:00:14. > :00:17.Hello, and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the
:00:17. > :00:21.programme this afternoon. We'll be live in the chamber for an
:00:21. > :00:23.emergency statement on pension provision. The Finance Secretary is
:00:23. > :00:30.attacking Westminster changes which could result in a summer of
:00:30. > :00:33.discontent in Scotland. Celtic and Rangers head for
:00:33. > :00:42.Holyrood as it is their turn to give evidence on the new anti-
:00:42. > :00:47.sectarian legislation. I notice the efforts being made to
:00:47. > :00:51.shout me down. That traditionally happens in Scotland than people
:00:51. > :00:55.challenge the nationalists. Those of us who want to challenge the
:00:55. > :00:59.neo-fascism of the nationalists must be prepared to have
:00:59. > :01:04.discussions. Here at Westminster we will have
:01:04. > :01:11.reaction to those comments plus the first Scottish questions since the
:01:11. > :01:15.Holyrood elections, last month. The The Prime Minister said today that
:01:15. > :01:18.you cannot stick your head in the sand when it comes to public sector
:01:18. > :01:21.pension reform. Major changes are in the pipeline to make public
:01:21. > :01:23.servants pay more and work longer for what they have described as
:01:23. > :01:27."worse pensions". The Finance Secretary John Swinney is due to
:01:27. > :01:29.make a statement on that in the next few minutes. I'm now joined by
:01:29. > :01:38.Iain Tasker from the STUC and our commentator for this afternoon,
:01:38. > :01:45.Lorraine Davidson from The Times. Good afternoon. First of all, to
:01:45. > :01:49.you, Ian. These changes are necessary, aren't they? You have to
:01:49. > :01:54.make the savings? I do not believe the changes and the way they are
:01:54. > :01:58.being imposed on public sector workers are necessary. If we look
:01:58. > :02:02.at the last time there was reforms in all public sector pension
:02:02. > :02:08.schemes into 1007, there were significant changes to ensure
:02:08. > :02:11.sustainability. -- 2007. They were properly negotiated between trade
:02:11. > :02:18.unions and the Government, as employers. That has not happened on
:02:18. > :02:21.this occasion. In relation to the local government schemes, this is
:02:21. > :02:28.just a cash grab on public sector workers.
:02:28. > :02:32.Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, says that you are walking into the
:02:33. > :02:36.Chancellor's trap? We are taking the views of our affiliated trade
:02:36. > :02:43.unions who have taken the views of their members. There is a growing
:02:43. > :02:49.strength of feeling, in relation to a 3.2% contribution increase being
:02:49. > :02:55.deposed, that this is the final straw. They have had pay freezes, a
:02:55. > :02:59.higher cost of living, and really they will have to consider that
:02:59. > :03:04.public sector workers are being pushed and will not be able to
:03:04. > :03:09.afford to stay in pension schemes. This seems to be a reserve issue,
:03:09. > :03:14.what are the politics behind John Swinney's statement this afternoon?
:03:14. > :03:17.John Swinney is already imposing a pay freeze on public sector workers
:03:17. > :03:21.in Scotland. I think people realise they may have to play a part in top
:03:21. > :03:27.economic times. If they accept a pay freeze, they will not accept
:03:27. > :03:31.another raid on their take home pay. There comes a point where if you
:03:32. > :03:36.are talking about people on wages up to 18 grand a year, you are at
:03:36. > :03:41.the point where even if they do accept it, they physically cannot
:03:41. > :03:45.make the money go far enough. They cannot feed their children and
:03:45. > :03:50.babies contributions. It is a different story North and South of
:03:50. > :03:54.the border. In the South, the UK government instinctively wants a
:03:54. > :03:58.small estate, smaller public sector, and is trying to build up a
:03:58. > :04:02.narrative of people with gold- plated pensions. That does not
:04:02. > :04:07.carry in Scotland. You have got traditionally a bigger public
:04:07. > :04:13.sector, people who are not earning big sums of money in the public
:04:13. > :04:18.sector but are roaming around the average wage or less. -- are
:04:18. > :04:22.earning. They have pensions around �6,000 per year. If you are a
:04:22. > :04:27.refuse collector, that is what you are looking at. Should you have to
:04:27. > :04:33.have your pay frozen and take home even less of it, effectively take a
:04:33. > :04:38.pay cut, because you have to dip into your pension payments more? It
:04:38. > :04:41.is a better argument for the SNP to be having with Westminster than a
:04:41. > :04:45.pinhead dancing over the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court,
:04:45. > :04:49.which affects no one. This argument effects over half-a-million in
:04:49. > :04:52.Scotland. Thank you. We will now go across to
:04:52. > :04:58.the chamber for John Swinney's statement, live.
:04:58. > :05:05.Thank you. John Swinney is on his speech so without further ado,
:05:05. > :05:09.workers to deliver devolved services and their dependants.
:05:09. > :05:13.Although we are discussing pension arrangements for staff delivering
:05:13. > :05:16.devolved services, many of the issues are reserved to the UK
:05:16. > :05:23.government. The stance of the UK government has been said that
:05:23. > :05:27.previously. It was reinforced in a speech last Friday. The purpose of
:05:27. > :05:31.this statement is to set out to Parliament the view of the Scottish
:05:31. > :05:37.Government on the UK's proposals, given the will have an impact on
:05:37. > :05:39.many staff delivering devolved services in Scotland. This
:05:40. > :05:44.administration does not have responsibility for decisions in
:05:44. > :05:47.this respect. It is a long-term issue affecting the well-being and
:05:47. > :05:52.livelihoods of social workers, nurses, firefighters, teachers and
:05:52. > :05:56.others. Around half-a-million people. These individuals were cut
:05:56. > :06:00.deliver health, education and other services, on which fellow citizens
:06:00. > :06:03.depend. It is right, therefore, the Scottish Parliament should hear a
:06:03. > :06:06.statement on the matter. This government has not believe the
:06:06. > :06:10.proposals of the UK government represents the correct course to
:06:10. > :06:14.address the issue of public pensions at this time. We believe
:06:14. > :06:18.the UK Government must reconsider the proposals, before seeking to
:06:18. > :06:22.impose very significant changes on public service staff at this time,
:06:22. > :06:27.and in the man and at the pace signalled by the Chief Secretary.
:06:27. > :06:30.Last October, the government decided without consulting devolved
:06:30. > :06:35.administrations, to adopt a policy of increasing employee
:06:35. > :06:39.contributions to pensions, by an average of 3.2% a pay by 20th April
:06:39. > :06:46.14. The increase contributions would be staged over a three-year
:06:46. > :06:49.period, commencing in 2012. This, alongside the �1 billion worth of
:06:49. > :06:54.savings planned by the previous government by CAP and share schemes
:06:54. > :07:04.poor pension contributions, is expected to deliver annual savings
:07:04. > :07:07.of �2.8 billion from 2014 onwards. It is also expected to deliver a
:07:07. > :07:11.further �900 million per year from the funded local-government scheme.
:07:11. > :07:14.The UK government ask the devolved administrations do agree this
:07:14. > :07:18.approach in principle by January of this year, to enable detailed
:07:19. > :07:22.preparations to take their course. We made clear that he would require
:07:22. > :07:26.to undertake dialogue with the other parties in parliament, and
:07:26. > :07:30.with stakeholders, before giving any agreement to a proposal was
:07:30. > :07:33.such long-term implications. In the intervening period, the UK
:07:33. > :07:36.Government opened up negotiations with the TUC and other relevant
:07:36. > :07:40.unions. It was therefore something of a surprise that the UK
:07:40. > :07:44.government position was reinforced by the Chief Secretary last Friday,
:07:44. > :07:47.before these discussions, aimed at finding a solution, had concluded.
:07:48. > :07:51.It is important to consider the financial impact of the UK
:07:51. > :07:55.Government's proposals on individuals will be affected. We
:07:55. > :07:59.are concerned about the burden his policy will place on lower-paid
:07:59. > :08:02.workers, particularly on doing the benefits we are achieving through
:08:02. > :08:06.encouraging a move to be Scottish living wage across the public
:08:06. > :08:09.sector. The real danger of be floored approach to employee
:08:09. > :08:13.contributions may be to motivate opting out of pension schemes which
:08:13. > :08:17.would be bad for individuals and society. Although the UK government
:08:17. > :08:22.has indicated that we will roll-out a contribution increase for those
:08:22. > :08:28.earning 15 grand or more, it has signalled an increase of up to 1.5%
:08:28. > :08:31.a pay for those earning between 15 and �18,000. This comes on top of
:08:31. > :08:35.other changes the UK government has decided to make to pensions using
:08:35. > :08:39.their reserved powers. This includes indexing public sector
:08:39. > :08:45.pensions to the price index, not the retail price index. This will
:08:45. > :08:49.reduce the value of public sector pensions by around 15%. At a time
:08:49. > :08:52.of a public sector pay freeze, rising inflation, increases in
:08:52. > :08:56.national insurance contributions, higher VAT and significant rises in
:08:56. > :09:00.fuel prices, and at a time when consumer confidence is low and we
:09:00. > :09:04.need to kick-start economy, we believe it is wrong to require
:09:04. > :09:08.employees to increase their pension contributions at this time. We
:09:08. > :09:12.think it is a short-term policy, primarily geared towards deficit
:09:12. > :09:14.reduction, but will have significant negative implications
:09:14. > :09:18.towards the long-term retirement provision of some of the lowest
:09:18. > :09:21.paid individuals in our society. The debate on public sector
:09:21. > :09:26.pensions is a long-term debate which must be founded in careful
:09:26. > :09:29.analysis. We believe that public sector pensions must be affordable,
:09:29. > :09:34.sustainable and fair. Lord Hutton's Independent review of public sector
:09:34. > :09:43.pensions looked carefully at the case for reform. In his conclusions
:09:43. > :09:47.he said that despite recent reforms, further reform is needed to
:09:47. > :09:52.recognise increasing longevity and associated costs. He also said
:09:52. > :09:57.public sector pensions are far from gold-plated. In Scotland, average
:09:57. > :10:02.annual pensions for civil servants around �4,000, or �80 per week. For
:10:02. > :10:07.local government workers, it is about �90 per week. The average Far
:10:07. > :10:11.NHS workers including GPs and hospital consultants stands at
:10:11. > :10:17.around �7,000 per year. Lord Hutton's final report made a number
:10:17. > :10:20.of further detailed recommendations about costs and governments. We
:10:20. > :10:30.recognise that the case has been made for further reform. This issue
:10:30. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:36.is what you need to Scotland. We will not. We will do so in full
:10:36. > :10:39.consultation with those affected, public sector staff and
:10:39. > :10:42.representatives. We must do it well taking into account the real and
:10:42. > :10:47.immediate financial pressures faced by members of the public at this
:10:47. > :10:50.time. In setting up the Government's position on pension
:10:50. > :10:54.reform, I also need to be clear to Parliament about the constraints on
:10:54. > :10:57.our ability to develop and apply own solutions in Scotland. The
:10:57. > :11:02.Civil Service pensions scheme is entirely reserved and we have no
:11:02. > :11:06.control over its provisions. In terms of legislation changes to the
:11:06. > :11:10.NHS pension schemes, these require the active support of Her Majesty's
:11:10. > :11:13.Treasury. Without the UK Government's agreement, we cannot
:11:13. > :11:16.change pension rules for the key staff in Scotland to were
:11:16. > :11:21.delivering the services for which we are rightly held to account.
:11:21. > :11:24.Regulations about local government pension schemes, be funded scheme,
:11:24. > :11:29.and police and firefighters schemes which a pay as you go, are within
:11:29. > :11:32.our control. In the past however, details of the police and
:11:32. > :11:37.firefighters schemes have been agreed on a UK-wide basis. In terms
:11:37. > :11:41.of funding, her Majesty's Treasury have made it clear that if we do
:11:41. > :11:45.not introduce increases to employee contribution rates, as specified by
:11:45. > :11:51.them, they will reduce Scotland's block grant by a corresponding
:11:51. > :11:55.amount in respect of pension scheme costs, met by the Treasury, from
:11:55. > :12:05.annually Managed Expenditure budgets. Bobby mechanisms very, the
:12:05. > :12:08.
:12:08. > :12:15.consequences would be the same, or all schemes we have responsibility
:12:15. > :12:20.for. -- while the mechanisms very. By 2014, the teachers and NHS
:12:20. > :12:25.pension schemes in Scotland are projected to be generating an
:12:25. > :12:29.additional �230 million per year in extra employee contributions, if
:12:29. > :12:32.the Treasury's policy is applied. Ticking together all of the changes
:12:32. > :12:36.to schemes which could affect our budget, higher employee
:12:36. > :12:40.contributions in line with the Treasury policy would generate �400
:12:40. > :12:44.million per year in additional revenue. If we were not to
:12:44. > :12:48.introduce the increases to employ contribution rates, we may need to
:12:48. > :12:51.find �400 million per year to replace that funding. That would
:12:51. > :12:56.lead to further pressure on public services and public sector jobs in
:12:56. > :13:00.Scotland. So, we have limited powers to act differently from the
:13:00. > :13:06.UK given the assumptions that have been made by the UK government on
:13:06. > :13:11.the effect on public finances of increased contributions. And that
:13:11. > :13:14.is, the Treasury is able, once again, to exercise control over
:13:14. > :13:18.Scottish Resources. By taking his cause, the UK Government is making
:13:18. > :13:21.it difficult for us to pursue our approach of discussing how to
:13:21. > :13:26.achieve a fair balance of costs in the short and long-term. For
:13:26. > :13:30.example, by using cost sharing arrangements and ensuring proper
:13:30. > :13:33.consideration of and consultation on these far-reaching changes.
:13:34. > :13:41.Clearly, we need an open and constructive dialogue about taking
:13:41. > :13:45.this issue forward. Last week, the first minister and I discussed
:13:45. > :13:50.local government issues. I have also discussed the matter with the
:13:50. > :13:53.STUC and other relevant trade unions to share this fear. As a
:13:53. > :13:57.government, recalling on the UK government to reconsider their
:13:57. > :14:01.policy on contribution rates and consider this alongside Lord
:14:01. > :14:04.Hutton's long term recommendations, within the context of current
:14:04. > :14:08.constraints on public sector pay and rising household costs. There
:14:08. > :14:11.are also pressing for a more appropriate timetable for
:14:11. > :14:15.consideration of this issue. We believe the UK government has not
:14:15. > :14:19.taken account of uniquely Scottish actors and the importance we, and
:14:19. > :14:23.this Parliament, place on thorough consultation. The issue of pension
:14:23. > :14:25.reform requires consent to be built. We do not believe that has been
:14:25. > :14:30.achieved and we get the UK government to take a different
:14:30. > :14:34.cause. This statement has been designed to help inform the public
:14:34. > :14:37.discussion that must take place on this vital question. I also hope
:14:37. > :14:40.the UK government and the Treasury in particular will take careful
:14:40. > :14:45.note of the views expressed in this Parliament, representing as a do,
:14:45. > :14:48.the will of the people of Scotland. Finally, let me address the
:14:48. > :14:51.question of industrial action, which has been proposed by some but
:14:52. > :14:54.not all of the trade unions involved. Is that the government
:14:54. > :15:04.does not believe there is a case for industrial action to be taken
:15:04. > :15:04.
:15:04. > :15:55.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds
:15:55. > :16:01.one negotiations on this issue one I think that disappointed many of
:16:01. > :16:08.our affiliated trade unions. It will have angered many individuals
:16:08. > :16:13.as well. It is a fine line about when the time comes, to say, if you
:16:13. > :16:18.are not going to negotiate sensibly, if you were going to come out with
:16:18. > :16:22.public pronouncements while these negotiations are ongoing, then we
:16:22. > :16:25.are going to have to take action. The finance Secretary was very
:16:25. > :16:35.sympathetic to your cause, but he did say that many Scots would be
:16:35. > :16:38.affected by industrial action. have taken a lot of points from the
:16:38. > :16:41.Cabinet Secretary's statement and we will try to arrange a meeting
:16:41. > :16:47.with John Swinney about how we can engage with the process. And yes,
:16:47. > :16:55.as happens in any industrial action, there will be people disadvantaged
:16:55. > :16:58.by that industrial action. We also have to look at the terms of -- and
:16:58. > :17:02.conditions a public sector workers. They will be disadvantaged because
:17:02. > :17:10.public sector workers bodily deliver services but they also
:17:10. > :17:14.access these services, -- not only. Industrial action has to be taken.
:17:14. > :17:17.The finance Secretary was clear in saying that he believed the UK
:17:17. > :17:20.government had jumped the gun on the consultation. John Swinney's
:17:20. > :17:24.statement is all about trying to position himself as being on the
:17:24. > :17:29.side of the public sector in Scotland. He is saying, I will work
:17:29. > :17:33.with you, stick with us, do not cripple Scotland would strikes are
:17:33. > :17:37.we try to get the economy moving. The bottom line is, nobody takes
:17:37. > :17:42.industrial action lightly. It is always a last resort for any trade
:17:42. > :17:46.union to take members on strike. Stable lose pay again in doing that.
:17:46. > :17:51.I do not think there is any appetite for a strike at at the
:17:51. > :17:54.same time, you also have John Swinney thinking ahead to an
:17:54. > :17:58.independence referendum. If he can build this up as in Scotland, we
:17:58. > :18:04.would go a different way, we would protect our public sector and you
:18:04. > :18:09.are pensions from the UK government... And also, you are
:18:09. > :18:16.seeing a move from the SNP to say that this is not about holes in
:18:16. > :18:22.pension pots which are nobody will be more inclined with Trent to fill.
:18:22. > :18:28.It is about trying to reduce the UK Government deficit. This was caused
:18:28. > :18:37.by bankers and all the rest of it. You can hear it now, why should be
:18:37. > :18:42.harder labourers of Scottish -- Scotland be solving the problem
:18:42. > :18:47.while those who caused it get off scot-free? This will run and run.
:18:47. > :18:50.John Swinney made clear he wants Scotland to go its own way. It is
:18:50. > :18:58.complicated as to how these pensions are devolve in Scotland.
:18:58. > :19:02.Can you take us to? The biggest scheme that the Scottish Government
:19:02. > :19:07.has did will control over is the local government pensions. That is
:19:07. > :19:12.a well funded scheme. There is no argument for an increase in
:19:13. > :19:20.contributions to actually fund that scheme. That support what Lorraine
:19:20. > :19:24.is saying. This is a cash grab on lower-paid workers. Then there are
:19:24. > :19:30.schemes, where they cannot take any positive action without the
:19:30. > :19:38.Treasury. And then there is the Civil Service pension scheme, over
:19:38. > :19:48.which they have no control whatsoever. It does appear the
:19:48. > :19:49.
:19:49. > :19:52.Scottish Government's hands are tied in relation to funding. They
:19:52. > :19:56.are going to get the money back from the Scottish Government one
:19:56. > :20:00.way or the other, either through contributions or removing it from
:20:00. > :20:09.the budget. It is quite is tasteful, when it is a threat.
:20:09. > :20:13.Thank you both very much. Still to come on the programme. The
:20:13. > :20:20.first Scottish questions since the SNP's Holyrood election and there
:20:20. > :20:23.was a very different atmosphere in the chamber. The front pages of
:20:23. > :20:25.this morning's newspapers were full of what could be considered an
:20:25. > :20:28.offence under the new anti- sectarian legislation that is being
:20:28. > :20:31.rushed through Holyrood. There was speculation that making the sign of
:20:31. > :20:33.the cross or singing the National Anthem could lead to prosecution.
:20:33. > :20:36.Today at the Justice Committee, the Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland
:20:36. > :20:42.spelled out why specific new laws were needed to address the
:20:42. > :20:47.sectarian problem. It is not attended to criminalise
:20:47. > :20:50.jokes of satire about religion or religious beliefs. It is not
:20:50. > :20:57.intended to criminalise the singing of national anthems. In the absence
:20:57. > :21:04.of any other aggravating behaviour, of course. It is not intended to
:21:04. > :21:08.criminalise the making of religious gestures while thinking -- singing
:21:08. > :21:13.national anthems, in the absence of further aggravating behaviour.
:21:13. > :21:19.I am joined by John Lamont of the Scottish Conservatives and for the
:21:19. > :21:25.SNP, Humza Yousaf. You were both in that committee which finished a
:21:25. > :21:28.short time ago. John, that was all across today's front pages, about
:21:28. > :21:33.the flower of Scotland and the national anthem being illegal. You
:21:33. > :21:37.brought that up with Roseanna Cunningham yesterday. Were you
:21:37. > :21:42.being mischievous? It was quite clear in the legislation that these
:21:42. > :21:45.things would not be illegal. point is, it is not clear. We all
:21:46. > :21:48.recognise this type of behaviour is not acceptable and you recognise
:21:48. > :21:58.that the Government and football clubs have got to take action to
:21:58. > :21:59.
:21:59. > :22:03.We should not be rushing through this bill which could have all
:22:03. > :22:06.sorts of unintended consequences, one of which which could be the
:22:06. > :22:11.result of singing our national anthem or the flower of Scotland
:22:11. > :22:18.could result in criminal section. It was clear what the Lord Advocate
:22:18. > :22:22.was saying there. If you were to do it in an offensive way that could
:22:22. > :22:27.cause offence to a reasonable person, that is what would be
:22:27. > :22:36.illegal. The scenario that I put to the Lord Advocate today was that of
:22:36. > :22:41.someone was singing the British national anthem amongst its Celtic
:22:41. > :22:44.fans, would run result in criminal action. He could not answer that.
:22:44. > :22:49.That is the source of situations that are uncertain as defined
:22:49. > :22:53.within the Act. We will wait to see what the guidelines actually say.
:22:53. > :22:58.There is too much uncertainty. We are rushing through this far too
:22:58. > :23:02.quickly. Take stock, think about what we're doing. We need to know
:23:02. > :23:07.it is precise enough so we are catching the people that this is
:23:07. > :23:12.designed to capture. There is lots of uncertainty about this
:23:13. > :23:16.legislation. You were putting the Lord Advocate under quite intense
:23:16. > :23:20.questioning about the legislation covering people travelling to and
:23:20. > :23:24.from that all matches. You were pointing out that that was quite an
:23:24. > :23:29.clear in what is being laid out. think the police evidence was very
:23:30. > :23:35.clear yesterday. They said, we are ready to take this forward, we will
:23:35. > :23:39.be issued with guidelines. I think what is important is that we have
:23:39. > :23:45.trust in the integrity and the judgement of not just the police
:23:45. > :23:52.but the courts, the prosecutor for a school as well -- the pocket of
:23:52. > :23:57.fiscal as well. I think of the police are ready to go forward with
:23:57. > :24:03.this, then we should have absolute trust in that. Do you not think it
:24:03. > :24:07.would be better not to rush this legislation, but a more considered
:24:07. > :24:12.time. The evidence today was that you are not putting that into a
:24:12. > :24:18.report. The bill will go through as his. In an ideal world, we would
:24:18. > :24:23.give people as much time as possible. The priority is clear
:24:23. > :24:28.from the police, from the law officials, from the football clubs,
:24:28. > :24:32.the one this legislation before the football season starts. The head of
:24:32. > :24:36.the SFA said it would be incredibly challenging to bring this
:24:36. > :24:40.legislation midway through the season. He also said there would be
:24:40. > :24:45.natural to bring it in before the season starts. I think that has to
:24:45. > :24:51.be the priority and I am glad we are getting through this evidence.
:24:51. > :24:55.It is clear these laws are needed. We are hearing from the Lord
:24:55. > :25:00.Advocate wide such things like each of the beach are no longer
:25:00. > :25:05.considered applicable for dealing with football matches. He is saying
:25:05. > :25:10.it is an outdated offence. Action is needed. I do not dispute that.
:25:10. > :25:15.But this bill is not the answer. We need to take time to reflect what
:25:15. > :25:20.new laws we need to bring forward to deal with this behaviour, not
:25:20. > :25:27.just the football clubs, but in wider society. It is sending out a
:25:27. > :25:32.clear message that it is not accepted in wider society either.
:25:32. > :25:37.We should not simply be passing law for the sake of it. We need to be
:25:37. > :25:43.taking our time, taking measured actions in response to this problem.
:25:43. > :25:51.And we should not be passing an act of Parliament - will present
:25:51. > :25:55.consequences. That is my fear. We have express clear it sounds about
:25:55. > :26:00.why we should hold back, take stock and consider what we are doing.
:26:00. > :26:05.Humza Yousaf, to pick up on that, to change the view of society, that
:26:05. > :26:09.seems to be the over arching theme from the Scottish Government, that
:26:09. > :26:15.this is going to change the mood music in Scotland. Do you think it
:26:15. > :26:21.will? No 1, be it Government our backbenchers suggest this
:26:21. > :26:25.legislation will be a magic bullet to deal with this problem. This
:26:25. > :26:30.will be an instrumental part but you cannot undervalue the need for
:26:30. > :26:34.education. It will be important and continue to be important so we must
:26:34. > :26:40.continue to provide support for groups that do this. It is part of
:26:40. > :26:45.a wider package. Thank you both very much.
:26:45. > :26:49.Lorraine Davidson from the Times is still with me. I was picking up on
:26:49. > :26:52.that point with Humza Yousaf, he was putting the Lord Advocate under
:26:52. > :26:58.intense questioning their about under how this legislation will
:26:58. > :27:03.actually work. It is interesting that even loyal SNP MSPs are asking
:27:03. > :27:07.questions about how it is going to work. I think there is genuine
:27:07. > :27:14.concern about the speed at which this is going through. It will be
:27:14. > :27:21.done and dusted by the end of this week. SNP's -- MSPs feel this was
:27:21. > :27:26.done quickly. To be fair to the Lord Advocate, this is something he
:27:26. > :27:30.has been looking at for the last 20 years. This is something he went to
:27:30. > :27:35.the Cabinet with before what we saw over the summer. The Lord Advocate
:27:35. > :27:39.has spent a lot of time on this, does understand this and has come
:27:39. > :27:43.up with the sensible set of proposals. But when you hear the
:27:43. > :27:48.committee yesterday and today, there are genuine concerns about
:27:48. > :27:52.how it is going to be enacted. The police training on this is going to
:27:52. > :27:58.be absolutely crucial. I think there are fears about what they are
:27:58. > :28:04.saying, we are not going to run an arrest on a whole mob chanting.
:28:04. > :28:10.What are you going to do? Pick on the one -- take on one man doing it
:28:10. > :28:15.outside the state and? The police are also talking about the would
:28:15. > :28:20.not go to a pub with two Mackworth three officers. They would need 20
:28:20. > :28:25.are 30. This raises concerns about how heavy handed the approach would
:28:25. > :28:32.be to this. If they would approach a man with the knife, they would
:28:32. > :28:36.manage to do that with two officers. Why someone would need 30 officers
:28:36. > :28:45.to arrest someone singing a song, I do not understand. MSPs are quite
:28:45. > :28:51.right Leesing, hold on a minute. We need to be clear about this.
:28:51. > :28:54.Roseanna Cunningham said there had to be a review. If there were
:28:54. > :28:58.unintended consequences, they would have to be monitoring this
:28:58. > :29:02.legislation quickly and may be pulling back on some of it or
:29:02. > :29:06.refining it further down the road. If you are a politician, your job
:29:06. > :29:11.is to make sure you do not sign up to something like this in the first
:29:11. > :29:16.place. Thank you very much for that. Now to the first Scottish questions
:29:16. > :29:19.at Westminster since the recent Holyrood -- Holyrood elections.
:29:19. > :29:26.There was questions about the closure of course garb questions
:29:26. > :29:36.and some interesting comments made by some Labour MP.
:29:36. > :29:37.
:29:37. > :29:43.Questions to the Scottish Secretary of state. Mr Speaker, I have
:29:43. > :29:47.regular conversations. Inflation is being pushed higher by a rising
:29:47. > :29:54.global commodity prices. This is a global problem which requires
:29:54. > :29:58.global solutions. Thank you Mr Speaker. It is clear the VAT hike
:29:58. > :30:02.in January has helped to drive up inflation which is squeezing family
:30:02. > :30:07.income is, hitting consumer spending and holding back strong
:30:07. > :30:14.growth. Will he now speak up for businesses in Scotland and urge to
:30:14. > :30:20.the Chancellor to reverse that VAT rise to help improve consumer
:30:20. > :30:25.confidence and bring down inflation? As he knows, before
:30:25. > :30:30.market -- Chancellor said he would have done exactly the same in
:30:30. > :30:35.relation to VAT. And secondly, a cut in VAT would do nothing to
:30:35. > :30:39.reverse global commodity price rises, but we do a lot to reverse
:30:39. > :30:49.the Government's credibility to get the deficit down. This does not
:30:49. > :30:56.seem to be important to the party opposite. In answer to the question,
:30:56. > :31:06.I was confirmed that four out of the last five years, the rise in
:31:06. > :31:14.
:31:14. > :31:17.domestic gas rises have out gone up incomes. The as the honourable
:31:17. > :31:25.member will know, the Government is concerned about the rise of fuel
:31:25. > :31:30.prices, in particular gas prices. One of the measures which it has
:31:30. > :31:36.taken is to ensure that poorest families to have protection and
:31:36. > :31:42.relation to their field costs. Minister will welcome the inquiry
:31:42. > :31:45.announced today by Ofgem on the price rise announced by Scottish
:31:45. > :31:50.Power and the way they have announced that changed to consumers.
:31:50. > :31:54.Does he agree with me that it is completely inappropriate for energy
:31:54. > :32:00.companies to have added to the increased cost of living in
:32:00. > :32:06.Scotland with the hike in domestic bills. What is he doing about it?
:32:06. > :32:11.As the honourable lady knows, there is widespread concern in Scotland
:32:11. > :32:17.at the actions, particularly in relation to the recent rises in
:32:17. > :32:20.fuel costs by Scottish Power. As she knows from previous questions,
:32:20. > :32:28.the Secretary of State and I have raised these questions with these
:32:28. > :32:35.companies. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think what Scottish consumers are
:32:35. > :32:39.looking for his action as they are facing rises of �190 a year when
:32:39. > :32:48.wages are being frozen. Prices are rising well above the target
:32:48. > :32:52.inflation rate. Now borrowing is higher that. Would he now agree it
:32:52. > :32:58.is time for a plan B and for a temporary cut in VAT which Labour
:32:58. > :33:07.has called for? It will not surprise me at -- the honourable
:33:07. > :33:10.lady to say No It's -- certainly not. She never acknowledges her
:33:10. > :33:15.part as a Minister or her party's part in bringing this country to
:33:15. > :33:21.the verge of bankruptcy, or the need to take the steps that this
:33:21. > :33:25.Government has taken, the tough action required. She knows as well
:33:25. > :33:34.that the Shadow Chancellor is in the majority of one in terms of his
:33:34. > :33:39.proposal and has not set out... must move on. This is a question
:33:39. > :33:43.about the benefits of the Union. The Government believes that
:33:43. > :33:49.Scotland benefits from being part of the United Kingdom and that the
:33:49. > :33:59.United Kingdom benefits from having Scotland within it. I thank him for
:33:59. > :34:00.
:34:00. > :34:05.that answer. As someone who represents just over the border of
:34:05. > :34:11.England, can he say whether England benefits from being part of the
:34:11. > :34:17.Union? I wholeheartedly endorse what my honourable friend has just
:34:17. > :34:20.said. The union is of great benefit to all of the United Kingdom,
:34:20. > :34:25.however my constituents want to see if fairness between Scotland and
:34:25. > :34:34.England. With this in mind, what plans as they have in mind for the
:34:34. > :34:37.current formula? He will recall from the Scotland bill, we
:34:37. > :34:41.recognise this as an issue across the UK. We are committed to
:34:41. > :34:47.reviewing it when we have resolved the current financial problems that
:34:47. > :34:51.we inherited from the party opposite. In a separate Scotland
:34:51. > :34:55.would not have been able to survive the global banking crisis on its
:34:55. > :35:01.own. Had it been separate, it would have been heading the way of
:35:01. > :35:04.Ireland and Greece. He makes an important point because the scale
:35:04. > :35:10.of the financial disaster that befell both Royal Bank of Scotland
:35:10. > :35:17.and Halifax Bank of Scotland would have picked a crippling burden upon
:35:17. > :35:23.Scotland. By being part of the UK, we are sharing the risks and read -
:35:23. > :35:27.- and sharing the recovery. Does he agree that was the future of the
:35:27. > :35:32.constitution is hotly debated, there is no place for leading
:35:32. > :35:38.Unionists to describe the supporters of Scottish independence
:35:38. > :35:45.as neo-fascists? I think it is incumbent upon all of us in this
:35:45. > :35:49.debate to ensure be used moderate, appropriate language. In what used
:35:49. > :35:53.to set, it is to benefit to the union and Scotland that the house
:35:53. > :36:03.of Commons, Scottish affairs Select Committee is chaired by somebody
:36:03. > :36:05.
:36:06. > :36:11.who last night discovered -- described the coalition party...
:36:11. > :36:16.this House, we do not make challenges to one another's on her.
:36:16. > :36:26.It is a matter for the honourable gentleman to raise. I have made my
:36:26. > :36:32.
:36:32. > :36:36.position clear. It is important in With permission, I will answer
:36:36. > :36:38.these two questions together. The Secretary of State and I have
:36:38. > :36:41.regular discussions with the Deputy Prime Minister, on a range of
:36:41. > :36:48.issues. The Government remains committed to establishing a
:36:48. > :36:52.commission later this year to consider the West Lothian question.
:36:52. > :36:55.Time is of the essence here. This is a difficult question. The
:36:55. > :36:59.commission will need time to consider its recommendations, and
:36:59. > :37:04.then this house will need time to consider the outcome of those
:37:04. > :37:12.recommendations. It will be better for this to be done at a time of
:37:12. > :37:16.constitutional peace rather than crisis. I do respect the honourable
:37:16. > :37:19.lady's passion on the subject. She has a bill before the house which
:37:19. > :37:23.touches on these issues. I understand it will be heard on the
:37:23. > :37:28.first Friday of the September sitting, which would give the whole
:37:28. > :37:32.opportunity a chance to debate is issues. I will convey her call for
:37:32. > :37:37.Agency to the Deputy Prime Minister. Having passed the Scotland Bill and
:37:37. > :37:43.with new powers devolved to Wales, does my honourable friend agree
:37:43. > :37:48.that the last thing we want is another expensive Parliament
:37:48. > :37:55.assembly? The British Parliament here can cope with matters --
:37:55. > :38:01.English matters, but decided by English MPs.
:38:01. > :38:06.I have always expressed the view that there was no desire for an
:38:06. > :38:13.English parliament and the same two people have always written to me
:38:13. > :38:20.afterwards to say that I was wrong. Does the minister agree with me
:38:20. > :38:24.that the issue was more complex than the members opposite will
:38:24. > :38:29.allow? An example of this is the debate before Christmas on tuition
:38:29. > :38:34.fees. That may have been regarded as an English issue, but it had
:38:34. > :38:40.tremendous consequences for Scotland. I do acknowledge the
:38:40. > :38:44.honorable lady's.. This is a complex issue and that is why the
:38:44. > :38:49.coalition is it established -- committed to establishing a
:38:49. > :38:52.commission to look at the issue. I hope it will take evidence from
:38:52. > :38:55.people such as herself. I'm sure the honorable gentleman is
:38:55. > :39:01.right when he says there is no great demand for an English
:39:01. > :39:07.parliament but does he not accept that the proposals effectively lead
:39:07. > :39:13.to two classes of MPs in his has? It amounts to setting up an English
:39:13. > :39:17.parliament, in this building. But the rate he will go down if his
:39:17. > :39:20.government accepts having two classes of MPs in his house. I do
:39:20. > :39:29.not acknowledge the honorable gentleman's. Because the devolution
:39:29. > :39:32.settlement already means that MPs have different responsibilities
:39:32. > :39:35.depending on where they are from. The government is committed to
:39:35. > :39:38.looking at the issue of the West Lothian question which is a
:39:38. > :39:48.substantive issue, which the previous government ignored. We
:39:48. > :39:50.
:39:50. > :39:53.will set up a commission later this year.
:39:53. > :39:56.The plan for growth published in the march budget set out a
:39:56. > :40:04.programme of reforms to create the right conditions for private
:40:04. > :40:09.sector-led growth. This month commitment -- be Government is
:40:09. > :40:12.trying to create the right conditions for business to grow.
:40:12. > :40:16.The at a time when the Treasury is bringing stability to the banking
:40:16. > :40:20.sector and Banking regulation, as my honourable friend agree that the
:40:20. > :40:30.SNP's drive offer the Scottish independence could destabilise
:40:30. > :40:31.
:40:32. > :40:39.be asked about independence, the number of questions and the timing
:40:39. > :40:43.of it, has an uncertainty which is no good for the Scottish economy.
:40:43. > :40:47.Medium-sized companies are vital engines of growth and job creation,
:40:47. > :40:51.in Scotland and across the UK. In the current climate, improving
:40:51. > :40:54.access to funding for them is a vital priority. Can my honourable
:40:54. > :40:59.friend tell the house what steps he is taking to address this challenge
:40:59. > :41:04.and do they include working with organisations like the Federation
:41:04. > :41:08.for small businesses in Scotland? My honourable friend is absolutely
:41:08. > :41:11.right to highlight is particularly important issue. Access to finance
:41:11. > :41:15.is a critical issue and unless we get enough lending to small or
:41:15. > :41:19.medium-sized businesses, amongst others, my mum not get the economy
:41:19. > :41:23.growing again. That is why it is central to be plans for growth to
:41:23. > :41:27.make sure that we create the conditions in which we can see
:41:27. > :41:30.businesses start, grow and invest in them in the appropriate way. We
:41:30. > :41:36.have set out tough targets indeed for lending to businesses across
:41:36. > :41:40.the UK. I wonder if the Secretary of State
:41:40. > :41:45.would agree but it is essential for business growth that businesses
:41:45. > :41:48.have access to faster broadband? Does he share my concern that many
:41:49. > :41:52.Scottish constituencies, like mine, do not have access to this and can
:41:52. > :41:56.he say what discussions he has had it is that government regarding
:41:56. > :41:59.this? Well, a week or so ago when I met
:41:59. > :42:09.the honorable lady to discuss the situation with the economy and air
:42:09. > :42:13.
:42:13. > :42:20.shire, I know this is one of the key issues she she wanted to raise.
:42:20. > :42:22.-- Ayrshire. It is vital we sit-in the borders and all the parts of
:42:22. > :42:26.the country. I'm happy to work with the Scottish Government and others
:42:26. > :42:29.to ensure we achieve it. As the Secretary of State have an
:42:29. > :42:33.opportunity to read the government expenditure and revenue study
:42:33. > :42:35.published this morning, which actually shows that the Scottish
:42:35. > :42:39.economy is outperforming the UK economy and carrying a lower
:42:39. > :42:42.deficit? Will he take this opportunity to congratulate the
:42:42. > :42:48.Scottish Government on its efforts to promote stability by promoting
:42:48. > :42:51.economic growth and recovery? That is a typically interesting
:42:51. > :42:57.interpretation of the figures in the report this morning, which show
:42:57. > :43:00.that on every measure, Scotland is running at the deficit. It
:43:00. > :43:05.highlights the volatility and difficulties that are associated
:43:05. > :43:08.with the different measures. Can I say to her, it is vital that we get
:43:08. > :43:12.the Scottish economy back on the right footing. That is why as a
:43:12. > :43:17.government, we are putting call corporation tax, keeping interest
:43:17. > :43:20.rates low and reducing the burden on national insurance. I'm happy to
:43:20. > :43:28.work with the Scottish Government to have fantastic economic powers
:43:28. > :43:35.at their disposal. It must be a partnership.
:43:35. > :43:40.This is a question about the Greenock coastguard station.
:43:40. > :43:49.I want to pay tribute to David Cairns, who has been campaigning to
:43:49. > :43:52.save the Clyde coastguard station before his tragic early death. The
:43:52. > :43:57.Scottish islands and peninsula's present a unique challenge to
:43:57. > :44:00.seafarers. Of the Clyde coastguard station is closed, all the valuable
:44:00. > :44:04.local knowledge of his area held by workers will be lost. Will the
:44:04. > :44:08.Minister please draw this to the attention of the transport
:44:08. > :44:12.secretary and edging to keep his transport secretary open.
:44:12. > :44:16.It is appropriate there is mention of David Cairns at his first
:44:16. > :44:23.Scottish questions senses tragic death, having served so
:44:23. > :44:31.distinguished lay as a Scotland office minister. -- inside a
:44:31. > :44:33.distinguished man. I assure him the points will have been heard. The
:44:33. > :44:40.Department of Transport will not make any announcement on the future
:44:40. > :44:44.of could go stations until the Select Committee has reported.
:44:44. > :44:49.Our very own David Porter was watching the Scottish questions and
:44:49. > :44:52.we join him now. Thank you. As we said, the first
:44:52. > :44:55.Scottish questions today since the Holyrood elections and last night,
:44:55. > :45:03.the third reading at committee stage of the Scotland Bill, which
:45:03. > :45:09.will of course give far more powers to the Holyrood Parliament. As we
:45:09. > :45:19.heard, as that of questions it was overshadowed by a row caused by Ian
:45:19. > :45:27.
:45:27. > :45:29.Davidson, going so far as to liken You have call today for Ian
:45:29. > :45:34.Davidson to resign today of the Commons Scottish Affairs Select
:45:34. > :45:40.Committee. Why? I think it is important in democratic politics
:45:40. > :45:44.that we use certain terms judiciously and there are some
:45:44. > :45:51.words in democratic discourse batter just beyond the pale and are
:45:51. > :45:55.not acceptable. Between democratic political parties, we are all
:45:55. > :46:01.mainstream political parties. We all support human rights. We are
:46:01. > :46:05.against discrimination. But very senior member of the Labour Party
:46:05. > :46:15.who is the chairman of the Select Committee responsible for her
:46:15. > :46:17.
:46:17. > :46:22.overseeing issues for Scotland's, it is unacceptable and serious. It
:46:22. > :46:27.is so serious that he cannot remain in that position. I am sorry that
:46:27. > :46:32.is has fallen on Tom to even comment on this. Ian Davidson
:46:32. > :46:36.should be here. He should be apologising. He should be with
:46:36. > :46:42.trying his statement. He cannot remain chairman as the Commons
:46:42. > :46:46.Scottish Affairs Select Committee as -- after such a slur.
:46:46. > :46:50.understand he is travelling to Scotland. I will not ask you to
:46:50. > :46:58.speak on they have of Ian Davidson. But there is no way that you or the
:46:58. > :47:07.Liberal Party can condone the Commons that he made? We have made
:47:07. > :47:14.clear the term he used was an appropriate. I would anticipate
:47:14. > :47:19.that he would apologise. Do you think you should stand down? It is
:47:19. > :47:24.not up to me to determine the future of the Select Committee. It
:47:24. > :47:28.is independent of political parties. Members of the Select Committee are
:47:28. > :47:38.elected by different parties. It is not a matter for me to interfere in
:47:38. > :47:40.
:47:40. > :47:44.that. I regret that he used that term been trying to make 40 in an
:47:44. > :47:48.important issue. Angus Robertson, the bill as it stands does not give
:47:48. > :47:54.you what you want. From your point of view, you think it is a better a
:47:55. > :47:59.bill now than we had two mac was a goal. The Scotland bill is about
:47:59. > :48:03.income -- incremental change. It does not include measures that we
:48:03. > :48:07.think would make a difference. The business community make a
:48:07. > :48:11.difference. Given that there are further stages, given that the
:48:11. > :48:15.Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats and their allies in the
:48:15. > :48:24.Labour Party, say they are prepared to listen to suggestions from the
:48:24. > :48:29.Scottish Government, that is good. It is really important that in a
:48:29. > :48:32.democracy we protect the culture of political debate. I think it is
:48:32. > :48:38.incumbent on people like Tom or me, people in leadership positions,
:48:38. > :48:42.that we set the record straight. Not only are things unacceptable,
:48:42. > :48:47.that there are consequences. This is more serious than just
:48:47. > :48:50.withdrawing are just saying I am sorry. Someone who chairs a Select
:48:50. > :48:56.Committee is responsible for that committee being able to work any
:48:56. > :49:00.non prejudicial way. You cannot get a more prejudiced statement then we
:49:00. > :49:04.heard from Ian Davidson last night, which is why I expect him to resign
:49:04. > :49:08.by the end of today. And I expect the Labour Party to ensure that
:49:08. > :49:14.happens. I am going to give the final word in this discussion to
:49:14. > :49:18.you. Going back to the bill, are you now convinced that this is the
:49:18. > :49:23.best bill possible, it is in the best shape possible and it will
:49:23. > :49:27.deliver what Scotland needs in the new political landscape?
:49:27. > :49:34.process has been a long one, starting with the Scottish
:49:34. > :49:38.Parliament setting up the coal... What I regret is that it has
:49:38. > :49:43.overshadowed the important point that Stewart Hosie was asked five
:49:43. > :49:49.times to give some details on these proposals on corporation tax and
:49:49. > :49:55.five times he failed to do so. I think it is difficult to think some
:49:55. > :49:59.of the alternatives the SNP, with one there is no detail. We are not
:49:59. > :50:02.quite at the end of it. We have quite a stage to go with it. I
:50:02. > :50:06.think the Government and the principal opposition party, the
:50:06. > :50:09.Labour Party, have worked closely to come up with the set of
:50:10. > :50:13.arrangements which give more power to the Scottish Parliament. It
:50:13. > :50:19.gives a better position for Scotland. We have got to live but
:50:19. > :50:23.there. Thank you both very much. -- we have got to leave it there.
:50:23. > :50:26.Whatever the language is being used today, there is still a lot of
:50:26. > :50:33.discussion to go on around the Scotland bill and the future of
:50:33. > :50:37.politics north of the border. Let's get some closing thoughts in
:50:37. > :50:41.the company of Lorraine Davidson of the times. We're hearing Angus
:50:41. > :50:47.Robertson saying there have to be consequence for Ian Davidson's new
:50:47. > :50:50.fashion statement. You think he will end up resigning? I do not
:50:50. > :50:54.think he is the resigning type. I do not think he would apologise.
:50:54. > :51:04.The events of last night, Labour should have been in a position
:51:04. > :51:04.
:51:04. > :51:08.today of being able to say, it was our idea to have the commission.
:51:09. > :51:14.The... He came out with these ill- judged remarks. It has allowed that
:51:14. > :51:18.to become the story. The really need to get out of this. The way to
:51:18. > :51:24.do that is to find some form of words, even if it is to say, if you
:51:24. > :51:33.are offended, I am sorry. To get out of this. Otherwise this is just
:51:33. > :51:40.going to run for the next two 3 -- or three days. It takes away from
:51:40. > :51:46.what Labour is trying to stay on the constitution. Let's turn to the
:51:46. > :51:53.Scotland bill. They pass through the house of Lords yesterday. Angus
:51:53. > :51:59.Robertson saying, incremental and anaemic change. He was not fully
:52:00. > :52:04.endorsing it. The SNP must be disappointed that none of Mr
:52:04. > :52:12.Salmond's powers were included in the Bill. The apples to the Calman
:52:12. > :52:17.Commission when it was set up. -- the opposed. It was only because
:52:17. > :52:21.the SNP won in 2007 that the Calman commission was set up. We have now
:52:21. > :52:25.had further powers. They have got to say this is disappointing and
:52:25. > :52:30.pathetic. But behind the scenes, they are thinking that is another
:52:30. > :52:34.piece of the jigsaw in place, now we move it on. That is the Crown
:52:34. > :52:37.Estates staff and the corporation tax. It is now up to them to set
:52:37. > :52:42.out how they would make those proposals work. Thank you very much
:52:42. > :52:47.for your company this afternoon. That is all we have got time for