:00:17. > :00:21.Good afternoon and welcome to the programme.
:00:22. > :00:23.As Scotland's Finance Secretary Derek Mackay gets set
:00:24. > :00:27.to announce his first budget, we examine what might be in store.
:00:28. > :00:30.Here at Westminster big issues under discussion: How can social care be
:00:31. > :00:36.funded and what form will Brexit take?
:00:37. > :00:38.Finance Secretary Derek Mackay will have unprecedented powers
:00:39. > :00:40.to play with when he stands up to present the Scottish budget
:00:41. > :00:44.So what do you need to know ahead of Scotland's budget?
:00:45. > :00:46.To give his insight lets speak to our political
:00:47. > :00:59.They have broadcast all of this in advance haven't they? They will not
:01:00. > :01:04.change the main tax rates at goal with the threshold. We have the
:01:05. > :01:09.small matter of an election and manifesto. The SNP set out what they
:01:10. > :01:13.intended to do, leave the rates alone, we will not replicate the
:01:14. > :01:20.proposals that the Chancellor has in place from 2017, the starting point
:01:21. > :01:24.for the higher rate, the 40p rate of tax in England and the rest of the
:01:25. > :01:32.UK are to be 45,000, 50,000 in Scotland. In other words a lower
:01:33. > :01:38.starting rate, so a higher tax rate for people in Scotland. Just a
:01:39. > :01:42.higher rate than in England because there will be a cut there. We have
:01:43. > :01:46.the budget tomorrow as you said, but rather to compel you to do that this
:01:47. > :01:51.afternoon in the shape of a debate called by the Conservatives on those
:01:52. > :01:54.very tax plans. They say it is all very well saying the small amount
:01:55. > :02:00.and bills will stay as they are go down, they say that a tax bill in
:02:01. > :02:07.Scotland is higher for higher taxpayers than it is enabled, they
:02:08. > :02:12.say it is unfair. You mention the Tories, for those of us with long
:02:13. > :02:14.memories in the first period the SNP administration, the Tories always
:02:15. > :02:19.turn up and voted for the budget having got a deal but given the fast
:02:20. > :02:22.they are making about this threshold they could not really vote for the
:02:23. > :02:28.budget could they? Unless it was abolished. I don't think they can,
:02:29. > :02:31.they are using the debate as a signal, a statement to see if there
:02:32. > :02:36.were any doubt we will not vote for the SNP budget or even abstain to
:02:37. > :02:40.allow it to pass. That is all Derek Mackay means, one party to abstain.
:02:41. > :02:44.The Conservatives are doing that for a range of reasons, one is that they
:02:45. > :02:50.are in a more oppositional mode giving their status as in opposition
:02:51. > :02:55.party in Hollywood. They gained status of the lack of standing up
:02:56. > :02:59.for the union, and appointing themselves to the SNP does not leave
:03:00. > :03:04.room for them to support the SNP budget. And on tax they believe it
:03:05. > :03:09.is fundamentally wrong for people in Scotland to pay more tax, whatever
:03:10. > :03:12.the justification, than people in England. In response to that Derek
:03:13. > :03:19.Mackay will say that his tax plans are balanced, that they are fair,
:03:20. > :03:23.that it is reasonable to load slightly more onto those in the
:03:24. > :03:27.higher earnings brackets and Derek Mackay will also say this is the
:03:28. > :03:32.Tories showing their true colours, they don't want to devolve powers to
:03:33. > :03:41.be put into place at all. Weighted get the votes of the abstainers? Is
:03:42. > :03:45.it the Greens? It could be. I doubt it will be Labour, they are licking
:03:46. > :03:51.their wounds of the election and I can see them go with the SNP. From
:03:52. > :03:55.the other side they will argue that there should be an increase in
:03:56. > :03:58.taxation to protect spending. The Lib Dems and the Greens to be clear
:03:59. > :04:01.have different policies on tax, different from each other but
:04:02. > :04:06.different from the Scottish Government. It is more likely that
:04:07. > :04:11.Derek Mackay will try to pick off one of them, perhaps an offer to the
:04:12. > :04:14.Lib Dems on mental health, an issue that Willie Rennie has made his own
:04:15. > :04:18.to some extent, perhaps an offer to the Green party on environmental
:04:19. > :04:21.improvements to the housing stock, perhaps something along those lines.
:04:22. > :04:25.These deals, I think a deal will take place but not now. They don't
:04:26. > :04:28.need to deal now, only strike a bargain in spring when the final
:04:29. > :04:31.vote is coming close. Thank you. The Brexit Secretary David Davis has
:04:32. > :04:33.made his first appearance in front of the Committee on Exiting
:04:34. > :04:35.the European Union. Our Westminster Correspondent David
:04:36. > :04:45.Porter joins us now. David I am told he has been quite
:04:46. > :04:50.open in seeing interesting things. The Almighty has it is a busy day on
:04:51. > :04:54.the Brexit front, at the moment and other day that has been appealing
:04:55. > :04:56.for the Scottish affairs committee on specifically what Brexit will
:04:57. > :05:02.mean for Scotland's relationship with the EU and the UK and the rest
:05:03. > :05:09.of the UK, but David Davis has started giving evidence to the main
:05:10. > :05:13.Brexit committee, officially known as the select committee on exiting
:05:14. > :05:17.the European Union. He was asked when the government would put
:05:18. > :05:21.forward its proposals ahead of triggering article 50, he said they
:05:22. > :05:24.would do that as soon as possible. It would be next month, it is more
:05:25. > :05:28.likely to be federally and of course it has to be before the end of
:05:29. > :05:32.March. -- more likely to be February. He would not be drawn on
:05:33. > :05:37.the form the proposals would take, a white paper or something more
:05:38. > :05:40.specific. He was asked about what he thought the timetable would be and
:05:41. > :05:44.he said he thought it would be achievable within two years like
:05:45. > :05:47.down in Article 50 in the negotiating period. He was then
:05:48. > :05:53.asked by the committee chairman Hilary Benn whether he agreed with
:05:54. > :05:58.the Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond that there may have
:05:59. > :06:03.to be some kind of transition agreement which goes on after the UK
:06:04. > :06:08.leaves the European Union but before it finally goes on its way. Last
:06:09. > :06:12.week the Chancellor said fossil politicians were thinking that we
:06:13. > :06:16.have to be the case. That meant that the chairman of the committee Hilary
:06:17. > :06:21.Benn could ask David Davis whether he was a thoughtful politician and
:06:22. > :06:26.whether he agreed with the Chancellor on the possibility of
:06:27. > :06:32.this transition period. I hope you can gratify me as a thoughtful
:06:33. > :06:37.politician in that context, in that context the baby quivered when I
:06:38. > :06:40.think we are going. Firstly, as the Prime Minister said a number of
:06:41. > :06:46.times and I said a number of times what we're after is a and orderly
:06:47. > :06:49.exit, that is the overarching aim and people get frustrated with us
:06:50. > :06:53.sticking to overarching aims, the point is that is what we are trying
:06:54. > :07:00.to do, that is the purpose of at least part of the tactics and
:07:01. > :07:05.strategy of this. Within that box we want to get the maximum market
:07:06. > :07:12.access for British companies with a minimum of disruption in the legal
:07:13. > :07:18.do what is necessary to that aim. What all those things cannot be
:07:19. > :07:27.negotiated within 18 months? He has said 18 months and I think that it
:07:28. > :07:31.is all negotiable in that time. That is because of this, really. We have
:07:32. > :07:34.a lot to do and that is one of the reasons, and you may have thought
:07:35. > :07:38.perhaps my opening article was not that helpful, it is one of the
:07:39. > :07:43.reasons that we are taking our time to get prepared on all fronts. That
:07:44. > :07:50.is why our 57 studies, 85% of the economy. Everything except sectors
:07:51. > :07:54.that are not affected by this trade. We are aiming to get ourselves in
:07:55. > :08:01.the position where we can negotiate within the article 50 process.
:08:02. > :08:05.David, what is emerging here? Is it a sort of David Davis Philip Hammond
:08:06. > :08:11.moderate except front as opposed to hard Brexit or is it something
:08:12. > :08:14.different? You are quite right, there are tensions, let's put it
:08:15. > :08:19.that way, the top of the UK Government as to how they want to do
:08:20. > :08:23.this process, there are some who are very keen on Brexit and think it
:08:24. > :08:26.ought to just be done after two years Anderson as it is done we
:08:27. > :08:32.believe, the other to say for very good reasons, like the finance
:08:33. > :08:36.industry, there may need to be a transitionary agreement before we
:08:37. > :08:39.finally get to Brexit. Very slowly and very very slowly, we are getting
:08:40. > :08:44.more information from the UK Government but I think we will find
:08:45. > :08:48.this afternoon not nearly enough information for the MPs who are
:08:49. > :08:49.questioning David Davis. We will be back later.
:08:50. > :08:52.Well, to discuss the day's stories I'm joined by Andy Maciver -
:08:53. > :08:55.Director of the PR agency Message Matters, and former
:08:56. > :08:57.Head of Communications for the Scottish Conservatives.
:08:58. > :09:10.What do you make of what is emerging from the government on Brexit? Is
:09:11. > :09:13.there a split? Are we seeing a Hammond did this front? There is
:09:14. > :09:17.definitely a split that there was was going to be a split, because I
:09:18. > :09:20.don't see how you can have a reconcile the views of someone can
:09:21. > :09:25.and who wants to stay as much in the single market as he can with the
:09:26. > :09:28.views of someone like Liam Fox who is not interested in that it has
:09:29. > :09:32.made it quite clear that the single market access is not worth the price
:09:33. > :09:36.to pay at that price is some form of movement and immigration so there
:09:37. > :09:39.was always going to be a spike and I think there will be a Cabinet split
:09:40. > :09:44.at some point, it is difficult to avoid that unless somebody
:09:45. > :09:49.completely backs down. David Davis position is... What you mean a
:09:50. > :09:52.Cabinet split? In open rebellion? I think people will at some point
:09:53. > :09:56.during the course of article 50 be leaving the Cabinet. I do not see
:09:57. > :09:59.how if they stick to the principles and stick to the statements they
:10:00. > :10:06.have made before, at least one or two of them will be upset with the
:10:07. > :10:11.result will have to go. You are thinking of the likes of Liam Fox?
:10:12. > :10:16.You can imagine him going along with being in a customs union. Exactly.
:10:17. > :10:20.We Fox is the perfect example on that side of the debate, if it goes
:10:21. > :10:24.the way it is starting to look like it is going because David Davis is
:10:25. > :10:28.definitely made a move you and him and Hammond appear to have formed
:10:29. > :10:35.some kind of access around the middle sensible neither hard and
:10:36. > :10:39.soft type of Brexit. I think someone like Liam Fox is in a difficult
:10:40. > :10:45.position and I'm not sure how he can then hold on in that circumstance.
:10:46. > :10:48.Davis is ambiguous, if we believe that lead to the Financial Times
:10:49. > :10:51.other day he was telling the Corporation of London that he did
:10:52. > :10:56.not really care about a transitional arrangement for financial services,
:10:57. > :11:00.the so-called passport in a regiment and he would only have it if the
:11:01. > :11:05.Europeans wanted it, as if we were doing them a favour. This is when it
:11:06. > :11:07.becomes difficult because nobody knows and nobody in the government
:11:08. > :11:12.really knows what is going to happen. Negotiation can start until
:11:13. > :11:15.article 50 is triggered the Nvidia position sometimes because they're
:11:16. > :11:20.being asked specific questions and a simple account of the answers. Davis
:11:21. > :11:24.has come close to giving some indications as to the direction of
:11:25. > :11:26.travel is not being specific on it because the county but he's
:11:27. > :11:30.definitely indicating the direction of travel which is a bit softer than
:11:31. > :11:32.people thought it was going to be. Don't go away, we will come back to
:11:33. > :11:33.you. Companies forced to pay
:11:34. > :11:35.higher wages could be pushed out of Scotland,
:11:36. > :11:37.the Scottish Conservatives The Tories are leading the debate
:11:38. > :11:41.on tax, and are unhappy with SNP plans not to implement a UK
:11:42. > :11:44.government tax cut for high earners. The Conservative Murdo Fraser
:11:45. > :12:00.is on his feet now. Tax tended to the personal allowance
:12:01. > :12:03.threshold which will make every higher rate taxpayer about ?15 a
:12:04. > :12:08.month better. Does Michael Frazier really need an extra ?15 a month in
:12:09. > :12:15.his pocket when other people are to coin a phrase just about managing?
:12:16. > :12:20.Mr Harvey is being ungenerous. Evil will of the measures taken by the UK
:12:21. > :12:24.Government to more than double the threshold for income tax, lifting
:12:25. > :12:28.millions of families from the lowest paid in Britain out of tax. Our
:12:29. > :12:33.record on that is unsurpassed. Presiding officer, looking ahead to
:12:34. > :12:38.the Scottish Government budget, one half of the total funds, I will give
:12:39. > :12:42.religion, one half of the total funds available to the finance
:12:43. > :12:51.secretary will come from taxes derived in Scotland. The advocates
:12:52. > :12:58.living, income tax, national income. If the economy doesn't roll in the
:12:59. > :13:01.tax revenue doesn't grow either. The other 50% comes in the form of a
:13:02. > :13:03.block grant from Westminster now determined by the fiscal framework
:13:04. > :13:08.negotiated between the UK and Scottish governments. In terms of
:13:09. > :13:12.that framework it is the relative performance of the Scottish economy
:13:13. > :13:20.compared to the UK as a whole that calculates that saw the Scottish
:13:21. > :13:25.economy continues to underperform we in Scotland face a 11-way. We are
:13:26. > :13:29.raising less taxes from even Scotland and the fiscal framework
:13:30. > :13:34.means that the block grant will reduce the amount of money coming
:13:35. > :13:37.from Westminster. The consequence of economic underperformance is like
:13:38. > :13:47.sparks revenue to fund our vital services. I will take Mr Rennie. He
:13:48. > :13:52.seems to have ignored the real benefit of trying to boost the
:13:53. > :13:56.skills in Scottish society to push the economy, he only seems to think
:13:57. > :14:01.that tax is the answer for posting that. Does he not recognise the
:14:02. > :14:04.other side of the equation? I am so disappointed with the Willie Rennie
:14:05. > :14:08.'s approach to this. I remember the days when average Scot led the
:14:09. > :14:12.Liberal Democrats and Michael Russell went into the budget
:14:13. > :14:18.negotiations with John Swinney cutting paper demanding a 2% cut in
:14:19. > :14:21.income tax, he cut income tax, what a shame that under Willie Rennie the
:14:22. > :14:28.Liberal Democrats have lunch to the left and are demanding an increase
:14:29. > :14:35.in tax instead of a cut. So what's the SNP seem to have in the plan is
:14:36. > :14:38.to hit Scotland with a ?1 billion surcharge on families and businesses
:14:39. > :14:42.that make Scotland a most highly taxed part of the UK over the next
:14:43. > :14:45.four years. Next year alone the National decisions will happen if
:14:46. > :14:51.the 212 million on to the country's tax burden, a figure that will
:14:52. > :14:56.increase every year until 2020. The UK Government is already on track to
:14:57. > :15:00.double the personal allowance for income tax lifting millions out of
:15:01. > :15:04.paying income tax altogether at helping the lowest paid. But SNP
:15:05. > :15:10.want to see taxpayers in Scotland hit with higher charges than the
:15:11. > :15:13.rest of the UK. Because of the interaction with national insurance
:15:14. > :15:16.this means that the marginal rate of Scottish workers earning just above
:15:17. > :15:21.the high rate threshold will become 52% of their income. Treating a
:15:22. > :15:27.clear tax differential with the rest of the UK. The SNP approach may be
:15:28. > :15:31.understandable if this change to personal taxation was going to raise
:15:32. > :15:35.hundreds of millions of pounds. But in the first year of operation the
:15:36. > :15:41.maximum sum likely to be raised is just ?130 million. Is it really
:15:42. > :15:44.worked for that sum of money sending out a message that Scotland is an
:15:45. > :15:46.expensive place to live and work and the business?
:15:47. > :15:48.Unemployment has increased in Scotland - while it fell
:15:49. > :15:53.Official figures show the number of people out of work in Scotland
:15:54. > :15:54.between August and October rose by 14,000.
:15:55. > :15:57.But with more temporary jobs out there in the run-up to Christmas,
:15:58. > :16:07.our Business Correspondent David Henderson has more.
:16:08. > :16:19.The rate is now higher than the UK rate. Scotland used to be lower, now
:16:20. > :16:26.we have a higher unemployment rate, 5.3% compared to 4.8% for the UK as
:16:27. > :16:33.a whole. It is off the back of this rise in unemployment and falling
:16:34. > :16:37.employment. Unemployment up 14,000 by August and October, and it fell
:16:38. > :16:44.across the UK as a whole and the other unwelcome news, employment,
:16:45. > :16:51.the number of people working in the economy, down by 40,000. That is the
:16:52. > :16:58.third fall for employment in three months in a row, so not great news
:16:59. > :17:02.and of course it comes on the back of disappointing projections about
:17:03. > :17:08.whether Scottish economy is going to be next year,... Running at one
:17:09. > :17:12.third of the level of the UK. A lower rate indeed so concerned that
:17:13. > :17:15.we are already seeing... There is a elephant in the room which is what
:17:16. > :17:19.happened to the island gas industry and it is not that surprising in
:17:20. > :17:25.Scotland that we are doing relatively less well than the UK
:17:26. > :17:29.average. Yes if you look at the two men this loss of jobs that we have
:17:30. > :17:37.seen of the course of the oil price fell it is easy to understand why
:17:38. > :17:43.Scotland is in the situation, we are far more reliant on the oil sector
:17:44. > :17:45.jobs than the UK as a whole. That provided tremendous track and jobs
:17:46. > :17:49.are still being lost at a read of knots. In the north-east
:17:50. > :17:53.particularly, thousands of jobs lost every month with no real sign that
:17:54. > :17:57.that is going to change any time soon and as long as that is the case
:17:58. > :18:03.it is going to be this tremendous, tremendous like, to murder Spool on
:18:04. > :18:10.the Scottish economy it will dampen growth and dampened operation as
:18:11. > :18:13.well. What is new is that what you are telling us about is directly
:18:14. > :18:18.related to what we have been talking about empowerment, because it now
:18:19. > :18:22.matters how many people are in the labour force, how many unemployed
:18:23. > :18:28.because suddenly will not suddenly but much more people than before,
:18:29. > :18:32.the tax take in Scotland matters. You're right, it is worth
:18:33. > :18:35.remembering where we are and why it is so important for the Scottish
:18:36. > :18:40.budget tomorrow, the backdrop is that the way our public services
:18:41. > :18:45.here in Scotland are being funded is changing. The fiscal powers of the
:18:46. > :18:51.Scottish parliament are changing. We're going to have upwards of 40%
:18:52. > :18:56.of devolved spending funded by tax revenue collected in Scotland. Once
:18:57. > :19:00.the VAT revenue is assigned to holiday the figure will be owned 50%
:19:01. > :19:04.so as we look to the future the Scottish Government budget is not
:19:05. > :19:08.going to be reliant on the block grant, that great White of cash were
:19:09. > :19:14.just had heard from the Treasury and spent in Scotland, instead we are in
:19:15. > :19:18.a position where the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government
:19:19. > :19:23.are having to make much tougher decisions on how they raise revenue
:19:24. > :19:24.because that tax, there will be a direct relationship between the
:19:25. > :19:30.Scottish parliament... There is a fudge on that for five years but
:19:31. > :19:33.spell out what this means, in the long-term, if the economy takes a
:19:34. > :19:38.nosedive in Scotland but not elsewhere in the UK and the tax take
:19:39. > :19:42.from income tax falls that this becomes less money for the Scottish
:19:43. > :19:47.Government to spend and eventually it will not simply be made up by
:19:48. > :19:53.more money coming in from London. Young sum that up. The more revenue
:19:54. > :19:58.raised in Scotland means the more complex the debate takes place. Off
:19:59. > :20:05.the back of that. Because if you have a situation where problems in
:20:06. > :20:09.public services are simply solved by asking Westminster for more money
:20:10. > :20:12.that does not change the debate here at all, what is happening here
:20:13. > :20:17.instead is we will have an increasingly focused debate on how
:20:18. > :20:22.tax revenue is raised, how money is spent on public services in giving
:20:23. > :20:26.us the best value for money, discussions about as we heard the
:20:27. > :20:32.about income tax, discussions about the balance between where income
:20:33. > :20:37.tax... If the economy does better than the rest of the UK entrance
:20:38. > :20:41.road. That is right in that the issues around generating growth in
:20:42. > :20:46.the Scottish economy become really important because if growth lags
:20:47. > :20:49.behind the UK as a whole there is a downside for Scotland, and the
:20:50. > :20:54.Scottish Government will now have to look at every one of its taxation
:20:55. > :20:57.and spending decisions through that prison, they will ask what impact
:20:58. > :20:59.will this have on Scottish growth not just now but in years to come.
:21:00. > :21:00.Thank you. The Scottish Government will meet
:21:01. > :21:03.Amazon bosses in the next week, as MSPs raised concerns
:21:04. > :21:05.about working conditions at The site attracted attention last
:21:06. > :21:08.week, as people were camping in freezing conditions
:21:09. > :21:11.so they could be near to their work. The company has received Scottish
:21:12. > :21:14.Government grants in the past. The Economy Secretary Keith Brown
:21:15. > :21:17.said he was concerned about the reports and would meet
:21:18. > :21:29.the company in the next week. It is important that all employees
:21:30. > :21:32.in all workplaces are treated fairly and the Scottish Government is doing
:21:33. > :21:35.everything it can within its powers to drive up employment standards and
:21:36. > :21:42.from what good working practices with the powers available to us.
:21:43. > :21:47.Report about camping outside the centre, an undercover reporter have
:21:48. > :21:53.lifted the lid on Amazon. In one case the company penalised a worker
:21:54. > :21:58.for being in hospital with a kidney infection. The Scottish Government
:21:59. > :22:03.paid almost ?1 million to Amazon last year, even though it did not
:22:04. > :22:08.pay all of its workers the real living wage. Can the Minister ruled
:22:09. > :22:16.out paying, is an any more grants in future? The grants which previously
:22:17. > :22:20.awarded to Amazon have been paid on the conditions attached to them been
:22:21. > :22:24.fulfilled, it is also true to say that of course those grounds go back
:22:25. > :22:29.many years to 2005. I would also say that I am concerned about the
:22:30. > :22:32.reports over the weekend, my office has been in touch with Amazon and
:22:33. > :22:37.we're working on establishing a meeting to take place within the
:22:38. > :22:41.next seven days so these issues can be raised. These matters of concern
:22:42. > :22:44.to the Scottish Government and are indeed a concern to anyone. It is
:22:45. > :22:48.important we do what we can. We do not have the powers in terms of
:22:49. > :22:51.either the living wage or in terms of other employment laws which allow
:22:52. > :22:55.us to take the action we would like to take, we would like to legislate
:22:56. > :22:59.for a living wage and have said that on many occasions. In the absence of
:23:00. > :23:03.that we can make representations and is on it clear how we find these
:23:04. > :23:07.practices are unacceptable and that is what will happen over the course
:23:08. > :23:12.of the next few days. I'm afraid the Minister has ducked my question.
:23:13. > :23:19.When I raised this with the First Minister before on numerous
:23:20. > :23:22.occasions she previously sent someone to the is an plant. What
:23:23. > :23:27.happened? Did she tell them they would receive more grants and if not
:23:28. > :23:30.why not? It is about time the government gives some clarity on
:23:31. > :23:37.whether it will give Amazon grants in future. And just said to Willie
:23:38. > :23:41.Rennie we have no outstanding grant proposals for further grounds for
:23:42. > :23:44.Amazon, we have no intention of providing further grounds not least
:23:45. > :23:47.in the absence of any application. The applications which are made in
:23:48. > :23:52.the conditions attached to them have been fulfilled. The grants are paid
:23:53. > :23:54.as were the grants paid by the previous administration under the
:23:55. > :23:58.Liberal Democrats and Labour Party, the same conditions I would imagine
:23:59. > :24:01.in that time as well. It is very important that we do what they can
:24:02. > :24:06.to bring jobs to Scotland which is the purpose of these grants and it
:24:07. > :24:09.is very potent that we promote the work and practices and that will be
:24:10. > :24:15.the focus of the meeting I have Amazon in the coming days. The
:24:16. > :24:22.Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the Mac have a value of 280 billion.
:24:23. > :24:25.Yet they pay very little tax. They get employees to opt out of the
:24:26. > :24:28.working Time directive to get the job and as we or they heard the
:24:29. > :24:32.threatened workers with the sack if they are off sick. They pay so
:24:33. > :24:36.little that staff are camping to avoid travel costs. I understand
:24:37. > :24:40.what the Cabinet Secretary is saying about grants being given to hammers
:24:41. > :24:45.on past, but can I ask him, Treaty review conditions that apply to any
:24:46. > :24:48.regional select -- selective assistance or other grants given by
:24:49. > :24:53.the guy in to future companies, not just Amazon, but indeed all of them
:24:54. > :24:58.to reflect the working practices. , but I would say is that it would be
:24:59. > :25:01.the case that we would want to continue to look at each application
:25:02. > :25:05.made on its merits and the reason I say that is because Jackie Baillie
:25:06. > :25:09.will now finally our foundation go about work they will often work with
:25:10. > :25:12.companies that don't pay a living wage and the idea, the belief and
:25:13. > :25:18.hope that they can encourage P 11 which... What steps is the Cabinet
:25:19. > :25:21.Secretary taking to ensure that Amazon is in compliance with
:25:22. > :25:25.existing employment laws of leaders have the power to create new ones,
:25:26. > :25:30.what steps are you taking to ensure they are in compliance?
:25:31. > :25:33.I did not mention and listen to Jackie Baillie spike, we have no
:25:34. > :25:37.powers in relation to tax-raising on these companies. The a mystery as I
:25:38. > :25:44.mentioned already in terms applying the law, I have mentioned this to
:25:45. > :25:48.Amazon and of course the practices are things were looking up at which
:25:49. > :25:50.we'll review, not only in relation to the pressure we have had over the
:25:51. > :25:53.course of the weekend. Now let's speak to some
:25:54. > :25:54.MSPs at Holyrood. I'm joined by Gillian Martin
:25:55. > :25:57.for the SNP, the Conservatives' Alexander Burnett, Daniel Johnson
:25:58. > :26:10.from Labour, and Mark Alexander, you're having a debate on
:26:11. > :26:15.tax and how dreadful it is to have different thresholds for the 40p
:26:16. > :26:21.rate in Scotland than in England. Did you win? I think so. People in
:26:22. > :26:25.Scotland understand that while we are hoping that by killing people at
:26:26. > :26:29.the bottom of the tax rate across the UK, the people that are being
:26:30. > :26:32.punished and have someone is -- in Scotland is ending the same as
:26:33. > :26:35.someone in England but paying hundreds of pounds more taxes will
:26:36. > :26:40.act as a disincentive to people staying in Scotland. We need every
:26:41. > :26:43.taxpayer we can get to deliver the services we want. But you would
:26:44. > :26:48.accept the differences so slight that it is unlikely to send droves
:26:49. > :26:53.of better off people in Scotland south of the border. That is
:26:54. > :26:57.debatable. Companies like Johnson and Carmichael who very much have
:26:58. > :27:01.the finger to the polls on such matter advise differently. If we
:27:02. > :27:05.have a Scottish supplement charge is what they're calling it, then will
:27:06. > :27:09.suddenly take that into account. We need to make sure people want to
:27:10. > :27:13.come and work in Scotland and if there is any disincentive however
:27:14. > :27:18.small that is going to create friction in the market. Gillian, the
:27:19. > :27:22.argument against what you're doing an thresholds is even if we accept
:27:23. > :27:27.that it is unlikely to drive many people south of the border it is the
:27:28. > :27:32.symbolism of it. The fact that the Scottish Government get these new
:27:33. > :27:35.powers and the first thing it does is make better people in Scotland
:27:36. > :27:41.were soft and they will be in England. I don't think you can run a
:27:42. > :27:44.government on symbolism and just because you have powers doesn't mean
:27:45. > :27:50.to say that you should be using them to actually penalised the low and
:27:51. > :27:53.middle income earners, which make up the bulk of the population in
:27:54. > :27:58.Scotland. As you rightly say, the difference it would make in raising
:27:59. > :28:04.tax for the higher earner people would actually be minimal so we have
:28:05. > :28:07.actually put on measures to make sure the majority of people in
:28:08. > :28:12.Scotland are not paying more tax, maintain percent. The bulk of people
:28:13. > :28:16.here. I don't think that people do leave a country to go to another one
:28:17. > :28:21.because of a little bit of extra income tax. But the revenues from
:28:22. > :28:25.this are very minimal. Given that he had just told us that there is no
:28:26. > :28:29.point in running a government on symbolism, given that the revenues
:28:30. > :28:33.are so minimal, aren't due in fact entirely running of policy on
:28:34. > :28:40.symbolism? It is not raising revenue at all. We're putting... How much is
:28:41. > :28:46.a raise? We're putting this money into infrastructure spend. How much.
:28:47. > :28:51.I don't have the figures to hand, I am standing in the lobby without any
:28:52. > :28:59.notes. It does not raise any extra money. In your earlier point in
:29:00. > :29:04.talking about how people are, the government, it is a bad win for
:29:05. > :29:10.Scotland is less money is raised but actually what we have to look at is
:29:11. > :29:13.what we're doing in terms of to make Scotland a more viable as an
:29:14. > :29:20.economy. You are not doing anything in terms of yes we are. By not
:29:21. > :29:24.attending the tax threshold does not raise any extra money, it means that
:29:25. > :29:28.you don't have to find the money to pay for it in the way they have two
:29:29. > :29:34.in England. It is not as simple as that. It is. We have government
:29:35. > :29:39.spend on infrastructure and the small business bonus is a more
:29:40. > :29:43.effective way of getting people to keep one of their earnings and
:29:44. > :29:49.encourage investment in Scotland and small businesses in Scotland and the
:29:50. > :29:51.majority of businesses in Scotland are small to medium enterprises.
:29:52. > :29:56.That money into that kind of scheme is a wiser thing to do economically.
:29:57. > :30:01.I'd Mac David Johnson, users want to put everyone's taxes up. We have
:30:02. > :30:09.just had the temerity of SNP on tax, this is a party that campaigned long
:30:10. > :30:13.against Tory austerity and whether given the opportunity to do
:30:14. > :30:18.something about it, don't. It is very disappointing to hear these
:30:19. > :30:23.things coming from SNP. Surely as the Labour Party, with the point I
:30:24. > :30:27.made to Julie, no sooner has the Scottish Parliament received new
:30:28. > :30:32.powers than it lacks taxes are on the better off. It is the symbolism
:30:33. > :30:37.of that four people perhaps looking to set up businesses in Scotland who
:30:38. > :30:42.could equally set up in the north of inland. The reality of the situation
:30:43. > :30:48.is this, because of the cuts we have seen tens of thousands of workers
:30:49. > :30:51.taken away from the front line services, we have seen 4000 less
:30:52. > :30:55.teachers in schools, less care workers, that is the reality of what
:30:56. > :31:00.happens when you pass down Tory cuts like we're getting from the Scottish
:31:01. > :31:04.Government. Labour say we value the public service is, use the powers we
:31:05. > :31:06.have to protect those jobs and protect the vital services which
:31:07. > :31:13.ultimately are vital for the future of our economy.
:31:14. > :31:25.You presumably agree with the SNP on the threshold for the 40p rate,
:31:26. > :31:30.right is growing absolutely absolutely. This will have no effect
:31:31. > :31:35.whatsoever on people thinking of setting up businesses in Scotland?
:31:36. > :31:38.There have been lots of studies on what deferential income tax-free
:31:39. > :31:41.stew or do not do. They are established in places like the
:31:42. > :31:49.States, people live where they want to live where they have good public
:31:50. > :31:53.services. That is what we will do with our tax proposals. Martin
:31:54. > :32:00.Roscoe, can you outbid Labour and putting up our taxes? I hope the
:32:01. > :32:05.Greens will have a policy that is smarter. We wanted to reduce tax
:32:06. > :32:09.whilst increasing it progressively for those on the highest wages. You
:32:10. > :32:14.know, we've got these new powers in the Scottish Parliament, it's time
:32:15. > :32:17.we started to use them. The Tories voted for these powers as well, now
:32:18. > :32:21.they are saying we shouldn't use them. I'm not worried about
:32:22. > :32:25.tokenism, I'm worried about the cuts we are seeing now in public
:32:26. > :32:29.services, particularly in councils. Remind us what you want to do? What
:32:30. > :32:40.we'd like to see is a much higher top rate of tax. 50p? 43% kicking in
:32:41. > :32:46.at ?43,000. Our tax proposals mean anybody earning less than ?26,000
:32:47. > :32:50.per year would pay less. That is a smarter approach than Labour. We
:32:51. > :32:54.have huge disparities in wealth in our society. It will only get bigger
:32:55. > :32:56.because of the kind of austerity-lite cuts to welfare
:32:57. > :33:00.benefits that the Tories are putting throughout Westminster, we need the
:33:01. > :33:05.-- the need to be bold. We can raise money to invest in the
:33:06. > :33:09.infrastructure that Gillian and all of us want, but we can also invest
:33:10. > :33:13.in our public services that protect the bug report and provide
:33:14. > :33:16.additional support for young people in our schools, -- protect the
:33:17. > :33:21.vulnerable. We have seen massive amounts of cuts in recent years in
:33:22. > :33:24.this area. Some cuts have been efficiency savings, but now the
:33:25. > :33:27.public is starting to realise that the cuts to front line services are
:33:28. > :33:32.going to damage everybody in society, particularly the is run. By
:33:33. > :33:39.Alexander Burnett, they all disagree with you. They all wrong, and only
:33:40. > :33:45.you write? There is no surprise, and the irony of Gillian denying the
:33:46. > :33:51.symbolism will not have been lost on those voting to stay in the UK. The
:33:52. > :33:55.point is... Hang on, you are playing with symbolism as well, Alexander
:33:56. > :33:59.Burnett, you do know it makes very little difference in practical terms
:34:00. > :34:03.so you are just making gay symbolic stance by saying, oh, no, we can't
:34:04. > :34:09.have any tax increases for the a rough -- making a symbolic stance. I
:34:10. > :34:13.don't think it is embolic. A lot of companies like mine in the
:34:14. > :34:17.north-east, companies like BP and oil sector companies who employ
:34:18. > :34:22.people north and south of the border, are going to have different
:34:23. > :34:26.payroll and tax regimes. Are you saying the Tories or against ever
:34:27. > :34:29.varying tax between North and south of the border? Because I thought
:34:30. > :34:33.official Scottish Conservative policy was to say that we might call
:34:34. > :34:37.for lower income tax rates in England in the future, as and when
:34:38. > :34:46.we can afford it, or did I misunderstand what Ruth Davidson and
:34:47. > :34:49.others have been saying? No,. At all, we will certainly consider that
:34:50. > :34:50.in the future. You have just said you don't want any differential
:34:51. > :34:53.rates between Scotland and England. We are talking about the budget
:34:54. > :34:57.tomorrow. You are saying it will be a bad idea, you can't say it will be
:34:58. > :35:00.a bad idea to have differential rate and back differential rates
:35:01. > :35:04.tomorrow, but not in a few months' time when we are cutting income tax
:35:05. > :35:08.in Scotland. My view is that the rates should be the same. Oh, how
:35:09. > :35:12.interesting. My personal view is that the rates should be the same. I
:35:13. > :35:15.know that is what the party is considering putting forward
:35:16. > :35:20.tomorrow. In the future we will look to review that. I would be happy
:35:21. > :35:25.with that, too. Gillian Martin, did you give us a reasonable explanation
:35:26. > :35:30.of why public spending in Scotland is about 15% per capita higher than
:35:31. > :35:35.the UK average, given that we already spend 15% more for every
:35:36. > :35:38.person in Scotland in public services, why do our taxes, or the
:35:39. > :35:43.taxes is in some people in Scotland, have to go up so that we can spend
:35:44. > :35:47.even more than that? As you pointed out, 99% of people in Scotland are
:35:48. > :35:51.not going to be paying any extra income tax. Yet as you rightly say,
:35:52. > :35:55.we have more spend per head on public services. People are talking
:35:56. > :35:59.about the cuts. Shouldn't the SNP government that so might be
:36:00. > :36:06.thinking, hang on, why is spending so way over the top? You think it is
:36:07. > :36:09.way over the top? A few people spending beside me save it should be
:36:10. > :36:13.more and we should be protecting our public services and I agree with
:36:14. > :36:16.them. We have invested heavily in our public services and we have to
:36:17. > :36:20.work with the budget we have been given. There has been a real terms
:36:21. > :36:25.cut to the Scottish budget from the UK Government, that is going to have
:36:26. > :36:30.to be reflected in what we spend. David Johnson, is that Labour's view
:36:31. > :36:35.as well, 15% more per per capita public spending in Scotland is fine.
:36:36. > :36:38.You lesson from that is that we should spend even more than the rest
:36:39. > :36:42.of the UK, doesn't it occur to anybody to say, perhaps we can
:36:43. > :36:45.improve efficiency in public spending in Scotland and make it the
:36:46. > :36:49.same as the rest of the UK and cut everybody's taxes? If you want to
:36:50. > :36:53.make the argument that we should be cutting money to schools, I'll let
:36:54. > :36:56.you do that. But I think we should be protecting that money. With
:36:57. > :37:01.respect to Gillian, if this is what we see when we have the SNP
:37:02. > :37:06.investing in public services... I'm not suggesting... Are you saying
:37:07. > :37:09.that it doesn't matter what the differential is in per capita spend?
:37:10. > :37:13.Let me finish the question, between Scotland and the rest of the UK, and
:37:14. > :37:17.in no circumstances would Labour ever say, hang on a minute, maybe we
:37:18. > :37:22.should think about more efficiency and getting our per capita spending
:37:23. > :37:25.on public services down? Forgive me, Gordon, but this is what devolution
:37:26. > :37:28.is all about. It is well established that we have a separate government
:37:29. > :37:30.and supper Parliament because we want to make different decisions for
:37:31. > :37:44.our public services. And that in turn means thinking about
:37:45. > :37:46.different levels of tax. We spend more per person on our schools. I
:37:47. > :37:49.think that's the right thing to do and we should be protecting it. That
:37:50. > :37:52.is why we should use the tax power. Even though England is now doing
:37:53. > :37:54.better than the Scottish education system? You want to spend more money
:37:55. > :37:58.even though they spend less and are doing better? When you look at the
:37:59. > :38:03.reality of wide our schools, we have had too many changes with the
:38:04. > :38:07.curriculum and qualifications. Last won the Mark Ruskell. You can see
:38:08. > :38:10.why, a lot of people watching this will think, these Scottish
:38:11. > :38:15.politicians, they debate in Lala land. A lot of people watching this
:38:16. > :38:18.will recognise the cuts that are coming through in the Rome local
:38:19. > :38:22.authorities. You raise an important point about public spending, we need
:38:23. > :38:27.to get the most out of the pound, that is why investment preventative
:38:28. > :38:32.spend, particularly in the health service, is the right way to go. By
:38:33. > :38:35.doing that in the long term we actually save public expenditure and
:38:36. > :38:38.of course we can then reinvest that in the areas where we really do need
:38:39. > :38:48.to reinvest. Thank you all very much indeed. I think we have invented a
:38:49. > :38:52.new Scottish Conservative policy impacts, haven't we? It was very
:38:53. > :38:58.revealing an interesting by all of them. That plays to a degree into
:38:59. > :39:00.the hands of the SNP. One of the SNP's wind against the Scottish
:39:01. > :39:06.Conservatives is, you don't want more devolved powers because you
:39:07. > :39:11.want everything the same as in England. I thought it was Tory Party
:39:12. > :39:15.policy that they would leave tax cuts open in the future. I'm pretty
:39:16. > :39:20.sure Ruth Davidson sat exactly where you are sitting and said, this is
:39:21. > :39:24.not the right time to do it. They have just decided on a new air
:39:25. > :39:27.passenger duty policy which is different from the policy in
:39:28. > :39:32.England, not income tax but still doing something with the tax powers.
:39:33. > :39:38.I'm not sure what will happen. An interesting conversation. I think
:39:39. > :39:42.so. Actually Mark Ruskell was the only person there who really was
:39:43. > :39:46.taking on board this thing about efficiency, wasn't he? There was a
:39:47. > :39:50.degree of consistency with the Green Party policy. Labour policy at the
:39:51. > :39:53.moment, I understand what Daniel Johnson is saying because that is
:39:54. > :39:56.the party policy, basically throw money at the problem. I can
:39:57. > :40:01.understand politically why that is the policy. It may not be the best
:40:02. > :40:04.time to do that, because as we have seen, Scottish school results in
:40:05. > :40:08.particular are pretty woeful and it doesn't depend on how much money
:40:09. > :40:12.goes into the system, it appears to be other drivers that are making it
:40:13. > :40:18.poor. That is certainly consistent with the Labour line. He is
:40:19. > :40:22.delivering what Labour are saying. You were suggesting the green policy
:40:23. > :40:26.was a bit wasn't as the gated? I think it's consistent. Perhaps it is
:40:27. > :40:30.easier to be consistent when you have a smaller number of MSPs. The
:40:31. > :40:34.green policy has been consistent at a very, very high level of tax for
:40:35. > :40:38.quite some time. I didn't see too much changing that. What we maybe
:40:39. > :40:41.didn't get into the with Barton has goal was just what level of tax were
:40:42. > :40:44.at because it is very substantially more than any of the other party's
:40:45. > :40:48.tax. Now to the last Prime Minister's
:40:49. > :40:50.Questions of the year, where the Labour leader,
:40:51. > :40:52.Jeremy Corbyn, pressed Theresa May He said an Age UK report suggested
:40:53. > :40:57.over a million elderly people were being short-changed of the care
:40:58. > :40:59.they needed, and asked Mrs May if she accepted there was now
:41:00. > :41:11.a social care crisis. Mr Speaker, social care is crucial.
:41:12. > :41:17.It provides support for people to live with dignity. Yet Age UK we
:41:18. > :41:23.searchers found that 1.2 million older people are currently not
:41:24. > :41:27.receiving the care that they need -- researchers. Will the Prime Minister
:41:28. > :41:31.accept that there is a crisis in social care? We recognise those
:41:32. > :41:34.pressures. That is why the Government is putting more money
:41:35. > :41:37.into social care through the Better Care Fund, by the end of this
:41:38. > :41:42.Parliament that will be billions of pounds extra. That is why we have
:41:43. > :41:45.enabled local authorities. We recognise there are immediate
:41:46. > :41:49.pressures on social care. That is why this will be addressed by my
:41:50. > :41:56.right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities
:41:57. > :41:57.and Local Government in the local government finance settlement
:41:58. > :42:00.tomorrow. We also recognise this is not just about money. It is about
:42:01. > :42:03.delivery. There is a difference in delivery across the country. We need
:42:04. > :42:07.to make sure that reform is taking place so that we see Best practice
:42:08. > :42:11.in terms of integration of health and social care across the country.
:42:12. > :42:17.But we also need to ensure that we have a longer term solution to give
:42:18. > :42:21.people the reassurance for the future that there is a sustainable
:42:22. > :42:24.system, that will ensure that they are receiving the social care that
:42:25. > :42:31.they need an old age. That is what the Government is working on. The US
:42:32. > :42:35.Government has just said, and I quote, systematic, in the Mick
:42:36. > :42:40.problem is in Saudi Arabia's targeting drove the US decision to
:42:41. > :42:45.halt a future weapons sale involving precision guided munitions. The
:42:46. > :42:50.Saudis have UK supplied precision guided pave way for missiles. They
:42:51. > :42:56.made in Scotland. The UK has licensed ?3.3 billion worth of arms
:42:57. > :43:00.to Saudi Arabia since the beginning of the bombing campaigns. What will
:43:01. > :43:06.it take for the UK to adopt an ethical foreign policy when it comes
:43:07. > :43:11.to Yemen? Well, as the right honourable gentleman is, the
:43:12. > :43:16.intervention in the UN, in Yemen, is a UN backed intervention. As I've
:43:17. > :43:19.said previously, where there are allegations of breaches of
:43:20. > :43:23.international humanitarian law then we require those to be properly
:43:24. > :43:27.investigated. We do have a relationship with Saudi Arabia. The
:43:28. > :43:32.security of the golf is important to us, and I would remind the right
:43:33. > :43:35.honourable gentleman that actually Saudi intelligence and
:43:36. > :43:39.counterterrorism links we have with Saudi Arabia, the intelligence we
:43:40. > :43:44.get is from Saudi Arabia as saved potentially hundreds of lives here
:43:45. > :43:46.in the UK. Can I tell the Prime Minister that a cross-party
:43:47. > :43:48.delegation led by the right honourable member the colon Valley
:43:49. > :43:55.will meet the Russian ambassador tomorrow. Morning on an elaborate.
:43:56. > :43:58.We will reflect an amplified precisely the sort of terms that she
:43:59. > :44:03.and the Foreign Secretary have used about Russia, the Assad regime, and
:44:04. > :44:08.Iran. Not least because we want to protect those who have heroically
:44:09. > :44:11.struggled to save lives in that city, who are now going to be at
:44:12. > :44:15.particular risk because of the witness they can give. But does she
:44:16. > :44:18.accept that many of us believe that those sort of messages are more
:44:19. > :44:23.cogent when we are equally unequivocal about the primacy of
:44:24. > :44:27.human rights and international humanitarian law when we meet the
:44:28. > :44:31.Gulf states? We do raise the issues of human rights when we meet the
:44:32. > :44:35.Gulf states. But he's absolutely right in relation to the role that
:44:36. > :44:39.Russia is playing in Syria. And there's a very simple message to
:44:40. > :44:43.President Putin, he has it within his own hands to be able to actually
:44:44. > :44:47.say to the Assad regime, that enough is enough in Aleppo, we need to
:44:48. > :44:50.ensure that humanitarian aid is there for people and the people who
:44:51. > :44:56.have, as the honourable gentleman said, been heroically saving the
:44:57. > :44:59.lives of others ensure that they have the security ensured. I'm sure
:45:00. > :45:02.that the message that he and others will be giving to the Russian
:45:03. > :45:06.ambassador. It is in the hands of President Putin. He can do it, why
:45:07. > :45:10.doesn't he? The Prime Minister knows that I and colleagues from all
:45:11. > :45:14.parties or is this House are keen to guarantee the rights of some 3
:45:15. > :45:19.million EU citizens in this country. This will be the largest
:45:20. > :45:21.administrative task that the Home Office has ever undertaken. The
:45:22. > :45:25.dying courage had to look at the report reduced by British futures,
:45:26. > :45:36.-- could dying courage to. It produced very practical suggestions.
:45:37. > :45:39.Well, I say to the honourable lady, I'm keen to ensure that we can
:45:40. > :45:43.protect the rights of EU citizens living here, but I'm also keen that
:45:44. > :45:47.UK citizens' writes for those who are living in the EU protected as
:45:48. > :45:50.well. The Home Secretary is aware of the proposals that have been put
:45:51. > :45:57.forward and are looking at them carefully. David Porter is back at
:45:58. > :46:02.Westminster. He is not in blazing sunshine, but he does have quite
:46:03. > :46:06.MPs. Busy day at Westminster. Without further ado, let me
:46:07. > :46:12.introduce you to our panel. Ian Black for the SNP, Lord Michael
:46:13. > :46:18.Bruce for the Liberal Democrats and Ian Murray from Labour. Mark Harper,
:46:19. > :46:20.let's pick up an issue that was raised in Prime Minister's
:46:21. > :46:24.Questions. It is devolved in Scotland but affects the UK as a
:46:25. > :46:28.whole. How is the UK Government and Scottish Government going to address
:46:29. > :46:32.the issue of getting decent social care for people, whether they be in
:46:33. > :46:33.Liverpool all the things that? I think obviously the announcement,
:46:34. > :46:37.the Prime Minister said the announcement will be made either
:46:38. > :46:40.Communities Secretary to about addressing some of the short-term
:46:41. > :46:44.funding pressures. She also suggested he would be setting out
:46:45. > :46:47.some plans for future reform. And the wombats been rumoured clearly is
:46:48. > :46:53.allowing local authorities to raise more money through the social care
:46:54. > :46:56.precepts. This is something we introduced by councils in England in
:46:57. > :47:00.enabling them to raise more money. We also have the Better Care Fund,
:47:01. > :47:03.encouraging the NHS and local government to raise more money
:47:04. > :47:07.together so that we get joined up care between the health and social
:47:08. > :47:10.care systems. Which I think is the long-term solution, getting those
:47:11. > :47:14.two systems to work seamlessly together. You mentioned a long-term
:47:15. > :47:17.solution whether you be in Eastbourne or Edinburgh. If you can
:47:18. > :47:22.have a long-term solution, you probably need more money and a
:47:23. > :47:25.political consensus. There seems to be precious little of either at the
:47:26. > :47:32.moment. The money issue, it is clearly the case for both the NHS
:47:33. > :47:37.and care system. People are living longer, there long-term pressures.
:47:38. > :47:41.And I think that's clear, and that I think we'll continue to be the case.
:47:42. > :47:44.We need a solution that continues to put more funding in, we will
:47:45. > :47:48.increase social care spending through this Parliament in real
:47:49. > :47:51.terms. Your point about making long-term changes, I'm not sure that
:47:52. > :47:55.you can get to a position where everybody agrees with each other.
:47:56. > :48:00.These are difficult questions. An attempt to try and get an all-party
:48:01. > :48:04.consensus has been made before and it didn't get if. We need to grapple
:48:05. > :48:08.with these issues and put in place a solution that will work in the long
:48:09. > :48:11.term and be sustainable. Your government is responsible for
:48:12. > :48:16.ensuring that social care works with the local authorities in Scotland.
:48:17. > :48:20.Are you convinced that the system is, to use that famous phrase we all
:48:21. > :48:24.use now in politics, little purpose in Scotland? Absolutely, I think we
:48:25. > :48:27.are a long way down the road of integration between health and
:48:28. > :48:31.social care in Scotland. The allocation of ?250 million
:48:32. > :48:34.additionally is going into social care. It is essential that we have
:48:35. > :48:38.health and social care working together. There is more work to be
:48:39. > :48:41.done to make sure that it is fit for purpose, that we can deal with the
:48:42. > :48:45.issue of this charge from patients from hospitals back into the
:48:46. > :48:49.community, even if that step up, step down, uses the powers of the
:48:50. > :48:53.NHS. We recognise the dog that is in front of us and getting this right.
:48:54. > :49:00.The investment has gone in, -- the job in front of us. We need to make
:49:01. > :49:04.sure that the workers are properly we sourced and paid, which is why we
:49:05. > :49:07.have the commitment for the National Living Wage, the real National
:49:08. > :49:11.Living Wage, not one but the Tories are trumpeting in England. We
:49:12. > :49:14.recognise the responsibilities that we have. We're in the process of
:49:15. > :49:17.making sure that we can get to a situation that the public will have
:49:18. > :49:22.faith and confidence in health and social care delivered in Scotland.
:49:23. > :49:26.Mentioned integration there. If you get integration, you start
:49:27. > :49:29.transferring funds from the health service to local councils. That's
:49:30. > :49:33.not actually putting in a huge amount of extra money, it is
:49:34. > :49:37.shifting the budgets, isn't it? We haven't put into extra money over
:49:38. > :49:41.all, we will continue to do that over the Parliament. Our budgets are
:49:42. > :49:44.constrained because it was the idiot Westminster. We recognise in real
:49:45. > :49:50.terms we have to put additional investment in the health of us --
:49:51. > :49:54.because of austerity at Westminster. Our waiting times have improved, but
:49:55. > :49:58.we recognise more has to be done. Malcolm Bruce, even though it is up
:49:59. > :50:01.to the Scottish Government and local authorities to administer social
:50:02. > :50:06.care, Ian Blackford is saying it is that place behind us which isn't
:50:07. > :50:09.giving enough money to? That is a standard SNP plea. This government
:50:10. > :50:13.has failed every indicator you can think of right across the board. A
:50:14. > :50:17.dysfunctional, incompetent government. This process of sharing
:50:18. > :50:22.it, the local councils are being squeezed. My own local council,
:50:23. > :50:25.which has an SNP led administration, is slashing support right across the
:50:26. > :50:31.board. They haven't got enough money and they are not able to do deliver.
:50:32. > :50:35.The money going away from health service, preventing people from
:50:36. > :50:38.getting into was Buttle, is not additional money it is moving the
:50:39. > :50:42.money from one but it to the other. The truth is, we do need a
:50:43. > :50:46.recognition that everybody needs to get together. It is a problem that
:50:47. > :50:49.isn't easy to solve and we shouldn't be complacent, but to pretend that
:50:50. > :50:53.the situation in Scotland is under better control than the south of the
:50:54. > :50:56.border is not true. And to say it has nothing to do with the Scottish
:50:57. > :51:06.Government is beyond belief. If you through more money at it, you could
:51:07. > :51:08.solve the problem? I do think it is just about money. It's about how you
:51:09. > :51:11.manage the funds and who takes the priority decisions. You get people
:51:12. > :51:13.who say, you are ready to be discharged from hospital, there
:51:14. > :51:16.isn't actually the partnership that provides the support. It's all very
:51:17. > :51:19.well to say that we want everybody to be paid better, which is true,
:51:20. > :51:23.which is why a lot of the providers are pulling out. But if that's the
:51:24. > :51:26.case, that is even more money to top up the wages weather is not enough
:51:27. > :51:32.even at the existing level at the moment. By the way, we have 33,000
:51:33. > :51:38.EU citizens in the care sector insult Scotland whose future or
:51:39. > :51:42.uncertain. Your party was in power for 30 years. You did reports on
:51:43. > :51:46.social care, but we still seem to be in the same position. Nobody is
:51:47. > :51:50.cracking get? It's incredibly difficult. Integration is the key.
:51:51. > :51:54.When you look at what has happened in terms of investment in the NHS
:51:55. > :51:57.and local authorities, by a local authority in Edinburgh completely
:51:58. > :52:01.removed that locking for a number of years. We heard from the Scottish
:52:02. > :52:04.Government -- ad blocking. The Scottish Government said that they
:52:05. > :52:08.would remove bed blocking but it has gone up. There is now 12% more
:52:09. > :52:12.elderly people with no care package whatsoever. That is your mothers and
:52:13. > :52:15.fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers, who are watching this
:52:16. > :52:21.programme. To merely shift the blame to somewhere else is a dereliction
:52:22. > :52:24.of duty. Because the SNP government in Scotland took the cuts from the
:52:25. > :52:29.Conservative government down here, double bump and pass them on the
:52:30. > :52:33.local authorities. Local authority budgets are decimated. We're going
:52:34. > :52:36.to see further decimation in the Scottish budget tomorrow. You can't
:52:37. > :52:40.run a health and social care system with no resource in, that is the key
:52:41. > :52:45.issue in Scotland. Quick final question to each of you. Mark
:52:46. > :52:49.Karpeles first. Do we need a Royal commission on social care that takes
:52:50. > :52:52.in the view is not just of Westminster that the devolved
:52:53. > :52:58.administrations as well as fellow I certainly think Westminster
:52:59. > :53:01.listening to the devolved administration it is a way of
:53:02. > :53:05.getting other people to deal with these questions. We need to continue
:53:06. > :53:10.integrating health and social care, which we are doing in both England,
:53:11. > :53:14.Wales and Scotland. We need to keep finding more money. We will increase
:53:15. > :53:18.the funding across this Parliament and obviously the relevant portions
:53:19. > :53:21.of that will obviously float of the Scottish Government. Do we need
:53:22. > :53:24.Westminster and the devolved administrations to take the politics
:53:25. > :53:28.out of this and talk about what people need rather than the politics
:53:29. > :53:32.of the decisions? I think that is what we have been doing. We have a
:53:33. > :53:35.first-class relationship with health professionals. We don't have the
:53:36. > :53:39.troubles we have seen in England with the junior doctors and so on.
:53:40. > :53:43.When you see that the SNP has been elected, it has the faith and trust
:53:44. > :53:47.of the Scottish people, but the Liberals and Labour Party want to
:53:48. > :53:50.have a go at us and delivery, will recognise improvements are to be
:53:51. > :53:57.made, but there have been improvements made in this lifetime
:53:58. > :54:00.of this government and will continue to do so. Do we need to try and take
:54:01. > :54:03.this out of politics to sort this problem once and for all? There are
:54:04. > :54:05.issues in the whole of the whole service which could be better looked
:54:06. > :54:08.at objectively, but we haven't got time to wait four years for another
:54:09. > :54:10.commission to report. We did have a commission on this particular issue
:54:11. > :54:13.which had some sensible recommendations which haven't been
:54:14. > :54:17.implemented. My worry is that it would slow down the need to take
:54:18. > :54:20.action, which is becoming critically urgent. We do need to take the
:54:21. > :54:31.politics out of some of these big issues because there are big
:54:32. > :54:34.decisions to be made. But what we can't have is a government which at
:54:35. > :54:36.the gates was months ability for education, health and social care.
:54:37. > :54:39.They say, people elected us and that's your lot. That's simply not
:54:40. > :54:41.good enough. We are making the case for more investment so we can get
:54:42. > :54:44.investment in social care. We have not got older people stuck in
:54:45. > :54:47.hospital with no care package. Thank you very much for joining us this
:54:48. > :54:50.afternoon. Gordon, that was our final discussion because that was
:54:51. > :54:54.the final prime ministers Question Time of the year. We'll let this
:54:55. > :54:57.will go away now and we will be back next week.
:54:58. > :55:00.Let's get some final thoughts from Andy.
:55:01. > :55:08.Social care is the big one. We heard about politicians putting taxes up.
:55:09. > :55:13.If you want to sort this one out, right across the UK, money is going
:55:14. > :55:18.to have to be found from somewhere? I think people accept privately, it
:55:19. > :55:21.is different publicly in politics, but privately people accept that the
:55:22. > :55:25.NHS is in serious trouble. Really the only way to do something about
:55:26. > :55:32.the money side or to do something about for the NHS does. Either the
:55:33. > :55:37.NHS has to start doing last, -- less or it has defined more money. It is
:55:38. > :55:40.likely to be through some form of copayment system. People are going
:55:41. > :55:43.to have to accept the fact that the fundamentals of the NHS will have to
:55:44. > :55:48.change because demographic is just mean there is no other option. It is
:55:49. > :55:53.just impossible to accept that in 50 years' time it will look like it
:55:54. > :55:57.does, it just can't. What do you mean, if people are ill, the NHS
:55:58. > :56:00.will still take care of them. What about people you are elderly, who
:56:01. > :56:04.could be released from hospital, who are being blocked in beds because
:56:05. > :56:09.there is no care package for them. That care package would have to be
:56:10. > :56:13.financed how? Well, I think it is all part of the same problem. That's
:56:14. > :56:17.what a lot of internal discussions are at the moment, within the
:56:18. > :56:21.medical community to a degree but also within politics, how you
:56:22. > :56:25.actually manage a system from cradle to grave to make sure that
:56:26. > :56:29.everything can be right for a long time. The demographic problem is a
:56:30. > :56:32.difficult one to get away from without having some very frank
:56:33. > :56:36.conversations. The notion of taking this out of politics is a very good
:56:37. > :56:40.one, but politicians don't going to have to solve the problem at the end
:56:41. > :56:44.of the day. It is very difficult to see a situation with demographics as
:56:45. > :56:48.we are, we can go one in the way that we fund it. I don't think that
:56:49. > :56:52.substantially higher taxes will be palatable for the electorate. And
:56:53. > :56:56.this is in addition to the pension issues. To some extent, you can
:56:57. > :57:00.solve the pension issue just by raising the retirement age. That
:57:01. > :57:09.saves huge amounts. But this care issue is something that is going to
:57:10. > :57:12.become an increasing problem as we all get older and live longer. It
:57:13. > :57:14.will. You have highlighted the other issue, the unspoken issue really is
:57:15. > :57:17.pensions. The whole make-up of pensions will have the substantially
:57:18. > :57:20.change as well because it is also the other thing, I think privately
:57:21. > :57:24.people accept it is pretty unsustainable. But it is slightly
:57:25. > :57:28.easier to solve with retirement age, raising. This one is much more
:57:29. > :57:32.difficult, and much more emotive as well. It's not easy to three way out
:57:33. > :57:36.of that. You say there would have to be some sort of insurance scheme,
:57:37. > :57:40.except it would be old age insurance, as it were. We have the
:57:41. > :57:43.look about our borders. We are very poor at looking at what other
:57:44. > :57:45.countries do and accepting that sometimes they might other do things
:57:46. > :57:48.differently. Join us for First Minister's
:57:49. > :57:50.Questions tomorrow, and the Scottish Draft Budget
:57:51. > :57:52.announcement on BBC2 The challenges and pressures
:57:53. > :58:05.facing local councils I want to be the one that helps
:58:06. > :58:08.and supports people See life in Fife, under Scotland's
:58:09. > :58:14.third-largest local authority. I'm in a rut,
:58:15. > :58:17.I can't get forward at all.