.commentator for the afternoon, Eddie Barnes. We have spoken quite
:54:22. > :54:28.a bit about the anti-sectarian legislation. Let's go back to one
:54:28. > :54:34.thing that we are discussing, the European Union problems that David
:54:34. > :54:39.Cameron face. Do think he managed to deal with the issue at PMQs? --
:54:39. > :54:44.do you think? He will be delighted by the way it has transpired. Today
:54:44. > :54:54.he managed to treat it as a joke because it did dispute between him
:54:54. > :54:58.
:54:58. > :55:03.and Nick Clegg was not a dispute between brothers. I think he will
:55:03. > :55:07.be more than happy about the way things have transpired. It does
:55:07. > :55:11.seem that he has the support of the British people, which I think he
:55:11. > :55:18.was pretty pleased about. Most people are not following up the
:55:18. > :55:23.technical ins and outs of exactly what it was to use the veto for and
:55:23. > :55:26.what the EU were proposing. We know from opinion polls that people in
:55:26. > :55:29.Britain are rather euro-sceptic and they saw him coming back having
:55:30. > :55:33.stood up for Britain, as he described it. I think that has
:55:33. > :55:38.played well, but whether it will play well over the coming months,
:55:38. > :55:42.we don't know. The eurozone is in a complete state of flux. Nick Clegg
:55:42. > :55:47.said that he wanted to re-engage with Europe. On that technical
:55:47. > :55:51.point, when it comes to using the veto, as it been explained clearly
:55:51. > :55:57.enough exactly what was happening? People were mystified about what
:55:57. > :56:03.was going on in Brussels that night. Absolutely, not least the British
:56:03. > :56:07.delegation's themselves. They were not aware of what was happening as
:56:07. > :56:13.the midnight hours ticked away. These are fiercely complex issues.
:56:13. > :56:16.Not only did we have to take into account British politics but 26
:56:16. > :56:23.other political situations in all of these countries, all of which
:56:23. > :56:27.came to play around that table. It is fiercely complicated and it all
:56:27. > :56:34.boils down to a simple calculation, which is that David Cameron is seen
:56:34. > :56:38.to have stood up for the country and at that moment it was seen to
:56:38. > :56:43.be popular. We are heading into the final week before Christmas but one
:56:43. > :56:47.major event is still to happen before Saturday. Yes, as the
:56:47. > :56:53.Scottish body politic stumbles, exhausted, towards the new year, we
:56:53. > :56:58.have got the Labour leadership result on the Saturday before
:56:59. > :57:04.Christmas. Their next Thursday, just before Christmas itself, the
:57:04. > :57:11.new leader has to stand up for First Minister's Questions, in
:57:11. > :57:14.their first outing as the new leader. The money at the moment is
:57:14. > :57:24.that Ken Mackintosh and Tom Harris will be pipped at the post. We will
:57:24. > :57:34.
:57:35. > :57:37.see. What would it mean for the Ken Mackintosh has pitched himself
:57:37. > :57:44.as a fresh-faced, someone that can connect with someone outside the
:57:44. > :57:47.party, and not necessarily traditional Labour supporters. The
:57:47. > :57:51.problem is that nobody knows who these people are. They are up
:57:51. > :57:57.against somebody in Alex Salmond he everybody knows. That will be an
:57:57. > :58:02.initial problem that they will have to face and combat in 2012.
:58:02. > :58:07.this contest been inspiring? It was announced a week before Christmas,
:58:07. > :58:13.when lot of people will not be paying too much attention to it. As
:58:13. > :58:17.it caught people's imagination? really has not. We had the
:58:18. > :58:23.Conservative contest before this. It was operatic in the way that it
:58:23. > :58:26.went forward. But this one has been quite the dirge. Thank you for
:58:27. > :58:32.joining us. Thank you for your company this afternoon. That is all
:58:32. > :58:38.we have time for today. Join us for our final programme of 2011 next