:00:19. > :00:23.Good afternoon and welcome to the programme.
:00:24. > :00:26.Labour MP for Copeland Jamie Reed - one of Jeremy Corbyn's most
:00:27. > :00:32.persistent backbench critics - is standing down from Parliament.
:00:33. > :00:35.of the Scottish Governments plan to protect 'Scotland's
:00:36. > :00:41.A controversial treatment for incontinence may not be
:00:42. > :00:43.worse than any other, according to a report
:00:44. > :00:50.Mesh implants were suspended by the then Health Secretary
:00:51. > :00:52.Alex Neil two years ago, pending further research
:00:53. > :00:54.although it has emerged use of the treatment continues
:00:55. > :01:02.But today's research - part of the review mesh implants
:01:03. > :01:04.for incontinence may not lead to more complications
:01:05. > :01:22.Before I had the surgery I was really active, I walked five miles
:01:23. > :01:30.every day. Lorna Fowle's mesh implants of 2008 have changed her
:01:31. > :01:35.life. I have chronic pain. A study out today looked at hospital be at
:01:36. > :01:39.the up to five years after my surgery. Some women can take ten,
:01:40. > :01:45.even up to 15 years before the problems arise. In my case, it was
:01:46. > :01:49.six and half years before I got surgery to have it removed. The
:01:50. > :01:57.actual removal surgery is really complicated. The substance attaches
:01:58. > :02:00.itself to organs and tissues, like I said, so it is really difficult to
:02:01. > :02:07.get it out. The report found that mesh should only be used in certain
:02:08. > :02:11.circumstances. Resch surgery for prolapse, particularly of the
:02:12. > :02:17.bladder or the bowel, Stewart not be recommended as a first line
:02:18. > :02:24.treatment. -- should not be recommended. Com firstly, mesh
:02:25. > :02:30.surgery for incontinence is supported in that instance. The lead
:02:31. > :02:37.clinician on the study said complications could happen much
:02:38. > :02:41.later, as in Lorna's case. The study compared the number of adverse
:02:42. > :02:48.events that required admittance to hospital following procedures. But,
:02:49. > :02:52.it didn't look at the severity of these complications or, indeed the
:02:53. > :02:56.impact of this particular complications on patient's quality
:02:57. > :03:00.of life. The Scottish Government's own report on mesh will be published
:03:01. > :03:21.in the New Year. The Lorna, the damage is irreversible.
:03:22. > :03:26.The letter that Jamie Reid has just published said he is quitting front
:03:27. > :03:33.line politics at Westminster because he wants to take up a job with the
:03:34. > :03:36.nuclear industry in a plant in his constituency in Copland. He says as
:03:37. > :03:42.well he has a family that is growing up and the stresses and strains of
:03:43. > :03:46.being an MP or a long way away the Westminster -- as long way from
:03:47. > :03:50.Westminster, means he feels it is right that he stands down. He will
:03:51. > :03:58.do so at the end of January and take up his new position in February. He
:03:59. > :04:01.is, of course as well as being an MP of quite long standing in the
:04:02. > :04:05.north-west of England a critic of Jeremy Corbyn. But in the letter
:04:06. > :04:10.that he has produced he mentions nothing of that, he says he gets on
:04:11. > :04:13.with Joe Meek Colburn Fewell on a personal basis. This is certainly
:04:14. > :04:18.not an early Christmas present the Jeremy Corbyn, it will bring out
:04:19. > :04:21.what could be a fascinating by-election. Jamie Reid had a
:04:22. > :04:27.majority of two and half thousand at the general election in 2015. The
:04:28. > :04:34.Conservatives were second, Ukip with third with more than 6000 votes.
:04:35. > :04:40.This part of England almost mirror image Scotland inasmuch as, Cumbria
:04:41. > :04:46.voted 62% to leave the European Union, the highest place anywhere in
:04:47. > :04:51.the UK that registered at boats to leave the European Union. Ukip will
:04:52. > :04:55.hope they can chip away at Labour support. It will take a swing of
:04:56. > :05:00.just over 4% for the Conservatives to take that seat from Labour. It
:05:01. > :05:06.presages an extremely interesting by-election early next year. So,
:05:07. > :05:12.what ever Mr Reid says in his letter, one can issue the reaction
:05:13. > :05:16.from Jeremy Corbyn will be "Thanks for nothing, mate" yes it will be
:05:17. > :05:20.thank you this is a Christmas present I didn't fully one that this
:05:21. > :05:25.time of year. Ukip I think will feel, because of the strength of the
:05:26. > :05:29.leave macro voting Cumbria that they can target the Labour vote. They may
:05:30. > :05:33.not hope to win the by-election but if they took a significant number of
:05:34. > :05:34.it away but Labour then the Conservatives would be pretty
:05:35. > :05:55.confident that they could take this one. Jeremy Corbyn,
:05:56. > :05:57.quite frankly, needs this like a hole in the head at the moment. Are
:05:58. > :06:00.there any other murmurs because the anti-Corbyn people in the Labour
:06:01. > :06:02.Party have gone very quiet over the last few weeks and months since he
:06:03. > :06:05.won his second leadership context. Is this an indication that something
:06:06. > :06:08.might be happening or is it a one off. I think this is just a one off.
:06:09. > :06:11.Famous last words are predictions not been terribly accurate this
:06:12. > :06:15.year. What happened after Corbyn was re-elected in September, the
:06:16. > :06:19.majority of MPs who do not support him, thought actually we are just
:06:20. > :06:22.going to have to make the best of this now. Remember, Corbyn was
:06:23. > :06:29.elected with a large majority in September this year -- a larger
:06:30. > :06:33.majority in this year then he was last year. I think most Labour MPs
:06:34. > :06:37.think with Brexit and the boundary reviews that quite frankly they had
:06:38. > :06:41.better just keep their heads down. But, it will be very interesting,
:06:42. > :06:46.once this by-election takes place and who knows what the result will
:06:47. > :06:49.be, whether they, the critics of Jeremy Corbyn, of which in the
:06:50. > :06:53.Parliamentary Labour Party there are still a great deal, whether they
:06:54. > :06:57.will unfold in. Thank you very much, indeed.
:06:58. > :06:59.My guest today is commentator Geoff Aberdein former special
:07:00. > :07:11.Corbyn must think, what I done to deserve this? I am fascinated to
:07:12. > :07:15.know how Labour will position themselves in this by-election. Ukip
:07:16. > :07:23.will no doubt make it Brexit, and hurrying up Brexit. Where Labour are
:07:24. > :07:27.left in this position is fascinating. This could be quite
:07:28. > :07:32.cataclysmic bull Corbyn if it goes the wrong way. Although they would
:07:33. > :07:36.say, to be fed to Labour, no matter what you media people have been
:07:37. > :07:41.saying, in actual elections they haven't done very bad. That is true,
:07:42. > :07:48.but bear in mind, the point that David made about the adverse, in
:07:49. > :07:56.this area 62% voted to leave macro, it is going to be a difficult Pask.
:07:57. > :08:02.However, if Jeremy Corbyn manages to win this he will be be energised.
:08:03. > :08:08.What you make of where you are with Brexit at the moment? All over the
:08:09. > :08:12.place? Yesterday's intervention from the Scottish Government was very
:08:13. > :08:17.interesting. The politics of this fascinating. Nicola Sturgeon has
:08:18. > :08:21.quite forcefully said to Theresa May the ball is in your court, these are
:08:22. > :08:26.my plans and it is up to you to respond to them. But, it is not
:08:27. > :08:31.without weakness, if Theresa May comes back and says... If I was hair
:08:32. > :08:35.I would ask my officials to come back with something we could go back
:08:36. > :08:41.to Scotland with all stock may be something about immigration. Maybe
:08:42. > :08:46.something, corporation tax. If she does that, it will be difficult for
:08:47. > :08:55.the SMP... Plus, you say they'd go, have control maybe not entirely, of
:08:56. > :08:59.fisheries. All coming you can run agriculture, so perhaps we are not
:09:00. > :09:08.paying VAT receipt into the European Union so here is a few... If she
:09:09. > :09:14.does that it puts the SMP in an interesting position. There is a lot
:09:15. > :09:20.to play for, however the reverse is also true, to ease a pay -- if
:09:21. > :09:24.Theresa May to Mrs this out of hand... The other ambiguity of
:09:25. > :09:28.course, these things always seem cut and dry at the start. The other
:09:29. > :09:31.thing is the British Government will say, depending on what we already
:09:32. > :09:37.know about the Nissan deal, within one is, there is a possibility they
:09:38. > :09:40.will say we are sort of leaving the single market, but we are bit in,
:09:41. > :09:45.bit out, are you really going to leave the United Kingdom on that
:09:46. > :09:50.basis? Yes throughout this whole debate there's been differentiation
:09:51. > :09:58.between access and membership of the single market. If Theresa May can
:09:59. > :10:03.save that we will have certain access it will be difficult for
:10:04. > :10:08.Nicola Sturgeon. It has been good politics for the SMP. They need to
:10:09. > :10:14.get on the front foot and I think she is done. -- for the SNP. It is
:10:15. > :10:20.getting more complicated for them, the SNP have been terribly united,
:10:21. > :10:26.there are a few cracks appearing. We know that Alex Neil, former
:10:27. > :10:30.minister, voted leave. We know a third of SMP voters voted leave.
:10:31. > :10:39.This morning we have a nautical in the Herald saying, -- an article in
:10:40. > :10:47.the Herald. ... It's been a couple of years since I have been in
:10:48. > :10:53.government... And not blaming you. I understand. The point I would make
:10:54. > :10:59.is that political gravity always at fly in politics. The popular for
:11:00. > :11:02.ever. Nine years of running government, the SNP is coming into
:11:03. > :11:08.the same problems that other governments do. What did you make of
:11:09. > :11:12.the article, if you say that maybe Scotland in Europe isn't very
:11:13. > :11:17.attractive any more, we should decouple independence referendum
:11:18. > :11:20.from your lip, you can't say we are going to have an independence
:11:21. > :11:26.referendum because of Brexit but it has nothing to do with Europe. Is
:11:27. > :11:31.what he is saying code for let's not have an independence referendum for
:11:32. > :11:35.while anyway? Yes, the problem with that is if you take the perspective
:11:36. > :11:40.of the Scottish Government, they went into last year's election on a
:11:41. > :11:44.manifesto pledge to have potentially a referendum if there was a leave
:11:45. > :11:48.vote in the UK and" in Scotland and that is what has happened. So, she
:11:49. > :11:52.is following Bill on her manifesto pledge. It is difficult for Nicola
:11:53. > :11:55.Sturgeon to come up with another justification for the time being
:11:56. > :11:58.given that was in a manifesto. Listen, matching you are sitting
:11:59. > :12:02.there late used to be of Alex Salmond, with Nicola Sturgeon.
:12:03. > :12:05.You've done on this, you are feeling quite pleased at how went down
:12:06. > :12:08.yesterday and you are having a meeting this morning in Somerset
:12:09. > :12:17.that was all great, but what exactly do we do next, what would you and
:12:18. > :12:20.speak? -- and someone says. The problem is you are not putting a
:12:21. > :12:24.gauge of this debate in the hands of Westminster government and now we
:12:25. > :12:29.have to wait for the response. There is a committee in January in which
:12:30. > :12:33.we will find out more. But do keep on is you aren't leaving it up to
:12:34. > :12:37.Theresa May to decide what the next that will be. Yes, to be fed to be
:12:38. > :12:42.Scottish Government it is quite clear, looking at the document that
:12:43. > :12:46.they have realised that any idea of Scotland staying in the European
:12:47. > :12:52.Economic Area, when Britain leaves the single market is entirely in the
:12:53. > :12:56.gift of the British Government, because it's the member state, you
:12:57. > :13:01.are absolutely right in what you say that they had to concede that. It
:13:02. > :13:04.wouldn't have been credible to come out and say that they would join the
:13:05. > :13:11.EU no matter what the British Government says. Overall, it is good
:13:12. > :13:15.politics, they have been on the back foot, but now they are on the front
:13:16. > :13:22.foot and have been proactive about the most important public debate
:13:23. > :13:25.today. I just worry, from her perspective, she was expecting
:13:26. > :13:29.Theresa May to dismiss out of hand to say yes we will do this, I think
:13:30. > :13:33.there will be a halfway house and if there is it'll be interesting to see
:13:34. > :13:37.how the SNP respond. The other problem will be the blog is called,
:13:38. > :13:42.what you do if you are Nicola Sturgeon, I don't know what your
:13:43. > :13:45.view is. It is quite clear that Alex Salmond is keen on another
:13:46. > :13:49.referendum, Nicola Sturgeon, neighbourly seem to be quite sure
:13:50. > :13:53.whether she's trying to keep everyone happy when she really wants
:13:54. > :14:00.one. -- nobody seems to be quite sure. All bets off. If you were in
:14:01. > :14:05.the situation with the polls the way they are, people say they don't want
:14:06. > :14:12.another referendum. If I compare it to when I was in government
:14:13. > :14:16.intervention and 12, the polls where at 28%, entered above 45, and there
:14:17. > :14:20.is no doubt that a yes vote has been declining slightly in the polls
:14:21. > :14:25.recently, but still in the mid-40s. If I was the UK Government I would
:14:26. > :14:29.be saying that is not low enough for us to call the bluff of Nicola
:14:30. > :14:32.Sturgeon, it is still relatively high. But, would you be thinking
:14:33. > :14:36.that a sign of the Scottish Government to go to another
:14:37. > :14:39.referendum. I think campaign to change things, either way, one thing
:14:40. > :14:44.that a surgeon and even those in the government would admit is that they
:14:45. > :14:48.have been promoting or defending independent since the last
:14:49. > :14:51.referendum. There was nothing proactive about independence.
:14:52. > :14:55.Campaigns can change things would be better or the words. I think the
:14:56. > :15:00.government will be well aware that this can be won or lost. To be
:15:01. > :15:04.continued, very shortly but first the member's debate in the chamber
:15:05. > :15:25.today is led by the health spokesperson for the Scottish
:15:26. > :15:43.I call on Alison Johnstone to call on the debate. A microphone please?
:15:44. > :16:01.Could you move to the next seat, perhaps? We are being jinxed. Any
:16:02. > :16:05.better. Thank you. I am very glad to have the opportunity of leading this
:16:06. > :16:09.debate this afternoon. I would like to thank Katrina Ogilvy and Karen
:16:10. > :16:13.Stewart whose petitions have gathered so much support and thanks
:16:14. > :16:19.as well to the national charity supporting premature and sick babies
:16:20. > :16:24.and many local families who raise funds for neonatal units, including
:16:25. > :16:30.members from Simpsons special care baby 's unit in Lothian who are here
:16:31. > :16:34.today. I want to focus on two important matters this afternoon.
:16:35. > :16:37.The private members bill in the House of Commons that seeks to
:16:38. > :16:42.extend maternity and paternity leave and pay for the parents of premature
:16:43. > :16:44.babies and the steps we can take in Scotland to improve financial
:16:45. > :16:48.support to families whose babies are born prematurely or require new
:16:49. > :16:59.natal care. I want to express my heartfelt support for Steve Reed 's
:17:00. > :17:01.private members bill in the Commons. Legislation relating to parental
:17:02. > :17:04.leave and pay is currently a reserved matter, however I am sure
:17:05. > :17:11.many of us here wish the campaign to extend pay for parents of premature
:17:12. > :17:16.babies every success. I understand that allowing an additional week of
:17:17. > :17:19.the statutory maternity pay for every full week the babies born
:17:20. > :17:23.before team -- term and this additional leave could be used as a
:17:24. > :17:26.shared parental leave between mothers and fathers. Campaigners
:17:27. > :17:31.have been calling for such changes to parental leave legislation for
:17:32. > :17:39.years. Currently parents premature babies are not entitled to any
:17:40. > :17:43.additional or paternity leave. In the difficult, distressing,
:17:44. > :17:51.unexpected period between the babies expected birth and the due date,
:17:52. > :17:55.time spent on a pre-natal ward. Families with prenatal care can't be
:17:56. > :17:59.faced with an average additional expense of ?218 a week on extra
:18:00. > :18:03.costs like childcare or travel are taken into account. These costs can
:18:04. > :18:09.impact on the number of visitors that parents can have with their
:18:10. > :18:10.premature baby. That was Alison Johnstone speaking there.
:18:11. > :18:13.The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has set out her plans
:18:14. > :18:15.for protecting Scotland's place in Europe after Brexit.
:18:16. > :18:18.She said she wanted Britain to remain in the single market -
:18:19. > :18:20.but if that wasn't possible, Scotland could stay in,
:18:21. > :18:25.Here's what she had to say to MSPs in the chamber yesterday.
:18:26. > :18:33.Scotland's place in Europe say it was a practical proposal to keep
:18:34. > :18:36.Scotland in the single market. It details the additional powers that
:18:37. > :18:41.the Scottish Government will need to serve and protect and promote the
:18:42. > :18:44.economic interests of Scotland in the post-Brexit landscape. Let me be
:18:45. > :18:50.very clear these proposals fall short of what I consider to be the
:18:51. > :18:53.best option for Scotland and the UK, full membership of the European
:18:54. > :19:00.Union. In the unlikely event that the UK Government had a change of
:19:01. > :19:05.heart they would have my change -- support but that is not an outcome
:19:06. > :19:08.in my gift. I am seeking to seek a sensible way forward for Scotland
:19:09. > :19:13.that respects the reality of the situation we find ourselves in. In
:19:14. > :19:15.that regard these proposals represent a significant compromise
:19:16. > :19:21.on the part of the Scottish Government, not a high bar for the
:19:22. > :19:25.UK Government to pass. Let me give you the detail of the paper. It sets
:19:26. > :19:29.out in considerable depth while keeping our place the single market
:19:30. > :19:33.matters so much, in matters principally to our economy, jobs,
:19:34. > :19:36.trade, living standards and investment, it is estimated that
:19:37. > :19:41.being outside the single market could cost the Scottish economy
:19:42. > :19:46.80,000 jobs. Workers could lose ?2000 a year after a decade of a
:19:47. > :19:50.hard Brexit. Being in the single market also ensures protection for
:19:51. > :19:51.workers and consumer rights and facilitates the skills that our
:19:52. > :20:29.economy depends on and allows us all to
:20:30. > :20:31.travel, study and work across Europe if we so wish. It would guarantee
:20:32. > :20:33.the rights of EU citizens already living here, something that
:20:34. > :20:36.disgracefully UK Government is still not done six months on. It provides
:20:37. > :20:38.a platform for cooperation on some of the major issues of our times,
:20:39. > :20:41.like climate change. The paper sets out the primary ways in which
:20:42. > :20:43.Scotland boss might place in the single market can be protected and
:20:44. > :20:46.it has three principal strands. We propose that the UK as a whole
:20:47. > :20:49.should stay in the single market by remaining a party to the European
:20:50. > :20:52.economic and it should also stay in the customs of the EU and the single
:20:53. > :20:54.market are not one and the same, they are it is important to remember
:20:55. > :20:57.that membership of the EU and the single market are not one and the
:20:58. > :21:01.same, they are two distinct I accept there is a mandate in England and a
:21:02. > :21:04.stew take the UK out of the EU but I do not accept that there is a
:21:05. > :21:06.mandate to take any part of the UK out of the single market, it would
:21:07. > :21:09.make no economic sense whatsoever for the UK to leave the single
:21:10. > :21:11.market and it would be economic folly of the highest order and it
:21:12. > :21:14.would be entirely democratic I accept there is a mandate in England
:21:15. > :21:18.and a still take the UK out of the EU but I do not accept that there is
:21:19. > :21:20.a mandate to take any part of the UK out of the single market, it would
:21:21. > :21:23.make no economic sense whatsoever for the UK to leave the single
:21:24. > :21:26.market and it would be economic folly of the highest order and it
:21:27. > :21:28.would be entirely for the UK to remain within the single market. The
:21:29. > :21:31.Scottish Government will continue to argue and seek to build consensus
:21:32. > :21:33.with others of like mind across the UK for continued UK membership of
:21:34. > :21:35.the. However I reluctantly accept that as government, that seems at
:21:36. > :21:38.this stage an unlikely outcome. The Tories quite unbelievably in my view
:21:39. > :21:40.seem intent on placing a higher priority on cutting immigration than
:21:41. > :21:42.on absolutely anything else. The economy, jobs, living standards, or
:21:43. > :21:44.lag way behind on their list of priorities. As a result the second
:21:45. > :21:47.strand of this paper proposes ways in which Scotland could stay in the
:21:48. > :21:51.single market even if the rest of the UK chooses to leave. In that
:21:52. > :21:53.respect it is worth, given the rhetoric of the Conservative
:21:54. > :21:55.government, that seems at this stage an unlikely outcome. The Tories
:21:56. > :21:57.quite unbelievably in my view seem intent on placing a higher priority
:21:58. > :21:59.on cutting immigration than on absolutely anything else. The
:22:00. > :22:02.economy, jobs, living standards, or lag way behind on their list of
:22:03. > :22:04.priorities. As a result the second strand of this paper proposes ways
:22:05. > :22:07.in which Scotland could stay in the single market even if the rest of
:22:08. > :22:09.the UK chooses to leave. In that respect it is that what we would
:22:10. > :22:12.propose would not see Scotland having a different relationship with
:22:13. > :22:14.the customs union to the rest of Scotland to be in both the single
:22:15. > :22:17.market and the customs union. We hope the UK will stay in the customs
:22:18. > :22:20.union and if it does say this proposal would enable Scotland being
:22:21. > :22:23.both the single market and the. However if the UK opts to leave then
:22:24. > :22:25.Scotland would not be in the customs union is why I argue that the UK
:22:26. > :22:27.should stay in it although those disadvantages would be minimised if
:22:28. > :22:30.Scotland remained in the single market there will be disadvantages
:22:31. > :22:33.to Scottish businesses if we are not in the customs union and that is why
:22:34. > :22:35.I argue that the UK should stay in it although those disadvantages
:22:36. > :22:37.would be minimised if Scotland remained in the single under this
:22:38. > :22:40.proposal the border between Scotland and England would not be an external
:22:41. > :22:42.EU customs border. In effect a customs union between Scotland and
:22:43. > :22:44.the UK at the moment would continue. The final strand of in effect a
:22:45. > :22:50.customs union between Scotland and the UK at the moment would continue.
:22:51. > :22:53.The final strand of deals with the powers of this Scottish parliament.
:22:54. > :22:59.It is in my view time for a fundamental the paper argues that in
:23:00. > :23:01.light of the removal of rights and responsibilities the paper argues
:23:02. > :23:07.that in light of the removal of rights and responsibilities provided
:23:08. > :23:11.by EU law demands considerably enhanced demands considerably
:23:12. > :23:15.Parliament. We look at three broad categories of power that must now
:23:16. > :23:18.could be considered. It looks at the powers set to strengthened demands
:23:19. > :23:20.in this Parliament. We look at three broad categories of power that must
:23:21. > :23:24.now be considered. It looks at the powers set to be such as fishing,
:23:25. > :23:29.the environment, justice and agriculture. I hope all members will
:23:30. > :23:33.agree unreservedly that these powers must remain such as fishing, the
:23:34. > :23:35.environment, justice and agriculture. I hope all members will
:23:36. > :23:39.agree unreservedly that these powers must remain firmly within our
:23:40. > :23:44.competence. If there is a need to agree done by agreement and not in
:23:45. > :23:46.position. Brexit must not become an agreement on any matter such as
:23:47. > :23:51.animal welfare it must be done by agreement and not imposition. Brexit
:23:52. > :23:56.must not become for a Westminster power grab. Secondly powers to be
:23:57. > :24:00.repatriated which as employment law and social protection would allow
:24:01. > :24:03.this Parliament to protect cue rights and avoid the risk of a
:24:04. > :24:05.deregulated race to currently devolved should also now be just
:24:06. > :24:07.considered for devolution, powers such as employment law and social
:24:08. > :24:09.protection would allow this Parliament to protect cue rights and
:24:10. > :24:12.avoid the risk of a deregulated race to by Westminster. Thirdly, a much
:24:13. > :24:16.broader range of powers proposed in this paper must also be considered,
:24:17. > :24:22.for example power over immigration. It is worth noting I think that
:24:23. > :24:28.growing support across the UK for greater flexibility over immigration
:24:29. > :24:32.is now increasingly being expressed. In short the proposals in the paper
:24:33. > :24:37.are detailed and serious and reasonable. They are designed
:24:38. > :24:41.deliberately and unashamedly to respect the Scottish voice and
:24:42. > :24:43.protect our interests. We are also acknowledging and respecting the
:24:44. > :24:45.vote in other parts of the UK and the position the UK Government now
:24:46. > :24:48.finds itself in as a result. Now let's speak to some
:24:49. > :24:50.MSPs at Holyrood. I'm joined by Joan McAlpine for the
:24:51. > :24:53.SNP, the Conservatives Adam Tomkins, Jackie Baillie from Labour,
:24:54. > :25:07.The Greens Ross Greer and Alex I am curious as to where we are now.
:25:08. > :25:10.Ross, you in the Green party would presumably agree with every word of
:25:11. > :25:15.the Scottish Government 's paper on Brexit, would you? Is not quite. It
:25:16. > :25:18.is a pretty significant compromise the Scottish Government are going
:25:19. > :25:21.for. We welcome the work they have put an end these are credible
:25:22. > :25:24.proposals but as far as we're concerned is converted to stay the
:25:25. > :25:27.European Union that is an option we are trying to pursue. What the
:25:28. > :25:31.Scottish Government has proposed is option short of that that would
:25:32. > :25:35.still be damaging. There is an Institute party -- my paper that we
:25:36. > :25:39.have all been stating that shows a Norway style membership would result
:25:40. > :25:43.in about 40,000 lost jobs and a drop in the average way. This is damage
:25:44. > :25:51.limitation. It is understandable but not enough. How do you propose to
:25:52. > :25:53.stay in the EU while staying in the United Kingdom? Scottish Greens
:25:54. > :25:57.don't want to stay in the United Kingdom, we want an independent
:25:58. > :26:00.scholar with its own seat at the European table. We had a referendum
:26:01. > :26:04.two years ago and is that now mean absolutely nothing? What we were
:26:05. > :26:09.campaigning on two years ago, everything has changed entirely
:26:10. > :26:12.since then. Two years ago the Conservatives and Ruth Davidson were
:26:13. > :26:17.saying in particular to vote no to stay in the European Union. So you
:26:18. > :26:20.want to ignore the results of the independence referendum in Scotland
:26:21. > :26:25.and ignore the results of the Brexit referendum? The results of the
:26:26. > :26:29.Brexit referendum Scotland were two in three people wanted to stay in
:26:30. > :26:31.the European Union. We have two referendum result that contradict
:26:32. > :26:34.each other and the right thing to do would be to give the people of
:26:35. > :26:37.Scotland a choice because it will probably come down to a choice
:26:38. > :26:45.between Europe or the UK and I think people deserve that choice. Alex
:26:46. > :26:47.Cole-Hamilton, is there any difference between what the Liberal
:26:48. > :26:52.Democrats and the Scottish Government say? All the things that
:26:53. > :26:57.are being demanded sound like a federal Britain? Not quite. This has
:26:58. > :27:02.always been a Trojan horse for the SNP 's overarching aim which is
:27:03. > :27:08.another crack at the independence referendum. We joined those
:27:09. > :27:11.discussions in the summer, on a cross-party basis, wherein Nicola
:27:12. > :27:15.Sturgeon... I hear what you are saying about the Nationalists was
:27:16. > :27:20.arguing for nationalism, I get that, but what I am asking you is the
:27:21. > :27:22.terms of what Nicola Sturgeon is proposing, that Scotland being in
:27:23. > :27:26.the European economic area and a whole shed load of powers being
:27:27. > :27:38.repatriated from Brussels straight to Edinburgh, is there anything in
:27:39. > :27:40.that that you would disagree with? This is a highly complex at the
:27:41. > :27:43.proposals which is automatically rubbished by not only her own
:27:44. > :27:46.advisers but diplomats in Brussels on the UK Government. What we have
:27:47. > :27:48.said from the start is that we need to revisit the Brexit question.
:27:49. > :27:50.People in the UK voted for a departure but not a destination and
:27:51. > :27:53.now we have buyers' regret across many voting factions who recognise
:27:54. > :28:00.they have been sold a pup. Buyers' regret means you want another
:28:01. > :28:02.referendum? Absolutely. So on the Democratic scorecard the greens want
:28:03. > :28:06.to ignore two referendums but you only want to ignore one. You have a
:28:07. > :28:12.metaphysically precise argument that says you should ignore the Brexit
:28:13. > :28:15.referendum but play accident attention to the independence
:28:16. > :28:18.referendum. The Tories made it very clear what an independent Scotland
:28:19. > :28:21.would look like and people went into the ballot box to vote with their
:28:22. > :28:26.eyes open on those two propositions but in this we had no idea that are
:28:27. > :28:29.hard Brexit would follow and that we would be leaving the EU and leaving
:28:30. > :28:33.the single market. Let me finish with this. If the result to be the
:28:34. > :28:40.other way round, if the remain camp had now been pushing for a hard
:28:41. > :28:43.remain, which was adoption of the euro, joining a European super Army,
:28:44. > :28:47.would we be having the same kind of reaction? Jackie Baillie, how many
:28:48. > :28:50.referendum results do you want to ignore? I don't want to ignore any
:28:51. > :28:53.of them. The Scottish people have handed us a complex set of results
:28:54. > :28:57.they have made clear they wanted to stay in the United Kingdom and they
:28:58. > :29:03.have also said they want to remain in Europe so we are trying to square
:29:04. > :29:07.and impossible circle here but let me save this... Does Labour disagree
:29:08. > :29:11.with Nicola Sturgeon 's demand that Scotland should one way or the other
:29:12. > :29:21.be able to stay in the European economic area? What we have said
:29:22. > :29:24.quite clearly as we want access to the single market because we want to
:29:25. > :29:27.protect the economy and protect jobs but it is the practicality of Nicola
:29:28. > :29:29.Sturgeon 's proposals that have not yet been tested. I am concerned that
:29:30. > :29:32.one of her advisers says quite clearly that he doesn't think it
:29:33. > :29:39.would be possible. I am told it is three. We also have Iceland saying
:29:40. > :29:42.that they didn't think membership of the European economic area is
:29:43. > :29:47.possible. I would like us to remain the single market. Would you like
:29:48. > :29:50.Nicola Sturgeon to revert to the practical and well worked out
:29:51. > :29:55.proposals from the Labour Party that had to stay in the single market, if
:29:56. > :30:03.only she can find them? I think we have said quite a bit of what we
:30:04. > :30:06.would do and we would be willing to sit down and have discussions on how
:30:07. > :30:10.to retain access to the single market. Nicola Sturgeon starting
:30:11. > :30:14.point was that we had to remain as members of the EU and as we are not
:30:15. > :30:18.able to do so I think she has now moved on to territory where she is
:30:19. > :30:21.seeking to compromise but if she wanted to deliver unity in this
:30:22. > :30:23.country she would absolutely take off the table the second
:30:24. > :30:27.independence referendum because that is what the majority of the
:30:28. > :30:33.population have rejected time and again. What they want is practical
:30:34. > :30:37.action. Alan Tomkins, given Ruth Davidson is profound than deep love
:30:38. > :30:42.of everything to do the single market, presumably you would like to
:30:43. > :30:44.examine closely the proposals from Nicola Sturgeon and ask David
:30:45. > :30:50.Mundell to argue for them in Cabinet?
:30:51. > :30:57.yes, I said yesterday in the chamber that there is a lot in the Scottish
:30:58. > :31:06.Government's proposals that we can work with. What we want is for the
:31:07. > :31:11.whole of the United Kingdom... What we absolutely do not want to see, is
:31:12. > :31:15.the single market of the United Kingdom being jeopardised by
:31:16. > :31:19.Scotland being in the customs union and the rest of the United Kingdom
:31:20. > :31:24.not being in the customs union. So you against a separate deal for
:31:25. > :31:27.Scotland? I think proposals about different deals are very difficult.
:31:28. > :31:32.You seem to say you are against it. What we need to be thinking about is
:31:33. > :31:35.ways in which we can sensibly differentiate the deal that the
:31:36. > :31:39.United Kingdom will seek to negotiate sector by sector. Why
:31:40. > :31:43.higher education institutions in Scotland need to have a different
:31:44. > :31:47.deal with regard to the European Union then they south of the border,
:31:48. > :31:52.why are farmers in Perthshire so different from farmers in Yorkshire
:31:53. > :31:56.or call more? Why financial institutions in Edinburgh different
:31:57. > :32:08.than those in London? -- or Cornwall. The
:32:09. > :32:11.idea that there was something Scotland specific is one of the big
:32:12. > :32:13.holes in yesterday's paper. One of the big areas of disagreement
:32:14. > :32:16.between us and the Scottish Government. We have to understand
:32:17. > :32:19.that Scotland trade four times as much with the UK as it does with the
:32:20. > :32:21.whole of the European Union. We don't want to jeopardise the UK
:32:22. > :32:24.market in order to keep the Scotland in the single market. Joe McAlpine,
:32:25. > :32:32.everyone beside you apart and Ross Greer, thinks, has said, that this
:32:33. > :32:37.is just a blue, the latest news in the SNP's attempt at the
:32:38. > :32:40.independence referendum. I'm not sure that is what they say but can I
:32:41. > :32:44.just said Adam Tomkins is just revealed what a really thinks of
:32:45. > :32:49.this place, this Scottish parliament, because the logical
:32:50. > :32:53.conclusion of his comments about our education, for example, is that you
:32:54. > :33:00.wouldn't have a Scottish parliament absolute non-chintz, and you could
:33:01. > :33:06.do better than that -- nonsense. This payback is a compromise, a big
:33:07. > :33:09.compromise because the SNP is about delivering what is best but the
:33:10. > :33:13.people of Scotland. What I asked you is what you were applied to the
:33:14. > :33:18.people beside you who said they don't like the way you are using
:33:19. > :33:21.this as an excuse to bang on about independence. As far as I'm
:33:22. > :33:26.concerned they are all over the place. Laughter macro will stop the
:33:27. > :33:29.Scottish Government are the only government, party who have put
:33:30. > :33:34.forward a very clearly worked out plan and it is up for others to
:33:35. > :33:37.bring forward their appraisals. Brexit is conjugated and difficult,
:33:38. > :33:44.that is why the UK Government still haven't told us exactly why they're
:33:45. > :33:50.going to do. -- complicated. Excuse me, you have had your say! UC
:33:51. > :33:55.differentiation all over Europe, the European committee has taken a lot
:33:56. > :34:01.of evidence, you see the regions in Belgian, how much they have had
:34:02. > :34:04.intensive negotiating treaties. Europe is a political institution
:34:05. > :34:08.that can compromise and there is a lot of goodwill to Scotland out
:34:09. > :34:12.there. All right, at least for a couple argued there is a challenge
:34:13. > :34:18.that. Jackie Baillie, as Joe MacAlpine says, you might not agree
:34:19. > :34:22.with every dot and, in the document, but at least it is a serious bit of
:34:23. > :34:27.work. Labour hasn't done anything? It's not true but we will consider
:34:28. > :34:33.the Scottish Government's document. Where is Jeremy Corbyn or Dugdale in
:34:34. > :34:39.all this? The point I was making is that if you want to build a
:34:40. > :34:43.consensus to build the very best in Scotland it is not the example but
:34:44. > :34:49.Joe MacAlpine has given. We all share in care for Scotland and its
:34:50. > :34:56.people's interest. To suggest that we don't is very remit of her. In
:34:57. > :35:02.why doesn't labour it in Scotland or the UK come up with decent proposals
:35:03. > :35:07.of its own? We have explain how we would like to keep access to the
:35:08. > :35:10.single market which is very important for whole host of reasons
:35:11. > :35:15.we have set out clearly in the table and elsewhere. -- in the chamber. I
:35:16. > :35:20.want us to work together on a practical solution, not on something
:35:21. > :35:25.that we wish to happen if we keep our fingers crossed but someone that
:35:26. > :35:33.is deliverable potentially. Rob Greer, I am furious as what you
:35:34. > :35:40.want. -- Ross Greer I am furious. Do you think Nicola Sturgeon should
:35:41. > :35:44.walk out on proposed another referendum instead of these silly
:35:45. > :35:49.papers... These are not silly papers, these are credible papers
:35:50. > :35:53.we're looking at, but it is no secret that our desire is for an
:35:54. > :35:58.independent scholar with in the European Union. Everything remains
:35:59. > :36:01.to be seen at the moment. -- an independent Scotland. We don't know
:36:02. > :36:07.what the Brexit deal will shape up as. Our reaction to this was quite
:36:08. > :36:12.clear... When do think there should be another referendum? I think if
:36:13. > :36:16.the UK's government dismisses the Scottish ideas at hand we will need
:36:17. > :36:26.to have I referendum quite soon in the Article 50 process. Alex Cole
:36:27. > :36:36.Hamilton you have ten seconds to say pah. Pah indeed. We are standing
:36:37. > :36:44.where the country are. We had two referendums, Scotland wants to stay
:36:45. > :36:49.in the UK and -- stay in the UK and the European Union. Ten seconds that
:36:50. > :36:55.Adam Tomkins. What is the question, God. This idea we should move to
:36:56. > :36:59.having another referendum. We shouldn't we had a referendum, it
:37:00. > :37:04.was once a generation if not once-in-a-lifetime it was clear,
:37:05. > :37:07.fair and decisive, we asked a question -- we answered a question
:37:08. > :37:12.and said no thanks. There is no appetite in Scotland for a second
:37:13. > :37:14.referendum. Now we have a lovely Christmas shot at you all standing
:37:15. > :37:18.now we have to leave it. Now, a new Conservative MSP has been
:37:19. > :37:21.sworn in at Holyrood this afternoon. Bill Bowman will replace
:37:22. > :37:31.the late Alex Johnstone Will you please raise your right
:37:32. > :37:39.hand repeat after me? I William Archibald Bowman. I William
:37:40. > :37:43.Archibald Bowman. Do swear that I will be faithful and bear true
:37:44. > :37:48.allegiance do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to
:37:49. > :37:56.Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth has successors according to law. So help
:37:57. > :37:58.me God. So help me God. Thank you. Congratulations. Thank you very much
:37:59. > :38:07.indeed. APPLAUSE
:38:08. > :38:12.The Scottish Parliament has been remembering the late conservative,
:38:13. > :38:26.Alex Johnson he died two weeks ago at the short battle with cancer.
:38:27. > :38:35.He was one of the original class of 99. The meet, and a suspect the many
:38:36. > :38:39.he knew him, it is not his political legacy, nor his public service which
:38:40. > :38:45.will be at the front of our man's today so much as his warmth, his
:38:46. > :38:48.humanity and his tenderness. Alex is one of the most big hearted and
:38:49. > :38:53.engaging colleagues I had the pleasure of working with. And even
:38:54. > :38:58.when fellow MSPs disagreed with him no one could dislike him. He was a
:38:59. > :39:01.big man, bighearted he had a big personality and a big set of lungs
:39:02. > :39:08.on him when he wanted to be had on him. He was the last of our class of
:39:09. > :39:21.1999, and that ever presents and his heft made him seem
:39:22. > :39:26.impregnable, solid, vital, which is why his short illness and death at
:39:27. > :39:29.the age of just 55 is so shocking. We have been robbed of a good man
:39:30. > :39:31.far, far too early. Alex lent his public speaking long before he came
:39:32. > :39:34.to Parliament and he would walk in here with two or three lines written
:39:35. > :39:37.on a scrap of paper and stand up and deliver a whole speech without
:39:38. > :39:41.pause. Nothing blew him off course, no blows lounges, he will go into
:39:42. > :39:46.battle is on any subject, stand his ground speak with humour clash at
:39:47. > :39:50.anyone but buy him a drink after. He was robust in arguing his own
:39:51. > :39:54.viewpoint Annie always did so from a deep well of knowledge and learning
:39:55. > :39:58.and he brought passion to every subject that he addressed in this
:39:59. > :40:06.chamber, but he also always brought good grace, good humour, and, very
:40:07. > :40:11.often, a very welcome sense of perspective. I, myself, was on the
:40:12. > :40:16.receiving end of his quick wit in this chamber on more occasions than
:40:17. > :40:19.I care to remember. Indeed, in the last session of parliament in the
:40:20. > :40:23.days when the Conservatives sat on the other side of the chamber,
:40:24. > :40:28.during First Minister's Questions I would be googly out of the corner of
:40:29. > :40:31.my I just catch Alex Johnstone own jest be relating wildly at me as I
:40:32. > :40:37.made some very, very important point. I always assumed it was a
:40:38. > :40:40.deliberate, and I have to say usually highly successful attempt at
:40:41. > :40:46.throwing me completely off of my stride. When he made his maiden
:40:47. > :40:49.speech in June 1999 he began by saying I come from the farming
:40:50. > :40:54.community, not these flowers borne away lived to this day, for the next
:40:55. > :40:59.17 years that every day of the 17 years it is fair to say that none of
:41:00. > :41:05.those were ever in any doubt about his passion for his home area. He
:41:06. > :41:10.was a proud champion of the north-east, he shared his local area
:41:11. > :41:20.passion of the blade and represented all of his constituencies with
:41:21. > :41:24.diligent and conscientiousness. Move we had our own Coalition agreement
:41:25. > :41:28.for five years, and he told me that no matter what I said, and how much
:41:29. > :41:34.he disagreed with what I was saying, he would dump the table in approval.
:41:35. > :41:37.He did that for five years no matter how offensive I was about the
:41:38. > :41:43.Conservatives he would still buying the table, true to his word. He did
:41:44. > :41:47.not expect any thing in the ten, but he did get an awful lot more than
:41:48. > :41:56.that and that was respect from everyone in this chamber. It's very
:41:57. > :42:02.sad Alex Johnstone, a very decent man, you are a North East man
:42:03. > :42:06.yourself an new? I am I met him a few times and it is very rarely you
:42:07. > :42:10.get some and he was good at their job and liked across the political
:42:11. > :42:17.spectrum and he was certainly that. He had that authority. He would say
:42:18. > :42:22.he knew about agriculture. He knew exactly what he was talking about.
:42:23. > :42:26.I'll is bound him so gracious. He actually gave me some good words of
:42:27. > :42:28.advice in my younger years and I will always remember that and I
:42:29. > :42:38.think Parliament will miss him sorely. If you are doing nationalism
:42:39. > :42:43.101 with Ross clear from the Greens, how would you explain to him that
:42:44. > :42:49.going for an independence referendum right now is not a great idea? I
:42:50. > :42:53.understand his position, one thing I was say very quickly, I'm struck by
:42:54. > :42:56.the contributions from the politicians, the one party that
:42:57. > :43:04.struck me for a narrative if the Labour Party. Labour sorely needs a
:43:05. > :43:08.narrative. The Greens are pitching their tent on independence, fell
:43:09. > :43:15.enough. They can grow support from that. They stunned the liberal end
:43:16. > :43:19.Democrats. Labour have something to lose any to get a coherent
:43:20. > :43:23.narrative. That should take the Lib Dems, even if half the people in
:43:24. > :43:28.Britain who voted the Tadhg Beirne think there should be a second
:43:29. > :43:36.referendum, that still gives them a quarter of the operation. -- voted
:43:37. > :43:43.Remain. Labour needs to appeal to those who voted Leave. Labour have
:43:44. > :43:46.got to get right across the barrier. Nicola Sturgeon is making the point
:43:47. > :43:48.that she turned to compromise and bring a case for independence in the
:43:49. > :43:50.long time but the Labour Party need to reach across both sides of
:43:51. > :43:52.the fence. That's all from us for this
:43:53. > :43:54.week and this year. Politics Scotland
:43:55. > :43:56.will be back in 2017. Until then, Merry Christmas
:43:57. > :44:24.and a Happy New Year! It's Christmas mayhem
:44:25. > :44:26.across the country. The city centre,
:44:27. > :44:30.just Sodom and Gomorrah. Which, you know,
:44:31. > :44:32.is not so exciting for us, really. The mistletoe and crime
:44:33. > :44:35.festive special. Are you asking people to believe
:44:36. > :44:43.that that horse is a reindeer? Whole planet's got it wrong for
:44:44. > :44:44.years! The right answer is... I'm relying on Josh to get this one
:44:45. > :44:46.right. Watch and learn. Is it ah-ba-ah-ah? The Bee Gees.
:44:47. > :44:51.Sherlock Holmes. Anyone have a clue? A funny dance?
:44:52. > :44:56.No, no dancing... Swan.