:00:18. > :00:20.Good afternoon and welcome to a special Politics Scotland programme.
:00:21. > :00:22.As the country prepares for the crucial vote
:00:23. > :00:24.on its future in, or out, of the European Union,
:00:25. > :00:29.today's programme will focus on exactly that.
:00:30. > :00:31.First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has united with her four
:00:32. > :00:37.predecessors to back a vote for the UK to remain in the EU.
:00:38. > :00:39.They released a statement this morning saying the EU is "vital
:00:40. > :00:42.for jobs and investment in Scotland".
:00:43. > :00:45.But the Leave campaign say the only way to protect Scotland from EU
:00:46. > :00:50.And that the first ministers were "out of touch" with ordinary
:00:51. > :00:55.voters over what they called "uncontrolled EU migration".
:00:56. > :00:59.Ross Thomson from the Scottish Conservatives,
:01:00. > :01:03.Former Labour MP Nigel Griffiths is from
:01:04. > :01:09.Ivan McKee from the SNP, who wants to remain in the EU.
:01:10. > :01:11.And Ross Greer from the Scottish Green Party,
:01:12. > :01:19.Now, if the opinion polls are to be believed, Thursday night's
:01:20. > :01:22.Surveys generally showed the Leave camp
:01:23. > :01:24.ahead until late last week, when the Remain camp clawed
:01:25. > :01:39.But the bookies seem increasingly confident that remain will win.
:01:40. > :01:49.Let's start with the position the campaigns are in. If Remain are
:01:50. > :01:52.claiming that every economic institution said it would be a
:01:53. > :01:58.disaster if Britain left, with so many business leaders timing I do
:01:59. > :02:03.say Remain, why aren't you well ahead in the polls? I think the
:02:04. > :02:09.Leave campaign has been pushing the immigration card. Looking at the
:02:10. > :02:12.fact is on that, the reality is that if we left the EU we could control
:02:13. > :02:17.our borders better... We will talk about that later, but with so many
:02:18. > :02:22.of the so-called experts on your side, it must surprise you that you
:02:23. > :02:25.are not walking this. In terms of the economy, most people would that
:02:26. > :02:28.you are not walking this. In terms of the economy, most people would
:02:29. > :02:33.written and the economy would have a problem if we were outside the EU.
:02:34. > :02:36.The Leave campaign of English and immigration card and that is one of
:02:37. > :02:40.the arguments we can't dismantle over the course of this programme.
:02:41. > :02:45.Are you saying that your feeling that even if people feel they will
:02:46. > :02:48.be worse off by quitting the EU, that immigration is so important for
:02:49. > :02:53.them that they will vote to leave anyway? So much nonsense has been
:02:54. > :02:57.talk out the Leave side that people are starting to believe it. That is
:02:58. > :03:01.something we can't dismantle through the courts of this programme. Every
:03:02. > :03:05.economic adviser or a business person that has looked at that and
:03:06. > :03:10.thought about it, they understand we would have a serious problem in our
:03:11. > :03:14.economy if Britain was outside of the European Union. Nigel Griffiths,
:03:15. > :03:19.why do you think that Leave are doing so well? I assume that even
:03:20. > :03:24.you would not expect to be neck and neck at this stage? People are
:03:25. > :03:28.weighing up the evidence. These economists at the same ones who said
:03:29. > :03:32.we would need to join the euro and the cup back completely wrong. It is
:03:33. > :03:40.the same economists who said on the 12th of March 2008 in the budget...
:03:41. > :03:43.We will discuss the economy in particular, but what about the point
:03:44. > :03:49.that immigration is trumping fears about the economy. I don't believe
:03:50. > :03:53.that. Leaflets have been handed out to millions of people that I wrote
:03:54. > :03:56.that has not even mentioned immigration. You are not seriously
:03:57. > :04:02.going to say that the reason many people are going to both... It is
:04:03. > :04:07.not the pre-eminent reason. There are other reasons, including the
:04:08. > :04:10.economy and concerns about the state of the euro, the bailouts we have
:04:11. > :04:15.had to contribute to another European countries and in general
:04:16. > :04:23.the torpor of the European budget. That is why a lot of people think
:04:24. > :04:28.that we would be better right. Ross, you must be surprised that you're
:04:29. > :04:33.not doing better? Definitely frustrated, not necessarily
:04:34. > :04:38.surprised. It shows the need... Everybody needs to turn out to vote.
:04:39. > :04:43.There has been massively antiestablishment feeling. There is
:04:44. > :04:47.a huge report: not just does politics but European politics and
:04:48. > :04:49.across the pond as well about what people perceive as establishment
:04:50. > :04:53.across the pond as well about what forces, which is where you can see a
:04:54. > :04:57.backlash against the opinions of people like the IMF and the Bank of
:04:58. > :05:01.England. In this case it has been completely misplaced. People leading
:05:02. > :05:06.the Leave campaign are the epitome of the establishment. Boris Johnson
:05:07. > :05:12.is the epitome of the establishment. People just want to give the powers
:05:13. > :05:17.that be at kicking, isn't it a bit rich for you and Ivan to say that is
:05:18. > :05:19.a problem because both of you were in favour of independence for
:05:20. > :05:24.a problem because both of you were Scotland. A lot of people voted for
:05:25. > :05:27.that because they wanted to give the establishment kicking. It is more
:05:28. > :05:32.sophisticated than that. There is a value in antiestablishment politics,
:05:33. > :05:36.but leaving the EU is not the answer to that. Handing the right wing of
:05:37. > :05:42.the right-wing of British politics more power. Why can't you convince
:05:43. > :05:47.more people but that is the case? It is neck and neck. All referendums
:05:48. > :05:54.seem to coalesce in the last few days. The referendum vote became
:05:55. > :06:00.very close but we ended up losing by a higher margin than we expected.
:06:01. > :06:04.The problem is that the facts but I'd been completely untrue. The ?350
:06:05. > :06:10.million a week that we give to Europe, that is completely untrue.
:06:11. > :06:15.They put that on millions of leaflets and it starts getting
:06:16. > :06:20.through to people. I am interested, Ross Thompson, why do you think,
:06:21. > :06:25.again, I've resumed that you would have thought this that Remain
:06:26. > :06:30.would've been further ahead by this stage? We have always been told how
:06:31. > :06:35.emphatically in support of the EU is that Scotland is. The First Minister
:06:36. > :06:40.has told us that. I have never felt that on the ground, I have knocked
:06:41. > :06:45.on doors for weeks and weeks, and they always felt there was something
:06:46. > :06:50.there, frustration, I amongst the public that was not being reflected
:06:51. > :06:55.in the polls. A couple of weeks ago we started to see that change. More
:06:56. > :06:59.and more people were engaging with the message and it was resonating. I
:07:00. > :07:07.genuinely believe that Scotland will not vote as emphatically in favour
:07:08. > :07:11.of Remain as people may think. I think things are very close to call
:07:12. > :07:15.across the UK. In Scotland we have been working really hard and I think
:07:16. > :07:20.it will be closer here than most of us sitting round the table expected
:07:21. > :07:25.to be. Would it concern you, Nigel Griffiths, that if we leave the UK
:07:26. > :07:30.then breaking up the UK could be on the agenda as well as picking up the
:07:31. > :07:35.European Union? Know, in fact Nicola Sturgeon said that voting to leave
:07:36. > :07:39.the EU would set back the cause for independence. And when did you
:07:40. > :07:45.believe a word Nicola Sturgeon said? Not often, but she is right on that.
:07:46. > :07:48.The SNP would then have to knock on doors and safety people we want to
:07:49. > :07:53.reapply to the EU, join the euro to do that, and that was always the
:07:54. > :07:56.policy but they have tried to switch away from that, and I don't think
:07:57. > :08:00.the people of Scotland one to join the euro and I think that would help
:08:01. > :08:04.sink the campaign. Absolutely not true. You don't have to join the
:08:05. > :08:15.sink the campaign. Absolutely not Euro to join the EU. I know there
:08:16. > :08:20.are lots of pro-independence force Scotland voters who will vote Leave.
:08:21. > :08:26.Don't they have a point that this would shake up the structures and
:08:27. > :08:32.see what also? If Scotland votes Remain nincompoops Leave, that would
:08:33. > :08:36.be the best result. That turmoil would not be good for anybody. Why
:08:37. > :08:40.wouldn't it be good for independence for Scotland? Because we want to
:08:41. > :08:45.have a Scotland independent within the EU. But you could leave the EU
:08:46. > :08:48.and apply to join it again once you had your independence. Continuous
:08:49. > :08:51.and apply to join it again once you membership of the EU is important
:08:52. > :08:55.and we wouldn't want to cause any disruption on that comment doesn't
:08:56. > :08:59.make any sense. This debate is about whether we want to stay in the EU.
:09:00. > :09:05.For a lot of people that is the debate. This simple fact is if your
:09:06. > :09:08.main thing is you want another independence referendum, the best
:09:09. > :09:13.main thing is you want another possible result is that Scotland
:09:14. > :09:20.would still Remain and England votes to Leave. But that didn't happen at
:09:21. > :09:25.least that would shake things up. If you go to Remain you have no chance.
:09:26. > :09:30.If you believe that Scotland should be an independent country than the
:09:31. > :09:33.best outcome is that the UK as a whole votes to Remain and we
:09:34. > :09:41.continue to build the case for independence. That doesn't make any
:09:42. > :09:46.sense. Euro First Minister has been saying if Scotland votes to Remain
:09:47. > :09:49.but Britain builds the Leave she would have another independence
:09:50. > :09:52.referendum. We would have to put that on the cards because it would
:09:53. > :09:58.be a clear example of Scotland putting on weight and the rest of
:09:59. > :09:59.the UK voting another, that would add to our argument that our votes
:10:00. > :10:05.in Scotland are not given enough add to our argument that our votes
:10:06. > :10:10.importance. The more promising it ripped independence that... But do
:10:11. > :10:14.you not want any road to independence? Is there a good
:10:15. > :10:21.written about with? That is massively oversimplifying it. Is it?
:10:22. > :10:25.On the ground, the people I have been working with a lot of them are
:10:26. > :10:27.card-carrying members of the SNP and the reason they are getting involved
:10:28. > :10:32.in the Leave campaign is that the genuinely say that the Scottish
:10:33. > :10:36.Parliament can't be stronger if we take powers back from Brussels. True
:10:37. > :10:44.nationalists want a stronger Scotland... Nigel is saying that
:10:45. > :10:48.voting Leave makes independence less likely! The First Minister has seen
:10:49. > :10:52.the levels of support rank and rank and file and over the weekend has
:10:53. > :11:02.released panic statements about to vote Remain. That is against the one
:11:03. > :11:11.option that can bring powers and money back to Scotland. It is
:11:12. > :11:16.completely untrue. That money would not come back to Scotland, it would
:11:17. > :11:20.go to the Westminster government. The external relations in terms of
:11:21. > :11:25.negotiation is a reserved matter. This thing that we would get more
:11:26. > :11:33.powers if we weren't in the EU or we would get more money is nonsense.
:11:34. > :11:36.Michael Gove said that Scotland would get powers of immigration if
:11:37. > :11:41.we went in the EU which is such a piece of nonsense it was transparent
:11:42. > :11:47.to nearly everybody. That is the kind of untruths that the Leave
:11:48. > :11:51.campaign are saying. Every fact that contradicts you were something that
:11:52. > :11:56.is against you is untrue! That is your problem. On the euro if you
:11:57. > :12:01.look at article if you have to subscribe to the euro if you apply
:12:02. > :12:08.to join. That is not true. Why are Poland not in the euro? Decidua
:12:09. > :12:23.mantra. Why are Poland not in the euro, the Czech Republic? They
:12:24. > :12:32.joined some time ago... Could I just intervene? This is all very
:12:33. > :12:38.fascinating. One thing we do know about the last day is that a lot of
:12:39. > :12:44.people out there have not made up their mind. One of the things that I
:12:45. > :12:48.hear is that it is really difficult, we find it really difficult to
:12:49. > :12:51.decide so if you talk over each other you will make everyone more
:12:52. > :13:00.confused so let everyone have their say. Let's move on to immigration. A
:13:01. > :13:05.great concern is that as part of the European Union we have an
:13:06. > :13:10.unquantifiable commitment to free migration from the European Union.
:13:11. > :13:13.That is what many people see as a problem. People say we don't mind
:13:14. > :13:18.immigration but we would like Britain to be able to control it. As
:13:19. > :13:22.long as we are a member of the European Union we need to have free
:13:23. > :13:28.movement of people. Why are people wrong to think that? Looking at the
:13:29. > :13:38.UK's immigration there are more people emigrating to inside Britain
:13:39. > :13:42.from outside the EU than inside. If it was easy to control immigration
:13:43. > :13:45.has the Leave campaign said if we control our own borders, then why
:13:46. > :13:49.are they unable to control immigration from outside the EU.
:13:50. > :13:54.That gives a lighter this EU that there a magic bullet and on the
:13:55. > :13:59.first day after we leave the EU we can control immigration and bring it
:14:00. > :14:01.down significantly. David Cameron campaigned on a campaign into
:14:02. > :14:07.bringing immigration down into the tens of thousands but it is over 400
:14:08. > :14:12.thousand. If it was that easy to do they would've done it already. The
:14:13. > :14:16.second point is, there is a huge number of British citizens living
:14:17. > :14:20.within Europe which needs to be considered in this as well. Freedom
:14:21. > :14:27.of movement goes both ways. Business people need to travel as part of the
:14:28. > :14:31.free trade agreements and that is an important part of that. It works
:14:32. > :14:34.both ways and it is important to understand that. Do you share the
:14:35. > :14:41.concerns about immigration? Immigration was put centrestage by
:14:42. > :14:48.the leader of the campaign, David Cameron. That was part of the
:14:49. > :14:52.critical we negotiation. So everything that has flowed from that
:14:53. > :14:56.has been having immigration centre stage there. We have taken it away
:14:57. > :15:01.from centrestage on the Labour side and not stressed that at all. Of
:15:02. > :15:07.course it is an issue. The solution to it is to have a points -based
:15:08. > :15:12.system so that the people who are coming here RSS, doctors, nurses,
:15:13. > :15:17.engineers, on the basis of the needs of British public services in
:15:18. > :15:21.British industry. At the moment, you can't discriminate against people
:15:22. > :15:25.from the EU who may be less qualified. The problem with what
:15:26. > :15:32.you're saying is you could not have that system and still be a member of
:15:33. > :15:36.the single market so that the option of leaving the EU and joining the
:15:37. > :15:46.EEA, could not happen? rights this is where you are
:15:47. > :15:54.mistaken. There are quite a few countries who have access to the
:15:55. > :15:58.single market. Others do not. Many other countries have access to the
:15:59. > :16:03.single market but do not subscribe. In Europe, every country in Europe
:16:04. > :16:09.outside the EU has access without the free movement of labour. They
:16:10. > :16:15.have access to the EU but are not part of the single market. The only
:16:16. > :16:21.have access to the EU but are not ones with tariffs is Belarus. This
:16:22. > :16:28.is absolutely not true. Until I became an MSP, I worked in business.
:16:29. > :16:37.What you're -- if what you were saying was true, they would not have
:16:38. > :16:42.tariffs. Trying to export stuff in a nightmare. They do not benefit from
:16:43. > :16:49.free movement. This is difficult. Can I do one of my priority points?
:16:50. > :16:55.Either of you correct me if I am wrong. Even if there are not tariff
:16:56. > :17:01.barriers, they are not part of a customs union. So, for example, all
:17:02. > :17:06.the issues about, denies Asian of goods over Europe, they are not
:17:07. > :17:19.subject to all of that. -- homogenisation. Is that correct?
:17:20. > :17:26.Absolutely. It is a nightmare. America is exporting ?500 billion
:17:27. > :17:31.worth of goods here. China, ?430 billion. They can export and they
:17:32. > :17:37.can do it quite often with low or more tariffs. -- are no tariffs. We
:17:38. > :17:43.are within the single market at the moment. For every three jobs we have
:17:44. > :17:50.here on services we send there, they have five jobs dependent on it. Why
:17:51. > :17:58.impose tariffs? The Treasury and others say if we are to vote, the
:17:59. > :18:01.best option would be to join the European economic area, that would
:18:02. > :18:06.be the least economically damaging, they say. If we are to have a points
:18:07. > :18:14.-based system on immigration, you cannot be a member of the EU eight.
:18:15. > :18:21.Everybody agrees the worst for Britain would be to simply be
:18:22. > :18:27.outside any trade agreements applying WTO rules. The Leave
:18:28. > :18:31.campaign seem incredibly unsure on which of those options they want.
:18:32. > :18:36.What we have been clear on is that if the UK votes to leave, it will be
:18:37. > :18:40.unprecedented. There is nothing that goes before it. We will be creating
:18:41. > :18:45.history in doing it. We can therefore set up by new -- Rohlin
:18:46. > :18:50.new deal with Europe. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.
:18:51. > :18:59.We buy more from Europe than we sell. Any of the producers in
:19:00. > :19:07.Germany and France will want to impose higher tariffs on the goods
:19:08. > :19:13.from the UK. There will have to be a period of negotiation after a leave.
:19:14. > :19:19.A two year period. I am convinced we can get a deal that is better for
:19:20. > :19:24.Britain. You think it might be possible not to have the free
:19:25. > :19:28.movement of labour? One of the principal tenets of the EU is the
:19:29. > :19:34.free movement of labour. That has been a concern across the country.
:19:35. > :19:38.It genuinely is a concern. If we could have changed something, it
:19:39. > :19:43.would have happened in the renegotiation. Unfortunately, David
:19:44. > :19:52.Cameron could not achieve that. How would it be possible for Britain to
:19:53. > :20:03.be part of the EUA? We could create something new by voting to leave.
:20:04. > :20:13.This -- Switzerland and Norway are often referred to. Both of them are
:20:14. > :20:17.on the path to accession. They have accepted things as part of the EU
:20:18. > :20:21.because it is in their interest. We can do something different. We do
:20:22. > :20:26.not have to replicate what others have done. If I can steal one of
:20:27. > :20:29.Ivan McKee's lines from the Independence Referendum, aren't you
:20:30. > :20:33.saying exactly what the pro-referendum people are saying to
:20:34. > :20:39.they say they cannot -- we cannot use the pound. As soon as we vote
:20:40. > :20:41.for independence, the Bank of England will no longer be saying
:20:42. > :20:46.that because they are so desperate to trade with us. It is the same
:20:47. > :20:50.argument. I think it is very different. We need to add some
:20:51. > :20:54.common-sense. If Britain was to leave, we are the fifth largest
:20:55. > :21:00.economy in the world. We contribute so much to it. There is the scope
:21:01. > :21:05.within that to actually achieve something which works better for
:21:06. > :21:10.Scotland. On that specific point, Ross Grier, is it unreasonable to
:21:11. > :21:15.say... We're talking about Norway and Iceland and Liechtenstein. We
:21:16. > :21:20.are talking about Switzerland. Britain is the fifth largest economy
:21:21. > :21:25.in the world. If Britain leaves, it could go to the European Union and
:21:26. > :21:29.say, it is in our mutual interest to bring in tariff laws but we are not
:21:30. > :21:34.having free movement of labour. Some sort of compromise could be reached.
:21:35. > :21:39.The UK could try but that would be a dangerous game to play. We're
:21:40. > :21:50.talking about least worst options. Why are we talking about the least
:21:51. > :21:59.worst option? Australia's brother up consistently. Academics at the
:22:00. > :22:01.University of Sydney say a points -based system would not reduced the
:22:02. > :22:08.numbers of people you were bringing in. European immigration, immigrants
:22:09. > :22:12.from the rest of the EU into the UK, have a net contribution to the
:22:13. > :22:18.economy of ?2 million per year. One in four NHS doctors was not born in
:22:19. > :22:21.the UK. 14% of all clinical staff. If you are an EU migrants into the
:22:22. > :22:25.UK, you are more likely to add a university degree than if you are
:22:26. > :22:31.born here. The benefits migration is brought to the UK are massive. There
:22:32. > :22:35.are economic benefits, social and cultural benefits. We need to stand
:22:36. > :22:39.up for that. One of the tragedies of this campaign has been the way the
:22:40. > :22:44.Leave campaign have used the referendum to divide people. The
:22:45. > :22:49.racist dogma. The breaking point poster from Nigel Farage that
:22:50. > :22:58.mirrored a natty propaganda poster from the 1930s. -- Nazi. Do either
:22:59. > :23:04.of you approve of what Nigel Farage has been up to? I am not a big
:23:05. > :23:08.far-right supporter. Immigrants played a key part in the NHS.
:23:09. > :23:14.Doctors from India. Nurses and doctors from the Commonwealth. The
:23:15. > :23:17.Caribbean. They played a major part. We want them to still play a major
:23:18. > :23:23.part. What you have done is ring deferred EU nationals, we can buy
:23:24. > :23:30.those people in, we can get talent from all over the world and not
:23:31. > :23:37.restricted. Immigration from outside the EU is
:23:38. > :23:41.higher than it is from inside. It will not matter if more than half of
:23:42. > :23:49.the immigrants each year come from outside the European Union. We need,
:23:50. > :23:55.especially Scotland, we need the skills of immigrants coming in and
:23:56. > :24:01.helping us. What we need is a fair playing. The EU has rigged the
:24:02. > :24:05.playing field against our interests and caused the problem. That is why
:24:06. > :24:08.playing field against our interests your campaign made immigration a
:24:09. > :24:19.major platform of the renegotiation. Why did you do that? Ross Thomson is
:24:20. > :24:25.far too polite. I want to associate myself with the comments made by
:24:26. > :24:29.Ross about immigration and its benefits. In my own region, the
:24:30. > :24:30.north-east of Scotland, we have a situation where we have a chronic
:24:31. > :24:34.shortage of teachers. I have written situation where we have a chronic
:24:35. > :24:41.to John Swinney and I'm still waiting to hear back. Also in health
:24:42. > :24:44.and social care. One skilled labour is prioritised over those who have
:24:45. > :24:50.skills from other parts of the world. There are people who can come
:24:51. > :24:52.over and do the job. A fruit picker from Poland is given priority over
:24:53. > :25:01.someone who has been a qualified teacher. It is the principle of
:25:02. > :25:14.actually having control. We have zero control right now. It is a
:25:15. > :25:18.Conservative government. We have zero control over EU migration.
:25:19. > :25:24.Everyone will accept that. We have zero control over EU migration. We
:25:25. > :25:28.have the option if we vote Leave to take back control of our borders. We
:25:29. > :25:36.can match up those with skills to the demands in the jobs market. We
:25:37. > :25:49.have swathes of people coming in to the UK. Your government has taken
:25:50. > :25:53.steps... Can you reply? If you have got these skills gaps, you have got
:25:54. > :25:58.people outside the EU, why not recruit from outside the EU? This
:25:59. > :26:01.comes back to immigration. It comes back to the Conservative government
:26:02. > :26:08.policies of trying to cut immigration. The post-work-study
:26:09. > :26:14.Visa, for example. You have got people who have got skills, coming
:26:15. > :26:26.to study here. They let them stay in this country. To say that the Leave
:26:27. > :26:31.campaign... That is utter nonsense. The Royal College of Nursing this
:26:32. > :26:35.week said we were 2000 nurses short in Scotland. The EIS said that
:26:36. > :26:38.teachers are doing one third more than their hours. That is because of
:26:39. > :26:46.your administration's failure to fund enough people. There was a
:26:47. > :26:50.little gap there which I'm going to use as an opportunity to go on and
:26:51. > :26:56.talk about the economy. That is the other big issue. Ross Thomson, every
:26:57. > :27:02.major international organisation with any respect, says that leaving
:27:03. > :27:08.the EU economically for Britain would be somewhere between very bad
:27:09. > :27:16.and disastrous. To which the league campaign can produce what? I speak
:27:17. > :27:20.to people on a daily basis who are in business. Coming back to the
:27:21. > :27:30.north-east of Scotland, we have a higher rate of entrepreneurs. We
:27:31. > :27:35.feel that... Those companies who can pay, the people really impacted are
:27:36. > :27:40.the small and medium-sized businesses. Particularly those
:27:41. > :27:45.trying to diversify and get away from the corporations. For those who
:27:46. > :27:48.are trying to start up their business, the EU regulation you have
:27:49. > :27:53.to go through and jump through just to get something is painful. I
:27:54. > :27:58.appreciate some small-business people do think that. But what I am
:27:59. > :28:10.asking you is, I will not go through the list, the Institute of fiscal
:28:11. > :28:14.studies, the Treasury, the IMF, the Economist, all coming out and saying
:28:15. > :28:21.this would be a very bad thing to do. It is all very well saying they
:28:22. > :28:25.are all supporters of. Where are the international organisations which
:28:26. > :28:30.say, they are wrong. Coming out of the EU would be brilliant for the
:28:31. > :28:33.British economy. A lot of these international organisations have a
:28:34. > :28:36.vested interest. That is why it is great for the first time that people
:28:37. > :28:42.like myself were never had a say in Europe by getting this decision.
:28:43. > :28:45.Where are the international organisation to say, coming out
:28:46. > :28:53.would benefit the UK economy? Name me one. The businesses operating in
:28:54. > :28:58.the UK, those struggling with 100% of the red tape from Brussels, will
:28:59. > :29:02.benefit. I admire your ability to believe that the feelings of
:29:03. > :29:09.individuals Trump economics. But the fact is that smacked the fact is
:29:10. > :29:19.they do not. A lot of figures are getting thrown at you. This is a
:29:20. > :29:22.fundamental decision. You are studiously avoiding answering. Why
:29:23. > :29:29.is there not one single respected economic organisation, international
:29:30. > :29:37.or domestic, which is saying, no. Breaks it would be good for the UK
:29:38. > :29:41.economy. -- Brexit. Why is every world leader saying it would be bad
:29:42. > :29:45.for the British economy and it would be bad for the international order
:29:46. > :29:51.for Britain to leave. Where are the good people on your side? This is
:29:52. > :29:55.the establishment. This is what has been fundamental about this
:29:56. > :29:58.campaign. The reason you have seen energised -- people being energised.
:29:59. > :30:04.People are being set up being told what is best for them by former
:30:05. > :30:06.political leaders, Prahran -- current political leaders, people
:30:07. > :30:10.who are totally unaffected. The people affected are those on the
:30:11. > :30:13.ground, those working hard in their communities every single day. They
:30:14. > :30:18.are the ones who will feel the impact. Sub Barack Obama is wrong?
:30:19. > :30:26.He's entitled to his view. Just as he was in the referendum on
:30:27. > :30:33.independence. It is a decision for the people of the UK.
:30:34. > :30:38.Congress said this week that we would be at the front of any queue
:30:39. > :30:42.and the people who run Congress said that they would want us to be at the
:30:43. > :30:46.front of the queue. Taking your question about the Economist, they
:30:47. > :30:49.front of the queue. Taking your are not generally the people who
:30:50. > :30:53.make the money. The people who do other manufacturers, like JVC,
:30:54. > :31:05.Dyson, people like that... Hang on. other manufacturers, like JVC,
:31:06. > :31:10.What is the chain of pubs? Weatherspoon is. Once we have JCB
:31:11. > :31:13.and Wetherspoon is, namely one other leading British company that agrees
:31:14. > :31:21.with you. Those companies are amongst our most successful is. I
:31:22. > :31:26.was talking about Weatherspoon is. I was talking about the household
:31:27. > :31:30.name, the most successful manufacturers worldwide. JCB and
:31:31. > :31:35.bison. Let's look at the Economist is, they were unanimous that Britain
:31:36. > :31:40.had to join the euro and many of the manufacturers who are on the side of
:31:41. > :31:45.the Remain campaign, that would've been a disaster for us. The same
:31:46. > :31:48.economists were saying the same when Denmark said it wasn't going to join
:31:49. > :31:52.the euro. They said that a hundred million would be wiped off the
:31:53. > :31:59.German stock market. The day after they voted to reject the euro in
:32:00. > :32:04.front of 1.5%. I would rather talk about what ordinary people want.
:32:05. > :32:10.Business has a part to play but I don't think everything hinges on
:32:11. > :32:16.that. Just for clarity. The point is, I don't think Nigel Ross are
:32:17. > :32:24.saying it is what the business says that matters, the point is that it
:32:25. > :32:28.is ordinary people. If businesses leave Britain because of us leaving
:32:29. > :32:36.the EU or whatever, it is ordinary people who are affect did. It is.
:32:37. > :32:41.There is a reason that the largest institution to represent ordinary
:32:42. > :32:46.people, people like the Trades Union Congress are coming out in favour.
:32:47. > :32:50.What is your apply to the point that other experts have got it wrong
:32:51. > :32:59.before. Nigel has an amazing ability to rewrite history when he talks
:33:00. > :33:04.about all economists. I think we delve and quite far in the history
:33:05. > :33:09.there the point is that you can find experts on both sides, people who
:33:10. > :33:15.are qualified to talk on both sides. experts on both sides, people who
:33:16. > :33:17.The red tape that is strangling business, that is protections.
:33:18. > :33:20.Health and safety regulations that has reduced work less deaths in the
:33:21. > :33:26.UK by two thirds. Working Time that has reduced work less deaths in the
:33:27. > :33:34.stop exploitation. They guaranteed equal pay for equal work, guaranteed
:33:35. > :33:39.maternity leave. If it has cleaned up environmental legislation. The EU
:33:40. > :33:44.has benefited our environment, workers, women, our communities.
:33:45. > :33:47.Ross is right to say that the workers, women, our communities.
:33:48. > :33:51.business has too much of a stranglehold on the EU which is why
:33:52. > :33:59.I huge number of us are fighting against that influence, against
:34:00. > :34:02.Craig feels like TTIP. Could you can't specifically the point that
:34:03. > :34:08.Nigel Griffiths makes about experts, his argument that these people, and
:34:09. > :34:14.he forgot to mention the financial crash... You will always find
:34:15. > :34:18.somebody you can say they agree with this or that and to say that
:34:19. > :34:23.everybody thought which join the euro is absolutely not true. There
:34:24. > :34:27.was a range of opinion on that and the majority opinion was that we
:34:28. > :34:29.wouldn't, and that is what happened. The key issue is what will happen
:34:30. > :34:43.with the economy if the UK was to The key issue is what will happen
:34:44. > :34:47.leave the EU. The biggest economy in the world therefore everything will
:34:48. > :34:51.be OK, that is not the reality of what will happen. It will be a very
:34:52. > :34:59.difficult environment and you will have to go back and re-negotiate
:35:00. > :35:06.those fields. It is the... The problem will not be importing goods
:35:07. > :35:13.from abroad. The problem will be only tried to export services. Other
:35:14. > :35:19.countries within the EU will be happy to put tariffs on those that
:35:20. > :35:22.is where it will us. It is a difficult situation. Looking at the
:35:23. > :35:27.negotiations that will have to happen across the world to remove
:35:28. > :35:34.tariff barriers it is a long, tortuous process that takes years.
:35:35. > :35:43.Canada, ten years. All of those negations take a long time. Right
:35:44. > :35:48.across the world. Switzerland has more trade deals than the EU has
:35:49. > :35:53.got! Very successful ones. I don't think so. At the end of the day you
:35:54. > :35:58.have big trading blocs negotiating with each other and that is where
:35:59. > :36:02.the power lies. If you are to negotiate as a country of 60 million
:36:03. > :36:05.people for the whole of the youth, you'll get a better drill as part of
:36:06. > :36:11.the trading block because the other trading blocs want to sell on to the
:36:12. > :36:15.EU. Companies making decisions on where you are going to invest, they
:36:16. > :36:19.will take one look at the fact that the UK is outside of the EU and they
:36:20. > :36:23.will place investment elsewhere. That will lead to a fairly quick
:36:24. > :36:32.decline in inward investment into this country which will be a
:36:33. > :36:36.disaster. Would you accept that some of the claims about the economy at
:36:37. > :36:42.least by the Remain side have been somewhat exaggerated. You have just
:36:43. > :36:48.explained why it might be difficult for trade deals. The idea that we
:36:49. > :36:54.will be in a recession, an emergency budget to cut public spending. I am
:36:55. > :36:58.not going to come on here and defend George Osborne and through numbers
:36:59. > :37:06.about. He thinks some of that has been invited to -- some of it has
:37:07. > :37:11.been exaggerated? People will do a projection on something, the stellar
:37:12. > :37:17.time to a number that they hope voters will relate to. You can argue
:37:18. > :37:21.with that number of ?5,000 or whatever, the reality is that there
:37:22. > :37:24.will be significant issues in the economy because of inward
:37:25. > :37:29.investment, because of the difficulty of putting in place to
:37:30. > :37:33.deals and the fact that the will be negotiating globally as a much
:37:34. > :37:37.smaller entity. What number you want to put on it you can debate, but the
:37:38. > :37:41.reality is it will be a much more difficult position going forward.
:37:42. > :37:46.Let's move on to the other big issue, which has come up in this,
:37:47. > :37:51.sovereignty. The claim from your issue, which has come up in this,
:37:52. > :37:55.side is that in some sense the EU is undemocratic, but we have heard over
:37:56. > :37:59.and over again that we are run by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.
:38:00. > :38:06.He would concede that that simply is not true? The unelected bureaucrats
:38:07. > :38:10.in Brussels can initiate legislation by assets unless it is approved by
:38:11. > :38:20.the governments in the European Union? They drive it through. The
:38:21. > :38:34.difference between electing eight MSP... It is done by an elite of
:38:35. > :38:37.people. We cannot have people defending the institution of
:38:38. > :38:42.Westminster were unelected members of the House of Lords today moaning
:38:43. > :38:50.about unelected EU bureaucrats are not seeing the irony! If we look at
:38:51. > :38:54.the issue of sovereignty Harold Wilson 40 years ago said that
:38:55. > :38:58.Britain would lose no sovereignty of the joined the EU. Since then we
:38:59. > :39:06.have had a parliament, a legislature, judiciary, we have had
:39:07. > :39:10.a president, we have even got a seat on the United Nations as well as a
:39:11. > :39:15.flag and an amp stop if it quacks like a duck it is a duck. All of
:39:16. > :39:18.this has been done with the approval of the British government. And it is
:39:19. > :39:28.only eroded our sovereignty. Yes, but it has been done with the
:39:29. > :39:31.approval of the British government. The British government had a right
:39:32. > :39:38.at any point with any of the things you mentioned the say no. People
:39:39. > :39:46.regret passing over that sovereignty and making the European court of
:39:47. > :39:51.just as... But that's not the point. Somehow Dewar's Centre the operation
:39:52. > :39:54.of the EU is undemocratic, the point I'm saying is that bureaucrats may
:39:55. > :39:57.be able to initiate legislation but by and at every point in the past
:39:58. > :40:03.the British government has had to agree what has been proposed. Or be
:40:04. > :40:10.overridden. By a qualified majority vote. But not by bureaucrats. You
:40:11. > :40:15.make my point that the bureaucrats and the other governments have
:40:16. > :40:22.decided something... Queue are deliberately mixing it up there.
:40:23. > :40:27.Sovereignty is about the British people being able to vote for the
:40:28. > :40:35.parliament to take decisions. We are part of Nato and if Vladimir Putin
:40:36. > :40:41.attacks Turkey we would be committed under Nato treaties to going to war
:40:42. > :40:48.against Russia. To defending our Nato allies. You are talking about
:40:49. > :40:52.democracy. My point is that sovereignty is piloted in the modern
:40:53. > :40:57.world is, much more diligent in that commitment to Nato than it is in the
:40:58. > :41:03.EU, we are committed to going to war, for goodness sake! On
:41:04. > :41:06.everything to do with Brussels it is initiated by the bureaucrats and
:41:07. > :41:12.these are a range of expat ministers and others. There is a ratification
:41:13. > :41:25.process but it is on a ticket or leave it basis. It is a fundamental
:41:26. > :41:28.misunderstanding of how it works. The governments come together to
:41:29. > :41:34.share and work together on issues important to them and the mechanism
:41:35. > :41:37.high they do that or in which individual governments of the member
:41:38. > :41:40.states have an imperative that is through the appointment they make in
:41:41. > :41:55.the Council of ministers and the commission. .
:41:56. > :42:01.When we voted to join it was a Common Market, neither is a
:42:02. > :42:09.political construct. But we have approved as the British people...
:42:10. > :42:13.Governments and prime ministers have signed away powers to the EU. That
:42:14. > :42:18.is why we need to have this referendum. There is a generation of
:42:19. > :42:23.people like yourself who have never had a say on Europe and the power
:42:24. > :42:30.centre it. It takes over on areas of social policy. That is not the
:42:31. > :42:33.Common Market any more. I think there are a number of people even
:42:34. > :42:38.sitting around this table that have never had a say on this. You knew
:42:39. > :42:42.that they talking about sovereignty in the modern world. The countries
:42:43. > :42:47.in the world that are the most soft and hard once most isolated. The
:42:48. > :42:52.most often country in the world as North Korea. The point is that that
:42:53. > :42:55.we pulled together sovereignty because there are some issues we can
:42:56. > :42:58.only take on together. Climate change can only be solved by
:42:59. > :43:06.collective action. The refugee crisis will not stop affecting us
:43:07. > :43:13.believe the EU. What about the point that even if you concede that this
:43:14. > :43:17.is not undemocratic, it is a form of democracy that is so attenuated that
:43:18. > :43:21.it doesn't mean anything to people. Which is why the Greens in the
:43:22. > :43:22.European Parliament have been campaigning for reforms, and we have
:43:23. > :43:31.European Parliament have been one reforms. Europe is a constantly
:43:32. > :43:36.evolving set of institutions. Nobody in this country relates to it. We
:43:37. > :43:41.are having a referendum to decide whether or not we want to be part of
:43:42. > :43:51.the European peace project. Very briefly, one sentence. I think we
:43:52. > :43:53.will vote tomorrow to leave the EU. That is all we have time for this
:43:54. > :43:54.afternoon. Do join us at the weekend
:43:55. > :43:57.for Sunday Politics Scotland. As the counts
:43:58. > :44:12.come in from across the UK, we'll be here to discuss
:44:13. > :44:15.the outcome, keeping you updated throughout the night until the very
:44:16. > :44:19.last set of votes is declared.