:00:19. > :00:20.Good afternoon and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:21. > :00:24.Nicola Sturgeon reshuffles her Cabinet - John Swinney goes
:00:25. > :00:29.to education and Derek Mackay is the new Finance Secretary.
:00:30. > :00:32.The State Opening of Parliament has taken place at Westminster.
:00:33. > :00:34.The Queen's speech included 21 Bills, but only a brief
:00:35. > :00:43.And here at Westminster, with the EU referendum looming,
:00:44. > :00:46.how many of the Bills proposed in the Queen's Speech will ever
:00:47. > :00:52.Well, Nicola Sturgeon has reshuffled her Cabinet team.
:00:53. > :00:55.In advance of the changes, Richard Lochhead and Alex Neil,
:00:56. > :00:58.two senior Cabinet Secretaries, stepped down from office.
:00:59. > :01:01.Earlier, the First Minister was sworn in at the Court of Session.
:01:02. > :01:06.This from our political editor Brian Taylor.
:01:07. > :01:15.It's about this, the great seal of Scotland, symbol of power. I declare
:01:16. > :01:18.and affirm that you will well and truly serve Her Majesty Queen
:01:19. > :01:22.Elizabeth... It is about this, the Lord President accompanied by 14
:01:23. > :01:29.other judges administering the oaths to Nicola Sturgeon as First
:01:30. > :01:36.Minister. She assent to high office with a nod. He noted she now faced
:01:37. > :01:40.arduous challenges. First challenge, a Cabinet reshuffle. In advance
:01:41. > :01:44.Richard Lochhead stepped down as Rural Affairs Secretary, and Alex
:01:45. > :01:49.Neil left his post at social justice. Ms Nicola Sturgeon praised
:01:50. > :01:53.both. Those remaining in office were called to Bute House. First to
:01:54. > :02:00.arrive her deputy, John Swinney, who moves to education. Billed as Ms
:02:01. > :02:03.Sturgeon's top priority. Next Derek Mackay, promoted to Cabinet to take
:02:04. > :02:08.charge of finance, including new tax powers. Fer ussue joins the Cabinet
:02:09. > :02:17.for the first time, in charge of rural affairs. Keith Brown takes
:02:18. > :02:22.economy, the other half of John Swinney's former finance brief
:02:23. > :02:31.divided. Angela Constance takes charge of new welfare powers.
:02:32. > :02:36.Roseanna Cunningham, environment, Fiona Hislop at culture. Two new
:02:37. > :02:38.faces and six Ministers in new roles.
:02:39. > :02:40.Our correspondent, Glenn Campbell, is at Bute House watching
:02:41. > :02:50.Anything that surprised you there? Well, two men out, two men in,
:02:51. > :02:54.allowing Nicola Sturgeon to keep gender balance in her Cabinet.
:02:55. > :02:58.That's not a surprise. Neither is the promotion of Derek Mackay, who
:02:59. > :03:03.takes over as finance, including taking charge of the Budget and of
:03:04. > :03:08.taxation. Perhaps more of a surprise the promotion of Fergus Ewing, who
:03:09. > :03:18.was business, energy and Tourism Minister but now has a full Cabinet
:03:19. > :03:23.role as Minister for rural affairs and connectivity, which includes
:03:24. > :03:26.transport, with a big decision on which company on which company -
:03:27. > :03:32.CalMac or Serco - will run ferry services to the West Coast islands
:03:33. > :03:40.and on the Clyde. A big role too for Keith Brown, who is now in charge of
:03:41. > :03:43.economy. And that includes a decision on energy licensing. In
:03:44. > :03:48.effect he will be the one to decide whether or not Scotland allows
:03:49. > :03:53.fracking, once further testing and research has been carried out. Those
:03:54. > :03:58.are some of the big changes at the top level. John Swinney perhaps the
:03:59. > :04:03.headline, remaining as Deputy First Minister but taking on
:04:04. > :04:06.responsibility for education, which, as Brian pointed out, the First
:04:07. > :04:11.Minister has build as her top priority for the next five years.
:04:12. > :04:16.Particularly reducing the attainment gap, to reduce that for young people
:04:17. > :04:20.from poorer backgrounds against those from wealthier backgrounds.
:04:21. > :04:24.John Swinney will take on that responsibility with the former
:04:25. > :04:27.Education Secretary, Angela Constance remaining in Cabinet, and
:04:28. > :04:34.taking charge of the new welfare powers that are coming to Holyrood.
:04:35. > :04:37.Just on education, you mentioned the appointment of John Swinney and that
:04:38. > :04:42.that might be the headline news from this. Are we to take this as a big
:04:43. > :04:47.signal, Nicola Sturgeon, she did pretty much stake her First
:04:48. > :04:50.Ministership on closing the attainment gap between people from
:04:51. > :04:55.less well off backgrounds and people from better off backgrounds. Is this
:04:56. > :05:02.a signal that they really are serious about this? I think it is.
:05:03. > :05:06.She says that she wants to be judged on the Government's achievements in
:05:07. > :05:10.this area. Either in those circumstances you do the job
:05:11. > :05:16.yourself, which wouldn't be traditional for a First Minister to
:05:17. > :05:23.take on a specific role within Government rather than to oversee
:05:24. > :05:28.the whole operation. I think she's the next best thing, to appoint the
:05:29. > :05:32.person perceived to be the safest pair of hands in the Scottish
:05:33. > :05:36.Government, John Swinney. He has had a massive role as Finance Secretary
:05:37. > :05:42.for the past nine years. He will now focus his attention on education and
:05:43. > :05:46.will be tasked with reducing the attainment gap, the measure which
:05:47. > :05:50.the First Minister says she wants to be judged on. Thank you for that.
:05:51. > :05:52.The Daily Record's political editor, David Clegg, is my guest today.
:05:53. > :05:59.Did any of this surprise you? The talk had been that John Swinney
:06:00. > :06:04.would be moved to the education brief. I wasn't completely convinced
:06:05. > :06:08.that it would happen, because of the nature of the new powers coming to
:06:09. > :06:13.the Scottish Parliament around tax in particular, I thought having been
:06:14. > :06:15.Finance Secretary for nine years and steered the fiscal framework
:06:16. > :06:19.negotiations around this, he might stay there. But I think Nicola
:06:20. > :06:23.Sturgeon has made a declaration of intent that she is going to follow
:06:24. > :06:28.through on this pledge that education is her number one
:06:29. > :06:43.priority. So you wouldn't take this as a demotion for John Swinney, but
:06:44. > :06:46.a -- Nicola has said she thinks narrowing that attainment gap and
:06:47. > :06:50.dealing with what appears to be an education system which has been
:06:51. > :06:53.struggling over recent years, tackling that will be the priority
:06:54. > :06:58.of this parliamentary term. Having someone who is widely respected
:06:59. > :07:04.across the political barriers in charge of it makes that clear.
:07:05. > :07:07.They've been bringing out, they haven't got specific proposals other
:07:08. > :07:11.than testing, but they've been showing signs of not just thinking
:07:12. > :07:15.in terms of let's throw more money at it. They've been talking about
:07:16. > :07:20.things like, let's look at the London Challenge, and the way that
:07:21. > :07:26.turned around schools in London. They've hinted they might look at
:07:27. > :07:31.different ways of governing skills. Necessity can be the mother of
:07:32. > :07:35.invention. The strain on schools, teacher numbers are down, they don't
:07:36. > :07:39.have the same classroom assistants and resources as they had ten years
:07:40. > :07:42.ago. They do look like they want to make a material change to the way
:07:43. > :07:48.particularly primary schools here, if we are going to deal with the
:07:49. > :07:55.attainment gap, operate. They've shown a willingness not to be idea
:07:56. > :07:58.logically constrained. This is going to require difficult conversations
:07:59. > :08:13.with teachers, with trade unions, with parents. If you are going to do
:08:14. > :08:17.a massive... When he was in a minority Government he had to get
:08:18. > :08:20.tough budgets through. He is no pushover this those kind of
:08:21. > :08:26.discussions. So I certainly think that if they are serious about this,
:08:27. > :08:33.he's is the man for the job. Now, you've within writing all week about
:08:34. > :08:38.affairs, senior SNP people, Stewart Hosie and Angus MacNeil allegedly
:08:39. > :08:43.having an affair with the same woman, but not at the same time. The
:08:44. > :08:48.SNP has denied anything is going on wrong. But in the broader picture,
:08:49. > :08:53.is this just a bit of summer gossip or do you think it will have a long
:08:54. > :08:58.term effect on the SNP? The major problem it causes is that Stewart
:08:59. > :09:02.Hosie, the SNP's Deputy Leader, effectively Nicola Sturgeon's number
:09:03. > :09:08.two in the party, has separated from his wife over these revelations. And
:09:09. > :09:12.his wife is the Health Secretary and one of Nicola Sturgeon's closest
:09:13. > :09:15.friends. There is no doubt this is putting pressure on friendships at
:09:16. > :09:21.the very heart of the Scottish Government. Government. Those are
:09:22. > :09:24.professional as well as personal relationships, so there's a
:09:25. > :09:29.legitimate concern that attention could be distracted by system of the
:09:30. > :09:34.things that's gone on. Yeah, but on the other hand David Cameron might
:09:35. > :09:37.say, oh my God I wish I had a scandal to deal with, I've got
:09:38. > :09:41.Michael Gove and Boris Johnson going around the country on the opposite
:09:42. > :09:50.side of the European debate. It might cause a bit of awkwardness but
:09:51. > :09:54.nothing like what I'm facing Et They don't have an EU-style division, but
:09:55. > :09:58.this is quite a significant scandal of these types when people can say
:09:59. > :10:04.it is just gossip or largely personal matters. But yesterday it
:10:05. > :10:10.overshadowed Nicola Sturgeon's being re-elected as First Minister. It
:10:11. > :10:16.also was playing a little bit to the reshuffle today. Shona Robson, one
:10:17. > :10:20.of the cast of this scandal, is the Health Secretary. She has kept her
:10:21. > :10:24.job as Health Secretary. Don't go away. We'll be with you shortly.
:10:25. > :10:26.Meanwhile, in Westminster the State Opening of Parliament
:10:27. > :10:29.The Queen set out the Government's programme of legislation
:10:30. > :10:32.It included 21 bills, but only one mention of Scotland.
:10:33. > :10:41.My Government will continue to work in co-operation with the devolved
:10:42. > :10:47.administrations. To implement the extensive new powers in the Scotland
:10:48. > :10:53.Act and establish a strong and lasting devolution settlement in
:10:54. > :10:59.Wales. My Government will work in Northern Ireland to secure further
:11:00. > :11:05.progress in implementing the Stormont House and Fresh Start
:11:06. > :11:11.agreements. Members of the House of Commons, estimates for the public
:11:12. > :11:16.services will be laid before you. My Lords and members of the House of
:11:17. > :11:23.Commons, other measures will be laid before you. I pray that the blessing
:11:24. > :11:26.of almighty God may rest upon your counsels. There were fears the
:11:27. > :11:32.earlier that David Porter would have been in the rain and might have had
:11:33. > :11:37.to be rushed indoors, but he is basking in the sunshine. This
:11:38. > :11:40.Queen's Speech, before we go on to the Scottish stuff, people are
:11:41. > :11:44.saying they've ditched a lot of stuff because of the euro
:11:45. > :11:48.referendum. What's that all about? I will have you no I'm not made of
:11:49. > :11:54.salt, so I'm going to be very brave. If it does Raneleigh get wet. But
:11:55. > :12:00.this is a Queen's Speech which is in some ways like no other than I have
:12:01. > :12:04.seen before. We've had the normal pomp, the ceremony, where pomp,
:12:05. > :12:08.ceremony and politics all mix. But this is being overshadowed by the EU
:12:09. > :12:12.referendum. It is totally overshadowing everything in UK
:12:13. > :12:14.politics at the moment. We had an extraordinary situation even before
:12:15. > :12:19.the Queen's Speech was delivered this morning. We had the former Work
:12:20. > :12:24.and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, who wants to leave the EU,
:12:25. > :12:28.coming out and trashing his own Government's Queen's Speech by
:12:29. > :12:31.saying that things like the sovereignty bill and other bits of
:12:32. > :12:35.legislation were not going to be in the Queen's Speech, because David
:12:36. > :12:41.Cameron did not want to stir up any an most of ir up any an most of the
:12:42. > :12:44.on his -- any animosity on his own benches. It is true that whatever
:12:45. > :12:47.else is happening in politics at the moment, as regards the EU
:12:48. > :12:53.referendum, the Conservative Party here at Westminster is split down
:12:54. > :12:58.the middle on this one. As days go by the rhetoric is ratcheting up all
:12:59. > :13:03.the time. Yesterday we had Lord Heseltine, a former Deputy Prime
:13:04. > :13:06.Minister, coming out with some strident criticism of Boris Johnson,
:13:07. > :13:11.questioning his judgment and questioning whether he could ever be
:13:12. > :13:16.Prime Minister. They fighting already about this one. You do get
:13:17. > :13:20.the impression that this whole Queen's Speech has been put
:13:21. > :13:23.together. It is pretty anodyne and they are trying to take anything
:13:24. > :13:27.controversial out, because they know at the moment the Conservatives
:13:28. > :13:33.cannot really agree on what day of the week it is. OK, Scotland didn't
:13:34. > :13:37.figure highly, but was there anything at all? Well, we heard the
:13:38. > :13:41.reference to Scotland there. That was in light of the constitutional
:13:42. > :13:44.developments. The Queen basically reading the script provided by David
:13:45. > :13:48.Cameron, in which she says that the UK Government wants to work with the
:13:49. > :13:52.Scottish Government. Critics of the UK Government have been quick to
:13:53. > :13:57.jump on this, saying only one reference to Scotland. This is a
:13:58. > :14:01.missed opportunity, there's a lot more in practical terms that could
:14:02. > :14:06.have been done to help Scotland. The UK Government says of the 21 bills,
:14:07. > :14:11.a dozen or so in full or in part will in some way affect Scotland.
:14:12. > :14:14.They point to things like the bill which will come in to guarantee
:14:15. > :14:18.superfast broadband. They say in practical terms that is something
:14:19. > :14:22.which will affect people in Scotland, in England and Wales, and
:14:23. > :14:27.it is very important on a practical level. They also say as well, you
:14:28. > :14:30.ought to expect this. In their words, the big things are happening
:14:31. > :14:34.in Scotland. They say with the Scottish Parliament it's always had
:14:35. > :14:37.responsibility over health, over education, over transport, those
:14:38. > :14:40.type of things. But with the extra powers granted in the Scotland Act,
:14:41. > :14:45.more financial powers are going to Holyrood and more will be in the
:14:46. > :14:50.pipeline. They say that as time goes on, it would only be right and fair
:14:51. > :14:53.to expect the Scottish Parliament to be enacting more legislation. Not
:14:54. > :14:58.just on those health and education matters, but on finance as well,
:14:59. > :15:01.which will affect Scots. David, thank you for now. I believe will
:15:02. > :15:06.you be back with us later with most of the contents of the House of
:15:07. > :15:12.Lords with you. David Clegg, it is quite an extraordinary situation if
:15:13. > :15:18.it is true, as David is suggesting, that first, or the second year of a
:15:19. > :15:21.new Government effectively they have to pretty much bin their legislative
:15:22. > :15:23.programme in case anyone inside their own party might disagree with
:15:24. > :15:29.it because of the European referendum. It certainly feels like
:15:30. > :15:33.a Government on pause at the minute. The double part of that I guess is
:15:34. > :15:38.that as David pointed out there a lot of the measures don't apply to
:15:39. > :15:43.Scotland. The Scottish Parliament becomes more powerful for what it is
:15:44. > :15:49.in charge of. Even if you are looking at it on a UK-wide level
:15:50. > :15:52.there is nothing dramatic there. Almost everything included in it we
:15:53. > :16:03.already knew about. The Liberal Democrats claimed 28 or
:16:04. > :16:08.38 measures in the speech we knew about already. When your cabinet is
:16:09. > :16:12.at war over a constitutional issue it is difficult to get much
:16:13. > :16:16.governing done. I wonder if there was a case to leave it until after
:16:17. > :16:20.the referendum in a few weeks and hopefully they can get back to
:16:21. > :16:26.business as normal after that. That was my next question, can they get
:16:27. > :16:31.back to business as normal? It seems to be getting nastier and nastier on
:16:32. > :16:37.both sides of the Remain and Leave people. It is within the
:16:38. > :16:43.Conservatives' party and getting more and more bitter, can they patch
:16:44. > :16:48.it up afterwards and say, that was fun, let's get on with it? It will
:16:49. > :16:51.be very difficult. We saw in Scotland after the referendum that
:16:52. > :16:58.it had left a lot of bitter feeling for a long time and they weren't in
:16:59. > :17:03.the same party. There is a lot of talk about a repeat of project fear
:17:04. > :17:10.and resentment on both sides but if you think about the Scottish dynamic
:17:11. > :17:17.during that, it was Alistair Darling's political opponents for
:17:18. > :17:23.example, or David Cameron's, saying that they were making up lies, now
:17:24. > :17:27.it is people within the same cabinet saying, he is making up nonsense.
:17:28. > :17:33.How do you go from that to sitting in government like nothing has
:17:34. > :17:36.happened? To use the cliche, time will tell.
:17:37. > :17:44.Alyn Smith, Adam Tomkins,... Now, let's go to the
:17:45. > :17:46.Scottish Parliament. Waiting in the lobby
:17:47. > :17:48.is Alyn Smith from the SNP, Adam Tomkins from the Conservatives,
:17:49. > :17:50.Labour's Iain Gray, the Greens' Alison Johnstone,
:17:51. > :17:58.and finally Alex Cole-Hamilton Alan Tomkins, what do you make of
:17:59. > :18:01.the reshuffle? John Swinney going to education is the eye-catching one,
:18:02. > :18:04.it reinforces what the First Minister said, that she wants
:18:05. > :18:11.education reform to be a centrepiece of this government. John Swinney is
:18:12. > :18:14.somebody whom I think has proved is capable of working with parties
:18:15. > :18:19.right across Scottish politics and I worked with him on the Smith
:18:20. > :18:22.Commission and didn't always agree with him. Iain was also on the Smith
:18:23. > :18:29.Commission. He was always prepared to listen to argument from across
:18:30. > :18:33.the Scottish political spectrum and we need that in education reform, we
:18:34. > :18:37.need to take some of the politics out of it and as the First Minister
:18:38. > :18:41.said yesterday there are good ideas on education from across the chamber
:18:42. > :18:48.and John Swinney is the eye-catching appointment. Iain Gray, presumably
:18:49. > :18:55.one of the things... I think the Scottish Government has already said
:18:56. > :19:02.that they want to reduce the attainment gap, they are actually
:19:03. > :19:06.going to give us measures where we can judge whether they have done
:19:07. > :19:09.that. Is that something you would be looking for, so we know it is
:19:10. > :19:17.successful not just by the rhetoric but by the facts? I agree with Adam
:19:18. > :19:21.that John Swinney is Nicola Sturgeon's biggest hitter, so his
:19:22. > :19:26.move into education is a sign that they are serious about trying to
:19:27. > :19:32.sort out education, but he inherits a pretty big mess. Only this week we
:19:33. > :19:37.have seen pretty trenchant criticisms of the new exams, we know
:19:38. > :19:41.that Scottish teachers are balloting on industrial action, so he has a
:19:42. > :19:46.lot of problems to sort out. You ask how we measure success, the SNP
:19:47. > :19:50.problem has been that by all of the measures we have education has not
:19:51. > :19:56.been successful over the nine years of their stewardship am so John
:19:57. > :19:59.Swinney, yes, a sign that Nicola Sturgeon is serious about education,
:20:00. > :20:04.but he has problems to get to grips with very quickly. Alyn Smith, if we
:20:05. > :20:14.can get the camera to swing around to you. There have been suggestions
:20:15. > :20:17.that this is just hot air. Can we expect to see the Scottish
:20:18. > :20:23.Government telling us how they expect to be judged on the
:20:24. > :20:26.educational attainment gap, give us benchmarks by which we will know
:20:27. > :20:33.whether the effort is having any effect? We stood on the platform of
:20:34. > :20:39.putting education front and centre of the economy, we now have a system
:20:40. > :20:46.to put that into practice. I am delighted to say that Alan Tomkins
:20:47. > :20:51.-- to hear Alan Tomkins say that they will take the heat out of
:20:52. > :20:57.education. Education is a challenge in Scotland, a lot of work to be
:20:58. > :21:02.done, but we have made a lot of progress and that will be judged by
:21:03. > :21:05.a lot of criteria but we are in a minority situation, we will be
:21:06. > :21:15.working with the other parties and John Swinney is absolutely good to
:21:16. > :21:19.do that. Are you looking for the Scottish Government not just to say
:21:20. > :21:24.education is a priority but to tell us exactly what they plan to do and
:21:25. > :21:32.how the public are going to be able to judge it? The public are very
:21:33. > :21:34.aware that teachers feel their workloads are unsustainable and
:21:35. > :21:40.unmanageable, they are under more stress than ever, and the potential
:21:41. > :21:46.for standardised testing to be introduced is added to that and we
:21:47. > :21:52.have a lot of problems. We have targets in education, another target
:21:53. > :22:01.that the government has consistently missed is the climate change target.
:22:02. > :22:07.We welcome the policies on climate change and land reform. There are
:22:08. > :22:15.some shifts side woods but we are never oppositional for the sake of
:22:16. > :22:19.it. -- shifts sideways. Education is a medium where there are many good
:22:20. > :22:26.ideas across the chamber that we want to see put into practice. I
:22:27. > :22:30.come back this about how we are supposed to judge it because there
:22:31. > :22:33.is a massive track record of not just the SNP government but other
:22:34. > :22:37.governments saying, we are going to do this and that and it will be
:22:38. > :22:46.wonderful honour but we are never given hard evidence that any of it
:22:47. > :22:51.has worked. The SNP are slightly obsessed with targets and metrics.
:22:52. > :22:54.The OECD issued a report last year saying that mathematical attainment
:22:55. > :22:58.in Scottish schools had gone from some of the best in the world to
:22:59. > :23:02.just about average, indicative of the transformational --
:23:03. > :23:09.transformational investment we need to put into education to close that
:23:10. > :23:16.gap. The lid tends -- the Lib Dems wanted a penny on income tax.
:23:17. > :23:23.Including national testing is the last thing we need and unfortunately
:23:24. > :23:26.-- unfortunately it will be left to parties like the Liberal Democrats
:23:27. > :23:31.to do the running in opposition to these unwanted national tests. Alyn
:23:32. > :23:43.Smith, the camera is just swinging around to you.
:23:44. > :23:52.Alex has mentioned mathematics and the OECD measures. There has been a
:23:53. > :23:58.lot of talk about educational attainment by pupils from deprived
:23:59. > :24:02.and better off grounds and getting that gap down, but also a general
:24:03. > :24:07.recognition that Scotland, while it is still quite good, has gone down
:24:08. > :24:12.the International league tables. Has it been your ambition to get them
:24:13. > :24:21.back up the league tables in the way Alex mentioned? One thing Scottish
:24:22. > :24:24.politics has too evolved beyond is statistic swapping. One of the
:24:25. > :24:28.difficulties with education is that it is measured to death and we need
:24:29. > :24:34.agreement across the chamber about how to measure progress. The OECD
:24:35. > :24:40.statistics are taken as fairly authoritative and the problem with
:24:41. > :24:44.saying statistics swapping... We will get back into saying, things
:24:45. > :24:50.are better because we say so. Parents want to know how we can
:24:51. > :24:55.judge? The obvious one would be to get back up the OECD league tables
:24:56. > :25:00.in mathematics. That would be won but there are many others. Nicola
:25:01. > :25:06.Sturgeon has made a real offer to the other parties to work
:25:07. > :25:08.constructively for the best of Scotland education, closing the
:25:09. > :25:12.attainment gap, making sure we get back up the league tables and do
:25:13. > :25:15.better and we have made progress but there was a lot to do. John Swinney
:25:16. > :25:19.will be working with the other parties about what is needed to be
:25:20. > :25:24.done and putting that into practice. I hope the other parties will be
:25:25. > :25:26.working constructively on that and not point-scoring because this is
:25:27. > :25:33.more important than that. Alan Tomkins, on the constructive working
:25:34. > :25:39.wealth, there is a lot of this, national testing for example, that
:25:40. > :25:43.presumably the Conservatives would agree with. There is not much the
:25:44. > :25:49.SNP are saying you would disagree with, you would like to see more
:25:50. > :25:53.self-governing schools? We want to see a cultural shift in Scotland in
:25:54. > :25:59.terms of who runs Scottish schools. In Glasgow which I represent, more
:26:00. > :26:03.as a parent than a politician, the idea that glass go City Council
:26:04. > :26:07.knows best what schools in my local community need in order to serve
:26:08. > :26:15.those communities is risen above. -- Glasgow. Local government and
:26:16. > :26:20.education reform need to go hand in hand. It is interesting that public
:26:21. > :26:25.service reform has been added to the Deputy First Minister's grief, an
:26:26. > :26:31.indication that the SNP are least prepared to consider coupling some
:26:32. > :26:34.kind of reform to government within Scotland, decentralisation,
:26:35. > :26:39.devolution within Scotland, within the context of education. We want to
:26:40. > :26:44.see schools having more autonomy, we want to see teachers having more
:26:45. > :26:47.power over budgets, hiring and firing, rather than the education
:26:48. > :26:54.authorities. It doesn't matter whether you call them academies of
:26:55. > :26:58.free schools... Iain Gray, Alan Tomkins I think is broadly
:26:59. > :27:03.sympathetic to some of what the SNP is trying to achieve. Is Labour? Are
:27:04. > :27:09.you in favour of the new national tests? We don't know what they are,
:27:10. > :27:14.Nicola Sturgeon told us they were one thing... You remain open to
:27:15. > :27:18.being convinced? We have a working group working on a national tests at
:27:19. > :27:24.the moment, we remain to be convinced. If we want to improve
:27:25. > :27:28.attainment in our schools, we have lost 4500 teachers from our schools,
:27:29. > :27:33.that is the problem. The problem is not who governs the schools. If John
:27:34. > :27:39.Swinney is going to try to improve our education system or schools by
:27:40. > :27:43.turning them into the Tories and introducing free schools and
:27:44. > :27:46.changing governance of schools, five years from now I promise we will be
:27:47. > :27:52.standing here talking about the same problems. We have to stop cuts in
:27:53. > :28:00.our schools, begin to reinvest in them and support our teachers. They
:28:01. > :28:03.are the ones... You are saying something that flatly contradicts
:28:04. > :28:10.what they have done to schools in England which seems to be remarkably
:28:11. > :28:14.successful. Absolutely. If you are talking about academies, I think the
:28:15. > :28:18.Academy programme has not been successful. There is a fair bit of
:28:19. > :28:23.evidence saying that those schools that have stayed in local authority
:28:24. > :28:27.control... I was making a more general point. Alison, perhaps you
:28:28. > :28:31.could take this up, that the general data that we have seems to show that
:28:32. > :28:38.English schools have caught up and in some ways overtaken Scottish
:28:39. > :28:42.schools. That is because actually the investment in schools has
:28:43. > :28:46.increased over the past five years, significantly more even under the
:28:47. > :28:52.Tories than we have seen in Scotland under the SNP. Alison Johnstone, you
:28:53. > :28:57.don't agree with anything that the SNP are saying, do you, you don't
:28:58. > :29:01.agree with national testing? We don't. Let's look at one of the
:29:02. > :29:06.often quoted countries, Finland, one of the best systems in the world.
:29:07. > :29:09.They are not tested in the same way they will be here and there is a
:29:10. > :29:17.great concern that when you start testing those figures will get into
:29:18. > :29:21.the hands of those... Alex, you don't agree with testing either,
:29:22. > :29:28.because you ran a system of testing under the Coalition Government in
:29:29. > :29:31.England? Not one bit. Introducing testing drives a coach and horses
:29:32. > :29:36.through the good work that has been done through the curriculum, built
:29:37. > :29:40.around experiential teaching. We have teachers teaching to the test.
:29:41. > :29:49.In a discussion about education we can't ignore the crisis in further
:29:50. > :29:52.education. The SNP presided over 152 thousand college places lost. We
:29:53. > :29:59.want to work with other parties to do that -- to overturn that
:30:00. > :30:04.otherwise we will lose those further education places. A shot of you all
:30:05. > :30:15.looking marvellous. Thank you very much indeed.
:30:16. > :30:20.The Daily Record's political editor, David Clegg, is with me today.
:30:21. > :30:27.We had report after report from Audit Scotland saying whether it was
:30:28. > :30:32.in education or health or other areas it is difficult to measure
:30:33. > :30:35.whether any progress has been made, because proper statistics aren't
:30:36. > :30:42.made available. And it is difficult to see how you can do that without
:30:43. > :30:47.more testing. Is SNP have said there'll be some form of testing but
:30:48. > :30:54.pupils will not be judged. That's still ambiguous. They seemed to be
:30:55. > :30:57.saying initially they would publish SATs test results but there were
:30:58. > :31:02.some weasel words, that they wouldn't be the raw results. They
:31:03. > :31:05.would be supplemented by an assessment by teachers, which then
:31:06. > :31:12.turns them into being suggestive doesn't it? Absolutely. And you've
:31:13. > :31:17.got to presume if some form of schools being judged against each
:31:18. > :31:22.other will creep into that, at which point the teacher's subjective
:31:23. > :31:28.judgment has outside pressures on it rather than an objective look at how
:31:29. > :31:32.the pupil is faring. All of these issues are difficult. On top of that
:31:33. > :31:39.the central problem that Iain Gray is focusing on, at a time when
:31:40. > :31:45.budgets are being cut, they've already lost 4,500 teachers, how you
:31:46. > :31:49.improve standards with less teachers and less money and no consensus on
:31:50. > :31:59.how you judge that you are achieving that. That's an issue. And it is
:32:00. > :32:03.whether a hare has been let loose. I remember Labour Health Secretaries
:32:04. > :32:07.saying to me how frustrated to me that the NHS in Scotland produces
:32:08. > :32:12.masses of statistics, but they found it impossible to get ones that could
:32:13. > :32:16.tell new a simple way, is this unit in this hospital doing well compared
:32:17. > :32:21.to another unit in another hospital that's doing much the same thing and
:32:22. > :32:26.is doing badly? People may sell say if you are going to do this big
:32:27. > :32:31.openness and transparency campaign in education, can we have one for
:32:32. > :32:36.the health service. Absolutely, and if it is the attainment gap and
:32:37. > :32:40.narrowing that, you have to compare schools against schools based on the
:32:41. > :32:46.level of deprivation in postcode areas. How you can do that without
:32:47. > :32:50.testing is difficult to see. David Porter is still, I hope, in the
:32:51. > :32:54.sunshine. He is joining us from Westminster. You are in the
:32:55. > :33:00.sunshine? Not quite sunshine but it's not raining, so let's look on
:33:01. > :33:06.the bright side of things. Let me introduce the panel. Lord Purvis for
:33:07. > :33:10.the Liberal Democrats, Lord Foulkes for Labour, Joanna Cherry for the
:33:11. > :33:15.SNP, and Lord Dunlop for the UK Government. Andrew Dunlop, it is a
:33:16. > :33:20.very simple question. One mention of Scotland in the Queen's Speech by
:33:21. > :33:31.the monarch. What is in this Queen's Speech for Scotland? This is a
:33:32. > :33:36.Queen's Speech based on economic security, and the lifetime chances.
:33:37. > :33:41.Things like the digital economy bill has will make the UK a world leader
:33:42. > :33:45.in digital. And also helping those on low income tax for example save
:33:46. > :33:50.for a rainy day. Very practical measures. But the point I would make
:33:51. > :33:54.is in the last session we passed just before the Holyrood election
:33:55. > :33:58.the Scotland Act. The big task now is for the UK Government to work
:33:59. > :34:03.with the Scottish Government to implement the powers that are going
:34:04. > :34:07.to make the Scottish Parliament the most powerful or one of the most
:34:08. > :34:11.powerful devolved Parliaments anywhere in the world. Joanna
:34:12. > :34:16.Cherry, the theme there is don't be surprised if there is not a lot in a
:34:17. > :34:19.Westminster Queen's Speech now that Holyrood has more powers. It is
:34:20. > :34:23.rather a disappointing and underwhelming Queen's Speech. It is
:34:24. > :34:26.indicative of the fact that the Government are obsessed with
:34:27. > :34:31.infighting about the EU referendum. A ragbag of measure was a lot of
:34:32. > :34:34.stuff recycled from the Qbag of measure was a lot of stuff recycled
:34:35. > :34:36.from the Queen's Speech last year - the Bill of Rights, the victory
:34:37. > :34:39.powers bill, which is already making its way through the Commons. I
:34:40. > :34:43.didn't see anything of great reference to Scotland. I welcome the
:34:44. > :34:48.moves on broadband and the digital economy bill, but it will not do for
:34:49. > :34:53.the Conservative Government to say more powers are been devolved to
:34:54. > :34:59.Holyrood and the UK Government doesn't need to worry about the
:35:00. > :35:04.Scottish Parliament much. We welcome measures to grow the economy and
:35:05. > :35:09.make Britain fairer and a more equal society. What I'm talking about is
:35:10. > :35:14.this. The Government have failed on key economic indicators and even the
:35:15. > :35:20.targets they've set for themselves in relation to reducing the debt and
:35:21. > :35:24.the deficit. It is time they recognised their austerity agenda
:35:25. > :35:27.isn't working, and the IMF has recommended growth in the British
:35:28. > :35:31.economy, will be benefit the whole of Britain, including Scotland.
:35:32. > :35:35.George Foulkes, you have been in Government. You know how departments
:35:36. > :35:41.have to fight for slots in the Queen's Speech. About the process of
:35:42. > :35:46.devolution, are you surprised that was so little blatantly about
:35:47. > :35:50.Scotland in this speech? No, because as has been said, most of the powers
:35:51. > :35:54.have been devolved to Scotland. We might have had included. But I
:35:55. > :35:58.thought it was a very, very strange Queen's Speech. The Government has
:35:59. > :36:03.made the Queen look like Alice in Wonderland. When she said, we'll
:36:04. > :36:07.continue to keep public finances under control. Under control? When
:36:08. > :36:13.the debt has doubled under the Tories. And then continued to
:36:14. > :36:17.eliminate poverty. Poverty is going up, because poor people are having
:36:18. > :36:21.their benefits cut under the Tories. What we are facing now in Britain
:36:22. > :36:27.and the Scotland in particular, in Scotland we are facing double
:36:28. > :36:30.austerity. Direct austerity from a Tory Government, and second hand
:36:31. > :36:35.austerity from an SNP Government. What we ought to be doing is taxing
:36:36. > :36:40.the rich in Scotland now that we have the powers. Nicola Sturgeon and
:36:41. > :36:43.her new Ministers are not willing to have a 50p rate of tax, which would
:36:44. > :36:48.bring in some money to help people in Scotland. So I'm afraid double
:36:49. > :36:54.austerity today in Scotland and in London.
:36:55. > :36:59.Jeremy Purves, are you surprised at the lack of explicit references to
:37:00. > :37:02.Scotland in this? Or is it a natural consequence of devolution? I do
:37:03. > :37:06.accept the argument that there are measures such as digital broadband
:37:07. > :37:09.that affect all of the UK and I hope and expect the Scottish Government
:37:10. > :37:14.and the UK Government to be working together for this, because Scotland
:37:15. > :37:21.needs it. As much as the UK economy needs a boost, boy does the Scottish
:37:22. > :37:26.economy need a boost. Almost every single Scottish Government economic
:37:27. > :37:30.target has been missed by the Scottish Government, so there's a
:37:31. > :37:33.big expectation of them. It is a very anaemic Queen's Speech. I
:37:34. > :37:37.wouldn't be surprised if this was the one of the very last year of the
:37:38. > :37:40.Government. This is only effectively the second year of the
:37:41. > :37:48.administration. It shows that without there being a big push for a
:37:49. > :37:52.morale agenda, perhaps the Liberals had contributed last term, we were
:37:53. > :37:59.seeing a Conservative Party Queen's Speech which should be one for the
:38:00. > :38:02.whole of the country. I've seen... The European referendum has taken
:38:03. > :38:05.many eyes off the ball. We saw that in Scotland lead ing will up to the
:38:06. > :38:09.Scottish referendum how much of the focus of the Government is on
:38:10. > :38:12.something else rather than a proper radical reforming Queen's Speech we
:38:13. > :38:17.should have had today. That is something not just politicians but a
:38:18. > :38:20.lot of people who know Westminster well are saying about this Queen's
:38:21. > :38:26.Speech. That to all intent and purposes it has been overshadowed by
:38:27. > :38:28.the EU referendum. There were Conservatives, former Conservative
:38:29. > :38:32.Cabinet Ministers before the Queen's Speech had been delivered this
:38:33. > :38:35.morning trashing it. Before I answer the question about the EU, I must
:38:36. > :38:40.come back on the point about the economy. The UK has been the fastest
:38:41. > :38:45.growing developed economy anywhere. Scotland has been one of the
:38:46. > :38:50.strongest performers. But there are worrying signs. We have had record
:38:51. > :38:55.employment since 2010 but some of the figures we see today show there
:38:56. > :38:59.are worrying signed. That is why the UK Government and the Scottish
:39:00. > :39:04.Government need to work together, using the powers they have to
:39:05. > :39:07.continue to build on the growth we've seen over the last three
:39:08. > :39:13.years. And that for example is why we are working very well with the
:39:14. > :39:19.Scottish Government on city deals. That's that's a practical measure.
:39:20. > :39:24.We are opening discussions with Edinburgh. The Prime Minister said
:39:25. > :39:29.only last week we are up for supporting a city deal for the Tay
:39:30. > :39:33.side region. We need to put all of this into context. We have been very
:39:34. > :39:37.successful in our management of the economy. But coming to the main
:39:38. > :39:43.point... You've missed your own targets in reducing the deficit. The
:39:44. > :39:47.fastest growing economy, why is that missing the target? There are
:39:48. > :39:52.countries that would give their eyeteeth... We are not here today to
:39:53. > :39:57.talk about the Scottish public but the Queen's Speech. I'm not
:39:58. > :40:02.surprised that the party that came a distant fifth and the party that
:40:03. > :40:07.came a distant third in the Scottish elections seek to turn this into
:40:08. > :40:10.aspect attack on Scotland. What they need to accept, we had a fight about
:40:11. > :40:15.this in Scotland, we had an election. The SNP won it a couple of
:40:16. > :40:19.weeks ago, by a mile. The Scottish people have confidence in us...
:40:20. > :40:23.Arrogance now. No, the Scottish people have confidence in us to
:40:24. > :40:26.deliver a strong programme of Government, which we'll do shortly.
:40:27. > :40:28.What we are here to discuss this afternoon is the Conservatives'
:40:29. > :40:33.programme of Government. The Scottish Government is happy to work
:40:34. > :40:38.with the Conservative Government, but the SNP in Scotland have a
:40:39. > :40:48.mandate not only at Holyrood level but here. As well as being the only
:40:49. > :40:54.woman on this panel, I am the only elected representative of the
:40:55. > :41:00.people... You do go on a bit don't you? Let someone else get a word in.
:41:01. > :41:04.I would like to hear what your party would do about reform of the House
:41:05. > :41:08.of Lords. If you hadn't make sure that a Tory Government was elected,
:41:09. > :41:15.which you did, because Nicola wanted Cameron to go bark. This is such
:41:16. > :41:19.tired old nonsense. We would have a Labour Government legislating for a
:41:20. > :41:24.it? Of the nations, supported by the Liberal Democrats. You were in power
:41:25. > :41:28.for 13 years. Why didn't you legislate for that after 13 years.
:41:29. > :41:34.We are seeing this Tory-SNP coalition is building up. It is
:41:35. > :41:38.working well... I will book you for future sessions. We'll have round
:41:39. > :41:45.two in a couple of weeks. It makes it easier for me when you argue
:41:46. > :41:49.among yourself. Thank you all for joining us this afternoon. I think
:41:50. > :41:55.we'll book you for future weeks. Weeks. That was very good. Gordon,
:41:56. > :42:01.back to you. We are a bit down-market, not a peerage between
:42:02. > :42:06.us. No. Double austerity. He is good at coming up with the phrases. But
:42:07. > :42:10.it's not strictly true is it, in so far as the Scottish Government
:42:11. > :42:15.couthing budgets it is because of the settlement from London. He is
:42:16. > :42:21.right they have more wriggle room with taxes now. Wet could make other
:42:22. > :42:25.decisions on tax. Nicola Sturgeon in her manifesto said income tax would
:42:26. > :42:32.be frozen for the next year. We'll see what happens after that. He is
:42:33. > :42:38.trying to flag up emerging agreement between the Conservatives and the
:42:39. > :42:45.SNP. We kind of saw a little bit of that with the discussion between the
:42:46. > :42:50.MSPs. Adam Tomkins was the most sympathetic to what the SNP are
:42:51. > :42:57.trying to do. The It doesn't suit either side now. Before the election
:42:58. > :43:00.you saw Murdo Fraser enjoying that they weren't together on taxation.
:43:01. > :43:07.But now they are going to stand up for the SNP, it is not a good look
:43:08. > :43:11.if they are constantly agreeing with him, so they may have to Geneva some
:43:12. > :43:14.splits. On taxation levels the SNP and the Conservatives are closer
:43:15. > :43:21.together than any of the other parties. That will also be the case
:43:22. > :43:28.quite possibly on education reforms. The irony of that is the Greens are
:43:29. > :43:32.maybe the most... Briefly, the Greens, who everyone is talked about
:43:33. > :43:40.as the potential allies of it's SNP, on tax and on education, they are
:43:41. > :43:47.about as far from the SNP as you can imagine. Imagine.. It would make the
:43:48. > :43:49.fracking issue interesting. Fergus Ewing has had the fracking issue
:43:50. > :43:52.taken from him. You can keep up with the latest
:43:53. > :43:57.from the BBC Scotland News website. I'll be back this weekend on BBC One
:43:58. > :44:01.with Sunday Politics.