0:00:17 > 0:00:20Good afternoon and welcome aboard.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24On today's programme: Scotland will probably become the first
0:00:24 > 0:00:32country in the world to introduce a minimum price for alcohol.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Yellow mark this as an example of Scotland leading the world. It will
0:00:36 > 0:00:41continue to have its critics, but this is the kind of bold and
0:00:41 > 0:00:44necessary policy that we need to tackle our public health challenges.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Scottish Labour becomes a rudderless ship as its interim leader stands
0:00:47 > 0:00:50aside amid misconduct claims and a former leader calls for him
0:00:50 > 0:00:54to be suspended from the party.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56And here at Westminster, Brexit and the budget -
0:00:56 > 0:01:05MPs have no shortage of things to get their teeth into.
0:01:05 > 0:01:06Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09We've a slightly shorter programme today because of the tennis over
0:01:09 > 0:01:12on BBC Two, but we'll pack as much in as we can.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14With me throughout will be the journalist and former
0:01:14 > 0:01:17SNP MP George Kerevan.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22Let's just talk for a minute about minimum pricing. This saga has been
0:01:22 > 0:01:29going on for years.Since 2012, six or seven years. The original
0:01:29 > 0:01:39legislation only allows the Legislature to be on the statute
0:01:39 > 0:01:40Legislature to be on the statute book for six years, so we could
0:01:40 > 0:01:44almost have done it by now and got the results of the experiment.Yes,
0:01:44 > 0:01:47there is a sunset in the bill, that is an interesting development,
0:01:47 > 0:01:52because that has been talked about a lot both in America and here. Have
0:01:52 > 0:01:56there been any other legislation with that? It is an interesting
0:01:56 > 0:02:04idea.Occasionally it has been used, but this was a major effort to get
0:02:04 > 0:02:08the original alcohol pricing legislation accepted by all of the
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Scottish Parliament.So the idea of a sunset clause, just to explain it,
0:02:12 > 0:02:16if there is no evidence it is working, the end of five or six
0:02:16 > 0:02:22years...It stops anyway, you have to start again to get it back.Or
0:02:22 > 0:02:30you could just forget about it. Take your SNP hat off for a moment, and
0:02:30 > 0:02:35put on your economist hat. Does it make sense?Absolutely. The
0:02:35 > 0:02:41frightening statistic for me as a Scot is that Scots on average 2020%
0:02:41 > 0:02:46more alcohol than people in England and Wales, and that's not just
0:02:46 > 0:02:53people who have a serious alcohol problem, it is ordinary middle-class
0:02:53 > 0:03:03people. This isn't just political correctness.The point I was saying
0:03:03 > 0:03:07as an economist, is altering the price as a mechanism, will that
0:03:07 > 0:03:13achieve the effect they want?Yes, there is a whole new branch of
0:03:13 > 0:03:16economics called psychological economics which looks at peoples
0:03:16 > 0:03:18behaviour, how people behave, and if you give them a little incentive,
0:03:18 > 0:03:26they stop doing things.Nudges. They got a Nobel prize for it. Let's
0:03:26 > 0:03:33leave it there for now, and talk more about this, actually.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Its detractors said it was yet another tax on the poor,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38but the Scottish Government insisted it was essential to tackle
0:03:38 > 0:03:39Scotland's unhealthy relationship with alcohol.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41Today the Supreme Court ruled that Scotland can set
0:03:41 > 0:03:43a minimum price for alcohol, rejecting a challenge
0:03:43 > 0:03:45by the Scotch Whisky Association and finally paving the way
0:03:45 > 0:03:47for legislation that was originally passed
0:03:47 > 0:03:52by the Scottish Parliament five years ago.
0:03:52 > 0:03:57The whiskey industry has fought minimum unit pricing hard, arguing
0:03:57 > 0:04:03that it is against EU trade law. But judges at the UK Supreme Court have
0:04:03 > 0:04:08rejected that argument.The Supreme Court unanimously dismisses the
0:04:08 > 0:04:12appeal, Lord Myners gives the judgment with which the remaining
0:04:12 > 0:04:17six justices agree, the 2012 act does not breach EU law, minimum
0:04:17 > 0:04:22pricing is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.The aim
0:04:22 > 0:04:27is to reduce excessive drinking and alcohol related deaths, and
0:04:27 > 0:04:31ministers believe setting a basic price per unit of alcohol will help
0:04:31 > 0:04:37achieve that.I'm delighted at this unanimous ruling by the UK Supreme
0:04:37 > 0:04:42Court. It is a landmark moment for public health in Scotland, and it
0:04:42 > 0:04:46will help to change our relationship with alcohol and save lives. It will
0:04:46 > 0:04:50reduce harm, and we look forward to getting on and implementing it as
0:04:50 > 0:04:55soon as possible.The preferred Price, 50p per unit, will push up
0:04:55 > 0:05:00the cost of cheap, strong drink, while leaving premium products
0:05:00 > 0:05:04unaffected. There is no further legal route to challenge the
0:05:04 > 0:05:07measure.We accept the Supreme Court's ruling, and the industry
0:05:07 > 0:05:13will continue to work in partnership with the Government in promoting
0:05:13 > 0:05:16responsible drinking, it is of paramount importance. But we will
0:05:16 > 0:05:20also be looking to the UK and Scottish Governments to support the
0:05:20 > 0:05:24industry against any negative impact of trade barriers that are raised
0:05:24 > 0:05:29against us overseas as a consequence of minimum pricing.It is eight
0:05:29 > 0:05:33years since Nicola Sturgeon first raised an alcohol free toast to the
0:05:33 > 0:05:39idea of minimum pricing when she was Health Secretary. After much
0:05:39 > 0:05:42controversy and delay, it can now happen.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44That was Glenn Campbell reporting.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Well, alcohol isn't the only big story coming out of Holyrood today,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49because the interim leader of the Scottish Labour Party
0:05:49 > 0:05:50has stepped aside amid allegations of misconduct -
0:05:50 > 0:05:52allegations he has denied.
0:05:52 > 0:05:57Our political editor Brian Taylor joins me now from Edinburgh
0:05:57 > 0:06:05What is this all about?It's as if the Labour Party has become a swift
0:06:05 > 0:06:13turmoil. Kezia Dugdale stood down as leader towards the end of August,
0:06:13 > 0:06:18and Alec Crowley, being the deputy, stepped up as she stepped down. He
0:06:18 > 0:06:30was accused of recorded supporting one of the
0:06:30 > 0:06:33one of the contenders to the top job, and this has surfaced in the
0:06:33 > 0:06:37sun newspaper this morning, former girlfriend, accusing him of sending
0:06:37 > 0:06:42her abusive text messages. It should be stressed that Alex Rowley
0:06:42 > 0:06:45strenuously denied these allegations, but has stepped down
0:06:45 > 0:06:49from these leadership roles pending an investigation by the Labour
0:06:49 > 0:06:53Party.But that is not enough for some in the party?Kezia Dugdale
0:06:53 > 0:07:01says that Mr
0:07:01 > 0:07:07says that Mr Rowley should be suspended from the party, and she
0:07:07 > 0:07:13said had she still been leader, that would have been the case, and
0:07:13 > 0:07:23another candidate, Anas Sarwar, has said that there needs to be a full
0:07:23 > 0:07:27and thorough investigation, stressing zero tolerance for abusive
0:07:27 > 0:07:30behaviour, stressing of course that everyone must also be given a chance
0:07:30 > 0:07:36to clear their name.I've got a sense of deja vu, because a week ago
0:07:36 > 0:07:38today, we were having the same conversation except it was about
0:07:38 > 0:07:43mark McDonald, the government minister, and we were talking about
0:07:43 > 0:07:48why it is more difficult to force someone out as an MSP. The
0:07:48 > 0:07:53difference with Labour is they seem to be saying he can stay as an MSP,
0:07:53 > 0:08:02but not about a Labour MSP.This isn't about him being an SNP, in a
0:08:02 > 0:08:09statement earlier mark McDonald said it would be up to his constituents
0:08:09 > 0:08:15to decide if he should stay. This is about his colours. He has been
0:08:15 > 0:08:17absent from Parliament for two weeks with a chest infection, Jackie
0:08:17 > 0:08:22Baillie has stood in for him in that period in question is to the First
0:08:22 > 0:08:28Minister, which I guess makes her the interim interim leader.There
0:08:28 > 0:08:33are allegations made about Alex Rowley which will be denied, and we
0:08:33 > 0:08:37will put them into a separate category for later investigation. Is
0:08:37 > 0:08:42the reaction to this entirely divorced from the politicking going
0:08:42 > 0:08:46on in the Labour Party at the moment?It is not, but it is also
0:08:46 > 0:08:49not divorced from the atmosphere here at Holyrood. It was only last
0:08:49 > 0:08:55week that Parliament agreed, the leaders agreed a new strategy, a
0:08:55 > 0:08:59hotline to allow people perhaps more access to make the complaints, there
0:08:59 > 0:09:04are notices up in the lift and elsewhere in Parliament saying that
0:09:04 > 0:09:09there is zero tolerance of abusive or harassment behaviour here in
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Parliament, so it is in that context, and it should be said that
0:09:12 > 0:09:16in the sun report this morning, the Lady Mickey the complaint said that
0:09:16 > 0:09:22she has felt emboldened to do so against that background. -- the lady
0:09:22 > 0:09:26making the complaint. We must stress that Alex Rowley is adamant he has
0:09:26 > 0:09:30done nothing wrong and will try to clear his name.We should make it
0:09:30 > 0:09:36quite clear that while Anas Sarwar and Kezia Dugdale are calling for
0:09:36 > 0:09:43Alex Rowley to be suspended from the Labour Party, that is not the case
0:09:43 > 0:09:46as it stands, but they are calling for a different
0:09:46 > 0:09:51way of handling this.Indeed, what we are seeing is almost a perfect
0:09:51 > 0:09:56car crash for Labour. The debate about the poisonous atmosphere of
0:09:56 > 0:10:01the leadership election campaign, which we all know about, has now
0:10:01 > 0:10:11intersected with the whole debate about harassment for the
0:10:11 > 0:10:14about harassment for the. Alex Rowley doesn't feel that he has done
0:10:14 > 0:10:18anything that he needs to resign for, but clearly the two issues have
0:10:18 > 0:10:22now merged.Do you think the SNP were right to handle it the way they
0:10:22 > 0:10:28did?I think the SNP government were quite swift in dealing with the
0:10:28 > 0:10:33problem, parking it, Parliament has moved on in setting up...Was by not
0:10:33 > 0:10:36suspending him from the SNP, that is what is being argued that should
0:10:36 > 0:10:41happen to Alex Rowley.It is horses for courses, it depends on the
0:10:41 > 0:10:47nature of each particular allegation. But certainly, looking
0:10:47 > 0:10:51at it from the outside in, the inference would have to be for most
0:10:51 > 0:11:02people that calls by particular people in the Sarwar camp for Alex
0:11:02 > 0:11:07Rowley to have to go seem to be more about bickering within the Labour
0:11:07 > 0:11:21camp.And is that what Anas Sarwar has called for?Indeed it is.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34Let's go over to Westminster Green, this has been quite a week the
0:11:34 > 0:11:40government, no one has resigned, no fresh scandals.Remember we are only
0:11:40 > 0:11:44on Wednesday! An awful lot can happen in a week in politics, and
0:11:44 > 0:11:48last week an awful lot happens. The Conservatives are feeling perhaps a
0:11:48 > 0:11:55little more confident and happy with themselves because as you say, no
0:11:55 > 0:11:58further Cabinet resignations, no more scandal so far, and what was
0:11:58 > 0:12:02evident in the demeanour of the Prime Minister at Prime Minister's
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Questions time today, she seemed more confident than she had done in
0:12:05 > 0:12:09the past and that was probably helped by the tactics of Jeremy
0:12:09 > 0:12:13Corbyn, instead of focusing on one issue, he went on a number of
0:12:13 > 0:12:19issues. You might think it is strange that in this week when MPs
0:12:19 > 0:12:22are beginning detailed discussion of the Brexit bill that Jeremy Corbyn
0:12:22 > 0:12:27did not want to go on that issue to try and exploit Conservative
0:12:27 > 0:12:31divisions. I think the reason he didn't is because he will know and
0:12:31 > 0:12:36he will be well aware that there are divisions within his own party, and
0:12:36 > 0:12:41that could well have been thrown back to him, that his party is split
0:12:41 > 0:12:47on the issue of Brexit as well. But it was an interesting Prime
0:12:47 > 0:12:52Minister's Questions time, it was a marathon one, and it went on for 50
0:12:52 > 0:12:57minutes, ostensibly it should be from 12 till 12 30p each week, but
0:12:57 > 0:13:03each week it is creeping, it is getting longer, you get the
0:13:03 > 0:13:10impression that the Speaker is trying to get it to go up to the one
0:13:10 > 0:13:13o'clock News. A week today we will also be discussing the budget, and
0:13:13 > 0:13:18that is going to be vitally important for the Conservative
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Party. Many Conservative MPs see it as an opportunity for them to try
0:13:22 > 0:13:26and press the reset button, and actually get on the front foot again
0:13:26 > 0:13:30in politics with all the problems they have had over to Brexit, the
0:13:30 > 0:13:34conference that didn't go the way they wanted it to, and they will use
0:13:34 > 0:13:38this as an opportunity to try and get back on the front foot and put
0:13:38 > 0:13:42forward policy so that there is an awful lot rested on the shoulders of
0:13:42 > 0:13:49Philip Hammond. The problem for him is he doesn't have a lot of money to
0:13:49 > 0:13:52throw around. The reason I mention the budget is that when Jeremy
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Corbyn came to Prime Minister's Questions time today, it was pretty
0:13:56 > 0:13:59obvious that he wanted to raise a number of issues which he feels
0:13:59 > 0:14:02should be taken account of and addressed in the budget a week
0:14:02 > 0:14:10today.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15Mr Speaker, crime is up, violence crime is up and police numbers are
0:14:15 > 0:14:20down by 20,000. Will the Prime Minister urged her Chancellor, who I
0:14:20 > 0:14:25noted this week is sitting right next to her, to provide the funding
0:14:25 > 0:14:30our police needs to make communities safer?He raised the issue of crime
0:14:30 > 0:14:34and policing. Crime is traditionally measured by the independent crime
0:14:34 > 0:14:39survey are down by well over a third since 2010. We have been protecting
0:14:39 > 0:14:45police budgets. We have protected police budgets and we are putting
0:14:45 > 0:14:48more money into counterterrorism policing. But what matters is what
0:14:48 > 0:14:54the police do and how they deliver, and as I say, the crime survey shows
0:14:54 > 0:15:03that crime is down by nearly a third since 2010.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07since 2010.Scottish police are the only forces in the United Kingdom to
0:15:07 > 0:15:12be charged VAT, depriving front-line services of £140 million since 2013.
0:15:12 > 0:15:19The SNP has now raised this issue 30 times in this chamber. Will the UK
0:15:19 > 0:15:24Government now give Scotland's emergency services back our 140
0:15:24 > 0:15:28million and scrapped the VAT? This is been a long-standing SNP
0:15:28 > 0:15:36campaign. We will not give up.The Chief Secretary has made clear that
0:15:36 > 0:15:40officials in HMT will look at this issue, and they will report on it in
0:15:40 > 0:15:44due course. I am pleased to say that very constructive representations
0:15:44 > 0:15:50have been made by my Scottish colleagues on this particular issue,
0:15:50 > 0:15:56but let's just be clear, because The right honourable gentleman knows
0:15:56 > 0:16:00this, that before the Scottish Government made the decision to make
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Scotland's police and Fire Services National rather than regional
0:16:02 > 0:16:07bodies, they were told that this would mean that they would become
0:16:07 > 0:16:16ineligible for VAT refunds, and they pressed ahead despite knowing that.
0:16:16 > 0:16:17pressed ahead despite knowing that. The Prime Minister is aware that a
0:16:17 > 0:16:23firm that supplies the energy sector, it would put 1400 jobs in
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Fife, Lewis and elsewhere in Scotland under threat. Canellas the
0:16:26 > 0:16:33Prime Minister work with this firm, and five cancel to do all they can?
0:16:33 > 0:16:37I am happy to give the honourable gentleman that assurance. I was able
0:16:37 > 0:16:40to discuss this matter very briefly with the First Minister Scotland
0:16:40 > 0:16:44yesterday when I met her, and I am pleased to say that my honourable
0:16:44 > 0:16:49friend, the member for Devizes, is a minister in bays, spoke to the
0:16:49 > 0:16:52relevant minister in the Scottish Government, Paul Williamson,
0:16:52 > 0:16:59yesterday about this issue, and we stand ready. Bays, HMT and the
0:16:59 > 0:17:01government stand ready to work with the Scottish Government and others
0:17:01 > 0:17:08to try to ensure the best result can be achieved.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11Prime Minister's Question Time for the little earlier at Westminster.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14Without further ado, my guess this week, we have a lot to talk about,
0:17:14 > 0:17:19so we will push on festival from the SNP, Stephen Gethins, from Labour,
0:17:19 > 0:17:29Ross Thomson from the Scottish Conservatives.Brexit, Ross Thomson
0:17:29 > 0:17:34is someone who wants to get out of the European Union. This detailed
0:17:34 > 0:17:39discussion about the withdrawal must be meat and drink to you?This is a
0:17:39 > 0:17:42necessary step and an historic moment as this Parliament now will
0:17:42 > 0:17:45go to the process of scrutinising the European withdrawal bill to make
0:17:45 > 0:17:50sure we have a working statute book for the day really the European
0:17:50 > 0:17:54Union cover giving 72 hour businesses, employers, communities.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58Also to start paving the way for new trade deals which we can strike the
0:17:58 > 0:18:02rest of the world, so I figured is a really exciting time to be in
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Parliament.Christine Jardine, no secret that the Liberal Democrats
0:18:05 > 0:18:10don't want to be in this position. But now it is only right surely that
0:18:10 > 0:18:14MPs start dealing with the net gritty of what will be a -- the
0:18:14 > 0:18:19nitty-gritty of what will be a convex issue?We all want what is
0:18:19 > 0:18:21best, what would be ideal is to withdraw the withdrawal bill, for
0:18:21 > 0:18:27us. Receiver UK's future at the heart of Europe is the best we could
0:18:27 > 0:18:31have covered the deal we have of the Bebb at. But the Conservatives still
0:18:31 > 0:18:34have not given us a clear picture, we don't know what the deal will be
0:18:34 > 0:18:38come if there is a deal, and we have to persuade them that no deal is not
0:18:38 > 0:18:44an option.Paul Sweeney, from a newcomer's point of view, this
0:18:44 > 0:18:47detailed discussion where it seems MPs are talking at great length and
0:18:47 > 0:18:51it is not always structured, how does that strike you, as a new MP?
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Is it the right way to go about things? Weeden it is key that
0:18:55 > 0:19:01Parliament must have a good will role in determining future of our
0:19:01 > 0:19:05country.Essentially the government wants to use it as power grab to go
0:19:05 > 0:19:09for a perfunctory, ultimately it is all about seizing power from the
0:19:09 > 0:19:13legislature. The real deals will be done via back deal through cabinet,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16power brokers and the executive, and Parliament will have no real
0:19:16 > 0:19:21influence in it. That is why Labour's amendments will ensure that
0:19:21 > 0:19:25our democratic legislature has that role in ensuring the future of our
0:19:25 > 0:19:29country is safeguarded through the Brexit process.Labour use of the
0:19:29 > 0:19:34late which power group, other using your language?Paul is absolutely
0:19:34 > 0:19:36right to highlight not only do the UK Government wants take-back in
0:19:36 > 0:19:41full from Brussels but from Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh as well. This
0:19:41 > 0:19:45withdrawal bill is a mess. The government less than 24 hours before
0:19:45 > 0:19:48we started chatting in last-minute amendments the head of rebellions.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53We are over 500 days on from the EU referendum and we still don't have a
0:19:53 > 0:19:57clear idea. That is really damaging the business. Ross mentioned all
0:19:57 > 0:20:01these trade deals. Well, it was over a year ago that David Davis said
0:20:01 > 0:20:04that by September 2017 we would be rolling out all sorts of trade
0:20:04 > 0:20:08deals, they would be good to go, and we have seen nothing. It is time for
0:20:08 > 0:20:12the government to go back to the drawing board on this one. It has
0:20:12 > 0:20:15too big an effect on all of our constituents to be this kind of
0:20:15 > 0:20:23mess.I will put the issue of Brexit one side for a moment. A week today
0:20:23 > 0:20:25we will be discussing the budget, Stephen Gethins, as far as Scotland
0:20:25 > 0:20:28is concerned, but should that budget had in it?There should be a number
0:20:28 > 0:20:32of things, first of all and end to austerity, the devastating impact
0:20:32 > 0:20:36that has on our public service is. It has been going on for far too
0:20:36 > 0:20:42long. We also of Yearsley want to CNN and the charging our emergency
0:20:42 > 0:20:45services for VAT, something the SNP raised to 30 times in the chamber
0:20:45 > 0:20:49and something in Blackwood raised again today, 140 million quid that
0:20:49 > 0:20:53could go direct into a police and Fire Services. That needs to be a
0:20:53 > 0:20:58priority as well and the investment in our public service is.Police and
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Fire Service VAT, Paul Sweeney, the Prime Minister seemed to drop a very
0:21:02 > 0:21:07heavy hint today that something would be done on this. Presumably,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10it is something you would welcome, but then the argument will begin as
0:21:10 > 0:21:15to who takes the credit for it.AtI think it is a combined effort, there
0:21:15 > 0:21:20is unity of purpose, but ultimately it was one that could have been
0:21:20 > 0:21:24avoided if we knew this was coming, if we went for the centralisation of
0:21:24 > 0:21:28police and fire. It could have been avoided in the first place but now
0:21:28 > 0:21:32they have to minimise the harm it has caused an inch over yet this VAT
0:21:32 > 0:21:36liability removed and we can invest that money in public service is to
0:21:36 > 0:21:41ensure maximum efficiency, so we are all behind it.Christine Jardine, if
0:21:41 > 0:21:46the UK Government has a gift to give on VAT for the Scottish police and
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Fire Service, must the money be ring fenced for those services, it can't
0:21:50 > 0:21:54go into a bigger pot for the Scottish Government?The problem is
0:21:54 > 0:21:57there is a £200 million black hole in the public services, and if the
0:21:57 > 0:22:01money is to be given to Scotland, it must be ring fenced and go to public
0:22:01 > 0:22:05services. As Paul has said it is a problem that was completely
0:22:05 > 0:22:09avoidable. We were the only party that was actually against
0:22:09 > 0:22:12centralisation of the police and Fire Service and this is one of the
0:22:12 > 0:22:15reasons. The SNP government were warned it was a danger and it is a
0:22:15 > 0:22:20problem which we are all facing now in Scotland, which we could have
0:22:20 > 0:22:23avoided so easily.Ross Thomson, nothing is certain and obviously
0:22:23 > 0:22:26people don't disclose what is a budget, but to some extent your
0:22:26 > 0:22:32party will be judged and you as a Scottish Tory MP will be judged on
0:22:32 > 0:22:36what you can say in a week's time. We deliver that because we are
0:22:36 > 0:22:38Scottish Conservatives. If the Chancellor does not take account of
0:22:38 > 0:22:43that, there will be a backlash from the Scottish Conservatives, isn't
0:22:43 > 0:22:47there?Let's Birsa Lily clear, we are in this situation because the
0:22:47 > 0:22:51SNP were warned that there would be liable for VAT and they railroaded
0:22:51 > 0:22:55it through parliament anyway. This is the consequence. There are 13
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Scottish Conservative MPs working at the heart of government. We will
0:22:58 > 0:23:04achieve something and deliver for Scotland, unlike the 35 SNP useless
0:23:04 > 0:23:07MPs who sit on the backbenches who is now an aesthetic that can't
0:23:07 > 0:23:10deliver anything. We will deliver for Scotland, not just on VAT but
0:23:10 > 0:23:15much more.While I'm sure we will all appreciate it if the government
0:23:15 > 0:23:20does recognise the VAT problem, there are other areas where the
0:23:20 > 0:23:23Conservatives could deliver, you could do something about pensions,
0:23:23 > 0:23:27fixed Universal Credit, you could invest £1 billion in housing. There
0:23:27 > 0:23:33are other areas where it is not good enough to say we have done this one
0:23:33 > 0:23:37thing, what about all the other things that are creating austerity
0:23:37 > 0:23:43in Scotland, which the Conservatives are responsible for?The key
0:23:43 > 0:23:47objective is to Labour is the end austerity in Scotland, which is why
0:23:47 > 0:23:49we are opposed to any cut in department all spending in Scotland.
0:23:49 > 0:23:56More fundamentally, Social Security for example, we want to see any cuts
0:23:56 > 0:23:59to Universal Credit, and the roll-out of Universal Credit paused.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02That is where it would have the maximum amount of harm through both
0:24:02 > 0:24:09a welfare system and expenditure in Scotland.The money for our services
0:24:09 > 0:24:12and the police, that is a decision that rests with the Chancellor so I
0:24:12 > 0:24:15hope he makes the right decision this time after years and years. We
0:24:15 > 0:24:19talk about the Tories, they are the ones who should remain part of the
0:24:19 > 0:24:24single market, big impact on jobs, impact on our universities and other
0:24:24 > 0:24:26sectors, Senator IS see if they are true to their word. I doubt they
0:24:26 > 0:24:33will be.A bit of a gear change, events in Zimbabwe. Ross Thomson, it
0:24:33 > 0:24:37does seem as though something very significant is happening, and
0:24:37 > 0:24:46probably historic, and that African state.The people of Zimbabwe
0:24:46 > 0:24:48themselves have suffered the decade and a brutal Rhegium, which has had
0:24:48 > 0:24:53no regards for the human rights of its citizens. Now we have an
0:24:53 > 0:24:56opportunity for the UK Government to ensure it plays a proactive role in
0:24:56 > 0:25:00securing a prosperous and democratic future for the people of Zimbabwe.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03We urged the Foreign Secretary to do that today when it came to answering
0:25:03 > 0:25:06an urgent question in the chamber, and we need to all work together
0:25:06 > 0:25:09across party and with both governments in Scotland and the rest
0:25:09 > 0:25:14of the UK to ensure that good and proper prosperous future for
0:25:14 > 0:25:18Zimbabwe.Christine Jardine, because of the historic associations the UK
0:25:18 > 0:25:22has with Zimbabwe, do we have a special responsibility if help is
0:25:22 > 0:25:28needed?I think we do have a special responsibility, many of us in
0:25:28 > 0:25:32Scotland have family who are either in or have lived in Zimbabwe. Many
0:25:32 > 0:25:36Scots came to Scotland from Zimbabwe, we do have that historic
0:25:36 > 0:25:39connection, and this is huge. The thing we have to wait and see what
0:25:39 > 0:25:44is happening, and we have to try our best to make sure that whatever the
0:25:44 > 0:25:49transition is, it is peaceful, and we avoid descending into violence in
0:25:49 > 0:25:55the bubbly.I asked the question of the Foreign Secretary earlier on in
0:25:55 > 0:25:59the chamber about what is the nature of this transition? Is it from one
0:25:59 > 0:26:02strong man to another or will it be a real transition involving the
0:26:02 > 0:26:06opposition parties and a plural system of free and fair elections?
0:26:06 > 0:26:13That is what want to see a Zimbabwe. Mugabe has been one of the longest
0:26:13 > 0:26:17serving African dictators. We need to make sure we get a free and fair
0:26:17 > 0:26:23election next year.The best way to secure peace, stability and
0:26:23 > 0:26:26development is through democracy and respect for the rule of law. That is
0:26:26 > 0:26:31why we need to invest in our NGOs, where soft power becomes William in
0:26:31 > 0:26:35Portland in this transition period, it is not just about governments.We
0:26:35 > 0:26:40will draw it to a close. Thank you very much. A note of agreement to
0:26:40 > 0:26:46finish with. In a week's time, we will be discussing the budget, and I
0:26:46 > 0:26:51don't think this lot will be half as well behaved them.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56Going back to the beginning of that conversation about Brexit and the
0:26:56 > 0:27:01Brexit bill. There are all these rumours of Conservative MPs who are
0:27:01 > 0:27:06going to rebel, and if they ally with Labour and the SNP they could
0:27:06 > 0:27:10defeat the government, but they didn't yesterday. So I suppose a lot
0:27:10 > 0:27:13of the public might be entitled to say if they didn't do it yesterday,
0:27:13 > 0:27:20will they do it next time?Another seven days to go of the Brexit bill.
0:27:20 > 0:27:25There are 186 pages of amendments, room for lots of catastrophe between
0:27:25 > 0:27:29now and next week. The big one will be whether the government can get
0:27:29 > 0:27:33the motion through to actually set the specific hate and time to come
0:27:33 > 0:27:39out.It is that where apparently 15 Tory MPs are said to be considering
0:27:39 > 0:27:44a rebellion.Because obviously if you set a date than the other side
0:27:44 > 0:27:47of the negotiations will sit tight until the last possible second, so
0:27:47 > 0:27:51there is a certain logic to you in setting that date. In the end I
0:27:51 > 0:27:57would suspect that Labour will fail Theresa May out, because labour is
0:27:57 > 0:28:01committed as much to get through Brexit as the Conservative Party,
0:28:01 > 0:28:06what we are arguing about is detail. So you think that Labour will vote
0:28:06 > 0:28:13for a specific thing? From what you are saying...In the end, in the
0:28:13 > 0:28:19end, the Brexit legislation will be delivered because Labour is
0:28:19 > 0:28:23committed to Brexit as well as the Conservatives.Otherwise nothing
0:28:23 > 0:28:28will happen.I personally would go the other way because if you set the
0:28:28 > 0:28:32date can be like giving more power to the person you are negotiating
0:28:32 > 0:28:37with the wait until the very end, whereas because they know you can
0:28:37 > 0:28:42fall over the cliff edge...This is the European union negotiation, we
0:28:42 > 0:28:47all know it will go right to the end.That is par for the course in
0:28:47 > 0:28:51any European negotiation, as you say, so you could try at that way.
0:28:51 > 0:28:57In many ways I think setting the date, there are much more detailed
0:28:57 > 0:29:01aspects of the transfer of powers, particularly to the devolved
0:29:01 > 0:29:05administrations, which are much more serious, when it comes to impacting
0:29:05 > 0:29:09people's lives.And the issue of what exactly it means to say MPs can
0:29:09 > 0:29:15have a vote in the process at the end.The most important thing about
0:29:15 > 0:29:18today's PMQs, afterwards the reason they went to the holiest of holy is,
0:29:18 > 0:29:23the tearoom, to talk to her MPs. In two years at Westminster I never saw
0:29:23 > 0:29:26her in the tearoom, that means she is desperate kind to shore up
0:29:26 > 0:29:31support.You heard it here first. Now it is time to cross live to the
0:29:31 > 0:29:37Scottish Parliament, our line-up of SNP 's, Joe McColgan from the SNP,
0:29:37 > 0:29:40Miles breaks from the Conservatives, Rhoda Grant from Labour and Alison
0:29:40 > 0:29:45Johnson from the Greens. Firstly, let's List A talk about minimum
0:29:45 > 0:29:51pricing. John McAlpine, presumably you are delighted, it has been five
0:29:51 > 0:29:59or six years?It has been a long time and a vindication for the
0:29:59 > 0:30:01government, they have stuck with this bold policy and may have been
0:30:01 > 0:30:10vindicated.I was going to ask you, what happens now? Is there
0:30:10 > 0:30:12legislation in place that automatically a minimum price cuts
0:30:12 > 0:30:16in Scotland or does it have to be taken through Parliament?There will
0:30:16 > 0:30:21be a statement on Tuesday by the minister that will outline the next
0:30:21 > 0:30:24steps, but my understanding is they are going to consult on further
0:30:24 > 0:30:29aspect of it before it actually becomes law.But you are pretty
0:30:29 > 0:30:35confident it will go ahead and there will be minimum pricing?Yes, and
0:30:35 > 0:30:38what this means is I think a lot of other governments, from what I am
0:30:38 > 0:30:41the stand, a lot of other governments and subnational
0:30:41 > 0:30:44governments are looking at this, because the World Health
0:30:44 > 0:30:48Organisation recommended a long time ago that pricing was an important
0:30:48 > 0:30:51way of cutting alcohol related deaths. I think Scotland is leading
0:30:51 > 0:30:58the world on this. There are other countries that will follow.
0:30:58 > 0:31:04Miles Briggs, as I understand it, the Conservatives are not against
0:31:04 > 0:31:11this?We have said that we will support this, because we need to
0:31:11 > 0:31:16address Scotland's problem with alcohol. Just recently we have seen
0:31:16 > 0:31:20the Government move to cut alcohol partnership funding. It was
0:31:20 > 0:31:25Conservative pressure that made them reverse that, and we need to look at
0:31:25 > 0:31:28how to address this issue in Scotland, and this policy could save
0:31:28 > 0:31:34up to 120 lives, so that is why we have supported it.So you don't buy
0:31:34 > 0:31:38the arguments of the opponents who say it worked in fact save lives in
0:31:38 > 0:31:42the way it is advertised, and who say that you would be better off
0:31:42 > 0:31:45using taxation as a way of controlling alcohol consumption and
0:31:45 > 0:31:51not using pricing?This is why we have said that as part of
0:31:51 > 0:31:55legislation we can see how this works and part of when it was going
0:31:55 > 0:31:58through Parliament originally before it faced the legal challenges it
0:31:58 > 0:32:01has, we said it should have a sunset clause so that in five years' time
0:32:01 > 0:32:08we can review it and see if it is delivering the outcome we to see.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12Rhoda Grant, what is Labour's position on this? You are quite
0:32:12 > 0:32:23happy with this?We need to see more, we will wait to see what
0:32:23 > 0:32:25happens on Tuesday, hopefully they will put more policies in place to
0:32:25 > 0:32:29back this up, one of those will be how do we make sure that the
0:32:29 > 0:32:33additional money raised from this doesn't just go into the pockets of
0:32:33 > 0:32:36the big supermarkets, but actually is used in Scotland to counteract
0:32:36 > 0:32:40the effects of alcohol abuse.But the money would go into the pockets
0:32:40 > 0:32:47of retailers. As I understand it, there is no suggestion that this is
0:32:47 > 0:32:50a tax increase, simply an order to put the prices up, so whoever put
0:32:50 > 0:32:54the prices up keeps the money?That is how it looks on the face of it,
0:32:54 > 0:32:57but I would hope that the Scottish Government would look at ways we
0:32:57 > 0:32:59could be met money from the big supermarkets to make sure that it
0:32:59 > 0:33:05was used to counteract the effects of alcohol, and that is why in a way
0:33:05 > 0:33:09taxation would be better. We don't have the ability to put taxation on
0:33:09 > 0:33:13alcohol and the Scottish Parliament, but we need to find a way to make
0:33:13 > 0:33:16sure that this funding doesn't just boost profits but is used in the
0:33:16 > 0:33:22places that need it most.And the Greens are in favour of this as
0:33:22 > 0:33:25well?The Greens have supported this from the very beginning, we
0:33:25 > 0:33:30absolutely have supported the Government, and it has been decided
0:33:30 > 0:33:33this is a proportionate means of delivering a legitimate aim, to
0:33:33 > 0:33:38improve Scotland's relationship with alcohol. We know that too many
0:33:38 > 0:33:41people drink too much, the medical organisations and many other
0:33:41 > 0:33:45organisations across Scotland will be read pleased that today has
0:33:45 > 0:33:49finally come and we can move on this. We drink markedly more than
0:33:49 > 0:33:53our neighbours in England even, and I think this is an important step in
0:33:53 > 0:33:56the right direction, but as colleagues have said, it is part of
0:33:56 > 0:34:01the solution, not all solution.Joan McAlpine, if we swing back to you.
0:34:01 > 0:34:07I'm curious as to what you make of Rhoda Grant's idea, on the face of
0:34:07 > 0:34:11it it will be retailers who keep the money. Do you think that's right? Or
0:34:11 > 0:34:16do you think there should maybe be examination given in some way to
0:34:16 > 0:34:22which that could be changed.The way that it would be changed would be to
0:34:22 > 0:34:27give the Scottish Parliament powers over a wider range of taxation,
0:34:27 > 0:34:33including the ability to tax alcohol. But Rhoda Grant's party
0:34:33 > 0:34:36opposed the full fiscal autonomy that we put forward in the Smith
0:34:36 > 0:34:41commission for a wider range of tax powers.But presumably you could
0:34:41 > 0:34:44taxi from markets for example, all retailers, in such a way that it
0:34:44 > 0:34:47would draw the money back even though they keep the money in the
0:34:47 > 0:34:51first place?I'm not sure that this is the time and place to speculate
0:34:51 > 0:34:56as to who you are going to tax and those kind of details have to be
0:34:56 > 0:35:01looked at very carefully. My understanding is that the
0:35:01 > 0:35:05fundamental point of this is to reduce alcohol-related deaths which
0:35:05 > 0:35:12rose in the last year, and identical we should be distracted from that.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16Rhoda Grant, let's swing background to you. I wanted to ask you about
0:35:16 > 0:35:25Alex
0:35:25 > 0:35:31Alex Rowley, he has stood aside as your leader in the interim. Anas
0:35:31 > 0:35:35Sarwar and Kezia Dugdale think that he should be removed as leader, what
0:35:35 > 0:35:40do you think?I will answer that, but could I go back to the previous
0:35:40 > 0:35:43question, we could have a social responsibility levy, which will put
0:35:43 > 0:35:48the money in the public offers to deal with our call abuse, and I hope
0:35:48 > 0:35:53very much that the Minister will say that on Tuesday.Before you talk
0:35:53 > 0:35:58about Alex Rowley, is that like attacks the supermarket?Yes, on
0:35:58 > 0:36:01those who sell alcohol, so those are the people who are going to make the
0:36:01 > 0:36:04money. It wouldn't be a tax because they would be getting more money so
0:36:04 > 0:36:08they would lose out, but that would make sure that the money came back
0:36:08 > 0:36:11to Scotland and could be spent on rehabilitation partnerships and the
0:36:11 > 0:36:15like to deal with the problems that alcohol abuse causes. So that is
0:36:15 > 0:36:23within the power of the Scottish Government.And an Alex Rowley?I
0:36:23 > 0:36:26have sympathy with that view. I think those allegations that have
0:36:26 > 0:36:31been made which he refuse are extremely serious, and I think the
0:36:31 > 0:36:39party and Alex need the time to investigate those allegations, so I
0:36:39 > 0:36:43think it would probably be sensible to look at suspension from the
0:36:43 > 0:36:48party.So whoever, then, is there a number three who would automatically
0:36:48 > 0:36:54become in charge?I believe the party will be making an announcement
0:36:54 > 0:36:58on that soon, so don't push me to make that announcement on air right
0:36:58 > 0:37:04here. It's not me.But there is no automatic number three?No, but
0:37:04 > 0:37:11there will be a leader put in place very shortly.Miles Briggs, I guess
0:37:11 > 0:37:18not fair to ask you to comment in detail about this, but do you think
0:37:18 > 0:37:25it has happened in the right way?I think it will be a full police
0:37:25 > 0:37:28investigation, and it is happening in the right way, but I think as
0:37:28 > 0:37:34Rhoda said, it has to take place on the right way, and I don't want to
0:37:34 > 0:37:39comment on the details.I'm not aware that anybody has said that it
0:37:39 > 0:37:41would be a police investigation.In terms of these allegations where
0:37:41 > 0:37:45they have now been sent is the point I am making, as far as I know they
0:37:45 > 0:37:49have been sent to newspapers, but I don't know if they have also been
0:37:49 > 0:37:54forwarded.I just wanted to make that clear. Joan McAlpine, the
0:37:54 > 0:37:59interesting thing I guess for your party is that Labour, Alex Rowley
0:37:59 > 0:38:02has not been suspended from the Labour Party, he hasn't he stood
0:38:02 > 0:38:05aside as interim leader, but there are calls from leading figures for
0:38:05 > 0:38:12him to be suspended, and there were calls for mark Mcdonald to be
0:38:12 > 0:38:16suspended from the SNP. Which of these approaches do you think is the
0:38:16 > 0:38:23better, if there is a better?I think in terms of being suspended
0:38:23 > 0:38:28from the Labour Party, that is a matter for the Labour Party. We have
0:38:28 > 0:38:31clearly read these allegations, they are very serious allegations, but
0:38:31 > 0:38:35they are allegations, and I think it's important that such allegations
0:38:35 > 0:38:41are properly investigated before we start talking about what the
0:38:41 > 0:38:45repercussions should be.OK, Alison Johnstone, just a chance for you to
0:38:45 > 0:38:51comment on that.I think we are discussing this issue as it affects
0:38:51 > 0:38:55a parliamentarian at the moment, but this is an issue that has broader
0:38:55 > 0:38:58ramifications across society, and it really is time that we make sure
0:38:58 > 0:39:03that every pupil in every school in Scotland has access to education
0:39:03 > 0:39:08around consent and personal space. We want to get to a real zero
0:39:08 > 0:39:13tolerance of this issue so that none of my colleagues or I ever come on
0:39:13 > 0:39:17TV again to ask if we've experienced sexual harassment in our workplace
0:39:17 > 0:39:22or anywhere else.Just be very careful legally about this, we
0:39:22 > 0:39:25should say that we don't know whether the issue of consent for
0:39:25 > 0:39:30example is at stake or any of these issues, but we will take your
0:39:30 > 0:39:35general point.I wasn't suggesting that, I was just saying we need
0:39:35 > 0:39:42better education.A very quick round on Brexit. Rhoda Grant, will they be
0:39:42 > 0:39:46a rebellion, and should there be?I think it really depends on the deal
0:39:46 > 0:39:52that is going to be put forward. The Government coming forward with eight
0:39:52 > 0:39:55take it or leave it deal, either we accept the deal that they negotiate
0:39:55 > 0:39:59or we crash out, I don't think it is tenable. There has to be discussions
0:39:59 > 0:40:04about how that goes forward, and I think Theresa May appeared this week
0:40:04 > 0:40:07to be reaching out to Nicola Sturgeon. I think she needs to reach
0:40:07 > 0:40:11out a lot further than that to try to build some consensus so that
0:40:11 > 0:40:17there is a deal that everyone can coalesce around.Very quickly, Miles
0:40:17 > 0:40:27Briggs. Are you a Remainer or a
0:40:27 > 0:40:32Briggs. Are you a Remainer or a Leave?I welcome the fact that the
0:40:32 > 0:40:36Prime Minister and Nicola Sturgeon are now engaging positively. We now
0:40:36 > 0:40:39need to move on from some of the grievance and look to achieving the
0:40:39 > 0:40:43best possible deal now for Scotland and the United Kingdom, and to
0:40:43 > 0:40:50respect devolution but also protect the single market.A very quick
0:40:50 > 0:40:55comment from Joan McAlpine.I think it is worrying that the SNP
0:40:55 > 0:41:02amendment in the event of no deal fell this week. The choice is
0:41:02 > 0:41:05between not between the status quo and no deal, it is between no deal
0:41:05 > 0:41:10and disaster, and that is very worrying.Sorry, Alison Johnstone,
0:41:10 > 0:41:13you didn't get a chance to have your say, should there be a rebellion,
0:41:13 > 0:41:18what should happen?We have to make sure that Scotland's voice is heard
0:41:18 > 0:41:21loud and clear, and that isn't happening at the moment, and we will
0:41:21 > 0:41:26be insisting that that is the case. Thank you all very much indeed.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29Let's come back to the minimum pricing, because what you were
0:41:29 > 0:41:33saying when you are talking about a nudge, the whole way this is talked
0:41:33 > 0:41:36about, putting prices up by a certain amount will deter people
0:41:36 > 0:41:39because it is so expensive, but you suggested that that is not the
0:41:39 > 0:41:44point.Any government could do that, the Scottish Government could have
0:41:44 > 0:41:51raised, got the taxes raised on alcohol. This is an attempt to
0:41:51 > 0:42:01target alcopops and cider, cheap forms of alcohol that kids drink,
0:42:01 > 0:42:05people with alcohol problems. It is an attempt to target very
0:42:05 > 0:42:11specifically the prices of those rather than hurt other forms of
0:42:11 > 0:42:17alcohol, wine, whiskey, whatever. And clearly even at 50p per shot
0:42:17 > 0:42:24extra, it is not going to be a major impact. But it is designed to
0:42:24 > 0:42:28psychologically try and shift behaviour. And I agree, it has to be
0:42:28 > 0:42:34part of a wider package, but all the behavioural investigations that are
0:42:34 > 0:42:38done, because there have been lots of experiments done, it does seem to
0:42:38 > 0:42:43work. So why not try five years and see where we are?The thing about
0:42:43 > 0:42:47the nudge economics, does it matter what the nudges? You could say that
0:42:47 > 0:42:53the smoking ban do the same thing for smoking.The experimentation
0:42:53 > 0:42:55shows that positive nudges worked better than negative ones, that if
0:42:55 > 0:43:01you pay people, to get people to attend classes to do this, or to
0:43:01 > 0:43:05take their children to that, if you just pay them a little bit, it acts
0:43:05 > 0:43:11as a psychological incentive. Human beings psychology seems to be much
0:43:11 > 0:43:15more responsive to be given something to help them along rather
0:43:15 > 0:43:18than saying, you can't do it.In that sense, neither minimum pricing
0:43:18 > 0:43:23or the smoking ban counts as a positive?It is a package, it is in
0:43:23 > 0:43:30the round, and clearly there is an issue with companies underpricing
0:43:30 > 0:43:37alcohol, and for the cheap stuff in there.We will have to leave it
0:43:37 > 0:43:42there, but the point is this as a whole new scope economics.Yes!We
0:43:42 > 0:43:44will leave it there.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46That's all we've got time for today.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48My colleague Brian Taylor's back tomorrow at midday
0:43:48 > 0:43:50with First Minister's Questions, and I'll be back this weekend
0:43:50 > 0:43:51with Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54Until then, goodbye.