:00:17. > :00:20.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:21. > :00:24.On today's programme, we'll be bringing you the latest
:00:25. > :00:29.And the price of fish - after years of wrangling
:00:30. > :00:31.between fishermen and Brussels, stocks are finally
:00:32. > :00:40.But will the fishery be sustainable after Brexit?
:00:41. > :00:43.With me throughout the programme today is political
:00:44. > :00:46.And joining us both for the top of the programme, having
:00:47. > :00:57.deserted his usual weather-beaten spot on College Green for the warmth
:00:58. > :00:59.and dry of the studio, is our Westminster correspondent
:01:00. > :01:08.I think a lot of people are thinking, when is this campaign
:01:09. > :01:13.going to kick off? We are waiting for the manifesto, and then three or
:01:14. > :01:17.four start coming along all at once. We are getting them in quick
:01:18. > :01:21.succession. Labour yesterday, the Liberal Democrats today. The
:01:22. > :01:24.Conservatives tomorrow. And then we will get the Scottish ones as well
:01:25. > :01:28.and we will really find out what the parties are planning and what
:01:29. > :01:35.they're trying to sell to the electorate. Everyone says this
:01:36. > :01:38.election is about Brexit, but in what meaningful sense is it about
:01:39. > :01:42.Brexit? I think it is about Brexit if your south of the border. Up here
:01:43. > :01:45.it has obviously got a very different feel to it. It is a
:01:46. > :01:50.referendum on a second independence referendum. But even in England, do
:01:51. > :01:53.you think it really is about Brexit? I think it is, and about who the
:01:54. > :01:59.voters think is best going to be positioned to achieve that. I think,
:02:00. > :02:04.when you talk to the poor south of the border, they say, we may not
:02:05. > :02:08.have voted for Brexit but we now accept that it is going to happen,
:02:09. > :02:12.and they are then now looking for who they think is the best person to
:02:13. > :02:16.deliver that. Now, the Conservatives are very much trying to frame that
:02:17. > :02:21.as a Brexit election, whereby also they asked the question, who is
:02:22. > :02:25.going to be the best leader, potentially Theresa May or Jeremy
:02:26. > :02:29.Corbyn? Jimmy Corbyn and the Labour Party are trying to frame it on, it
:02:30. > :02:32.is more than that, it is about the type of United Kingdom that you want
:02:33. > :02:38.a mother rolled you want for the state... Well, it is a little bit
:02:39. > :02:44.about Brexit, but not very much, from Labour's point of view? From
:02:45. > :02:47.Labour's point of view, they want to keep it off Brexit as they do not
:02:48. > :02:53.see that as a strong point. Brexit is an issue which divides the Labour
:02:54. > :02:56.Party, certainly in England. You only have to look at the number of
:02:57. > :03:00.people who left Labour to go to Ukip, and if the local elections are
:03:01. > :03:05.to be believed, those Ukip voters are now not going back to Labour,
:03:06. > :03:10.they are going to the Conservatives. That is a problem for Labour, they
:03:11. > :03:15.like to keep away from Brexit. And what is going to give this a
:03:16. > :03:18.much-needed kick to get it going? We could do with a fantastic gaffe or
:03:19. > :03:23.something like that, where a politician goes off message will get
:03:24. > :03:29.into a row with a constituent. But what you are finding now is, the
:03:30. > :03:31.campaigns, as they go on, more and more they are trying to be
:03:32. > :03:36.controlled. Very rarely are the politicians getting out as they used
:03:37. > :03:41.to, on the stump, to speak to voters. That just doesn't happen, it
:03:42. > :03:45.is all far more controlled. Is that true with Jeremy Corbyn as well as
:03:46. > :03:49.Theresa May? Well, Corbyn is tending to go to areas where he is
:03:50. > :03:56.surrounded by core supporters. Very red Leeward usage Jeremy Corbyn on a
:03:57. > :04:02.street where you might find people who would not like him. So, in that
:04:03. > :04:06.respect, it is being controlled. -- very rarely would you find Jeremy
:04:07. > :04:11.Corbyn... His own supporters are very impressed with him, but his
:04:12. > :04:19.visits are not completely open, in the old-fashioned sense of the
:04:20. > :04:23.world. Gerry, in Scotland, Behrami have the SNP as well, which is
:04:24. > :04:30.different, but are they going to have anything interesting? To me,
:04:31. > :04:35.general elections there is like World Cups. If you take that
:04:36. > :04:42.analogy, it is a competition which has not yet begun. As David is
:04:43. > :04:49.saying, the politicians are in a bubble, we do not have that lady
:04:50. > :04:57.having that conversation with Gordon Brown, or in 2001, when John
:04:58. > :05:00.Prescott thumped voter. We need something, if not that kind of
:05:01. > :05:07.magnitude, something which cuts through. People watch elections,
:05:08. > :05:11.they see images passing them on the TV screen, they see the beginning of
:05:12. > :05:16.the news and the end of the news... I was going to say, is it about
:05:17. > :05:22.impressions, rather than...? David, for example, Diane Abbott's now
:05:23. > :05:29.famous interview, I'm not sure it's famous because people go and watch
:05:30. > :05:32.the interview, or is it just that it sticks, it gives the general
:05:33. > :05:37.impression that Labour don't know what they're talking about? Because
:05:38. > :05:41.it was out of the ordinary. Normally, when politicians go on the
:05:42. > :05:45.media, they know they will get questions about the policy, how much
:05:46. > :05:49.is it going to cost, is it going to be deliverable? They should be
:05:50. > :05:52.prepped on those questions and they should be able to answer them. When
:05:53. > :06:00.you get a politician who comes on the programme and says, actually,
:06:01. > :06:04.it's going to be ?30 a year, and then has a couple of goes, and keeps
:06:05. > :06:07.getting it wrong, it is the type of thing which people are going to
:06:08. > :06:15.remember. But I think you're right... In a broad brush? Yes, it
:06:16. > :06:19.feeds into the oppression that this politician may or may not know what
:06:20. > :06:25.they're talking about. It might reinforce people's impressions. Dr
:06:26. > :06:29.Gerry Hassan, we will be speaking to you more in a moment. But first...
:06:30. > :06:32.In recent years, the North Sea's fish bounty has been
:06:33. > :06:35.After the boom years of the '60s and early '70s,
:06:36. > :06:37.stocks declined to critical levels in many species.
:06:38. > :06:40.Not any more - cod catches are at levels many younger skippers
:06:41. > :06:42.have never seen before, and there has been a dramatic
:06:43. > :06:46.It's come after years of bitter wrangling between the EU
:06:47. > :06:47.and fishermen over quotas and fish discards.
:06:48. > :06:49.However, the recovery certainly suggests the EU fisheries
:06:50. > :06:52.policy has been a success, but there are now fears
:06:53. > :06:54.about the continued sustainability of the fishery after Brexit.
:06:55. > :06:57.Well, I'm joined now on the phone from Shetland by Simon Collins
:06:58. > :07:06.from the Scottish Fishermen's Association.
:07:07. > :07:15.Simon Collins, there are some fears that once the Common Fisheries
:07:16. > :07:21.Policy is taken away, there could be something of a free for all? That's
:07:22. > :07:25.right. What the fishing industry here wants is control over our
:07:26. > :07:30.waters, and to manage them. The reaction might be, it's going to be
:07:31. > :07:35.these guys grabbing all they can, free from EU. That however is
:07:36. > :07:41.completely wrong. From where I'm sitting in Shetland, for example, a
:07:42. > :07:45.fisheries dependent community, our future depends on healthy fisheries.
:07:46. > :07:49.Have no choice but to be responsible, and we intend to be
:07:50. > :07:54.that. And that is true for the whole of the Scottish industry. Just to be
:07:55. > :08:02.clear, it is quite complicated area, even after Brexit, there will have
:08:03. > :08:08.to be some agreement, treaty or something, between Britain and not
:08:09. > :08:10.just EU countries but all other countries, including countries like
:08:11. > :08:18.Norway, to regulate what happens in the North Sea? Absolutely. And it is
:08:19. > :08:24.critical that those decisions, how much can be taken out, are based on
:08:25. > :08:27.science. That will not change. There will not be one more fish taken out
:08:28. > :08:32.of the sea than there is at the moment. What we hope with Brexit is
:08:33. > :08:36.that we will be in a position to obtain a fairer share of that
:08:37. > :08:41.sustainable catch. That is the issue. So there will still be some
:08:42. > :08:46.kind of international treaty, it is just that you hope the share which
:08:47. > :08:52.goes to the UK stroke Scotland is bigger. Now, there's all of this
:08:53. > :08:57.talk about the powers over fisheries being devolved to Scotland or not.
:08:58. > :09:01.What is your perspective on that, do you want all the powers devolved to
:09:02. > :09:04.Scotland or are there matters which have to be in the hands of the
:09:05. > :09:08.British Government? Something is constitutionally have to be by the
:09:09. > :09:13.way things are negotiated internationally. One would hope
:09:14. > :09:17.however that the Scottish and UK governments would organise
:09:18. > :09:21.themselves before any such talks to make sure that the right negotiating
:09:22. > :09:27.points are understood by all different parts of the UK. When the
:09:28. > :09:33.guys are out at sea, looking at very productive fisheries, they want it
:09:34. > :09:38.to work. Constitutional arrangements at UK level and Scottish level are a
:09:39. > :09:43.long way away, they are looking at the result, and that result is their
:09:44. > :09:47.quotas and sustainable fishing. There are a lot of people who think
:09:48. > :09:51.the best way of running fisheries is when they're soft controlled and the
:09:52. > :09:57.fishermen themselves have a stake in fishing sustainably, even if it
:09:58. > :10:02.means they have to forego catches in the short to medium-term. Is it any
:10:03. > :10:06.more likely that you could get a locally managed system like that
:10:07. > :10:14.after Brexit than it was before? Yes, it is, absolutely. One of the
:10:15. > :10:21.big problems of the Common Fisheries Policy was the inability to direct
:10:22. > :10:27.things from a regional perspective, or a Scottish perspective, and it
:10:28. > :10:32.was very blunt, for that reason. We would absolutely look for management
:10:33. > :10:37.decisions to be closer to the fishing grounds, with input from
:10:38. > :10:40.those who are seeing what is happening on the ground every single
:10:41. > :10:49.day. Simon Collins, thank you very much for that. It is one of these
:10:50. > :10:53.hugely complicated areas, fisheries, Gerry, but if you seems to be, from
:10:54. > :10:58.the little I know, that the more local management you have, the
:10:59. > :11:01.better. So you can see why it is odd, it is perhaps one of the few
:11:02. > :11:10.communities in Scotland where there was big support for leaving the EU?
:11:11. > :11:17.Definitely, an Aberdeen university study found around 90% of fishermen
:11:18. > :11:21.is trusting the Common Fisheries Policy. But you can see, in some
:11:22. > :11:24.sense, it has delivered, because stocks are rising in the North Sea
:11:25. > :11:28.with all sorts of fish. There is this issue of sustainability, not
:11:29. > :11:33.just for the fish but for the communities. An awful lot of those
:11:34. > :11:40.jobs are very, very low-paid jobs, jobs which require all sorts of
:11:41. > :11:44.benefits and a high percentage of those jobs are also not British. 28%
:11:45. > :11:51.of all fishing jobs are not a British-born. It is the people who
:11:52. > :11:53.come to Scotland, on low wages. So there is lots of ways in which we
:11:54. > :11:59.need to think about fishing differently. The worry would be a
:12:00. > :12:06.free-for-all, as Simon acknowledged, that the point is that once the CFP
:12:07. > :12:12.goes, everyone's got an interesting grabbing as much as they can. And
:12:13. > :12:17.there are going to be disputes over whether Britain has a 200-mile
:12:18. > :12:22.limit, whether even if it is accepted that it has, that should
:12:23. > :12:25.stop other countries coming into fish within it, and what Britain is
:12:26. > :12:31.going to do about it if they do. All of this will have to be resolved. .
:12:32. > :12:36.That's right. As you were saying in the package, the Scottish input,
:12:37. > :12:44.which has been very small until now. Nearly all the fish that we fish by
:12:45. > :12:48.our seas and our coastlines, 80% of it we export elsewhere. The fish we
:12:49. > :12:54.eat has got very little relationship with that, we import 70% of that. So
:12:55. > :12:57.we need to think of ways not only do we fish more locally, but the way we
:12:58. > :13:00.consume as well. Well, it's time now
:13:01. > :13:02.to cross live to Holyrood for the Scottish Conservative-led
:13:03. > :13:14.debate on the fisheries. Backed by the United Nations
:13:15. > :13:18.Convention. This does mean that foreign boats will never fish our
:13:19. > :13:22.waters against, but it does mean that they will fish under our rules
:13:23. > :13:29.and regulation is and that we will be in control, and that is a huge
:13:30. > :13:35.prize. That is a sea of opportunity our fishermen welcome. At the
:13:36. > :13:36.moment, 62% of the fish caught in UK waters are caught by foreign
:13:37. > :13:58.vessels. In comparison are boats only catch
:13:59. > :14:04.fish worth a mere ?100 million. Between 2012 and 2014 EU boats
:14:05. > :14:09.caught half the commercial fish, two thirds of the pelagic fish and
:14:10. > :14:14.almost all of the industrial fish in our exclusive zone. Nobody can argue
:14:15. > :14:18.this is fair. The other strand of the disaster story that the SNP try
:14:19. > :14:25.to spin is that we will lose the EU market for fish. Yes the EU market
:14:26. > :14:30.is important and we want to keep it, but I have spoken with numerous fish
:14:31. > :14:34.processors who are very relaxed about keeping their markets. They
:14:35. > :14:39.argue quite rightly that are fish are in great demand in Europe,
:14:40. > :14:46.buyers are queueing up to get the top fish we supply and is often
:14:47. > :14:50.unavailable elsewhere. It's also a fact that our stands in the Brexit
:14:51. > :14:55.negotiations is to get a comprehensive free trade deal so why
:14:56. > :15:00.should we get such a deal given a free trade deal is as much to the
:15:01. > :15:05.European benefit as ours? I will finish with a quote from Iceland's
:15:06. > :15:11.Minister for fisheries, Iceland applied to join the EU in 2009 but
:15:12. > :15:14.withdrew their application in 2015 mainly because they would have to
:15:15. > :15:24.join the CFB and did not like what they saw. In June 2016, there are
:15:25. > :15:28.fisheries minister said, "I would never join the EU, there is a life
:15:29. > :15:32.outside it as we have proven. We have one of the biggest and
:15:33. > :15:35.strongest fisheries in the world that is sustainable without any
:15:36. > :15:39.subsidies from the state. We don't have two share this decision-making
:15:40. > :15:43.with anyone else. It would be difficult for Icelanders to control
:15:44. > :15:49.the economic and fisheries sector is having to discuss it with 27 or 28
:15:50. > :15:55.other countries". Residing officer, that is the kind of future which
:15:56. > :15:58.awaits our fishing industry once we leave the outdated, bureaucratic and
:15:59. > :16:03.unreformable European Common fisheries policy and I for one
:16:04. > :16:12.welcome that future and move this motion in my name. Thank you. I
:16:13. > :16:24.don't like banging on desks. So we can just stop doing that.
:16:25. > :16:34.When we joined the EU Scottish office paper was written, this
:16:35. > :16:42.Scottish office paper remained hidden, it remained hidden for 30
:16:43. > :16:54.years. Under the UK official secrets act. What that paper said was, and I
:16:55. > :17:04.quote" in the wider UK context they, the fishermen, must be regarded as
:17:05. > :17:12.expendable". This was first quoted in Parliament in Westminster by Alex
:17:13. > :17:19.Salmond in 2001. And I am quoting from hand Sade. I will give way in a
:17:20. > :17:24.moment once I make my point. That was the true view of the UK
:17:25. > :17:29.Government at that time. That the interests of Scotland's fishermen
:17:30. > :17:35.wear expendable and indeed it was never intended that that real view
:17:36. > :17:43.would be made public because it was an official secret document and it
:17:44. > :17:48.only became public 30 years... I will give way to Mr Chapman but will
:17:49. > :17:57.he apologise now under half of the Scottish Tories for that betrayal
:17:58. > :18:02.when we were taken into the EU? Peter Chapman? We hear about
:18:03. > :18:07.something that happened 47 years ago and it wasn't even a government
:18:08. > :18:11.minister that said that. It was far more effective to look at what is
:18:12. > :18:16.going on just now, the letter from Andrea Leadsom right now says we
:18:17. > :18:20.will take back control of our waters to 200 miles, that is much more
:18:21. > :18:27.significant than quoting something from 47 years ago said by a junior
:18:28. > :18:32.official. Cabinet secretary? Presiding officer I will move on to
:18:33. > :18:38.what happened after that, let's move forward shall we? And let's move
:18:39. > :18:43.into the 80s when under Margaret Thatcher... Excuse me, set down a
:18:44. > :18:46.minute secretary, I have people be quiet for Mr Chapman and people will
:18:47. > :18:51.be quiet for the Cabinet Secretary and they do not want to hear banging
:18:52. > :18:59.on desks, you can applaud if you wish, that is much more reasonable.
:19:00. > :19:02.They can bang on the desk but they cannot undo history and do not have
:19:03. > :19:07.the guts to apologise for something they must know that was wrong,
:19:08. > :19:12.that's the interesting thing. But let's move forward and write a bit
:19:13. > :19:18.of rudimentary education. Under Margaret Thatcher in the 80s the UK
:19:19. > :19:24.Government signed us up, signed us up to the original doomed Common
:19:25. > :19:30.fisheries policy. It use your heroine that took us into the Common
:19:31. > :19:38.fisheries policy. If she is not your heroine let me know... She is? OK,
:19:39. > :19:43.we have got that clear. That was the first thing. Then in the history
:19:44. > :19:50.lesson, John Major's Tories signed us up to a revised CFB in the 1990s.
:19:51. > :19:58.What was at the heart of that? Scrapping vessels and the decimation
:19:59. > :20:02.of livelihoods. Destroying the economy and well-being in many of
:20:03. > :20:12.our coastal communities. This is fact and this is why feeling is so
:20:13. > :20:17.strong about the CFP, it is what has been happening for decades. Was Mrs
:20:18. > :20:22.Thatcher wrong when she took us in and was John Major wrong when he
:20:23. > :20:27.took us into a revised policy? It another chance to apologise, a
:20:28. > :20:32.second opportunity. You are making the point very well that we want to
:20:33. > :20:37.be out of the CFP, it is the SNP that want to keep us in there.
:20:38. > :20:41.APPLAUSE Cabinet secretary?
:20:42. > :20:43.Well, I'm afraid time waits for no man -
:20:44. > :20:45.or fish, for that matter, and we have to leave
:20:46. > :20:49.Now, amid all the general election hoo-haa, you'd be forgiven
:20:50. > :20:52.The results left many Scottish councils without any party winning
:20:53. > :20:55.enough seats for a majority, so almost immediately,
:20:56. > :20:57.the wheeler-dealing to form coalitions got underway.
:20:58. > :20:59.Joining us now is our local government
:21:00. > :21:15.We might not have any exciting general election news but you have
:21:16. > :21:20.exciting local authority news? Quite a saga unfolding in Aberdeen,
:21:21. > :21:25.basically a deal between Labour and the Conservatives was announced but
:21:26. > :21:29.there was a problem with it to put it mildly, basically the Labour
:21:30. > :21:33.National Executive Committee said no deal and essentially, if the Labour
:21:34. > :21:38.councillors involved... The Scottish executive of the Labour Party has
:21:39. > :21:42.basically said no deal. The Labour councillors in Aberdeen have gone
:21:43. > :21:47.ahead anyway and if they do not pull out by 5pm this afternoon they could
:21:48. > :21:51.face suspension from the party. A fascinating scenario there with the
:21:52. > :21:56.Labour Party, one that if the deal in Aberdeen goes ahead it could beg
:21:57. > :22:00.questions of the authority of the party leader Kezia Dugdale. This is
:22:01. > :22:06.one of these that you could not make up so let's go through it slowly.
:22:07. > :22:10.Are you saying that when Labour agreed to do the deal with the
:22:11. > :22:15.Tories in Aberdeen they knew the Scottish executive were saying we
:22:16. > :22:20.should not do it? Certainly it would have been a surprise if they didn't
:22:21. > :22:24.factor that into the equation. Before the council elections Labour
:22:25. > :22:29.did not give a 100% no deals with the Tories line in the way the SNP
:22:30. > :22:34.did but they did talk down the possibility of deals with the
:22:35. > :22:37.Tories. Kezia Dugdale would talk about how their councillors would
:22:38. > :22:40.fight austerity and find it difficult in a practical sense to do
:22:41. > :22:44.deals with the Conservatives and made that point about how the
:22:45. > :22:50.National Executive Committee would not agree to any deals... They are
:22:51. > :22:55.told in no uncertain terms no deal and they have to pull out of it by
:22:56. > :23:03.5pm this evening? Yes. And what happens if they don't? Two possible
:23:04. > :23:07.scenarios, they don't pull out, the councillors might be suspended by
:23:08. > :23:10.the party but could continue as independents. The interment of is
:23:11. > :23:15.that hours after the deal was formed it falls apart -- the alternative is
:23:16. > :23:20.that hours after the deal was formed it falls apart and it is the SNP for
:23:21. > :23:24.the single largest party on the council and they would be put into
:23:25. > :23:33.opposition. I would repeat that you cannot make this up. I think there
:23:34. > :23:40.was a TV series based on this, deal or no deal? You have this issue
:23:41. > :23:47.about how do you do deals when parties have said such profound
:23:48. > :23:52.things about each other. You have the local factors and the wider
:23:53. > :23:56.political traction of how it plays in the country. Do you think
:23:57. > :24:02.Labour's newly discovered ban on coalitions with the Conservatives
:24:03. > :24:09.might soft and somewhat after the general election or am I being
:24:10. > :24:14.cynical? I think you are facing a wider political picture where you
:24:15. > :24:18.think how anti-Tory Scotland is is slowly weakening related to the
:24:19. > :24:23.rising number of Scots that vote Tory. If the Tories do well in the
:24:24. > :24:26.popular vote may be the SNP narrative will continue ad nauseam
:24:27. > :24:32.but it delivers less political traction and there is a way in which
:24:33. > :24:37.Labour and the Lib Dems, some element of soft coalescing at least
:24:38. > :24:41.in terms of votes with the Tories. Great drama in Aberdeen, elsewhere,
:24:42. > :24:48.Angus has seen a deal which keeps the SNP out? Indeed, an SNP majority
:24:49. > :24:54.counsel not so long ago but this deal keeps the SNP out, independents
:24:55. > :24:59.and Conservatives leading the administration there. It's all a bit
:25:00. > :25:01.swings and roundabouts, in south Ayrshire of the Conservatives are
:25:02. > :25:07.the largest party but the local deal keeps them out of power. We are
:25:08. > :25:13.expecting to hear words from a couple more powers... So who is in
:25:14. > :25:20.power in South Ayrshire? The SNP of the top of my head leading the
:25:21. > :25:24.administration. With Labour? Off the top of my head I think it's SNP and
:25:25. > :25:29.Labour that are forming the new administration in South Ayrshire but
:25:30. > :25:34.that's still to be absolutely confirmed but it was a possible deal
:25:35. > :25:38.announced last week. Later this afternoon we should get news from
:25:39. > :25:42.North Ayrshire which is interesting, the SNP and Labour with an identical
:25:43. > :25:48.number of councillors and it would be hard to form an administration
:25:49. > :25:52.without at the very least tacit support from the Conservatives,
:25:53. > :25:57.maybe not ideal but at least that tacit support where they would be
:25:58. > :26:01.happy to see one of those parties in a minority administration. Thank you
:26:02. > :26:04.so much for all of that, very exciting and interesting.
:26:05. > :26:07.It's time to cross over to Holyrood now for our live line-up of lovelies
:26:08. > :26:11.They are SNP's Richard Lochhead, Liam Kerr from the Conservatives,
:26:12. > :26:13.James Kelly from Labour, Mark Ruskell from the Greens
:26:14. > :26:17.and Tavish Scott from the Liberal Democrats.
:26:18. > :26:25.James Kelly, Labour seem to be producing the new story this
:26:26. > :26:34.afternoon, what happens to your councillors in Aberdeen if they do
:26:35. > :26:38.not obey you by 5pm? Going back to the local elections, Labour
:26:39. > :26:43.candidates stood on a programme of opposing cuts and making sure the
:26:44. > :26:48.local communities were not adversely affected by council budgets. So that
:26:49. > :26:53.underpins any discussions that Labour groups are involved in
:26:54. > :26:59.throughout the country and we have made it absolutely clear that the
:27:00. > :27:02.deal proposed involving Conservatives in Aberdeen was not
:27:03. > :27:06.acceptable because it was going to introduce more austerity and
:27:07. > :27:11.therefore if that deal goes ahead we will take disciplinary action
:27:12. > :27:16.against those councillors. Which means what? It means they will be
:27:17. > :27:21.suspended from the Labour Party so their membership will be suspended
:27:22. > :27:24.and therefore the need to take serious consideration of the
:27:25. > :27:28.decisions they are about to take and also the programmes they stood on
:27:29. > :27:35.and were elected on. We want councillors elected to stand up for
:27:36. > :27:40.communities and oppose Tory and SNP cuts. Are you saying there is no
:27:41. > :27:45.blanket ban on Labour doing deals with the Tories in particular
:27:46. > :27:50.councils it's just that this individual deal you thought was
:27:51. > :27:56.objectionable? We are saying we set out a process two days after the
:27:57. > :28:01.local elections that any discussions the Labour groups took part in, if
:28:02. > :28:07.they come up with a proposal it had to be examined by the executive
:28:08. > :28:14.committee and the key criteria was did it stop austerity? Did it
:28:15. > :28:20.benefit working families? I just want to get this clear, your policy
:28:21. > :28:24.is no cuts, not now Tories? It is down to how it will affect working
:28:25. > :28:31.families in their communities, not the political parties, people.
:28:32. > :28:34.That's been made clear. Richard Lochhead what do you make of this,
:28:35. > :28:42.the largest party in Aberdeen haven't you?
:28:43. > :28:49.Listening to that, it sounds like a sketch. Firstly, I find it
:28:50. > :28:51.absolutely astonishing that the Labour Party would be prepared to go
:28:52. > :28:54.into coalition with the Conservatives in any part of
:28:55. > :28:58.Scotland. I think that would go down like a lead balloon with the people
:28:59. > :29:02.of Aberdeen. And what will also go down badly will the people would be
:29:03. > :29:08.the biggest party, the SNP, getting frozen out of these negotiations by
:29:09. > :29:11.the Labour Party. What is so good about on cello that you would
:29:12. > :29:14.happily go into a coalition with him in a local authority but you would
:29:15. > :29:22.not with the chap standing next to you? Well, no offence to Liam Kerr,
:29:23. > :29:24.but the Tories are toxic in Scotland, they support austerity,
:29:25. > :29:31.they have some really obnoxious social policies... They are
:29:32. > :29:37.pro-austerity, we have had policies like the rape clause... Excuse me,
:29:38. > :29:42.you spent years saying Labour were pro-posterity, so what is so bad
:29:43. > :29:45.about the Tories? The Tory party is like a reinvented Ukip at the
:29:46. > :29:49.moment, lurching to the right, and we don't want heading to do with
:29:50. > :29:52.helping them get their hands on budgets and councils across
:29:53. > :29:57.Scotland. I don't understand what any of that means. Explain in one
:29:58. > :30:02.sentence why it is all right for the SNP to go into coalition with
:30:03. > :30:06.Labour, but somehow it is toxic, to use your word, to do it with the
:30:07. > :30:11.Conservatives? You are supposed to be opposed to both of them, what is
:30:12. > :30:14.the difference? Councils do need administrations, that's why there
:30:15. > :30:18.are negotiations going on across Scotland. But you have just said you
:30:19. > :30:25.would not go into coalition with the fellow next to you, but you would
:30:26. > :30:28.with James Kelly - why? Our position is that going in with the
:30:29. > :30:34.Conservatives is a step too far, the idea of allowing you increasingly
:30:35. > :30:38.right-wing Conservative Party get their hands on power is a step too
:30:39. > :30:44.far. Are you happy to with anybody, James Kelly? First of all colour
:30:45. > :30:48.this idea that in some way the Conservative Party are toxic, given
:30:49. > :30:50.that we have just come off the back of council elections in which a
:30:51. > :30:54.significant number of the Scottish population have said, as do we
:30:55. > :30:59.rather like what the Conservatives are doing. How much disrespect can
:31:00. > :31:05.Richard Lochhead, with respect, show to the Scottish electorate? Sorry to
:31:06. > :31:09.interrupt you, he can show exactly the same amount of this respect as
:31:10. > :31:12.he points out you are showing his councillors in Aberdeen by freezing
:31:13. > :31:17.them out of power, despite the fact is more of them than either you or
:31:18. > :31:21.Labour? No, I think what is most important when we are looking at
:31:22. > :31:24.Aberdeen is to look at the chaos that Labour are visiting upon
:31:25. > :31:30.themselves, with on the one hand their Scottish National Party, the
:31:31. > :31:33.national party of Scotland, Labour saying, you can't do this, we're
:31:34. > :31:38.going to suspend our entire counsellor base. The councillors in
:31:39. > :31:42.Aberdeen, looking at the calibre of the Scottish Conservatives who have
:31:43. > :31:46.been elected to the council, saying, yes, that is a good deal, we want to
:31:47. > :31:49.be part of that. And frankly, on what is happening at a national
:31:50. > :31:52.level, the voters are going to the polls in a few weeks to talk about
:31:53. > :31:56.whether Jeremy Corbyn should be leading this country. Frankly, on
:31:57. > :32:02.the evidence which Labour put forward now, that has to be no. I
:32:03. > :32:09.want to speak to the other two, but first, a quick answer from you -
:32:10. > :32:13.why'd you you more than the Tories? Because you would be quite happy to
:32:14. > :32:16.do deals with the SNP, what is so great about Richard Lochhead? I made
:32:17. > :32:25.it absolutely clear in my earlier answer, Gordon, it is to do with the
:32:26. > :32:28.programmes that are proposed. South Ayrshire, the SNP have got a
:32:29. > :32:33.brilliant programme, so are you prepared to go in? We are opposed to
:32:34. > :32:39.any programmes that have cuts at the centre of it or are going to have an
:32:40. > :32:41.adverse effect on families, and our executive committee will examine the
:32:42. > :32:46.detail of any programme before approving any deals. So, it sounds
:32:47. > :32:50.like Ayrshire, you're happy to go into coalition with a party which
:32:51. > :32:56.you say acts as, what is the phrase, and yet escalator for Tory cuts, is
:32:57. > :33:04.that your phrase you have used for the SNP? I reiterate, Gordon, any
:33:05. > :33:13.programme, a programme of proposing cuts... Any programme... Tavish
:33:14. > :33:16.Scott, where are the Liberal Democrats in all of this, are there
:33:17. > :33:23.any places where you think you can actually have a hand in this?
:33:24. > :33:27.Firstly, can I apologise for introducing the single transferable
:33:28. > :33:31.vote all those years ago, and ending the thing which you must want more,
:33:32. > :33:34.Gordon, then anything else, first-past-the-post, so that we can
:33:35. > :33:37.have clarity in these local elections! It is a good thing that
:33:38. > :33:40.these political parties have to confront the verdict of the
:33:41. > :33:45.electorate and work out what the electorate said, and then they have
:33:46. > :33:48.to come to an agreement, or as we have just seen, not, about... The
:33:49. > :33:53.problem was they didn't like your party very much, so are you in a
:33:54. > :34:01.position to negotiate any of these deals? You're right, I am not
:34:02. > :34:04.because I am an NSP. I think it a really important principle. My
:34:05. > :34:08.national executive would not get involved in it taking to my local
:34:09. > :34:14.councillors what they should do at local level. 1.I agree with James on
:34:15. > :34:17.is, in all of your analysis, there was nothing about policy, it was all
:34:18. > :34:20.about deals between parties. James is right, this should be about
:34:21. > :34:31.policies at the local level. That is what the Liberal Democrats will be
:34:32. > :34:34.talking about. If you were in a position to do deals with other
:34:35. > :34:40.parties, you wouldn't rule out doing a deal with anyone, Tories, SNP,
:34:41. > :34:44.anyone, it would be, as James Kelly says, about the contents of the
:34:45. > :34:48.deal? Just as we discussed properly with the SNP government here in
:34:49. > :34:52.Edinburgh about the budget, we will do that at a local level, where
:34:53. > :34:55.people have said, do that. I think that is the responsible way we
:34:56. > :34:58.should proceed in politics and I think it is what other parties
:34:59. > :35:05.should be doing fuzzy Mark Ruskell, you are not in a position, either,
:35:06. > :35:09.to be influential in these discussions, are you? Well, we are
:35:10. > :35:15.in some. We have big council groups in Edinburgh and Glasgow. I think
:35:16. > :35:21.there are still discussions which are under way. But I think the
:35:22. > :35:24.really sad thing... Still discussions taking place, a lot of
:35:25. > :35:30.councils are having their first inaugural meetings this week and we
:35:31. > :35:33.will see what emerges from that. But the real tragedy of Scottish
:35:34. > :35:36.politics, you have the SNP and Labour fighting each other in
:35:37. > :35:40.council chambers across the country, where if they actually looked at the
:35:41. > :35:43.policies and manifestos, they would realise there is a lot to bind them
:35:44. > :35:47.together. I think progressive coalitions could start to emerge in
:35:48. > :35:51.a lot of Scottish local authorities between SNP, Labour, possibly
:35:52. > :35:56.Liberal Democrats, possibly Greens as well. Let's see what emerges in
:35:57. > :36:00.the next week. Is there any prospect belay between vanishingly small and
:36:01. > :36:04.small, of the Greens not doing a deal to be part of the Glasgow
:36:05. > :36:08.administration? Well, I can't comment on that, that is down to our
:36:09. > :36:12.counsellor group in Glasgow. That's where the decision-making has to
:36:13. > :36:18.like fish but certainly, we don't need to look at formal coalitions to
:36:19. > :36:23.get the job done. Greens have been in constructive negotiations with
:36:24. > :36:26.the SNP at Holyrood to deliver 160 million for the local authorities,
:36:27. > :36:30.that is with a group of six MSPs. We can do the same with the local
:36:31. > :36:34.councils, being constructive in fighting for education and local
:36:35. > :36:39.services through our influence. Let's change the subject, the
:36:40. > :36:45.Liberal Democrats, to the great joy of the nation, have produced a
:36:46. > :36:49.manifesto today. You are so cynical, Gordon, you really are, what is
:36:50. > :36:54.wrong, be positive! I meant it literally! Your flagship see as
:36:55. > :36:58.announced today is another referendum on the final terms of
:36:59. > :37:03.Brexit, so we'll give you a chance to answer the question - why is it
:37:04. > :37:05.vital to have another referendum on Brexit but absolutely forbidden to
:37:06. > :37:11.have another referendum on independence? Because as you and
:37:12. > :37:14.other broadcasters know, you interviewed Boris Johnson and many
:37:15. > :37:20.other leading lights on the get out campaign, and they all said, we will
:37:21. > :37:23.stay in the single market, we will stay in the Commons for economic
:37:24. > :37:26.matters, we will stay very much part of everything which is important in
:37:27. > :37:31.Europe, and the minute the thing was passed, it has all gone. Were told
:37:32. > :37:37.we were going to see ?350 million a week ago where does that go now? I
:37:38. > :37:40.get the argument. The argument actually matters here, Gordon. The
:37:41. > :37:44.point is, the people did not know what they were voting for, and now
:37:45. > :37:47.the Tories are saying something completely different. It is right
:37:48. > :37:50.that the people of our country get the chance to vote on whatever comes
:37:51. > :37:54.out of those negotiations in two or three years' time, because they
:37:55. > :37:57.certainly did not know what they were voting for last year. The
:37:58. > :38:01.argument would be slightly more impressive if it was not the case
:38:02. > :38:05.that during the referendum campaign on independence, you and others
:38:06. > :38:09.spent your entire time saying, Alex Salmond is profiting that we'll keep
:38:10. > :38:13.the pound, he can't promise that, everyone in the UK Government is
:38:14. > :38:17.saying, that's not possible, he can't be trusted, there's no clarity
:38:18. > :38:21.in what the SNP are proposing, he says he can join the European Union,
:38:22. > :38:27.look what Barroso is saying, there is no certainty... I don't really
:38:28. > :38:32.see what the difference is? I think you do, don't Gordon, I think that
:38:33. > :38:36.is a dancing on the head of the Pinotti mint. The point was, the
:38:37. > :38:40.argument was that, we will be independent. You cannot compare that
:38:41. > :38:47.in that bold sense with what we now have on Brexit. It is changing every
:38:48. > :38:50.day, we have and yet active negotiation with 27 member states.
:38:51. > :38:55.You cannot possibly compare the two. I am going to ask our cameraman or
:38:56. > :38:59.woman to dance on the head of a pin and get right over to Richard
:39:00. > :39:06.Lochhead so he can say why he agrees with you... Why do you agree with
:39:07. > :39:10.him, Tavish Scott, is he right? I agree on some of the issues, in
:39:11. > :39:17.terms of the false premise on which voted to leave Europe. But of course
:39:18. > :39:22.in Scotland, 62% of Scots... But what about another referendum on
:39:23. > :39:26.Brexit but not on independence? I do not agree with him on that point. If
:39:27. > :39:33.you are a Democrat and a member of the Scottish Parliament, we believe
:39:34. > :39:38.the people of Scotland should have the right to choose a different
:39:39. > :39:42.future. Quick word on that, Liam Kerr? I find it rather patronising
:39:43. > :39:45.to say that the British people didn't know what they were voting
:39:46. > :39:48.for, when the British people voted to leave the EU. What we have to
:39:49. > :39:56.focus on is getting the best deal for the UK and for the British
:39:57. > :40:01.people. Those NHS posters? James Kelly, you agree with Liam Kerr on
:40:02. > :40:08.that, don't you? I hope the... I hope you are not agreeing on that in
:40:09. > :40:13.Aberdeenshire I hope that Richard Lochhead is saying that you can't
:40:14. > :40:17.rerun the EU referendum, you know, and we would then accept the result
:40:18. > :40:20.of the independence referendum from 2014 should be accepted, and we
:40:21. > :40:27.don't need another one for a generation. Mark Ruskell, do you
:40:28. > :40:31.want another European referendum? Well, I want a referendum which can
:40:32. > :40:36.finally reconcile the 2014 and the 2016 votes. We are in a very
:40:37. > :40:39.different place to last year. We have to bring these two questions
:40:40. > :40:43.together, when we have understood the nature of the hard Brexit which
:40:44. > :40:47.Theresa May is going to negotiate, and then we can finally put that
:40:48. > :40:50.question to the people. Let's pull back on the shot. This is what the
:40:51. > :40:57.viewers have been waiting for. Fantastic! Thank you all very much
:40:58. > :41:00.indigenous we can get some final thoughts from Dr Gerry Hassan now.
:41:01. > :41:05.This Aberdeen business is a bit strange? I think what he was saying
:41:06. > :41:08.was that basically, the local Labour groups do not have discretion to
:41:09. > :41:13.make deals, they have to be approved by the central organs of Labour,
:41:14. > :41:16.which is quite a bit of micromanagement. It is also a bit
:41:17. > :41:21.ambiguous, isn't it? If the argument is that the problem is not the
:41:22. > :41:25.Tories, tell me if I am getting it wrong, he seemed to be saying that
:41:26. > :41:29.it is not a blanket ban on Tories, it is that this particular deal
:41:30. > :41:35.would mean more cuts in Aberdeen. Yes. So, does that mean in South
:41:36. > :41:39.Ayrshire, where they have done the deal with the SNP, there would be no
:41:40. > :41:44.cuts in South Ayrshire? That was the logic of what he was saying. When
:41:45. > :41:46.you take the bigger picture, in terms of local government
:41:47. > :41:53.contraction and contraction in public spending, how you manage to
:41:54. > :42:00.make less cuts or in a wider environment is difficult to see. It
:42:01. > :42:04.is impossible. You've got a little bit of flexibility with the council
:42:05. > :42:11.charge... That's right. But the local authorities cannot themselves
:42:12. > :42:15.stop the cuts, can they? And so you get the mantra of austerity. But
:42:16. > :42:24.voters do not really understand what it means. Toxic Tories, when 25% of
:42:25. > :42:27.Scots voted two weeks ago Tory, about 7% less than the SNP. That
:42:28. > :42:35.kind of rhetoric is not really cut through. I think it is what Tavish
:42:36. > :42:38.Scott was suggesting, when you have the electoral system which gives you
:42:39. > :42:43.the result of all these parties being political minorities, they
:42:44. > :42:48.then have to active in a bit more of a grown-up way than they sometimes
:42:49. > :42:50.otherwise would. When there is a general election? You have got
:42:51. > :42:55.campaigning on top of that, which means... Do you not think it might
:42:56. > :42:58.be a good idea to have a new rule, just for now, let's just forget
:42:59. > :43:01.about coalitions and local authorities until after the general
:43:02. > :43:06.election, and then maybe everyone can sit down and talk sensibly? Yes,
:43:07. > :43:13.because they are in campaigning mode. That Aberdeen issue will be
:43:14. > :43:17.used for national political capital, that's just the nature of politics.
:43:18. > :43:20.After the 8th of June, there might be a bit more realism coming into
:43:21. > :43:25.town halls. Do you think the general election campaign is going to get as
:43:26. > :43:30.exciting as Aberdeen council or is that too high a standard? I think we
:43:31. > :43:32.can hope for that hydrogen we have a problem in the general election
:43:33. > :43:40.campaign, everyone has basically already assumed the result, which is
:43:41. > :43:42.whether Theresa May's landslide is large or even larger. That takes
:43:43. > :43:45.away some of the excitement. My colleague Brian Taylor
:43:46. > :43:49.is on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with First Minister's Questions
:43:50. > :43:52.and I'll be back this weekend with Sunday Politics Scotland
:43:53. > :43:54.on BBC One from 11:35am. With the general election
:43:55. > :44:02.approaching, with the leaders from six
:44:03. > :44:06.Scottish political parties going head-to-head before you, the voters,
:44:07. > :44:11.in the Scottish Leaders' Debate.