:00:26. > :00:31.Lady Thatcher, the Iron Lady leaves Parliament for the last time.
:00:31. > :00:33.Also coming up: Good news on the jobs front.
:00:33. > :00:38.Scottish unemployment falls below 200,000 for the first time in three
:00:38. > :00:44.years. The half muffled bells of St Paul's
:00:44. > :00:47.Cathedral rang out this morning as the Kelvin of Lady Thatcher
:00:47. > :00:52.completed its -- the coffin of Lady Thatcher completed its procession
:00:52. > :00:54.for a ceremonial funeral in the presence of the Queen and Prime
:00:54. > :00:58.Minister. Politicians joined the mourning Thatcher family for the
:00:58. > :01:05.service. Joining me is our Westminster correspondent. Is life
:01:05. > :01:12.at Westminster returning to normal? Here at Westminster, things are
:01:12. > :01:17.getting back to normal this afternoon. The traffic is flowing,
:01:17. > :01:20.the barriers are down. It has really been a chance for the political
:01:20. > :01:23.establishment to pay tribute to Margaret Thatcher. Yesterday, her
:01:23. > :01:27.coffin was brought here to the Palace of Westminster. It stayed
:01:27. > :01:35.here overnight and it was from the Palace that the coffin left, owing
:01:35. > :01:41.along Whitehall, passing Downing Street. It passed the Scotland
:01:41. > :01:43.Office where the saltire was flowing at half mast. Her decisions on
:01:43. > :01:49.Scotland, for example people tax, where some of the most
:01:49. > :01:53.controversial. St Paul's Cathedral, those who had served with her in her
:01:53. > :01:59.Cabinet and those who had opposed her, gathered for the funeral
:01:59. > :02:05.service. It was not overtly political but, even so, on an
:02:05. > :02:15.occasion like this, politics, to some extent, would have to pay their
:02:15. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:53.mark. Here is the flavour of the remember, before God, Margaret Hilda
:02:53. > :03:09.
:03:09. > :03:15.CONGREGATION SINGS Have I discovered Joy or am I still
:03:15. > :03:21.looking for it in externals outside myself? Margaret Thatcher had a
:03:21. > :03:27.sense of this which she expressed in her address to the General Assembly
:03:27. > :03:37.of the Church of Scotland when she said, "I leave you with the earnest
:03:37. > :03:38.
:03:38. > :03:48.hope that may we all come near to that other country whose ways are
:03:48. > :03:48.
:03:48. > :04:52.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 64 seconds
:04:52. > :04:55.ways of gentleness and all her parts crematoria service for Baroness
:04:55. > :05:03.Thatcher, where they can see their private goodbyes to her. It is fair
:05:03. > :05:10.to say that, in death as in life, she was one of those figures who
:05:10. > :05:18.divided opinions one way or another. Her legacy will be debated at home,
:05:18. > :05:28.and abroad, and particularly Scotland, for many years to come.
:05:28. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:43.Interesting to see the ship of London talking. It is extraordinary.
:05:43. > :05:52.More than 25 years ago that she made that speech in Edinburgh. Yet, still
:05:52. > :06:01.people are raising questions about it. It was not overtly political.
:06:01. > :06:11.The Bishop of London felt that he had to mention something about
:06:11. > :06:23.
:06:24. > :06:26.that. Those who hold. The policies that she stood for of what an
:06:26. > :06:28.inspirational, to some, to others a figure that they revile. Love her or
:06:28. > :06:30.hate her, she was in very important figure.
:06:30. > :06:32.There has been a surprise boost to Scottish economic, covering the end
:06:32. > :06:35.of last year. There has been an improvement in the Scottish job
:06:35. > :06:37.figures with a big rise in implement. Fewer than 200,000 are
:06:37. > :06:40.looking for work. -- fewer than 200,000 are looking for the first
:06:40. > :06:42.time in four years. Douglas, talk to the latest figures who have. Writing
:06:42. > :06:45.a lot of data. The big surprise was around gross domestic product which,
:06:45. > :06:48.in this case we expected Scotland was going to be in somewhere like
:06:48. > :06:51.the same position, maybe not quite as bad, but in fact there was growth
:06:51. > :06:54.of 0.5%. It might be explained by a bit of an unwinding about what
:06:54. > :06:56.happened in an earlier part of the year. Over the wall of last year, we
:06:56. > :06:59.saw the same level of growth. These came from the office of National
:06:59. > :07:03.statistics. This survey covered December to February. Looking back
:07:03. > :07:08.to that period, the UK figures are pretty poor today. 70,000 more
:07:08. > :07:12.people looking for work during that period. In Scotland, by contrast,
:07:12. > :07:21.11,000 fewer people looking for work. As you said, it fell below
:07:21. > :07:25.200,000, to 197,000, the first time since 2009. The number of people who
:07:26. > :07:31.are in work, not looking for it, that rose by 39,000. The strongest
:07:31. > :07:39.growth we have had in 12 years. The strongest growth in the UK, that
:07:39. > :07:48.fell by 2000. Scotland doing pretty well, big contrast. By all of these
:07:48. > :07:51.measures, the rest of the UK still struggling along. . How can we
:07:51. > :08:01.explain that difference Partly, an unwinding of what happened early in
:08:01. > :08:04.
:08:04. > :08:09.the year. It may be that the effect of the data, the economy, still
:08:09. > :08:14.bumping along the bottom pulled back the UK economy and Scotland catches
:08:14. > :08:19.up. In fact, Scotland and the UK have, throughout this downturn, been
:08:19. > :08:29.very similar. Now, we are looking at unemployment in Scotland of 7.3%.
:08:29. > :08:32.
:08:32. > :08:35.The UK, 7.9%. That is the bigger gap we have seen. Some things make you
:08:35. > :08:39.wonder about the reliability of the data. One interesting thing is that
:08:39. > :08:42.because oil and gas production from the North Sea is counted as
:08:42. > :08:47.something that is not Scottish, it counts towards the UK figures but
:08:47. > :08:54.not Scottish, it dragged down output because we have had a very steep
:08:54. > :08:58.fall, and unexpected steep fall, in output of the gas fields in the
:08:58. > :09:05.latter half of last year. It dragged down the UK output. Scotland had had
:09:05. > :09:10.its geographic share, it would have seen much worse than it was.
:09:10. > :09:15.Interesting to be that amount. Eddie Barnes, when John Swinney, the
:09:15. > :09:22.Finance Secretary, looks at these figures, he must be ready pleased?
:09:22. > :09:26.Absolutely. As Douglas said, the jobs figures are extremely good,
:09:26. > :09:31.nobody is denying that. There is a small caveat there are about how
:09:31. > :09:36.much of those people are going into employment are part-time or
:09:36. > :09:41.self-employed. We are seeing a big growth in part-time employment.
:09:41. > :09:45.There is an issue there about how many people are finding full-time
:09:45. > :09:52.work. On the GDP figures, it is an interesting political debate today.
:09:52. > :09:56.As Douglas said, was the oil figures. There is almost an
:09:56. > :10:00.inversion of the way the oil figures are being used. The UK Government
:10:00. > :10:05.briefing that, had oil being counted in Scotland, their GDP figures would
:10:05. > :10:15.be much worse. It is because of the fact that oil is going to within the
:10:15. > :10:17.
:10:17. > :10:22.UK that it is all a statistic nominee. -- statistical anomaly. It
:10:22. > :10:26.just shows that in different cases, different issues are raised. Maybe
:10:26. > :10:29.the Scottish Government has been taking credit for what is happened,
:10:29. > :10:36.but I have seen a few press releases from the Lib Dems and Labour are
:10:36. > :10:39.saying not to be complacent. There is a longer-term issue here which is
:10:39. > :10:45.the job figures and GDP is not that dissimilar in Scotland to the rest
:10:45. > :10:50.of the UK. I don't think people will be whooping about this and saying, "
:10:50. > :10:53.here we go! " . The longer term picture is still one of very slow
:10:53. > :10:58.growth. It is hard to see how we will get out of that. Thank you to
:10:58. > :11:03.both of you. Let's return to the Lady Thatcher
:11:03. > :11:11.funeral. Let's cross to the Garden Lobby at Holyrood. Good afternoon
:11:11. > :11:15.Brian. What is the mood at Holyrood today? Maybe slightly different from
:11:16. > :11:20.Westminster. There were one of two parliamentarians who were there. The
:11:20. > :11:25.First Minister, the Presiding Officer and the leader of the
:11:25. > :11:32.Scottish Kirk observed -- leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Most
:11:32. > :11:37.people are talking about the funeral. Perhaps one to mumbling to
:11:37. > :11:40.themselves bars of the music. If you are talking about the remarks from
:11:40. > :11:45.the Bishop of London when he referred to Lady Thatcher 's
:11:45. > :11:49.comments about society. That issue of whether there is or is not
:11:49. > :11:53.society and what it accounts for is the topic of the debate that was due
:11:53. > :11:57.to take place today but is now taking place tomorrow. With that
:11:58. > :12:01.debate being moved, a very controversial debate, what has the
:12:01. > :12:08.discussion been at Holyrood today? Are people examining what decisions
:12:08. > :12:11.were taken and why it was moved? think it was, ultimately, that the
:12:11. > :12:16.party, the Greens and the independents, who wanted the debate
:12:16. > :12:21.to be held today because this is their chance to hold the debate.
:12:21. > :12:24.When given the opportunity to older tomorrow, all of the other parties,
:12:24. > :12:28.were suggesting gently, and sometimes not so gently, that this
:12:28. > :12:37.would not be a very good idea, would not be good for the parliament and
:12:37. > :12:40.project a good image for the parliament. They agreed to move it.
:12:40. > :12:43.It will have a beneficial effect with regard to the debate itself. It
:12:43. > :12:45.is entirely legitimate to debate the legacy of Margaret Thatcher and all
:12:45. > :12:50.for the policy ethos that underpins politics here in Scotland, right
:12:50. > :12:54.now. That is certainly, as I understand it, what Patrick Harvie
:12:54. > :12:59.of the Greens intends to do. He will speak first in the debate tomorrow.
:12:59. > :13:02.He's opening the debate on the issue of Margaret Thatcher and society. He
:13:03. > :13:08.will argue that it is not about the legacy but about what sort of
:13:08. > :13:11.Scotland, he will argue, could be created post independence. It is
:13:11. > :13:16.very interesting that the Greens did change their minds. Even late on
:13:16. > :13:22.Monday night, they seemed ready entrenched in their position.
:13:22. > :13:25.pressure upon them was very substantial indeed. Ultimately, the
:13:25. > :13:29.Scottish Parliament is good at organisation. The business could
:13:29. > :13:32.have been altered over their heads, using the Government 's majority.
:13:32. > :13:35.That could have been done. The Government, obviously, did not want
:13:35. > :13:39.to do that. That would be interfering in the business of
:13:39. > :13:43.another party. These party days, days that are allocated to
:13:43. > :13:46.individual parties or party groups, they are very jealously guarded and
:13:46. > :13:55.regarded as very important because it is an opportunity for opposition
:13:55. > :13:57.parties to set the agenda rather than always being government
:13:57. > :14:00.business ought business emanating from legislation or committees. They
:14:00. > :14:03.did not want to that. It was made clear that all the other parties
:14:03. > :14:07.were against it and that she would frown fairly vigorously on the
:14:07. > :14:12.debate is taking place today. It will be advantageous but it takes
:14:12. > :14:17.place tomorrow. It will be more open, it will allow the
:14:17. > :14:27.Conservatives to participate, they may speak very ruthlessly and robust
:14:27. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:38.politicians attending today's funeral. He spoke about Margaret
:14:38. > :14:43.Thatcher's legacy in Scotland. was her social policies that set the
:14:43. > :14:46.ball rolling for a renewed vigour for a Scottish parliament. It is
:14:46. > :14:54.that overwhelming desire among people in Scotland to escape from
:14:54. > :14:59.the social bedlam of the 1980s, it was the result of Margaret Thatcher.
:14:59. > :15:04.She set the ball rolling to make Scottish self-government a huge
:15:04. > :15:13.priority and that ball is still rolling fast. In that respect,
:15:13. > :15:17.people should reflect that in some ways she helped Scottish democracy.
:15:17. > :15:24.So there is a sense in which she was somewhat of a gift to opposition
:15:24. > :15:28.politicians? She was not a gift in the sense that, I would argue that
:15:28. > :15:35.many of her policies were extremely divisive and when you have divisive
:15:35. > :15:42.policies people suffer, and many suffer unnecessarily. Much of that
:15:42. > :15:46.resentment is still alive many years later. But nonetheless, in terms of
:15:46. > :15:52.what changed between 1979, when there was a narrow vote in favour of
:15:52. > :15:57.a parliament, and in 1997 when there was an overwhelming vote in favour
:15:57. > :16:05.of Parliament, people realised if they wanted to avoid such a policy
:16:05. > :16:08.agenda again they had better have a democratic parliament in Scotland. I
:16:08. > :16:13.am sure that Margaret Thatcher would have been disappointed in that but I
:16:13. > :16:18.hope she would have seen the irony at least will stop in that respect,
:16:18. > :16:26.we should reflect on the fact that was a consequence of her approach to
:16:26. > :16:32.politics. I am joined again by Eddie Burns. The first Minister was in the
:16:32. > :16:37.congregation at the funeral service. He accepted the invitation, saying
:16:37. > :16:40.he was there representing the people of Scotland. As was the first
:16:40. > :16:47.Minister of Wales and other political leaders from across the
:16:47. > :16:52.country and the world. As has been said over and over again, she was a
:16:52. > :16:56.titanic figure. That remains the case. What I thought was interesting
:16:56. > :17:02.today, there were a lot of people who came out despite what happened
:17:02. > :17:08.in Boston two days ago. I thought that might make a difference. And
:17:08. > :17:11.people still have very strong opinions about this. And the Greens
:17:11. > :17:21.debate anti-Thatcher legacy, it is still have that resonance, doesn't
:17:21. > :17:23.
:17:23. > :17:28.it? -- and the Thatcher legacy. There was maybe time for a bit more
:17:28. > :17:35.reflection. We have seen a second analysis of her legacy so this
:17:35. > :17:40.question tomorrow which I think is looking at whether there is such a
:17:40. > :17:44.thing as society, the Bishop of London in his sermon today actually
:17:44. > :17:48.took on this point and made the point that in his field that had
:17:48. > :17:56.been widely misunderstood. That is another issue MSPs will have to
:17:56. > :18:02.reflect on tomorrow. It seems like almost being back to the 1980s. We
:18:02. > :18:09.saw a lot of the characters from the 1980s at the funeral. All those
:18:09. > :18:16.figures still alive, all attending the funeral. Absolutely. You realise
:18:16. > :18:22.just how much time has passed when you see many of them but, as I just
:18:22. > :18:25.said, the issues are still very current. There has been a lot of
:18:25. > :18:30.controversy about the magnitude of the funeral and David Cameron and
:18:30. > :18:38.George Osborne there. Has it been difficult for them to face up to
:18:38. > :18:43.this and the legacy? I don't think for George Osborne but particularly
:18:43. > :18:48.for David Cameron. Every single Conservative leader since Margaret
:18:48. > :18:53.Thatcher was driven out of Downing Street has had her shadow. David
:18:53. > :18:59.Cameron acknowledged that today in the interviews he had beforehand. He
:18:59. > :19:07.has had to distance himself from her prior to when he took over the
:19:07. > :19:13.leadership and became prime minister. But all his decisions, his
:19:13. > :19:23.mannerisms, his approach to the job, now that he is in that
:19:23. > :19:24.
:19:24. > :19:27.position, they are judged on that and on her standing. Watching the
:19:28. > :19:33.funeral and looking at Twitter at the same time, George Osborne looked
:19:33. > :19:39.quite upset and it did seem that David Cameron did seem to yawn
:19:39. > :19:43.during one of the hymns. I think you will see that in the newspapers
:19:43. > :19:49.tomorrow, the contrasting image of David Cameron laughing at a joke the
:19:49. > :19:59.Bishop was making at the same time George Osborne seem to be crying.
:19:59. > :20:06.And a lot of this will probably come up in the debate tomorrow. I think
:20:06. > :20:16.they will pick up on this point which the bishop may today about the
:20:16. > :20:20.
:20:20. > :20:26.misunderstanding that has taken place in his view over the" there is
:20:26. > :20:30.no society" comment. The truth of it has rather got blurred in the
:20:30. > :20:36.intervening period and that is the challenge. The Conservatives
:20:36. > :20:43.probably have to try and take that on tomorrow. Thank you very much.
:20:43. > :20:48.Instead of the Greens debate on the Thatcher legacy, MSPs on debating
:20:48. > :20:50.the procurement reform bill at Holyrood. They say more needs to be
:20:50. > :21:00.done to allow small and medium-sized businesses to benefit from
:21:00. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:09.government contracts. Nearly half of that goes direct into
:21:09. > :21:17.small firms employing fewer than 50 people. We have got a shared service
:21:17. > :21:21.platform which processes over �5 billion of transactions every year.
:21:21. > :21:28.As I announced yesterday to the new crime campus, we now have a
:21:28. > :21:37.situation where 80 % of supply is awarded contracts through the public
:21:37. > :21:47.portal are based in Scotland and 68 % our Scottish -based SMEs. The fact
:21:47. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:53.is, more Scottish -based businesses than ever before are winning
:21:54. > :21:55.business with the Scottish public sector and I think we should
:21:55. > :22:05.celebrate that, but there is still much work to do. This leaves me in
:22:05. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:15.no doubt that it is positive. But we need to address as many of the
:22:15. > :22:19.frustrations as we can. Before I talk more about particular aspects
:22:19. > :22:25.of the reform programme, it is important to mention the context.
:22:25. > :22:30.Public Procurement Bill governed by a detailed, conferences and often
:22:30. > :22:34.complex European laws. They are the product of a policy that at European
:22:34. > :22:39.level is intended to promote economic growth by opening up
:22:39. > :22:43.markets. We might not agree with every aspect of European law, in
:22:43. > :22:47.fact we do not agree with every aspect of European law, but we
:22:47. > :22:54.should always strive to work with maximum flexibility. But we are
:22:54. > :22:59.bound by these rules. A point has been made already that Scottish
:22:59. > :23:04.businesses themselves benefit from these rules when they win contracts
:23:04. > :23:12.internationally as they frequently do. However, seeking to influence
:23:12. > :23:19.European law is very important and I have been pleased to see the
:23:19. > :23:26.cross-party collaboration of our members of the European Parliament
:23:26. > :23:30.in trying to share European procurement. Ministers have
:23:30. > :23:34.supported that position directly with the commission. So far we have
:23:34. > :23:40.not been successful in securing that change but that should not
:23:40. > :23:47.deteriorate from continuing to lobby vigorously at EU level for sensible
:23:47. > :23:55.reform. Just on a question of timing, does the Minister in ten to
:23:55. > :24:00.wait until the EU process of reform is further down the line before a
:24:00. > :24:05.bill is introduced yet? Or does she intend to proceed before we know
:24:05. > :24:09.what the outcome of the European process will be? We hope to
:24:09. > :24:13.introduce the bill before the summer recess. We are required to give
:24:13. > :24:20.ourselves comfort that what we are proposing in that bill is going to
:24:20. > :24:27.be within the confines of the revised European directive. I will
:24:27. > :24:30.keep Parliament updated on that timescale. In taking forward our own
:24:30. > :24:35.reforms, I think it is vitally important that we are both aware of
:24:35. > :24:40.and that we are very frankly recognise the tension that will
:24:40. > :24:44.inevitably be at the heart of any approach to procurement. On the one
:24:44. > :24:49.hand, we want the system to help businesses grow and become more
:24:49. > :24:54.competitive. On the other hand, we can't ignore opportunities to save
:24:54. > :25:00.money so we need to strive to strike the right balance. That is what we
:25:00. > :25:05.are seeking to do in our approach to procure and reform. An essential
:25:05. > :25:10.element is the proposed procurement reform Bill. Consultation closed
:25:10. > :25:16.late last year. We have had responses from a wide range of
:25:16. > :25:20.interests. The analysis was published earlier this year and the
:25:20. > :25:23.findings are helping inform the final content of the bill. I hope
:25:23. > :25:30.the bill will hence this accelerated improvements in the system and make
:25:30. > :25:35.sure that in major contracts we add additional value, whether that is
:25:35. > :25:39.economic, social or environmental value. It will also help to tackle
:25:39. > :25:42.unnecessary inconsistencies. I and will make sure that doing business
:25:42. > :25:49.with the public sector is simple, more transparent and more accessible
:25:49. > :25:52.for suppliers. While European law does not allow it to discriminate in
:25:52. > :26:02.favour of indigenous businesses, moving the barriers in pretty woman
:26:02. > :26:12.markets can and will -- procurement markets can and will improve the
:26:12. > :26:14.
:26:14. > :26:20.situation. Using the bill to promote standardisation will improve value
:26:20. > :26:23.for money and reduce cost. No wait, presiding officer, is that more
:26:23. > :26:30.important than in the construction sector, which is facing particular
:26:30. > :26:35.challenges. Last October we launched a fundamental review of construction
:26:35. > :26:38.procurement and we want to see the sort of improvements delivered for
:26:38. > :26:42.goods and services procurement over recent years replicated for
:26:42. > :26:49.construction. I know the industry is desperate to see improvements as
:26:49. > :26:54.well. Back to Eddie Barnes once again.
:26:54. > :27:01.Public Procurement Bill form can sound a little dry but I suppose it
:27:01. > :27:05.is a rich source of revenue for many of these businesses. She sounds like
:27:05. > :27:11.she is trying to cut away the red tape to make it simple, transparent
:27:11. > :27:15.and accessible for small businesses to access. It is a constant
:27:15. > :27:20.complaint and it is not going to get an awful lot of news coverage but it
:27:20. > :27:30.is a constant complaint of small to medium-sized businesses. The red
:27:30. > :27:31.
:27:31. > :27:34.tape is too much to get involved in these public sector contracts. It is
:27:34. > :27:40.very important that the public sector is there to sustain
:27:40. > :27:45.businesses that need it. It is crucial stuff. On the biggest gale,
:27:45. > :27:52.we have seen the outcry over the Forth Road Bridge, these things can
:27:52. > :27:57.become very controversial. Labour say not enough is being done to help
:27:57. > :28:03.small and medium-sized businesses. But it sounded like she was
:28:03. > :28:07.addressing those points. In the little clip you had there, there is
:28:08. > :28:11.an issue of new legislation, the difficulty of being able to favour
:28:11. > :28:16.indigenous companies over a company from elsewhere on the continent that
:28:16. > :28:21.may have a more efficient case. At a time when there is not an awful lot
:28:21. > :28:26.in the public purse, this is a major tension because it sounds very easy
:28:26. > :28:31.to say, let's favour the company down the road or support on social
:28:31. > :28:34.grounds, but if you don't have much money as a local authority or a
:28:34. > :28:40.national government, you may well be tempted to go for the lowest bid and
:28:41. > :28:48.many people will say quite rightly. You mentioned the European aspect.
:28:48. > :28:52.Far be it from me to say that European redtape is a corrugated
:28:52. > :29:01.process but I think she said it. There are reform is going on at
:29:01. > :29:04.European level as well. That's right. There is always that attempt
:29:04. > :29:09.by politicians, whatever level, that they are going to try and get rid of
:29:09. > :29:14.redtape. There is a reason why the redtape is there in the first place
:29:14. > :29:18.and it is not that easy to cut it back. When it comes to these big
:29:18. > :29:23.companies that seem to profit from government contracts, why is it
:29:23. > :29:33.easier for them to get hold of these contracts? Is it because they have
:29:33. > :29:39.
:29:39. > :29:49.the expertise? From what I understand, they are bigger firms
:29:49. > :29:49.
:29:49. > :30:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 64 seconds
:30:37. > :30:41.who have not got the manpower. you have the private sector not
:30:41. > :30:46.doing that in the public sector consolidating and having to run it
:30:47. > :30:51.back where are the options. Thank you. There were no Prime Minister's
:30:51. > :30:54.Questions at Westminster today, postponed for Lady Thatcher 's
:30:54. > :30:56.funeral. Senior Scottish politicians, from
:30:56. > :31:00.across the political divide, attended the service. Our
:31:00. > :31:08.correspondent joins us now from London.
:31:08. > :31:12.Thank you. A different feel about Westminster over the past 48 hours.
:31:12. > :31:17.Traffic is back to normal, the barriers have come down. Business
:31:17. > :31:25.will be getting back to normal. Today is very much aid of
:31:25. > :31:31.reflection. Joining me in our for Scottish -- joining me are four
:31:31. > :31:38.Scottish politicians. Ming Campbell, you are at the service, how did it
:31:38. > :31:41.strike you? Was it a state funeral or something more restrained? Much
:31:41. > :31:46.more restrained. There were quite a lot of trappings outside but once we
:31:46. > :31:50.were inside St Paul's Cathedral, the music was wonderful. It was a
:31:50. > :31:53.quintessentially English occasion. I was sitting beside an Anglican
:31:53. > :31:57.priest who said to me, everything that has been said and done would
:31:57. > :32:02.have been said and done in a country church in Yorkshire with only 50
:32:02. > :32:07.people present. It was as Mrs Thatcher wanted it to be. I don't
:32:07. > :32:10.think we should be concerned about it being English. Of course, nothing
:32:10. > :32:17.was more Scottish than John Smith's funeral which I also attended some
:32:17. > :32:22.years ago. In what has been said and written the last ten days, since the
:32:22. > :32:29.death of Lady Thatcher, where, from a Scottish perspective, or Scottish
:32:29. > :32:34.Labour perspective, should we reflect? It is interesting, when I
:32:35. > :32:39.spoke with constituents on Thursday about the events, they were capable
:32:40. > :32:46.of distinguishing about the sympathy that they would feel for a parent
:32:46. > :32:50.who -- a childhood lost a parent and the policies of the governments that
:32:50. > :32:58.she led in the 1980s. Whilst there was recognition of the harm that was
:32:58. > :33:02.suffered, Dublin of job 40, de-industrialisation, but there was
:33:02. > :33:08.a sympathy that a Prime Minister should be treated with respect. --
:33:08. > :33:10.doubling of child poverty. We know that the Scottish National Party or
:33:10. > :33:15.opposed to much of what happened under Margaret Thatcher 's
:33:15. > :33:24.leadership. Putting a bit of distance to it, what is her legacy
:33:24. > :33:28.in Scotland? You will have to forgive me. I saw the daughter and
:33:28. > :33:33.son of Baroness Thatcher watching her cough and been carried away but
:33:34. > :33:37.he will forgive me, on a deal like this, it is absolutely right and
:33:37. > :33:45.proper to stress that, remind yourself that we are talking about a
:33:45. > :33:48.funeral and then move onto a cremation of the first female Prime
:33:48. > :33:51.Minister the UK. My views are well known. The views of the SNP are
:33:52. > :33:56.well-known. I think, perhaps on another day, there is a discussion
:33:56. > :33:59.to be had. Today, for me, in faulty funeral, cremation and I would
:33:59. > :34:02.rather reflect on that than going into the political divisions that we
:34:02. > :34:10.have. We know they are very significant but I don't think today
:34:10. > :34:18.is the day to be abating dose. -- involved a few rural. From a
:34:18. > :34:21.Scottish Conservative point of view, what were your feelings? I think the
:34:21. > :34:24.funeral was a wholly appropriate way of recognising Mrs Thatcher 's
:34:24. > :34:31.memory, both from the point of view of her family and the point of view
:34:31. > :34:34.of the nation. It was a recognition of the significant individual who
:34:34. > :34:38.was the dominant political figure, not just here in the United
:34:38. > :34:43.Kingdom, but across the world in the 20th century. Also, a mother and
:34:43. > :34:50.grandmother. One of the most moving part of the service was when her
:34:50. > :34:53.granddaughter read one of the lessons. I think it was clearly the
:34:53. > :35:00.send-off that Mrs Thatcher would have wanted, in terms of what
:35:00. > :35:04.happened in St Paul's Cathedral and the reaction of the public outside
:35:04. > :35:09.shows the strong positive feelings that many people still have for Mrs
:35:09. > :35:14.Thatcher across the United Kingdom. It is a question I want to put the
:35:14. > :35:19.job you, the theory that Donald Dewar had that said he was the
:35:19. > :35:22.father of devilish and, he said that everything that happened with
:35:22. > :35:27.Scotland in the 1980s, Margaret Thatcher was the mother of
:35:27. > :35:36.devolution. She was an influence. I'll became a member of Parliament
:35:36. > :35:41.in 1987, in what was a recognised Conservative seat, because there was
:35:41. > :35:45.such antipathy to Thatcherism. There was no formal pact but an electoral
:35:45. > :35:51.pact to give support to the opposition party that was best able
:35:51. > :35:54.to beat the Conservative Government. She had a significant impact on
:35:54. > :35:59.building support for devolution, in terms of some of the policies of the
:35:59. > :36:02.Government she was involved with that lets not forget, the devilish
:36:02. > :36:08.and debate began decades before her period of government. The
:36:08. > :36:13.declaration of Perth, just before I was born, so, yes, she was
:36:13. > :36:16.significant in terms of the debate but, I think, the will of the
:36:16. > :36:22.Scottish people was beginning to form itself for even her period in
:36:22. > :36:26.office. I think what she showed is that ideas matter in politics. If
:36:26. > :36:29.you have a big idea, that you translate into politics, it gets
:36:29. > :36:39.things done. That is what people respect in politics. She showed that
:36:39. > :36:40.
:36:40. > :36:43.can be done. I grew up in the 1980s as a teenager. Frankly, it was
:36:43. > :36:47.because of a lot of things that Margaret Thatcher was doing in
:36:47. > :36:52.government that I became active in government, not because I supported
:36:52. > :36:55.it but because I opposed it. There are a lot of people throughout
:36:55. > :37:00.Scotland whose politics were very influenced by that experience,
:37:00. > :37:04.recognising that we do stand for community and society across the
:37:04. > :37:07.parties, at least most of us in Scotland and value that is being
:37:07. > :37:12.tremendously important. To that extent, I think Margaret Thatcher
:37:12. > :37:15.did the role because her government was not elected with a majority in
:37:15. > :37:19.Scotland get her policies when imposed, just such as the poll tax
:37:19. > :37:24.in Scotland. She definitely had an influence. At the end of the day, it
:37:24. > :37:27.was the people that decided that we wanted to move beyond that to have a
:37:27. > :37:33.government that we elect to make the important decisions that matter. To
:37:33. > :37:38.that extent, the way she governed throughout the 1980s did help people
:37:38. > :37:42.come to that view about devolution and, I think, also helped a lot of
:37:42. > :37:45.people come to the conclusion on independence. Of course, it could be
:37:45. > :37:51.argued that Margaret Thatcher was the mother of devolution, people
:37:51. > :37:55.have done so. Above all, she was a Democrat and that is how devilish
:37:55. > :38:00.and came about in Scotland. Democracy. It was the will of the
:38:00. > :38:02.Scottish people, demonstrated in the ballot box. That was ultimately what
:38:02. > :38:06.Margaret Thatcher respected throughout her career. She always
:38:06. > :38:10.stood up for those people who wanted to speak freely. I think, not just
:38:10. > :38:16.in Scotland, not just in Britain, but one of the real significance of
:38:16. > :38:19.today is the way in which Mrs Thatcher is regarded throughout the
:38:19. > :38:24.world and the part she played in opening up eastern Europe, bringing
:38:24. > :38:27.the end to communism and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Today's funeral was
:38:27. > :38:34.not just about Mrs Thatcher in Britain but about her in the world.
:38:34. > :38:38.It was an entirely appropriate way to respect that and to advance the
:38:38. > :38:44.contribution that she clearly made, not just here in Britain but across
:38:44. > :38:53.the world. I am very grateful for all of your thoughts. Thank you very
:38:53. > :38:57.much. A flavour of some of the thoughts here at Westminster on the
:38:57. > :39:04.day that the funeral took place of Margaret Thatcher, the first and, so
:39:04. > :39:07.far only, Prime Minister of Great Britain.
:39:07. > :39:12.Just before we get some more political reaction, I am joined by
:39:12. > :39:16.Eddie Barnes from the Scotsman. Interesting to see the mood at
:39:16. > :39:22.Westminster, essentially. The politicians they were rather
:39:22. > :39:26.subdued, perhaps not need a for debating her legacy. Not just at
:39:26. > :39:32.Westminster. I think people are recognising that this is a funeral
:39:32. > :39:37.has taken place. There is also a concern, I think we have seen this
:39:37. > :39:42.over the last week, not to play politics too overtly with this at a
:39:42. > :39:45.time when somebody has died. There is a risk that there is a backlash
:39:45. > :39:55.against that. Even the protests that have been arranged in George Greer
:39:55. > :39:57.
:39:57. > :39:59.today, they not until this evening, not until the general has taken
:39:59. > :40:02.place. -- George Square. Most people recognise, if fully for their own
:40:02. > :40:05.sakes, there is a need to be careful.
:40:05. > :40:12.Our correspondent joins us now from Holyrood. Let's speak to Patrick
:40:12. > :40:17.Harvie, also. Thank you all for joining me. Alex Johnstone, where
:40:17. > :40:21.you able to watch the funeral this morning? Your reaction. You'll like
:40:21. > :40:24.I was in committee at the start but was able to watch the end of the
:40:24. > :40:30.live coverage. I thought it was a suitable and appropriate
:40:30. > :40:31.commemoration for a woman who is, without a doubt, the finest
:40:31. > :40:35.peacetime Prime Minister this country has ever had.
:40:35. > :40:45.Did you feel the skill of the funeral was I think it was very
:40:45. > :40:49.appropriate appropriate. -- I think it was very appropriate. She took on
:40:49. > :40:54.some of the most fundamental problems of this country and dealt
:40:54. > :41:00.with them. We will spend generations banking error.
:41:00. > :41:06.Will be justified the scale? Is it because she took the country to war?
:41:06. > :41:09.Does it set a precedent for someone like Tony Blair, who could equally
:41:09. > :41:15.matched those claims? I don't think Tony Blair can match that record at
:41:15. > :41:19.all. Thatcher was a political colossus. If there is anything that
:41:19. > :41:23.pays due respect that it is what has happened in terms of the protest
:41:23. > :41:28.over the Daft lefties have been out in George Square and out in the
:41:28. > :41:33.House of Commons, and even here in the Garden Lobby of the Houses of
:41:33. > :41:37.Parliament, commemorating a fight which they took on a generation ago
:41:37. > :41:41.and lost heavily. They have commemorated a defeat and by doing
:41:41. > :41:44.so they also have paid their respects to Margaret Thatcher.
:41:44. > :41:52.Patrick Harvie of the Greens, I sure he was not referring to you as the
:41:52. > :41:56.Daft lefty. I can't think he meant! To be honest, I was dealing with
:41:56. > :42:00.correspondence and my office. I did not have much interest in the media
:42:00. > :42:04.event that has been dulled around this, the attempt to turn Margaret
:42:04. > :42:07.Thatcher into some mythic figure. I don't buy that and I think it is
:42:07. > :42:12.much more important to debate the legacy of the political ideas that
:42:12. > :42:20.she represented. They are still dominant. I find that very
:42:20. > :42:23.regrettable. Alex Johnstone no doubt things that a marvellous thing that
:42:23. > :42:26.we are still installed with a free-market and the privatisation
:42:26. > :42:31.agenda that has failed us so abysmally. We have seen the chickens
:42:31. > :42:34.come home to roost in the last years with a collapse of an economic model
:42:34. > :42:39.that Margaret Thatcher pioneered, new Labour continued and that we
:42:39. > :42:45.desperately need to challenge an overturned. More at any second.
:42:45. > :42:48.Stewart Maxwell, how did you spend the morning? Mister Salmond was in
:42:48. > :42:53.the congregation. He was there representing the people of Scotland.
:42:53. > :42:56.Of course. It was right and proper that the First Minister attended the
:42:56. > :43:03.funeral on behalf of the people of Scotland. I spent the morning
:43:03. > :43:05.working. I did not see any of the funeral coverage, apart from a quick
:43:05. > :43:08.snatch on one of the televisions in another office as I passed. My
:43:08. > :43:14.responsibility was to carry on my work as an MSP for the people of
:43:14. > :43:18.Scotland. Also, to work on my committee work. The big controversy
:43:18. > :43:23.this week, of course, has been the Scottish Greens and Independents
:43:23. > :43:27.going to have their debate on Thatcher 's legacy. It was meant to
:43:27. > :43:35.be debate and moved at the last minute. As Patrick said, it is still
:43:35. > :43:38.a big debate to have. He will happen It is an important debate to have
:43:38. > :43:42.but the parliamentary bureau made the right decision in ensuring that
:43:43. > :43:46.it did not take place today. It will take place tomorrow with the
:43:46. > :43:50.Conservatives are here at full strength unable to defend the record
:43:50. > :43:56.of Margaret Thatcher in the way that we. She is a political colossus, as
:43:56. > :44:00.I said, and we need a good, strong representation for the memory of
:44:00. > :44:05.Margaret Thatcher in tomorrow's debate. How much pressure did you
:44:05. > :44:08.put on Patrick Harvie to have that debate moved? It would not be fair
:44:08. > :44:12.to say there was an enormous amount of pressure! Perhaps, it is a
:44:12. > :44:22.tribute to the system that we use, the parliamentary bureau, that
:44:22. > :44:30.
:44:30. > :44:34.common sense was arrived at at the has taken place would have been an
:44:35. > :44:38.appropriate time to have the debate. Others disagreed and the bureau
:44:38. > :44:43.reached a compromise that I hope everybody is happy with, that we do
:44:43. > :44:52.take forward the debate. I think having the debate tomorrow might
:44:52. > :44:56.lead to a more robust debate. tribute to the great leader. If she
:44:56. > :45:02.had been faced with it, I hope she would have cancelled her own funeral
:45:02. > :45:06.rather than be a bit oversensitive about it but I hope members who
:45:06. > :45:10.might have been tiptoeing around sensitivities are ready for a robust
:45:10. > :45:14.exchange of views and a debate about Scotland's future because Scotland
:45:14. > :45:17.is about to make a decision about its own constitutional future and I
:45:17. > :45:22.think there are people on both sides of that debate will be able to find
:45:22. > :45:26.some common ground in terms of the kind of society we ought to be
:45:26. > :45:31.looking to build and moving away from that centre-right consensus
:45:31. > :45:41.that has been dominant for far too long. You don't seem too pleased it
:45:41. > :45:41.
:45:41. > :45:49.was moved. How did you reach that compromise? Were you overruled?
:45:49. > :45:54.we had been discussing the issue for some days in advance. As the mood
:45:55. > :45:59.became clear, it was a reasonable compromise to make and we made that
:45:59. > :46:04.decision on the Tuesday morning before the bureau and during the
:46:04. > :46:07.bureau when we heard what everyone's views were. It is a
:46:07. > :46:15.reasonable compromise and I hope everyone is willing to accept, move
:46:15. > :46:20.on and have the debate. Stewart Maxwell, when it comes to Margaret
:46:20. > :46:26.Thatcher's legacy, people have said independence will be a Thatcherite
:46:26. > :46:34.agenda. No corporation tax, business friendly, you have taken a lot of
:46:34. > :46:40.the ideas on board. I don't recognise that future at all.
:46:40. > :46:42.Thatcher is the past. It is a government I grew under. It is
:46:42. > :46:48.something I'd fought against them and I would fight against in the
:46:48. > :46:53.future. I want to see a bright future for Scotland. I want to make
:46:53. > :46:58.it a business friendly future for Scotland so we can grow employment.
:46:58. > :47:02.Figures out today show higher employment and that is a real
:47:02. > :47:08.tribute to the Scottish government, taking an alternative route to the
:47:08. > :47:12.UK government even within the limited powers we have. Tomorrow, we
:47:12. > :47:18.want to look forward and see a vision of Scotland which is green
:47:18. > :47:22.but also enterprising and a better future for our children. Ken Clarke
:47:22. > :47:30.said Thatcher's legacy has been a free-market economy coupled with a
:47:30. > :47:35.social conscience. Is that what the SNP believes? We believe in a social
:47:36. > :47:39.democratic future and a safety net in terms of social services. We want
:47:39. > :47:45.to make sure the old and the vulnerable are properly taken care
:47:45. > :47:49.of. But we also believe in an economy which is growing, which is
:47:49. > :47:52.active, which is friendly to business but not a free for all in
:47:52. > :48:00.terms of a right-wing agenda that Margaret Thatcher pursued in the
:48:00. > :48:04.early 1980s. I think that would be bad for Scotland. I think it has
:48:04. > :48:11.been proved to be bad for Scotland in terms of the legacy left by the
:48:11. > :48:16.Thatcher government. It is time we moved away from that agenda. We can
:48:16. > :48:20.only do that through independence. Let's turn the corner into the
:48:20. > :48:29.employment statistics. Alex Johnstone, are you going to
:48:29. > :48:35.congratulate them for the fact that unemployment is down by 11,000?
:48:35. > :48:39.think the figures are exceptionally good but the truth is, Scotland and
:48:39. > :48:43.the rest of the UK follow a very similar pattern in terms of these
:48:43. > :48:48.figures but they are slightly out of sync which means in some quarters
:48:48. > :48:53.Scotland appears better and in others, Scotland appears worse. We
:48:53. > :48:57.have got used to the idea that every time the figures are announced, it
:48:57. > :49:03.is George Osborne's fault if they are worse, and if they are better,
:49:03. > :49:13.it is John Sweeney's achievement. I think that is a misleading way to
:49:13. > :49:14.
:49:14. > :49:20.approach this. I want to say it is a product of George Osborne's
:49:20. > :49:25.achievement. There is a press release today saying the UK economy
:49:25. > :49:32.is declining but Scotland is in growth. Scotland GDP figures
:49:32. > :49:42.included offshore oil and gas production. Without those, it would
:49:42. > :49:44.
:49:44. > :49:47.have fallen. I think that is a nonsensical argument. We keep
:49:47. > :49:53.hearing this argument that if you did not have oil and gas, your
:49:53. > :49:57.economy would be in a worse state. But we do have land gas and they are
:49:57. > :50:01.part of our economy. Nobody says it would be a disaster for the
:50:01. > :50:11.Norwegian economy if they did not have all learned gas because they
:50:11. > :50:15.
:50:15. > :50:22.do. It is a nonsensical argument. -- oil and gas because they do. In
:50:23. > :50:28.Scotland, we are doing all we can to deal with the powers we have two
:50:28. > :50:38.make sure we have proper growth in our economy. Is this positive news
:50:38. > :50:39.
:50:39. > :50:45.for Scotland? It is too early to make sadistic analysis of short-term
:50:45. > :50:50.figures. Let's be honest, the long-term trends are still looking
:50:50. > :50:54.very difficult and neither government is measuring some of the
:50:54. > :50:59.things that matter such as the quality of employment, not just the
:50:59. > :51:03.amount of employment. Whether the new jobs being created on low wage
:51:03. > :51:11.and are therefore subsidised by the welfare state, which is itself being
:51:11. > :51:18.cut dramatically. And when it comes to oil and gas, we are still running
:51:18. > :51:27.the kind of economy which says, bizarrely, that the faster you use a
:51:27. > :51:32.finite resource, the richer you are. That is nonsensical. Patrick Harvie,
:51:32. > :51:35.Alex Johnstone, Stewart Maxwell, thank you for joining me. Lord
:51:35. > :51:39.McCluskey has criticised Westminster's proposals for press
:51:39. > :51:44.regulation, saying it would set a wonderful example for Putin and
:51:44. > :51:48.Mugabe and other dictators. He was giving evidence to the education and
:51:48. > :51:57.culture committee who are looking at whether the Royal Charter should be
:51:57. > :52:03.extending to Scotland following the phone hacking scandal. First of all,
:52:03. > :52:08.the enquiry sat for a year and the words Royal Charter were never used
:52:08. > :52:15.in the entire enquiry except in relation to passing it to the BBC.
:52:15. > :52:19.He never considered the merits of that. It suddenly emerged on
:52:19. > :52:24.February 12 in circumstances that are well known to the press after
:52:24. > :52:28.the press men lay down a number of red lines for the government
:52:28. > :52:32.negotiator, the Conservative party negotiator, I should say. And then
:52:33. > :52:38.they emerged with the Royal Charter. The Royal Charter does not go
:52:38. > :52:41.through Parliament, it is not subject to the amendment or
:52:41. > :52:46.legislative consent motion in Scotland, so you will be denied a
:52:47. > :52:51.voice. Take a very important question, who should be brought
:52:51. > :52:55.within the jurisdiction of the body? We have said the printed press
:52:55. > :53:04.and the online versions of it and pointed to various definitions of
:53:04. > :53:07.other countries and other statues. That decision is one that ought to
:53:07. > :53:14.be taken by an elected parliament who is within the range of this
:53:14. > :53:18.administrative body. Not by a Royal Charter. We have adopted the same
:53:18. > :53:23.definition as the Royal Charter because we copied the one from the
:53:23. > :53:33.Department of culture, media and sport, but that all to be looked at
:53:33. > :53:33.
:53:33. > :53:37.by legislators, not decided in smoke-filled rooms. The privy
:53:37. > :53:43.Council consisting of those the Prime Minister says come to the
:53:44. > :53:47.meeting. I have already made the point that Putin and Mugabe must be
:53:47. > :53:51.rubbing their hands with glee at the idea they can issue a decree in
:53:52. > :54:01.which they determine all these rules. What a terrible example for
:54:02. > :54:02.
:54:02. > :54:09.us to offer to the world. Bypass the legislature in all these matters. In
:54:09. > :54:17.relation to Scotland, the idea that the Scottish press is immune from
:54:17. > :54:21.what happened in England is complete nonsense. Glenn Mull K, and those
:54:21. > :54:29.who have been identified in England, whether they worked for News
:54:29. > :54:32.International, their words were printed, as David has said, in
:54:33. > :54:42.Scotland, and I can't emphasise enough the importance of the four
:54:43. > :54:43.
:54:43. > :54:53.cases that figured. The idea that somehow the Scottish press are fully
:54:53. > :54:54.
:54:54. > :54:59.of blemish is hogwash. How do you think Scotland should proceed? Do
:54:59. > :55:03.you think Scotland should ignore the Royal Charter? If the gamble is
:55:03. > :55:09.right, and it may well be right because it is not written in
:55:09. > :55:14.Scottish terms, Scotland is not mentioned, it probably does not
:55:14. > :55:20.apply to Scotland. The regulation of the press having been devolved to
:55:20. > :55:26.Scotland, if the Royal Charter does not apply, Scotland has got no
:55:26. > :55:31.regulation at all and our advice, plainly, is we can do it in
:55:32. > :55:38.Scotland. To that extent we have drafted a bill which is only a very
:55:38. > :55:43.provisional bill in which you define as elected members to whom the
:55:43. > :55:49.jurisdiction should apply and you can enact it. In Ireland, where they
:55:49. > :55:59.went through this process, the daily express conforms to their code, and
:55:59. > :55:59.
:55:59. > :56:06.so does the Spectator and everybody else. The Irish government made it
:56:06. > :56:11.plain, if you don't sign up, we will make legislative compulsory. In
:56:11. > :56:18.Scotland, we don't write the regulatory code, let the editors do
:56:18. > :56:26.that, but the enforcement mechanism has got to love -- say that if we
:56:26. > :56:30.don't move in the right way, we will have two regulate you ourselves.
:56:30. > :56:35.Lord McCluskey's view is that the press is going to fail anyway but
:56:35. > :56:41.the enquiry has clearly given them the last opportunity to get their
:56:41. > :56:46.house in order. It is not saying you are going to fail. It recommended
:56:46. > :56:52.alternative dispute resolution, it recommended the cost issue, and it
:56:52. > :56:59.recommended exemplary damages. I accept exemplar we damages cannot
:56:59. > :57:04.play a part because they are not part of Scots law. But why throw
:57:04. > :57:11.away everything on the basis of that one issue? Why not proceed on the
:57:11. > :57:17.basis of a Royal Charter if we are able to do that, with the removal of
:57:17. > :57:21.the issue of exemplary damages? Let's return to our main topic today
:57:22. > :57:31.and get thoughts of Eddie Barnes on Margaret Thatcher's funeral. Will
:57:32. > :57:32.
:57:32. > :57:36.the legacy debate continue for ever? It is still the day of the funeral.
:57:36. > :57:41.I think there will be a lot of politicians in Scotland and
:57:42. > :57:49.throughout the UK who would like to move on. The whole legacy of
:57:49. > :57:53.Thatcher is has dominated politics for so long -- Thatcherism. In some
:57:53. > :57:58.ways, we saw with the Labour Party to years ago in the Scottish
:57:58. > :58:02.elections that they still thought that on the basis of Thatcherism and
:58:02. > :58:07.they got absolutely thrashed. There is a feeling among a lot of
:58:07. > :58:17.politicians that they would like to leave that now and move on. David
:58:17. > :58:18.
:58:18. > :58:25.Cameron faces those challenges. People have been criticising him for
:58:25. > :58:30.the so-called bedroom tax. There are new issues and the same debates will
:58:30. > :58:36.go on between right and left on welfare reform. But many of these
:58:36. > :58:40.issues have got caught up within the mythology of Margaret Thatcher and a