:00:17. > :00:19.Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.
:00:20. > :00:22.It's day two of the debate at Holyrood on whether there should
:00:23. > :00:37.For the UK Government to stand on the way of Scotland having a choice
:00:38. > :00:45.would be unfair non-sustainable. Most people in Scotland I was sick
:00:46. > :00:47.to death of the games. Most people do not want another referendum any
:00:48. > :00:50.time soon. The debate re-starts in 10 minutes -
:00:51. > :00:53.MSPs are gathering And here at Westminster,
:00:54. > :00:56.the politics of Brexit and Scottish independence become entangled,
:00:57. > :00:59.as Theresa May and the SNP clash The Scottish Parliament
:01:00. > :01:04.continues its debate in the next few minutes on whether there should be
:01:05. > :01:07.a second independence referendum. MSPs are expected to back
:01:08. > :01:09.First Minister's plan Our political editor
:01:10. > :01:30.Brian Taylor is at Holyrood now. What have we learned today? . It is
:01:31. > :01:33.day two so they will continue from yesterday. They opened with the main
:01:34. > :01:37.speakers from the parties yesterday. It is a two-day debate for the
:01:38. > :01:47.Liberal Democrats. To crush it into one day would be too short. They
:01:48. > :01:53.carry on today. They are not having opening front bench speakers. Wii U
:01:54. > :01:59.go to 5:30pm. Adelaide Ft. It is expected that the Greens will vote
:02:00. > :02:05.with the SNP to do manned powers be to hold a referendum. It is that
:02:06. > :02:09.that point that one has to take a judgment as to the status of that.
:02:10. > :02:16.The tours bash Macs Scottish Government and the Green supporters,
:02:17. > :02:20.Patrick Harvie just coming up here now. The Scottish National Party and
:02:21. > :02:26.their potential Green supporters will see that if there is a majority
:02:27. > :02:32.here at Holyrood that Parliament has spoken, that the Prime Minister
:02:33. > :02:38.should pay heed to that and transfer those powers. We had a pre-emptive
:02:39. > :02:40.strike from the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland and
:02:41. > :02:44.the leader of the Scottish Conservatives saying they wanted to
:02:45. > :02:50.make it clear what would be their reply and the reply is no, not no,
:02:51. > :02:54.not during the breaks that period. It is likely you have a stand-off
:02:55. > :03:01.and series of persuasive manoeuvres, each trying to cajole the others.
:03:02. > :03:06.Have you got any sense of the debate of where it is going? You say as
:03:07. > :03:09.stand-off but Theresa May just as there will not be a section 30 if
:03:10. > :03:18.you still feel very strongly about this in two or three years' time,
:03:19. > :03:21.come back and we will have a chat about. What happens? It is not easy
:03:22. > :03:26.to see what the First Minister does to change her mind if the Prime
:03:27. > :03:31.Minister remains adamant. Along the lines of saying no, no and no and
:03:32. > :03:33.not listening and not taking the question any longer. There are a
:03:34. > :03:37.number of options open. Some not palatable to her. She can call an
:03:38. > :03:44.unofficial referendum. She does not think that will have status and will
:03:45. > :03:48.not be regarded well by the people of Scotland. She could attempt to
:03:49. > :03:55.call an early election, it is not in her gift, it is our vote by
:03:56. > :04:00.Parliament 's ear itself whether it resolves -- dissolves. That is not
:04:01. > :04:07.going to happen. The SNP say they have a mandate already. You are down
:04:08. > :04:10.to persuading and cajoling. I have asked many people and I have not
:04:11. > :04:16.heard good and sewers, at the strongest as has come from inside
:04:17. > :04:21.parliament. When it comes to negotiations, they will, stage when
:04:22. > :04:28.the UK Government needs the support of the legislative consent of the
:04:29. > :04:31.Scottish Government and parliament and that gives them something of a
:04:32. > :04:35.lever to prise away end. Is a powerful and strong? No, it is not
:04:36. > :04:40.but that is where we are. The politics of this, one assumes that
:04:41. > :04:44.Nicola Sturgeon will hope that people of Scotland will feel so
:04:45. > :04:48.outraged that they will get more support for independence. And the
:04:49. > :04:59.Labour Party and Ruth Davidson and Theresa May will hope that people
:05:00. > :05:01.get fed off of it. It is all absolutely finally and ultimately
:05:02. > :05:06.all about the mood of the Scottish people. Nicola Sturgeon's belief is
:05:07. > :05:16.that people will be dismayed and outraged that the possibility of a
:05:17. > :05:22.referendum has been taken away. She believes that the people of Scotland
:05:23. > :05:25.will feel sufficiently outraged and as the Brexit information comes to
:05:26. > :05:28.Fulton out, they will want to have a say, again from the First Minister's
:05:29. > :05:40.perspective, giving Scotland a choice. The opposite is what the
:05:41. > :05:44.government believe. You have to prime ministers, two parliaments,
:05:45. > :05:50.you have competing mandates, competing interpretations of the
:05:51. > :06:02.political status of Scotland and the UK. But ultimately you have an
:06:03. > :06:03.appeal to the populace for support. Thank you very much for that.
:06:04. > :06:04.Crystal clear as always. The Prime Minister, Theresa May,
:06:05. > :06:06.said last week that now was not the time
:06:07. > :06:08.to hold a second referendum Our Westminster Correspondent
:06:09. > :06:11.David Porter is here. Politicians in London
:06:12. > :06:22.are watching developments at What do you expect the government to
:06:23. > :06:33.do if anything? I would imagine what we will get from the government
:06:34. > :06:35.later on is what we got from them last week. Now is not the right
:06:36. > :06:38.time. Ten Downing St is expecting the Scottish Parliament to pass the
:06:39. > :06:45.motion this afternoon and although the result is expected it is going
:06:46. > :06:57.to be no less significant for them. I would expect at some point Downing
:06:58. > :07:01.Street to come out with a form of words that says we hear what the
:07:02. > :07:02.Scottish Parliament has said but we still regard it as untenable to
:07:03. > :07:15.think about an independence referendum in Scotland while the
:07:16. > :07:18.Brexit negotiations are going on. There will be many saying to Theresa
:07:19. > :07:21.May, you have made that statement, you can in no way go back on it now.
:07:22. > :07:27.The interesting point there is what do you think the government would
:07:28. > :07:28.do? The government could say in response to Nicola Sturgeon, let's
:07:29. > :07:28.have some talks on a date or they could refuse to get involved in
:07:29. > :07:31.that. And say, we have said there will not be a section 30 order. If
:07:32. > :07:36.you and the Scottish Government feel you want a referendum in two or
:07:37. > :07:39.three years' time, come back and we will have a chat then. But we will
:07:40. > :07:48.not formally respond at the moment. , There is a school of thought
:07:49. > :07:59.thinking that is the way to go ahead. The focus will move onto
:08:00. > :08:04.Brexit and Downing Street will think what it will like to park the
:08:05. > :08:05.independence issue ever could. There were some comments that Theresa May
:08:06. > :08:08.made last week which said no, not at the moment. But she did not rule out
:08:09. > :08:10.forever and a day there would be a second independence referendum in
:08:11. > :08:13.Scotland. But her advisers and her making it plain, they will not go
:08:14. > :08:25.into negotiations while Brexit negotiations are going on. Speaking
:08:26. > :08:27.to a few MPs across the political spectrum, at the field perhaps the
:08:28. > :08:30.earliest could be any referendum would be the autumn of 2019. They
:08:31. > :08:36.say at the end of the day there will have to be compromise on both sides
:08:37. > :09:07.on this issue but paying bash Maclay of very high
:09:08. > :09:09.stakes. Although they are diametrically opposite, Nicola
:09:10. > :09:16.Sturgeon and Theresa May. They are quite similar. I spoke to one senior
:09:17. > :09:22.MP how he thought it might play out. He went, it is going to be like two
:09:23. > :09:24.big beasts clashing with each other. They see both parties as very
:09:25. > :09:27.different term and on theirs. They are paying for high stakes. Any
:09:28. > :09:29.negotiations that has to be compromise. But at the moment there
:09:30. > :09:36.is no sign of that from any side. Thank you for that. You will be back
:09:37. > :09:37.later in the programme. Is that rain behind you? Who knows?
:09:38. > :09:39.As you've been hearing, today is the second day
:09:40. > :09:42.Yesterday, there were lively exchanges, with the Scottish
:09:43. > :09:44.Conservatives arguing there's no public consent for a second
:09:45. > :09:48.Labour and the Lib Dems say Scotland would be better off
:09:49. > :09:52.While the Greens say the people must have their say and tonight they'll
:09:53. > :09:55.join with the SNP to form a pro-independence majority -
:09:56. > :09:56.stating that parliament seeks a second referendum.
:09:57. > :10:00.The voice of this Parliament has spent a good every step of the way.
:10:01. > :10:03.We faced the prospect of the UK Government using Brexit to preserve
:10:04. > :10:06.for itself powers. The voice of this Parliament has been ignored at every
:10:07. > :10:10.step of the weight and far from any indication of new powers, we now
:10:11. > :10:12.face the prospect of the UK Government using Brexit to reserve
:10:13. > :10:16.for itself powers in areas that are currently devolved to this
:10:17. > :10:22.Parliament. I want to turn out to the question of the timing of a
:10:23. > :10:26.referendum. As a matter of principle, the timing together with
:10:27. > :10:33.decisions on franchise and subject to that of advice of the advisory
:10:34. > :10:39.board. The Prime Minister has said that now is not the time and I agree
:10:40. > :10:44.with that. The choice must be informed. That means it should not
:10:45. > :10:50.happen before the terms of Brexit are known. In this speech she gave
:10:51. > :10:54.at Lancaster House in January, the Prime Minister said there is and I
:10:55. > :11:00.caught, I want is to have reached an agreement on future ownership by the
:11:01. > :11:03.time the two-year Article 50 process has happened. The terms of that
:11:04. > :11:12.agreement will require to be clear around six months in advance, autumn
:11:13. > :11:24.next year, to allow for the process of EU ratification. The European
:11:25. > :11:27.Commission has said there will only be 18 months negotiation. That has
:11:28. > :11:30.led to my view that the earliest time at which Scotland can make and
:11:31. > :11:33.in form choice will be the autumn of next year. It is also important that
:11:34. > :11:37.the choices made well it is still possible in a timely manner to
:11:38. > :11:50.choose a different path. Therefore it is also judgment that the latest
:11:51. > :11:53.date for that choice... I am going to make some progress. The latest
:11:54. > :11:56.date for that choice to be made should be around the time that the
:11:57. > :11:59.UK leaves the U -- EU in the spring of 2019. That is the time frame I am
:12:00. > :12:03.asked in Parliament to endorse today. Let me make this clear, is
:12:04. > :12:06.the UK Government disagrees with that time frame, then they should
:12:07. > :12:08.set out a clear alternative and the rationale for it. As I have said in
:12:09. > :12:11.recent days, I am within reason happy to have that discussion to see
:12:12. > :12:14.if we can find common ground that I can then propose to this Parliament.
:12:15. > :12:16.However it will simply not be acceptable for the UK Government to
:12:17. > :12:28.stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will of
:12:29. > :12:31.this Parliament. Let me set out the many reasons why my party will be
:12:32. > :12:40.opposing the motion today. It calls on this Parliament to gain the power
:12:41. > :12:43.to call a referendum between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of
:12:44. > :12:46.2019. The motion also insists it is only this Parliament who should have
:12:47. > :12:52.busy over the franchise and the details of this referendum. This
:12:53. > :12:54.bulldozer approach is completely at odds with the way in which the 2014
:12:55. > :13:05.referendum was held and how different things are today. Because
:13:06. > :13:07.under this First Minister the SNP lost its majority with no clear
:13:08. > :13:18.pledge to hold the referendum. I am sorry but believing something should
:13:19. > :13:25.happen if something else takes place may be many things but it is not a
:13:26. > :13:37.clear mandate. And furthermore the SNP wants to unilaterally decide on
:13:38. > :13:52.the rules and timing of the referendum. And we now know that
:13:53. > :13:57.there is no agreement between the UK and Scottish governments on the
:13:58. > :13:58.prospects of this referendum. I remained the SNP today they once
:13:59. > :14:18.described the last referendum with 92% across the public, as a gold
:14:19. > :14:24.standard approach. And this today, this is not called standard. Is that
:14:25. > :14:24.in brooch approach. The SNP's plans last week were not about holding a
:14:25. > :14:26.fair, legal decisive referendum. What it is really about is very well
:14:27. > :14:26.rehearsed game which is to put forward an unworkable proposal, to
:14:27. > :14:30.whisper Westminster politicians the point that out and then to rush to
:14:31. > :14:36.any microphone with the angry face on and to trot out the same
:14:37. > :14:37.complaints. Once upon a time it might even have worked. But it will
:14:38. > :14:37.not any more because most people in Scotland are sick to death of the
:14:38. > :14:42.games. Most people in Scotland don't want another referendum any time
:14:43. > :14:42.soon. Brexit is just the latest excuse. We have heard a lot from the
:14:43. > :14:43.First Minister about mandates. But people have noticed the shift in the
:14:44. > :14:45.SNP's language. They used to demand the will of the Scottish people be
:14:46. > :14:49.respected but the will of the Scottish people was clearly
:14:50. > :14:55.expressed in 2014. 85% of our fellow citizens floated in the first
:14:56. > :15:05.referendum and they voted by a very clear majority to remain in the
:15:06. > :15:08.United Kingdom. More than 2 million Scots, in the biggest mandate ever
:15:09. > :15:11.given to any political leaders in Scotland's history, voted to remain
:15:12. > :15:18.in the UK. That is the will of the Scottish people and that is what is
:15:19. > :15:21.due to be respected. The people of Scotland do not want another
:15:22. > :15:28.divisive referendum. Last week the First Minister said the 2014
:15:29. > :15:33.referendum was a device. She obviously didn't speak to many
:15:34. > :15:35.people beyond her own party faithful. Because my experience and
:15:36. > :15:40.the experience of the very many Scots who have taken the time to
:15:41. > :15:44.tell me on the doorstep in the street and by e-mail is that this
:15:45. > :15:46.country, their country, felt more divided than it any time in their
:15:47. > :15:48.lives to memory. Families argued, colleagues fell out and communities
:15:49. > :16:06.were split down the middle. And last Monday, the first day of
:16:07. > :16:13.this campaign felt just as hostile and polarised as the 847th and final
:16:14. > :16:16.day of the last. Where does it end? Theresa May promised to develop a
:16:17. > :16:19.shared approach with all the devolved administrations before
:16:20. > :16:26.moving forward with Article 50. We can see how empty that promise was.
:16:27. > :16:32.And finally, on the question of timing, the idea of delaying this
:16:33. > :16:45.after 2019 and we have been given the opportunity to see how our new
:16:46. > :16:48.relationsh with Europe is work is after the negotiation concludes when
:16:49. > :16:54.there is clarity about the arrangements. A deal negotiated by a
:16:55. > :17:00.UK Government Scotland didn't choose with an EU institution on which
:17:01. > :17:06.Scotland is no longer remitted, about -- represented, about Brexit
:17:07. > :17:09.which Scotland didn't vote for and a period of ratification by every
:17:10. > :17:14.other European country, that would leave the future of Scotland in the
:17:15. > :17:20.hands of everybody else in Scotland. The citizens of Scotland the only
:17:21. > :17:26.people voiceless in that process. I don't accept that. I want to create
:17:27. > :17:31.a federal United Kingdom with power shared across the country, with a
:17:32. > :17:36.written constitution, fair votes and an elected second chamber. These are
:17:37. > :17:41.the reforms that are on the way to make our United Kingdom even
:17:42. > :17:46.stronger. The campaign for independence undermines that chance.
:17:47. > :17:51.The Liberal Democrats stated clearly in our manifesto that we would
:17:52. > :17:54.oppose another divisive independence referendum and that is exactly what
:17:55. > :17:58.we will do. Joining me in the studio
:17:59. > :18:07.today is the political What did you make of the debate? I
:18:08. > :18:12.don't think we learned anything new from either side. Most of the
:18:13. > :18:17.arguments were very well rehearsed. There were a couple of stars, a
:18:18. > :18:25.couple of people who were eloquent on either side at stating what they
:18:26. > :18:30.believed in. I think today what will unfold today will build on that and
:18:31. > :18:34.we will still at the end of the day be wondering what you wanted to know
:18:35. > :18:42.in your first question at the top of the programme, what happens next.
:18:43. > :18:47.Brian said he is learning from people he talks to around the
:18:48. > :18:55.Scottish Government that they think even if Theresa May ignores it, at
:18:56. > :18:59.some point she will require consent from the Parliament. Do we have
:19:00. > :19:06.years of a Mexican stand off or what? On one hand this is, as one or
:19:07. > :19:11.two people said, we are in unchartered constitutional
:19:12. > :19:17.territory. However, last week both Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May each
:19:18. > :19:24.gave the other a bit of wriggle room. When Theresa May said, no
:19:25. > :19:28.referendum now, she tint say never. - she didn't say never. And Nicola
:19:29. > :19:34.Sturgeon indicated she may be willing to negotiate and compromise
:19:35. > :19:39.over the outside date for a referendum and that seems to make
:19:40. > :19:43.sense. These are the opening salvos of a struggle which will probably
:19:44. > :19:50.play out over the next two and a half years. Am I being completely
:19:51. > :19:54.cynical if I were to suggest it might suit both of them to have
:19:55. > :20:00.kicked this into the long grass? Yes, because nobody, even those
:20:01. > :20:06.close to Nicola Sturgeon, last year, prior to her announcement last week,
:20:07. > :20:10.nobody believed that Nicola Sturgeon wanted an early referendum. And
:20:11. > :20:15.Theresa May of course doesn't want to be fighting a war on two fronts.
:20:16. > :20:20.What Nicola Sturgeon has in her favour is that her proposed timeline
:20:21. > :20:28.falls within the time line that Theresa May had set for the
:20:29. > :20:34.conclusion of Brexit negotiations. What going an extra six months or so
:20:35. > :20:39.until 2019? I would say there will be unofficial... The only constraint
:20:40. > :20:43.on the the Scottish Government would be they would like a referendum
:20:44. > :20:49.before the next Holyrood election. Because their mandate runs out in
:20:50. > :20:55.2021, the date of next Holyrood election. And it was difficult
:20:56. > :21:02.enough getting an overall majority in 2011 as we saw in 2016 there is
:21:03. > :21:11.no guarantees whatsoever that the SNP would gain or there would even
:21:12. > :21:13.be a yes voting majority in 2021. Don't run away we well be back with
:21:14. > :21:15.you. So today's business at Holyrood
:21:16. > :21:17.is all about a Second Independence Referendum,
:21:18. > :21:19.with the second day of debate on the issue -
:21:20. > :21:28.let's cross to the chamber now An independent Scotland as an EU
:21:29. > :21:35.member would face trading tariffs with the rest of the UK. A market
:21:36. > :21:42.that is worth to Scotland four times what of the EU market. The rationale
:21:43. > :21:47.that we need to be independent to join the EU to protect Scotland's
:21:48. > :21:54.economy from trade tariffs between Europe and the UK and then as a
:21:55. > :21:58.member of the EU single market have these trade tariffs imposed back
:21:59. > :22:06.upon us with the rest of the UK is simply ludicrous. The economics of
:22:07. > :22:15.the argument do not add up. I'm just... Finishing this point. You
:22:16. > :22:20.might well answer your intervention. The significance of the EU market is
:22:21. > :22:28.diminishing in importance to Scotland. Since 2002, Scottish
:22:29. > :22:36.exports to the EU market have only grown by 8%. Compared to trade with
:22:37. > :22:43.the UX single -- UK single market increasing by 74% and to the rest of
:22:44. > :22:51.the world by 85%. Despite all of this, the SNP wants to put the
:22:52. > :22:57.trading relationship with the EU ahead of the internal UK market.
:22:58. > :23:02.This refusal to recognise any benefit derived from being part of
:23:03. > :23:08.UK is a result of an increasingly nasty nationalism. This took a turn
:23:09. > :23:14.for the worse over the weekend, with further seeds of division sown. A
:23:15. > :23:18.senior SNP minister stated that the debate should be propositioned
:23:19. > :23:24.around the theme, Scotland against the Tories. This is dangerous,
:23:25. > :23:30.because it equates the SNP with Scotland. It seeks to define
:23:31. > :23:36.nationhood and nationality in the SNP's image. It says to half a
:23:37. > :23:40.million Scots who voted Conservative at the last election, that you're
:23:41. > :23:50.not Scottish and you don't have a place in SNP Scotland. Well, let me
:23:51. > :24:00.tell the SNP, I'm Scottish and you don't speak for me. Such abject
:24:01. > :24:06.language from the SNP doesn't serve Scotland's interest. I urge the SNP
:24:07. > :24:13.to moderate their tone and do their best to avoid the vile slurs, hatred
:24:14. > :24:18.and bully boy tactics of the last independence campaign. The SNP must
:24:19. > :24:23.put Scotland first, they must respect the democratic decision
:24:24. > :24:35.Scotland took in 2014 and now is not the time for a second independence
:24:36. > :24:41.referendum. Alex Neil. Can I just start on a personal note to thank
:24:42. > :24:46.you, Paul Grice, the staff and my friend for the messages of best
:24:47. > :24:51.messages during my recent illness. You will be glad to know that from
:24:52. > :25:00.the ambulance I was able to tweet that there would be no by-election
:25:01. > :25:04.in Airdrie and Shotts! I have campaigned all my adult life for
:25:05. > :25:11.Scottish independence, so I want to see a second referendum at the right
:25:12. > :25:15.time, in the right circumstances. As with the first referendum, the
:25:16. > :25:21.arrangements including the time of the referendum for the second time
:25:22. > :25:26.must be decided by this Parliament. Now my apologies for dipping out of
:25:27. > :25:32.Alex Neil, because we want go back to David Porter in Wech, there has
:25:33. > :25:37.been -- Westminster there has been a security alert at the House of
:25:38. > :25:42.Commons. Apologies for not being in front of a camera. That area has
:25:43. > :25:51.been cleared by the police. You may hear a lot of sirens. We understand
:25:52. > :25:55.that there has been a shooting near the Portcullis House entrance. We
:25:56. > :26:00.understand there has been a shooting. The whole area around
:26:01. > :26:08.Whitehall and Westminster has been locked down. Within the last few
:26:09. > :26:12.moments the the air ambulance has landed just outside the houses of
:26:13. > :26:19.Parliament. There is a huge amount of police activity. We are all being
:26:20. > :26:23.kept behind a security cordon. There are some reports that the sitting of
:26:24. > :26:28.House of Commons, House of Lords has been suspended. I stress, I can't
:26:29. > :26:34.confirm that, because I'm being held in a security cordon. As you would
:26:35. > :26:39.expect, there is a little bit of confusion to put it mildly at the
:26:40. > :26:47.moment. But a lot of areas around Westminster have been cordoned off.
:26:48. > :26:52.As you probably hear, no shortage of sirens and a lot of police and
:26:53. > :26:58.personnel and ambulances have been coming and going. I can't give you
:26:59. > :27:03.chapter and verse, at the moment we do not know. We are told there has
:27:04. > :27:06.been a shooting outside Portcullis House where many of the MPs have
:27:07. > :27:11.their offices. As you would imagine at the moment, the police are trying
:27:12. > :27:16.to make the area security and contain the area. You say, you don't
:27:17. > :27:20.know whether the proceedings at either of the houses has been
:27:21. > :27:24.suspended. Presumably there would be in place and it would be easy to
:27:25. > :27:30.evacuate Lords and MPs should that be necessary? Yes, I think the first
:27:31. > :27:34.thing they normally do and when we have security incidents before, what
:27:35. > :27:40.tends to happen is they lock the Palace of Westminster down and try
:27:41. > :27:44.and keep people inside. If they're in a confined area that is normally
:27:45. > :27:50.secure, the House of Commons and the House of Lords are guarded by armed
:27:51. > :27:57.police and there are security barriersout side. Out site. What
:27:58. > :28:02.they wouldn't want is people wandering about. The buildings I
:28:03. > :28:09.work at at Millbank, about two or three minutes from the palaces of
:28:10. > :28:12.Westminster, where the BBC have their offices, that has been locked
:28:13. > :28:17.down. There is a great deal of nerve usness I would say from the police
:28:18. > :28:23.here at the moment. I think they're trying to establish what is going
:28:24. > :28:28.on. David, just to interrupt you, we are seeing pictures coming in live
:28:29. > :28:32.from Westminster. You can see that the traffic, there is a row of
:28:33. > :28:36.buses, that has been blocked. They're trying to shut down the
:28:37. > :28:42.whole area by the looks of it? Yes we are about to be moved back. More
:28:43. > :28:46.police vehicles coming, you can hear the sirens probably. In fact that is
:28:47. > :28:51.an ambulance which is coming now. What the police have wanted to do is
:28:52. > :28:57.move people around and make sure that the area that they are in is
:28:58. > :29:04.secure and that they can be confident that there is going to be
:29:05. > :29:08.no further incidents. Obviously, the initial few minutes perhaps half an
:29:09. > :29:12.hour is often to put it mildly quite confused. People are abiding by what
:29:13. > :29:18.the police are asking them to do. But make no mistake, the police are
:29:19. > :29:21.taking this extremely seriously. David, thank you. We may just join
:29:22. > :29:40.later. This is alarming. Just judging from
:29:41. > :29:45.the pictures there, you can see this as being treated very seriously.
:29:46. > :30:02.Yes, it is a free BREL time we're living through. People are still
:30:03. > :30:08.aware of what happened to Jo Cox last year. There was a female SNP MP
:30:09. > :30:18.who had been receiving death threats.
:30:19. > :30:30.And as a result of that bill of ?634,000 has been spent on security.
:30:31. > :30:33.But as we see it, all that is required, how easy it can happen. If
:30:34. > :30:42.there is sufficient determination. Portcullis House which is not the
:30:43. > :30:53.Houses of Parliament. It is a relatively new building. If it was
:30:54. > :30:58.there, portcullis House is just to the left of the main entrance. That
:30:59. > :31:09.is where a lot of the MPs have their offices. And the thing about London,
:31:10. > :31:16.is specially that part of London, where people want to scrutinise and
:31:17. > :31:18.to see the conduct and unfolding of democracy, you don't want to have
:31:19. > :31:21.stifling security that will actually undermine that. So there will always
:31:22. > :31:24.be opportunities. Kevin, thank you for that. We will come back to you
:31:25. > :31:26.Time now for our regular catch up with MSPs.
:31:27. > :31:28.Today, we're joined by Ivan McKee from the SNP.
:31:29. > :31:30.From the Scottish Conservatives it's Miles Briggs.
:31:31. > :31:32.Alison Johnstone from the Scottish Greens.
:31:33. > :31:34.And for the Scottish Lib Dems it's Liam McArthur.
:31:35. > :31:47.all of you, I am sure you would all be concerned at the news we are
:31:48. > :31:50.getting in from London at the moment that there has been some sort of
:31:51. > :31:52.shooting. I am not going to ask you about that because we are all in the
:31:53. > :32:00.dark until more information comes round. Let's go back to the debate
:32:01. > :32:02.in the Scottish Parliament today. First, Ivan McKee, what is your
:32:03. > :32:06.interpretation of what the British government is saying about as
:32:07. > :32:12.accurate referendum? Is it that they sing you can have one but not just
:32:13. > :32:14.right now or do you think they are manoeuvring to try and rule it out
:32:15. > :32:23.entirely? I assume they are using the words carefully and then now is
:32:24. > :32:25.not the time would mean that some time. I think if if you look at the
:32:26. > :32:34.Conservative amendment to the debate were heaved Ashraf in gold of the
:32:35. > :32:40.two days, as a government we are saying it should be sometime between
:32:41. > :32:43.the negotiation is complete in the autumn of 2018 and the date of exit
:32:44. > :32:46.from the EU which is March 20 19. And if I interpret it right, what
:32:47. > :32:52.the Conservatives are saying yes there will be a referendum but it
:32:53. > :32:57.will be after April 20 19. I expect we will move forward in the next
:32:58. > :33:03.weeks and months around the date of the referendum and timing. But the
:33:04. > :33:08.way I am reading it is that they have conceded that there will be a
:33:09. > :33:15.second referendum. Is that right Miles Briggs? We are going through
:33:16. > :33:20.one of the most difficult times in Scottish politics in British
:33:21. > :33:24.politics. Most people will think the Prime Minister is right thing this
:33:25. > :33:28.is not the time. Is the Conservative position that there can be a second
:33:29. > :33:41.referendum, just not before either Brexit or a period of time after
:33:42. > :33:43.Brexit. I know you don't what one, but have the Conservatives change
:33:44. > :33:46.their position to say we will stop you having one? No, I position has
:33:47. > :33:48.been the same since the outside. We will listen to the people of
:33:49. > :33:54.Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon said that as well. This week the public
:33:55. > :33:58.opinion seems to be moving towards us not having a referendum and
:33:59. > :34:04.people are saying quite clearly they want to move country forward, not to
:34:05. > :34:10.go back to the division of the past. But that is a key message, that
:34:11. > :34:16.people in Scotland need to decide this. Not Ivan or the First
:34:17. > :34:21.Minister. You, like the Conservatives, say that if there can
:34:22. > :34:29.be another one, what is the problem? We are opposed to independence. It
:34:30. > :34:31.was only two and a half years ago we had the independence referendum. We
:34:32. > :34:34.have been through these arguments whether there should be one
:34:35. > :34:39.endlessly. What is your take on the refusal of the British government to
:34:40. > :34:45.allow the Scottish Parliament, should it bought this afternoon for
:34:46. > :34:48.one, to have one. Is it your position that the British government
:34:49. > :34:55.should not stop it or Theresa May should hold for a of years? The
:34:56. > :35:03.Scottish people voted to have years ago not to have independence. Are
:35:04. > :35:09.you saying you support the British government saying, no you cannot
:35:10. > :35:14.have one. We believe there should not be one before Brexit is agreed.
:35:15. > :35:19.You would agree that should the Scottish parliament vote for one,
:35:20. > :35:21.there should be won at some point, perhaps not now? If there was to be
:35:22. > :35:30.a second referendum is independent there would have to be clear support
:35:31. > :35:32.from the people of Scotland. Also the SNP would need to set out a
:35:33. > :35:41.clear plan and a clear prospectus. They are all over the place on
:35:42. > :35:47.currency and Europe. Alston Johnston, why are you voting against
:35:48. > :35:49.a referendum now given that you said in your manifesto that there
:35:50. > :35:58.shouldn't be one unless there was clearly expressed will to have one?
:35:59. > :36:04.Our manifesto clearly that in a second independence referendum, the
:36:05. > :36:10.Greens would campaign for one. Can I read you, there is an interview with
:36:11. > :36:12.Patrick Harvie in April last year in which he said there should be
:36:13. > :36:25.another... He said that Brexit should not be used as an excuse to
:36:26. > :36:31.have another referendum. This is before Miles said it is very
:36:32. > :36:34.challenging political times. This is a decision that the Scottish people
:36:35. > :36:42.should have a voice in. The way that Miles Briggs would have it would be
:36:43. > :36:48.that it would be up to Theresa May. Hang on. You are not addressing the
:36:49. > :36:51.issue. The entire basis of the SNP calling for another referendum is
:36:52. > :36:55.that they had a commitment in their manifesto that should there be
:36:56. > :36:57.Brexit voted for in Britain but not in Scotland that would give them a
:36:58. > :37:05.reason for another referendum. Your manifesto which you put the people
:37:06. > :37:07.of Scotland last year makes no mention of such a thing. It says
:37:08. > :37:11.there should not be another referendum unless a majority of
:37:12. > :37:15.those in Scotland want one. It clearly does not say there shouldn't
:37:16. > :37:21.be another referendum. It states that in the event of a second end
:37:22. > :37:22.dependence referendum the Greens will campaign for independence. No
:37:23. > :37:55.one would... Miles Briggs Alison make the point. You are
:37:56. > :38:17.avoiding this. I am most certainly not avoiding it.
:38:18. > :38:33.whole vote if you don't. It would be responsible for us to setback let
:38:34. > :38:58.the Conservative Before we forget you, you have got
:38:59. > :39:00.the unique position in this. You were saying FI understand Willie
:39:01. > :39:02.Rennie, there should be no referendum. The British government
:39:03. > :39:04.is right to tell the Scottish Parliament no way. There has been
:39:05. > :39:24.much talk about manifestos. If I can paraphrase hours from last
:39:25. > :39:26.May. We would not support a second independence referendum through the
:39:27. > :39:28.cause of this parliament that remains our position. Like others
:39:29. > :39:30.have said, there is no demonstrable overwhelming public support for a
:39:31. > :39:33.second independence referendum. I don't think anyone is anxious to
:39:34. > :39:35.reopen some of the divisions we saw open up in 2014. That is a view
:39:36. > :39:38.shared not just amongst those who voted the last time but some who
:39:39. > :39:40.voted yes. Miles Briggs says the Conservatives are not invincible
:39:41. > :39:42.against another referendum. In a sense they recognise the mandate
:39:43. > :39:45.that was in the SNP manifesto although it should not be now. But
:39:46. > :39:47.you don't seem to recognise that the SNP has any mandate. You see the
:39:48. > :39:50.British government should stop them. I stood by the manifesto commitment
:39:51. > :39:52.and I have every intention of honouring later on. You have posed
:39:53. > :39:54.them yourself to Alison. The Greens position going into that election
:39:55. > :40:00.was very clear. There was a purchaser but democracy that seems
:40:01. > :40:03.to have been redefined in a few meetings on Wednesday. And now they
:40:04. > :40:09.see fit to back this, to give the SNP the mandate that they will claim
:40:10. > :40:11.to be the Parliament -- and you will. Let's face that they have
:40:12. > :40:14.ignored routinely ever since they lost the majority after the last
:40:15. > :40:17.election. I will cut you off there. I would have liked to have gone on
:40:18. > :40:20.but we want to get an update on this very rapidly situation in London.
:40:21. > :40:27.Please accept my apologies and join us again next week if you will.
:40:28. > :40:29.Thank you for that. Let's go back to Westminster where there are reports
:40:30. > :40:40.of shooting near the Houses of Parliament. Parliament is in
:40:41. > :40:52.lockdown. Our correspondent David Porter is on the line. Give us
:40:53. > :40:59.what you have found out since the last time we spoke. It is still a
:41:00. > :41:02.very fluid and developing situation. If I shout it is because it is
:41:03. > :41:05.difficult to hear what is going on. It is becoming clear there has been
:41:06. > :41:06.a very serious security incident. There are pierced when a shooting
:41:07. > :41:21.outside one of the entrances to portcullis House
:41:22. > :41:39.which is where a lot of the MPs have their offices. There are unconfirmed
:41:40. > :41:42.reports on social media that there was some kind of incident on
:41:43. > :41:44.Westminster Bridge which crosses the river just by the Houses of
:41:45. > :42:07.Parliament when it appears that there were vehicle
:42:08. > :42:10.may have tried to mow some pedestrians down. I was looking at
:42:11. > :42:13.Westminster Bridge at the moment. There are a huge number of emergency
:42:14. > :42:16.services vehicles, all the traffic has been stopped that I can see,
:42:17. > :42:18.probably half a dozen to a dozen London buses on that bridge at the
:42:19. > :42:20.moment. Amongst the police and security personnel here, there is a
:42:21. > :42:23.good deal of nervousness. What they're trying to do is create a
:42:24. > :42:35.large accordance around the Palace of Westminster at the moment.
:42:36. > :42:39.MPs and their staff have been told that they should stay in their
:42:40. > :42:45.offices and await further instruction. What the police appear
:42:46. > :43:10.to be doing is trying to make a bigger
:43:11. > :43:14.security cord and all the time. Initially it was around the Houses
:43:15. > :43:16.of Parliament. It is now being extended. Traffic has been stop from
:43:17. > :43:18.all the area around the Houses of Parliament. There are police
:43:19. > :43:20.helicopters, the buses are being re-routed. It is becoming evident
:43:21. > :43:23.that this has been and is being treated as a very serious security
:43:24. > :43:32.incident. In which it does appear that at least one person has been
:43:33. > :43:35.injured. As I say, it is an ongoing situation. There is, as you always
:43:36. > :43:37.get in these situations in the initial aftermath, some amount of
:43:38. > :43:40.confusion about what the police want to do at the moment. They want to
:43:41. > :43:43.make sure that they can secure an area. But it would be wrong in any
:43:44. > :43:45.way to underestimate the seriousness of what has happened this afternoon.
:43:46. > :43:53.We are seeing some live pictures there. Exactly what you are saying.
:43:54. > :43:55.The police appear to be... We are looking down on her Whitehall. The
:43:56. > :43:58.police are trying to block of Whitehall and perhaps, perhaps as I
:43:59. > :44:05.can see, extend the line behind that of it so that goes... That is what
:44:06. > :44:20.they are doing. I am standing on a road that runs
:44:21. > :44:22.opposite Whitehall. You have got Parliament Square, for those who do
:44:23. > :44:32.not know the Palace of Westminster, you have Whitehall going up one side
:44:33. > :44:42.of the river. What they appear to be doing all the time is trying to push
:44:43. > :44:45.the cord and back. Whitehall is where the UK Government offices are.
:44:46. > :44:51.It is where Downing Street is. They will want to ensure that they can
:44:52. > :45:01.guarantee the safety of ministers and their staff and
:45:02. > :45:03.Let's go back to chamber at Holyrood, where the debate
:45:04. > :45:06.on a second Independence Referendum is still going on -
:45:07. > :45:18.Here I was what I said, Emily had just woke up, her first two words
:45:19. > :45:22.were mum,y independence? No darling. Is it not was her reply. I didn't
:45:23. > :45:28.realise that was a matter for laughing, but I think the people of
:45:29. > :45:34.Scotland will judge you on that. Just found out oldest daughter
:45:35. > :45:39.joined the SNP, paid ?2, well done Glasgow and you all worked hard, I
:45:40. > :45:46.have never seen it look like that before. My sister went on even when
:45:47. > :45:50.mum voted and she is very frail, I was proud of her, we are proud in
:45:51. > :45:57.this household. My mum has since passed away and I was proud of what
:45:58. > :46:03.my mum did. It made me cry tears of pride, not tears of despair. My
:46:04. > :46:08.nieces, my frail mum has passed away. They were not driven by
:46:09. > :46:13.conflict and division. They wanted a better future for their family, for
:46:14. > :46:22.their community and their country. So how dare Iain Gray talk about
:46:23. > :46:26.sewing the seeds of division or talk about nasty nationalism. The
:46:27. > :46:31.majority of people on both sides not divide, just want the best for their
:46:32. > :46:40.country. Some will never shift their views. You must close. Let me finish
:46:41. > :46:46.say by saying I want an independent Scotland. Let the people decide. Not
:46:47. > :46:51.block the people like the Labour Party and the Conservatives. Please
:46:52. > :46:55.sit down. I notice the last two speakers have gone well over. Can I
:46:56. > :47:00.ask people to stick to six minutes and may I request those in the
:47:01. > :47:07.public gallery to refrain from clapping or otherwise in relation to
:47:08. > :47:13.any of the speeches. Thank you. Thank you. I rise to offer my
:47:14. > :47:17.support to the Liberal Democrat amendment and to keep a promise made
:47:18. > :47:22.to the residents of West Edinburgh who sent me here. This debate is
:47:23. > :47:27.about another referendum, but it serves as a proxy for the discussion
:47:28. > :47:32.about our continuing place in the United Kingdom. These islands run
:47:33. > :47:37.through me from the London Newtown of my birth to the hill tops of
:47:38. > :47:42.Wales where we scattered my grandfather. No such courtesy was
:47:43. > :47:47.afforded to me yesterday. So I won't take an intervention. I have no
:47:48. > :47:53.time. In my children born in Edinburgh, to a Scottish mother and
:47:54. > :48:00.to the distant member memories of my family origins in Enniskillen. I
:48:01. > :48:06.could not act to see the dissolution of their unity any more than they
:48:07. > :48:11.colleague could act on EU withdrawal. I see no inconsistency
:48:12. > :48:17.in that position. There has been talk of mandate, well, I have my man
:48:18. > :48:19.Tait date -- mandate, I stood to oppose a referendum in these
:48:20. > :48:25.circumstances. I have my instructions. I have said which will
:48:26. > :48:30.not take an intervention. We live in a time of political chaos and the
:48:31. > :48:35.wheel has turned in ways we never thought poss yin and we -- possible.
:48:36. > :48:45.At times like this I can only hold on o' what I feel in my heart. Well
:48:46. > :48:49.let's to something else Prime Minister's question took place well
:48:50. > :48:55.in advance of the situation at Westminster at the moment, where
:48:56. > :49:00.there is a security alert at the houses of Parliament. But Theresa
:49:01. > :49:06.May and Jeremy Corbyn clashed on the issue of funding for schools in
:49:07. > :49:11.England. Jeremy Corbyn said the UK government was cutting the schools
:49:12. > :49:17.budget and spending millions on building grammar schools. Mr
:49:18. > :49:26.Speaker, this government is cutting the schools budget by 6.5% by 2020.
:49:27. > :49:31.Today we learn the national funding formula will leave a thousand
:49:32. > :49:36.schools across England facing additional cuts of a further 7
:49:37. > :49:41.Petrescu. %. Can the Prime Minister explain why cutting capital gains
:49:42. > :49:48.tax, culting inheritance tax, cutting corporation tax, culting
:49:49. > :49:54.bank levy, are all more important than our children's future? This
:49:55. > :49:59.Government is committed to ensuring that all our children get the
:50:00. > :50:04.education that is right for them what is what the Government's plans
:50:05. > :50:10.for education will provide. And that is building on a fine record of the
:50:11. > :50:13.past six and a half nearly seven years for Conservatives in
:50:14. > :50:17.Government when we have seen 1.8 million more children in good or
:50:18. > :50:23.outstanding schools. We have protected the schools budget and the
:50:24. > :50:27.national funding formula is a consultation and there will be a
:50:28. > :50:33.number of views. The consultation closes today and the department will
:50:34. > :50:36.respond in due course. Mr Speaker, viewers will note that the Prime
:50:37. > :50:40.Minister glossed over the fact she has reach nod agreement with the
:50:41. > :50:45.devolved governments of United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, the Prime
:50:46. > :50:50.Minister says that she wants Article 50 negotiations to lead to a deal.
:50:51. > :50:57.And she wants people to know the outcome of the deal before it
:50:58. > :51:00.approved. Will the Prime Minister confirm in the period for an
:51:01. > :51:05.agreement the House of Commons will have a choice, the House of Lords
:51:06. > :51:10.will have a choice, the European Parliament will have a choice. 27
:51:11. > :51:16.member states of the European Union will have a choice. Mr Speaker, fit
:51:17. > :51:20.is right for all of them to have a choice about Scotland's future, why
:51:21. > :51:28.should the people of Scotland not have a choice about their future?
:51:29. > :51:33.This isn't a question about whether the people of Scotland should have a
:51:34. > :51:44.choice on their future. The people... The people of people the
:51:45. > :51:47.people... The people of Scotland voted, took, exercised their right
:51:48. > :51:54.to self-determination and voted in 2014 to remain a part of the United
:51:55. > :52:02.Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom last year voted to leave the
:52:03. > :52:08.European Union. We are respecting both of those votes. He is
:52:09. > :52:15.respecting neither of them. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and
:52:16. > :52:22.Northern Ireland will be 95 years old. Scottish growth is a third of
:52:23. > :52:25.Iceland and Ireland. Given the Prime Minister's supports Irish
:52:26. > :52:31.independence and the benefits it has brought. Why does she oppose it for
:52:32. > :52:38.Scotland. Will she show Scotland the respect the EU showed the UK in
:52:39. > :52:43.respect to a referendum? I have to say to the honourable gentleman if
:52:44. > :52:48.he is looking at issues around economic growth and quoted figures
:52:49. > :52:51.she should pay attention to the most important market for Scotland, the
:52:52. > :52:55.most important market is the market of the United Kingdom and that is
:52:56. > :53:03.why Scotland should remain part of it. Kevin, we will should say to
:53:04. > :53:07.people we will try to bring you more news on the situation in London.
:53:08. > :53:12.Again, there is no point in us speculating when we don't know
:53:13. > :53:20.what's going on. But this looks like a serious situation? Yes, first, you
:53:21. > :53:24.want to, you will be thinking about the members of public who are there,
:53:25. > :53:28.the politicians and all the people who work and we hope for their
:53:29. > :53:33.safety and well being, but at the end of the day it is clearly a
:53:34. > :53:40.serious situation. A couple of clues to that were when our correspondent
:53:41. > :53:44.was talking about an ongoing situation. We know there appear to
:53:45. > :53:51.be three possibility of two incidents. We have heard reports of
:53:52. > :53:55.a shooting and possibly an attempt to mown people down, which would
:53:56. > :54:00.give the police reason to believe it may still be happening. We don't
:54:01. > :54:05.want to speculate. Specially from where we are. But because of what
:54:06. > :54:11.has been happening in France and Germany, the police cannot be too
:54:12. > :54:17.careful. And they will be expecting this could be a long unfolding
:54:18. > :54:22.situation. I think we have David Porter on the line again. Can you
:54:23. > :54:29.hear me? Yes I can. Give us the latest. The latest as we understand
:54:30. > :54:34.it is and it is worth saying as the onset that this is still an ongoing
:54:35. > :54:37.situation, but it appears to be a serious situation. It appears from
:54:38. > :54:42.the sequence of events as we can piece them together that a car ran
:54:43. > :54:46.into some pedestrians on Westminster Bridge just next to the houses of
:54:47. > :54:51.Parliament. There are reports that between four and 12 people may have
:54:52. > :54:55.been injured in that incident. It is also being reported as well that
:54:56. > :55:00.someone was stabbed and separately there was a shooting incident
:55:01. > :55:04.outside one of the entrances of Portcullis House. All this probably
:55:05. > :55:10.happened now about an hour and a half ago. There is still a major
:55:11. > :55:15.police operation ongoing. I'm standing on Lambeth Bridge, because
:55:16. > :55:17.we have been pushed back with the security cordon, looking to
:55:18. > :55:21.Westminster Bridge and it is base economy a situation where you can
:55:22. > :55:25.see -- basically a situation where you can see ambulances and emergency
:55:26. > :55:28.services vehicles on the bridge, together with the traffic, the
:55:29. > :55:33.normal London buses which have been stopped. And as we speak, you are
:55:34. > :55:40.finding that the police are trying to increase the size of this cordon
:55:41. > :55:48.that they have at the moment. Progressively moving us back. To put
:55:49. > :55:52.it mildly, there is a degree of nervousness as well as utter
:55:53. > :55:57.professionalism from the police. They're dealing with it as a major
:55:58. > :56:03.incident. They're taking no chances and they have realised something
:56:04. > :56:08.serious has happened. As I say, we are hearing that before, between
:56:09. > :56:11.four and 12 people were injured in that initial incident on Westminster
:56:12. > :56:16.Bridge. It then appears as though there was a stabbing and separately
:56:17. > :56:20.a shooting incident. As we understand it, MPs and their staff
:56:21. > :56:27.have been told to stay in their offices at the houses of Parliament.
:56:28. > :56:31.That is a precaution, because it is better to have people in a secure
:56:32. > :56:37.environment where it is going to be easier to ensure that they are safe.
:56:38. > :56:43.I should tell you we have got reports that... Apparently the
:56:44. > :56:49.leader of Commons told MPs a police officer has been stabbed and the
:56:50. > :56:59.alleged assailant was shot by armed police and the other thing we have
:57:00. > :57:03.had in according to press association, the Prime Minister was
:57:04. > :57:07.seen being ushered into a car as gun fire rang out. That was presumably
:57:08. > :57:14.some time ago. Is everybody out of the area now? We don't know, the
:57:15. > :57:17.houses of commons have been shut down. It would be normal for the
:57:18. > :57:20.Prime Minister to be removed from the scene as quickly as possible.
:57:21. > :57:26.Remember, she was in the House of Commons today for Prime Minister's
:57:27. > :57:30.questions, quite often Prime Ministers after the questions spend
:57:31. > :57:34.time talking to their backbench MPs or holding meetings. So it is not
:57:35. > :57:38.surprising that when this incident happened that she would still have
:57:39. > :57:42.been in the House of Commons. Frankly, her security detail, their
:57:43. > :57:48.first priority would have been to get her away from the scene of the
:57:49. > :57:52.incident as soon as possible. Although Downing Street is only
:57:53. > :57:59.about a quarter of a mile from the houses of Parliament, what they
:58:00. > :58:02.would have wanted to do is get her into a secure environment to
:58:03. > :58:09.guarantee her safety and the safety of other MPs and ministers as well.
:58:10. > :58:14.To go over this again, because you alluded to this, that it looks as if
:58:15. > :58:17.there may have been at least two and possibly more incidents. That
:58:18. > :58:23.presumably is what is making the security forces think this could be
:58:24. > :58:27.very serious and ongoing? Yes, I think it is does appear. There
:58:28. > :58:31.appears to have been an initial incident on Westminster Bridge
:58:32. > :58:36.where, a car collided with some pedestrians and then it appears that
:58:37. > :58:41.though somebody may have got out of that vehicle and tried in some way
:58:42. > :58:45.to breach the security of Portcullis House. That may indicate why we have
:58:46. > :58:51.a situation where a policeman was stabbed. Thank you. We will have to
:58:52. > :58:56.leave it there. That is all for now. I'm back with Sunday Politics on
:58:57. > :59:02.Sunday. First Minister's questions is tomorrow. Until then, goodbye.