:00:16. > :00:20.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:20. > :00:23.programme: As a row rages over Alex Salmond's comments about judges and
:00:23. > :00:26.lawyers, the Scottish Government's plans for justice are laid out in
:00:26. > :00:29.parliament. Mixed figures on the job front.
:00:29. > :00:32.We'll hear from the Finance Secretary.
:00:32. > :00:40.And Labour's Ed Miliband tries to come out fighting at Prime
:00:40. > :00:43.Minister's Questions after Good afternoon. The First Minister
:00:44. > :00:47.had launched a scathing attack on one of Scotland's most experienced
:00:47. > :00:50.judges, a leading defence solicitor and the Scotsman newspaper. The
:00:50. > :00:53.interview was in the latest edition of the Holyrood magazine and
:00:53. > :00:57.centred round the recent row over the Supreme Court's role in
:00:57. > :01:00.Scottish criminal cases. Well, to discuss this further I'm now joined
:01:00. > :01:07.by Eddie Barnes, the Political Editor of Scotland on Sunday, which
:01:07. > :01:10.comes from the same stable as the Scotsman. Good afternoon. You were
:01:10. > :01:18.booked to come on the programme before we knew about the comments.
:01:18. > :01:24.Can you tell me what he was saying first of all? It is fascinating. He
:01:24. > :01:28.starts by saying that he has set up a commission which will almost be
:01:28. > :01:32.the umpire to decide on this and many carries on making his point
:01:32. > :01:39.about his complaints about the Supreme Court. He talked about the
:01:39. > :01:44.extreme decisions the Supreme Court has made about potentially allowing
:01:44. > :01:48.some of the vilest people out and then he goes on to talk about Tony
:01:49. > :01:56.Kelly making a comfortable living from what Kenny MacAskill had
:01:56. > :02:00.previously called ambulance chasing. It is a stoke up row that had a
:02:01. > :02:07.fire taken out of it as a result of the Commission. The interview took
:02:07. > :02:12.place about 10 days ago but it is stoked up again for having appeared
:02:12. > :02:17.now. He says, why would anyone buy the
:02:17. > :02:22.Scotsman? Are you surprised to see this level of attack? There was
:02:22. > :02:28.always a tension between newspapers and magazines -- politicians. We
:02:28. > :02:32.are here to scrutinise politicians. The Scotsman did back Alex Salmond
:02:32. > :02:40.for first minister not six weeks ago but it goes with the territory
:02:40. > :02:43.and we make no part - my apologies for scrutinising them. Do think the
:02:43. > :02:51.comments I in temper it? He is often controlled in public and
:02:51. > :02:56.keeps his emotions in check. Were you surprised at this level?
:02:56. > :03:01.Absolutely. He was particularly riled that morning and Holyrood
:03:01. > :03:05.magazine got him at a bad time. But it is surprising and doesn't play
:03:05. > :03:12.well in terms of trying to find a dispassionate answer to the
:03:12. > :03:17.problems raised. The SNB has good points to make but those have been
:03:17. > :03:21.obscured by the fact that we have a personal battle going on. Do think
:03:21. > :03:30.it was a mistake for him to make those comments? It is surprising
:03:30. > :03:38.that a man who has kept his comments so closely in check that,
:03:38. > :03:46.the journalist writing the article, says that he went in fighting and
:03:46. > :03:50.he lost the plot slightly? Do thing that was correct? It jars with the
:03:50. > :03:56.the mood music We have been given since the election which has been
:03:56. > :04:00.about carrying on governing almost as a minority government did,
:04:00. > :04:05.maintaining the humility of the previous administration but these
:04:05. > :04:13.comments almost seen ace - Maxine a sign of indiscipline, stoking up a
:04:13. > :04:19.fight for the sake of it. I can't see the purpose of it. It doesn't
:04:20. > :04:23.help the SNP course as far as I can see. We are just about to go to the
:04:24. > :04:28.Chamber to hear about the plans for justice and Kenny MacAskill will be
:04:28. > :04:35.speaking about the Supreme Court row. It has dominated over the last
:04:35. > :04:41.few weeks, hasn't it? Absolutely. I suspect it will dominate that
:04:41. > :04:46.debate this afternoon as well. Other issues will arise but maybe
:04:46. > :04:51.those will get an airing as well. The key issue is the anti-
:04:51. > :04:57.sectarian legislation and concerns that it was being rushed through?
:04:57. > :05:00.That could be a big issue. The mood music has come from the SNP that
:05:00. > :05:03.they will listen to the other parties even though they do not
:05:03. > :05:08.need to and they can push it through. There are signs from other
:05:08. > :05:16.parties that they are not happy about the way this is appearing to
:05:16. > :05:22.be pushed through at the end of Parliament. Christine Graham made a
:05:22. > :05:28.comment on the radio that she had her own concerns. It was almost the
:05:28. > :05:36.very first evidence of maybe a bit of a, not quite back bench
:05:36. > :05:41.rebellion, but a question of the programme. Christine Graham has a
:05:41. > :05:46.good track record over the last few more years. Let us see how it
:05:46. > :05:50.develops over the next few weeks. If there are signs that people want
:05:50. > :05:55.more scrutiny, there are questions as to why it does need to be pushed
:05:55. > :06:00.through quickly. Well the SNP follow upon the rest of -- rhetoric
:06:00. > :06:06.of listening even though it doesn't need to. That is one thing that was
:06:06. > :06:10.said today, the Liberal Democrat leader, said that Alex Salmond was
:06:10. > :06:15.making bulldozer comments enabled those of Parliament. He was
:06:15. > :06:22.expressing concern that the power had gone to his head. This is going
:06:22. > :06:27.back to the issue about the Supreme Court. If the parties are able to
:06:27. > :06:31.characterise him as being some kind of bulldozer, that can't be good
:06:31. > :06:36.for a government. People will be sceptical of an administration that
:06:36. > :06:43.he's using its power in a way that is seen to be arrogant, whether it
:06:43. > :06:49.is on not. Thanks for that. Letters go live to the chamber away Kenny
:06:49. > :06:55.MacAskill is about to kick off the debate on justice priorities.
:06:55. > :07:00.Andrew, this is another of the debates setting out the key
:07:00. > :07:05.priorities. We know the first priority for are the new laws to
:07:05. > :07:10.tackle sectarianism which have come under fire this week by the SNP
:07:10. > :07:14.convenor of the justice committee, Christine Graham, amongst others,
:07:14. > :07:19.saying the legislation should not be rushed. Kenny MacAskill is
:07:19. > :07:23.hoping to have this through by July for the start of the football
:07:23. > :07:28.season. The other issue that may come up to date is the row
:07:28. > :07:33.surrounding the first minister and his comments to Holyrood magazine.
:07:33. > :07:43.The presiding officer has just finishing up with her point of
:07:43. > :07:49.order before she called Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary....
:07:49. > :07:55.And now I think we can move on to the debate and hand over to Mr
:07:55. > :08:00.MacAskill. In 2007, we set out to be a
:08:00. > :08:05.stronger Scotland working with the police, prosecutors and prisons who
:08:05. > :08:08.made significant progress across the portfolio. Crime rates fell by
:08:08. > :08:14.if it and are now lower than they have ever been over the last 32
:08:14. > :08:20.years. There are 80,000 fewer crimes recorded by the police each
:08:20. > :08:26.year. Violent crime is down 11%, the lowest for 25 years. Serious
:08:26. > :08:31.assaults are down 14%, robberies down 16% and knife crime down by a
:08:31. > :08:36.third. We are on a journey to replace ineffective short sentences
:08:37. > :08:42.with tough community sentences. Domestic violence is falling but
:08:42. > :08:48.remains a major concern. Parliament legislated to modernise the law on
:08:48. > :08:55.civil protection orders against at -- domestic abuse and to close a
:08:55. > :08:58.loophole in breach of the peace. We are proud of that record and that
:08:58. > :09:05.the strategic direction reset is paying dividends. We are proud that
:09:05. > :09:09.the extra 1000 police officers is making Scott and safer. But we are
:09:09. > :09:15.not complacent and we know that there is a considerable journey
:09:15. > :09:20.still to travel. Now, in the second term of an SNP government, we will
:09:20. > :09:26.build on that progress and advance our agenda with determination and
:09:26. > :09:31.vigour. We will work with our justice partners, we will do the
:09:31. > :09:36.right thing for the people of Scotland and strive for an
:09:36. > :09:40.inclusive and respectful society. Last season, it was not a football
:09:40. > :09:46.season to remember and that is why we are taking immediate and
:09:46. > :09:51.decisive action. A Bill will be introduced soon that strengthens
:09:51. > :09:57.the law on sectarian and other offensive behaviour at football
:09:57. > :10:03.matches and out flaws threatening communications. This will give the
:10:03. > :10:08.police and fiscal clearer and tougher powers. At the same time,
:10:08. > :10:13.we are working with the police and football authorities to deliver the
:10:13. > :10:19.commitments agreed at the Football summit held in March. Along with
:10:19. > :10:26.the bill, this, we believe, will bring about lasting change. Let me
:10:26. > :10:33.be clear, races and, bigotry and sectarianism are not welcome here -
:10:33. > :10:37.- races am. We must look to the future and focus on how we can make
:10:37. > :10:44.Scotland there country we want it to be - an inclusive society where
:10:45. > :10:49.all members are excepted and able to flourish. Let me turn to the
:10:49. > :10:55.issue of knife crime. Over the last four years, we have made progress
:10:55. > :11:01.in tackling violence, gangs and knife crime. However, even one life
:11:01. > :11:08.lost to knife crime is one too many and just last weekend, two more
:11:08. > :11:13.young lives were tragically cut short in a knife related incidents.
:11:13. > :11:17.I offer my sincere sympathy to those who have lost loved ones to
:11:17. > :11:26.this horrific crime. There are fewer people carrying knives and
:11:27. > :11:32.those who do, more are being caught and they are being given longer
:11:32. > :11:38.sentences than ever before. I am clear that we all need to continue
:11:38. > :11:44.working in a United way to tackle Scotland's played culture wherever
:11:44. > :11:53.and however it occurs. Initiatives such as the Community initiative to
:11:53. > :11:57.reduce violence and are "no knives, better lives" can pain are
:11:57. > :12:01.equipping young people towards positive alternatives to violence
:12:01. > :12:06.and There are many local groups who work tirelessly to rid their
:12:06. > :12:11.communities of knife crime. We cannot and we will not let up in
:12:11. > :12:15.our collective efforts to stop violence in all its forms and we
:12:15. > :12:20.will continue to work with the Crown, the violence reduction Unit
:12:20. > :12:29.and other partners to tackle this issue and we look forward to
:12:29. > :12:33.working together, we hope, across the chamber. In our first term, we
:12:33. > :12:38.made dealing with organised criminal gangs a priority. Through
:12:38. > :12:43.the proceeds of crime Act, we took over �40 million from organised
:12:43. > :12:48.criminal gangs and caused significant disruption to their
:12:48. > :12:54.criminal activities. By recovering these significant sums of money, we
:12:54. > :12:59.were able to reinvest these resources to allow over 600,000
:12:59. > :13:06.young people to enjoy and benefit from a wide range of sporting,
:13:06. > :13:11.cultural and other youth activities. We remain committed to this and I
:13:11. > :13:16.hope previous support from other parties remains strong. We have to
:13:16. > :13:22.give an alternative out it to all our young people but we can do more.
:13:22. > :13:25.Currently, there is an annual limit of �30 million on money raised
:13:25. > :13:29.through the proceeds of crime legislation. We will open
:13:30. > :13:35.negotiations with the UK government to remove that limit so that all
:13:35. > :13:38.money seized from criminals can be invested did our -- in our
:13:38. > :13:43.communities. Previously, we had support from members in other
:13:43. > :13:47.political parties and we hope that will be replicated again. We were
:13:47. > :13:54.also it introduced new serious crime prevention orders to restrict
:13:54. > :14:00.the activities of those with known criminal connections in order to
:14:00. > :14:05.prevent serious organised crime and protect the public, especially hard
:14:05. > :14:14.working Scottish men and women. We will continue to support the police
:14:14. > :14:17.to disrupt and dismantle organised crime across Scotland. That support
:14:18. > :14:22.includes the Scottish crime campus which will bring together all the
:14:22. > :14:29.agencies responsible for tackling serious organised crime and we are
:14:29. > :14:34.on track for occupation to start next year. On youth justice, to
:14:34. > :14:39.tackle crime over the long term, we must reduce the number of young
:14:39. > :14:44.people coming into the justice system in the first place. We are
:14:44. > :14:49.doing that. The roll-out of barely effective intervention for young
:14:49. > :14:56.people across Scotland demonstrates an effective approach to addressing
:14:56. > :15:00.the offending behaviour of young people. A fence referrals to the
:15:00. > :15:06.Children's reporters are reducing year on year with a 40% reduction
:15:06. > :15:09.over the last four years and we welcome the actions taken by many
:15:09. > :15:14.local authority partners in terms of providing that early
:15:14. > :15:21.intervention and wrap around care that stops people coming into the
:15:21. > :15:26.system. We will continue to promote targeted and robust early
:15:26. > :15:34.interventions for all under 18th across Scotland. On police and fire
:15:34. > :15:44.reform, we have delivered and are proud of delivering an extra 1000
:15:44. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:53.police officers in to our Extra police to have been pivotal.
:15:53. > :15:57.We do face unprecedented Westminster cuts. We will continue
:15:57. > :16:03.to prove -- to improve and reform the way our public services are
:16:03. > :16:10.delivered and that must include the police and fire and rescue services.
:16:10. > :16:14.I spoke before we ended here for the collection and I indicated then
:16:14. > :16:19.that there was a broad consensus across the chamber, I think, apart
:16:19. > :16:23.from a small minority, that maintaining eight police forces and
:16:23. > :16:28.eight Fire and rescue services is unsustainable and that remains the
:16:28. > :16:32.same situation now. We will work and work for -- and look forward to
:16:32. > :16:37.working with colleagues to make sure we can deliver that reform and
:16:38. > :16:45.make sure that services are even more engaged and accountable to the
:16:46. > :16:51.diverse communities they serve. I made it clear in recent meetings
:16:51. > :16:57.that the case for a single force has strengthened, but there are
:16:57. > :17:02.legitimate concerns and worries that remained about centralisation,
:17:02. > :17:07.accountability and governance. We will seek, over the summer, to find
:17:07. > :17:11.answers to these concerns. I will return to the chamber in the autumn.
:17:11. > :17:16.It is not just police and fire and rescue services that will be
:17:16. > :17:23.reformed. We are determined to make our justice system more accessible,
:17:23. > :17:26.more affordable and quicker. We did feted in the last Parliament the
:17:26. > :17:33.recommendations made by Lord Gill and we will take forward those
:17:33. > :17:37.recommendations and seek to remove obstacles that hinder and inhibit
:17:37. > :17:41.access to justice. Justice must be available to everyone, irrespective
:17:41. > :17:46.of their wealth. We will seek to insure at the same time that legal
:17:46. > :17:51.aid is available to those who need it most and we will discuss with
:17:51. > :17:56.stakeholders how best to target resources. As with actions in the
:17:56. > :18:01.past Parliament, presiding officer, we again look forward to working
:18:01. > :18:05.with opposition parties on how we can best employment the reform.
:18:05. > :18:09.That is not a party political or ideologically driven matter, it is
:18:09. > :18:14.about rolling out work that is being carried out by one of our
:18:14. > :18:18.most senior judges, supported by a very many other able people and our
:18:18. > :18:24.look forward to continuing to work in that manner. The most important
:18:24. > :18:29.people, though, in the criminal justice system, are victims.
:18:29. > :18:34.Frequently they are forgotten. In our first term we made progress to
:18:34. > :18:44.rebalance the justice system in favour of victims and I again paid
:18:44. > :18:45.
:18:45. > :18:49.tribute to my former colleague the last lord advocate, she had driven
:18:49. > :18:55.that agenda forward. We are determined to build on that. We
:18:55. > :18:59.will introduce a victims' rights bill to enshrine in law a victim's
:18:59. > :19:07.right to damages and compensation and to give victims been booked
:19:07. > :19:11.into sentencing -- input into sentencing policy. We look forward
:19:11. > :19:16.to working with colleagues across the chamber as we progress these
:19:17. > :19:20.important reforms. They are vital. As with many things, the devil is
:19:20. > :19:23.in the detail and there are complexities within it. We would
:19:23. > :19:28.hope that we can share matters with opposition colleagues and seek to
:19:28. > :19:32.reach a consensus and agreement because I don't believe anybody in
:19:32. > :19:38.any party within first chamber it doesn't wish to progress the rights
:19:38. > :19:43.of victims when they are dealing with parole or sentences. Other
:19:43. > :19:46.matters also have to be addressed. The law of damages is one. Our
:19:46. > :19:52.ambition for Scotland is also about the framework of rights and
:19:52. > :19:56.obligations which make up a fair and just society. Parliament
:19:56. > :20:03.unanimously passed legislation to modernise the law and civil
:20:03. > :20:08.protection orders against domestic abuse and damages of wrongful death.
:20:08. > :20:13.Bill Butler and Rhoda Grant deserve credit for that. The damages
:20:13. > :20:16.registration should bring benefits, emotional and financial, for the
:20:16. > :20:21.victims and families, where negligence and a breach of duty of
:20:21. > :20:25.care results in premature death. I am pleased to tell Parliament that
:20:25. > :20:30.eight commencement order is being made shortly to bring this Act into
:20:30. > :20:37.force on the 7th July. We will build on that momentum with input
:20:38. > :20:40.from stakeholders, not least the reform for civil law. Not -- recent
:20:40. > :20:44.decisions from court have drawn attention to the way the Scotland
:20:44. > :20:49.Act explicitly subjected the Scottish criminal courts to London
:20:49. > :20:55.oversight. This was never intended, whether in the treaty of Union or
:20:55. > :20:59.the Scotland Act. Recently, these decisions have resulted in a hugely
:20:59. > :21:04.expensive changes to a criminal justice system. These were forced
:21:04. > :21:13.in Scotland, in contrast to other jurisdictions in Europe, an
:21:13. > :21:20.opportunity to put our case before the Court of Strasbourg. Conversely,
:21:20. > :21:27.the UK's Supreme course can intervene even in Scottish cases of
:21:27. > :21:33.no significance. Unlike in England, there is no mechanism went it has
:21:33. > :21:43.been certified. It is my view that Scottish courts should make the
:21:43. > :21:44.
:21:44. > :21:47.final decision. It requires careful and considered decisions. We will
:21:47. > :21:51.consider the roles of the courts and deliver options for reform.
:21:51. > :21:56.That group is at work. Presiding officer, taking Scotland Forward is
:21:56. > :22:01.about giving our young people the best chance to succeed in life. It
:22:01. > :22:05.is about protecting frontline services and doing what works.
:22:05. > :22:09.Making Scotland a safer and stronger place is an ambition we
:22:09. > :22:14.all share if we are up innovative, creative and to work collectively
:22:14. > :22:22.as a parliament, we can realise that ambition and help Scotland
:22:22. > :22:27.achieve its full potential. He did mention the UK Supreme Court
:22:27. > :22:33.and that issue has been exercising MPs at Westminster and is being
:22:33. > :22:37.discussed by David Porter. Next week, the Scotland Bill comes
:22:37. > :22:40.back to the fore of the House of Commons. What is known as the
:22:40. > :22:44.report and third readings. They will be read -- they will be
:22:44. > :22:49.dealing with proposed changes and eminence to the Supreme Court and
:22:49. > :22:55.also the issue of financial power of the Scottish Parliament has.
:22:55. > :23:00.Joining me are three Scottish MPs to discuss these issues. Cathy
:23:00. > :23:04.Jamieson from Labour and Malcolm from the Liberal Democrats. First
:23:04. > :23:10.of all, that spat that the First Minister seems to have got into
:23:10. > :23:13.with members of the Supreme Court, notably Lord Hope. What do you make
:23:13. > :23:17.of this? Is extraordinary and dangerous. It
:23:17. > :23:21.was childish and petulant on the first ministers part and not worthy
:23:21. > :23:24.of the minister. He compounded criticism that was already levelled
:23:24. > :23:28.at the Supreme Court by Kenny MacAskill. Where the you like
:23:28. > :23:31.judges or not, what we value enormously in this country is the
:23:31. > :23:35.independence of the judiciary and when ministers attacked them in a
:23:35. > :23:40.personal and abusive way, it brings into disrepute the separation
:23:40. > :23:43.between the political and legal institutions. I think for a newly
:23:43. > :23:47.elected SNP government with a majority, it sets a bad precedent
:23:47. > :23:51.and a dangerous turn. Is it not right that the First
:23:51. > :23:55.Minister should express his strong opinions?
:23:55. > :23:59.There is nobody saying that the First Minister should not vocalise
:23:59. > :24:03.concerns but this is an astonishing outburst from a First Minister. It
:24:03. > :24:09.is personalised and attacking a particular individual. It is going
:24:09. > :24:13.far beyond expressing concerns. What I am worried about is that
:24:13. > :24:16.actually the First Minister appears to be set on making an argument
:24:16. > :24:20.because of the geography of where the Supreme Court is located,
:24:20. > :24:23.rather than about justice for the people of Scotland. It is not good
:24:23. > :24:27.enough and not be coming of the First Minister.
:24:27. > :24:31.It is unbecoming of the First Minister to attack a serving judge?
:24:31. > :24:37.As I understand it, he is reiterating the case the Scottish
:24:37. > :24:42.government had made, which is the Supreme Court is second-guessing
:24:42. > :24:47.Scott and's High Court of Appeal, is doing something it is not meant
:24:47. > :24:50.to be. It is not an appeal court but is behaving like it. It is
:24:50. > :24:53.profoundly dangerous in terms of the independence of the Scottish
:24:53. > :24:57.judiciary. You disagree?
:24:57. > :25:01.I read the article which contains the First Minister's comment and he
:25:01. > :25:05.seems to be suggesting that the Supreme Court was interfering on a
:25:05. > :25:09.regular basis on cases of criminal appeal and I don't think there is
:25:09. > :25:12.any evidence to stack that up. The First Minister's attack seems to be
:25:12. > :25:17.that this court is based in London and he would rather people went to
:25:17. > :25:21.Strasbourg. That makes no sense to The point is that human rights law
:25:21. > :25:28.is actually a matter for the United Kingdom because we are the
:25:28. > :25:31.signatories. It is accountable to the court in Strasbourg. The appeal
:25:31. > :25:34.court is only determining human rights issues. Alex Salmond is also
:25:34. > :25:38.saying that he knows better than the Appeal Court what Strasbourg
:25:38. > :25:41.would say. If he does, maybe you should take the case to Strasbourg
:25:41. > :25:45.but he would realise that is expensive and it takes a long time.
:25:45. > :25:49.Ultimately, they will rule on the Human Rights judgement which Lord
:25:49. > :25:53.Hope believes he has the right on. Judges will disagree. Would you
:25:53. > :25:57.like the judges or not, ministers have to respect the independence of
:25:57. > :26:03.the law and the trouble with Alex Salmond and Kenny MacAskill is they
:26:03. > :26:07.are departing from that. Some people are confused that there
:26:07. > :26:13.is it I Court in London which has Scottish judges sitting on it, they
:26:13. > :26:18.are saying that they would rather take their complaint to Strasbourg.
:26:18. > :26:23.You have been able to go to Europe since 1954 if the House of Lords
:26:23. > :26:27.had already been breached. This was the final court of recourse in
:26:27. > :26:31.certain circumstances. That could happen after you had been to the
:26:31. > :26:34.High Court of Appeal in Scotland. As Martin described, we have
:26:34. > :26:38.another appeal court now. It was never designed to be an appeal
:26:38. > :26:40.court in terms of Scottish cases and I think it is wrong we have the
:26:40. > :26:45.Supreme Court behaving in the way it is.
:26:45. > :26:48.It is exactly that the House of Lords was before. People still have
:26:48. > :26:53.the right to go to Strasbourg or they can get a judgement in the UK
:26:53. > :26:56.which is cheaper and quicker. They can appeal that judgement to the
:26:56. > :27:00.Strasbourg court. It was designed to make judgments cheaper and
:27:00. > :27:03.further and I think Alex Salmond has got himself into a nationalist
:27:03. > :27:07.pressed about the location of the court which is not in the interest
:27:07. > :27:13.of the people of Scotland and if applied, will lead to more cost and
:27:13. > :27:17.delay. If the Scottish government are
:27:17. > :27:20.unhappy with what the Supreme Court decides, can they take that case to
:27:20. > :27:24.Strasbourg? That would be up to them to do that.
:27:24. > :27:34.Malcolm is right. The First Minister is using the Supreme Court
:27:34. > :27:36.
:27:36. > :27:40.and the courts in Scotland as a pawn in the game. I hope that he is
:27:40. > :27:43.paying as much attention to convictions in rape cases and
:27:43. > :27:47.convictions rights, ending automatic early release and dealing
:27:47. > :27:49.with a knife crime. The First Minister, according to
:27:49. > :27:55.your colleagues, is playing politics?
:27:55. > :27:58.We have heard the politics being played. My Labour friends see
:27:58. > :28:01.constitutional wranglings around every corner. This isn't a
:28:01. > :28:05.constitutional wrangling. It is the Scottish government saying that we
:28:05. > :28:10.have a Scottish High Court of Appeal, that should be the final
:28:10. > :28:13.determining court and there is no requirement for a UK based Supreme
:28:13. > :28:17.Court to be taking our decisions. Thank you.
:28:17. > :28:23.Somehow I think we may be hearing more about this argument.
:28:23. > :28:27.Thank you. Justice is that the top of the agenda in Holyrood today. We
:28:27. > :28:31.are joined by the Garden Lobby by eight Nigel Don who sat on the
:28:31. > :28:35.justice committee and Labour's James Kelly, the new deputy
:28:35. > :28:41.convener of that committee. Good afternoon.
:28:41. > :28:45.Nigel, very intemperate comments from the First Minister. Why is he
:28:45. > :28:49.making these comments now? I don't think I am here to comment
:28:49. > :28:54.on what the First Minister is saying word for word but I think I
:28:54. > :28:58.will reiterate that there is a real difficulty here that the Supreme
:28:58. > :29:03.Court is handing down judgments which are called human rights
:29:03. > :29:07.issues but which are actually a court of appeal which was never
:29:07. > :29:11.intended to deal with substantive issues which are not human rights
:29:11. > :29:15.issues. That is really what it is all about. It is another layer
:29:15. > :29:20.which has crept in and was never intended. We could all do without
:29:20. > :29:23.I appreciate you have a problem with the Supreme Court but do you
:29:23. > :29:28.think it's necessary for the First Minister to criticise one of the
:29:28. > :29:32.most repairs did -- one of the most respected judges?
:29:32. > :29:36.I am not here to comment on what the First Minister said. He is well
:29:36. > :29:39.capable of defending that comment and I think his comments are
:29:39. > :29:42.reflective of the different positions. One of the other things
:29:42. > :29:47.he was pointing out was that these legal decisions do have real
:29:47. > :29:50.political implications, they actually make life extremely
:29:50. > :29:53.difficult for governments. Maybe some of that needs to be reflected
:29:53. > :29:56.upon. James Kelly, when you were
:29:56. > :30:00.confirmed as the deputy convener of the justice committee yesterday,
:30:00. > :30:04.you raised a point that your brother is in fact Tony Kelly, the
:30:04. > :30:09.lawyer at the centre of the First Minister's critique. What does your
:30:09. > :30:13.brother make of these comments and what do you make of them yourself?
:30:13. > :30:18.My brother can answer for himself. In terms of Alex Salmond's comments
:30:18. > :30:23.in relation to Lord Hope, I think they are ill judged. The SNP are
:30:23. > :30:28.trying to use this issue as a battering ram to push their
:30:28. > :30:31.independence agenda. What we should be doing today as we have justice
:30:31. > :30:37.at the forefront of the Scottish Parliament is to look at the issues
:30:37. > :30:42.come for turning -- concerning victims and communities across
:30:42. > :30:45.Scotland, like my crime and anti- social behaviour. I think that is
:30:45. > :30:49.what the new justice team should be concentrating on.
:30:49. > :30:55.Is there anything your brother can do about these comments?
:30:55. > :30:59.As I said in my earlier answer, my brother can speak for himself. I am
:30:59. > :31:05.saying quite clearly that in terms of Alex Salmond's comments in
:31:05. > :31:08.relation to Lord Hope, I think they were ill judged and Alex Salmond
:31:08. > :31:14.and Kenny MacAskill on this issue have made comments which have not
:31:14. > :31:17.been helpful. We have to look at the process of whether there are
:31:17. > :31:22.opportunities to improve the process, we will look at them. This
:31:22. > :31:32.has been used as a red herring in order to push the SNP's
:31:32. > :31:34.
:31:34. > :31:39.Yesterday, you it express concerns about the Andes sectarianism
:31:39. > :31:47.legislation being rushed through but do not think it is laudable?
:31:47. > :31:52.There is a degree across Parliament to try to stamp out sectarianism
:31:52. > :31:58.and when letter bombs are sent to high-profile figures then we would
:31:58. > :32:05.support legislation which took on people who brought these things
:32:05. > :32:10.forward. But this issue is highly technical and full of legal
:32:10. > :32:20.complexities and it would be wrong to rush to the legislate. The same
:32:20. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:32.It takes a good deal of care to legislate well and it takes time.
:32:33. > :32:37.There will be a balance as to whether we want to make sure we
:32:37. > :32:42.have done as much as we can sensibly and professionally and as
:32:42. > :32:48.quickly as we can bearing in mind the football season starts soon.
:32:49. > :32:52.The question is, do we do it now or do we leave it until the next
:32:52. > :32:57.session when we are well into the season. I think we should do what
:32:57. > :33:01.we can as well as we can and that we start the season with a clear
:33:01. > :33:05.set of rules. Thank you both for joining me.
:33:06. > :33:12.Later: A shaky weekend for Ed Miliband with doubts about his
:33:12. > :33:18.leadership in the Sunday papers. Whether Inverclyde by-election at
:33:18. > :33:24.to the doubts about his ability to lead -- will the Inverclyde by-
:33:24. > :33:29.election? I'm joined by our business and
:33:29. > :33:36.economy editor. Good afternoon. Can you explain that job figures out
:33:36. > :33:42.today? It is confusing. The headline figure is that the number
:33:42. > :33:49.of people, the most recent figures, the number of people seeking work
:33:49. > :33:57.during those months were down by 10,000 in Scotland. Down by 88,000
:33:57. > :34:04.across the UK. So far so simple and good news. But you also find the
:34:04. > :34:10.employment figures has fallen by 7000 which reverses a long positive
:34:10. > :34:14.trend in Scotland anyway. The workforce has contracted slightly.
:34:14. > :34:19.That is the number of people in work or available for work, and
:34:19. > :34:29.that is because they are either retiring a LEA or going into full-
:34:29. > :34:33.time education. -- retiring early. So the work force changes and that
:34:33. > :34:38.held six - might explain why the figures are conflicting. The way we
:34:38. > :34:47.measure unemployment, a number of people last month on jobseeker's
:34:47. > :34:52.allowance was up by a 1200 to just under 139,000 and it was up in the
:34:52. > :34:57.UK as well. Conflicting stories which underlines what we all know,
:34:57. > :35:04.we are bumping around on an economic recovery. It is not a
:35:04. > :35:10.clear story. Eddie Barnes, from the Scotsman, what do you make of these
:35:10. > :35:18.figures? There is a story they can tell. As Douglas explained, the
:35:18. > :35:22.employment rate is rising and that can be put down to the point that
:35:22. > :35:26.by having accelerated spending last year, particularly in helping the
:35:26. > :35:32.construction industry, figures there have risen substantially and
:35:32. > :35:36.it has helped the overall figure. That is a good message. The issue
:35:36. > :35:41.is that over the next year, can they sustain that when the public
:35:41. > :35:47.sector begins these severe cuts and that will be difficult. Douglas,
:35:47. > :35:51.one other interesting figure today. If you delve into statistics that
:35:51. > :35:55.it put out by the Office of National Statistics, the number of
:35:55. > :36:01.strikes that have been going on... There are a lot of threats about
:36:01. > :36:06.the winter of discontent because people are facing pay freezes or
:36:06. > :36:10.very small play -- pay increases while inflation is high. If you
:36:10. > :36:16.look at last month, there were only four strikes across the whole of
:36:16. > :36:21.the UK in the private sector and 10 in the public sector. Only 6000
:36:21. > :36:26.workers involved. Given what is involved in this time what is
:36:26. > :36:31.happening in the workplace, that is an astonishingly low level. Bend
:36:31. > :36:35.you for that. Letters cross to Holyrood Again one
:36:35. > :36:40.-- where I am joined by the finance secretary, John Swinney. Thank you
:36:40. > :36:45.for joining me. We speak almost every month and, to be fair, for
:36:45. > :36:51.the last seven months it has been quite a rosy picture in the
:36:51. > :36:56.employment prospects but it is a mixed picture at this afternoon.
:36:56. > :37:01.What the statistics show today it is the 7th consecutive month of
:37:01. > :37:06.falling unemployment and it shows our unemployment rate to be higher
:37:06. > :37:11.than the rest of the UK. It shows our economic activity level to be
:37:11. > :37:18.lower than the rest of the UK and that I'll -- is a welcome piece of
:37:18. > :37:25.news. A to cause of concern is the rise in the claimant count. It
:37:25. > :37:28.indicates why we have been asking the UK government to release more
:37:29. > :37:33.capital investment for us to be able to invest in the health of the
:37:33. > :37:38.Scottish economy and its recovery because the whole process of
:37:38. > :37:42.economic recovery remains a very fragile recovery and we have to
:37:42. > :37:47.build on the foundations on which we have been building over the last
:37:47. > :37:51.few months. Indeed, you have had a running commentary for the past
:37:51. > :37:56.seven months when there figures have been good but it makes it more
:37:56. > :38:00.difficult to explain when the figures are bad, doesn't it? What
:38:00. > :38:04.it shows is that There are 10,000 more people in employment today
:38:04. > :38:08.than there were 12 months ago and that his evidence we are moving in
:38:08. > :38:13.the right direction. We have had seven months of falling
:38:13. > :38:20.unemployment and that is to be welcome. Most people on jobseeker's
:38:20. > :38:24.allowance and seeking employment... There are more of them than men the
:38:24. > :38:29.figures last came at and that indicates a challenge that we have.
:38:29. > :38:33.We have to continue our focus on economic recovery by expanding the
:38:33. > :38:38.range of modern apprenticeships, by supporting the development of some
:38:38. > :38:43.of our key sectors of the Investment and the renewables
:38:43. > :38:48.industries. These are the challenges that remain and which
:38:48. > :38:54.the government is focused on addressing. Figures show an
:38:54. > :39:02.increase in private sector and -- employment, does that showed that
:39:02. > :39:06.plan a is working. The Chancellor has said then needs to be
:39:06. > :39:11.flexibility in economic policy and that is what we are looking for. We
:39:11. > :39:15.want the Chancellor to address and number of issues principally about
:39:15. > :39:19.investment in capital and infrastructure in Scotland. If you
:39:19. > :39:23.look back at the construction employment at the end of the last
:39:23. > :39:29.year, there was a 13% increase in Scotland and a decrease south of
:39:29. > :39:36.the border. Why? Because the Scottish government sustained its
:39:36. > :39:40.investment in capital projects but the UK skilled it back. We must
:39:40. > :39:44.make interventions in the economy to sustain growth. Anyone looking
:39:44. > :39:48.at these figures today unemployment will indicate that we are moving in
:39:48. > :39:53.the right direction but we have to be careful about the steps we take,
:39:53. > :39:57.which is why be make the case for further investment. Retail figures
:39:57. > :40:03.were very bad today. We have seen the worst fall since records began
:40:03. > :40:07.10 years ago. Were you disappointed? The retail sector is
:40:07. > :40:13.reflecting some of the pressure that is taking place in household
:40:13. > :40:18.income. We have a freeze in place on public-sector pay, there have
:40:18. > :40:22.been private sector pay freezes in place and we have seen increases in
:40:22. > :40:27.energy bills coming through and further increases to come. These
:40:27. > :40:32.are putting pressure on household income and that is why we maintain
:40:32. > :40:36.our position of freezing the council tax and provide a respite
:40:36. > :40:40.for householders in Scotland. It demonstrates that there is pressure
:40:40. > :40:45.on household income and that is one other issue that we have raised
:40:45. > :40:50.with the United Kingdom government, about the importance of building
:40:50. > :40:53.consumer confidence to ensure people in our country can take more
:40:53. > :40:58.confident decisions about their purchases and that can flow through
:40:58. > :41:02.into retail spending. Just to return to the top storey, were you
:41:02. > :41:12.surprised when you picked up your copy of Holyrood magazine to see
:41:12. > :41:13.
:41:13. > :41:18.the first minister and his rather intemperate comments? This issue
:41:18. > :41:23.was that an intense level a few weeks ago. Since that time, we have
:41:23. > :41:28.taken the issue for wood and have set-up the expert panel to examine
:41:28. > :41:35.the issues that are involved in the unintended consequences of the role
:41:35. > :41:40.of the Supreme Court and we should let that expert panel, a renowned
:41:40. > :41:43.panel of legal experts, carry out its work and give us some
:41:43. > :41:50.reflections on a serious issue causing concern to members of the
:41:50. > :41:54.public. Thank you. Ed Miliband branded David Cameron
:41:54. > :41:59.an absolute disgrace in an ill- tempered Prime Minister's Questions
:41:59. > :42:09.clash over the impact of welfare reforms on cancer patients.
:42:09. > :42:11.
:42:11. > :42:17.Following a question from an SNP MP, David Cameron repeated his against
:42:17. > :42:21.to the respect campaign. Macmillan Cancer charities have
:42:21. > :42:25.been making these comments four months. I'm amazed the Prime
:42:25. > :42:29.Minister doesn't know about these arguments. The House of Commons is
:42:29. > :42:36.fighting on this tonight. He should know about them. Hit I asked him
:42:36. > :42:41.again, will he now admit that 7000 cancer patients are using up to �94
:42:41. > :42:44.a week? I have answered his question three times with a full
:42:44. > :42:50.explanation and the whole point about our benefit reforms is that
:42:50. > :42:55.There are proper medical tests so we support those who cannot work as
:42:55. > :43:02.a general it - might generous and compassionate country should. We
:43:02. > :43:06.are also make sure that those who can work go out to work. He is the
:43:06. > :43:11.planting to put up a smokescreen because he has been found out. He
:43:11. > :43:15.has made a species week about the importance of welfare reform but he
:43:15. > :43:23.cannot take his divided party with him and that is what this is about,
:43:23. > :43:27.weak leadership of a divided party. Mr Speaker, what an absolute
:43:27. > :43:32.disgrace to describe talking about cancer patients in this country as
:43:32. > :43:36.a smokescreen. This is about people in the country, cancer charities
:43:36. > :43:40.you are concerned on their behalf and he doesn't know his own policy.
:43:40. > :43:46.This is about people recovering from cancer who are losing support
:43:46. > :43:50.as a result of his government. Mr Speaker, we know he doesn't think
:43:50. > :43:56.his policies through. Isn't this one occasion when, if ever there
:43:56. > :44:03.was a case to pause, listen and reflect, this is it. Why doesn't he
:44:03. > :44:09.do so? For what we have seen this week is the right honourable
:44:09. > :44:16.gentleman get on the wrong side of every issue. Cutting the deficit,
:44:16. > :44:22.we now have the CBI, the IMF, his brother, Tony Blair all on our side
:44:22. > :44:27.and only he is on his own. On welfare reform, everyone recognises
:44:27. > :44:32.welfare needs to be reformed apart from the right honourable gentleman.
:44:32. > :44:36.On the health service, we now have the Royal College of GPs, the Royal
:44:36. > :44:41.College of Nurses, the Royal College of Physicians, the former
:44:41. > :44:47.Health Minister and Tony Blair on the side of reform and on his end,
:44:47. > :44:51.there right honourable gentleman. A weak leader of a divided party.
:44:51. > :44:54.SNP won a landslide in the recent elections and a mandate to improve
:44:54. > :44:58.the powers of the Scottish Parliament so will the Prime
:44:58. > :45:02.Minister respect the Scottish electorate and except be six
:45:02. > :45:06.proposals for improvement in the Scotland Bill by the Scottish
:45:06. > :45:10.parliament? We listened very carefully and we respect the fact
:45:10. > :45:15.that the SNP won a mandate in Scotland and we are responding
:45:15. > :45:22.positively. The Scotland Bill before the House is a massive
:45:22. > :45:27.extension of devolution and is an extra �12 billion of spending power.
:45:27. > :45:32.We will go ahead with that and look at all the proposals that first
:45:32. > :45:35.minister Alex Salmond has had. Respect is a two-way street in
:45:35. > :45:43.which I respect the views and wishes of the Scottish people and
:45:43. > :45:47.they have to respect that they are part of a United Kingdom. The Prime
:45:47. > :45:52.Minister will know this is the first opportunity I have had to ask
:45:52. > :45:58.him a question. I stand here fresh and full of hope so I will give him
:45:58. > :46:03.one more chance to answer the question. People in my constituency
:46:03. > :46:09.and up and down the country face enormous increases in their energy
:46:09. > :46:13.bills. They need help now. When is the Prime Minister going to keep
:46:13. > :46:23.his promise made in opposition to take tough action on excessive
:46:23. > :46:24.
:46:24. > :46:28.As I said, we are taking action. There is only a certain amount you
:46:28. > :46:33.can do when you see fuel prices go up by as much as they have over the
:46:33. > :46:37.yard last year. A 50 % increase in oil and gas. We do have the warm
:46:37. > :46:41.front scheme. The fact that we are making for that were there are
:46:42. > :46:46.special tariffs, companies have to offer them today uses. That makes a
:46:46. > :46:52.difference. There is the point about the Post Office card account
:46:52. > :46:55.holders that don't currently have the discounts available to them.
:46:55. > :47:00.She shakes her head but in one year, that is more than the last
:47:00. > :47:08.government did in 13. I am joined back for the final time
:47:08. > :47:11.by the political editor of the Scotsman, Eddie Barney. Do you
:47:11. > :47:16.think he has quite a mountain to climb?
:47:16. > :47:22.Yes. I thought it was a thumpingly good exchange. He definitely upped
:47:22. > :47:25.the tempo on previous weeks and it was an interesting subject he chose
:47:25. > :47:30.on cancer care and welfare for cancer patients. All very much with
:47:30. > :47:34.the aim of saying, I care more about cancer patients than the
:47:34. > :47:39.Tories do. I thought David Cameron came back very well. The key
:47:39. > :47:46.message he was giving was that line about a weak leader of a divided
:47:46. > :47:49.party and that will be rammed home over the next two or three years.
:47:49. > :47:53.Ed Miliband has to find a way of forming his own narrative that
:47:53. > :48:00.combats that. We have seen him struggle over the
:48:00. > :48:04.last week with fat. Following the Inverclyde by-election, do you
:48:04. > :48:07.think he might be able to swing that? It is looking not great for
:48:07. > :48:13.Labour. I don't think Ed Miliband will
:48:13. > :48:17.swing it. It will be about the local candidate. It is one of those
:48:17. > :48:22.by-elections that the Labour Party has everything to lose. They
:48:22. > :48:29.obviously won it by a huge majority not 12 months ago but that is by
:48:29. > :48:33.the by now. As I say, they have everything to lose.
:48:33. > :48:39.The mood music I am getting from Labour is that it will be quite
:48:39. > :48:41.quote -- it'll be quite close. If they did lose, what would that
:48:41. > :48:45.mean for Ed Miliband and his leadership?
:48:45. > :48:49.Terribly bad news. There would be no getting away from it. I suspect
:48:49. > :48:53.they would try to say it was a Scottish issue and had no relevance
:48:53. > :48:57.to the rest of the country but there is no getting away from be
:48:57. > :49:01.losing one of the safest seats they have got. That would be further bad
:49:01. > :49:05.news. And do you think that UK Labour can
:49:05. > :49:09.do that? Do you think they can say, this is a Scottish by-election,
:49:09. > :49:13.even though they have a thumping great majority at the moment?
:49:13. > :49:19.I seem to recall the Conservatives doing just that at the Glasgow
:49:19. > :49:24.North-East by-election themselves. So yes, that would be the line,
:49:24. > :49:32.should it happen. Let us wait and see.
:49:32. > :49:37.Thank you. That is all from us this week. Brian Taylor will be here
:49:37. > :49:41.tomorrow at 12 noon to bring you First Minister's Questions and we